Prevent Overfishing: How Transparency Can Save the Ocean

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(01:00:00):
One of the biggest things that I feel
like gets overlooked
a lot is overfishing.
The health of our ocean, you alluded to
it when you're talking about overfishing,
it's really under pressure and it's under
pressure from intensive human activity.
But despite all of that activity that's
going on, the ocean's the
least observed part of our planet.
We really don't have a good clue or a

(01:00:20):
good sense of what's happening.
And that means that decision makers,
they're not getting access to the timely
information that they need
to manage and protect the ocean.
How do we combat
overfishing on a global scale?
This has been a question that's been on
the books for a long time.
And the big thing is transparency,
knowing where fishing vessels go, where
they're at and how is track

(01:00:42):
throughout the supply chain.
You know, that's a big, big problem.
But just tracking fishing vessels is one
of the biggest problems
and challenges around it.
24 study led by Global Fishing Watch, who
we're going to be interviewing today,
showed that 75 percent of industrial
fishing fleets are not tracked.
That is a dangerous number.
So I have Courtney Farthing, who is the

(01:01:03):
director of international policy at the
Global Fishing Watch, who is here to talk
about how we've tracked fisheries and how
we track fishing vessels and how
important transparency is
to the Global Fishing Watch.
And we're going to be talking about that
on this episode of the How
to Protect the Ocean podcast.
Let's start the show.

(01:01:28):
Hey, everybody, welcome back to another
exciting episode of the How
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.
And this is the podcast where you find
out what's happening with the ocean, how
you can speak up for the ocean and what
you can do to live for a
better ocean by taking action.
Now, in today's episode, we're going to
be talking to Courtney Farthing from the
Global Fishing Watch.
She is the international policy director

(01:01:50):
based in London, but Global Fishing Watch
have their employees or
staff all over the world.
This is what makes them
such an effective organization.
They've only been around for about 10
years and they have become a major player
in helping countries deal with
transparency, looking at data operations
and how interoperable they are and making

(01:02:10):
sure everybody's on the same standard as
well as tracking where the money goes.
Who profits from ocean fishing?
Like, that's really
what it comes down to.
Now, that is more of a challenging thing
that we talked about later on.
But looking at, you know, tracking
transparency and fishing vessels is a
huge, huge important part of the Global
Fishing Watch's mission.

(01:02:31):
And they are working with countries to
help that, especially using technology.
Courtney talks about the 2025 our oceans
conference that happened in South Korea
recently and talks about what Global
Fishing Watch wanted to accomplish,
talking about digital oceans, talking
about technology and transparency.
And then how that international
conference leads into the UN Ocean Decade

(01:02:51):
Conference that happens in June this
2025. So we're going to talk a lot of
things. We're going to go fishing vessel
tracking transparency.
We're going to be talking about who
profits. We're going to be talking about
some of the challenges that are faced and
some of the successes that we've had, as
well as international conferences and how
important they are
all on today's episode.
So here is Courtney Farthing talking
about transparency in fishing. Enjoy the

(01:03:14):
interview and we'll talk to you after.
Hey, Courtney, welcome to the How to
Protect the Ocean podcast. Are you ready
to talk about global fishing?
Hi, Andrew. Yes, definitely. Thank you so
much for having me. I'm
really excited to be here.
I am very excited because look, we know
Oceans Day is coming up. Ocean's week is
coming up. There's a lot to talk about
when we talk when we talk about oceans.

(01:03:35):
But one of the biggest things that I feel
like gets overlooked a lot, even though
it's on the back of people's minds in the
public, in the general public, is
overfishing and overfishing.
What are the causes? We've seen
documentaries on there before that
haven't been too great. And there's a lot
of data out there to

(01:03:56):
show what's happening.
But in the general public, we just we
blame fishermen in the fishing community
overall. And there's obviously
separation. There's a
lot of nuances in that.
But when it really comes to global
fishing and looking at the problems over
fishing and addressing it, we really want
to look at transparency.
And that's what we're going to be talking
about today. So I'm super, super excited.

(01:04:18):
Before we get into all that, though,
Courtney, why don't you just let us know
who you are and what you do.
Yeah, thanks so much, Andrew. Yeah, and
thanks again for having me. My name is
Courtney Farthing. I'm the International
Policy Director at Global Fishing Watch.
I've been with the organization just over
five years and working in this space for
a little over a decade, always on

(01:04:39):
international and regional fisheries
policies, negotiations.
I studied this at university and really
have been interested in it since I was a
young child. So yeah, really happy to be
here talking about it today.
That's awesome. What made like since a
young child, like for fishing, like what
made you interested? Did you grow up in a
fishing community or like what made you

(01:04:59):
interested in fishing in general?
Yeah, it's a really good question. I
think that probably a lot of people, my
generation that are British would have
the same answer. There was this TV series
led by David Attenborough, a TV presenter
here in the UK called Blue Planet.
Yes. Probably I was five or six and it
just, you know, shook my little five or

(01:05:20):
six year old world. I got the coffee
table book for the images. I was obsessed
and that obsession
never really went away.
I mean, David Attenborough has that that
effect on people too, right? And I think
he still has that effect even though he's
what and is well into his nineties. I
think he's ninety nine. I think I saw.
Yeah, I'm not sure
late nineties for sure.
Yeah, late nineties for sure. Unreal. But

(01:05:41):
he's been definitely a pioneer in getting
people interested in oceans and in
fishing. And Blue Planet is such a great,
great experience. Blue Planet two was
even better. It just
gets better and better.
Yeah, for sure. Now you work for a global
fishing watch and some of our members
know, like some of our audience knows who
global fishing watches. Some of them
don't. Can you just kind of let us know,

