September 18, 2025 • 35 mins
In this insightful episode of Hustle & Flowchart, host Joe Fier sits down with Oji Udezue and Ezinne Udezue, powerhouse builders, investors, and tech veterans with experience at industry giants like Twitter, Typeform, and T-Mobile. The duo recently co-authored the book Building Rocket Ships and brings a wealth of perspective on entrepreneurship, crafting lasting tech products, and leveraging AI in today’s fast-moving landscape. The conversation dives deep into what it truly takes to identify perennial human needs, avoid chasing short-lived trends, and build a startup system designed for sustainable growth in the middle of the AI gold rush.
Topics Discussed
- Why the next trillion-dollar company will solve age-old human needs, not just chase trends
- Key perspectives from Oji and Ezinne’s careers across major tech and construction companies
- The mindset and approach needed to be a “patient builder” in the current AI-driven market
- Identifying “sharp problems” and perennial needs as product opportunities that transcend technology shifts
- The evolving role of prototyping and MVPs—how modern tools like AI and vibe coding change the game
- Tips on getting authentic customer feedback and finding the right early adopters for your product
- Building a “product system”: how strategy, people, and execution intersect to create repeatable innovation
- Real-world lessons from startup investing and advising—what founders consistently get wrong and right
- How to be intentional with company systems to avoid being a one-hit wonder
Resources Mentioned
- Building Rocket Ships by Oji & Ezinne Udezue: Productmind Co
- Vercel – Platform for frontend developers to build and deploy websites
- Lovable - Create apps and websites by chatting with AI
- Cursor – Modern app prototyping and development tools
- Techstars – Startup accelerator referenced for founder insights
Connect with Us
- Website: Hustle & Flowchart Podcast
- AI Build Team: aibuildteam.ai
- Instagram: @hustleandflowchart
- YouTube Channel: Subscribe Here
- Contact: For bespoke AI clone inquiries, email sales@aibuildteam.ai or schedule a call via their site.
Loved this conversation about building resilient, AI-powered businesses? Make sure you hit “Subscribe” on your favorite podcast player so you never miss an episode! If today’s topics inspired you or sparked new questions, leave us a review or share the episode with a fellow entrepreneur who’s ready to build the next rocket ship. Let’s keep growing—together!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
What if the next trillion dollarcompany isn't chasing trends, but
(00:04):
actually solving age old humanneeds just reimagined with ai?
So today we're joined by OJand two powerhouse builders and
investors and tech veterans.
They came from companies like Twitter,Typeform, Calendly, T-Mobile, and
they just teamed up to release theirbook called Building Rocket Ships.
(00:25):
And in this conversation we'regonna unpack a lot from that book
and also just in general the trendsright now and what it really takes
to build a product that's going tolast in this whole AI gold rush time.
Let's dive into it.
Oji, Ezinnee to have that.
You're, you're both here andthis is a, it's honestly just
(00:47):
gonna make it even better.
So you're a power duo, butthere you're more than that too.
I mean, you guys have individually,I mean, I can't even list
all the background, so like.
Everyone do your independentresearch, but let's talk about it.
You, you both come from incrediblebackgrounds with large companies.
Companies like Twitter type form,uh, T-Mobile, and I'm kind of
(01:10):
blending both of your sides here.
Um, Procore Construction, I mean there's,'cause I know there's construction folks
listening, there's tech people listening.
Um, the fact is you guys havegreat perspective of businesses
who have done amazing things,have exited, scaled people.
And like leading on the tech.
And I think that's kind of fast,that's really fascinating in this
(01:30):
world of AI and all the, the toolsthat everybody's experiencing in
this, this next wave that's happening.
So I guess I'll start with thankingyou and how are you guys doing?
How are you, how are you feelingwith, uh, where we're at in the world?
So everything's so fast, but like,how are you feeling about it?
Are you, are you like jazzed up for it?
Are are opportunities?
mean, I'm, I'm excited.
(01:51):
I think that there is somuch change happening.
Breck neck, neck speed.
Um, it is dizzying, but, uh,I love rollercoasters anyway,
so this just works for me.
Um, I, I, I feel lucky that I've beenin the tech space for quite a while, so
I'm able to look behind and see, thinkabout what happened in the past and
(02:11):
try and get some learnings from that.
So.
Um, really excited about it actually.
up?
yeah.
No, no, I, I feel the same way.
This is, uh, it feelslike a gold rush time
Mm-hmm.
and it is, but, and I thinkthere are negative and positive
versions of that gold rush, butI think the thing that you are.
(02:32):
Listeners should understand is thatthis is a time of great opportunity.
Like when Bill Gates, uh,discovered computing in the 75 to
80, 83 when I started, Microsoftwas a time of great opportunity.
Silicon chips had just come out and theworld was gonna change, and he saw it.
A lot of people did not.
Okay.
And, and when the internet, whichBill Gate did not Shepherd, came out.
(02:56):
I like to say the internet dropped.
When the internet dropped.
There's a time of great opportunityand we've made trillions, you know,
like catch a trillion bucks from that.
Right?
And the earlier thing, andso this is the same time.
And so patient builders,ingenious builders.
Um, are going to change the world.
(03:18):
I wanna talk about money 'cause they willmake money and money, just to be clear.
But we're very excited aboutthat big level of thinking,
but also just the details.
Like what is the life of a startup guy?
What is the life of a startup market?
Or what is the life of an investor?
All those things are gonna change.
And you know, these are some ofthe things that we've been thinking
about and we've been living.
Yeah, you've definitely lived itthrough your own individual journeys.
(03:40):
course, I'm sure you share a lotof, you know, the inside scoop and,
and obviously you wrote a book aboutit as well, so, we'll, we'll talk
about that and, but I mean, yousaid it's, it's great opportunity.
I mean, I just came back, I, I toldyou I came back from Cisco Live
where that's all their keynotes.
Were, we're interviewingsome of the top execs.
And I'm like, everybody isjust has the same mindset.
(04:02):
Like they're an AI forward company.
And but you said patient buildersbecause, uh, and I'm curious,
what do you mean by by that?
Og.
there's a lot of our industry that is.
Trend focused, right?
Someone builds a Calendly.
You don't, you want to know how manypeople who are building a Calendly beater
(04:23):
that's come to me to consult with them.
You know what I mean?
So people chase trends.
Originality isn't, uh, like a premiumin industry, actually even investing.
You know, like you see something thatworks and you want to, you know, invest
in next Facebook and before you knowit, you know, people start chasing,
uh, failed social media startups.
My point is that people who tap into,uh, perennial needs and workflows,
(04:50):
like there's some, there's anundercurrent of value that is the same
from generation to generation, evenwhen the technology level changes.
like, for example, on the consumer side,we know that dating is always gonna make
money if you're ingenious at it, right?
Everything from, uh, plentyof fish to, uh, Tinder, right?
We know that, uh, gamble, I don'twanna say this, but there are all
kinds of things, sports and so onthat is that, that are always good.
(05:13):
But the technology changes and the.
