March 11, 2025 • 57 mins
In this gripping episode of Hustle and Flowchart, we delve into the remarkable journey of Eric Jorgenson, the mastermind behind "The Almanac of Naval Ravikant." Eric, now the CEO of Scribe Media, shares an extraordinary tale of revival from chaos, rebuilding trust and redefining how books are crafted and self-made authors are created. If you've ever considered writing a book or are intrigued by pathways to personal and professional transformation, this episode is a goldmine. Buckle up as we explore Eric's world, where opportunities are seized, and traditional publishing norms are shattered, all while drawing inspiration from the wisdom of Naval Ravikant.
Eric's Role at Scribe Media
Eric Jorgenson serves as CEO of Scribe Media, where he juggles different projects. He admits that managing these tasks is challenging but focuses on synergies rather than distractions. Opportunity well handled, he says, leads to more opportunity.
The Story of Scribe
Scribe Media was co-founded by Tucker Max and Zach Obront. Tucker, a well-known author, originally used his talents to help others navigate the confusing publishing world. Scribe grew rapidly, but when the original founders left, mismanagement led to bankruptcy. Eric, having published his first book with Scribe, found himself caught up in the chaos. He felt a responsibility to save the company that helped him so much.
Trust Building Post-Bankruptcy
Eric emphasizes that trust can't be asked for, only earned. The focus for Scribe is now to do stellar work and let that speak for itself. He believes in rebuilding trust by doing what you say you will do, consistently. This isn't about asking for trust, but rather earning it through actions and reliability.
The Model of Scribe Media
Scribe Media takes the opposite approach of traditional publishing. Unlike big publishers that offer advances and retain most rights and royalties, Scribe charges a flat rate. Authors make the creative decisions, keep all rights, and retain all royalties. This means more royalties for the author in the long run, especially if you sell many books, like David Goggins. Instead of relying on media appearances, books now are sold primarily on platforms like Amazon, highlighting the significance of authors owning their work.
The Importance of Books in a Digital World
A book can act as a powerful marketing tool. It allows professionals to demonstrate their expertise and connect with potential clients. For instance, Paul Franco used his book to reach a niche audience, leading directly to business opportunities. A well-written book goes beyond mere sales. It offers credibility and establishes authority.
AI in Book Writing
AI can assist in the initial stages of writing but isn't perfect for long-form prose. Scribe helps authors by interviewing them, pulling out stories and key points to capture the book’s essence. While AI can pose as a support tool, Eric believes that human touch is still pivotal for creating truly impactful content. AI offers options like proofreading and brainstorming and can accelerate the drafting process.
Naval Ravikant's Influence
Naval's perspectives deeply influence Eric. He appreciates Naval’s view that happiness is a skill rather than just a choice. Eric has adopted these nuggets into his daily life, like appreciating simple moments. However, he also notes areas where he might diverge from Naval, particularly around the responsibilities we hold towards other people's happiness.
The CEO Journey and Personal Fulfillment
Eric has held multiple titles, including author and investor, and has learned to focus on being continuously “in motion.” There’s no finish line, only a state of being content and peaceful amidst activity. He wishes to become better at balancing productivity and peace, aiming for a fulfilling life journey rather than just reaching a destination.
In this episode,
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
there is no amount ofmarketing that overcomes.
(00:02):
A bad product.
even if it's true for that,some, you know, 3 months, 6
months, 12 months, like overthe very long period of time,
you know, the reputation inthe product is the ultimate,
you know, determinant of value
impatience with action, patiencewith results, I think that
like defines the trust thing.
Authors now have their own audience.
They can sell directly throughtheir website or, you know, link
(00:25):
people directly from their socialmedia, their newsletter, whatever.
they may give away a thousand books.
Exactly.
But they'll get $10 million inbusiness to their core business
or raise a hundreds of millionsof dollars as a result of
having that book out there andgetting it into the right hands
show me another marketing channelthat like makes you money,
builds trust at a deep level andcreates like high intent inbound
(00:49):
Eric, it's good tohave you here, brother.
and I'm happy we get to connectand I've been reading this, this
is actually, this book here hasbeen by my bedside for years now
since it came out The Almanac ofNaval Akan, where you, I dunno
if you, yeah, I would, maybe youwere the curator of that book.
the
I never, I never really knowwhat, what verb to use, 'cause
(01:10):
write doesn't, you know,write, build, edit, curate,
create whatever you want to do.
But you're obviouslydoing a lot more.
But that's, that was the firsttime, you know, I was introduced
to your way of thinking andjust like the sheer massive,
like just the work that wouldgo into something like that.
I would love to dive in lateron that, but I mean, yourself,
man, you're doing some, somevery interesting things.
(01:32):
You know, scribe media is,is, you're the CEO over there.
So I mean, I guess how areyou doing, you know, how are,
how are things right now?
Let's start there.
Like,
I'm, I'm learning to juggle.
I'm learning to juggle.
It's, you know, it's, it's hardto, Split your attention across
a handful of different projects.
But, it's also really fun.
And I think, you know, you,you just try to stay in a place
(01:54):
where you take the perspective,you know, look for synergies,
not, not distractions.
so find ways that thingscan like feed each other
and stack on each other.
And, you know, my, buddy DavidCenter's got a great line.
It's like opportunity, well handledleads to more opportunity and
true.
Yeah.
as sort of you, if you dosomething well, it unlocks new
(02:16):
opportunities and, The opportunitycost of your time should
continue to go up over time.
Like that's a good problem to have.
And yeah, you just end up witha lot of balls in the air.
Yeah.
And you probably get used toit just even more and more.
I hope so,
one day, one day.
one day.
Well, I mean, I'm, I'm sointrigued by the story.
Like I was mentioning, youknow, I've, I've known about
(02:38):
Scribe for a lot of years.
I've seen, you know, Tuckerand Tucker Max speak about it.
I think he was one ofthe founders, right?
Or co-founders.
Founder.
Yeah.
Tucker and, Zach Obrat werethe co-founders of Scribe.
that's right.
Yeah.
So, I mean, interesting story.
I would love for you tobreak things down, but you're
at the helm right now and.
I guess, yeah.
Where would you wannastart with that?
(02:59):
'cause I have some, I have somequestions and thoughts, but I mean,
like this episode I feel like is,it'd be a great journey about what
you've gone starting as an author,a writer, and now wrote thing.
Yeah.
Cool.
Yeah, so I'll, if I do maybethe story of Scribe and the
story of Eric and they'll,they'll merge, in the third act.
But, we've got, like you mentioned,it's the right place to start.
(03:20):
Tucker Max and Zach obrien andTucker is, you know, for people
who haven't heard of him, a verysuccessful author, he's one of the
original like, blog to book guys.
I mean, millions and millionsof copies sold multiple times.
New York Times best seller.
and so he got all thesecalls from friends, so
hilarious, hilarious guy.
like pathologically honest.
(03:41):
just a really, reallyinteresting dude.
And, he's, you know, we were sortof reading each other's blogs
early on as he was starting Scribe.
So I also had been followingScribe since the very beginning.
And I think the vision that theyhad for where publishing was
heading was incredible and evenmore incredible 10 years ago.
And they've really like the, sortof the increased rise in hybrid
(04:01):
and people leaving the traditional.
You know, leaders leaving thetraditional publishing and setting
up their own kind of more uniquemodels that are closer to what
Scribe has done are all likereally interesting sort of proof
points of their original vision.
And, you know, over 10years they built up this
really impressive company.
you know, they, I think it wasoriginally it was like bootstrapped
(04:23):
and grew like crazy, grew up to,you know, tens of millions and,
you know, dozens of employees.
And after eight yearsor so, they were.
You know, they're founders andthey're ready to go do other stuff.
Tucker has a family and he's, kindof ready to retiring, go do his
ranching and write his memoir.
And, and, and Zach on the otherside is like a super genius and
he went off and did, he becameone of the biggest like bug bounty
(04:45):
hunters in the Ethereum ecosystem.
So he's like in the cryptoworld and they totally
went different directions.
Like both brilliant andinteresting and awesome guys.
And, as they stepped back from thecompany, the guy who, who they had
hired as CEO before and who sortof took sole control of the company
after they left, I, it went offthe rails a little bit, like, and
(05:08):
a little bit turned into a lot andthere's a very, like Tucker wrote
an incredible kind of postmortemabout this whole thing and some
of the psychological he did inthat post where I think no other.
Business case study I've ever readhas done, which is understand the
psychology of the leader that ledto the mistakes in the business.
And then ultimately the,you know, the outcome that,
(05:32):
affected so many people.
It, it ended up being, quitean ugly bankruptcy actually,
which I got caught up in.
so
an author right?
At the
yeah, so, so that's like smashcut back to like act one of Eric.
like I, you know.
Came from the venturebacked startup world.
I've always been a, a, likea big reader and writer,
(05:53):
and I love, like tweeting.
Turned into blogging.
Blogging, turned into writingthis book, the Almanac Naval.
And, since Tucker, I'd been readinghis blog and following him and, he
was just one of the first people Ireached out to and I was starting
to talk to authors about, like, I.
How do you navigate thisworld of publishing?
What are the options?
It's very confusing.
It's only gotten more confusing.
so he was kind enough to takesome time with me and lay out
(06:16):
the options and talk to me aboutmy book and help kind of really
develop it and move it along.
I. And so I ended up, publishingthat first book with Scribe
as an author in 20 19, 20 20.
And I had an incredible experience.
Like the team was perfect.
I learned so much.
It was a, a remarkably like,transformative experience.
And that book changed my life,you know, and, and as a model,
(06:39):
I thought Scribe was justso, I thought it was dead on.
I thought it was so correct.
I thought they were very, Theywere just really honest about
like, look, you as the author,the CEO of the book, like
you're going to front the cost.
You're gonna take the risk,but you also assume full
control of this thing.
You get to make all thefinal creative decisions.
You get to craft the book the wayyou want to, that serves your goals
(06:59):
and your life, and you're gonna getthe full upside, which especially
in from a book like Naval,turned out to be life changing,
Yeah, that was what?
Million plus copies, right?
Yeah, I think we're, we'reat a million and a half.
I think.
you know, all, all formats,all languages like worldwide.
so it's, it, you know, it's abig world, but, you know, not a
lot of books make it there, man.
it's, it's crazy.
(07:19):
I. You know, people.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I mean, it's, it is a testamentto like Val's wisdom, I think.
And you know, the word of moutharound it has been just crazy.
So, I, I don't think it's, youknow, I worked hard on the book,
but I don't think it's like,it's not some genius marketing
hack that I have, right.
It's just like a good product thatchanges people's lives and a lot of
(07:41):
people can get something from it andit's just, you know, had wind in its
sales very, very luckily for months
It's value, it's value packed, man.
Like, there's no, there'sno fluff in there.
Like, seriously, if you don'thave, I'll, I'll be linking it
in the, notes, all that stuff.
Easy
Thank you.
I loved, I love to seea copy that's just Yeah.
Beat to shit that's gothighlights on every page.
It's all dogeared.
(08:02):
Yeah.
It's been in and out of thebackpack a thousand times.
or, or like you said,people are like, yeah, you,
you've been in my bedroom.
It's been sitting next to my toilet.
You know, whatever the,
Whatever it's seen, you know, soyou're top of mind and it's true.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's perfect.
I love to hear it.
or yeah, being gifted, like, I thinkbeing gifted is the best compliment
a book can receive, right?
So, when people are like, I gavethis to my little brother, it
(08:25):
changed his life, he changedhis major, dropped outta school
or quit med school or whatever.
The thing is that,
Yeah.
you know, sort of wrappingyour head around some of these
principles does for people, so.
I, I immediately, I mean, especiallywith a book like that, I, and
an experience like that withScribe, I immediately started
writing my second book, andwhich was the anthology of B and
that came out, like late 2023.
(08:46):
But that was the book that I waspublishing with Scribe also, and
got caught up in this bankruptcy.
So, you know, when the, the sortof the house fell, You know, I took
a loss just like everybody else inthat, but I also was like, man, I
feel like I owe this company, youknow, something like, some level
of effort to save them after,you know, the, all of the good
(09:08):
that I got from them and all, youknow, the wonderful experience
I had with the team and therespect I had for everybody there.
and so I started just making somephone calls and I, lucky enough
through just conferences andTwitter and friendships to know
people who buy companies, or, or.