(01:06:03):
you know, what global
fishing does and why?
Yeah. Yeah. And I thank you so much for
the opportunity to introduce the
organization. So I guess the context
really, I'll start by saying that, you
know, the health of our ocean, you
alluded to it when you're talking about
overfishing. It's really under pressure
and it's under pressure from intense.
So if human activity, but despite all of

(01:06:25):
that activity that's going on, the
oceans, the least observed part of our
planet, we really don't have a good clue
or a good sense of what's happening.
And that means that decision makers,
they're not getting access to the timely
information that they need to manage and
protect the ocean. So global fishing
watches, an international nonprofit that
was born out of, I guess, frustration at

(01:06:46):
trying to address those challenges.
Our purpose is to transform the way that
the ocean is managed. We want to kind of
take the business as usual closed
patchwork governance system and flip it
on its head to deliver an open,
transparent global system.
And, you know, we're dedicated to doing

(01:07:07):
that by increasing the level of
transparency of human activity at sea.
What that means in reality is that we
create data and tools that we share
publicly to support anybody in the
decision making process, know more about,
you know, what's going on and have as
much publicly available information as
possible at their fingertips for free.

(01:07:28):
That's awesome. I mean, transparency is
such an important term, right? It's it's
it's something that we need to see more
of it. We talk a lot about transparency.
We talk a lot about what that actually
means, where it actually gets implemented
and how it gets implemented.
Governments talk about transparency a
lot. But if you think about it, a lot of

(01:07:50):
times governments aren't transparent with
a lot of things. And so what is
transparency mean in specifically for
global fishing watch?
So we believe essentially that all of the
activity that goes on on the high seas,
that's those areas outside of a country's
national waters. That's a common
resource. And so therefore activity,

(01:08:12):
those activities should be common
knowledge because of
this common resource.
So Global Fishing Watch defines
transparency as making information
available and accessible to everyone that
it affects. And that definition is pretty
broad. It's based on one from the United
Nations. And we really focus on ocean and
vessel data transparency.
As you say, there's a whole range of

(01:08:34):
interpretations that it can be used for.
But we're looking at ocean and vessel
data, the policies and the decision
making processes that govern those data.
And we believe that all of this
information should be available and
accessible to everyone with a stake in
what happens to that resource.
That could be the fishing community, the
local community experiencing secondhand

(01:08:54):
impacts from high seas fishing, the
researchers investigating trends or the
general public who just want to see a
sustainable future
for future generations.
That's amazing. It's so, like I said,
it's so important to have transparency,
but not everybody uses transparency. Like
that's not a common thing in in fishing. There are some there are some tools that we can use, but it's not a common thing.

(01:09:15):
We'll discuss, you know, how we figured
that out in the future in in in in this
interview. But what what steps do you
think people can take or that that just
ocean governance in general can take so
that we can get more towards, you know,

(01:09:36):
putting in putting transparency to
becoming more of the standard rather than the exception when you talk about ocean governance in general.
Yeah, I think there are two main things.
Firstly, we need to increase the amount
of transparent data. People need to be
publishing things like their vessel
tracking information, the identity of the
vessels, where they're authorized to
operate, who the owners are. And this is

(01:09:59):
becoming increasingly available. But the
second thing that we need is policies to
regulate that and to require that. And
that really needs to be strengthened.
We're seeing a pretty massive impact on the data.
And we're seeing a pretty massive shift,
I would say, in attitudes towards
transparency of ocean and fisheries data.
From our perspective at Global Fishing
Watch, we're seeing our countries coming
to us and asking how they can share more

(01:10:21):
information as they start to see and
experience the benefits that that public
information brings them.
And in a really kind of pivotal moment
for ocean transparency at the end of last
year, United Nations adopted through
consensus. So everybody agreed, which is
pretty unusual and assembly resolution
that features text specifically on

(01:10:43):
transparency and fisheries,
recognizes the role that transparency has
to play in sustainable fishing practices,
and it urges countries and international
bodies to consider ways that they can
better integrate transparent practices.
So it's really brilliant progress, but
we've still got quite a way to go.
And so we really need to see fishing

(01:11:04):
nations publishing their vessel
registries. That's who they allow to
fish, including the details on who's
actually benefiting from those fishing
operations, not just who's working on the
vessels, but who's profiting from the
operations, the
ultimate beneficial owner.

(01:11:45):
And that gives everyone information on what the vessels allowed to do, where and who's benefiting. So we're seeing a shift in attitudes and
more and more vessels publish their
tracking data. And if we have these
policies in place, those changes can
withstand changes in government, changes
in personnel, the rules already written
and countries can also

(01:12:06):
improve them over time and
over time. When we're talking about what

(01:12:27):
we're talking about, the information is
low level. So we're talking about ie, the
cost of writing textbooks,oof, Isa at the diver, three or etc.isons. Maybe not what you're discussing now. So they look at policy lifefacking, if you're going to recover, partnered with a company you own a business with coupon secrets program is
only getting real, appleamb
to other nonprofit organizations
or non-governmental organizations,
just more within that
country, it's within there.
Yeah.
And then there's probably other countries
who aren't tracking a
lot of their phishing,
just in general, they may
not have the technology,

(01:12:47):
they may not have the ability,
or it's just not in their practices
or in their traditional practices, right?
So there's a lot of different,
I mean, there's so many countries
you're probably dealing with.
It's probably a lot
of different cultures,
different people, different
countries around the world
who are just like, we
just never thought of that.
How important is this
for Global Fishing Watch

(01:13:08):
to be able to work
with countries like that
to say, "Hey, look,
this is what we've seen
around the world that's been working.
Are you interested too, especially
countries coming to you
saying, I mean, it must feel good
that countries are
coming to you and being like,
"Hey, how do we implement this?"
But how do you work with those countries
when they come to you?
I assume you don't go to
them, they come to you,
and then you work with them.

