Pacific Islands Marine Monument Rollback and Court Reversal Explained

Pacific Islands Heritage Marine National Monument: For over a decade, these waters stood as one of the largest no-take zones on Earth, safeguarding corals, fish, and migratory species. But on day one of his presidency, Donald Trump erased the U.S. commitment to 30x30 and soon after issued Proclamation 10918, opening parts of the monument to commercial fishing.

Marine conservation at risk: The rollback sparked lawsuits and reignited the debate over whether U.S. marine protections are too vulnerable to political swings. Just two weeks ago, a court overturned Trump’s proclamation on a technicality, reclosing the area to fishing. In this episode, we break down what happened, what’s at stake, and how the U.S. can rebuild trust in its marine conservation commitments.

The future of 30x30: We explore the tension between conservation science, fishing industry pressure, and fragile presidential protections. The conversation highlights why codifying protections into law may be the only way forward to safeguard biodiversity hotspots like Wake, Johnston, and Jarvis.

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
On today's
episode we're
gonna be finding
out what the hell
is going on with
the Pacific
Islands Heritage
Marine National
Monument
in the US
In the Pacific
Islands. This is
something that
has been
unprecedented
It's been
protected for
over 10 years and
all of a sudden
on day one of his
presidency
Donald Trump
opened it up for
fishing because
he wanted the
United States to
be number one in
fishing in
the Pacific
What is that

(00:20):
going to do to
the protected
area to all the
stuff that
happened in the
particular area
when it was
shut down?
Do we even know
if fish grew in
numbers in size
during that
protection?
We need more
science to do
this and Angela
Villa Gomez for
the Center of
American Progress
is here to
talk about
Why we need more
science and
monitoring during
this time and
we're gonna talk
about the core
case that

(00:41):
actually shut
down the
opening of this
Marine National
Monument and
we're gonna talk
about it on
today's episode
of the how to
protect the ocean
podcast. Let's
start the show
Hey everybody,
welcome back to
another exciting
episode of the
how to protect
the ocean podcast
I'm your host
Andrew Lewin and
this is the
podcast where you
find out what's
happening with
the ocean how you
can speak up for
The ocean what
you can do to
live for a better
ocean by taking

(01:01):
action on
today's episode
We are going to
be talking about
the Pacific
Islands Heritage
Marine National
Monument
in the US
This has been
something that
has been around
the news since
day one of the
Donald Trump's presidency
Where he erased
the US commitment
to 30 by 30 the
global goal to
protecting?
30% of land and
sea by 2030 not

(01:22):
long after his
administration
Turned his
attention to the
Pacific Islands
Heritage Marine
National Monument
one of the
largest fully
protected marine
areas in the
world
spanning over
1.3 square miles
of protected area
for a decade
These waters had
been off-limits
to commercial
fishing serving
as a sanctuary
for corals
pelagic fish and
countless
migratory species
But on April 17

(01:43):
2025 Trump issued
a proclamation
109
108 declaring
that commercial
fishing in the
monuments
expansion area
posed no risk to
scientific or
historical objects
This opened the
door for fishing
between 50 and
200 nautical
miles
around Wacotl
Johnson atoll and
Jarvis Island
waters that had
once been
completely
protected the

(02:04):
proclamation
Directed Noah and
the Western
Pacific fishery
management
council to
rewrite the rules
weighing options
from keeping
Protections in
place to removing
them entirely
It was the first
day and only
rollback of
marine protection
under Trump and
it sparked
immediate
lawsuits from
conservation
groups
Then just two
weeks ago the
court struck down

(02:25):
Trump's
proclamation on a
technicality
Reclosing the
monument to
fishing at least
for now the case
highlights
How fragile these
protections can
be when created
by presidential
proclamation
instead of
legislation and
it raises larger
concerns
What does this
mean for the US
commitment
to 30 by 30?
How much power
should presidents
have to undo

(02:45):
decades of
conservation
progress and what
happens to the
fish corals and
communities that
depend on
these waters?
Today we are
going to explore
the politics
science and the
future of marine
protection in the
Pacific Islands
Heritage Marine
National Monument
by speaking to
Angela Villa
Gomez a good
Friend of the
podcast and
myself who's from
the Center of
American Progress
in Washington DC

(03:05):
He's gonna be
talking about the
US monument
He's gonna be
talking about how
important it is
and why we need
to find out more
about just
getting science
data and
understanding
What has happened
over the last 10
years with the
expansion of the
monument and how
that's helped or
maybe not helped
fish in general
for growing in
number and size
and we're
gonna just
discuss a lot of

(03:25):
the things that
are happening in
the US and how
that could be a
distraction
because there's
so much
going on and
How it could be a
distraction to
making sure that
this marine
protected area
stays closed
So we're gonna
talk all that in
this episode.
Here's the
interview with
Angelo Villa
Gomez enjoy and I
will talk to you
after hey Angelo
Welcome back to
the how to
protect the ocean
podcast. Are you
ready to talk
about marine
sanctuaries? I am

(03:46):
It's been a hot
minute since I
saw you. I think
the last time we
talked we were
both in France
together
Yes, the UN ocean
conference.
That's right, and
we were actually
jumping
into the water
That's right. We
did not win. No
because we were
we were
participating
in the
the manu the
international
manu competition
which is

(04:07):
manu is a
Polynesian word
of jumping into
the ocean means
bird, but it's a
style of jumping
in the ocean and
New Zealand and
you and I are not
from New Zealand
No, and we you
were the Canadian
purchase was I
was I was the
American
participant
And we did not
win. It was a
good time. We've been

(04:27):
times had life
It was it I mean
you're you were
jumping off like
it wasn't
too high
You were much
braver than than
the rest of us
were by just
jumping off that
first cliff
wasn't that high
Beautiful water
nice and
refreshing
It was nice to do
it at a
conference where
we get to have
some fun as well
and it was
great people
So that was that
was a lot of fun.
But like
let's talk
Before we start

(04:48):
this the way you
jump in you got
to go like butt
first like first
Yeah, that's the
the biggest
splash. Yeah, so
when I was
growing
up as a kid
I thought a
cannonball right
was the been
slow, right?
So you sort of
like you tuck in
with hands and
then boom you hit
the water
and splash
We've done it
wrong our
entire lives
But foods the
best splash is

(05:10):
achieved by
putting your
derriere into the
water first
Which is not that
easy, right?
Like you got to
get a jump
in the air
So like there's
you know, you
gotta get some
lift and some
distance and then
flip your legs
out in front of
you and land
Yeah
But first and not
on your back
because that
would hurt even
more, you know,
but so you got to
like be

(05:30):
pretty good
It takes some
practice. I did
not practice. I
was not good. I
did one thing and
I'm like, I'm out
I gotta go but
that was that was
a lot of fun, but
we're not here to
talk about that
Although that was
very fun. We
should probably
we could probably
do an entire
episode on that
We are here to
talk about a
marine protected
areas in
particular a
marine sanctuary
called the
Pacific Island
Heritage Marine

