November 6, 2024 • 36 mins
Olivia Shortt is a classically trained saxophonist and multi-disciplinary artist known for their bright, bold performance attire, experimental music and immersive experiences that invite the audience to interpret and engage with the art. In this conversation with host Melissa Gismondi, Shortt talks about the rematriation/repatriation of Indigenous artifacts as well their diverse influences—from an exploration of the "weird" to Meatloaf to Indigenous trickster figures. As the JHI’s 2023-24 Artist in Residence, Shortt worked on an immersive opera focusing on the rematriation/repatriation of cultural objects and ancestors as well as the conversation between institutions and Indigenous communities. Shortt’s work aims to create spaces for dialogue and reflection on the historical and ongoing impact of colonialism and efforts to reclaim Indigenous histories and identities.
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(00:01):
(gentle droning music)
- When artist and musicianOlivia Shortt tells a story,
they do it with the helpof their baritone saxophone
and a few other things.
- I'm working with a loop pedal,
so I have a piece of hardware,
and then, I'm also usingmy voice and a couple of...
(00:24):
Literally a toy,
I have this, like, littleapple toy from Fisher-Price,
that's the jingling you kindof hear partway into that.
And then, as well as a fan. (laughs)
It's kind of like a swoosh sound
that kind of clicks at the end.
(gentle droning music)
- But for Olivia, a classicallytrained saxophonist,
music isn't just about what you hear.
(00:47):
They're known for their bright,bold performance attire,
and for this show inthe basement of Wenona,
a small bar in downtown Toronto,
Olivia was decked out ina shiny silver jacket,
sparkly blue pants, and asequined Pink Panther T-shirt.
- Especially coming fromtraining in classical music,
(01:08):
you know, you are thinkingso much about sound
and this invisible thingthat is filling the space,
but I think other aspects ofstorytelling can be about,
like, what you're wearing,
or just, like, what you'representing visually.
Just...
It's the things I love,
I love sequins, I love sparkles,
I love bright colours, I love patterns,
(01:28):
I also like to work withIndigenous designers when I can,
but I really...
I love dressing up in clothes and makeup
and doing weird stuff withmyself when I can. (laughs)
- Olivia Shortt wasthe Artist in Residence
at the Jackman HumanitiesInstitute from 2023 to 2024.
A member of the Nipissing FirstNation, they're a vocalist,
(01:51):
composer, noisemaker,improviser, sound designer,
video artist, drag artist, curator,
and self-described weirdo.
When it comes to theirfirst love, the saxophone,
you could say that it was a match made
in elementary school heaven.
(playful horn music)
(02:12):
- I think I remember being in grade six
and, you know, the middleschool doing sort of, like,
an instrument parade,and showing us, like...
Different students wereplaying their instrument
as they kind of went past,
and we got to see what they sounded like,
and I was just like,"Wow, that's really shiny,
and it has a lot of buttons,and it can do a lot of things."
And it just felt like avery powerful instrument.
(02:34):
I don't think a lot ofpeople wanted to play it,
you know, any time I've done teaching,
I always see the baritonesax in the corner
and I'm just like,
"Don't worry, someone willcome for you." (laughs)
- You'll find your...
Well, I mean, I can relate,
'cause in middle school, Iwanted to play the bass guitar,
and I got the baritone saxophone.
- Yeah. (laughs)
- I think no one else wanted it,
and there was eight kidswho wanted the bass guitar,
(02:54):
so... (laughs)
- Yeah, sounds about right.
(playful horn music)
But yeah, it's thisweird instrument that...
It...
You know, I use the word weird,
but I mean that in a really good way.
For me, weird is this, like, fun thing,
it's kind of like exploringwhat isn't necessarily, like,
mainstream or more conventional
or what people kind of expect.
(03:15):
Yeah, it's this oddball instrument
that really allows for exploration,
and it doesn't reallyfit in anywhere in a way.
Like, yes, you see it in jazz,
yes, you see it in experimental things,
but, like, it doesn'treally technically fit in,
it came so late to the game.
- It was in 1846, is thatright? When it was invented?
- Yeah. Or patented, Ithink, around that time,
(03:37):
and while, you know,the violin, for example,
has hundreds of years of repertoire
and ways of approaching it, and...
The saxophone still feels new.
(relaxed hip-hop music)
- I'm Melissa Gismondi, andthis is "Humanities at Large"
from the Jackman Humanities Institute
at the University of Toronto.
(03:59):
Over the course of this season,
I've been exploring the theme of absence
through the work of JHI researchers.
(relaxed hip-hop music)
Later in the show, you'llhear about an opera
Olivia's been working on,
which has to do with theabsence of artifacts,
sacred belongings takenfrom Indigenous communities
that are being held by museumsand other institutions.
(04:21):
(relaxed hip-hop music)
But first, I asked Oliviaabout the relationship
between absence, music, and storytelling.
- For me, especially with music, you know,
we talk about absence as silence
and that that is part of music,
the space where therearen't necessarily notes
or something being heard,
but the fact is, you'realways hearing something
(04:44):
when you're listening to music,
whether there's a note onthe saxophone, or the piano,
or, you know, a hit of the drum,
or there's a space, which is...
In western music, you'll seea symbol for that, a rest.
So I've always thought of absence
kind of like silence in a way,
or just the lack ofcertain things happening,
or just breathing almost, like,
(05:06):
the breath in-between things.
But I also think about it as space
for the audience to kindof find themselves in,
that in a lot of storytelling, you know,
there can be a really directroute of offering a story
where it's like, "Here's how it started,
here's your characters,
(05:26):
this is your location,this is the problem,
this is how it's resolved."
And I like the absenceof some of those things,
it's kind of like going to an art gallery
and you're just looking at a piece of art,
like, you see what you see,
and you will interpretwhat you interpret from it,
but it's not necessarily...
Unless you're on a tour,
(05:47):
you don't necessarilyhave someone dictating,
or that artist dictating to you, like,
"This is what this means,and this is what this is,"
and telling you all these little things.
Sometimes you're just lookingat a piece of art and going,
"I don't know anything, butI'm a person who has lived
and have experience as abeing in this universe,"
like, "What do I get fromthis? What do I interpret?"
Because sometimes, yeah, what I do
(06:08):
doesn't always make sense to others
and I think that's great.I think that's really cool.
And I kind of like whenpeople have questions
at the end, they're like,"Why were you doing that?"
I'm like, "Great, I lovethis question. This is cool."
What prompts you to ask that?
Like, what is it you'reactually asking, or...
You know, it just makes people think,
so I really like that,
and I think that's importantfor my work at least.
(06:33):
So I was talking to my therapist today
mostly about friendships.
We were chatting about this a lot
because I've had somefriendships that have ended.
(distant clattering)
So I was talking to my therapist today...
And in talking to my therapist, you know,
we started breaking downthese moments, and...
- So the piece we just heard,
(06:53):
and we heard a piece of that there,
it opens with you telling astory, which you then loop
and layer over and over,
and this story is about a kind of absence,
and more specifically, thebreakdown of a friendship.
Why was that a topicyou wanted to explore?
- That was literally...
I had a therapy session that day, like,
that day of that performance at Wenona,
(07:15):
and it was just what was on my mind,
and it felt really relevant,
and, you know, I'm aperson of the Internet,
I like to engage with otherpeople's content there,
so I had also seen a bunch ofpeople kind of talking about,
you know, the loss of friendships, and...
Because so much, you know, in media,
and a lot of art, we talk about, like,
(07:36):
very intimate relationships,
whether it's, like, there'ssomeone you're married to,
or common law partner,or, you know, whatever...
However you describe it,
but that relationships of all kinds
can be really valuableand important, and...
So that was just...
It was really just somethingthat was on my mind that day.