(01:13:29):
Is that how it works?
Yeah, I guess it's a little bit of both.
Global Fishing Watch,
through all of our research
and the great innovation
teams work that we have,
we were able to identify
perhaps where the challenges are,
where there is a lot of
tracking information already
and therefore where there maybe isn't.
And we might make
approaches to those countries

(01:13:49):
and find out, are there challenges
that are preventing them
from using these systems?
Is it a cost issue?
Is it a resource issue?
And similarly, we get
approached by countries
for specific issues and we might help
them with that specific issue
and then broaden our
program of work together
to look at the bigger picture over time.

(01:14:10):
But yeah, there is these
different systems in place
in terms of vessel tracking and the more
traditional one is closed.
There is an open one that has
historically been used for safety at sea
that's becoming increasingly common to
use as part of a tool of options
for fisheries management.
And we're really seeing people embrace

(01:14:30):
that more than ever.
Amazing. Now, the Our Oceans Conference,
the 2025 Oceans Conference,
just finished up earlier this month.
And it was in Busan, I think I'm
pronouncing that properly, South Korea.
Good. Now, one of the themes of the
conference was digital oceans.
Now, this seems to play right into what
we're talking about here

(01:14:51):
in terms of transparency,
in terms of making it available to people
technology plays a huge role in that
in terms of tracking vessels and making
it public databases and so forth.
And we're in a bit of a revolution in
terms like a digital revolution
where we're starting to
see more of that available.
But there's still that open question of,
you know, the role of technology

(01:15:13):
that has been delivering to deliver more
sustainable and
transparent ocean governance.
So how do you see technology fitting in
and delivering good ocean governance,
especially when it's
referring to transparency?
Yeah, I mean, lots of people obviously
think technology is going to solve all
problems everywhere.
And that's certainly not
Global Fishing Watch's position.

(01:15:33):
Technology is crucial, essentially, for
helping people to be more effective.
It's not something that's going to solve
the issues on its own.
It's always about giving more
information, better information, more
succinct information to people.
So, for example, you might have a foreign
vessel request entry into a port.

(01:15:56):
So, say, Canadian vessels are in Canada
requesting entry into UK
waters as I'm here in London.
Right.
And the UK authorities might want more
information about what
that vessel has been doing.
They have two options, really.
They can ask the vessel
operator and take their word.
If they're not sure of some information
missing, they can contact the Canadian

(01:16:17):
authorities and ask them
to fact check, basically.
And traditionally, you know, you might
have a notebook that has a list of people
handwritten with a phone number of fax
information, email address.
Yeah. And that pretty quickly becomes
outdated and unhelpful.
People change jobs and, you know, is that
a three or an eight?
I don't know. And technology

(01:16:39):
helps you to fix that problem.
There is this really potentially
transformative tool called the Global
Record, which is a UN initiative.
It's an international transparent
database of vessel records.
And that would provide a single source of
information with all of that in it.

(01:17:00):
And if countries keep that information up
to date, then your notebooks, obviously,
and who you need to
contact is very clear.
Yeah.
Another example. It makes it faster for
people to connect because you can just
almost automate that process to like, if
I don't know who this Canadian vessel is,
I don't have as much information.
An email could trigger to be sent right
to the authorities in Canada to be like,

(01:17:22):
oh, so Coast Guard is like, yes, no, we
know this vessel and this
is here's the information.
Boom, updated. It works
seamlessly, right? Exactly.
And there's like less opportunity for
misinterpretation because you're coming
at it from the same underlying data.
So in that way,
technology is really helpful.
Another example that springs to mind is a
vessel might show, you know, your

(01:17:44):
Canadian vessel, it would be unusual, but
your Canadian vessel might tell me in the
UK that they're authorized to fish for
the tuna in the Pacific Ocean.
Right. But I have access to transparent
tracking information.
And so I can see actually, OK, this
vessel was recently
fishing in the Indian Ocean.
So I authorized to the Indian Ocean or is
there an issue here?
And technology allows you to very rapidly

(01:18:06):
pull together all of the different
sources related to that specific vessel
and cross check as well as highlighting
who the owner of the vessel is.
So you have the transparency of the data,
the technology, pulling together all
these different sources and allowing you
as the user to choose
where to dig deeper.
Good governance can only be delivered by

(01:18:26):
the authorities, as we
said, it's the people.
Right. It's the people having access to
that information and saying, ah, OK, this
owner is problematic.
We've had an issue with this owner
before. Yes, we need to investigate
further or this vessel.
It actually is authorized to
operate in the Indian Ocean.
It's just that this database hasn't been
updated yet, but these other four have

(01:18:47):
and therefore don't
need to do anything else.
It's just it's not realistic that these
deep dives will be made out on every
single fisheries decision.
Countries just don't have the resources
that transparency and technology, they
allow people to be more effective in
choosing where those
resources get allocated.
One and also like the speed at which

(01:19:08):
decisions can be made to obviously having
multiple databases from each country and
not integrating them as it's a problem
which can be changed.
We know that now, but also the speed at
which, like, you know, we're talking, you
know, our example before was, you know, a
legal example where it's like just, you
know, people coming into a different port
but may not have the information that
happens all the time.