Which it, it comes out changes,uh, but also in B2B, people are
always gonna wanna sell stuff.
People are always going to marketing.
People are always gonna want to crunchthe numbers and do data analysis.
But the things that we built 10 yearsago, 15 are not gonna cut it anymore.
And they're gonna be different becausewe just got a brand new tool that's
gonna make all the things easier.
(05:34):
So patient builders are people who tryto find sharp problems that are deep.
We've had for a very long time.
Right.
You know, Microsoft Office is writing.
50,000 years, uh, math andaccounting, 50,000 years, problem.
You know what I mean?
Like email.
Email is, communication is smoke signals.
(05:55):
And so like, patient builders are peoplewho plumb deep needs and then find ways
to express them in new ways that match thenext level of technology and convenience.
That's what I mean.
That's a great way to put it.
That it's, yeah, they're, they're deepneeds expressed in, in, in different ways.
It's, it's sharp problems.
Like you said, ones that will alwaysbe around, but they're, they're
(06:15):
almost like shape shifting in
The
yes, technology shifts around the need.
Sure.
What?
What do you think doesn'tshift in all of this?
let, let's put it this way, I,there's something, a thesis we
have is a great replacement.
Like everything you're using todaywill not be the same in 10 years.
Like they have been thesame for 10 years roughly.
(06:36):
They will not be the same.
They will all be replaced.
The only question is, are the peoplewho make them today going to be
the ones who make the new thing,or is it gonna be a new startup?
And the thing that doesn't change is like.
Sorry, I don't want to get existential.
ISN was,
It's okay.
I that
kind of stuff
No.
She was accuse me of not beingpractical, but the thing, you
(06:57):
It's
know, we we're all mammals,you know what I mean?
Like we need to socialize.
We, there's some things that are,you know, we thought Twitter would
change the world, but it turned outthat people just found their tribe
on Twitter and just stuck with it.
And instead of havingconversations instead of in a
pub, they just have on Twitter.
So that's what I mean, likesome things have changed because
they're rooted in human nature.
(07:18):
So some things, no, I'll just add to that.
Um, some of the things that don't change,like Oji said, the need is the need.
It's a perennial need, it'san underlying need, whether
it's B2C or individual or B2B.
The second I would sayis return on investment.
Right?
The people who are paying attentionto their, how their investment
is being used and shaped.
(07:39):
Are the ones who will win.
And I say this because, um, we find peoplewho build like, uh, you know, everything
is fast, everything is happening,uh, quickly, and some people rush.
And in that rushing, they're notthinking about the math in the end.
And there're always going to beanalogies to currency, right?
Back in the day, in thesocial media world, it was.
(08:01):
Followers, right?
Followership, then influencersand the, you know, that
became currency in some way.
Building a social networkbecame more important.
Eyeballs became more important.
So there is always an an an, an analogy.
To currency in some way.
So I think that it just being ableto pay attention to perennial need,
really paying attention to a return oncapital, that always will matter, period.
(08:25):
Because you have to pay for the future.
And then what is youranalogy for currency?
What is your analogy for profitability?
What is your analogy for growth?
Because there always is onein, in, in this day and time.
So I haven't figured out what it isin an AI world, but with every new
technology there often is something.
So just paying attention towhat that analogy could be.
technology companies are, webuild stuff that make people
(08:50):
either useful or happy, right?
So that doesn't change likefounders and product managers and
product marketers and investors.
It's really about build something.
And I love the way like.
Some of these really, like earlystage people talk about it.
You build something that peoplelove that is really useful, that
solves a sharp problem for them.
(09:10):
That's one dimension.
And the second one is you builda a, um, business model that
makes you money from that, right?
Um, software works really well becausethe marginal cost of production is zero.
And so if you hit a certain numberof customers, you make money.
And a lot of it.
(09:30):
So you make them happy, you solvea real thing, and then you design a
business model that's really efficientand I think those, those won't change.
Awesome answers by the way.
how started with existential, whichI love, way into this profound
shift practical practicality.
Let's make it a little bit morepractical 'cause you're all about like.
Well, how does someone like a startup,I mean, and let's be honest, like even
(09:53):
if someone hasn't run a startup beforeand they're listening, watching, they
have some existing business, theyprobably see maybe a sharp problem that
they wanna solve in their vertical.
So maybe they do the vibe, coding, codingthing, or maybe they just hire some, yeah.
Or, or maybe they're justtrying to figure out.
What the, um, what the product market fitis, you know, just like, but how to test
(10:15):
it at it at the smallest possible level.
Like how do you get someone, guess howdo you navigate this and how would you
advise someone in that, in that phase?
the way this works is our industry hasactually pissed away a lot of money.
Based on the passions of founders.
Like founders wake up one morningand they obsessed with one thing that
(10:36):
they think should change in the world.
The thing that we wish, because we spentso much, many hours talking to them, and
actually I've been a founder, so, andI've made this mistake, so I've lived it.
The thing you should check to see is,is this a sharp problem to anybody else?
Is it the sharper around to 10 people,to 20 people, to a million people?
'cause that's what really matters.
It's not about.
(10:57):
An expression of your need and youringenuity that you're bringing to market.
That's, that's sort of the old way.
It's really customer satisfaction.
We should be thinking like, uh, youknow, like Procter and Gamble, they
don't make a Swiffer until theyknow that a million people are gonna
buy a Swiffer, if that makes sense.
So it's like, think about the problems ofother people, not so much your problem.
(11:19):
And then think aboutwhere you have insight.
Uh, so that you can injectpassion and stick to iveness when
you're building that startup.
When, uh, Jeff Bezos built Amazon,he built a shopping mart, right?
He built a shopping mar.
I don't even know if hewas passionate about it.
I think he was passionate, not justabout building shopping mart, but
building something that was moreaccessible to people than just getting
(11:40):
outta there can driving somewhereelse, versus the problem itself is
like, look, this has to transform.
I'm the transform guy of this market.
And so I think you start out by really.
Figuring out, is this a problem thatpeop a lot of people feel deeply.
And then the second thing isyou ask yourself, what would a
transformation of that look like?
(12:02):
And then you build a simple, lovable,but complete version of that and
put it in front of customers.
Sometimes that will take you three months.
If it's a very common problem, it mighttake you two years because the level
of, you know, when they say MVP, minimumviable, minimum for a. A, a big need
is very high because all, there's alot of products in the market, and so
(12:23):
you some, like Figma famously built fortwo years because the, the, the viable
was super high 'cause of Adobe, right?
And so viable took a long time.
So you have to figure out what that is.
Um, the simplest, most, most cogent.
Attention grabbing versionof something you can put out.
(12:44):
And it is a variable time.
We want to keep it as short aspossible, but it's not always possible
to make it in two weeks or whatever.
Yeah.
And that's where I think thesevibe coders and all that, or you
know, like, because everybody hasaccess to cursor now, not to Yeah.
like,
yeah.
I actually think this is an amazing time,um, for that founder you're referring
to who is trying to figure out, okay,I, I found a, a, a, a sharp problem.
(13:07):
How do I move on?