(Olivia vocalizing)
(08:07):
- We hear the anguishbuilding as the piece unfolds,
both in the instruments you play
as well as in your vocals,
and there was a person in the audience
who really connected with the performance,
and here's a clip of whatthey had to say about it.
- Yeah, for me, I, you know,
I had a very hard day
because I had a very weird conversation
(08:28):
with a former friendof mine, which I lost,
it was very weird, very painful,
and I think the music expressedthat something is just,
like, so dis-harmonic,
but in a way that you can listen to it
and that it reflects, somehow,something of your soul,
what your soul has to deal with right now,
(08:50):
like, I think this is how it felt for me,
and it was somehow for me, very relieving,
very beautiful, very intense,
very, very, like, you know, special.
- That's really sweet. Oh, my god.
- What does it mean toyou to hear that clip
and to get that kind ofresponse to your art?
(09:14):
- Yeah, I don't always getthose sort of really...
I guess it feels intimate,like, to hear it,
to hear what they felt, like...
(indistinct)
Oftentimes, you know, you're in the midst
of packing up everything,
you're dealing withgetting yourself off-stage
and getting all your things out,
and so it's actually kind of nice
to have it documented in this way
and to hear someone talking more in-depth
(09:36):
about what it meant,
and it's actually kind of nice to hear
because also I'm listening, I'm like,
"Yeah, yeah, that's kindof what I was trying to do,
that's, like..."
You know, people don't alwaysget everything I'm doing,
and that's great,
and some people, like,get right to the point,
and this person really, like, hit every...
Like, hit the nail on the head, and...
So this was really nice.
(09:56):
(relaxed hip-hop music)
- It was amazing to seethe kind of audience impact
that Olivia could havewith just their voice,
their saxophone, and a few noisemakers.
But during their residence at the JHI,
Olivia was working onsomething much bigger in scale.
(10:18):
"The Museum of Lost and Found,"
subtitled "Gaakaazootaadiwag,"
is a site-specific multidisciplinary opera
that they wrote, produced,and are performing in.
The opera's narrativeexplores the issue of museums
and repatriation, the processof returning cultural property
(10:38):
to its place of origin.
Specifically, it focuses onitems and ancestral remains
that were taken fromIndigenous communities,
and the conversationsunfolding around their return.
- You know, I was tryingto create this large scale,
site-specific piece thatinteracts with the space it's in,
(11:00):
but it's sort of absurdist,
using elements of, like, surrealism,
fragmentation, sort of the absence
of a really direct narrativefor the storytelling,
and, you know, the text that you do hear
is a combination of either spoken
or sung by some of the characters.
(11:22):
- We're already at our first exhibit.
If you look to your left,
you'll see the firstartifacts on our tour.
(gentle string music)
Every tour is a little bitdifferent, so stay focused,
or we might lose you.
(gentle string music)
Maybe you'll need...
- You know, it is on thetopic of repatriation,
of cultural items, objects,as well as ancestors,
(11:46):
and, you know, whatthat conversation means,
not only for the institutiondealing with that at the time,
but for the community that those items
or ancestors might go home to.
I'm trying to learnmore about rematriation
in addition to repatriation,
'cause there's more inrematriation about like, you know,
(12:10):
thinking about Indigenous protocols
and also kind of thinkingabout the processes
of the specific land and territory,
and it's a really complicatedthing, and I don't wanna-
- As opposed to, like,repatriation would be,
"Okay, here are, you know,Western colonial laws,
so we're gonna approach the'giving-the-object-back'
(12:32):
under that logic and that mentality,"
Is that right?- Yeah, it's a lot...
It's very Western, colonial,you know, there's all these...
I'll talk...
I'll just mention alittle bit about the U.S.,
because that's where myinitial workshop happened,
and some of my research was focused.
NAGPRA, which is theNative American Graves
Protection and RepatriationAct, it's from 1990,
(12:54):
and it's one of these lawsthat was created to...
It was...
It's supposed to help, and it's...
The thing is, when itwas initially started,
I don't think people werereally enforcing it, you know,
it's like, "Yay, we didit, return your stuff!"
And then, it's just...
That didn't happen.
It's been more recent, I would say,
in the last, like, decade,
that some institutions havebeen doing the work to, like...
(13:17):
To send items home, tosend ancestors home,
but it's very complicated,not only 'cause,
you know, there's the financial toll,
the emotional toll,
but also just in general,as a point of interest,
is that a lot of these items and ancestors
were poorly-labeled, incorrectly labeled.
Sometimes, institutionsdon't know how to find out
(13:41):
where they should go home,even, like, through deep study,
it's like, "Well..."
You know, maybe there's a number of,
say, Abenaki communitieswho are saying, like,
"We would like these..."
You know, maybe it's a vase,
a specific set of vases orsomething, to come home.
You don't necessarily know
which specific community to send it to,
so then, you have to have thisdiscussion with all of them
(14:02):
to say, like, "Hey, okay,how should we approach this?"
But that doesn't always happen
in a really good-intentioned way,
and so, you know, I'm trying to look
at the work of Robin Gray,
who's doing a lot ofwork with rematriation,
specifically at the University of Toronto,
but yeah, it's very much,like, Indigenous-led,
but it's often led by women,
(14:22):
and, like, thinking aboutIndigenous feminism,
and still something thatI'm kind of figuring out,
and how to talk about it in this work,
but at the core, this is about,
"How do we talk about this?"
Right now, it's still a...
Very much a, like, TurtleIsland, North America context
because if anyone is into this topic,
(14:45):
and you read about what'shappening in other countries,
or, like, any parts of Europe,
you know, countries likeFrance are a lot stricter,
and don't really wanna let go
of a lot of these objects orancestors, for the matter.
You know, there's some museums
who don't necessarily believe in this,
and don't want to return,
and so, that's another aspectof this whole conversation.
(15:08):
- Just to note, in early 2024,
new regulations under NAGPRA,
again, that's the Native American Graves
Protection and Repatriation Act,
came into effect in the U.S.,
requiring institutions toget permission from tribes
to display human remainsand cultural objects.
As a result, many museumsand galleries across the U.S.
(15:32):
have closed their Indigenous exhibits.
In Canada, there's no federal legislation
regarding repatriation.
It's up to individual museumsto come up with a policy,
and consider requestson a case-by-case basis.
So here in Canada, museums currently hold
more than 6 million artifactsfrom Indigenous nations,
(15:55):
including, as we were talking about,
the remains of ancestors,
and I think this might seemlike an obvious question,
and I know you can't speak for everyone,
but I wonder if, asyou're sort of researching
and thinking about this,
and connecting with the topic,
if you can talk a bit aboutthe impact of this absence.
Like, what imprint itleaves behind, do you think?
(16:16):
- Yeah.
What I kept reading about,
and especially, I was readingabout a lot of cases out West,
like, with Haida Gwaii,was that, you know,
thinking about objects having histories,
and that, you know, you dokind of imprint a history
onto the things thatare part of your life,
(16:36):
like, even if you don't think of them
as, like, sentient things,like, even thinking for me,
like, I think about the saxophone I play,
I've played that saxophone for years,
and it has traveled tomany places with me,
and, like, it has its ownlittle nicks, and scratches,
and dents from things that have happened,
and thinking about how muchhistory it holds as an object.
(17:00):
Yes, it is a piece of metal,
but it also is a containerfor these histories,
and that was sort of the thing
I was seeing time and time again
from sort of people talkingabout these case studies,
and what it meant when they were able
to bring cultural items home
(17:20):
or their own ancestors home,
knowing that not only,especially with their ancestors,
that someone could come home
and be buried properly with ceremony
and the protocols of their own community,
but that with cultural items,
it's, like, a part of yourhistory is coming home
in a physical sense, but also, just, like,
all the history carried in that object,
(17:42):
and that's something that hasreally stuck with me in this,
is just...