(01:19:29):
And so it automatically gets updated.
Boom, no problem. But when you have a
legal fishing happen and then you have
somebody go in like a ship that comes in
through to a port, empties out and leaves
probably within a couple of hours.
It's very difficult for the authorities
to even be dispatched or even to
recognize that that is not a fishing
vessel that is in good standing or has

(01:19:49):
had problems like you said before, but
they can't act on it
until they get there.
Now, I have heard of cases where AIs is
being used or being explored in being
able to quicken that process. And I'm
sure like, you know, data was a data
mining and so forth, like these types of
technologies can help.
Is Global Fishing Watch involved in any
of that type of work where we're looking

(01:20:10):
at upgrading that technology to speed up
the process where, you know, authorities
at the port can be dispatched in time. So
these vessels are caught
before they come into port.
Yeah, absolutely. That's a really cool
program of work for us. We, you know,
these systems that you're talking about,
they've been in place in many developed
nations for a long time.

(01:20:30):
And so what Global Fishing Watch is
really trying to do is bring together
those elements and give them to
developing nations for free so that the
developing nations have access to the
same like cutting edge innovative tools
that will save them
resources in the long run.
We have two programs of work that are
directly related to what you're talking
about. One is for port inspections and we

(01:20:51):
have a tool. You can find it on our
website. It's called Vessel Viewer.
It really collates all of that
information in an easy to understand way.
You can type in a vessel name, a vessel
identifier, a fleet, a flag, whatever you
like. And it will give you very, very
quickly, very rapidly, much quicker than
my Google searching.
You know, five, 10, 15 different data

(01:21:13):
sources of information for that for that
vessel. And you can quickly scan and see,
okay, these don't match. Therefore, I
want to take action.
And then the second program of work is
similar, but it's really focused on
supporting boardings and inspections. So
Coast Guards and using the same data
sources by presenting it in a way that
helps patrol planning. And yeah, we've

(01:21:35):
been doing that for a long time and had
some great successes.
That's amazing. That's amazing. Now
talking about technology and vessel
tracking, you know, in Busan, Global
Fishing Watch spoke quite prominently
about the great need for binding vessel
agreement, tracking agreements. What is
vessel tracking and like why should it
matter for those concerned about

(01:21:56):
effective global ocean governance?
Yeah, so vessel tracking is the ability
to detect, identify and monitor a ship's
location and map the full details of the
ship's journey. So from the port that
they leave from through to their final
destination. And we can track our cars
like this, our aeroplanes, even our

(01:22:16):
merchant vessels in the same ocean. But
really surprisingly, there's no global
requirement for all fishing vessels that
leave their own
national waters to be tracked.
And we just we can't fix what we can't
see. So without a full data informed
picture, the true scale of the human
activity at sea and all of the impacts

(01:22:37):
that add up, you know, we can't manage
them effectively. And we can't take
informed or preemptive
actions to address their issues.
So, you know, if you're concerned about
the sustainability of your HADUC here in
the UK or human rights conditions of the
supply chain where your pet food comes
from or degradation of the Great Barrier

(01:22:57):
Reef, you should care really that there's
no global binding tracking requirement
because these things all add up and they
all equal increasing
pressure on our ocean.
So knowing what fishing vessels are doing
and where allows us to understand the
pressures, how they accumulate and how we
can manage them before they do
irreparable damage to

(01:23:18):
our our ocean's health.
Yeah, it's really interesting too,
because I think, you know, when you talk
about vessel tracking for for fishing,
you would think that all fishers don't
want people to know where they go, you
know, they have their own special spot.
And how they increase their no take
areas, or they're no like nobody goes in
those areas from 3% to 33%. I think, at
the time, they increased it by 30%. But

(01:23:39):
they did it using vessel tracking. So when they put time to work with them, you know, you
the heading of the Great Barrier Reef
Marine Park at the time in
early 2000. He came over,
he was a good friend of my supervisor,
John Roff, and he came
over and he did a presentation
on how they increased their no take areas
or nobody goes in
those areas from 3% to 33%,
I think at the time. So they increased it
by 30%, but they did it
using vessel tracking.

(01:24:00):
So when they put in the Great Barrier
Reef Marine Park, they
actually put trackers on
fishing vessels. And so when they looked
at where they were,
and they looked at what
areas like the reserves or the no take,
no research, no
nothing, reserves went in and
they wanted to increase it, they actually
noticed that the
fishers weren't even going
in and they weren't even going into that
area because they had

(01:24:21):
that tracking vessel. So
when they presented to the fishing
community, they're like at
first, before they laid the
track down, I remember him telling the
story, they're like, "Oh
yeah, this is where we want
to increase." They're like, "Whoa, whoa,
whoa, why are we
increasing there?" And they're
like, "Oh yeah, by the way, here's the
layer of where you guys
have been. You're not even in
that area." And they're all just like,
"Oh, well, okay, no
problem." It's perfect. So people,

(01:24:42):
there are times and situations where it
actually helps conservation.
Now that's not always going
to be the time. There's conflict
management. That's why you
bring in that fishing community
early on in the process, but there are
times when it can be really
helpful. Now we're looking at
technology and I know AIS is a very big
part of vessel
tracking. So it's a GPS system,