(05:51):
National Monument
Quite quite a
title, but also
it represents a
lot. So Angela
before we get
started with that
Can you just tell
me just remind
the audience who
you are and
what you do?
My name is
Angelo. I live in
Washington DC
work for an
organization
called Center for
Marine Center for
American Progress

(06:12):
And I'm an ocean
advocate and I
was actually at
the designation
at the very
beginning of the
Pacific Islands
Heritage Marine
National Monument
I went to the
White House and I
was an advocate
for Mariana
Trench Marine
National Monument
Right the
president George
W Bush in his
last two
weeks office
designated three

(06:33):
large protected
areas out in the
Pacific Ocean
In US waters and
I got to watch
him sign the
piece of paper
that actually
created this big
protected area
and it is the US
has a number of
different islands
out in
the Pacific
Everyone's heard
of Hawaii
We also have Guam
the Northern

(06:53):
Mariana Islands
American Samoa,
but there's also
this series of
seven
uninhabited islands
And they're they're
collectively
called the
Pacific remote
islands area
and it's like
wake at
all Jarvis
Palmyra Kingman
at all and
President Bush
created a marine

(07:14):
protected air
very large marine
protected area
around all seven
of these islands
that they're not
contiguous
And so it was
like five
different big
squares out in
the middle of the
ocean, right?
And then a few
years later we
had a new
president. Barack
Obama was
president and he
made three of
those five
big squares into
giant circles

(07:34):
They initially
went out from
shore to 50 miles
and he extended
them out to 200
miles.
Okay, and then
President Trump
Donald Donald J.
Trump came into
the White
House and
He's threatened
all of America's
public lands and
waters. He said
we're going to
drill baby drill

(07:56):
We're gonna mine
the deep sea
and the first
Action that he
took against
public lands and
waters was to
open up a big
chunk of this
protected
area to fishing
when Obama
Expanded it he
expanded it to
1.3 million
square kilometers

(08:16):
And Trump opened
up about a
million of that
to fishing. So
more than half
this is
this is yeah
One million out
of 1.3. So 1.3.
Sorry those
talking about
1.8. Yeah,
yeah, yeah
7080% yeah, so
that was back in

(08:36):
April and
the
Government office
in Hawaii, not
Noah they issued
a letter to all
the fishermen
Permit holders
and said you can
now fish in this
protected area
And almost
immediately a
whole bunch of
boats like 10 or
20 went into the
protected area
and you can go to
global
fishing watch

(08:57):
Dot-com and you
can you know put
in the right
parameters
zoom in
Find the right
dates and you can
see those fishing
vessels. Yeah,
they're in there
and they're
catching tuna
They're based in
Hawaii going down
to the
protected area
Which is a couple
thought like
maybe a thousand
miles away and
then going back
up to Hawaii and
offloading
their fish

(09:18):
The conservation
community was not
happy about
this, right?
And the Trump
administration
was sued by
several groups in
Hawaii. The
lawsuit was filed
by Earth Justice
Which is a great
organization
and
about two
weeks ago
Earth the courts
decided that the
Trump
administration
had
broken the law

(09:39):
When they used
that letter to
open this area up
to fishing
Because America
is still a
country of laws
and we have a
fisheries law
called
Magnuson Stevens
And the the Trump
administration
had not followed
the letter
of the law
So the judge
closed the area
to fishing again.
So it was opened
up in April shut

(10:00):
down a couple of
weeks ago
and
now
There the fishing
interests are
Trying to get
that process
going that you
know that legal
government
process that
could open this
area to fishing
and we're seeing
that happening
in real time
That's a lot that

(10:20):
happened in such
a short time, you
know, like you
know where
you know Donald
Trump President
Donald Trump
takes away the
Or opens it up
for fishing
So what's the
reasoning that he
used behind
opening it up? Is
it more of like
the drill
baby bill?
We're gonna fish
everything. We
want to be the
biggest fisheries

(10:40):
in a country
Yeah, that's that's ultimate.
That's ultimately
what it comes
down to. Yeah, is
that we're going
to we're gonna
have energy
dominance
We're gonna have
fisheries
dominance. We're
gonna fish
everywhere
We're gonna have
the
greatest economy
What it's just
it's very
short-sighted
the United
States has had

(11:00):
Protected lands
and waters for
the last hundred
and fifty years
when our first
national parks
were protected
And we this
country can
absolutely have
the best managed
fisheries in the
world and
the best network
of
protected areas
And and the goals
of sustainable
fishing and of

(11:21):
habitat
management or
hand habitat
protection
Are not the same,
you know that
when you are
advocating for
sustainable
fishing
What your
ultimate goal is
to do, you know,
I mean it's much
more complicated
than this
Yeah, you want
you want to get
to a place where
you have?
Sustainable
fishing. Yeah,
where the the
number of fish
being taken out
are being
replaced

(11:41):
every year
So that you're
you have a steady
catch in
fishermen can
have jobs and
there's fish on
people's plates
But the goals of
conservation are
often not the
same, you
know, they're
sustainable
fishing is not a
net zero or
it's not a

(12:03):
Environmentally
neutral activity
on there still
are outcomes to
it. There's
bycatch. Yep
The fish do die
So, you know,
there's changes
in the fisheries
assemblage. Usually
you'll see
Maybe the
sometimes the
fish populations
will go down. But
sometimes the
fishes of the
sizes
smaller and again
You know, this is
different
depending on the

(12:23):
stock. So of
course, yeah, I
just paint with a
broad brush for
everything,
right?
But we can have
fisheries and
protected areas
and for the last
20 years
it's worked
The way the
United States
manages its tuna
fisheries in
the Pacific
For the boats in
Hawaii is
with a quota

(12:43):
And that quota
was I think three
thousand five
hundred tons. It
was recently
increased to
seven
thousand tons
Just this year. I
Think last year
before it was
increased
doubled. Okay
They've never had
an issue reaching
the quota, right?
You know this
they've it's not
like there's fish

(13:04):
that are being
left
uncaught, right?
It's the the the
fleet has
operated and is
very successful
Yeah, and we've
had these
protected areas
at the same
time, right?
So with it the
idea is saying
hey look we the
cash per unit
effort hasn't
really changed
They're able to
meet their quota
They're able to
even to double it
and there and the
fisheries
population so far

(13:24):
the tuna
population
is fine
Because it's well
managed because
there's marine
protected areas
because of this
we're looking at
what how many
years when was it
designated?
2000 Expanded in 15 so
it's been
The area that's
open has been
closed for like a
decade. Yeah

(13:45):
And you know, I'm
glad you asked
that question
because you know,
one of the
reasons I wanted
to talk to you
Is because this
area had been
closed to fishing
for 10 years.
Yeah, and then it
was opened from
April to
August and
Fish were caught
and I want to see
that data. Yeah
for sure because
It doesn't have
to be me but I