Especially for people
just trying to heal froma lot of colonial trauma,
and intergenerational trauma,
and reclaiming your culture,reclaiming language,
it's a part of a healing process.
(18:02):
You'll see different institutions
who've had really successfulprocesses, like, they...
Inviting a specific communityto their institution,
being able to do the ceremoniesthere, being able to...
Like, if it's your ancestor bringing
someone home who's been awayfor a long time, it's...
That's huge. (laughs)
That's huge for healing.
(18:23):
Yeah.
- So I know you wrote the libretto,
are you performing in it?
Like, will you perform
in all the differentsite-specific performances?
- At the moment, yes, I am in it,
and that is sort of the nature,
sometimes, of self-producing, you're like,
"I'll just do 20 jobs," as manyartists will know. (laughs)
Yeah, I ended up...
(18:44):
I have this character,
and it's kind of relatedto my solo practice.
I've named them Nina Boujee,which is a play on Nanabozho,
which is the trickster character,
and I find having a characterthat I can kind of...
(laughs) It's not just venting,
but being able to bereally blunt about stuff
(19:07):
where you're like,
"Yeah, I'm gonna givea land acknowledgement,
but I'm also gonna say a bunch of stuff
about the specific institution,
and call them out at their ownfestival, you know?" (laughs)
And talk about their own history,
and it's sometimeseasier, at least for me,
and this is where I'm not atrained actor or anything,
but I really relate to theatre people
(19:28):
because I'm like, "Oh,yeah, you just, like..."
It is you, but it's also not you,
so it's a place where Ican feel really comfortable
saying these really directofferings to the audience,
but yeah, I am performing in it currently
as Nina Boujee in anon-singing role. (laughs)
- So I've seen...
(19:49):
I saw an event listening,
'cause Nina Boujee, it'sa recurring character.
I saw a listing thatdescribed Nina Boujee as a,
quote, "Weird, drag-adjacent,two-spirit trickster friend
who is always ready to stir upchaotic energy in the room."
Is that an accuratedescription, do you think?
- Yes, I wrote that description. (laughs)
- You wrote that. There you go.
(people laughing)
(20:11):
(indistinct)
- The monster under your bed is real.
The monster under your bed is real.
The monster under your bed is real.
(20:31):
- As Olivia mentioned,this recurring character,
a kind of alter ego named Nina Boujee,
is a play on a trickster figure
from traditional Anishinaabe storytelling.
I asked Olivia what itis about this figure
that inspires them.
- In a lot of communities,there's a trickster character.
(20:51):
For us, you know, like,Nanabozho is often a rabbit,
but not always.
If anyone has ever goneto the Wisakedjak festival
that Native Earth Performing Arts does,
they have a cutout of a coyote,
and Wisakedjak is the Cree trick...
Cree version of the trickster,
and it's this characterthat isn't necessarily good,
(21:15):
but they're not necessarily bad,
and I sort of like that idea
of this character that is doing things,
sometimes, it's to help,
sometimes, it's for theirown self-indulgence,
you know, they're self-centered,
but I love that there'salways this aspect of,
with the stories around the trickster,
(21:36):
that there's something to learn from them,
even if it's not them teaching you it,
it's through an action they've done,
and I think that's really why, like...
It's like, "Oh, yeah,Nina is Nanabozho, and..."
Sort of. Like, sort ofa Nanabozho character.
You can talk to a lot ofpeople with this character,
(21:59):
even if they don'tnecessarily agree with you,
whether it's, like,politically, or spiritually,
or, I don't know, emotionally. (laughs)
You don't have to agree on things,
but you can take a lotfrom this character,
and that's kind of...
That's why.
- I wanna turn now totalk a bit about your path
to becoming the artist that you are today,
(22:20):
and we sort of started there,
so we'll come full circle a little bit.
You grew up in North Bay as an only child,
you've said you spent
a lot of time alone listening to music.
What were you listening to back then?
(Olivia laughing)
- I ended up with a lotof cassettes and CDs
from my mom and my uncle,
(22:41):
and then, my dad would sometimesbuy me something random,
and that would end upadded into the collection,
so, you know, we had thevery dramatic Meat Loaf,
listened to a lot of that.
I also...
I really...
I wish I could find this,
it was a powwow CD that my dad had,
and I would walk aroundthe house as a little kid
(23:03):
trying to mimic it, becausethere's some really...
I won't do it here because it's loud,
but there's this reallyhigh-pitched, loud...
They're kinda like, "Huh, huh,"
but, like, much higher. (laughs)
I also was listening to,like, Barenaked Ladies,
you know, the stuff my uncle had given me,
it was, like, Warren Zevon,
(23:24):
"Werewolf in London" was a classic,
ACDC, like, Muddy Waters, alot of older blues, I also...
My favourite cassette, Ithink it's from the '60s,
it's the "Hymn and Organ Dance Party,"
and there's no singing on it.
(23:47):
It's a collection of what Ifeel like are random songs,
but it's, like, I think,songs from the '50s and '60s.
"La Bamba" is on there,
"House of the Rising Sun" is on there,
and it's all done in this hymn and organ
with the vibrato turned up,
and once in a while,there's drum kit on it,
like, it's supposed to be a party mix,
(24:07):
but with a hymn and organ,
and I listened to that a lot.
(Melissa laughing)
- You...
Well, you mentioned Meat Loaf,
and, you know, ACDC, and that kind of...
What do you think it was
about that kind of musicthat connected for you?
- Well, Meat Loaf isvery dramatic. Meat Loaf-
- The theatricality.
(24:27):
- Oh, yeah. His music isreally well-orchestrated.
He has these huge ensembles of performers.
I love his voice, I thinkhe had a great voice.
There's also a lot ofstorytelling in his music,
like, often, if you get his albums,
there's these clips thatare not the music, it's...
You know, if I can remember part of it,
(24:49):
it's, like, him and thiswoman going back and forth,
like, "On this hot summer night,
would you offer your throat tothe wolf with the red roses?"
And you're like, "Whatdoes that even mean?"
- On a hot summer night,would you offer your throat
to the wolf with the red roses?
- Will he offer me his mouth?
(25:09):
- Yes.
- Will he offer me his teeth?
- Yes.
- But I loved it, I wasjust like, "Yes, I'm in."
And, you know, of course,
his stuff got turned into a musical,
and, like, he was always kind of working
in this sort of rock-operaway, and Warren Zevon,
again, another, like, very dramatic song
(25:30):
is just "Werewolves in London."
You know, there's literallyparts where he's going...
(Olivia mimicking wolf howling)
"Werewolves in London," and, like, it's...
Like, it's kinda ridiculous,
like, he talks about, you know,
a wolf murdering someone in the side,
you're like, "What is happening?"
- There's a lot of wolves, I'm thinking,
with Meat Loaf too, and...
- Oh, yeah.
(Melissa laughing)
(25:51):
With, like, ACDC and allthat, again, it was...
These bands were really good.
They really knew how toplay their instruments,
I think that was it,
they were just, like,absolutely incredible musicians,
and, you know, even thoughit's kinda, like, dad rock,
it's, like, really good dad rock. (laughs)
You're like, "This is the good stuff,"
you know, "This is the pre-,like, '90s, terrible dad rock."
(26:12):
(people laughing)
- Yeah.
And when did you know that you wanted
to sort of pursue a careerand a life as a musician?
How did that sort of come about for you?
- So when I went to study music,
I didn't really have a game plan,
it was, I finished high school,
I had realized at some point
I didn't wanna be a veterinarian.
(26:34):
- Was that your plan before?
- Yeah, when I was younger, you know,
like, middle school, earlyhigh school, I was like,
"Yeah, I'll do sciencesand math, and do..."
"Be a vet," and then, I realized
I don't really like those things,
and music just felt like theright thing to go and study,
and I had gone into a couple programs,
and I had lived in NorthBay almost my entire life,
(26:55):
I'd grown up there, and atthat point, it was just like,
"Well, I wanna be somewhere else."