(01:25:04):
a very simple system that tracks and I've
worked on that data before
when I worked as a consultant
for the government. And it's a very
important thing in looking
at shipping lanes and where
people are going. Are they a Biden by it?
So forth. And then of
course, are they in marine
protected areas here in Canada when I
worked on it? But there's also a
difference. I think you can
turn it on and off whenever you want to
do, or there's ways to get

(01:25:24):
around it. And this kind of
goes into my next question because in a
2024 study that published
in Nature, which was led by
and led by Global Fishing Watch
researchers, and I've always wanted to
ask this question from you
guys. About 75% of the industrial fishing
fleet does not appear in
public monitoring systems,
which is insane to think about. You think

(01:25:47):
you have this technology, not always AIS,
but you have all this technology that you
can put on, but then you
find out that three quarters of
the industrial fishing fleet does not
actually use it. So how
can, like you mentioned before,
how can you track what you don't know?
Like how can you monitor what you don't
know? So I guess like
my question is like,
how can transpandemic technology shine a

(01:26:08):
light on the sort of the hidden
happenings around the ocean?
Like how do we increase that to 75% or
even more being tracked
instead of the opposite?
Yeah, flipping it. I guess, yeah, it
comes back to that point that we were
talking about at the start about,
Global Fishing Watch's purpose being to
flip from a closed
system to an open one. And

(01:26:30):
much of that activity to be clear, we're
not saying it's not tracked at all, it's
just not publicly
tracked. So much of that activity
is probably being tracked by closed
monitoring systems. Typically that's
vessel monitoring systems or VMFs.
And that data is shared between the
vessel itself and the flag state. That's
the country that has
allowed the vessel to go out and leave

(01:26:52):
and go into national waters.
And this is how traditional
kind of more old school vessel tracking
monitoring control
and surveillance works.
The tracking information is confidential.
It's only shared between
the vessel and the flag state.
And the theory is exactly as you said,
Andrew, it protects these kind of
commercial sensitivities,
such as good fishing spots, whilst

(01:27:12):
allowing the authorities
who are the ones ultimately
responsible to see what the vessel is
doing. But this means if somebody else
like me as the UK
port state, or you as the
coastal state giving a license for the
vessel to fish in a different spot, they
don't know what's happening.
They don't, they can't see it.
So they can take the vessel's word for

(01:27:33):
it, or they can contact the flag with all
those challenges that
we spoke about before.
And we have seen decades of industrial
fishing now and decades of
this happening on the high seas.
And in reality, what we are seeing is
that flag states are not able to
consistently meet the demand of these
inquiries that are coming.

(01:27:53):
And we at Global Fishing Watch have
worked with countries where we've seen
these requests go unanswered completely,
go unanswered for weeks, or people not
being able to get in
touch with the right contacts.
And we've also heard from flag states
that have said to us, it's so much better
when everything's public, because then
we're only contacted if there's a real
issue and then we can dedicate our
resources to figuring that out with

(01:28:15):
whoever's contacted us.
And we've also seen these kind of
unscrupulous operators looking to take
advantage of those issues and looking to
benefit themselves by exactly as you say
falsifying the information they provide,
pretending they're over here
when really they're only here.
And having multiple data sources, having

(01:28:35):
the VMS and the AIS allows you to cross
check and to compare and to
understand whether it issues.
And yeah, that's so important because we
know like the honor system doesn't work
anymore. We've seen that happen over and
over and over again. And it would have
been nice if it did work and then we
could just trust everybody.
And then maybe there'd be only a small
percentage of players, but 75% seems a

(01:28:57):
little sketchy. Like, why wouldn't you
want to know where you've been? Like, if
you're doing everything right, why
wouldn't you want to know?
And that's, I think that was what was
scariest to me. It was like 75% of that's
a lot. That's huge. And was it surprising
to the organization? Like, to you, like
just being like, holy cow, like I would
expect it under 50%, but 75, like the

(01:29:18):
majority, like by a lot.
I mean, you don't even get that many
people. I'm about, you know, I, we had a
federal election here recently and I
don't think we had 75% people come up to
vote. So imagine 75% of the people like
not even tracking their vessels.
Yeah, it was surprising. And I think it
really just reiterated the scale of the
issue and the seriousness with which

(01:29:38):
Global Fishing Watch needs to treat this
issue. And we use that in our
interventions at the UN, we use that in
our bilateral discussions that we have
with countries to really show like,
you might not think this is a huge
problem, but globally, this really is a
huge problem. And that argument continues
to surface, we need to protect our
special fishing spot that maybe like your

(01:29:59):
grandfather found or whatever that might
be. But in reality,
that is quite outdated now.
Other technologies, not just tracking
technologies, yeah, have changed so much,
right? You can find huge scores of fish
more quickly than you've ever been able
to before. And so many locations are
broadcast, as you say, via AIS for safety
reasons, this concept of the secret

(01:30:21):
fishing spot or the perfect fishing spot
that others don't know about.
You know, of course, there are
exceptions, but generally, it's not
really a reality anymore. Plus, you know,
our Global Fishing Watch, as I said, from
the outset, you know, if activities
occurring, you know, in a common area on
a common resource, we think
it should be common knowledge.
Yeah, and it's also it's like, it's with
especially within, I mean, there's

(01:30:43):
there's also the difference between like
within the exclusive economic zones and
outside, I mean, especially within the
exclusive economic zone, it's a natural
resource for that country, the citizens
of that country should have access.
And then people and organizations such as
Global Fishing Watch and yourself can
come out and say, Hey, look, we
specialize in this, right? We look at
this, we'll take this data and we'll do

(01:31:03):
analysis on this, we'll see where people
go and we'll give you the information,
probably as a benefit to those countries
to have the specialists.
I mean, Global Fishing Watch is literally
global, you guys are all around the
world, you know, and spaced all around
the world. So you understand sort of the
different contexts and nuances of each
country and where you live and the
regions in which where you live.