You know, work in privateequity or permanent equity.
Yeah.
So I started making phone callsand I found these guys, Eva
(09:31):
and Xavier, who run EnduringVentures, who I'd met a few
times at, you know, at BerkshireHanaway conference and, I think
Capital Camp, but a few others.
And, yeah, they're just good news.
They do, they run a long-termholding company that's so,
it's not a fund, they're nottrying to flip companies.
They, they buy and hold for the longrun and they have a background in
publishing and, and a backgroundin, you know, distressed situations,
(09:52):
which like this definitely was
so, they, they knew the, the nowsituation you're in, but they also
had that long-term vision that, youknow, they'll stick around with.
Yeah.
And they saw, they saw, youknow what I saw, which is
like, this is a unique model.
It is.
It had been a great brand untilthis very moment, which basically
one guy like screwed it up.
and, you know, they're,they're just long-term thinkers
(10:12):
and so they, they saw thepotential, I think, and they, I.
We're willing to, do some of thereally messy, heavy lifting to like
try to, you know, in situations likethat, there's no perfect solution.
There's no, everybody's gonnaend up angry about something.
and there's a lot of pain to goaround, like economic and emotional
yeah.
supporting what, thousands,I think what you have to say,
(10:34):
like 2000 plus, authors, right?
I don't know what was going onat that time, but trust, you
know, like there's a lot ofthat that probably is lost and
you're just like, oh, shoot.
You know, it's caughtin the middle, right?
There were, there were hundredsof active authors and, a, a lot
of people got, It just ended up inreally unenviable situations and
I've heard some, some horror storiesand, I've been trying to like, have
(10:56):
conversations with those people andmake up for that and do what we can.
essentially what ended uphappening is we started a brand
new company, hired over some ofthe team and basically bought the,
the IP from the bank that, yeah.
So the, the kind of mechanicsare, are interesting.
It's not my expertise, but, to mysurprise, they called me after and
said like, we, okay, we got this newthing and we need somebody to run
(11:17):
it, and we think that should be you.
So I was like, all right,let's give this thing a
you, you raised your hand, man.
I mean,
Yeah.
that's like 90% of thebattle right there.
Maybe more even you.
Yeah.
Yeah, and it ended up being avery interesting, like, you know,
most people I know who are CEOseither built their business from
the ground up or spent 15 yearsthere and got hired into the role
(11:38):
after sort of working their way up.
And so I think, you know, there,there's this sort of, Search
fund and small business and smallbusiness acquisition and like
private equity world that, isfull of kind of these weirdly
interesting, almost one-offstories of like, you know, seller
finance acquisitions and or,or privately funded or search
(11:58):
funded or independent sponsors.
And this ended up being like avery weird combination of all of
those, like kind of by accident.
But it's a very, it's a cool,it's a really cool world and very
interesting stuff happens in it.
Man.
Well, I'm, I'm, I'm thinkingof like the moment when you
stepped into the role as CEO.
Like, was there, I don't know,like was there, what was the
(12:20):
feeling that you had at that point?
Because you obviously probablylearning a ton and things that you
didn't totally know about, like.
Was there something that maybeyour gut was feeling that
like spreadsheets and all thenumbers really weren't talking,
like there had to have beensomething happening there?
It's a lot.
I mean, you said it right?
It's a lot of learning.
It's a lot of getting orientedas quickly as possible, to,
(12:40):
to a lot of things, right?
Like you are meeting the whole team,you're meeting the customers, you're
trying to understand the processes.
there's so much to wrap yourhead around really quickly.
And, friends who've been throughthis before warned me, they're
like, you will get asked to makea decision in the first week
that you don't think you'll beready for, for six more months.
(13:00):
And like, you just have to do thebest you can with what you have.
So it's a very, it is a very likeseat of the pants experience and,
but I, you know, all, all you cando is kind of keep doing your best.
And, you know, I'm 18 monthsin now and I, I'm still like,
I'm still trying to learn.
I'm still, there's somuch, you know, you can't
possibly know enough.
And every additional piece ofinformation helps, like every
(13:21):
customer you can talk to.
trying to understand yourwhole team's roles ever
more deeply and how theyall fit together and the co.
Changing environments, you know, thedifferent offers, different authors,
different tools, different vendors.
True.
so yeah, it's, it is alreadya dynamic environment and
then you're trying to playcatch up on top of it.
But, it's also kindawhat makes it fun.
(13:42):
You know, it's a very fun, I. It'sfun to kind of be the, like, to
some extent, the nexus of all ofthat information and have it all
kind of like feeding into you.
It's a lot to process, but,
it's, it's very fun.
Like for, for somebody who'sdeeply and, endlessly curious
and hungry to understand allof this, like, it's fantastic.
(14:02):
right in the middle of it.
Yeah.
I mean, I see a bunch ofbooks behind you, so it's like
you're literally surroundedby authors all day, every day.
Yeah, dude, it is.
I tell you, it is brutal to likehave, you know, six to eight
author like meetings with authorsa day who they, they explain
their book Heidi, and you're like,shit, I wanna read that book.
And then half an hour lateryou're like, that sounds amazing.
(14:22):
I would love to read that book.
and
having podcasts like this, like,I'm like, that's a great idea.
Shit.
Nope.
Don't focus, focus.
yeah.
Yeah.
It's, it is very easy for the,yeah, the, the opportunities
and ideas and, reading materialin particular to stack up.
I bet.
Yeah.
Well, walk me through, there'slike two, two ways I want to go
(14:43):
and I don't know which way itis yet, but like, maybe start
with the rebuilding trust.
Like, 'cause I was thinking thetrust with existing authors, maybe
ones that, you know, and this leadsme to like the model of scribe too.
I want to make that very clear.
I don't know whichway, that goes because.
Yeah, I don't know.
I'll just leave that to you.
Yeah, I, let's, let's startwith, the trust is the
(15:05):
foundation of everything.
So I think starting there, youknow, I, I wrote in the, wrote
the first like annual letter,recently to kind of like the
community and the, the team and,I. I, I think this first year was
all about just rebuilding trust.
And I don't think, you know, it'snot something you can ask for.
It's something you have to earn andit takes time and repetition and,
(15:30):
like to be trustworthy,you have to be reliable.
And to be reliable,people need a sample size.
And you know, there's some elementwhere you can't speed that up.
You just have to be.
Conspicuously doing the thingthat you are expected to do,
that you promised that youwould do over and over again.
And, you know, if you're greedyfor trust, it's much more, you
(15:51):
know, it's, it's, people hesitate.
It's a very, like, that's why Isay you can't really ask for it.
You just have to earn it.
It's like, like they couldsmell it out that you're wanting
it maybe more or you know,
Yeah.
Well, when people likeproclaim themselves to be
trustworthy, it's almostalways a counter signal, right?
Like if they're leading withlike, conspicuous, oh, like,
(16:11):
and, and frankly, the guy thatused to run, scribe did this.
you know, he, he would do likelots of claims about transparency
and honesty and integrityand, You know, I, I, my focus
for the team was like, let'sjust go back to fundamentals.
Let's just focus.
We have to be flawless on thefundamentals of what we're doing.
We don't miss deadlines,we don't ship mistakes.
We just do the work.
(16:32):
And the best advertisementis the work on our desk.
And we're in the business ofrebuilding a reputation like day
by day, week by week, book by book.
We're not gonna shout about it.
We're not gonna ask for it.
We're just going to do the work.
And, you know, I, I'venever been one to like.
I do not like to advertise myself.
I'd rather like just do goodwork and let the work speak
(16:55):
for itself and let others sortof, if they feel comfortable,
you know, recommend tell otherpeople that we did good work.
It's pretty, it's like atestament of what you did with,
with, the Naval book, you know?
Yeah.
I think, you know, you, youcan't, there is no amount
of marketing that overcomes.
A bad product.
and e even if it's true for that,some, you know, 3 months, 6 months,
(17:19):
12 months, like over the verylong period of time, you know, the
reputation in the product is theultimate, you know, determinant
of value and that's just theright place to keep the focus.
I like that.
No, I would say like, you know,'cause I was thinking is there some
kind of trust hack or anything,but it's, it's really doing
what you say, you know, becausemost people don't even do that.
(17:39):
Maybe, do it in a conciseor effective manner that
helps everybody and, andjust, just keep doing it.
Keep showing
up.
Like, don't
any, any trust hack Ithink destroys trust.
You know, it, it's kinda like,you know, I think we've all had
experiences with somebody wholike overdosed on how to win
friends and influence people,and they're like, Hey Joe, it's
(18:00):
really great to see you, Joe.
How's your wife, Joe, Joe?
Like all of the likehacks that you're like,
we've, we've met one time.
Like, just be a human.
and like let, let therelationship develop normally.
so it's a very, yeah, Ithink it like you just.
(18:20):
You just gotta be the kind of, bethe partner that you would want
That's good.
to be seen as.
Yeah, just walk the, walk thewalk and keep your mouth shut
and, let it take care of itself.
Be patient.
Be patient.
Be patient.
man, patience is probably the, it'sthe toughest, but it's, it's true.
You just gotta let stuff develop as
I, I mean, I, I, I will quote Navalat least five times in this episode.
(18:44):
'cause it's anoccupational hazard for me.
But, you know, impatiencewith action, patience with
results, I think that likedefines the trust thing.
Like you must be obsessive andimpatient about doing good work.
And you have to be patientwith allowing that reputation
to, you know, catch up tothe work that you're doing.
'cause it's always gonna bea la a lagging indicator.
(19:05):
Yes.
Yeah.
And that's layer, layer,everything with naval quotes.
'cause I know, I mean, there's oldbook obviously, but people love him.
So, and if you're not followingNaval for whatever reason, and
Eric like, go find him on Twitter.
I'm sure it's probably thebest place or X whatever.
So, but let's go to the, the,the model of scribe media.
(19:25):
Like, did things change from before?
I guess break it down in general.
'cause I know a lot offolks listening, watching.
Maybe have a book orthinking about a book.
I mean, let's be honest.
We'll, we'll address the wholetech thing and how there's
tools like AI now that couldspeed up their writing.
So people thinking, Hey, Icould just do this myself.
Like, why would I go to Scribeand, you know, work with you guys?
(19:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, the, I'll give you the, likethe context f first is that the
whole history of publishing isbasically, 150 year old business
model that the presumption is thatmost books are sold in bookstores,
that they're physical books.
the presumption is thatthey're marketed through
centralized media like TVand newspapers and magazines.
(20:09):
The presumption is also thatyou need like a big capital
investment upfront to like do abig print run of books and get
them all distributed in order to.
Sell books.
And when all those things were truea hundred years ago, even 50 years
ago, it made a ton of sense to havea traditional publishing model.
And where, you know, they giveauthors advances, they take control
of the copyright, and they basicallymanage the book in the inventory
(20:31):
of the book for a long period oftime, and they just pay the author
some royalties for having writtenthe thing in the first place.
And what is obvious to everybodyliving on the internet now
is like all three of thosehave actually flipped 180.
Like most books, this is notobvious, but most books, physical
books that you use now areprint on demand, like almost
(20:52):
everything you buy on Amazon.
Like, so there is no needfor a big upfront investment.
There's no physical inventory.
It's basically like selling adigital product and just like
Amazon takes care of printingand distribution for you.
The other is that most booksare sold on Amazon or on other
websites, and so you don'tactually need a huge, you know,
proprietary distribution network.
they still exist and people stillbuy from bookstores, but like the
(21:14):
majority of them are sold eitherdigitally or through Amazon, even
when there are physical versions.
And third, like.
You don't need, you know,going on the late show or
the morning show doesn'tmove a ton of copies anymore.
It's like going on podcasts,newsletters, and being
recommended on social media.
and so through with all those assort of givens, the model that
makes the most sense is actuallylike authors being in full control.
(21:37):
Authors now have their own audience.
They can sell directly throughtheir website or, you know, link
people directly from their socialmedia, their newsletter, whatever.
the authors have done all the workto de-risk the book, essentially.
the, the authors in many cases,like make more money from other
sources, you know, whether it'scoaching, speaking, consulting,
(21:58):
you know, a, a fund, likewhatever the business model is.
There's usually, especially forlike non-fiction business authors
that we normally work with, lotsof ways for them to win, other than
selling a ton of books and makingmoney from the royalties themselves.
so there's a few authors that we'veworked with that are like that.