Because I remember thedays I ran, um, I ran.
Innovation or whatever itis, startup inside a company.
Right?
And the biggest thing was the timeit took to create a prototype, right?
So right now, I think the biggestchallenge most founders will find after
they've done everything like you says,is find the sharp problem, really think
(13:27):
through is how do you get access topeople so that you can actually test.
That is actually the bigger problemnow because prototyping should be easy.
Wizard or vase is all the thingsyou can literally use, cursor,
lovable, all those things tobuild something that is workable.
So it's actually a really,really interesting time.
So it's one of those getoff your but and just do it.
But the hardest part I remember was, youknow, having to log into Craigslist and
(13:52):
incentivize people to show up and useand use my product so that, you know, to
test whether it works or it doesn't work.
But that gaining access so thatpeople could actually play around
with that product and give youfeedback is, is actually the more
challenging piece now than ever before.
Before it was actually writingthe code, building the software.
No Vico coding is making that much easier.
(14:12):
So it's how do you get people andget real feedback because they can
actually use your, your work now.
So that's an interesting challenge.
So for founders listening, you know, it's,it really is more about access to humans
and humans who will tell you the truth.
that's a good point.
Yeah.
So are you saying like trusted people,you know, people maybe that you hire,
(14:33):
bring on your team as, and also peopleto give you feedback and tell you
No.
No.
So, so the thing is, is, is, is,is target, like one of the things
that people do is like they'll buildsomething and they'll put it out in the
world and they'll get mixed feedback.
Well, you should always filter yourmixed feedback by your target customers.
So one of the things you should do is.
Any problem, sharp or not, hasa profile, a very narrow profile
(14:57):
initially that respond to it.
Not everybody, right?
So sharp problems.
Also attach to narrow target customers.
So find a hundred of them whowill experience what you you're
doing for free or for Peter.
Doesn't matter what it is, it depends onwhat you're testing, what target them.
And I think what isn't is sayingis that the bill part is, um.
(15:20):
The built part is super fast.
Now, like we, we met a team in Ukrainewho after you get off the phone and
tell 'em about your problem, they'llcrank out the prototype in four hours.
that's great.
That's okay.
In four hours.
the we're in.
Yeah.
yeah, but if you then get theprototype, what do you do with it?
Well expose it to customersas soon as possible.
Low stakes, beta, whatever you wannacall it, and start to learn, right?
(15:43):
Is that learning process thatmakes you a viable startup.
Uh, it's incredible and I think thatshould be the shift that people are
hearing right now is like, okay, thecreation piece is, and you could of
course get someone else to do that in.
Like, how would you, would you suggestmost people, 'cause it's very simple to
get distracted and start going down the,the lovable train or, you know, cursor,
but it, like, as a, as a founder and,and obviously the, you guys are investing
(16:07):
in these as well with your fund, right?
So like how do you advisesomeone to maybe, uh, work
with people to help them out?
'cause I know that's a big, that'sa challenge right now to find folks
that can think in this way and alsoyou can trust, I know it's kind of
loaded, but where do you start there?
one of the underestimated parts ofbuilding is like just building, like
(16:32):
before it was, most founders don't havecoding skills, and so you have to find
a team, or at least one person, CTO,whatever you call it, a co-founder.
Now you can just startbuilding it yourself.
Now, honestly, I'll, I'll tellyou my synthesis, based on looking
at all these tools is that.
It's actually difficult to buildsomething customer ready with
lovable and so on and so forth.
(16:52):
It's harder than people think becausewhat what happens is you have to
be smart enough to think throughall the cus the human parts of
this, not just throw up some code.
Like, does it feel good?
Does this journey hang together?
And very, people aren't intrigued.
Some people go to college for this stuff.
Right?
Does it hang together?
Um, because you can throw up somethingsimple, but something that people will
(17:13):
use for a day, two days and be happy.
That's not trivial.
Uh, but that's getting easier regard.
I know it's how hard it is.
It used to be super hard.
You used to have two developersyou work with for two months,
three months, six months.
Now you can put together a prototypeyourself, which is actually a very
good PRD, the prototype itself towork with professional developers
who you get online immediately.
(17:35):
And then the thing that happens isyou throw it to the first customer.
They love it, but it's basic.
And they're like, changethis and change that.
If you're not smart enough to vibe,code the changes and you're stuck.
Does that make sense?
So start, start by yourself.
But don't think that you cango the distance by yourself
unless you're a professional.
There are lots of developers whobuild like single one man SaaS because
(17:58):
they can't, they, they're trained.
Trained.
But if you're not, start by yourself.
But very quickly, hire people who cancontinue, who are pro or semi-pro,
because the part of building asoftware, like we said, is listening to
customer feedback and adjusting to it.
And a lot of people just like.
Can't do that just withvibe coding, right?
(18:18):
Your customer says, do thisfeature and then you're stuck.
Back in the day, you'd write aproduct requirement document.
It's a s like a physical documentback then you'd have V one, then
you'd have V two, then V three.
By the time the product was launching,you were probably at VA hundred and
something and you were changing wordson a page because you learned more.
You, you learn what the requirement was.
(18:38):
You learned what was optional.
You learned what the softwaredeveloper had to do and what
need could be done, right?
So that's the back in the day.
Right now, to Oji's point, it's importantthat founders just vibe, code, build that
prototype, but not get stuck and in lovewith the software on the page, right?
They need to do V two and they can startover again because with V one you, your
(19:02):
goal was not necessarily to have itworking in the user's hand, was to learn.
Then V two, you learn again,throw away the other code, build
it again, V four, learn again.
Right.
And if you think of it that way, bythe time you're building your V 10, you
have more information of what to givethe coding team you're bringing on.
(19:23):
Right.
But if you think of the software as.
are going to get stuck.
But if you use it more as a learning tool,a prototype, your pro product requirement
document that is being re revised eachtime, and I think you have it, this is,
I was just talking to some like, uh,product person I I mentor and this is
literally what I was just saying to her.
is how you need to think about it.
(19:43):
It's there for you to learn with.
At Product Mind, we believe that PRDsare going the way of the Dodo, right?
A PRD is gonna be an map.
You, you, you, becausehere's how it works.
You write a PRD, you sit in a meetingwith a bunch of developers, you try
to get them to see your vision, andthen they write something and they
tell you, is it, is it what you want?
it what you want?
(20:03):
And then you do another PRD and youhave another meeting, blah, blah, blah.
No, you the founder, you write the app,but don't think about this as a final app.
It is an avatar of your final lab.
It embodies your vision.
You hand it off.
The developer doesn'tneed to read a document.
They can see it, they can read the code,and then you can keep revising until you
(20:24):
get an application that customers love.
And they'll know how to make it secure.
They'll know how to make it scalable.
They'll know where the dead ends are,and that is where they come in to
actually finess it and make it beautiful.
But at least you'vegiven them that avatar.
So think of that.
Just run with it and justmake your versions to learn.
Put it in your customer's hands and justhave them learn and it's okay to trash it.
(20:45):
Take your learnings, take that,put it into the new prompt, right?