(01:31:24):
So you have that specialist group to be
able to take that data that's available
publicly, provide that analysis to the
country and just be like, Hey, look, you
know, we want to help you.
And I guess at least to my next question
is like, how is Global Fishing Watch, you
know, working with other countries and
governments to
mainstream vessel tracking?
I know we talked a little bit about how

(01:31:45):
you work with countries before, but yes,
to mainstream vessel tracking, it's got
to be a bit of a challenge because like I
said before, there are some countries who
may not even have it
available or may not.
And some just may not make it public,
which might be a little easier. So how do
you get through that into
mainstream that vessel tracking?
Yeah, you're right. We work with a number

(01:32:06):
of countries and the most important thing
really is country context. We're, you
know, an international team, a global
team of experts on vessel tracking, but
we're not a global team of experts on
vessel tracking in Senegal or in the UK
or Canada or in Ghana or
in the Marshall Islands.
That country context is really important.

(01:32:28):
So everything has got to be a partnership
with the governments that we're working
with. We really need to understand why
their system was developed the way it
was, if it's meeting their needs, what
their challenges are.
And we do that through a combination of
learning from the government, working
with them, really digging deep into
understanding how they work with partners
on the ground, with other nonprofits,

(01:32:49):
with researchers, with local universities
and with people that we hire into Global Fishing Watch.
And we hire into Global Fishing Watch to
work on projects that perhaps have worked
in that country for a number of years.
And a really significant portion of the
work that we do as an organization with
countries is specifically
focused on vessel tracking.
So we help countries to review their
policies around vessel tracking. Does

(01:33:11):
your legislation meet the needs that you
have? Do your regulations have the
requirements that you need? Are they out
of date? Could they be updated?
Is there a week or a week wording which
bad actors could take advantage of? And
we go to the country and we spend time
there and we go through normally a week
long process to co-develop a program of

(01:33:31):
work that really looks at all the
different challenges and makes
recommendations on how public vessel
tracking could help them.
But you've got to meet them where they
are, right? You can't be going and making
recommendations for like a platinum
system when the fundamentals aren't in
place. So that does
vary country to country.

(01:33:51):
And one thing that we have really learned
throughout our kind of last number of
years working with countries on this is
that AIS, that automatic identification
system technology, is really valued by a
lot of countries for
its cost effectiveness.
So vessel monitoring systems, VMS, pretty
expensive and lots of countries, they

(01:34:13):
have it and they don't pay for it. So
therefore it's not getting used or they
don't have it at all.
Whereas AIS, much more reasonably priced,
much more affordable, whilst it may not
be perfect, meeting a country where they
are, they have nothing, this is something
and we start with them there.
And then kind of taking that one step
further, we often support them to engage

(01:34:35):
in regional and international discussions
on vessel tracking that perhaps they
might not have been paying attention to
or been able to be engaged with before.
And that's a lot of kind of learning from
others, sharing experiences, discussing
challenges and requesting help from the
international community where they think
they could benefit. And so far, this has
been pretty successful.
Yeah, absolutely. And I love that to see

(01:34:58):
more countries being interested in and I
do get the fact that there are some
countries who just need to just a little
help to get up above and let's just start
with tracking in general, get the basic
information, which is location.
You know, there's an as it as it's
somebody who's involved in GIS loves maps
and visual learner as many of us are to

(01:35:19):
be able to see those stories develop and
to be able to see where people are going
and and to find out when people are going
at certain times and so forth and to be
like, look, this is a big fishing spot,
but it's around this area.
Why is it around this area? And you can
really collate a lot of science around
that and a lot of research
around that. So I do love that.
I love that. Now, obviously, vessel
tracking is is one part. It's a big

(01:35:40):
significant part, especially with that
2024 study that was led by
Google Watch looking at that.
But there's also other things that have
come up in the past where especially when
we're looking at illegal fishing and you
mentioned it earlier is tracking who
benefits from the profits of selling this
fish, these fish, whether they're legally
caught or illegally caught like just a

(01:36:02):
registry of owners of not only vessels,
but like the owners of the of who's
getting the final profit of it all
because there are there have been stories
have come out that we've covered on this
podcast where we're
looking at illegal fishing.
There was one vessel in particular who
who went through like decades long
reputation of going into ports under

(01:36:23):
different flags and then being going in
when they finally caught
it, they caught the vessel.
They couldn't track who was to like who
owned it and it was over a lot. It got
into a lot of not only politics, but
there was like organized crime involved
and things like that.
And it's it's it gets very complex. So
tracking the vessel is one thing. It's

(01:36:44):
obviously a very important thing
physically. It's like the
basic thing that we need.
But then when we track who profits off of
this, how is that how is that research or
that program going as is global fishing
watch involved in that as well? And how
is that where are we at
with that type of of tracking?

(01:37:04):
Yeah, global fishing, which is definitely
involved in that. I'd say those are our
kind of two. Those are two of our three
big policy areas that we focus on
internationally. And that is because
they're just big
international gaps on these topics.
And so we're talking about the
one that we look at is the
interoperability of data and the
standards of data, much more technical,

(01:37:26):
but those are our three big areas. And
ownership is probably the furthest behind
needs the most amount of
attention and leadership.
And so we're seeing lots of people
embrace tracking transparency and data
quality measures. We're not really
seeing, you know, country after country
coming forward and
publishing their ownership data.