So, David Goggins is, is the most.
Famous, and the highestselling, I mean, one of the
(22:19):
bestselling memoirs of all time.
And he, he basically couldn't getan offer that he was happy with
from a traditional publisher.
He's like, you guys are underundervaluing me, and, you know, if
you're not gonna pay me what I'mworth, I'll, I'll go do it myself.
And so he, he worked with Scribeand published, Can't Hurt Me
and Never Finished both with us.
Which means, yeah,both incredible books.
(22:41):
and he just went to war atlike, only David Goggins
can like selling that book.
Right.
So for years and years he,he just like would speak and
market and go on social andtalk about that book and sell
that book and go do interviews.
And he sold five, I mean thela this is an old number, but
it was in 5 million plus, youmean by closer to 10 by now.
(23:02):
and because he published withScribe, you know, he paid us.
A few tens of thousands of dollarsto do all of the publishing work,
but he kept all of the rest ofthat upside on millions of copies.
So he's gotta be one of the highestearning authors of all time.
He's out earning many authorswho are actually traditionally
published, but even sold morebooks just because of how he went
about it and the risk that he tookinitially to get his full upside.
(23:25):
Wow.
Okay.
That's cool.
And thanks for breaking downall the different elements
of like ROI of a publish,you know, a published author,
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, so I should say like, scribe'smodel is like the opposite
of traditional publishing inthat we don't offer advances.
We actually just charge a clear,fixed flat rate for the work that
a traditional publisher will do.
So you bring a manuscript to us.
(23:47):
we'll copy edit it.
We'll proofread it,we'll do cover design.
We'll do page layout.
We'll do illustrations.
We'll design all the finalfiles the way you want.
We'll help you get uploadedfor distribution and launched,
and then you make all thefinal creative decisions.
You keep all your rights andyou keep all your royalties.
It's, which is for one, forpeople like me and Goggins who
are gonna go sell a lot of books.
(24:08):
That's a huge ROI on theroyalties 'cause we're earning
two to four times as much as atraditionally published author
would on a per book basis.
But the more important thing isactually that there are thousands,
millions of authors that would, atraditional publisher would never
even consider because they'll onlysell a thousand books or 10,000
books and they're trying to findpeople that'll sell a hundred
(24:28):
thousand books or at minimum 50,000.
Otherwise, it just doesn'tmake sense for them to take
the risk and do the work.
But I talk to authors everysingle day who wanna write a
book for their own reasons,just to impact the social issue.
Or they want to take the they, theywant to get their message out there.
They want to claim like theywanna increase their credibility.
They want to tell their story, theywant to give back to their industry.
(24:52):
They want to, Really connectdeeply with their clients
or their potential clients.
And they may, you know,there's people that'll
only sell a thousand books.
They, they may giveaway a thousand books,
Exactly
but they'll get $10 million inbusiness to their core business
or raise a hundreds of millions ofdollars as a result of having that
(25:12):
book out there and getting it intothe right hands and building trust
on a very deep level through themeans of this like very important
timeless medium that is justreally difficult to fake, like.
It really, you can't,
yeah, if you, you write a greatbook, like you probably know what
you're talking about, you know?
It's still more important.
Like I, I love your thoughts onthis because you know, you have AI
(25:35):
and everybody feels like, you know,information's at my fingertips.
I could be, you know,knowledgeable in seconds on
whatever topic I, I want.
Or I can look up this person's bookand get the summary of everything.
And the answer I wouldsay is yes to that.
But the value of a book, like, Iwould love to hear it even more
from you going down this vein of.
You know, the ROI are thereasons why people would publish.
(25:57):
It's, it's kinda whatyou're stating here.
It's like you can make it your ownon the front end, but there what
a business model should be definedon the back end, I would imagine.
And yeah.
Any thoughts on that or how scribekinda steers people do that process?
Yeah, I mean, we likewe talk to everybody.
We try to get an idea of whatthe context is that they're
publishing this book into.
So there are people who comein and say, I truly just
(26:19):
want to impact this issue.
And if I, you know, like one,author that I remember is, the
issue that they wanted to impact.
They're, they're retired.
They did it very well forthemselves, and they're like, I
am dedicating years of my lifeand a large amount of money
to impacting gay teen suicide,and if I can save one life.
This will be worth it.
(26:40):
And I do not careabout anything else.
I don't care if I sell like copies.
I don't care if I give 'em away.
I don't care like what it costs.
Like if I, as soon as I reachthat threshold, I'm great.
I will keep reaching for two andthree and four and a hundred.
But like, that's my,my measure of success.
And no traditional publisheris gonna care about that.
like that's a big risk to take.
(27:01):
But if that's important to you,and I think that book could
be good for the world who's,who's not gonna support that.
but mo most importantly, likeif you just have a vision like
that, we will help you do it.
But different example, along similarlines is like, Paul Franco wrote a
book called, Successful Successions.
And it's a very, very targeted, andwe, we often coach authors to do
(27:21):
this, like uncomfortably targeted.
So his book is for, Certifiedfinancial planners who own
their own firm, who are retiringwithin the next five years
Okay.
and they don't know, and they'relike not sure how to transition.
They're not sure what agood transition looks like.
They're not sure whattheir options are.
And Paul's business is to buythose trans, the firms from people
(27:43):
transitioning out who are likeretiring and just ready to be
doing a different chapter and.
So they search for this problem.
They see his book.
Amazon is a very underratedas a search engine.
so they search for it, theyfind it, they buy it, they read
it, and then they pick up thephone and call Paul and try to
see if he'll buy their firm.
'cause they like how hethinks and they trust him.
And they just had this experienceof like understanding his
(28:06):
philosophy and his expertise.
And you know, as far asmarketing goes, like you just
made, you know, four bucks.
To spend 10 hours with this clientin this very high leverage way
that now they pick up the phoneand call you and ask you to buy it.
It's not, there's no other,
Hmm.
show me another marketing channelthat like makes you money,
(28:28):
builds trust at a deep level andcreates like high intent inbound
Absolutely.
And I see it.
yeah, I'm partnered with, one of mypartners is Mike ings here in San
Diego, and we, yeah, I'm, I'm oneof the, the fractional, AI officers.
We consult ton of businesses, butyou know, this program we do on
the back end, it's high level,you know, almost $10,000 thing,
(28:48):
but it's all driven by the bookon the front end, and we see
where all the leads are coming.
It's all from the book.
And everyone I talked to.
Yep.
Read the book and like noteven all the way through
and invested or needed.
I knew I needed you guys.
I'm like, there it is.
it's incredible.
It's so difficult to createthat level of trust, and there's
(29:09):
so few mediums that can do it,and if you're out there like
dropping a bunch of paid ads.
It's that, you know, back goesback to that level of trust, like
when you were asking to be trustedinstead of just doing something
and letting yourself be evaluated,as high, trustworthy or not.
it is just a very different, it'sa very different kind of climb.
yeah,
(29:30):
yeah, it's, it's interesting.
I'm glad to hear you havinga similar experience.
Absolutely man.
And there's, and yeah, I'm notgonna say, you know, paid ads
are evil or anything, but Ithink the big thing is, like you
said, like be in a place wherepeople are looking for you.
Amazon, you know,don't gloss this over.
I know you didn't, but likefor anybody who might've missed
it, Amazon is a search engine.
I don't know where theyrank with everything, but
(29:51):
it ain't going anywhere.
And they're.
Apps, you know, integrated nowwith even, you have all the AI
stuff, you know, like they'llpoint there as a source too.
Like there's so being there, youneed a book or some kind of product,
but yeah, why not give 'em the book?
Yeah, it's, it's, it is anincredible thing and, and the fact
(30:11):
that you need to have written abook to get a search engine results
page on Amazon is a very high bar.
There's, there's authors withus who are selling software
like B2B SaaS software, likebig contracts through a book.
and because they're some of the onlyones with a book out there about
it, and we work with it quite a few.
Organizations actually like publisha book as their organization or
(30:32):
have a systematic thing where likeone of their executives publishes
a book every year that helps sortof build their mind, share each
in different ways That attracts,sometimes it's to attract employees
or partners or customers orinvestors, like whatever it is.
It's a very, you know, because it'snot a traditional marketing channel,
I actually think it becomes really
(30:52):
Yeah.
I think so, man.
Well, with, and I want to goto go to ai 'cause I, you know,
it's obviously a hot topic.
It's only getting more hotby the minute, it seems
like when everything'sgetting cheaper, faster, you
know, tools for everybody.
of course you could write a bookvery quickly with ai, but I. I
wouldn't say it's all about speed.
You can write aneffective book as well.
(31:14):
Like I'll, I'll say an example.
I'm an advisor of a company,called delphi.ai, and one of the
use cases, lesser known, is youcan write a really solid book or
at least start the process becauseit's all based off your knowledge.
Like this digital mind,
we trump it.
So you can like literally pull inquotes and all that stuff from like
this podcast, I can make a book.
(31:35):
And that's actually the plan.
It's like, why not?
It's almost like a TimFerris's tribe of mentors
kinda style, you know?
But like how would you, I guessmy question would be like,
how do you guys have peopleuse AI or some tools to kind
of get that manuscript, theinitial draft out of them?
'cause I know that's thebiggest hurdle for most people.
(31:55):
Yeah, I mean the, the advancein transcription tools has been
huge over the past few years,which helps a lot because a
big part of our method, isactually interviewing people
and writing the book for them.
Like there's a lot of peoplehave, you know, writer's
block is a real thing.
Talkers block is not a thing.
true.
Yeah.
so if you're sitting, if like partof our, you know, our, our scribes
(32:19):
that we, that our people sort ofcreate a partner in writing their
book are not just great writersand not just thoughtful about
structuring the book, but reallygreat, great engaging interviewers.
And so they'll really work withyou to position this and outline
it and understand what you wannaaccomplish, and then they'll.
it'll feel like afriendly conversation.
They just pull the information, thestories, the important principles,
the the key quotes out of you.
(32:40):
And that's the processfor running into the book.
our, we are always likeexperimenting with ai.
It is still, I, I think it'll.
The end result will be to makethe great people more prolific.
and there are things that it speedsup, but not, it's still not great
for like long form pros generation.
(33:02):
It just doesn't quite have the,like, the touch yet, that you want.
And so it, there are advantagesto it, but it's just, it's
sort of a different trade offof like you spend more time
editing because you can't.
The first draft is alittle further off.
and the, especially when you'retrying to build a very long,
very thoughtful like threadof continuous ideas, it's much
(33:25):
easier for it to lose the threat.
And it's much harder to findwhen the threat is lost.
So you just have to, like, ifyou did AI generation, you have
to spend a little more time inediting and be a little more
concerned about the structure andthe linearity of the thoughts.
But I think to your point, likedepending on the kind of book that
you wanna write, if what you wannawrite is a very disjointed tribe
of mentors thing where you'rejust like, here's an episode,
(33:46):
condense it down, plug it in.
I think those will be verycommoditized relatively quickly.
I. Not that thatmakes it a bad format.
It could still be a great format,but like AI will unlock that one
sooner than a novel, for example.
but we, I've seen really good, like,it's just a great sounding board.
I mean, it's a tireless,tireless sounding board and,
(34:09):
proofreader and editor and itcould just be a really good way.
actually I did a great, One of myvery smartest friends about AI and
usage in general is, Sean Devine.
And, I had him on, I hadhim on my podcast, smart
Friends, and he was like, thiswas a year and a half ago.
And he's like, it's comp AI hascompletely changed how I hire.
(34:29):
I now hire for, two traits, whichis like curiosity and endurance.
Hmm.
Yep.
Like the, the, the, I could be, Icould be, misquoting that, but like
endurance or something very like it.
He's like, this is themost important thing.
Like you now have not just a bicyclefor the mind, but like a nuclear
(34:51):
reactor for the mind, but it onlyreally operates as long as you do.
Like, you have to keep the,you have to keep hitting
the ball back because it,it will iterate instantly.
And so if you're not relike feeding it something.
If you're not reacting toit, if you're not, continuing
to push and refine it,then like it stops working.
And so, you know, can you put in a12 hour day with like a relentless
(35:15):
volley partner who's just likehitting the ball back instantly?
It's like playingspeed playing, right?
Yeah.