And then, I went to Toronto,
and I hadn't really been toToronto much before that,
I think it'd been, like,once or twice maybe,
and I did my audition, andI met my potential teacher,
and just seeing the campusand the city, I was like,
(27:16):
"I think this is what is right for me,"
so I kinda just followed that,
which is very much acommon theme in my life,
is sort of following...
Trying to follow my intuitionand see what, like...
Now, it's a combination of,like, making sure it's, like,
"Does this match with my values?
Is this what I want to do?"
But also, just sometimes, it's like,
"Well, this feels likethe right thing to do,"
and that hasn't really ledme astray for the most part.
(27:39):
I think the reason I'mdrawn to experimental music
is very much related tohow I approach stuff,
because it's, "Let's just try stuff,
let's play, let's experiment,"
you can throw a bunchof things at the wall,
and see what feelsreally good by doing it,
and so, that's what...
Kind of a number
of these different sort ofmoments happened where...
(27:59):
I had mentioned Native EarthPerforming Arts earlier
'cause I feel like they'revery important to me,
and to kind of how I'vegone to this place,
because a previous managingdirector, Isaac Thomas,
he had reached out and goes,
"I heard you're working with dancers,
you should apply to the festival and..."
"The Wisakedjak festival, andyou should submit something,"
(28:20):
and I was just kinda like...
I hadn't really writtenmusic at this point,
I was like, "I don'tknow what I would make,
what am I gonna do?"
But then, it was just that thing of,
"Worst case, you apply, andthey say no, and that's okay."
So I applied, and they werelike, "You're in." (laughs)
- What year was this, would you say?
- That was 2017.
(28:43):
And then, also becauseI was sort of wanting
to do a bit of storytellingaround stuff with my family,
all I could think of
was I had all these cassettesthat I used to listen to,
and I was like, "How could Iwork with cassette players?"
And I was like, "I don't know,"
but, like, I ended up borrowing
eight different cassetteplayers, and then...
Again, I knew nothing, but Ibought blank cassette tapes,
(29:07):
I asked some friends to recordsome text I had written,
and just asked them tosay it in different ways.
I didn't know how to get the recording
from my laptop onto the cassette,
and I didn't know who to ask,
so I just went from,like, "Well, what if...?"
And I got a microphone, andI hung it over my laptop,
like the lo-fi dork I was at the time,
(29:31):
'cause I didn't know whatto do, and just was like,
"Whatever, it'll be, like,a spooky lo-fi effect,
I'll just do this,"
and that's how I initially,like, did all these cassettes,
and I was working with adancer named Kathleen...
(indistinct)
And we figured out, like, the choreography
of her pushing, you know,each cassette to play,
and then, dancing in reaction to it,
(29:53):
and I didn't know how to edit anything,
so I got Audacity, whichis a free software,
and I'm pretty sure I justwatched YouTube tutorials,
and then, clicked a bunch of things,
and I saw the effects tab and was like,
"Ooh, what do I do there?"
And just chopped it upand just tried stuff.
It did inspire somethingwhere I was like, "Okay,"
you know, I don't knowif it was a perfect piece
(30:14):
in any sense, there was definitelysome rough aspects to it,
but I was just like,
"Oh, this is definitely a starting point,"
and what ended up happening
is I just kept submitting the things,
and there was a quartet in NewYork that had a call in 2019,
they're the Jack Quartet,
and they work with a lot of famous people,
they're a very well-known quartet,
(30:35):
they do a lot of experimentaland classical, like, music
that gets, you know,
framed either as avant-garde or new music,
and they had a call, and I was just like,
"Why not? I'll justsubmit whatever." (laughs)
And all I had at the time, Ihad videos of these two pieces
I'd done at Wisakedjak,
(30:57):
and I think one video ofme playing and improvising,
and I was just like, "Well,this is what I have,"
and I got picked, which shocked me,
and was really a wonderful surprise.
You know, it was such a...
It's just, like, things kind of...
Not that they fell into place,
'cause, like, I had to apply,
and I had to do stuff inorder for it to happen,
(31:18):
but it was, like, just all these things
that kind of followed...
Or followed my intuition to be like,
"I think this is whereI'm supposed to be."
- I wanna close by justsort of talking about
sort of just where we are today,
in terms of arts and the arts landscape.
And so, as you weresaying, you know, it's...
Being an artist, trying tomake a living as an artist
(31:39):
can be piecemeal, like, a little bit here,
not knowing what the future holds,
I know it can be reallydifficult making plans
'cause, you know, it's...
Funding is always up in the air. (laughs)
I know there have beenincreases to arts funding
in this year's federal budget,
but it's still highly competitive,
and I know the processcan be really frustrating,
so for you, as someone working across
(31:59):
so many platforms and media,
I'm curious how youfeel about the vitality
of the arts landscape today,where we are right now.
- You know, I thinkthere is a lot of hope.
I think it can be easy tofeel sad about, you know,
(32:19):
funding, and whatever ishappening with arts councils,
because at least in Canada,
that's how a lot of artistsrely on making their work,
is by applying to Canada Council,
or Ontario, or wherever you live,
but then, you know, I read books where...
You know, I'm reading this book
on the last 50 years of video art history,
and it's by a curator atthe MoMA, Barbara London,
(32:42):
and it reminded me that I think
there's kinda these waves,and sort of an ebb and flow
of what is happeningeconomically in any country,
there's always been somekind of up and down,
and also, just even artists...
(33:03):
I think we should pay artists more.
I'm not advocating fordifficult artist life,
I think that is terrible,
and I think everybody needsto be paid way better,
but, you know, I was reading about,
like, Laurie Anderson working in New York,
in Manhattan, when youcould still be an artist
living in, like, GreenwichVillage or something,
and squatting in ahouse, and no one cared.
(33:25):
I don't think that'sa glamorous lifestyle,
but it does remind me that,
like, people often finda way to do things,
and whether it's you have your Joe job,
and you work at a coffeeshop during the day,
and then, that allows you at least...
You know, you pay rent,you get your groceries,
you can do your art,
or you're Laurie Andersonin, like, the '70s and '80s
squatting in some randomapartment in New York City.
(33:49):
There is instability in any job,
and I think people are reallyseeing that right now too,
outside of the arts, but Ithink there is a strength
and an innovativeness in artists
that is very much a callbackto previous decades,
and I think, right now,
I am seeing more and morepeople being really creative
(34:12):
about where they put their art,
you know, whether it's music,or theatre, or visual arts,
you know, they're finding ways
and new places to presentthat, and it's that thing of...
Of course, it's comingfrom a place of, you know,
trying to financially back yourself,
but just being creative and being like,
(34:32):
"Well, I still wanna make art,
and I still wanna do thisthing, and I still..."
Art will find a way. (laughs)
I feel very cheesy, but I just...
I feel like I see somany innovative people
doing the coolest thingsI've ever seen now,
and that is exciting.
- Do you see that amongst non-artists,
that there's maybe greaterappreciation for art,
(34:56):
or that that can change, as well?
Or maybe change is the wrong word,
but that it's a two-way relationship.
- Yeah, I...
Even thinking about thatclip of that audience member,
you know, I don't know
if they have an artistic practice or not,
but you can be affected in so many ways
by something you didn'texpect to affect you,
(35:18):
and I think society needs that,
the space to self-reflect, tothink deeply about themselves,
their own place in this world,
the context of, like, rightnow is really important,
and that...
(indistinct)
That's really part of thetwo-way relationship, I think.
(upbeat piano music)
(35:45):
(upbeat piano music continues)
- Olivia Shortt was theJHI Artist in Residence
from 2023 to 2024.
You can see and hear more oftheir work on their website,
olivia-shortt, that'sShortt with two Ts, .com.