(01:37:48):
And in some cases, we're seeing, you
know, restrictions of that data and
tightening of data privacy rules to cover
commercially sensitive information that
the country considers
commercially sensitive.
And it is a real challenge because as you
mentioned, you know, there's so many
loopholes that you're smart unscrupulous
operators can use to their advantage.
They can change the name, they can change

(01:38:08):
the flag, they can call in one port and
then another and you
know, leave and what happens.
Nobody knows who they are. And then
finally, you say you get to who's been
doing the bad behavior. You wish you a
huge fine. It goes through your courts
loads of work on your behalf. And all you
have is the operator who of
course can't pay that fine.
You know, manning a fishing vessel that's

(01:38:30):
not, you don't get the fine. You don't
get the satisfaction or the sanction.
And, you know, the owner's not deterred.
They just do it again
with a different vessel.
So we really do need transparency of
beneficial ownership information. There
is a route for it with the United
Nations. As I mentioned before, this
global record has a space in this app.

(01:38:51):
It's essentially an app to
upload all of this information.
But we just need leadership from
countries to navigate the data privacy
rules interpret how that can be shared
and commit to sharing that information.
And I'm sure that's that's not an easy
thing. You know, we know the process, but
just the fact of just displaying, you
know, information like financial

(01:39:12):
information from private companies is is
a problem within itself.
Maybe from publicly traded companies, you
can you can start to install those types
of measures and policies, but from a
private company who they don't really
want you to see their books all the time
for a number of different reasons.
You know, it could be it could be very
challenging. So hopefully we can get
further and further on that. And

(01:39:33):
obviously, we're we're at the beginning
stages. But I love the fact that, you
know, the vessel tracking is getting up.
Countries are interested. Same with data
interoperability, like trying to be able
to make sure we have the same standards
and we're all comparing at the same rate.
I think it's great because, you know,
it's one ocean. So we should be talking
about one one type of fisheries.
Now, I know the the ocean conference just

(01:39:55):
the ocean conference just wrapped up in
Busan, South Korea. And, you know, we're
now looking forward to we're just about
to go into the UN Ocean Conference, the
ocean decade conference in these France,
which I hope to be there.
Hopefully, I'll be great.
So what are the main takeaways from from
Busan? And how can we push that into the

(01:40:17):
our ocean decade conference?
Yeah, so I think that all these kind of
international conferences events like the
Irish and conference, the United Nation
Ocean Conference, they're really
important to ocean conservation because
they serve as, I guess, a platform for
optimism, they are a place where people,
they're celebrated for the
good work that they're doing.

(01:40:38):
And they create this momentum around a
topic or an issue and stakeholders go and
they feel that and they want to be a part
of that and they want to have something
to contribute and to be
celebrated for themselves.
And this environment leads to a lot of
country commitments, you know, government
standing on stage and promising that x
square kilometers of ocean will be

(01:41:00):
protected or why fisheries data will be
published. And this might sound a little
bit empty, but it's really important
because without it, we can easily fall
into a space where countries are very
domestically focused, they don't feel any
external pressure to
keep following the curve.
And therefore, you know, they're
perfectly happy if lots of people are

(01:41:21):
doing that and they're just staying in
their lane. And so these conferences can
really bring people along on a
progressive journey that, you know, those
countries might not have
done anything at all otherwise.
And coming out of Busan, the most
exciting commitment from Global Fishing
Watches perspective was made by Panama.
Panama announced that they will improve
the transparency and accessibility of

(01:41:42):
their ultimate beneficial ownership data
for the international fishing fleet.
And that's really significant because
Panama has hundreds of vessels operate
all around the world and they're going to
be publishing a list of those owners. And
that means that decision makers will have
access to that when they need it, not,
you know, months later.

(01:42:02):
And so if there is an issue, it is the
actual beneficiary that will be
sanctioned, not the operators as we spoke
about owners aren't able to kind of hide
behind all these different structures.
It's clear this is the owner.
And decision makers can use that
information as part of their risk
assessment criteria. You know, we spoke
before about, hmm, I've had an issue with

(01:42:23):
this odor in the past, maybe I'm going to
prioritize looking at all the other
vessels that are
owned by the same person.
Yeah. And, you know, maybe I'm not going
to grant them a license or maybe I'm
going to board and inspect.
And Panama's leadership on this issue is
is so much more valuable than just for
the Panamanian fleet, because others will
follow suit, right? They're standing up

(01:42:43):
and they're leading and
it creates this momentum.
That's what I hope we can take from Busan
into Nise. I hope that we can get to
others talking about the topic and others
considering these kind of common areas of
pushback that this is like really
resource intensive to do.

(01:43:21):
And I think that's what we're going to do. And I think that's what we're going to do. Yeah, and you're right. These conferences, international conference, we
do see, you know, big press conferences
on commitments that people make. And I
do, I agree with you that we can, it
allows us to hold them accountable, you
know, it allows us and
it even gives, I'm sure,

(01:43:50):
an organization like Global Fishing Watch
to be like, Oh, hey, we'd like to work
with you to help you get there. You know, here's our experience and then we can help you. And then I think that's a great way to do it. But there's a lot of events that go on during these international conferences. How does Global Fishing Watch work?
And like, are you speaking with
representatives from different countries,

(01:44:12):
either through past contacts or meeting
new contacts? Like, what's the approach?
I always talk about going to a conference and everybody's got to have a strategy when you get there. I'm sure Global Fishing Watch does the same thing. What's the strategy when you approach these international conferences? And I think that's a great way to do it.
My colleague, my colleagues will be a
nice, yeah. Our CEO, our chief program