It's like playing chessagainst the computer.
Like it moves instantlyand you're like.
Fuck.
I need to think.
Yeah.
so, you know, that, but forall work is like a really
interesting psychological shiftand knowing that, you know,
this is another one that Seanmentioned that's counterintuitive,
(35:37):
but like options are free.
I. When we're working witha human, we're used to being
like, gimme three good options.
And I'll pick one because saying,gimme a hundred good options, and
I'll pick one would be psychotic.
Mm-hmm.
and so, so like, but withAI you can say, gimme a
hundred, gimme a thousand.
I hate all of those.
Gimme 2000 more like,okay, now rank order them.
Now throw away anything like.
It's very, there's somecounterintuitive things about it
(36:00):
that, you know, a lot of writers Ithink are relearning how to write
and with, with new tools and, youknow, I like, I very much love my
job and I love talking to authorsall day, but I've also like, shit, I
wish I could just, I block off sometime and really like wrap my head
around working with these tools.
Oh, I bet, man.
I mean, it's a, it's a monumentaltask and it's, it's good that,
(36:21):
yeah, I position at least myselfin a way that I can monetize that
and be the source of that truth.
but yeah, man, I mean, it's, it'schanging and the thing I always just
say is like, just get your hands onsomething that you can stick with
and really understand and graspand, and like you said, be curious.
You can keep goingdown the rabbit hole.
yeah.
I mean, I'll, I'lljust plug this here.
I know at timely, you know,deep seek is, is like making
(36:44):
all the, the world news itseems like, but perplexity is
like my go-to research tool.
But when you hook the twotogether, which you can now,
it's like insane amount of realtime searching plus reasoning.
And it's, it's talk aboutlike deep research in seconds
very cool.
Try that out.
Yeah,
(37:04):
All right.
it's, it's pretty sweet.
But, how about like Naval?
I wanna, I wanna bring outsome philosophy, like some
things that have impacted youthrough, especially through
this journey of, you know,becoming the CEO of Scribe Media.
What, 18 months ago?
And like, one of the quotesthat Naval just sticks out to me
is that happiness is a choice.
And I, I genuinely believethat's true and that's
(37:28):
kind of, I don't know.
Some people feel like happinessshouldn't be the thing that
you strive for, but it'slike, why the hell not?
Yeah.
I don't know what else is there?
And, and yeah.
So how does maybe that quoteor something like that from
Naval helped you through?
I'm sure like burning itout throughout the nights,
you know, figuring itjust the stressful times.
(37:48):
Yeah, I think, You know, choice isalmost, he has said it's a choice.
He has also said it's a skill.
And I think like skill is actually amore useful frame because you don't,
when you hear happiness is a choice,it's almost, it almost makes you
feel guilty, you know, or something.
It's like,
Yeah.
just choose to be happy, dumbass.
(38:10):
Like, what's wrong with you?
Don't, you know, there's aswitch you can just flip.
And like, while that.
Like, wow, that's probably true.
You have to do some work tobuild that switch, right?
or remember that it'sthere or you know, have it
in arm's reach, you know?
So I think the skill framing.
(38:31):
Reminds you that it'll take timeto get better at, and that you
should expect to have to workat getting better at every day.
But it also, you know, it willyield to effort and intention.
And if you work on becominghappier, you can become happier.
I also remember, I've been followingthe ball for long enough to know
that like he wasn't always happy andhe didn't always focus on happiness.
He didn't always value happiness.
(38:51):
and so saying that it's a,you know, a, a choice is
not to imply that it's easy.
but that you, but that it is.
Something that you cancontrol with effort over time.
and it's funny, you know, he's,I think he spent a long time
being unhappy while getting richand then got rich and is like,
Hmm, that didn't make me happy.
(39:14):
maybe that's a different quest.
And so like, I thinknot that many people.
That, you know, I knowsome really happy people.
I know some really rich people.
I know very few, like very happyand very rich people, especially,
you know, Naval who went on thequest to become both of those.
It's not like he was born happyand happened to become rich.
It's not like he was born richand happens to be happy, like he
(39:38):
started without either of themand deliberately built both.
And so this book is very much like.
Here are the principles andthe tactics and the mindset
that he used to go from,you know, not that, to that.
And, you know, he,he's got an interest.
Like, his description of this islike, if you wanna know how to lose
weight, you don't go ask somebodywho's been skinny their whole life.
They're not even gonna knowwhat you're talking about.
(39:58):
Like, you, you don't find somebodywho was, you know, got up to
600 pounds and then got backdown to, you know, 1 50, 1 60.
Like that person knowswhat they're talking about.
'cause they've been on bothsides and they've had to
fight the fight to get.
You know, to, to overcome the thinga bigger, they, they beat a bigger
dragon than you're trying to beat.
And like that's theperson who can teach you.
and so I think, you know, whenyou're filtering for people to
(40:21):
read, people to emulate heroes,you know, there's a lot of people,
talk in a game that, they learnfrom somebody else, not firsthand.
And that's just a different, youknow, there's a different level
of knowledge that comes with that.
that's a good frame.
Yeah.
And.
Yeah, that, and I know Naval,you're absolutely right.
Like it, it's cool tosee that progression.
And I know you outlinedthat a ton in, in the book.
(40:43):
Like is there something thatyou, either from the Almanac
or, or just studying naval,that keeps you grounded?
Like is there a tacticthat you go to often?
I, there's a lot onthe happiness side.
There's a lot of little ones thatjust became habits, that, that
I think he, I mean, he's sucha good distiller and he comes
(41:05):
up these sticky little phrases.
And so, some of these seem verysmall, but if you do them every day,
if you do them multiple times a day,
It does, I think, meaningfullychange your, like, base
level of happiness.
And so, two in particular, there'sone that, you know, I drink coffee
every morning and he's got onethat says like, if you can't be
(41:26):
happy with a cup of coffee, youwon't be happy with a yacht.
I
Which is, which is a beautifulencapsulation of everything
that you need to know about,like learning to appreciate
the things that you have and.
Take it.
That reminds me, and I thinkabout it on my first cup of
coffee every single day andjust like take a second with the
steamy mug before your first sip.
(41:47):
And you're just like, this littlething is a fucking miracle that
I can just really appreciate.
And if I can't learn to appreciatethis, there's no point in
striving for anything else.
So like practice appreciation withthis thing in this moment, this
humble thing, and let that be likea moment that is complete of itself.
It's like very mindfulness.
(42:08):
It's like that moment ofzen that that you just
carved out for yourself, you
Yeah.
And, and you can, I think he hadanother one about a toothbrush.
that's like whenever he is brushinghis teeth, like he, he uses
that as a moment to just like,concentrate on the feeling, like
how good the toothbrush feels.
Like don't look at your phone.
Don't think about the tasksthat you're supposed to be
(42:29):
doing, like, or could be doing.
Like, just be very present.
and having those triggersthat are things that will
happen to you all the time.
And another one is, whenyou feel the sun on your
skin, look up and smile
Hmm.
and just like tiny thing.
I mean, you live in SanDiego, so you'll, you'll have
to stop doing that at somepoint and go get some shit.
Go get some stuff done.
Yeah.
(42:50):
don't stare right at it.
Important,
Yeah, Huberman sets tostare at it, but it's gotta
be low on the horizon.
I know we're alldoing that these days.
But yeah, just little, littlethings that stick with you.
so yeah, I, some of thoseare, have worked their
way into my daily life and
that I, I really appreciate.
yeah, thanks for Sha.
Is there one that hasn't worked?
Like, or one that you just like, allright, Naval, that sounded really
(43:12):
good, but it's fucking useless.
one, one that I'm still strugglingto implement, that I think Naval
is probably better at than meis, is just like, He's got a
very, it's almost a Buddhist,approach of the, like, only the
individual ascends or transcends.
And that it is a prettyhard line on like, you're
(43:33):
not responsible for otherpeople's feelings or happiness.
and that's just a reallydifficult thing in practice
day to day, you know,
Yeah.
you've got people you lovearound you all the time and you
care about how they feel andhow their experience is going.
And, and I'm not actuallysure that it's like ideal.
To totally separate, you know, itis not ideal for your relationships.
(43:55):
It might be, you know, if you wantto go become a monk and like take
complete, perfect accountabilityfor your internal state, and you're
just observe, observing like theobjective neurochemicals in your
brain and how much dopamine you get,maybe, yeah, it is optimal to like.
Totally separate from allrelationships, but that's at least
not the way I want to live my life.
(44:16):
And so there's a lot of timeswhen, you know, that is just
a, a messy area of trade-offs,I think, around relationships.
And when you, when you do chooseto take on other people's emotional
states to show empathy and workthrough something together and,
you know, or, or share, you know,share pain, share experiences,
And not jump to conclusionstoo quickly or try to solve
(44:39):
it for someone else, or maybeeven yourself sometimes, you
know, just like let it simmer.
Something usually connects for, for
yeah, yeah, and, you know, buthe's, he's decades into this
journey, so it's possible that I,that's just a naive take from me.
But, it is, I, that is an extreme.
I think he's got a relativelyextreme stance, and it comes
from the philosophies that, youknow, that he's right in some
(45:00):
of the extreme, some of thephilosophers are extreme by nature.
so I, I don't disagree with itso much as like, have chosen a
different path or at least livea different path in the moment.
And, yeah, we're, we're all,we're all on different paths
at different places, so,
Absolutely, man, differentupbringings and all that.
So, you know, gottakeep that in mind.
We're all starting in differentplaces, which is totally fine.
(45:22):
Give yourself a break,everyone, please.
So I, well, that leads me to thisthought of like, you've had a,
you've worn a lot of hats and stilldo, you know, author, curator, I,
I call you an author, obviously.
and, you know, founder, investor,podcaster, you know, and all
these things Now, CEO, like.
(45:42):
I'm thinking of fulfillment, likethat's the frame I have here.
So is there like a, a myth,almost like a toxic myth
that you think that you hadto unlearn in this process?
You know, for as a C orany of these hats, like has
something come up that you'vereframed over that those years?
I want to say I've sort ofgiven up on the concept of done.
(46:09):
Like there is no, there is nofinish line really, like any, any
given finish line is arbitrary and,
I, I will always be working onsomething and just trying to find
good way, high leverage ways tolike, make the future better.
and.
(46:32):
That, that work will neverbe done, and I'll never be
quite satisfied with it.
And that's like I have to learnto, learn to exist in a state of
happiness without anything beinglike done and complete and at rest.
so, you know, there's another,there's a neval that's like,
happiness is peace and motionand peace is happiness at rest.
(46:53):
mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's a
And so learning to becomelike peaceful and in motion.
At the same time, learn to be happyand satisfied without feeling done
'cause, you will never be done.
is is a constant quest.
(47:13):
and I'm not good at it, butI, I feel lucky to have at
least learned that that's.
Something that I needto get better at.
and try to, you know, refocus on andjust, you know, live in that space.
And some of the peoplethat I admire the most are
really, really good at that.
You know, they even under highstress, you know, heavy fire, they
(47:37):
can be peaceful and productive.
And I think that's the mindsetto have to stay in the game for
a really long time, which is whatyou need to do if you're gonna
have great compounding resultsand great relationships And,
You know, easier said than done,especially when you hold yourself
to high standards and you care alot about, you know, what you're
doing and who you're doing it with.
(47:57):
But, that's, that's a goal.
That's a focus.
I love it, man.
I kind of want to end it rightthere 'cause that's, it's impactful.
Thanks for sharing.
Definition of done.
Yeah.
What is that?
Yeah.
Make, yeah.
So thanks for, thanksfor sharing, man.
And yeah, who, I guess acouple things, like who are
(48:17):
you following closely now?
Obviously Naval, Balaji.
I think you have something withMusk coming up here, right?
Yeah, I'm working on ElonMusk, very like, tough to pit
down, but I'm very focused.
I'm, I'm focused on the like.
First few decades of buildingthat he did, and like what
makes his mindset and hisapproach really unique in the,
(48:40):
the scale of problems that hetackles and how the intensity
with which he tackles them.
I think there's something for allentrepreneurs to learn in that.
And so that's really the bookthat's coming together, this year.
Yeah, I'm, I'm excited about it.
I hope that it'll,I hope it's helpful.
I hope it helps, you know,birth another, a generation
of a thousand Musks and, youknow, usher in a golden age in
(49:02):
the next industrial revolution.