(14:05):
want like
scientists who I
trust to
see that data
Yeah, I'm gonna
and I could
actually this
could be a great
collaboration
between MPA
scientists and
fishery
scientists
Because what the
fisheries
scientist what
the fisheries
folks are saying
is that these
protected areas
have had no
benefit to
the fishery
You know, they've
they've been a
complete waste of
time. They've
harmed the
fishermen

(14:26):
But what the MPA
scientists say is
that they've
actually
Led to spillover
effects that you
know in the way
that's been
measured
With studies in
the past
is has been
Fishermen are
fishing the line.
Yeah right on
there saying
By fishing the
line that's
evidence that the

(14:46):
fishermen know
that there's more
fish inside the
protected area
and fishermen are
brilliant
smart people
Yeah, dedicate
their entire
lives to catching
fish. They know
how to catch
fish. They know
the best ways to
catch fish
They know how to
catch it as fast
as possible
So that they can
make as much
money as possible
So I like it when
fishermen are
going to the
borders of marine
protected areas.
It's because they
know something
Yeah, like it's
not it's not

(15:07):
random. Yeah
But with this
fisheries data
that we have for
these
couple of months
Can we look at
the catch per
unit effort?
You know, how
many hooks were
dropped in the
water and how
many fish were on
the line?
And how long did
they soak those
hooks in the
water to catch
those fish?
I think that's
actually pretty
easy to capture

(15:28):
and the NOAA used
to put all that
data on
their website
But the last
couple years it
hasn't been there
I'd also be
interested in
looking at the
sizes of the fish
that may be a
little bit more
difficult
But when those
fish are
offloaded in
Hawaii and you
can actually go
to this port
It's like the
coolest thing in
the world
It's one of the
the oldest

(15:48):
biggest ports for
fish in the
United States and
as the fish come
off the boat
Every single one
of them
gets a barcode
So they have some
of the like this
amazing data on
like literally
individual fish
for going
back to it
Like and with
that they'll get
like size and
length. Yeah.
Yeah all this
where it was
caught. Yeah
Incredible data

(16:08):
and then each one
of those fish
gets
auctioned off
And then you know
gets into Japan
it gets into the
mainland it gets
eaten in Hawaii.
Yeah, whatnot
You know one
reason that each
of those fish get
a barcode by the
way is because
they're each fish
is but as
valuable as a
iPhone yeah,
yeah, they're
like thousands.
Yes big tuna that

(16:28):
go for a
thousand bucks
That most high
quality fish are
going for real
high the bycatch
is going for
really for
a lot less
And then like
this could
actually be a
really
important moment
for understanding
Marine protected
areas with a
highly migratory
species,
right? Yeah
um, and you know,
there's the UN

(16:49):
General Assembly
is happening in
September and
There's hope that
enough countries
will ratify this
high seas
agreement
And there's gonna
be this push for
marine protected
areas on on the
high seas
And this is
fisheries data.
This is not
modeling. This is
not actually
This is I have

(17:10):
the number of
fish that were
caught. I know
where it was
caught. I know
how big they are
Will this prove
that this MPA has
worked it's been
10 years. Yeah
And you know,
I'll give you
this like on the
flip side. What
if we're wrong?
Mm-hmm, you know
that that's also
important
If if there's
been no change in

(17:31):
the catch per
unit effort if
there's been no
change in the
size of the fish
Has this marine
protected area
actually been
effective? I
mean, that's it.
That's the big
that's the big
question
And that's what
science is for
right? It's so
it's you prove
that whether it
is or not
Has it been
effective
basically if this
fish have grown
on average, you
know,
they're bigger
They're they're
they're longer.

(17:51):
They're they
weigh more
Ideally because
they haven't been
touched in 10
years. So
they've had a
Population growth
and that's the
beauty about fish
is that you can
see that that
difference pretty
quickly and we've
seen that
in other
MPAs this one
that would be
probably the
first in the
Pacific where we
have this kind of
long-term study
Did they have
information on
that like because
Noah has always

(18:12):
been good with
information and
sharing
information
Do they have
information on
those
fish before?
This MPa went in
before fishing.
There is yeah,
there it used to
all be online. I
don't know if it
still is right
But the data is
there somewhere
Yeah, this part
of the Pacific is
called the
Pacific remote
islands area.
Yeah, and then
the long

(18:32):
line data
That was online.
It used to be
broken up.
There's the main
Hawaiian Islands.
There's the
Northwest
Hawaiian Islands
There's the
Pacific remote
islands area and
then there's the
high seas
and so it's
actually it's
really
interesting to go
into that data
and you know and
see the ebb
and flow of
You know, what
are they
catching? How
many sharks are
they catching?
What's your bike
edge? Yeah, and

(18:52):
I'd like I'm
pretty
sure there's
20 30 years of
that data
That that one
could look at so
yeah, it's really
incredible. You
can look at the
fisheries
data before
You know, there's
no fisheries data
while it's
protected right
then we've got
these couple of
months. Yeah
You know and
again, you know,
it's a small
small chunk.
Yeah.
Yeah for sure

(19:12):
You know, there's
these fish may be
seasonal,
you know
What was the
water temperature
or is it an El
Nino year? Like,
you know, there's
a lot of there's
a lot of
variables there
But there's
something yeah
There's also
Some social
science that
could be done,
you know before
the opening
There were a lot

(19:32):
of claims that
there would be
social and health
benefits for
American Samoa
There there's a
cannery there
and
You know one of
the arguments for
opening it is
that you know
opening up these
areas to fishing
would support the
American Samoan
Economy and the
community

(19:53):
And I'm not a
social scientist
right but there
are social
scientists who
may have ideas on
How do we how do
we study this? I
mean, can we do
interviews? Can
we look at some
of the
economic data?
When it was
opened was more
fish delivered to
the cannery?
And again, you know
complicated yeah

(20:13):
There's there's
these tariffs
You may have
heard of in the I
haven't heard
yeah, not much
about it.
Yeah, yeah
It's possible
that these
tariffs are more
influential than
like the
actual fishing
And again, I'm
not an economist,
but you know,
there are people
who can
study this
But I recently
had a short piece

(20:33):
appear in nature
The Journal of
Nature by the
way, okay guys,
that's huge. Like
that's a big
that's a big
that's a
big paper
I
collaborated with
two of the MPa
guide scientists,
dr. Kirsten and
dr. Jenna
and then
Dr. Steven who's
one of my
collaborators

(20:54):
collaborators on
many projects.
He's from Saipan
Yeah, he's native
Hawaiian and he's
now a professor
at Cornell
And that was
basically just
our claim is like
hey, you know,
we're scientists.
Let's go science
Yeah now now with
this like who do
you like?
normally
It'd be Noah that
would gather this
data right and

(21:15):
they would put
out technical
reports and so
forth and then
they would
look at that
So I guess the
first question is
how has
there been?
Has has have
researchers been
allowed in there
to look at the
stock while it
was closed down?
Because sometimes
they're allowed
and sometimes
they're not.
Yeah, no
there was um
There has been
some research