And start over.
There's nothing there.
You didn't write that,those lines of code.
So don't be precious about it.
Well, we're working on a project nowwhere we are on V 20 of the app building,
Yeah.
And that's all, that's allthrough, uh, no code, you know,
all all this stuff that the
(21:06):
Yeah, we're, we're using, we use amix of things like CEL and so on,
but at, at fowling, uh, we a studio.
So we invest, but wealso build, if that makes
have, yeah, a few people building littlethings that to test and try, so yeah.
I love it.
I mean, would you suggest most peopleget familiar with these kind of
apps just to see what's possible?
Like have you
hundred percent.
(21:27):
Like you should be.
If you're a builder, youshould be living in these apps.
They should be your best friend.
Cool.
And you mentioned lovable cursor.
Do you have a, all these
So Vexcel, lovable cursor.
There also de design tools.
Um, on that side, there are websitecreation tools for the marketing
applications that whatever is speeding up,development by 10 x you should be using.
(21:50):
I love it.
I think your, your analogy to,uh, creating an avatar, it's
just like a customer avatar.
there's psychographics, demographics,all these different qualities that thing.
Um, and it's just a snapshotof that, that person.
But like, that might evenchange with more data and input
hundred percent.
A hundred percent.
(22:10):
Everything is the, the, you know, the,the, the prototype, the vibe coated
thing is a representation of an early,that's how you go from a garden shack
to the, the Empire State Building.
Well, you remember that Noteveryone matters initially.
Only the people you identify whoactually need experiencing this
problem, not the entire world.
Um, those are the people that matterand target them with that thing.
(22:33):
I actually wanna underscore this.
Um, this is something I learned workingwith Techstars and all the founders.
Um, there, um, it's really importantthat people listening know that.
When you do put your product,Oji, you said this earlier,
but I need to underscore.
When you put your product outthere, you will get feedback, right?
If you get 10 people, but really payattention and give weight to who we,
(22:55):
what we call the ideal customer profile.
Like you really need to understand who isthis thing for and give weight to that.
So even if you've heard from 10people, four may be the only ones
that actually truly matter becausethat's who you are targeting first.
You want them to be your early adopters,you're shaping the product around them.
So that's something I noticed that,um, folks that I talk to often haven't
(23:15):
learned and is worth underscoring.
That's a very good underscore.
I think you're gonna save a lotof people a lot of time, I hope.
And money, you know, and, and, andlike you said, it's a gold rush right
now, but it's for the patient builders.
I know it's for the focused as well.
Like I've heard a lotof people say that like.
If you just focus in onwhatever that sharp problem is
(23:36):
that you're trying to solve.
Obviously with feedback, justremember like we're in a noisy world
that moves super fast and we thinkthat social media is distracting.
I mean, just getting into cursorlovable, then you're gonna like, you
never know, and then think of, oh,what's the other new tool I should try?
It's like, hold
Hundred percent.
I
so squirrel.
Yeah, yeah.
when MCPS came out and everyone waslike, oh, you know, everyone is going
(24:00):
and yeah, yeah, every, I would nowignore rest APIs and do MCPS forever.
Mm. No.
Yeah,
not necessarily.
and if you know what that means,y'all go listen, you know, listen
to some YouTube videos or someone.
But either way, well, what, I kindawanna wrap it up on this, but tell,
talk to me about a product system andhow you guys approach that because.
(24:26):
Maybe, maybe you nail it on a, onthe first version or, or single
feature, but how do you keep thatgoing and how do you create a
system out of it that's sustainable?
let, let me, let me offerlike a high level definition.
Oji is really good at like, likegiving good summaries and succinct
soundbites, so I'll let him end with it.
But first off, a, a product system isactually refers to the things that are
(24:50):
happening within your organization, right?
The different systems that actuallyinteroperate that are present, whether
or not you're paying attention to them.
That lead to the products you build.
And when we talk about a productsystem, we're actually talking about
three core things no matter what inany company, even a, a little startup.
There's a way in which your peopleinteract with each other, right?
(25:13):
There's a way in which, so we callthat the system of people, and there's
also a way in which you are findingstrategic direction, how you're making
decisions, how you're prioritizing,and that we call holistically a
strategy or way finding, right?
What decisions matter there,but what's most important.
That's what we call strategy.
(25:33):
There's a system of that.
Then there's also a system of execution.
Who does what?
How do they do it?
How does it ladder up into
What tools, what
What tools are we using?
Where do we reference our code?
How do, is it PRDs versus uh, prototypes?
How do they work together?
And that's what we calla system execution.
That is what a product system is reallyabout, whether or not you have sat
(25:58):
down and thought about it that way.
They exist.
So when we, when we name a productsoperating system, we are actually asking
you to be intentional about how thosethree things interact with each other
how they, how, how those three thingsinteract with each other and how they
lead to repeatability and scale over time.
(26:19):
So that's really what it really is about.
Oji, you wanna layer in and bring it
No, think I you, think you nailed it.
There are three, four.
Think let's talk about, then,let's use physics as a metaphor.
There are three major forcesacting on a startup or any
technological company, right?
People, um, how you finddirection and how you execute.
(26:43):
Whether or not you realize that thoseforces are acting on your startup,
they're acting on your company.
Even if Google right, there's a reasonpeople fret about the direction of
Google, they didn't miss something.
That it's the same thing.
And what we try to teach peopleis to make those things not, uh,
(27:05):
to make them more intentional.
And we teach people how to interactfor, well, those three things.
They the, like how they can doballet together to make sure that
you have an innovation enginethat is humming all the time.
If you have one or two of thosethings or none of those things,
you'll eventually stutter.
Right.
(27:25):
I at Microsoft when we werestuttering during Obama years,
and I saw this happen, um.
App builder, startup, andit's the same principle.
And in the book we talk a lot abouthow to optimize the interaction
between those three, right?
So that you are not a one hit wonder.
You can innovate all the time.
'cause when you do it, your organizationactually produces new ideas constantly.
(27:49):
because
Yeah.
We see,
it's intentional.
we, we, if you think about people, right?
You see a founder and employee tensionbecause there isn't this clarity on
let's move to the decision makingpiece, like what is most important.
So you, so sometimes you'll see thattension, but that tension happens
not necessarily because they'reindividuals and butting heads.
(28:11):
It's because there probablyhasn't been an intentional
conversation of their way finding.
What is the most important thing?
What are we prioritizing?
So that is where the intersectionof strategy and um, people.
Right.
That's that interaction, havinga, a very clear conversation of
are we fighting for our lives?
Is, I mean, is money the most importantthing or is long-term strategy important?
(28:33):
Then without that being said anddiscussed and like on the table,
then you see this tension occurring.
Right?
So you just, when we watch ourdifferent companies that we invest
in or advise, we see these forces atplay and being able to design them
with core intention, like, okay.
Who are the people who are decisionmakers, who are the people who take from,
(28:56):
um, the decision makers and execute?
Having clarity there, then figuringout what is the most important thing
we're doing Is, is long term strategymore important than short term?