(36:05):
(upbeat piano music)
"Humanities at Large" is a podcast
from the Jackman Humanities Institute
at the University of Toronto.
If you enjoyed this conversation,be sure to subscribe,
share this episode, andleave us a five-star review.
It really helps to get the word out.
I'm Melissa Gismondi, and I'llbe back again in two weeks.
Thanks for listening.
(36:26):
(upbeat piano music)
(no audio)
(gentle droning music)
- When artist and musicianOlivia Shortt tells a story,
they do it with the helpof their baritone saxophone
and a few other things.
- I'm working with a loop pedal,
so I have a piece of hardware,
and then, I'm also usingmy voice and a couple of...
(00:24):
Literally a toy,
I have this, like, littleapple toy from Fisher-Price,
that's the jingling you kindof hear partway into that.
And then, as well as a fan. (laughs)
It's kind of like a swoosh sound
that kind of clicks at the end.
(gentle droning music)
- But for Olivia, a classicallytrained saxophonist,
music isn't just about what you hear.
(00:47):
They're known for their bright,bold performance attire,
and for this show inthe basement of Wenona,
a small bar in downtown Toronto,
Olivia was decked out ina shiny silver jacket,
sparkly blue pants, and asequined Pink Panther T-shirt.
- Especially coming fromtraining in classical music,
(01:08):
you know, you are thinkingso much about sound
and this invisible thingthat is filling the space,
but I think other aspects ofstorytelling can be about,
like, what you're wearing,
or just, like, what you'representing visually.
Just...
It's the things I love,
I love sequins, I love sparkles,
I love bright colours, I love patterns,
(01:28):
I also like to work withIndigenous designers when I can,
but I really...
I love dressing up in clothes and makeup
and doing weird stuff withmyself when I can. (laughs)
- Olivia Shortt wasthe Artist in Residence
at the Jackman HumanitiesInstitute from 2023 to 2024.
A member of the Nipissing FirstNation, they're a vocalist,
(01:51):
composer, noisemaker,improviser, sound designer,
video artist, drag artist, curator,
and self-described weirdo.
When it comes to theirfirst love, the saxophone,
you could say that it was a match made
in elementary school heaven.
(playful horn music)
(02:12):
- I think I remember being in grade six
and, you know, the middleschool doing sort of, like,
an instrument parade,and showing us, like...
Different students wereplaying their instrument
as they kind of went past,
and we got to see what they sounded like,
and I was just like,"Wow, that's really shiny,
and it has a lot of buttons,and it can do a lot of things."
And it just felt like avery powerful instrument.
(02:34):
I don't think a lot ofpeople wanted to play it,
you know, any time I've done teaching,
I always see the baritonesax in the corner
and I'm just like,
"Don't worry, someone willcome for you." (laughs)
- You'll find your...
Well, I mean, I can relate,
'cause in middle school, Iwanted to play the bass guitar,
and I got the baritone saxophone.
- Yeah. (laughs)
- I think no one else wanted it,
and there was eight kidswho wanted the bass guitar,
(02:54):
so... (laughs)
- Yeah, sounds about right.
(playful horn music)
But yeah, it's thisweird instrument that...
It...
You know, I use the word weird,
but I mean that in a really good way.
For me, weird is this, like, fun thing,
it's kind of like exploringwhat isn't necessarily, like,
mainstream or more conventional
or what people kind of expect.
(03:15):
Yeah, it's this oddball instrument
that really allows for exploration,
and it doesn't reallyfit in anywhere in a way.
Like, yes, you see it in jazz,
yes, you see it in experimental things,
but, like, it doesn'treally technically fit in,
it came so late to the game.
- It was in 1846, is thatright? When it was invented?
- Yeah. Or patented, Ithink, around that time,
(03:37):
and while, you know,the violin, for example,
has hundreds of years of repertoire
and ways of approaching it, and...
The saxophone still feels new.
(relaxed hip-hop music)
- I'm Melissa Gismondi, andthis is "Humanities at Large"
from the Jackman Humanities Institute
at the University of Toronto.
(03:59):
Over the course of this season,
I've been exploring the theme of absence
through the work of JHI researchers.
(relaxed hip-hop music)
Later in the show, you'llhear about an opera
Olivia's been working on,
which has to do with theabsence of artifacts,
sacred belongings takenfrom Indigenous communities
that are being held by museumsand other institutions.
(04:21):
(relaxed hip-hop music)
But first, I asked Oliviaabout the relationship
between absence, music, and storytelling.
- For me, especially with music, you know,
we talk about absence as silence
and that that is part of music,
the space where therearen't necessarily notes
or something being heard,
but the fact is, you'realways hearing something
(04:44):
when you're listening to music,
whether there's a note onthe saxophone, or the piano,
or, you know, a hit of the drum,
or there's a space, which is...
In western music, you'll seea symbol for that, a rest.
So I've always thought of absence
kind of like silence in a way,
or just the lack ofcertain things happening,
or just breathing almost, like,
(05:06):
the breath in-between things.
But I also think about it as space
for the audience to kindof find themselves in,
that in a lot of storytelling, you know,
there can be a really directroute of offering a story
where it's like, "Here's how it started,
here's your characters,
(05:26):
this is your location,this is the problem,
this is how it's resolved."
And I like the absenceof some of those things,
it's kind of like going to an art gallery
and you're just looking at a piece of art,
like, you see what you see,
and you will interpretwhat you interpret from it,
but it's not necessarily...
Unless you're on a tour,
(05:47):
you don't necessarilyhave someone dictating,
or that artist dictating to you, like,
"This is what this means,and this is what this is,"
and telling you all these little things.
Sometimes you're just lookingat a piece of art and going,
"I don't know anything, butI'm a person who has lived
and have experience as abeing in this universe,"
like, "What do I get fromthis? What do I interpret?"
Because sometimes, yeah, what I do
(06:08):
doesn't always make sense to others
and I think that's great.I think that's really cool.
And I kind of like whenpeople have questions
at the end, they're like,"Why were you doing that?"
I'm like, "Great, I lovethis question. This is cool."
What prompts you to ask that?
Like, what is it you'reactually asking, or...
You know, it just makes people think,
so I really like that,
and I think that's importantfor my work at least.
(06:33):
So I was talking to my therapist today
mostly about friendships.
We were chatting about this a lot
because I've had somefriendships that have ended.
(distant clattering)
So I was talking to my therapist today...
And in talking to my therapist, you know,
we started breaking downthese moments, and...
- So the piece we just heard,
(06:53):
and we heard a piece of that there,
it opens with you telling astory, which you then loop
and layer over and over,
and this story is about a kind of absence,
and more specifically, thebreakdown of a friendship.
Why was that a topicyou wanted to explore?
- That was literally...
I had a therapy session that day, like,
that day of that performance at Wenona,
(07:15):
and it was just what was on my mind,
and it felt really relevant,
and, you know, I'm aperson of the Internet,
I like to engage with otherpeople's content there,
so I had also seen a bunch ofpeople kind of talking about,
you know, the loss of friendships, and...
Because so much, you know, in media,
and a lot of art, we talk about, like,
(07:36):
very intimate relationships,
whether it's, like, there'ssomeone you're married to,
or common law partner,or, you know, whatever...
However you describe it,
but that relationships of all kinds
can be really valuableand important, and...
So that was just...
It was really just somethingthat was on my mind that day.
(Olivia vocalizing)
(08:07):
- We hear the anguishbuilding as the piece unfolds,
both in the instruments you play
as well as in your vocals,
and there was a person in the audience
who really connected with the performance,
and here's a clip of whatthey had to say about it.