(21:35):
fish fishing
And I like even
this year there
was a permit that
was submitted to
do some research
fishing inside
The protected
area. So there is
some stuff
out there
Yeah
Just to look at
that size as it's
kind of grown
over the 10 years
or if they've
grown over that
over that
10 years
The other
question is like
since no one
normally
does this
Is there a worry

(21:57):
that like like
has the
government ever
said that they're
gonna look at
this data like
like the
government now?
Like that's in
that's in
power. So
the short
answer is
Like we're
in trouble
Something like
one in four Noah
employees who
work there in
January no longer
work for the
agency, right?
And then with the

(22:17):
doge cuts
There have just
been cuts all
across the agency
and I have
Numerous friends
and colleagues
who are out of
work. We're not
who no longer
serve in our
government. So
You know, I think
this is
important. I
think this is a
global. I think
this is globally
important
So trying to call
attention to it

(22:38):
The government
has so much
money, you know,
the US government
budget last year
was like six
billion dollars
In philanthropy
just sorry six
trillion
Six trillion
dollars in Noah
Had the

(22:59):
government has
more money than
philanthropy. So
philanthropy
cannot
back end
all of this
but I I
think that
There there
could be some
discrete pieces
that we could
look at and one
of those discrete
pieces that I
would want to say
is how does
that
fisheries data

(23:21):
compare to
Now because like
Science is
happening in real
time. It's
closed again
It's probably
gonna be opened
again, right?
Yeah, we'll talk
about that in
just a second
Even if we get
the you know, get
the plant in
place like we
still need to
study the future
And then I also
think this the
socioeconomic

(23:41):
stuff needs to be
better
understood because
There this is
still a very
controversial
protected area
You know, there
are some folks
who would like to
see it enlarged
There are some
people who are
kind of happy
with what it is
and want to see
the management be
put in place
So people have
very strong
feelings about
this and

(24:02):
there's been
Some social
science work
around the
Mariana trench
monument. Yeah,
there's been a
lot around the
papahana mukuakea
monument
up in Hawaii
But but I think
there's
opportunities for
social scientists
to study this
And it's
complicated
because you know,
this is it kind
of appears
between Hawaii
Mariana's

(24:23):
Micronesia
American Samoa
and it's it's a
public trust
It's not owned by
any one group of
Americans. It's
owned by all of
the Americans
in the
entire country
And I just think
there could be
some greater
understanding
that scientists
could bring to
what's going on
To make
recommendations

(24:43):
on how we move
into the future.
Yeah, I agree
I think it I mean
it'd be a study
of a lifetime
really looking at
that size of an
area closed down
for ten years
Being able to
study it whether
it be a
collaboration of
academics
philanthropists
government
Even for the
government I
would I would
imagine they
would like to see
if this thing
works or not

(25:05):
You know just
from a from a
point of view of
you know
Where is the best
way forward if
you want to be
the top fishing
nation in the
Pacific?
Wouldn't it be
good to have
great fish that's
available
Year after year
after year
instead of having
trouble later on
after your catch
per unit effort
goes down
You know trying
to catch these
fish. So

(25:25):
obviously that's
a that's
a big deal
Let's talk about
I'd like to talk
a little bit
about and we've
talked about this
before when
you've been on
the podcast
But I want to
reiterate this
There's been a
when we go into
the designation
of these marine
sanctuaries,
especially in the
Pacific area
Pacific
Ocean for the US
It's it seems to
always be

(25:45):
designated by a
president. So
George W Bush.
Yeah,
Barack Obama
even the changes
to it has
been done by
You know by by
Donald Trump and
and it seems like
you can just
change on
the whim
You know, it
doesn't seem like
it's a good
long-term plan
You would think
normally
presidents would
really like, you
know at the end
of the George

(26:06):
Bush area
He wasn't a very
environmentally
focused
But my
understanding is
that his wife
really enjoyed
the ocean really
enjoyed
protection of
environment
So that was the
the influence
there and that
was sort of like
his legacy at the
end of that of
his second term
To be able
to do that
Barack Obama did
he do in his
first term or
second term?

(26:27):
Second
second second
So again, like it
seems like more
of a I'm gonna
leave this legacy
of environmental
protection
And and see and
see where that
goes. It seems
like now it's
just more
of a I want
We want the US to
be the best at
everything and
fisheries is
gonna be
another thing
But presidents
can kind of go
back and forth
and whether they
want to either
expand it can
keep it the same

(26:48):
or take away
Some protections
that leaves these
marine
sanctuaries plus
the people that
benefit from
these marine
sanctuaries,
you know
vulnerable
to changes
Is it like is
there a way that
that the laws can
be more stringent
of of being
actually being
changed?

(27:10):
So I wish I could
say it was
unprecedented
that a president
would roll back
and other
presidents
protected areas
But this happened
before under the
first Trump
administration,
right?
But in the United
States is and I
was trying to say
this as
nice as I can
The United States
is in a
transition moment
where the future

(27:31):
of the
United States
Stands on a
precipice of like
we're going to
kind of a
dark place
And this this
relates to our
public lands and
waters. So for
the last
hundred years
And the law that
you're talking
about that the
president uses to
protect lands and
waters
and you know
The Grand Canyon
was protected
with this law

(27:51):
And many other
national
monuments and
national parks
began with this
Antiquities Act
designation and
for most
of history
Presidents did
not overturn
things that other
presidents had
recognized and
these these lands
You know
initially some of
them were just
protected as
scenic landscapes

(28:11):
So that you know,
Ansel Adams could
go and take a
picture of the of
the Grand Canyon
of these
beautiful places
But in the last
century the
reason for
protecting lands
and waters
evolved so it
like some
of our lands
Protect people or
remember people.
Yeah, some of
them Caesar
Shavett is right
Caesar Caesar

(28:32):
Shavett
so that the
farm workers
movement
Civil rights
monuments
protect, you
know, they
remember these
are public lands
that remember the
civil rights
movement
and out in
the Pacific
Indigenous
culture has been
a big part of
these these
monument
designations

(28:52):
so
Presidents kind
of accepted that
we were
protecting for
scenic
landscapes. We
were protecting
for biodiversity
conservation
We were
protecting to
remember
important people
important ideas
important places
and important
moments in our
history and Trump
is kind of the
first person to
come along and
Say now we're not

(29:14):
gonna
remember that
And he's so he's
doing it on
public
lands and waters
But he's also
doing it at the
Smithsonian and
he's doing it on
government
websites
Like one of the
first thing the
New York Times
has this
incredible
article where
they identify
200 words that
the Trump
administration is
scrubbing from
websites and it's
things like
innocuous words

(29:35):
like woman
Mm-hmm
Black, you know,
like completely
erasing the
history gay. Yeah
erasing these
concepts from
like the
The world right?
Yeah, and so it's
it's playing out
in our museums.
It's playing out
in our government
websites
It's playing out
in the way
government
manages itself,
but it's also