What is our mix of investments?
Having clarity there and then alsolooking at what are the tools we use?
Where can I find thesedecisions that have been made?
Right?
Um, so all those things are importantand you need to be working on them and
(29:17):
figuring out how they, they, they, they,they, they, they work, they interact.
Sorry.
We've said the same thing a fewtimes, but we're trying to, I was
trying to give you an example.
You're driving it home and it's, it'snecessary because this is, again, it's
being intentional in the early phases.
Right.
And not just letting it happen at,at whatever whim it's gonna happen.
people think that effort andhaving fun produces good outcomes.
(29:41):
But I think what we want people tounderstand is that there's a hidden
rhythm to this thing that they gotta payattention to regardless of your stage.
Right.
Yeah.
It's always happening.
The people there the way find yourstrategy the execution, how, how get done.
Like, and they, they evolve, right?
So always that
Oh yeah.
We, we, one of, in the book we talk alot of, we actually reference stages a
(30:02):
lot where, like, when you're a startup,here's the forces acting on you.
When you are mid here's the forcesacting on you and how they're different.
And when you're bigger, hereare the forces and how they
act on you at that stage.
So we are actually very,uh, descriptive about it.
Yeah.
No, it's, it's great.
So the book, we've mentioned the, the bookby but it's called Building Rocket Ships.
(30:24):
Uh, Amazon or, or actually where you,you guys tell, tell me where, where
can they find building rocket ships?
Right.
So we wrote the book because we wantthe knowledge about how to build
technology companies, which is.
Somehow still stuck in Silicon Valleyand in Seattle and a a few cities
Yeah.
Yeah.
be spread around the world.
We want, we want better productsin the world, uh, and happier
(30:46):
customers and rich founders.
And so we building, rocketBuilding Rocketships.
You can find it on Amazon.
And every edition, uh, thereis, I think we're gonna work
on the audio version of that.
And you on, on Shopify, you cansee the same additions, but there's
an additional bonus on Shopify.
You have the Pro Edition.
The Pro Edition is aproduct in and of itself.
(31:07):
It is the book in digital form.
You can also, you, you get thebook, you get a digital form of the
book, and you get twice the book inpractical templates you can share
with your team to turn it into, youknow, acceleration for your career.
And so, Ezinne worked really hard on thatversion and, uh, I'm so proud of him.
(31:28):
I love it.
Yeah,
so just to make it easy, weare@productmind.co, product mind.co.
And if you do slash book, or ifyou land on that page, you'll see
something that says, get our book.
That's the fastest way to get thePro edition, which is the codo
edition, which is interactive.
I'm always looking at it and peopleare always sending feedback or
questions and we'll update or, so it'sa really interactive product as well.
(31:52):
So if that's your, if that's your jam,then definitely go to product mind.co
also join the Product Mind community.
We are curating a bunch oflike builders and so that can
talk to and uh, on, on Slack.
So the Product Mind community isalso available for people to join
just to talk about this stuff.
That's super helpful.
I, I want more people with communities.
'cause again, we're mammals, right?
Like we, we gotta keepinter that's not changing.
(32:14):
We need to communicate.
I talk about that all the
See, see you.
You're getting it.
There needs under, always
Well, this is why, like the, the cloningsto, or the digital twin, it's all just
furthering communication and connection.
That's how I see it.
It's connection scale.
So like.
Yeah.
Connection skill.
I
that's what fires me up.
So I think we all have to takethat into this new reality of AI
(32:37):
being everywhere and, you know,who knows what the world looks like
in two years, you hard but, okay.
This is fascinating.
I'm happy that we, um, so goget building rocket ships.
Yeah.
Go to, we will link it all in theshow notes, so product mind.co, um,
doing all the things Substack as well.
Ezinne, Oji, It is been awesome.
(32:58):
Thank you so much for your time.
It was an honor.
Get you both.
It was
thank you.
Thank you.
Joe.
We, we had so hanging out with you.
You're very
for having us.
Thanks for having us.
Yeah.
What if the next trillion dollarcompany isn't chasing trends, but
(00:04):
actually solving age old humanneeds just reimagined with ai?
So today we're joined by OJand two powerhouse builders and
investors and tech veterans.
They came from companies like Twitter,Typeform, Calendly, T-Mobile, and
they just teamed up to release theirbook called Building Rocket Ships.
(00:25):
And in this conversation we'regonna unpack a lot from that book
and also just in general the trendsright now and what it really takes
to build a product that's going tolast in this whole AI gold rush time.
Let's dive into it.
Oji, Ezinnee to have that.
You're, you're both here andthis is a, it's honestly just
(00:47):
gonna make it even better.
So you're a power duo, butthere you're more than that too.
I mean, you guys have individually,I mean, I can't even list
all the background, so like.
Everyone do your independentresearch, but let's talk about it.
You, you both come from incrediblebackgrounds with large companies.
Companies like Twitter type form,uh, T-Mobile, and I'm kind of
(01:10):
blending both of your sides here.
Um, Procore Construction, I mean there's,'cause I know there's construction folks
listening, there's tech people listening.
Um, the fact is you guys havegreat perspective of businesses
who have done amazing things,have exited, scaled people.
And like leading on the tech.
And I think that's kind of fast,that's really fascinating in this
(01:30):
world of AI and all the, the toolsthat everybody's experiencing in
this, this next wave that's happening.
So I guess I'll start with thankingyou and how are you guys doing?
How are you, how are you feelingwith, uh, where we're at in the world?
So everything's so fast, but like,how are you feeling about it?
Are you, are you like jazzed up for it?
Are are opportunities?
mean, I'm, I'm excited.
(01:51):
I think that there is somuch change happening.
Breck neck, neck speed.
Um, it is dizzying, but, uh,I love rollercoasters anyway,
so this just works for me.
Um, I, I, I feel lucky that I've beenin the tech space for quite a while, so
I'm able to look behind and see, thinkabout what happened in the past and
(02:11):
try and get some learnings from that.
So.
Um, really excited about it actually.
up?
yeah.
No, no, I, I feel the same way.
This is, uh, it feelslike a gold rush time
Mm-hmm.
and it is, but, and I thinkthere are negative and positive
versions of that gold rush, butI think the thing that you are.
(02:32):
Listeners should understand is thatthis is a time of great opportunity.
Like when Bill Gates, uh,discovered computing in the 75 to
80, 83 when I started, Microsoftwas a time of great opportunity.
Silicon chips had just come out and theworld was gonna change, and he saw it.
A lot of people did not.
Okay.
And, and when the internet, whichBill Gate did not Shepherd, came out.
(02:56):
I like to say the internet dropped.
When the internet dropped.
There's a time of great opportunityand we've made trillions, you know,
like catch a trillion bucks from that.
Right?
And the earlier thing, andso this is the same time.
And so patient builders,ingenious builders.
Um, are going to change the world.
(03:18):
I wanna talk about money 'cause they willmake money and money, just to be clear.
But we're very excited aboutthat big level of thinking,
but also just the details.
Like what is the life of a startup guy?