- Yeah, for me, I, you know,
I had a very hard day
because I had a very weird conversation
(08:28):
with a former friendof mine, which I lost,
it was very weird, very painful,
and I think the music expressedthat something is just,
like, so dis-harmonic,
but in a way that you can listen to it
and that it reflects, somehow,something of your soul,
what your soul has to deal with right now,
(08:50):
like, I think this is how it felt for me,
and it was somehow for me, very relieving,
very beautiful, very intense,
very, very, like, you know, special.
- That's really sweet. Oh, my god.
- What does it mean toyou to hear that clip
and to get that kind ofresponse to your art?
(09:14):
- Yeah, I don't always getthose sort of really...
I guess it feels intimate,like, to hear it,
to hear what they felt, like...
(indistinct)
Oftentimes, you know, you're in the midst
of packing up everything,
you're dealing withgetting yourself off-stage
and getting all your things out,
and so it's actually kind of nice
to have it documented in this way
and to hear someone talking more in-depth
(09:36):
about what it meant,
and it's actually kind of nice to hear
because also I'm listening, I'm like,
"Yeah, yeah, that's kindof what I was trying to do,
that's, like..."
You know, people don't alwaysget everything I'm doing,
and that's great,
and some people, like,get right to the point,
and this person really, like, hit every...
Like, hit the nail on the head, and...
So this was really nice.
(09:56):
(relaxed hip-hop music)
- It was amazing to seethe kind of audience impact
that Olivia could havewith just their voice,
their saxophone, and a few noisemakers.
But during their residence at the JHI,
Olivia was working onsomething much bigger in scale.
(10:18):
"The Museum of Lost and Found,"
subtitled "Gaakaazootaadiwag,"
is a site-specific multidisciplinary opera
that they wrote, produced,and are performing in.
The opera's narrativeexplores the issue of museums
and repatriation, the processof returning cultural property
(10:38):
to its place of origin.
Specifically, it focuses onitems and ancestral remains
that were taken fromIndigenous communities,
and the conversationsunfolding around their return.
- You know, I was tryingto create this large scale,
site-specific piece thatinteracts with the space it's in,
(11:00):
but it's sort of absurdist,
using elements of, like, surrealism,
fragmentation, sort of the absence
of a really direct narrativefor the storytelling,
and, you know, the text that you do hear
is a combination of either spoken
or sung by some of the characters.
(11:22):
- We're already at our first exhibit.
If you look to your left,
you'll see the firstartifacts on our tour.
(gentle string music)
Every tour is a little bitdifferent, so stay focused,
or we might lose you.
(gentle string music)
Maybe you'll need...
- You know, it is on thetopic of repatriation,
of cultural items, objects,as well as ancestors,
(11:46):
and, you know, whatthat conversation means,
not only for the institutiondealing with that at the time,
but for the community that those items
or ancestors might go home to.
I'm trying to learnmore about rematriation
in addition to repatriation,
'cause there's more inrematriation about like, you know,
(12:10):
thinking about Indigenous protocols
and also kind of thinkingabout the processes
of the specific land and territory,
and it's a really complicatedthing, and I don't wanna-
- As opposed to, like,repatriation would be,
"Okay, here are, you know,Western colonial laws,
so we're gonna approach the'giving-the-object-back'
(12:32):
under that logic and that mentality,"
Is that right?- Yeah, it's a lot...
It's very Western, colonial,you know, there's all these...
I'll talk...
I'll just mention alittle bit about the U.S.,
because that's where myinitial workshop happened,
and some of my research was focused.
NAGPRA, which is theNative American Graves
Protection and RepatriationAct, it's from 1990,
(12:54):
and it's one of these lawsthat was created to...
It was...
It's supposed to help, and it's...
The thing is, when itwas initially started,
I don't think people werereally enforcing it, you know,
it's like, "Yay, we didit, return your stuff!"
And then, it's just...
That didn't happen.
It's been more recent, I would say,
in the last, like, decade,
that some institutions havebeen doing the work to, like...
(13:17):
To send items home, tosend ancestors home,
but it's very complicated,not only 'cause,
you know, there's the financial toll,
the emotional toll,
but also just in general,as a point of interest,
is that a lot of these items and ancestors
were poorly-labeled, incorrectly labeled.
Sometimes, institutionsdon't know how to find out
(13:41):
where they should go home,even, like, through deep study,
it's like, "Well..."
You know, maybe there's a number of,
say, Abenaki communitieswho are saying, like,
"We would like these..."
You know, maybe it's a vase,
a specific set of vases orsomething, to come home.
You don't necessarily know
which specific community to send it to,
so then, you have to have thisdiscussion with all of them
(14:02):
to say, like, "Hey, okay,how should we approach this?"
But that doesn't always happen
in a really good-intentioned way,
and so, you know, I'm trying to look
at the work of Robin Gray,
who's doing a lot ofwork with rematriation,
specifically at the University of Toronto,
but yeah, it's very much,like, Indigenous-led,
but it's often led by women,
(14:22):
and, like, thinking aboutIndigenous feminism,
and still something thatI'm kind of figuring out,
and how to talk about it in this work,
but at the core, this is about,
"How do we talk about this?"
Right now, it's still a...
Very much a, like, TurtleIsland, North America context
because if anyone is into this topic,
(14:45):
and you read about what'shappening in other countries,
or, like, any parts of Europe,
you know, countries likeFrance are a lot stricter,
and don't really wanna let go
of a lot of these objects orancestors, for the matter.
You know, there's some museums
who don't necessarily believe in this,
and don't want to return,
and so, that's another aspectof this whole conversation.
(15:08):
- Just to note, in early 2024,
new regulations under NAGPRA,
again, that's the Native American Graves
Protection and Repatriation Act,
came into effect in the U.S.,
requiring institutions toget permission from tribes
to display human remainsand cultural objects.
As a result, many museumsand galleries across the U.S.
(15:32):
have closed their Indigenous exhibits.
In Canada, there's no federal legislation
regarding repatriation.
It's up to individual museumsto come up with a policy,
and consider requestson a case-by-case basis.
So here in Canada, museums currently hold
more than 6 million artifactsfrom Indigenous nations,
(15:55):
including, as we were talking about,
the remains of ancestors,
and I think this might seemlike an obvious question,
and I know you can't speak for everyone,
but I wonder if, asyou're sort of researching
and thinking about this,
and connecting with the topic,
if you can talk a bit aboutthe impact of this absence.
Like, what imprint itleaves behind, do you think?
(16:16):
- Yeah.
What I kept reading about,
and especially, I was readingabout a lot of cases out West,
like, with Haida Gwaii,was that, you know,
thinking about objects having histories,
and that, you know, you dokind of imprint a history
onto the things thatare part of your life,
(16:36):
like, even if you don't think of them
as, like, sentient things,like, even thinking for me,
like, I think about the saxophone I play,
I've played that saxophone for years,
and it has traveled tomany places with me,
and, like, it has its ownlittle nicks, and scratches,
and dents from things that have happened,
and thinking about how muchhistory it holds as an object.
(17:00):
Yes, it is a piece of metal,
but it also is a containerfor these histories,
and that was sort of the thing
I was seeing time and time again
from sort of people talkingabout these case studies,
and what it meant when they were able
to bring cultural items home
(17:20):
or their own ancestors home,
knowing that not only,especially with their ancestors,
that someone could come home
and be buried properly with ceremony
and the protocols of their own community,
but that with cultural items,
it's, like, a part of yourhistory is coming home
in a physical sense, but also, just, like,
all the history carried in that object,
(17:42):
and that's something that hasreally stuck with me in this,
is just...
Especially for people
just trying to heal froma lot of colonial trauma,
and intergenerational trauma,
and reclaiming your culture,reclaiming language,
it's a part of a healing process.
(18:02):
You'll see different institutions
who've had really successfulprocesses, like, they...
Inviting a specific communityto their institution,
being able to do the ceremoniesthere, being able to...
Like, if it's your ancestor bringing
someone home who's been awayfor a long time, it's...
That's huge. (laughs)
That's huge for healing.