(29:55):
playing out
in our public
lands and
waters and
We thought that
our norms would
protect us we
thought because
it was always
done that way
It'll it won't
have it won't
ever happen in
the future and
you know, Bill
Maher has this
great bit that
he's done a
couple of times

(30:16):
About that movie
about the donkey
that kicks field
goals, right?
And you know
because there's
no rule that you
can't have a
donkey on your
football team
The team went on having you know the donkey on the football team
You know air by
the air by the
same thing. Yeah,
there's no rule
that the dog
can't play
basketball
And that's kind

(30:37):
of where we are
with Trump is
like he is just
rolling back
these things
You know, there's
no rule that you
can't have the
National Guard
overthrow
Washington,
DC. Yeah
Yet on my
commute home
Every metro
station is full
of National Guard
troops.
Yeah. Yeah
Because even though there's no rule say that you can or cannot he's just doing it
Because that's so

(30:59):
same by
protected area
So like what we
can we can fight
back we can
ridicule them
And this is shown
to actually to
work a little bit
a couple weeks
ago the
Smithsonian
announced
a change
at one of their
exhibits about
impeachment
And you know

(31:21):
public uproar
ridicule and
within 48 hours that they can't beable to get back to the city
So within 48
hours that thing
was back
And it was the
same thing.
They erased
Some stuff about
Jackie Robinson
the great
baseball player
who was the first
black guy to play
Major League
Baseball
There is
they erased
Some of the stuff
about his
military service
on one of the
Pentagon websites
or
something like that

(31:42):
Ridicule and 24
hours it was back
so
Even though he's
doing this stuff
and you know, we
think he's taking
his cues from
industry. He
still wants
to be popular
And you know,
he's there is
still right and
wrong. Yeah
Yeah
So we we fight in
the courts and
that's how this
first battle was

(32:02):
fought in
the courts
Yeah, Earth
Justice was able
to get that judge
to agree with
them and they
were close
to the fishing
But we also will
fight in the the
court of public
opinion. Yeah,
and eventually
we'll fight at
the ballot box
because
You know, we need
if we want to
have ocean
conservation. We
need to elect
people who
support ocean
conservation

(32:22):
Yeah, no, no
doubt now. I want
to talk about the
reasoning why
The judge the
court shut this
down like the
opening of this
National Marine
Sanctuary
So it's open for
a few months
people are
fishing, you know
having a great
time fishing all
that kind
of stuff
Seems like it's
really great
You know a lot of
people that were
not in ocean

(32:43):
conservation saw
the announcement
that it was
opened up
You know, they'd
have an uproar
some people
forgot to talk
You know not
talking about it
as much because
there's so much
going on and then
all of a sudden
we get this court
ruling saying
hey, we're
actually this is
actually doesn't
follow the
Magnuson-Stevens
Act. We're just
going to
Shut it like shut
it back down
because you know
There's certain
things that that
the council says
like they have or

(33:03):
that the council
hasn't met. It's
like can you talk
about what?
What was the
reasoning behind
the shutting it
down again? Like
why it wasn't
To protect it
again. Yeah to
protect again.
Yeah,
shut it down
Yeah, yeah, um
because they're
incompetent
And they they
honestly they

(33:24):
lost on a
technicality
And they thought
that they could
take a shortcut.
They thought that
they could
ignore the law
This is the
government
There's a if you
watch that TV
show parks and
recreation there
was an episode
where Ron Swanson
wanted to have a
barbecue in
A park. Yeah, and
he said I've got

(33:44):
a permit right
here and it said
I'm the parks
director
I can do
what I want
And that's kind
of what they
thought they
thought no, we're
in charge. We can
do
whatever we want
Yeah, but we're a
nation of laws.
Yeah, so they
they have to
follow the
law, right?
And so they kind
of lost on a
technicality,
which means this
is not a
permanent win
This is that this
is a temporary
win where they

(34:06):
now they have to
follow the law
Which means
there's gonna be
a public
comment period
Which means so
the next battle
is we flood the
government with
comments, right?
And this is
unpopular people
support the
protected areas
like national
parks national
Everybody it's
called, you know,
it's the best
idea America ever
had people love

(34:26):
our public areas
So this stuff is
incredibly
unpopular and
it's really just
he's selling
stuff off to the
highest bidder,
which in
this case is
Fishing
interests, but
he's doing the
same thing all
across the
country to for
oil companies and
for mining
companies
Um
I think it's
interesting that

(34:48):
Like is there is
there not a law?
Is there is there
a marine
protected
area law?
Like is there a
law that congress
or the
senate can put in?
Yeah, the you
know the
NASA, sorry nasa
noah is you know,
this amazing
amazing agency
that has uh
Uh satellites and
you know billions
of dollars and

(35:09):
they can predict
hurricanes
and what?
collect data for
climate change
but noah is
within the
department of
commerce,
right and
uh
The which is
which is bizarre
in itself. Yeah,
uh, you know
part of that
It's been for a
while a vestige
of how the united
states has been
around and been
managed
over the years

(35:30):
um
but sustainable
fishing uh
with the the
Net with noa
fisheries is sort
of the the
driving world
view of why our
oceans exist
Uh, and there's
kind of there's
basically
There's a couple
other
tools out there
um, but monuments
and sanctuaries
marine national
monuments

(35:50):
designated with
the antiquities
act and the
national marine
sanctuaries
designated with
the
sanctuaries act
Uh make up most
of the acreage of
our protected
areas. Uh, we
also have uh,
the national the
estuarian
cardboard to say
uh, the estuarian
reserves, uh,
there's also a
number of
National wildlife

(36:10):
refuges that
protect the
ocean. Um, like
buck island
national wildlife
refuge in the
virgin islands
So there's a
couple of
different tools
out there
um, but all of
these different
tools were
created by
different laws
and they
they have
uh, honestly like
somewhat
different
personalities
uh, and different
goals and
different
reasons for

(36:31):
existing or how
they
manage the ocean
um
And these are
relatively new
Uh, you know, so
where are our
national parks?
Uh, yellowstone?
uh
I've been around
since you know,
the late 1800s
early 1900s is
when a lot of our
our lands were
protected
uh, some of our
big marine
protected areas,

(36:51):
uh, were only
designated since
like the 1960s or
some of the
oldest ones
and in fact the
the
sanctuaries act
Was designated in
response to
oil spills
so the the uh in
california
so the threat
that that act
tends to
focus on is uh

(37:12):
oil
Drilling, uh, so
like the the
seafloor
Uh, and that's
why you know the
the chumash
national marine
heritage the
chumash heritage
national marine
sanctuary that
was designated
Last year by
biden actually
doesn't address
fishing right?
Um, it it's it
mainly
deals with uh
The chumash
culture and
involving