What is the life of a startup market?
Or what is the life of an investor?
All those things are gonna change.
And you know, these are some ofthe things that we've been thinking
about and we've been living.
Yeah, you've definitely lived itthrough your own individual journeys.
(03:40):
course, I'm sure you share a lotof, you know, the inside scoop and,
and obviously you wrote a book aboutit as well, so, we'll, we'll talk
about that and, but I mean, yousaid it's, it's great opportunity.
I mean, I just came back, I, I toldyou I came back from Cisco Live
where that's all their keynotes.
Were, we're interviewingsome of the top execs.
And I'm like, everybody isjust has the same mindset.
(04:02):
Like they're an AI forward company.
And but you said patient buildersbecause, uh, and I'm curious,
what do you mean by by that?
Og.
there's a lot of our industry that is.
Trend focused, right?
Someone builds a Calendly.
You don't, you want to know how manypeople who are building a Calendly beater
(04:23):
that's come to me to consult with them.
You know what I mean?
So people chase trends.
Originality isn't, uh, like a premiumin industry, actually even investing.
You know, like you see something thatworks and you want to, you know, invest
in next Facebook and before you knowit, you know, people start chasing,
uh, failed social media startups.
My point is that people who tap into,uh, perennial needs and workflows,
(04:50):
like there's some, there's anundercurrent of value that is the same
from generation to generation, evenwhen the technology level changes.
like, for example, on the consumer side,we know that dating is always gonna make
money if you're ingenious at it, right?
Everything from, uh, plentyof fish to, uh, Tinder, right?
We know that, uh, gamble, I don'twanna say this, but there are all
kinds of things, sports and so onthat is that, that are always good.
(05:13):
But the technology changes and the.
Which it, it comes out changes,uh, but also in B2B, people are
always gonna wanna sell stuff.
People are always going to marketing.
People are always gonna want to crunchthe numbers and do data analysis.
But the things that we built 10 yearsago, 15 are not gonna cut it anymore.
And they're gonna be different becausewe just got a brand new tool that's
gonna make all the things easier.
(05:34):
So patient builders are people who tryto find sharp problems that are deep.
We've had for a very long time.
Right.
You know, Microsoft Office is writing.
50,000 years, uh, math andaccounting, 50,000 years, problem.
You know what I mean?
Like email.
Email is, communication is smoke signals.
(05:55):
And so like, patient builders are peoplewho plumb deep needs and then find ways
to express them in new ways that match thenext level of technology and convenience.
That's what I mean.
That's a great way to put it.
That it's, yeah, they're, they're deepneeds expressed in, in, in different ways.
It's, it's sharp problems.
Like you said, ones that will alwaysbe around, but they're, they're
(06:15):
almost like shape shifting in
The
yes, technology shifts around the need.
Sure.
What?
What do you think doesn'tshift in all of this?
let, let's put it this way, I,there's something, a thesis we
have is a great replacement.
Like everything you're using todaywill not be the same in 10 years.
Like they have been thesame for 10 years roughly.
(06:36):
They will not be the same.
They will all be replaced.
The only question is, are the peoplewho make them today going to be
the ones who make the new thing,or is it gonna be a new startup?
And the thing that doesn't change is like.
Sorry, I don't want to get existential.
ISN was,
It's okay.
I that
kind of stuff
No.
She was accuse me of not beingpractical, but the thing, you
(06:57):
It's
know, we we're all mammals,you know what I mean?
Like we need to socialize.
We, there's some things that are,you know, we thought Twitter would
change the world, but it turned outthat people just found their tribe
on Twitter and just stuck with it.
And instead of havingconversations instead of in a
pub, they just have on Twitter.
So that's what I mean, likesome things have changed because
they're rooted in human nature.
(07:18):
So some things, no, I'll just add to that.
Um, some of the things that don't change,like Oji said, the need is the need.
It's a perennial need, it'san underlying need, whether
it's B2C or individual or B2B.
The second I would sayis return on investment.
Right?
The people who are paying attentionto their, how their investment
is being used and shaped.
(07:39):
Are the ones who will win.
And I say this because, um, we find peoplewho build like, uh, you know, everything
is fast, everything is happening,uh, quickly, and some people rush.
And in that rushing, they're notthinking about the math in the end.
And there're always going to beanalogies to currency, right?
Back in the day, in thesocial media world, it was.
(08:01):
Followers, right?
Followership, then influencersand the, you know, that
became currency in some way.
Building a social networkbecame more important.
Eyeballs became more important.
So there is always an an an, an analogy.
To currency in some way.
So I think that it just being ableto pay attention to perennial need,
really paying attention to a return oncapital, that always will matter, period.
(08:25):
Because you have to pay for the future.
And then what is youranalogy for currency?
What is your analogy for profitability?
What is your analogy for growth?
Because there always is onein, in, in this day and time.
So I haven't figured out what it isin an AI world, but with every new
technology there often is something.
So just paying attention towhat that analogy could be.
technology companies are, webuild stuff that make people
(08:50):
either useful or happy, right?
So that doesn't change likefounders and product managers and
product marketers and investors.
It's really about build something.
And I love the way like.
Some of these really, like earlystage people talk about it.
You build something that peoplelove that is really useful, that
solves a sharp problem for them.
(09:10):
That's one dimension.
And the second one is you builda a, um, business model that
makes you money from that, right?
Um, software works really well becausethe marginal cost of production is zero.
And so if you hit a certain numberof customers, you make money.
And a lot of it.
(09:30):
So you make them happy, you solvea real thing, and then you design a
business model that's really efficientand I think those, those won't change.
Awesome answers by the way.
how started with existential, whichI love, way into this profound
shift practical practicality.
Let's make it a little bit morepractical 'cause you're all about like.
Well, how does someone like a startup,I mean, and let's be honest, like even
(09:53):
if someone hasn't run a startup beforeand they're listening, watching, they
have some existing business, theyprobably see maybe a sharp problem that
they wanna solve in their vertical.
So maybe they do the vibe, coding, codingthing, or maybe they just hire some, yeah.
Or, or maybe they're justtrying to figure out.
What the, um, what the product market fitis, you know, just like, but how to test
(10:15):
it at it at the smallest possible level.
Like how do you get someone, guess howdo you navigate this and how would you
advise someone in that, in that phase?
the way this works is our industry hasactually pissed away a lot of money.
Based on the passions of founders.
Like founders wake up one morningand they obsessed with one thing that
(10:36):
they think should change in the world.
The thing that we wish, because we spentso much, many hours talking to them, and
actually I've been a founder, so, andI've made this mistake, so I've lived it.
The thing you should check to see is,is this a sharp problem to anybody else?
Is it the sharper around to 10 people,to 20 people, to a million people?
'cause that's what really matters.
It's not about.
(10:57):
An expression of your need and youringenuity that you're bringing to market.
That's, that's sort of the old way.
It's really customer satisfaction.
We should be thinking like, uh, youknow, like Procter and Gamble, they
don't make a Swiffer until theyknow that a million people are gonna
buy a Swiffer, if that makes sense.