(18:23):
Yeah.
- So I know you wrote the libretto,
are you performing in it?
Like, will you perform
in all the differentsite-specific performances?
- At the moment, yes, I am in it,
and that is sort of the nature,
sometimes, of self-producing, you're like,
"I'll just do 20 jobs," as manyartists will know. (laughs)
Yeah, I ended up...
(18:44):
I have this character,
and it's kind of relatedto my solo practice.
I've named them Nina Boujee,which is a play on Nanabozho,
which is the trickster character,
and I find having a characterthat I can kind of...
(laughs) It's not just venting,
but being able to bereally blunt about stuff
(19:07):
where you're like,
"Yeah, I'm gonna givea land acknowledgement,
but I'm also gonna say a bunch of stuff
about the specific institution,
and call them out at their ownfestival, you know?" (laughs)
And talk about their own history,
and it's sometimeseasier, at least for me,
and this is where I'm not atrained actor or anything,
but I really relate to theatre people
(19:28):
because I'm like, "Oh,yeah, you just, like..."
It is you, but it's also not you,
so it's a place where Ican feel really comfortable
saying these really directofferings to the audience,
but yeah, I am performing in it currently
as Nina Boujee in anon-singing role. (laughs)
- So I've seen...
(19:49):
I saw an event listening,
'cause Nina Boujee, it'sa recurring character.
I saw a listing thatdescribed Nina Boujee as a,
quote, "Weird, drag-adjacent,two-spirit trickster friend
who is always ready to stir upchaotic energy in the room."
Is that an accuratedescription, do you think?
- Yes, I wrote that description. (laughs)
- You wrote that. There you go.
(people laughing)
(20:11):
(indistinct)
- The monster under your bed is real.
The monster under your bed is real.
The monster under your bed is real.
(20:31):
- As Olivia mentioned,this recurring character,
a kind of alter ego named Nina Boujee,
is a play on a trickster figure
from traditional Anishinaabe storytelling.
I asked Olivia what itis about this figure
that inspires them.
- In a lot of communities,there's a trickster character.
(20:51):
For us, you know, like,Nanabozho is often a rabbit,
but not always.
If anyone has ever goneto the Wisakedjak festival
that Native Earth Performing Arts does,
they have a cutout of a coyote,
and Wisakedjak is the Cree trick...
Cree version of the trickster,
and it's this characterthat isn't necessarily good,
(21:15):
but they're not necessarily bad,
and I sort of like that idea
of this character that is doing things,
sometimes, it's to help,
sometimes, it's for theirown self-indulgence,
you know, they're self-centered,
but I love that there'salways this aspect of,
with the stories around the trickster,
(21:36):
that there's something to learn from them,
even if it's not them teaching you it,
it's through an action they've done,
and I think that's really why, like...
It's like, "Oh, yeah,Nina is Nanabozho, and..."
Sort of. Like, sort ofa Nanabozho character.
You can talk to a lot ofpeople with this character,
(21:59):
even if they don'tnecessarily agree with you,
whether it's, like,politically, or spiritually,
or, I don't know, emotionally. (laughs)
You don't have to agree on things,
but you can take a lotfrom this character,
and that's kind of...
That's why.
- I wanna turn now totalk a bit about your path
to becoming the artist that you are today,
(22:20):
and we sort of started there,
so we'll come full circle a little bit.
You grew up in North Bay as an only child,
you've said you spent
a lot of time alone listening to music.
What were you listening to back then?
(Olivia laughing)
- I ended up with a lotof cassettes and CDs
from my mom and my uncle,
(22:41):
and then, my dad would sometimesbuy me something random,
and that would end upadded into the collection,
so, you know, we had thevery dramatic Meat Loaf,
listened to a lot of that.
I also...
I really...
I wish I could find this,
it was a powwow CD that my dad had,
and I would walk aroundthe house as a little kid
(23:03):
trying to mimic it, becausethere's some really...
I won't do it here because it's loud,
but there's this reallyhigh-pitched, loud...
They're kinda like, "Huh, huh,"
but, like, much higher. (laughs)
I also was listening to,like, Barenaked Ladies,
you know, the stuff my uncle had given me,
it was, like, Warren Zevon,
(23:24):
"Werewolf in London" was a classic,
ACDC, like, Muddy Waters, alot of older blues, I also...
My favourite cassette, Ithink it's from the '60s,
it's the "Hymn and Organ Dance Party,"
and there's no singing on it.
(23:47):
It's a collection of what Ifeel like are random songs,
but it's, like, I think,songs from the '50s and '60s.
"La Bamba" is on there,
"House of the Rising Sun" is on there,
and it's all done in this hymn and organ
with the vibrato turned up,
and once in a while,there's drum kit on it,
like, it's supposed to be a party mix,
(24:07):
but with a hymn and organ,
and I listened to that a lot.
(Melissa laughing)
- You...
Well, you mentioned Meat Loaf,
and, you know, ACDC, and that kind of...
What do you think it was
about that kind of musicthat connected for you?
- Well, Meat Loaf isvery dramatic. Meat Loaf-
- The theatricality.
(24:27):
- Oh, yeah. His music isreally well-orchestrated.
He has these huge ensembles of performers.
I love his voice, I thinkhe had a great voice.
There's also a lot ofstorytelling in his music,
like, often, if you get his albums,
there's these clips thatare not the music, it's...
You know, if I can remember part of it,
(24:49):
it's, like, him and thiswoman going back and forth,
like, "On this hot summer night,
would you offer your throat tothe wolf with the red roses?"
And you're like, "Whatdoes that even mean?"
- On a hot summer night,would you offer your throat
to the wolf with the red roses?
- Will he offer me his mouth?
(25:09):
- Yes.
- Will he offer me his teeth?
- Yes.
- But I loved it, I wasjust like, "Yes, I'm in."
And, you know, of course,
his stuff got turned into a musical,
and, like, he was always kind of working
in this sort of rock-operaway, and Warren Zevon,
again, another, like, very dramatic song
(25:30):
is just "Werewolves in London."
You know, there's literallyparts where he's going...
(Olivia mimicking wolf howling)
"Werewolves in London," and, like, it's...
Like, it's kinda ridiculous,
like, he talks about, you know,
a wolf murdering someone in the side,
you're like, "What is happening?"
- There's a lot of wolves, I'm thinking,
with Meat Loaf too, and...
- Oh, yeah.
(Melissa laughing)
(25:51):
With, like, ACDC and allthat, again, it was...
These bands were really good.
They really knew how toplay their instruments,
I think that was it,
they were just, like,absolutely incredible musicians,
and, you know, even thoughit's kinda, like, dad rock,
it's, like, really good dad rock. (laughs)
You're like, "This is the good stuff,"
you know, "This is the pre-,like, '90s, terrible dad rock."
(26:12):
(people laughing)
- Yeah.
And when did you know that you wanted
to sort of pursue a careerand a life as a musician?
How did that sort of come about for you?
- So when I went to study music,
I didn't really have a game plan,
it was, I finished high school,
I had realized at some point
I didn't wanna be a veterinarian.
(26:34):
- Was that your plan before?
- Yeah, when I was younger, you know,
like, middle school, earlyhigh school, I was like,
"Yeah, I'll do sciencesand math, and do..."
"Be a vet," and then, I realized
I don't really like those things,
and music just felt like theright thing to go and study,
and I had gone into a couple programs,
and I had lived in NorthBay almost my entire life,
(26:55):
I'd grown up there, and atthat point, it was just like,
"Well, I wanna be somewhere else."
And then, I went to Toronto,
and I hadn't really been toToronto much before that,
I think it'd been, like,once or twice maybe,
and I did my audition, andI met my potential teacher,
and just seeing the campusand the city, I was like,
(27:16):
"I think this is what is right for me,"
so I kinda just followed that,
which is very much acommon theme in my life,
is sort of following...