(01:44:34):
officer and representatives from the
International Policy Team will definitely
be a nice. Yeah, it's a good question. I think there's two approaches. One is kind of turn up and speak to as many people as possible. Yeah. And the second is, you know, I think the first thing I'd like to do is to talk about the international conference.
Yeah, it's a good question. I think
there's two approaches. One is kind of
turn up and speak to as many people as
possible. Yeah. And the second is 99% of
the work is done before you even get on
the flight and we kind of take that that
second approach. We start prepping

(01:44:56):
probably at least four or five months
before the conference. We're working
normally with the conference organizers
to see if there's anything we can do to
help with the agenda,
suggesting speakers,
suggesting that we've been working with
this country and they've got something
really exciting. They might want to talk
about in this plenary session or we've

(01:45:17):
seen this latest development. It might
make a really good case study for a side
event. We would also be supporting the
countries that we work with to navigate
this as well, putting together a briefing
pack, going through all the sessions,
making sure the country can really make
the most and talk about the stuff that
we've been doing together in the international conference.
And so we're working together in each of

(01:45:38):
the four that's relevant, perhaps helping
to prepare speeches, things like that and
reviewing those announcements, suggesting
where it could be strengthened or made
more exciting, more bulletproof.
And then we're also looking at working on
a plan for how that commitment is going

(01:45:58):
to be implemented so that the government
feels confident going in that they know
the commitment is solid.
They have a plan for doing it.
But yeah, it's really exciting. It can be
a lot of firefighting right at the very
last minute. You know, ministers change,
language requirements change, it's very
varied, but it's a really cool part of

(01:46:18):
international policy work.
I love it. I think it's I think it's
really important. And I think, you know,
I'm glad you were able to come on the
podcast today. Very happy to be able to
discuss policy. It's not something that
we have to talk about all the time. A lot
of time when Ocean hits the news, it's
with an animal and, you
know, fun things that happen.
Or like, you know, recently, I think it
was a couple months ago, a kayaker got

(01:46:38):
swallowed up by a humpback or something
like that. You know, you get news like
that. But you don't get news in terms of
what happens at these conferences, how
organizations approach these conferences.
You know, my goal is to get as many
interviews as possible when I go to these
these places and to find out as much
information as possible, what's what's
happening there. But I mean, that's a
it's an important aspect. You know, these
international conferences are important.

(01:47:01):
They play a big role in international
work that's done after those conferences.
And like I said, holding countries
accountable and negotiating with
countries to help them out and building
your building your networks and building,
you know, your frameworks for the future.
So, Courtney, I want to thank you so much
for spending time with me today and
spending time with us at the audience to
let us know not only what you and Global

(01:47:21):
Fishing Watch do, but also what is on par
for these these conferences and what has
happened at the Our Ocean Conference.
So I think it's really, really important.
So thank you so much for joining us on
today's episode. No, thank you so much
for having me, Andrew. It's been a
pleasure. Thank you, Courtney, for
joining us on today's episode of the How
It was great to be able to discuss what

(01:47:42):
Global Fishing Watch does as well as the
policies that they work on, the
technology that they're working on, where
technology is and where it needs to be
and how it's being used is such an
important part to tackle
overfishing on a global scale.
And I think having an organization that's
only 10 years old and being able to be a
prominent figure in that world and having
countries come to you for help is such a

(01:48:04):
testament to how well they've done over
that time when a new organization comes
in, especially looking at fishing.
A lot of people may see, oh, they're the
overseers. They're gonna out people.
They're gonna be more of an advocacy and
activism organization. Then they come out
and they say, no, this is what we do. And
they show people, they execute what they
do and how well they perform.
And they just go show now where they're
at a point where countries are coming to

(01:48:25):
them like, hey, you know, we're here,
you're working on, you know, transparency
and fishing vessel tracking. Hey, can we
find out how you're doing that? Because,
you know, we have these policies and we
want to make sure that we're doing it
properly and you've been working on it.
They've specialized in it.
I can't tell you enough how little
resources some countries have, even
including Canada, my own. We don't have a
lot of staff when it comes to government
and, you know, governments like to cut so

(01:48:47):
they lower their resources. So we don't
have a lot of people with eyes on fishing
and trying to combat overfishing here in
Canada, as well as other places in the
world and other countries in the world.
And so it's difficult to be able to just
have people do it and have those
resources do it. You need technology to
help you out. And that's what we
discussed here. And I thought I was
addressing very, very well. I'm very
enthusiastic about what can become and

(01:49:09):
how AI and data learning and machine
learning is working to help address
things quickly and appropriately.
So that's going to be a lot of fun. So if
you have any questions or comments, you
can leave in the comments below. And if
you're watching this on YouTube or you
can DM me at how to protect the ocean on
Instagram. That's at
how to protect the ocean.
Or you can go to our speak up for blue
dot com site, hit the contact us, send me
an email. I'd love to hear from you. It

(01:49:30):
goes right to my personal email. I'll
answer back within a week because I do
get a lot of emails and I'm busy, but I
would love to chat with you. That's the
whole point there. So thank you so much.
I do appreciate you listening. I do
appreciate you joining us and I'll put
all the links to Google fishing watch
that you need to learn about. And I want
to thank you for joining me on today's
episode of the how to protect the ocean
podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from
the true North strong and free. Have a

(01:49:51):
great day. We'll talk to you next time
and have a conservation.

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