So it's like, think about the problems ofother people, not so much your problem.
(11:19):
And then think aboutwhere you have insight.
Uh, so that you can injectpassion and stick to iveness when
you're building that startup.
When, uh, Jeff Bezos built Amazon,he built a shopping mart, right?
He built a shopping mar.
I don't even know if hewas passionate about it.
I think he was passionate, not justabout building shopping mart, but
building something that was moreaccessible to people than just getting
(11:40):
outta there can driving somewhereelse, versus the problem itself is
like, look, this has to transform.
I'm the transform guy of this market.
And so I think you start out by really.
Figuring out, is this a problem thatpeop a lot of people feel deeply.
And then the second thing isyou ask yourself, what would a
transformation of that look like?
(12:02):
And then you build a simple, lovable,but complete version of that and
put it in front of customers.
Sometimes that will take you three months.
If it's a very common problem, it mighttake you two years because the level
of, you know, when they say MVP, minimumviable, minimum for a. A, a big need
is very high because all, there's alot of products in the market, and so
(12:23):
you some, like Figma famously built fortwo years because the, the, the viable
was super high 'cause of Adobe, right?
And so viable took a long time.
So you have to figure out what that is.
Um, the simplest, most, most cogent.
Attention grabbing versionof something you can put out.
(12:44):
And it is a variable time.
We want to keep it as short aspossible, but it's not always possible
to make it in two weeks or whatever.
Yeah.
And that's where I think thesevibe coders and all that, or you
know, like, because everybody hasaccess to cursor now, not to Yeah.
like,
yeah.
I actually think this is an amazing time,um, for that founder you're referring
to who is trying to figure out, okay,I, I found a, a, a, a sharp problem.
(13:07):
How do I move on?
Because I remember thedays I ran, um, I ran.
Innovation or whatever itis, startup inside a company.
Right?
And the biggest thing was the timeit took to create a prototype, right?
So right now, I think the biggestchallenge most founders will find after
they've done everything like you says,is find the sharp problem, really think
(13:27):
through is how do you get access topeople so that you can actually test.
That is actually the bigger problemnow because prototyping should be easy.
Wizard or vase is all the thingsyou can literally use, cursor,
lovable, all those things tobuild something that is workable.
So it's actually a really,really interesting time.
So it's one of those getoff your but and just do it.
But the hardest part I remember was, youknow, having to log into Craigslist and
(13:52):
incentivize people to show up and useand use my product so that, you know, to
test whether it works or it doesn't work.
But that gaining access so thatpeople could actually play around
with that product and give youfeedback is, is actually the more
challenging piece now than ever before.
Before it was actually writingthe code, building the software.
No Vico coding is making that much easier.
(14:12):
So it's how do you get people andget real feedback because they can
actually use your, your work now.
So that's an interesting challenge.
So for founders listening, you know, it's,it really is more about access to humans
and humans who will tell you the truth.
that's a good point.
Yeah.
So are you saying like trusted people,you know, people maybe that you hire,
(14:33):
bring on your team as, and also peopleto give you feedback and tell you
No.
No.
So, so the thing is, is, is, is,is target, like one of the things
that people do is like they'll buildsomething and they'll put it out in the
world and they'll get mixed feedback.
Well, you should always filter yourmixed feedback by your target customers.
So one of the things you should do is.
Any problem, sharp or not, hasa profile, a very narrow profile
(14:57):
initially that respond to it.
Not everybody, right?
So sharp problems.
Also attach to narrow target customers.
So find a hundred of them whowill experience what you you're
doing for free or for Peter.
Doesn't matter what it is, it depends onwhat you're testing, what target them.
And I think what isn't is sayingis that the bill part is, um.
(15:20):
The built part is super fast.
Now, like we, we met a team in Ukrainewho after you get off the phone and
tell 'em about your problem, they'llcrank out the prototype in four hours.
that's great.
That's okay.
In four hours.
the we're in.
Yeah.
yeah, but if you then get theprototype, what do you do with it?
Well expose it to customersas soon as possible.
Low stakes, beta, whatever you wannacall it, and start to learn, right?
(15:43):
Is that learning process thatmakes you a viable startup.
Uh, it's incredible and I think thatshould be the shift that people are
hearing right now is like, okay, thecreation piece is, and you could of
course get someone else to do that in.
Like, how would you, would you suggestmost people, 'cause it's very simple to
get distracted and start going down the,the lovable train or, you know, cursor,
but it, like, as a, as a founder and,and obviously the, you guys are investing
(16:07):
in these as well with your fund, right?
So like how do you advisesomeone to maybe, uh, work
with people to help them out?
'cause I know that's a big, that'sa challenge right now to find folks
that can think in this way and alsoyou can trust, I know it's kind of
loaded, but where do you start there?
one of the underestimated parts ofbuilding is like just building, like
(16:32):
before it was, most founders don't havecoding skills, and so you have to find
a team, or at least one person, CTO,whatever you call it, a co-founder.
Now you can just startbuilding it yourself.
Now, honestly, I'll, I'll tellyou my synthesis, based on looking
at all these tools is that.
It's actually difficult to buildsomething customer ready with
lovable and so on and so forth.
(16:52):
It's harder than people think becausewhat what happens is you have to
be smart enough to think throughall the cus the human parts of
this, not just throw up some code.
Like, does it feel good?
Does this journey hang together?
And very, people aren't intrigued.
Some people go to college for this stuff.
Right?
Does it hang together?
Um, because you can throw up somethingsimple, but something that people will
(17:13):
use for a day, two days and be happy.
That's not trivial.
Uh, but that's getting easier regard.
I know it's how hard it is.
It used to be super hard.
You used to have two developersyou work with for two months,
three months, six months.
Now you can put together a prototypeyourself, which is actually a very
good PRD, the prototype itself towork with professional developers
who you get online immediately.
(17:35):
And then the thing that happens isyou throw it to the first customer.
They love it, but it's basic.
And they're like, changethis and change that.
If you're not smart enough to vibe,code the changes and you're stuck.
Does that make sense?
So start, start by yourself.
But don't think that you cango the distance by yourself
unless you're a professional.
There are lots of developers whobuild like single one man SaaS because
(17:58):
they can't, they, they're trained.
Trained.
But if you're not, start by yourself.
But very quickly, hire people who cancontinue, who are pro or semi-pro,
because the part of building asoftware, like we said, is listening to
customer feedback and adjusting to it.
And a lot of people just like.
Can't do that just withvibe coding, right?
(18:18):
Your customer says, do thisfeature and then you're stuck.
Back in the day, you'd write aproduct requirement document.
It's a s like a physical documentback then you'd have V one, then
you'd have V two, then V three.
By the time the product was launching,you were probably at VA hundred and
something and you were changing wordson a page because you learned more.
You, you learn what the requirement was.
(18:38):
You learned what was optional.
You learned what the softwaredeveloper had to do and what
need could be done, right?
So that's the back in the day.
Right now, to Oji's point, it's importantthat founders just vibe, code, build that
prototype, but not get stuck and in lovewith the software on the page, right?