Trying to follow my intuitionand see what, like...
Now, it's a combination of,like, making sure it's, like,
"Does this match with my values?
Is this what I want to do?"
But also, just sometimes, it's like,
"Well, this feels likethe right thing to do,"
and that hasn't really ledme astray for the most part.
(27:39):
I think the reason I'mdrawn to experimental music
is very much related tohow I approach stuff,
because it's, "Let's just try stuff,
let's play, let's experiment,"
you can throw a bunchof things at the wall,
and see what feelsreally good by doing it,
and so, that's what...
Kind of a number
of these different sort ofmoments happened where...
(27:59):
I had mentioned Native EarthPerforming Arts earlier
'cause I feel like they'revery important to me,
and to kind of how I'vegone to this place,
because a previous managingdirector, Isaac Thomas,
he had reached out and goes,
"I heard you're working with dancers,
you should apply to the festival and..."
"The Wisakedjak festival, andyou should submit something,"
(28:20):
and I was just kinda like...
I hadn't really writtenmusic at this point,
I was like, "I don'tknow what I would make,
what am I gonna do?"
But then, it was just that thing of,
"Worst case, you apply, andthey say no, and that's okay."
So I applied, and they werelike, "You're in." (laughs)
- What year was this, would you say?
- That was 2017.
(28:43):
And then, also becauseI was sort of wanting
to do a bit of storytellingaround stuff with my family,
all I could think of
was I had all these cassettesthat I used to listen to,
and I was like, "How could Iwork with cassette players?"
And I was like, "I don't know,"
but, like, I ended up borrowing
eight different cassetteplayers, and then...
Again, I knew nothing, but Ibought blank cassette tapes,
(29:07):
I asked some friends to recordsome text I had written,
and just asked them tosay it in different ways.
I didn't know how to get the recording
from my laptop onto the cassette,
and I didn't know who to ask,
so I just went from,like, "Well, what if...?"
And I got a microphone, andI hung it over my laptop,
like the lo-fi dork I was at the time,
(29:31):
'cause I didn't know whatto do, and just was like,
"Whatever, it'll be, like,a spooky lo-fi effect,
I'll just do this,"
and that's how I initially,like, did all these cassettes,
and I was working with adancer named Kathleen...
(indistinct)
And we figured out, like, the choreography
of her pushing, you know,each cassette to play,
and then, dancing in reaction to it,
(29:53):
and I didn't know how to edit anything,
so I got Audacity, whichis a free software,
and I'm pretty sure I justwatched YouTube tutorials,
and then, clicked a bunch of things,
and I saw the effects tab and was like,
"Ooh, what do I do there?"
And just chopped it upand just tried stuff.
It did inspire somethingwhere I was like, "Okay,"
you know, I don't knowif it was a perfect piece
(30:14):
in any sense, there was definitelysome rough aspects to it,
but I was just like,
"Oh, this is definitely a starting point,"
and what ended up happening
is I just kept submitting the things,
and there was a quartet in NewYork that had a call in 2019,
they're the Jack Quartet,
and they work with a lot of famous people,
they're a very well-known quartet,
(30:35):
they do a lot of experimentaland classical, like, music
that gets, you know,
framed either as avant-garde or new music,
and they had a call, and I was just like,
"Why not? I'll justsubmit whatever." (laughs)
And all I had at the time, Ihad videos of these two pieces
I'd done at Wisakedjak,
(30:57):
and I think one video ofme playing and improvising,
and I was just like, "Well,this is what I have,"
and I got picked, which shocked me,
and was really a wonderful surprise.
You know, it was such a...
It's just, like, things kind of...
Not that they fell into place,
'cause, like, I had to apply,
and I had to do stuff inorder for it to happen,
(31:18):
but it was, like, just all these things
that kind of followed...
Or followed my intuition to be like,
"I think this is whereI'm supposed to be."
- I wanna close by justsort of talking about
sort of just where we are today,
in terms of arts and the arts landscape.
And so, as you weresaying, you know, it's...
Being an artist, trying tomake a living as an artist
(31:39):
can be piecemeal, like, a little bit here,
not knowing what the future holds,
I know it can be reallydifficult making plans
'cause, you know, it's...
Funding is always up in the air. (laughs)
I know there have beenincreases to arts funding
in this year's federal budget,
but it's still highly competitive,
and I know the processcan be really frustrating,
so for you, as someone working across
(31:59):
so many platforms and media,
I'm curious how youfeel about the vitality
of the arts landscape today,where we are right now.
- You know, I thinkthere is a lot of hope.
I think it can be easy tofeel sad about, you know,
(32:19):
funding, and whatever ishappening with arts councils,
because at least in Canada,
that's how a lot of artistsrely on making their work,
is by applying to Canada Council,
or Ontario, or wherever you live,
but then, you know, I read books where...
You know, I'm reading this book
on the last 50 years of video art history,
and it's by a curator atthe MoMA, Barbara London,
(32:42):
and it reminded me that I think
there's kinda these waves,and sort of an ebb and flow
of what is happeningeconomically in any country,
there's always been somekind of up and down,
and also, just even artists...
(33:03):
I think we should pay artists more.
I'm not advocating fordifficult artist life,
I think that is terrible,
and I think everybody needsto be paid way better,
but, you know, I was reading about,
like, Laurie Anderson working in New York,
in Manhattan, when youcould still be an artist
living in, like, GreenwichVillage or something,
and squatting in ahouse, and no one cared.
(33:25):
I don't think that'sa glamorous lifestyle,
but it does remind me that,
like, people often finda way to do things,
and whether it's you have your Joe job,
and you work at a coffeeshop during the day,
and then, that allows you at least...
You know, you pay rent,you get your groceries,
you can do your art,
or you're Laurie Andersonin, like, the '70s and '80s
squatting in some randomapartment in New York City.
(33:49):
There is instability in any job,
and I think people are reallyseeing that right now too,
outside of the arts, but Ithink there is a strength
and an innovativeness in artists
that is very much a callbackto previous decades,
and I think, right now,
I am seeing more and morepeople being really creative
(34:12):
about where they put their art,
you know, whether it's music,or theatre, or visual arts,
you know, they're finding ways
and new places to presentthat, and it's that thing of...
Of course, it's comingfrom a place of, you know,
trying to financially back yourself,
but just being creative and being like,
(34:32):
"Well, I still wanna make art,
and I still wanna do thisthing, and I still..."
Art will find a way. (laughs)
I feel very cheesy, but I just...
I feel like I see somany innovative people
doing the coolest thingsI've ever seen now,
and that is exciting.
- Do you see that amongst non-artists,
that there's maybe greaterappreciation for art,
(34:56):
or that that can change, as well?
Or maybe change is the wrong word,
but that it's a two-way relationship.
- Yeah, I...
Even thinking about thatclip of that audience member,
you know, I don't know
if they have an artistic practice or not,
but you can be affected in so many ways
by something you didn'texpect to affect you,
(35:18):
and I think society needs that,
the space to self-reflect, tothink deeply about themselves,
their own place in this world,
the context of, like, rightnow is really important,
and that...
(indistinct)
That's really part of thetwo-way relationship, I think.
(upbeat piano music)
(35:45):
(upbeat piano music continues)
- Olivia Shortt was theJHI Artist in Residence
from 2023 to 2024.
You can see and hear more oftheir work on their website,
olivia-shortt, that'sShortt with two Ts, .com.
(36:05):
(upbeat piano music)
"Humanities at Large" is a podcast
from the Jackman Humanities Institute
at the University of Toronto.
If you enjoyed this conversation,be sure to subscribe,
share this episode, andleave us a five-star review.
It really helps to get the word out.
I'm Melissa Gismondi, and I'llbe back again in two weeks.
Thanks for listening.
(36:26):
(upbeat piano music)
(no audio)
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