That's the, that's myhumble hope for this book.
Nice.
I love it.
Yeah.
yeah,
yeah.
I, I follow, I, I think, Casey,er is, is a little more technical
than like naval or Musk.
but I think he's anincredible talent, un
underrated, under followed,
(49:23):
Very, very much in the techworld, but like brilliant.
brilliant guy.
I don't follow 'em, sothat's great though.
Add 'em to the list.
Yeah.
Hi.
Highly recommended.
Cool.
Awesome, man.
Well, Eric, dude, this hasbeen a pleasure and thanks
for being so open, honest.
I know you are.
And first time we chatted, butlike yeah, we, we went there.
So
(49:43):
Cool.
Of course.
Tha thank you for having me.
This is, very fun.
Yeah.
In scribe media.com,is that the best place?
Or where else should they findScribe and then also find you
Yeah, if you, if you're thinkingabout a book, if you think a book
can help build your business,if you've got a, a strain
notes app full of book ideas,
or Otter
(50:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Perfect.
Yeah.
Yeah.
so come, come just chat with us.
and we're happy to like, take youthrough that, scribe media.com.
Just get a, a consult withsomebody on the team and, yeah,
all my personal stuff is atejorgenson.com and I'm on Twitter
X all the time, at Eric Jorgenson.
So happy to, to DM or, you know,get you on the newsletter and
(50:25):
Yeah.
whatever el whatever elseyou're interested in.
Go check it out, thepodcast and everything.
We will link everything, show notes,description, make it easy for you.
So Eric, thank you my man.
Mm-hmm.
Appreciate you.
there is no amount ofmarketing that overcomes.
(00:02):
A bad product.
even if it's true for that,some, you know, 3 months, 6
months, 12 months, like overthe very long period of time,
you know, the reputation inthe product is the ultimate,
you know, determinant of value
impatience with action, patiencewith results, I think that
like defines the trust thing.
Authors now have their own audience.
They can sell directly throughtheir website or, you know, link
(00:25):
people directly from their socialmedia, their newsletter, whatever.
they may give away a thousand books.
Exactly.
But they'll get $10 million inbusiness to their core business
or raise a hundreds of millionsof dollars as a result of
having that book out there andgetting it into the right hands
show me another marketing channelthat like makes you money,
builds trust at a deep level andcreates like high intent inbound
(00:49):
Eric, it's good tohave you here, brother.
and I'm happy we get to connectand I've been reading this, this
is actually, this book here hasbeen by my bedside for years now
since it came out The Almanac ofNaval Akan, where you, I dunno
if you, yeah, I would, maybe youwere the curator of that book.
the
I never, I never really knowwhat, what verb to use, 'cause
(01:10):
write doesn't, you know,write, build, edit, curate,
create whatever you want to do.
But you're obviouslydoing a lot more.
But that's, that was the firsttime, you know, I was introduced
to your way of thinking andjust like the sheer massive,
like just the work that wouldgo into something like that.
I would love to dive in lateron that, but I mean, yourself,
man, you're doing some, somevery interesting things.
(01:32):
You know, scribe media is,is, you're the CEO over there.
So I mean, I guess how areyou doing, you know, how are,
how are things right now?
Let's start there.
Like,
I'm, I'm learning to juggle.
I'm learning to juggle.
It's, you know, it's, it's hardto, Split your attention across
a handful of different projects.
But, it's also really fun.
And I think, you know, you,you just try to stay in a place
(01:54):
where you take the perspective,you know, look for synergies,
not, not distractions.
so find ways that thingscan like feed each other
and stack on each other.
And, you know, my, buddy DavidCenter's got a great line.
It's like opportunity, well handledleads to more opportunity and
true.
Yeah.
as sort of you, if you dosomething well, it unlocks new
(02:16):
opportunities and, The opportunitycost of your time should
continue to go up over time.
Like that's a good problem to have.
And yeah, you just end up witha lot of balls in the air.
Yeah.
And you probably get used toit just even more and more.
I hope so,
one day, one day.
one day.
Well, I mean, I'm, I'm sointrigued by the story.
Like I was mentioning, youknow, I've, I've known about
(02:38):
Scribe for a lot of years.
I've seen, you know, Tuckerand Tucker Max speak about it.
I think he was one ofthe founders, right?
Or co-founders.
Founder.
Yeah.
Tucker and, Zach Obrat werethe co-founders of Scribe.
that's right.
Yeah.
So, I mean, interesting story.
I would love for you tobreak things down, but you're
at the helm right now and.
I guess, yeah.
Where would you wannastart with that?
(02:59):
'cause I have some, I have somequestions and thoughts, but I mean,
like this episode I feel like is,it'd be a great journey about what
you've gone starting as an author,a writer, and now wrote thing.
Yeah.
Cool.
Yeah, so I'll, if I do maybethe story of Scribe and the
story of Eric and they'll,they'll merge, in the third act.
But, we've got, like you mentioned,it's the right place to start.
(03:20):
Tucker Max and Zach obrien andTucker is, you know, for people
who haven't heard of him, a verysuccessful author, he's one of the
original like, blog to book guys.
I mean, millions and millionsof copies sold multiple times.
New York Times best seller.
and so he got all thesecalls from friends, so
hilarious, hilarious guy.
like pathologically honest.
(03:41):
just a really, reallyinteresting dude.
And, he's, you know, we were sortof reading each other's blogs
early on as he was starting Scribe.
So I also had been followingScribe since the very beginning.
And I think the vision that theyhad for where publishing was
heading was incredible and evenmore incredible 10 years ago.
And they've really like the, sortof the increased rise in hybrid
(04:01):
and people leaving the traditional.
You know, leaders leaving thetraditional publishing and setting
up their own kind of more uniquemodels that are closer to what
Scribe has done are all likereally interesting sort of proof
points of their original vision.
And, you know, over 10years they built up this
really impressive company.
you know, they, I think it wasoriginally it was like bootstrapped
(04:23):
and grew like crazy, grew up to,you know, tens of millions and,
you know, dozens of employees.
And after eight yearsor so, they were.
You know, they're founders andthey're ready to go do other stuff.
Tucker has a family and he's, kindof ready to retiring, go do his
ranching and write his memoir.
And, and, and Zach on the otherside is like a super genius and
he went off and did, he becameone of the biggest like bug bounty
(04:45):
hunters in the Ethereum ecosystem.
So he's like in the cryptoworld and they totally
went different directions.
Like both brilliant andinteresting and awesome guys.
And, as they stepped back from thecompany, the guy who, who they had
hired as CEO before and who sortof took sole control of the company
after they left, I, it went offthe rails a little bit, like, and
(05:08):
a little bit turned into a lot andthere's a very, like Tucker wrote
an incredible kind of postmortemabout this whole thing and some
of the psychological he did inthat post where I think no other.
Business case study I've ever readhas done, which is understand the
psychology of the leader that ledto the mistakes in the business.
And then ultimately the,you know, the outcome that,
(05:32):
affected so many people.
It, it ended up being, quitean ugly bankruptcy actually,
which I got caught up in.
so
an author right?
At the
yeah, so, so that's like smashcut back to like act one of Eric.
like I, you know.
Came from the venturebacked startup world.
I've always been a, a, likea big reader and writer,
(05:53):
and I love, like tweeting.
Turned into blogging.
Blogging, turned into writingthis book, the Almanac Naval.
And, since Tucker, I'd been readinghis blog and following him and, he
was just one of the first people Ireached out to and I was starting
to talk to authors about, like, I.
How do you navigate thisworld of publishing?
What are the options?
It's very confusing.
It's only gotten more confusing.
so he was kind enough to takesome time with me and lay out
(06:16):
the options and talk to me aboutmy book and help kind of really
develop it and move it along.
I. And so I ended up, publishingthat first book with Scribe
as an author in 20 19, 20 20.
And I had an incredible experience.
Like the team was perfect.
I learned so much.
It was a, a remarkably like,transformative experience.
And that book changed my life,you know, and, and as a model,
(06:39):
I thought Scribe was justso, I thought it was dead on.
I thought it was so correct.
I thought they were very, Theywere just really honest about
like, look, you as the author,the CEO of the book, like
you're going to front the cost.
You're gonna take the risk,but you also assume full
control of this thing.
You get to make all thefinal creative decisions.
You get to craft the book the wayyou want to, that serves your goals
(06:59):
and your life, and you're gonna getthe full upside, which especially
in from a book like Naval,turned out to be life changing,
Yeah, that was what?
Million plus copies, right?
Yeah, I think we're, we'reat a million and a half.
I think.
you know, all, all formats,all languages like worldwide.
so it's, it, you know, it's abig world, but, you know, not a
lot of books make it there, man.
it's, it's crazy.
(07:19):
I. You know, people.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I mean, it's, it is a testamentto like Val's wisdom, I think.
And you know, the word of moutharound it has been just crazy.
So, I, I don't think it's, youknow, I worked hard on the book,
but I don't think it's like,it's not some genius marketing
hack that I have, right.
It's just like a good product thatchanges people's lives and a lot of
(07:41):
people can get something from it andit's just, you know, had wind in its
sales very, very luckily for months
It's value, it's value packed, man.
Like, there's no, there'sno fluff in there.
Like, seriously, if you don'thave, I'll, I'll be linking it
in the, notes, all that stuff.
Easy
Thank you.
I loved, I love to seea copy that's just Yeah.
Beat to shit that's gothighlights on every page.
It's all dogeared.
(08:02):
Yeah.
It's been in and out of thebackpack a thousand times.
or, or like you said,people are like, yeah, you,
you've been in my bedroom.
It's been sitting next to my toilet.
You know, whatever the,
Whatever it's seen, you know, soyou're top of mind and it's true.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's perfect.
I love to hear it.
or yeah, being gifted, like, I thinkbeing gifted is the best compliment
a book can receive, right?
So, when people are like, I gavethis to my little brother, it
(08:25):
changed his life, he changedhis major, dropped outta school
or quit med school or whatever.
The thing is that,
Yeah.
you know, sort of wrappingyour head around some of these
principles does for people, so.
I, I immediately, I mean, especiallywith a book like that, I, and
an experience like that withScribe, I immediately started
writing my second book, andwhich was the anthology of B and
that came out, like late 2023.
(08:46):
But that was the book that I waspublishing with Scribe also, and
got caught up in this bankruptcy.
So, you know, when the, the sortof the house fell, You know, I took
a loss just like everybody else inthat, but I also was like, man, I
feel like I owe this company, youknow, something like, some level
of effort to save them after,you know, the, all of the good
(09:08):
that I got from them and all, youknow, the wonderful experience
I had with the team and therespect I had for everybody there.
and so I started just making somephone calls and I, lucky enough
through just conferences andTwitter and friendships to know
people who buy companies, or, or.
You know, work in privateequity or permanent equity.
Yeah.
So I started making phone callsand I found these guys, Eva
(09:31):
and Xavier, who run EnduringVentures, who I'd met a few
times at, you know, at BerkshireHanaway conference and, I think
Capital Camp, but a few others.
And, yeah, they're just good news.
They do, they run a long-termholding company that's so,
it's not a fund, they're nottrying to flip companies.
They, they buy and hold for the longrun and they have a background in
publishing and, and a backgroundin, you know, distressed situations,
(09:52):
which like this definitely was
so, they, they knew the, the nowsituation you're in, but they also
had that long-term vision that, youknow, they'll stick around with.
Yeah.
And they saw, they saw, youknow what I saw, which is
like, this is a unique model.
It is.
It had been a great brand untilthis very moment, which basically
one guy like screwed it up.
and, you know, they're,they're just long-term thinkers
(10:12):
and so they, they saw thepotential, I think, and they, I.
We're willing to, do some of thereally messy, heavy lifting to like
try to, you know, in situations likethat, there's no perfect solution.
There's no, everybody's gonnaend up angry about something.
and there's a lot of pain to goaround, like economic and emotional
yeah.
supporting what, thousands,I think what you have to say,
(10:34):
like 2000 plus, authors, right?
I don't know what was going onat that time, but trust, you
know, like there's a lot ofthat that probably is lost and
you're just like, oh, shoot.
You know, it's caughtin the middle, right?