(37:32):
indigenous
peoples in the
protected area
Uh, but it also
has restrictions
on oil oil
exploration
Uh, which which
is which is an
important threat.
Absolutely. Yeah
but uh, there is
this
long-standing
conflict between
Uh, the
antiquities act
fishing rules and
the magnus and
stevens act
fishing rules

(37:52):
because they have
different
purposes
Uh, and I we
talked about this
at the beginning
of our chat here
is you know
So that this the
monta marine
monuments are
designated
to protect
Um artifacts.
Yeah, and in this
case the artifact
is the ecosystem.
Yes. Um, that's
what it's it's
meant to
protect habitat
fully
In perpetuity, so
it says there's

(38:13):
for the most
part.
There's no fishing
Um in reality,
there is a
recreational
fishing. There is
um, some cultural
fishing and
there's also what
is called
non-commercial
fishing
um
Uh, so yeah,
like the the
The bigger
problem is is
that the united
states doesn't
necessarily have
the tools

(38:34):
To create what
other countries
Call marine
protected areas.
We have we have
monuments and
sanctuaries
Yeah, uh, and
there's even like
to be a nerd like
there are some
people who might
argue that these
national marine
sanctuaries
aren't marine
protected areas
Because they they
don't do enough
right because
they're you know
one specific
thing or yeah
I don't want to

(38:54):
dive into like I
I think um
You know this you
you've heard me
talk about the
strengths and
weaknesses
of 30 by 30
and
The effort to
protect 30
of the ocean
Um, and this is
some of the
reality like what
does 30 by 30
mean on the
ocean, you
know, there's
Uh on land it's
two-dimensional

(39:14):
but on in the
ocean it's
three-dimensional
right and how do
we how do we
manage that?
um also fish swim
Uh, so how do we
how do we manage
that and not only
make one
boundary?
Yeah, how do we
measure
that? Yeah
um, and and so I
I think uh, some
of these borders
that we draw uh

(39:35):
You know, it's
We're doing what
we can managing
it with the tools
that we have
available
um
But managing the
ocean is is much
more complicated
than just saying
30 of the ocean
is a marine
protecting
area. It's
um, and even
getting to that
30 percent you
also have to ask
the question of
How did we get
there? What was

(39:55):
the process that
we went through?
And then who were
the people that
were involved? Um
and going through
that process
I think there's
also something to
say too like, uh,
you know you and
I have been
watching
You've been
involved in in in
the designation
of marine
protected areas
of all sorts from
all over
the world
I've been
watching and I
studied it in
university and so
forth and there's
something to be
said about even

(40:16):
A marine
protected area
first being
designated may
not have all the
protections
It needs to fully
protect that area
But then you can
build on it as it
grows and
as you know
The first the
first step is to
get it designated
obviously not you
don't want a
paper park where
Nothing is
enforced and
nothing is
managed. But even
if you get one
thing managed
Hopefully later
on you can
increase the size

(40:36):
like like this
one was done
Or you can
increase the
amount of
protections or
you can designate
certain areas
like a bit like
the the
multi-management
style that the
grapeberry reef
Marine park has
And maybe you
know install that
and have like
certain
protections in
certain areas as
you discover more
of that area and
you research
More of that area
and how

(40:56):
beneficial it is
and where to
pinpoint?
Um, you know
spawning areas or
nursery areas and
so forth of
specific
fish stocks
um
There's there's
something to be
said about
establishing and
building upon
that it may not
be perfect
But we know in
this world
nothing's going
to be perfect
when you first
start it off and
it takes a
long time
And a lot of
effort to

(41:17):
designate
uh an mpa
Not you know
notwithstanding
any kind of
difficulty in
getting certain
things protected
and certain
things not it's
it's a it's a
long-term goal
to be able
to do this
for uh,
you know you
You have a good
pulse on
What these mpa's?
You know that

(41:37):
you've been
involved and have
to do with
You know people
who live around
these areas live
on these islands
and and you know
benefit from the the
benefits of these
uh spill effects
notwithstanding
not like fully
understanding
what
You know this the
the mpa for the
last 10 years or
the the expansion
has done for fish

(41:57):
and size and
things like that
and I know we
talked a little
bit about the
social um the
social
implications, but
how
important is it to
uh a lot of
people who live
out in those
islands are
indigenous how
important
is it for
the indigenous
people for these
protections
to happen
And and to be
designated you
mentioned how a
lot of times uh,

(42:18):
it was to protect
also
indigenous culture
Uh and important
for indigenous
people how
important
is it for
This uh area to
be closed and
then what are the
effects of that
when it's open?
There's no no
community as a
monolith. Um, and
the the opinions
that people on
islands have
whether they're
indigenous or
non-indigenous,
uh are as
variable as the

(42:40):
opinions
that we have
uh
in toronto or in
washington d.c.
So it's it's uh,
you can't speak
to what what
Do people what do
all people think?
Um, but when we
talk about
What is success?
Uh, what is
conservation
success and are
these protected
areas successful?

(43:00):
Yeah, um, I I
think from the
NGO perspective
and protect, you
know from the
science
perspective
The definition of
success for a
very long time
has been the area
that is protected
the square
kilometers
That get
protected and so
the united states
adds up the
number of square
kilometers, but
actually miles
because we don't
use kilometers
down here

(43:20):
Um, and they say,
you know where
this is our
percentage and
and that's what
the success is
um, but it can be
different when
you're living on
the island,
right, so uh
For for most
people it's are
there fish on my
a healthy ocean
means there's a
fish on my
plate, right?
And that's that's
the outcome that
they want
uh, but some of
the stuff that I

(43:41):
would like to see
redefine success
and marine
conservation
Is who has those
jobs? So there
there are so many
jobs for the
ocean for this
this conservation
world, right?
So there's the
scientist. Yep
There's the
administrator
There's the
person who
washes, uh, or
you know who
sweeps the floors
at university
And are those

(44:01):
jobs in
washington state
or are they on
guam? Right? Uh,
we where did that
money go?
Um, so there's
the science
there's the
conservation
There's the
advocate world.
So are people
living in
washington d.c?
And then flying
to the islands to
to make these
conservation
decisions
And how much are

(44:21):
they getting paid
or are the people
on the islands
having those
jobs? Yeah
um for the
management, um
are the are the
managers
from the islands
or are they um
And this is the
united states,
right? So within
the context of
the united states
Um, are they or

(44:42):
are they staffers
from say
new york?
And I don't like
I don't think
anybody that's
from new york
with working on
the islands
Who come to the
islands? Um
To work and some
of this can be
complicated
Uh, because those
job descriptions
get written in
hawaii or they
get written in
washington, dc
Um, and you know
you ask the
question
is it better

(45:02):
To find a local
person in that
job even if they
haven't taken
zoology yet
Uh, right because
because that job
description says
like you have to
have taken
zoology. Yeah
Um, and do they
even still teach
zoology or is it
called something
else in
these days?
um
And then there's
you know the
fisheries
benefits
There's the
tourism benefits.