There were, there were hundredsof active authors and, a, a lot
of people got, It just ended up inreally unenviable situations and
I've heard some, some horror storiesand, I've been trying to like, have
(10:56):
conversations with those people andmake up for that and do what we can.
essentially what ended uphappening is we started a brand
new company, hired over some ofthe team and basically bought the,
the IP from the bank that, yeah.
So the, the kind of mechanicsare, are interesting.
It's not my expertise, but, to mysurprise, they called me after and
said like, we, okay, we got this newthing and we need somebody to run
(11:17):
it, and we think that should be you.
So I was like, all right,let's give this thing a
you, you raised your hand, man.
I mean,
Yeah.
that's like 90% of thebattle right there.
Maybe more even you.
Yeah.
Yeah, and it ended up being avery interesting, like, you know,
most people I know who are CEOseither built their business from
the ground up or spent 15 yearsthere and got hired into the role
(11:38):
after sort of working their way up.
And so I think, you know, there,there's this sort of, Search
fund and small business and smallbusiness acquisition and like
private equity world that, isfull of kind of these weirdly
interesting, almost one-offstories of like, you know, seller
finance acquisitions and or,or privately funded or search
(11:58):
funded or independent sponsors.
And this ended up being like avery weird combination of all of
those, like kind of by accident.
But it's a very, it's a cool,it's a really cool world and very
interesting stuff happens in it.
Man.
Well, I'm, I'm, I'm thinkingof like the moment when you
stepped into the role as CEO.
Like, was there, I don't know,like was there, what was the
(12:20):
feeling that you had at that point?
Because you obviously probablylearning a ton and things that you
didn't totally know about, like.
Was there something that maybeyour gut was feeling that
like spreadsheets and all thenumbers really weren't talking,
like there had to have beensomething happening there?
It's a lot.
I mean, you said it right?
It's a lot of learning.
It's a lot of getting orientedas quickly as possible, to,
(12:40):
to a lot of things, right?
Like you are meeting the whole team,you're meeting the customers, you're
trying to understand the processes.
there's so much to wrap yourhead around really quickly.
And, friends who've been throughthis before warned me, they're
like, you will get asked to makea decision in the first week
that you don't think you'll beready for, for six more months.
(13:00):
And like, you just have to do thebest you can with what you have.
So it's a very, it is a very likeseat of the pants experience and,
but I, you know, all, all you cando is kind of keep doing your best.
And, you know, I'm 18 monthsin now and I, I'm still like,
I'm still trying to learn.
I'm still, there's somuch, you know, you can't
possibly know enough.
And every additional piece ofinformation helps, like every
(13:21):
customer you can talk to.
trying to understand yourwhole team's roles ever
more deeply and how theyall fit together and the co.
Changing environments, you know, thedifferent offers, different authors,
different tools, different vendors.
True.
so yeah, it's, it is alreadya dynamic environment and
then you're trying to playcatch up on top of it.
But, it's also kindawhat makes it fun.
(13:42):
You know, it's a very fun, I. It'sfun to kind of be the, like, to
some extent, the nexus of all ofthat information and have it all
kind of like feeding into you.
It's a lot to process, but,
it's, it's very fun.
Like for, for somebody who'sdeeply and, endlessly curious
and hungry to understand allof this, like, it's fantastic.
(14:02):
right in the middle of it.
Yeah.
I mean, I see a bunch ofbooks behind you, so it's like
you're literally surroundedby authors all day, every day.
Yeah, dude, it is.
I tell you, it is brutal to likehave, you know, six to eight
author like meetings with authorsa day who they, they explain
their book Heidi, and you're like,shit, I wanna read that book.
And then half an hour lateryou're like, that sounds amazing.
(14:22):
I would love to read that book.
and
having podcasts like this, like,I'm like, that's a great idea.
Shit.
Nope.
Don't focus, focus.
yeah.
Yeah.
It's, it is very easy for the,yeah, the, the opportunities
and ideas and, reading materialin particular to stack up.
I bet.
Yeah.
Well, walk me through, there'slike two, two ways I want to go
(14:43):
and I don't know which way itis yet, but like, maybe start
with the rebuilding trust.
Like, 'cause I was thinking thetrust with existing authors, maybe
ones that, you know, and this leadsme to like the model of scribe too.
I want to make that very clear.
I don't know whichway, that goes because.
Yeah, I don't know.
I'll just leave that to you.
Yeah, I, let's, let's startwith, the trust is the
(15:05):
foundation of everything.
So I think starting there, youknow, I, I wrote in the, wrote
the first like annual letter,recently to kind of like the
community and the, the team and,I. I, I think this first year was
all about just rebuilding trust.
And I don't think, you know, it'snot something you can ask for.
It's something you have to earn andit takes time and repetition and,
(15:30):
like to be trustworthy,you have to be reliable.
And to be reliable,people need a sample size.
And you know, there's some elementwhere you can't speed that up.
You just have to be.
Conspicuously doing the thingthat you are expected to do,
that you promised that youwould do over and over again.
And, you know, if you're greedyfor trust, it's much more, you
(15:51):
know, it's, it's, people hesitate.
It's a very, like, that's why Isay you can't really ask for it.
You just have to earn it.
It's like, like they couldsmell it out that you're wanting
it maybe more or you know,
Yeah.
Well, when people likeproclaim themselves to be
trustworthy, it's almostalways a counter signal, right?
Like if they're leading withlike, conspicuous, oh, like,
(16:11):
and, and frankly, the guy thatused to run, scribe did this.
you know, he, he would do likelots of claims about transparency
and honesty and integrityand, You know, I, I, my focus
for the team was like, let'sjust go back to fundamentals.
Let's just focus.
We have to be flawless on thefundamentals of what we're doing.
We don't miss deadlines,we don't ship mistakes.
We just do the work.
(16:32):
And the best advertisementis the work on our desk.
And we're in the business ofrebuilding a reputation like day
by day, week by week, book by book.
We're not gonna shout about it.
We're not gonna ask for it.
We're just going to do the work.
And, you know, I, I'venever been one to like.
I do not like to advertise myself.
I'd rather like just do goodwork and let the work speak
(16:55):
for itself and let others sortof, if they feel comfortable,
you know, recommend tell otherpeople that we did good work.
It's pretty, it's like atestament of what you did with,
with, the Naval book, you know?
Yeah.
I think, you know, you, youcan't, there is no amount
of marketing that overcomes.
A bad product.
and e even if it's true for that,some, you know, 3 months, 6 months,
(17:19):
12 months, like over the verylong period of time, you know, the
reputation in the product is theultimate, you know, determinant
of value and that's just theright place to keep the focus.
I like that.
No, I would say like, you know,'cause I was thinking is there some
kind of trust hack or anything,but it's, it's really doing
what you say, you know, becausemost people don't even do that.
(17:39):
Maybe, do it in a conciseor effective manner that
helps everybody and, andjust, just keep doing it.
Keep showing
up.
Like, don't
any, any trust hack Ithink destroys trust.
You know, it, it's kinda like,you know, I think we've all had
experiences with somebody wholike overdosed on how to win
friends and influence people,and they're like, Hey Joe, it's
(18:00):
really great to see you, Joe.
How's your wife, Joe, Joe?
Like all of the likehacks that you're like,
we've, we've met one time.
Like, just be a human.
and like let, let therelationship develop normally.
so it's a very, yeah, Ithink it like you just.
(18:20):
You just gotta be the kind of, bethe partner that you would want
That's good.
to be seen as.
Yeah, just walk the, walk thewalk and keep your mouth shut
and, let it take care of itself.
Be patient.
Be patient.
Be patient.
man, patience is probably the, it'sthe toughest, but it's, it's true.
You just gotta let stuff develop as
I, I mean, I, I, I will quote Navalat least five times in this episode.
(18:44):
'cause it's anoccupational hazard for me.
But, you know, impatiencewith action, patience with
results, I think that likedefines the trust thing.
Like you must be obsessive andimpatient about doing good work.
And you have to be patientwith allowing that reputation
to, you know, catch up tothe work that you're doing.
'cause it's always gonna bea la a lagging indicator.
(19:05):
Yes.
Yeah.
And that's layer, layer,everything with naval quotes.
'cause I know, I mean, there's oldbook obviously, but people love him.
So, and if you're not followingNaval for whatever reason, and
Eric like, go find him on Twitter.
I'm sure it's probably thebest place or X whatever.
So, but let's go to the, the,the model of scribe media.
(19:25):
Like, did things change from before?
I guess break it down in general.
'cause I know a lot offolks listening, watching.
Maybe have a book orthinking about a book.
I mean, let's be honest.
We'll, we'll address the wholetech thing and how there's
tools like AI now that couldspeed up their writing.
So people thinking, Hey, Icould just do this myself.
Like, why would I go to Scribeand, you know, work with you guys?
(19:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, the, I'll give you the, likethe context f first is that the
whole history of publishing isbasically, 150 year old business
model that the presumption is thatmost books are sold in bookstores,
that they're physical books.
the presumption is thatthey're marketed through
centralized media like TVand newspapers and magazines.
(20:09):
The presumption is also thatyou need like a big capital
investment upfront to like do abig print run of books and get
them all distributed in order to.
Sell books.
And when all those things were truea hundred years ago, even 50 years
ago, it made a ton of sense to havea traditional publishing model.
And where, you know, they giveauthors advances, they take control
of the copyright, and they basicallymanage the book in the inventory
(20:31):
of the book for a long period oftime, and they just pay the author
some royalties for having writtenthe thing in the first place.
And what is obvious to everybodyliving on the internet now
is like all three of thosehave actually flipped 180.
Like most books, this is notobvious, but most books, physical
books that you use now areprint on demand, like almost
(20:52):
everything you buy on Amazon.
Like, so there is no needfor a big upfront investment.
There's no physical inventory.
It's basically like selling adigital product and just like
Amazon takes care of printingand distribution for you.
The other is that most booksare sold on Amazon or on other
websites, and so you don'tactually need a huge, you know,
proprietary distribution network.
they still exist and people stillbuy from bookstores, but like the
(21:14):
majority of them are sold eitherdigitally or through Amazon, even
when there are physical versions.
And third, like.
You don't need, you know,going on the late show or
the morning show doesn'tmove a ton of copies anymore.
It's like going on podcasts,newsletters, and being
recommended on social media.
and so through with all those assort of givens, the model that
makes the most sense is actuallylike authors being in full control.
(21:37):
Authors now have their own audience.
They can sell directly throughtheir website or, you know, link
people directly from their socialmedia, their newsletter, whatever.
the authors have done all the workto de-risk the book, essentially.
the, the authors in many cases,like make more money from other
sources, you know, whether it'scoaching, speaking, consulting,
(21:58):
you know, a, a fund, likewhatever the business model is.
There's usually, especially forlike non-fiction business authors
that we normally work with, lotsof ways for them to win, other than
selling a ton of books and makingmoney from the royalties themselves.
so there's a few authors that we'veworked with that are like that.
So, David Goggins is, is the most.
Famous, and the highestselling, I mean, one of the
(22:19):
bestselling memoirs of all time.
And he, he basically couldn't getan offer that he was happy with
from a traditional publisher.
He's like, you guys are underundervaluing me, and, you know, if
you're not gonna pay me what I'mworth, I'll, I'll go do it myself.
And so he, he worked with Scribeand published, Can't Hurt Me
and Never Finished both with us.
Which means, yeah,both incredible books.
(22:41):
and he just went to war atlike, only David Goggins
can like selling that book.
Right.
So for years and years he,he just like would speak and
market and go on social andtalk about that book and sell
that book and go do interviews.
And he sold five, I mean thela this is an old number, but
it was in 5 million plus, youmean by closer to 10 by now.
(23:02):
and because he published withScribe, you know, he paid us.
A few tens of thousands of dollarsto do all of the publishing work,
but he kept all of the rest ofthat upside on millions of copies.
So he's gotta be one of the highestearning authors of all time.
He's out earning many authorswho are actually traditionally
published, but even sold morebooks just because of how he went
about it and the risk that he tookinitially to get his full upside.
(23:25):
Wow.
Okay.
That's cool.
And thanks for breaking downall the different elements
of like ROI of a publish,you know, a published author,
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, so I should say like, scribe'smodel is like the opposite
of traditional publishing inthat we don't offer advances.
We actually just charge a clear,fixed flat rate for the work that
a traditional publisher will do.
So you bring a manuscript to us.
(23:47):
we'll copy edit it.