(45:22):
So it's actually
much larger
Um, and whether
if you're
a tourist
Operator or
you're an ngo or
you're a
government or
you're a
scientist
There's different
ways that you
even even within
those different
silos that you
that you would
define success.
Um, but those
We need social
scientists to
help us
understand
that. Yeah
Um, and that

(45:43):
doesn't get
communicated and
that doesn't get
to be part of
How we define
conservation
success?
Um
We also don't
have the the
processes that
were gone through
right? So yes,
there was a
public
comment period
Um, but were the
borders drawn
with local input
or word or or did
somebody in dc
draw the borders?

(46:04):
Send it to the
island and say
comment on this.
Yeah, um, even
things like
To make the
decision for a
public
comment period
Uh, was that
decision based on
the island or was
that decision
based in
washington dc?
Yeah, um, and I
don't see
Okay
My no, my wife is
uh, her phone is

(46:25):
ringing. I
didn't hear it
So so that's just
one of the joys
of live
interviews. So
you don't need to
cut that. I did.
I did not
have a stroke
It was just my
wife's phone
started ringing
And I didn't want
to I didn't know
if you could hear
it. Yeah. Yeah. I
heard a
little bit
Buff of a hide
looked like a
song you didn't
but like from

(46:45):
where i'm sitting
It was really
loud and my
assumption was
that nobody
could hear it
Um, that's what
happened. It got
you distracted
Yeah, uh, yeah,
but you know to
bring it back to
your to your
question of
You know, are
people supportive
of these kind of
things is like
the answer is
complicated. Yeah
Um, because it
depends on what
the success rate
is like what

(47:05):
there's the same
kinds of interest
It's our society
is just as
complicated
Um, but then like
the other thing
to understand
about these
island societies
is that there's
an intimacy
When you live
there, um, and
you know you
People come from
the outside. You
don't get that
you don't get to
understand that
intimacy

(47:26):
Of i've lived
here my entire
life the people
who were in this
society were my
Classmates when I
was a kid. Um, we
are we are
tight knit
Um, even if I
just even if we
have a fight
right now
That fight has to
happen in a way
so that next week
We can talk about
something
else. Yeah
Um, yeah, or or
it's my in-law

(47:47):
And uh a lot of
sometimes the
timelines that
are on islands
Uh, do not go
they're not on
the same
timelines as
ngo's.
Yeah, uh, okay
Right, so you're
the ngo their
their fiscal year
ends in june. So
they got to spend
this
money by june
But maybe it's
election season

(48:07):
um and
Elections are
incredibly
important because
it's actually
pretty easy to
make decisions
and like, you
know, ram things
through on
an island
Uh, but are they
going to be?
there for the
long term,
right, um, and
so
This takes time.
Yeah, um, i i've
been I live in
washington d.c

(48:27):
But I I still
talk to people
back at home. I'm
still plugged
into the
community
There's other
members. You
know, we're an
ecosystem of of
advocates. We've
got dz people.
We've got
diaspora
We've got people
at home, but i've
been doing it for
20 years
Uh, and that's
that's what this
conservation
takes place. And
so yeah, uh to
bring it back to
the initial
discussion

(48:48):
This moment where
this yo-yo
conservation that
we're
experiencing this
back and forth of
it's open
to fishing
It's closed
to fishing
In a couple of
months it's going
to be open
to fishing
Um, and then
there's gonna be
another lawsuit
and it's going to
be closed to
fishing. Um
Real people are
dealing with this
right and it's
and also it's
very
emotional too
Like a lot of our
identities are

(49:09):
tied into this
Um and to have
that, you know
back and forth
There's money
involved like
there's we talked
about the fish
being worth a
thousand dollars
Uh, you know
those those boats
they want to
catch the fish.
They want to go
Yeah, they want
to go get those
eye those those
iphones out. Uh,
and then and then
sell them and
make money
Yeah, um

(49:30):
So, you know,
this is this is
why we need
long-term
committed people
living in these
islands,
uh who can
participate
in these actions
over the long
term and
You know back to
the the idea of
who gets the
benefits a lot of
times those jobs
just aren't with
the people
in the islands
Yeah, um, they're

(49:52):
for people in
The mainland.
Yeah. Yeah, which
is like you said,
it's very it's
very complicated
When we think
about it and it
almost requires
its own own study
to to to be able
to kind of
you know
Like untie all
the all the
different lines
that that of the
benefits and the
successes
Um, so like, you

(50:13):
know finishing up
this this
conversation
Uh to wrap it up
the big idea here
now that is
closed might open
up again
There's a there's
definitely a need
to
uh to to get
more data to
increase
We have to study
the shit out of
this. We have to
come from we have
to we have to
science the shit

(50:33):
out of this
And yeah, we need
fishery science
We need npa
science and we
need social
science and where
do you want that
to come from?
um
I think the
fishery
scientists can
come out of
hawaii. Um, but
but i'd love a
lot of this comes
down to resources
Um, but I think
there are people
in american semoa

(50:53):
and in the
territories who
could help lead
this
social science
To help us ask
the right
questions and
understand what's
going on. How is
this affecting
the
community? Yeah
um and uh
Often, you know,
we're indigenous
communities and
oftentimes
indigenous
communities
get studied
And then the
studies don't
have the context
or deep
understanding.
Yes of that that

(51:14):
intimacy of our
societies
I like i've read
lots of books
about my own
community from
outsiders or
studies from
outsiders and it
just feels off
Yeah, you know
like somebody
says the wrong
thing. Yeah, like
when like when an
american pretends
to be canadian
It's just like
it's just it's
just off. Yeah,
um, because you
just you just
don't have that

(51:35):
that cultural
experience
for sure of
That deep
knowledge and
understanding of
living in that
island
society is like
Um, and we've got
experts now we've
got we've got
kids with phds
kids when
I say kids
I mean like
people in their
30s and 40s. Yes,
uh, but we we
have our own
experts. Um, who
can help
Guide this work
who can do it in
a way that our

(51:56):
people will
respond to it
Yeah, and does
this require
funding for
people to be able
to do that and
where so so is
this like
It's a call on
like foundations
who want this
data. Yeah
Are it's it's a
little bit of
some of it's like
We see what we
see what the
government is
doing and it's in
a couple years.
We're going to
get the
government

(52:16):
to go back
Hopefully the
data survives
Um, but
philanthropy
doesn't have
enough money to
replace the
government
Um, but so we we
need to offer
them some nuggets
of ideas of of
things that they
can study
Things that they
can fund that
will deliver
Some
understanding of
what's happening.
Yeah, but but

(52:36):
again, like I do
think
that this has
global
significance
because it's it's
very rare that an
area of a million
square kilometers
That was close to
fishing suddenly
gets fished.
Yeah, like
this. It's
We need that
data. We need
that. Yeah, it
could either it
could confirm
everything that
we've been saying
for 20 years
Or it could throw

(52:56):
it out the
window. This
could fund
probably about
17 phds
Not and then
that's not even
including
master's students
like it's
it's uh,
uh, there's
definitely an
opportunity right
now given given
the circumstances
to be able to
um
You know bring
this together and
and and you know
at least
learn from it

(53:17):
Uh and see what
the ramifications
are going to be
in the future and
what the
ramifications
have been
in the past with
this 10 years of
of closing off
like a 50 to 200
nautical
mile area
around these
these wonderful
islands and I
think that's
that's a really
important
a really
important thing
to do um what's
the you've
mentioned it a

(53:38):
couple times you
think that
it's probably
going to open up
again like why
would it why
would it
open up again?
I I think the
Trump
administration
wants to I think
they want to give
industry a
green light
and they they
tried to break
the law um but we
called them on
that and we still
have judges who
will stand up to
lawbreakers.
Yeah, um, so uh

(53:58):
now they're
they're gonna try
to do it the
legal way. Yeah,
uh, which which
is going
to require
a public notice a
public
comment period
Uh, they'll
probably get
buried in
comments. Yeah,
so that'll take
them weeks and
months years
uh to go through
Um, and then
they'll put
something out.
Um, and you know,
if they if
there's a misstep
Somebody will sue

(54:18):
them. Yeah, uh,
they're gonna
have to be very
careful because
people are
watching
People are
watching people
are fighting.
This is
unpopular. This
is deeply
unpopular. Yeah
Um, Americans
love our public
lands and waters.
Yeah, and we we
understand why we
have
protected areas
Do you think
there's a
possibility to
delay this
process with the
comments and
everything like
that and burying
them under those
comments where
they have to

(54:39):
address them?
To the point
where it gets
close to the end
of of this
administration's
time
That's the
hope. Yeah
um, and it's uh
You know the
trump
administration
was talking about
flooding the
zone. Uh, steve
bannon is like
they're just
throwing
everything
all at once
Yeah, see what
sticks so

(55:00):
See what
sticks? Um
And uh, you know,
we're fighting
this we're
fighting deep sea
mining in america
and samoa
Um, we might be
fighting openings
up of other
protected areas
on land
and on waters
um all while the
national guard,
um is
patrolling our
metro stops, um,
and while ice is

(55:21):
picking up
immigrants, uh
It's uh, it's a
lot. It's a lot
going on a lot to
be distracted
like it's easy to
be distracted by
different
priorities
depending on
Where you're from
how you how you
know what your
family's like and
and relatives and
everything like
that,
right? It's uh,
It's a we live in
interesting times

(55:41):
very interesting
times. Yeah.
Yeah, so well
angel. I I
appreciate you
coming on
I know this was
me go it's it's
important for uh,
for the both of
us to get this
out there
I definitely
agree with you
that we need to
science the shit
out of this and
hopefully get um,
You know get some
answers and to
see you know,
what's what's
coming and and
for everybody?

(56:01):
Uh, you know,
we'll follow this
story and for all
everybody's
listening to the
audience
We'll make sure
that we'll tell
you when the
public comment is
open. Uh, and
then do you do
your thing?
You know if you
want this
mpa to be
uh to be an mpa
and stay an mpa,
you know, give us
your give us the
reasons and and
give it to them
and just
Do what we can do
what we can do
and and uh follow

(56:22):
the law and
that's what
that's what we're
going to do
So angel, I
appreciate you
coming on the
podcast and um
and letting us
know about this
Thank you. Angelo
for joining us on
today's episode
of the how to
protect the
ocean podcast
It was great to
have you on such
an important
issue that we
need to
talk about
The fact is like
no matter what we
think of policies
that are put in
place by
governments in
power or the
parties that are
in power
Of these
governments

(56:42):
science needs to
happen. This is
an opportunity to
find out one
How this monument
has actually
benefited if it
has benefited the
fish that were
protected from
fishing over the
last 10
years and two
What has this
done for the
fishery that's
now open and how
has it benefited?
socioeconomically
to the people who
depend on these
fish to sell
As angel said
during the

(57:02):
interview the
people in the
island
communities look
at it is like if
there's fish out
there if
the ocean
Is healthy then I
have a fish
on my plate
That's how they
look at the
health of the
ocean and so
that's something
that could be
measured
That's something
that could look
at if they're
able to sell
fish. They're
able to benefit
economically and
socially
There's a lot of
things that can
go in. There's a
lot of
collaborations
that can happen
You know
We need money and

(57:23):
funding to do
that kind of
stuff in a
position where we
have an
opportunity to
look at the
science of
these big
Pictures and when
you take away a
million square
miles from 1.3
million square
miles of
protection
You know, you're
looking at a big
area and this is
something that
has been
unprecedented as
angela has
mentioned
So being able to
monitor this
being able to see
the effects the
benefits that

(57:44):
potentially this
marine protector
has provided
And seeing how
that would do
opening it up to
the fishery or
even if it's over
the last three or
four months
And maybe even
later on that's
something that we
need to measure
That's something
that we need to
find out what the
benefits are so
that we can show
the benefits of
that if there are
benefits
So we're going to
find out
hopefully
through science
But when the
public comment
period comes out

(58:05):
for opening up
the marine
sanctuary again
We'll definitely
let you know
We'll be
following this
story because we
are going to need
everybody to
mention why it's
so important to
keep this close
So that's going
to be something
that's very
important
And I hope that
you can help us
with that if you
have any
questions or
comments on this
episode or
this topic
Please put them
in the comments
below if you're
watching
this on youtube
Or you can get a

(58:25):
hold of me by
going to
instagram dmme
Go to act how to
protect the ocean
or you can go to
speak up for
blue.com forward
slash contact and
you can
contact me
It goes right to
my personal email
I'd love to hear
from you about
this subject and
what you think of
it all
politics aside
Like I get that
it's a tough time
in the us
Let's look at the
fact that science
can help
understand what's
happened in the

(58:46):
benefits or
non-benefits of a
marine protected
area in this area
And especially
opening up to the
fisheries. Will
it benefit? How
long will it
benefit?
What could be the
consequences of
opening this up
too quickly or
opening
up at all?
So that's what I
want to really
focus on
I want to kind of
keep the politics
aside to be
honest because I
just think people
are just going to
get distracted
You know, it's a

(59:06):
tough time in the
us. It's a tough
time worldwide
But this is
something that we
need to do as
scientists
We need to
science the hell
out of this and
that's something
that's really
important
So I want to
thank you for
listening to this
episode of how to
protect the
ocean podcast
I want to thank
angela for coming
on and bringing
this to our
attention and
thank you for
listening
This is something
that is really
important to me
to get you know
ocean literacy
out there and to

(59:27):
make sure that we
understand
What's happening
in the ocean and
understanding the
complexities that
happen as angela
highlighted
But I want to
thank you again
for listening
This has been
another exciting
episode of the
how to protect
the ocean podcast
I'm your host
angela and from
the true north
strong and free.
Have a great day
We'll talk to you
next time and
happy
conservation