We'll proofread it,we'll do cover design.
We'll do page layout.
We'll do illustrations.
We'll design all the finalfiles the way you want.
We'll help you get uploadedfor distribution and launched,
and then you make all thefinal creative decisions.
You keep all your rights andyou keep all your royalties.
It's, which is for one, forpeople like me and Goggins who
are gonna go sell a lot of books.
(24:08):
That's a huge ROI on theroyalties 'cause we're earning
two to four times as much as atraditionally published author
would on a per book basis.
But the more important thing isactually that there are thousands,
millions of authors that would, atraditional publisher would never
even consider because they'll onlysell a thousand books or 10,000
books and they're trying to findpeople that'll sell a hundred
(24:28):
thousand books or at minimum 50,000.
Otherwise, it just doesn'tmake sense for them to take
the risk and do the work.
But I talk to authors everysingle day who wanna write a
book for their own reasons,just to impact the social issue.
Or they want to take the they, theywant to get their message out there.
They want to claim like theywanna increase their credibility.
They want to tell their story, theywant to give back to their industry.
(24:52):
They want to, Really connectdeeply with their clients
or their potential clients.
And they may, you know,there's people that'll
only sell a thousand books.
They, they may giveaway a thousand books,
Exactly
but they'll get $10 million inbusiness to their core business
or raise a hundreds of millions ofdollars as a result of having that
(25:12):
book out there and getting it intothe right hands and building trust
on a very deep level through themeans of this like very important
timeless medium that is justreally difficult to fake, like.
It really, you can't,
yeah, if you, you write a greatbook, like you probably know what
you're talking about, you know?
It's still more important.
Like I, I love your thoughts onthis because you know, you have AI
(25:35):
and everybody feels like, you know,information's at my fingertips.
I could be, you know,knowledgeable in seconds on
whatever topic I, I want.
Or I can look up this person's bookand get the summary of everything.
And the answer I wouldsay is yes to that.
But the value of a book, like, Iwould love to hear it even more
from you going down this vein of.
You know, the ROI are thereasons why people would publish.
(25:57):
It's, it's kinda whatyou're stating here.
It's like you can make it your ownon the front end, but there what
a business model should be definedon the back end, I would imagine.
And yeah.
Any thoughts on that or how scribekinda steers people do that process?
Yeah, I mean, we likewe talk to everybody.
We try to get an idea of whatthe context is that they're
publishing this book into.
So there are people who comein and say, I truly just
(26:19):
want to impact this issue.
And if I, you know, like one,author that I remember is, the
issue that they wanted to impact.
They're, they're retired.
They did it very well forthemselves, and they're like, I
am dedicating years of my lifeand a large amount of money
to impacting gay teen suicide,and if I can save one life.
This will be worth it.
(26:40):
And I do not careabout anything else.
I don't care if I sell like copies.
I don't care if I give 'em away.
I don't care like what it costs.
Like if I, as soon as I reachthat threshold, I'm great.
I will keep reaching for two andthree and four and a hundred.
But like, that's my,my measure of success.
And no traditional publisheris gonna care about that.
like that's a big risk to take.
(27:01):
But if that's important to you,and I think that book could
be good for the world who's,who's not gonna support that.
but mo most importantly, likeif you just have a vision like
that, we will help you do it.
But different example, along similarlines is like, Paul Franco wrote a
book called, Successful Successions.
And it's a very, very targeted, andwe, we often coach authors to do
(27:21):
this, like uncomfortably targeted.
So his book is for, Certifiedfinancial planners who own
their own firm, who are retiringwithin the next five years
Okay.
and they don't know, and they'relike not sure how to transition.
They're not sure what agood transition looks like.
They're not sure whattheir options are.
And Paul's business is to buythose trans, the firms from people
(27:43):
transitioning out who are likeretiring and just ready to be
doing a different chapter and.
So they search for this problem.
They see his book.
Amazon is a very underratedas a search engine.
so they search for it, theyfind it, they buy it, they read
it, and then they pick up thephone and call Paul and try to
see if he'll buy their firm.
'cause they like how hethinks and they trust him.
And they just had this experienceof like understanding his
(28:06):
philosophy and his expertise.
And you know, as far asmarketing goes, like you just
made, you know, four bucks.
To spend 10 hours with this clientin this very high leverage way
that now they pick up the phoneand call you and ask you to buy it.
It's not, there's no other,
Hmm.
show me another marketing channelthat like makes you money,
(28:28):
builds trust at a deep level andcreates like high intent inbound
Absolutely.
And I see it.
yeah, I'm partnered with, one of mypartners is Mike ings here in San
Diego, and we, yeah, I'm, I'm oneof the, the fractional, AI officers.
We consult ton of businesses, butyou know, this program we do on
the back end, it's high level,you know, almost $10,000 thing,
(28:48):
but it's all driven by the bookon the front end, and we see
where all the leads are coming.
It's all from the book.
And everyone I talked to.
Yep.
Read the book and like noteven all the way through
and invested or needed.
I knew I needed you guys.
I'm like, there it is.
it's incredible.
It's so difficult to createthat level of trust, and there's
(29:09):
so few mediums that can do it,and if you're out there like
dropping a bunch of paid ads.
It's that, you know, back goesback to that level of trust, like
when you were asking to be trustedinstead of just doing something
and letting yourself be evaluated,as high, trustworthy or not.
it is just a very different, it'sa very different kind of climb.
yeah,
(29:30):
yeah, it's, it's interesting.
I'm glad to hear you havinga similar experience.
Absolutely man.
And there's, and yeah, I'm notgonna say, you know, paid ads
are evil or anything, but Ithink the big thing is, like you
said, like be in a place wherepeople are looking for you.
Amazon, you know,don't gloss this over.
I know you didn't, but likefor anybody who might've missed
it, Amazon is a search engine.
I don't know where theyrank with everything, but
(29:51):
it ain't going anywhere.
And they're.
Apps, you know, integrated nowwith even, you have all the AI
stuff, you know, like they'llpoint there as a source too.
Like there's so being there, youneed a book or some kind of product,
but yeah, why not give 'em the book?
Yeah, it's, it's, it is anincredible thing and, and the fact
(30:11):
that you need to have written abook to get a search engine results
page on Amazon is a very high bar.
There's, there's authors withus who are selling software
like B2B SaaS software, likebig contracts through a book.
and because they're some of the onlyones with a book out there about
it, and we work with it quite a few.
Organizations actually like publisha book as their organization or
(30:32):
have a systematic thing where likeone of their executives publishes
a book every year that helps sortof build their mind, share each
in different ways That attracts,sometimes it's to attract employees
or partners or customers orinvestors, like whatever it is.
It's a very, you know, because it'snot a traditional marketing channel,
I actually think it becomes really
(30:52):
Yeah.
I think so, man.
Well, with, and I want to goto go to ai 'cause I, you know,
it's obviously a hot topic.
It's only getting more hotby the minute, it seems
like when everything'sgetting cheaper, faster, you
know, tools for everybody.
of course you could write a bookvery quickly with ai, but I. I
wouldn't say it's all about speed.
You can write aneffective book as well.
(31:14):
Like I'll, I'll say an example.
I'm an advisor of a company,called delphi.ai, and one of the
use cases, lesser known, is youcan write a really solid book or
at least start the process becauseit's all based off your knowledge.
Like this digital mind,
we trump it.
So you can like literally pull inquotes and all that stuff from like
this podcast, I can make a book.
(31:35):
And that's actually the plan.
It's like, why not?
It's almost like a TimFerris's tribe of mentors
kinda style, you know?
But like how would you, I guessmy question would be like,
how do you guys have peopleuse AI or some tools to kind
of get that manuscript, theinitial draft out of them?
'cause I know that's thebiggest hurdle for most people.
(31:55):
Yeah, I mean the, the advancein transcription tools has been
huge over the past few years,which helps a lot because a
big part of our method, isactually interviewing people
and writing the book for them.
Like there's a lot of peoplehave, you know, writer's
block is a real thing.
Talkers block is not a thing.
true.
Yeah.
so if you're sitting, if like partof our, you know, our, our scribes
(32:19):
that we, that our people sort ofcreate a partner in writing their
book are not just great writersand not just thoughtful about
structuring the book, but reallygreat, great engaging interviewers.
And so they'll really work withyou to position this and outline
it and understand what you wannaaccomplish, and then they'll.
it'll feel like afriendly conversation.
They just pull the information, thestories, the important principles,
the the key quotes out of you.
(32:40):
And that's the processfor running into the book.
our, we are always likeexperimenting with ai.
It is still, I, I think it'll.
The end result will be to makethe great people more prolific.
and there are things that it speedsup, but not, it's still not great
for like long form pros generation.
(33:02):
It just doesn't quite have the,like, the touch yet, that you want.
And so it, there are advantagesto it, but it's just, it's
sort of a different trade offof like you spend more time
editing because you can't.
The first draft is alittle further off.
and the, especially when you'retrying to build a very long,
very thoughtful like threadof continuous ideas, it's much
(33:25):
easier for it to lose the threat.
And it's much harder to findwhen the threat is lost.
So you just have to, like, ifyou did AI generation, you have
to spend a little more time inediting and be a little more
concerned about the structure andthe linearity of the thoughts.
But I think to your point, likedepending on the kind of book that
you wanna write, if what you wannawrite is a very disjointed tribe
of mentors thing where you'rejust like, here's an episode,
(33:46):
condense it down, plug it in.
I think those will be verycommoditized relatively quickly.
I. Not that thatmakes it a bad format.
It could still be a great format,but like AI will unlock that one
sooner than a novel, for example.
but we, I've seen really good, like,it's just a great sounding board.
I mean, it's a tireless,tireless sounding board and,
(34:09):
proofreader and editor and itcould just be a really good way.
actually I did a great, One of myvery smartest friends about AI and
usage in general is, Sean Devine.
And, I had him on, I hadhim on my podcast, smart
Friends, and he was like, thiswas a year and a half ago.
And he's like, it's comp AI hascompletely changed how I hire.
(34:29):
I now hire for, two traits, whichis like curiosity and endurance.
Hmm.
Yep.
Like the, the, the, I could be, Icould be, misquoting that, but like
endurance or something very like it.
He's like, this is themost important thing.
Like you now have not just a bicyclefor the mind, but like a nuclear
(34:51):
reactor for the mind, but it onlyreally operates as long as you do.
Like, you have to keep the,you have to keep hitting
the ball back because it,it will iterate instantly.
And so if you're not relike feeding it something.
If you're not reacting toit, if you're not, continuing
to push and refine it,then like it stops working.
And so, you know, can you put in a12 hour day with like a relentless
(35:15):
volley partner who's just likehitting the ball back instantly?
It's like playingspeed playing, right?
Yeah.
It's like playing chessagainst the computer.
Like it moves instantlyand you're like.
Fuck.
I need to think.
Yeah.
so, you know, that, but forall work is like a really
interesting psychological shiftand knowing that, you know,
this is another one that Seanmentioned that's counterintuitive,
(35:37):
but like options are free.
I. When we're working witha human, we're used to being
like, gimme three good options.
And I'll pick one because saying,gimme a hundred good options, and
I'll pick one would be psychotic.
Mm-hmm.
and so, so like, but withAI you can say, gimme a
hundred, gimme a thousand.
I hate all of those.
Gimme 2000 more like,okay, now rank order them.
Now throw away anything like.
It's very, there's somecounterintuitive things about it
(36:00):
that, you know, a lot of writers Ithink are relearning how to write
and with, with new tools and, youknow, I like, I very much love my
job and I love talking to authorsall day, but I've also like, shit, I
wish I could just, I block off sometime and really like wrap my head
around working with these tools.
Oh, I bet, man.
I mean, it's a, it's a monumentaltask and it's, it's good that,
(36:21):
yeah, I position at least myselfin a way that I can monetize that
and be the source of that truth.
but yeah, man, I mean, it's, it'schanging and the thing I always just
say is like, just get your hands onsomething that you can stick with
and really understand and graspand, and like you said, be curious.
You can keep goingdown the rabbit hole.
yeah.
I mean, I'll, I'lljust plug this here.
I know at timely, you know,deep seek is, is like making
(36:44):
all the, the world news itseems like, but perplexity is
like my go-to research tool.
But when you hook the twotogether, which you can now,
it's like insane amount of realtime searching plus reasoning.
And it's, it's talk aboutlike deep research in seconds
very cool.
Try that out.
Yeah,
(37:04):
All right.
it's, it's pretty sweet.
But, how about like Naval?
I wanna, I wanna bring outsome philosophy, like some
things that have impacted youthrough, especially through
this journey of, you know,becoming the CEO of Scribe Media.
What, 18 months ago?
And like, one of the quotesthat Naval just sticks out to me
is that happiness is a choice.
And I, I genuinely believethat's true and that's
(37:28):
kind of, I don't know.
Some people feel like happinessshouldn't be the thing that
you strive for, but it'slike, why the hell not?
Yeah.
I don't know what else is there?
And, and yeah.
So how does maybe that quoteor something like that from
Naval helped you through?
I'm sure like burning itout throughout the nights,
you know, figuring itjust the stressful times.
(37:48):
Yeah, I think, You know, choice isalmost, he has said it's a choice.
He has also said it's a skill.
And I think like skill is actually amore useful frame because you don't,
when you hear happiness is a choice,it's almost, it almost makes you
feel guilty, you know, or something.
It's like,
Yeah.
just choose to be happy, dumbass.
(38:10):
Like, what's wrong with you?
Don't, you know, there's aswitch you can just flip.
And like, while that.
Like, wow, that's probably true.
You have to do some work tobuild that switch, right?
or remember that it'sthere or you know, have it
in arm's reach, you know?
So I think the skill framing.
(38:31):
Reminds you that it'll take timeto get better at, and that you
should expect to have to workat getting better at every day.
But it also, you know, it willyield to effort and intention.
And if you work on becominghappier, you can become happier.
I also remember, I've been followingthe ball for long enough to know
that like he wasn't always happy andhe didn't always focus on happiness.
He didn't always value happiness.
(38:51):
and so saying that it's a,you know, a, a choice is
not to imply that it's easy.
but that you, but that it is.
Something that you cancontrol with effort over time.
and it's funny, you know, he's,I think he spent a long time
being unhappy while getting richand then got rich and is like,
Hmm, that didn't make me happy.
(39:14):
maybe that's a different quest.
And so like, I thinknot that many people.
That, you know, I knowsome really happy people.
I know some really rich people.
I know very few, like very happyand very rich people, especially,
you know, Naval who went on thequest to become both of those.
It's not like he was born happyand happened to become rich.
It's not like he was born richand happens to be happy, like he
(39:38):
started without either of themand deliberately built both.
And so this book is very much like.
Here are the principles andthe tactics and the mindset
that he used to go from,you know, not that, to that.
And, you know, he,he's got an interest.
Like, his description of this islike, if you wanna know how to lose
weight, you don't go ask somebodywho's been skinny their whole life.
They're not even gonna knowwhat you're talking about.
(39:58):
Like, you, you don't find somebodywho was, you know, got up to
600 pounds and then got backdown to, you know, 1 50, 1 60.
Like that person knowswhat they're talking about.
'cause they've been on bothsides and they've had to
fight the fight to get.
You know, to, to overcome the thinga bigger, they, they beat a bigger
dragon than you're trying to beat.
And like that's theperson who can teach you.
and so I think, you know, whenyou're filtering for people to
(40:21):
read, people to emulate heroes,you know, there's a lot of people,
talk in a game that, they learnfrom somebody else, not firsthand.
And that's just a different, youknow, there's a different level
of knowledge that comes with that.
that's a good frame.
Yeah.
And.
Yeah, that, and I know Naval,you're absolutely right.
Like it, it's cool tosee that progression.
And I know you outlinedthat a ton in, in the book.
(40:43):
Like is there something thatyou, either from the Almanac
or, or just studying naval,that keeps you grounded?
Like is there a tacticthat you go to often?
I, there's a lot onthe happiness side.
There's a lot of little ones thatjust became habits, that, that
I think he, I mean, he's sucha good distiller and he comes
(41:05):
up these sticky little phrases.
And so, some of these seem verysmall, but if you do them every day,
if you do them multiple times a day,
It does, I think, meaningfullychange your, like, base
level of happiness.
And so, two in particular, there'sone that, you know, I drink coffee
every morning and he's got onethat says like, if you can't be
(41:26):
happy with a cup of coffee, youwon't be happy with a yacht.
I
Which is, which is a beautifulencapsulation of everything
that you need to know about,like learning to appreciate
the things that you have and.
Take it.
That reminds me, and I thinkabout it on my first cup of
coffee every single day andjust like take a second with the
steamy mug before your first sip.
(41:47):
And you're just like, this littlething is a fucking miracle that
I can just really appreciate.
And if I can't learn to appreciatethis, there's no point in
striving for anything else.
So like practice appreciation withthis thing in this moment, this
humble thing, and let that be likea moment that is complete of itself.
It's like very mindfulness.
(42:08):
It's like that moment ofzen that that you just
carved out for yourself, you
Yeah.
And, and you can, I think he hadanother one about a toothbrush.
that's like whenever he is brushinghis teeth, like he, he uses
that as a moment to just like,concentrate on the feeling, like
how good the toothbrush feels.
Like don't look at your phone.
Don't think about the tasksthat you're supposed to be
(42:29):
doing, like, or could be doing.
Like, just be very present.
and having those triggersthat are things that will
happen to you all the time.
And another one is, whenyou feel the sun on your
skin, look up and smile
Hmm.
and just like tiny thing.
I mean, you live in SanDiego, so you'll, you'll have
to stop doing that at somepoint and go get some shit.
Go get some stuff done.
Yeah.
(42:50):
don't stare right at it.
Important,
Yeah, Huberman sets tostare at it, but it's gotta
be low on the horizon.
I know we're alldoing that these days.
But yeah, just little, littlethings that stick with you.
so yeah, I, some of thoseare, have worked their
way into my daily life and
that I, I really appreciate.
yeah, thanks for Sha.
Is there one that hasn't worked?
Like, or one that you just like, allright, Naval, that sounded really
(43:12):
good, but it's fucking useless.
one, one that I'm still strugglingto implement, that I think Naval
is probably better at than meis, is just like, He's got a
very, it's almost a Buddhist,approach of the, like, only the
individual ascends or transcends.
And that it is a prettyhard line on like, you're
(43:33):
not responsible for otherpeople's feelings or happiness.
and that's just a reallydifficult thing in practice
day to day, you know,
Yeah.
you've got people you lovearound you all the time and you
care about how they feel andhow their experience is going.
And, and I'm not actuallysure that it's like ideal.
To totally separate, you know, itis not ideal for your relationships.
(43:55):
It might be, you know, if you wantto go become a monk and like take
complete, perfect accountabilityfor your internal state, and you're
just observe, observing like theobjective neurochemicals in your
brain and how much dopamine you get,maybe, yeah, it is optimal to like.
Totally separate from allrelationships, but that's at least
not the way I want to live my life.
(44:16):
And so there's a lot of timeswhen, you know, that is just
a, a messy area of trade-offs,I think, around relationships.
And when you, when you do chooseto take on other people's emotional
states to show empathy and workthrough something together and,
you know, or, or share, you know,share pain, share experiences,
And not jump to conclusionstoo quickly or try to solve
(44:39):
it for someone else, or maybeeven yourself sometimes, you
know, just like let it simmer.
Something usually connects for, for
yeah, yeah, and, you know, buthe's, he's decades into this
journey, so it's possible that I,that's just a naive take from me.
But, it is, I, that is an extreme.
I think he's got a relativelyextreme stance, and it comes
from the philosophies that, youknow, that he's right in some
(45:00):
of the extreme, some of thephilosophers are extreme by nature.
so I, I don't disagree with itso much as like, have chosen a
different path or at least livea different path in the moment.
And, yeah, we're, we're all,we're all on different paths
at different places, so,
Absolutely, man, differentupbringings and all that.
So, you know, gottakeep that in mind.
We're all starting in differentplaces, which is totally fine.
(45:22):
Give yourself a break,everyone, please.
So I, well, that leads me to thisthought of like, you've had a,
you've worn a lot of hats and stilldo, you know, author, curator, I,
I call you an author, obviously.
and, you know, founder, investor,podcaster, you know, and all
these things Now, CEO, like.
(45:42):
I'm thinking of fulfillment, likethat's the frame I have here.
So is there like a, a myth,almost like a toxic myth
that you think that you hadto unlearn in this process?
You know, for as a C orany of these hats, like has
something come up that you'vereframed over that those years?
I want to say I've sort ofgiven up on the concept of done.
(46:09):
Like there is no, there is nofinish line really, like any, any
given finish line is arbitrary and,
I, I will always be working onsomething and just trying to find
good way, high leverage ways tolike, make the future better.
and.
(46:32):
That, that work will neverbe done, and I'll never be
quite satisfied with it.
And that's like I have to learnto, learn to exist in a state of
happiness without anything beinglike done and complete and at rest.
so, you know, there's another,there's a neval that's like,
happiness is peace and motionand peace is happiness at rest.
(46:53):
mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's a
And so learning to becomelike peaceful and in motion.
At the same time, learn to be happyand satisfied without feeling done
'cause, you will never be done.
is is a constant quest.
(47:13):
and I'm not good at it, butI, I feel lucky to have at
least learned that that's.
Something that I needto get better at.
and try to, you know, refocus on andjust, you know, live in that space.
And some of the peoplethat I admire the most are
really, really good at that.
You know, they even under highstress, you know, heavy fire, they
(47:37):
can be peaceful and productive.
And I think that's the mindsetto have to stay in the game for
a really long time, which is whatyou need to do if you're gonna
have great compounding resultsand great relationships And,
You know, easier said than done,especially when you hold yourself
to high standards and you care alot about, you know, what you're
doing and who you're doing it with.
(47:57):
But, that's, that's a goal.
That's a focus.
I love it, man.
I kind of want to end it rightthere 'cause that's, it's impactful.
Thanks for sharing.
Definition of done.
Yeah.
What is that?
Yeah.
Make, yeah.
So thanks for, thanksfor sharing, man.
And yeah, who, I guess acouple things, like who are
(48:17):
you following closely now?
Obviously Naval, Balaji.
I think you have something withMusk coming up here, right?
Yeah, I'm working on ElonMusk, very like, tough to pit
down, but I'm very focused.
I'm, I'm focused on the like.
First few decades of buildingthat he did, and like what
makes his mindset and hisapproach really unique in the,
(48:40):
the scale of problems that hetackles and how the intensity
with which he tackles them.
I think there's something for allentrepreneurs to learn in that.
And so that's really the bookthat's coming together, this year.
Yeah, I'm, I'm excited about it.
I hope that it'll,I hope it's helpful.
I hope it helps, you know,birth another, a generation
of a thousand Musks and, youknow, usher in a golden age in
(49:02):
the next industrial revolution.
That's the, that's myhumble hope for this book.
Nice.
I love it.
Yeah.
yeah,
yeah.
I, I follow, I, I think, Casey,er is, is a little more technical
than like naval or Musk.
but I think he's anincredible talent, un
underrated, under followed,
(49:23):
Very, very much in the techworld, but like brilliant.
brilliant guy.
I don't follow 'em, sothat's great though.
Add 'em to the list.
Yeah.
Hi.
Highly recommended.
Cool.
Awesome, man.
Well, Eric, dude, this hasbeen a pleasure and thanks
for being so open, honest.
I know you are.
And first time we chatted, butlike yeah, we, we went there.
So
(49:43):
Cool.
Of course.
Tha thank you for having me.
This is, very fun.
Yeah.
In scribe media.com,is that the best place?
Or where else should they findScribe and then also find you
Yeah, if you, if you're thinkingabout a book, if you think a book
can help build your business,if you've got a, a strain
notes app full of book ideas,
or Otter
(50:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Perfect.
Yeah.
Yeah.
so come, come just chat with us.
and we're happy to like, take youthrough that, scribe media.com.
Just get a, a consult withsomebody on the team and, yeah,
all my personal stuff is atejorgenson.com and I'm on Twitter
X all the time, at Eric Jorgenson.
So happy to, to DM or, you know,get you on the newsletter and
(50:25):
Yeah.
whatever el whatever elseyou're interested in.
Go check it out, thepodcast and everything.
We will link everything, show notes,description, make it easy for you.
So Eric, thank you my man.
Mm-hmm.
Appreciate you.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com