They need to do V two and they can startover again because with V one you, your
(19:02):
goal was not necessarily to have itworking in the user's hand, was to learn.
Then V two, you learn again,throw away the other code, build
it again, V four, learn again.
Right.
And if you think of it that way, bythe time you're building your V 10, you
have more information of what to givethe coding team you're bringing on.
(19:23):
Right.
But if you think of the software as.
are going to get stuck.
But if you use it more as a learning tool,a prototype, your pro product requirement
document that is being re revised eachtime, and I think you have it, this is,
I was just talking to some like, uh,product person I I mentor and this is
literally what I was just saying to her.
is how you need to think about it.
(19:43):
It's there for you to learn with.
At Product Mind, we believe that PRDsare going the way of the Dodo, right?
A PRD is gonna be an map.
You, you, you, becausehere's how it works.
You write a PRD, you sit in a meetingwith a bunch of developers, you try
to get them to see your vision, andthen they write something and they
tell you, is it, is it what you want?
it what you want?
(20:03):
And then you do another PRD and youhave another meeting, blah, blah, blah.
No, you the founder, you write the app,but don't think about this as a final app.
It is an avatar of your final lab.
It embodies your vision.
You hand it off.
The developer doesn'tneed to read a document.
They can see it, they can read the code,and then you can keep revising until you
(20:24):
get an application that customers love.
And they'll know how to make it secure.
They'll know how to make it scalable.
They'll know where the dead ends are,and that is where they come in to
actually finess it and make it beautiful.
But at least you'vegiven them that avatar.
So think of that.
Just run with it and justmake your versions to learn.
Put it in your customer's hands and justhave them learn and it's okay to trash it.
(20:45):
Take your learnings, take that,put it into the new prompt, right?
And start over.
There's nothing there.
You didn't write that,those lines of code.
So don't be precious about it.
Well, we're working on a project nowwhere we are on V 20 of the app building,
Yeah.
And that's all, that's allthrough, uh, no code, you know,
all all this stuff that the
(21:06):
Yeah, we're, we're using, we use amix of things like CEL and so on,
but at, at fowling, uh, we a studio.
So we invest, but wealso build, if that makes
have, yeah, a few people building littlethings that to test and try, so yeah.
I love it.
I mean, would you suggest most peopleget familiar with these kind of
apps just to see what's possible?
Like have you
hundred percent.
(21:27):
Like you should be.
If you're a builder, youshould be living in these apps.
They should be your best friend.
Cool.
And you mentioned lovable cursor.
Do you have a, all these
So Vexcel, lovable cursor.
There also de design tools.
Um, on that side, there are websitecreation tools for the marketing
applications that whatever is speeding up,development by 10 x you should be using.
(21:50):
I love it.
I think your, your analogy to,uh, creating an avatar, it's
just like a customer avatar.
there's psychographics, demographics,all these different qualities that thing.
Um, and it's just a snapshotof that, that person.
But like, that might evenchange with more data and input
hundred percent.
A hundred percent.
(22:10):
Everything is the, the, you know, the,the, the prototype, the vibe coated
thing is a representation of an early,that's how you go from a garden shack
to the, the Empire State Building.
Well, you remember that Noteveryone matters initially.
Only the people you identify whoactually need experiencing this
problem, not the entire world.
Um, those are the people that matterand target them with that thing.
(22:33):
I actually wanna underscore this.
Um, this is something I learned workingwith Techstars and all the founders.
Um, there, um, it's really importantthat people listening know that.
When you do put your product,Oji, you said this earlier,
but I need to underscore.
When you put your product outthere, you will get feedback, right?
If you get 10 people, but really payattention and give weight to who we,
(22:55):
what we call the ideal customer profile.
Like you really need to understand who isthis thing for and give weight to that.
So even if you've heard from 10people, four may be the only ones
that actually truly matter becausethat's who you are targeting first.
You want them to be your early adopters,you're shaping the product around them.
So that's something I noticed that,um, folks that I talk to often haven't
(23:15):
learned and is worth underscoring.
That's a very good underscore.
I think you're gonna save a lotof people a lot of time, I hope.
And money, you know, and, and, andlike you said, it's a gold rush right
now, but it's for the patient builders.
I know it's for the focused as well.
Like I've heard a lotof people say that like.
If you just focus in onwhatever that sharp problem is
(23:36):
that you're trying to solve.
Obviously with feedback, justremember like we're in a noisy world
that moves super fast and we thinkthat social media is distracting.
I mean, just getting into cursorlovable, then you're gonna like, you
never know, and then think of, oh,what's the other new tool I should try?
It's like, hold
Hundred percent.
I
so squirrel.
Yeah, yeah.
when MCPS came out and everyone waslike, oh, you know, everyone is going
(24:00):
and yeah, yeah, every, I would nowignore rest APIs and do MCPS forever.
Mm. No.
Yeah,
not necessarily.
and if you know what that means,y'all go listen, you know, listen
to some YouTube videos or someone.
But either way, well, what, I kindawanna wrap it up on this, but tell,
talk to me about a product system andhow you guys approach that because.
(24:26):
Maybe, maybe you nail it on a, onthe first version or, or single
feature, but how do you keep thatgoing and how do you create a
system out of it that's sustainable?
let, let me, let me offerlike a high level definition.
Oji is really good at like, likegiving good summaries and succinct
soundbites, so I'll let him end with it.
But first off, a, a product system isactually refers to the things that are
(24:50):
happening within your organization, right?
The different systems that actuallyinteroperate that are present, whether
or not you're paying attention to them.
That lead to the products you build.
And when we talk about a productsystem, we're actually talking about
three core things no matter what inany company, even a, a little startup.
There's a way in which your peopleinteract with each other, right?
(25:13):
There's a way in which, so we callthat the system of people, and there's
also a way in which you are findingstrategic direction, how you're making
decisions, how you're prioritizing,and that we call holistically a
strategy or way finding, right?
What decisions matter there,but what's most important.
That's what we call strategy.
(25:33):
There's a system of that.
Then there's also a system of execution.
Who does what?
How do they do it?
How does it ladder up into
What tools, what
What tools are we using?
Where do we reference our code?
How do, is it PRDs versus uh, prototypes?
How do they work together?
And that's what we calla system execution.
That is what a product system is reallyabout, whether or not you have sat
(25:58):
down and thought about it that way.
They exist.
So when we, when we name a productsoperating system, we are actually asking
you to be intentional about how thosethree things interact with each other
how they, how, how those three thingsinteract with each other and how they
lead to repeatability and scale over time.
(26:19):
So that's really what it really is about.
Oji, you wanna layer in and bring it
No, think I you, think you nailed it.
There are three, four.
Think let's talk about, then,let's use physics as a metaphor.
There are three major forcesacting on a startup or any
technological company, right?
People, um, how you finddirection and how you execute.
(26:43):
Whether or not you realize that thoseforces are acting on your startup,
they're acting on your company.
Even if Google right, there's a reasonpeople fret about the direction of
Google, they didn't miss something.
That it's the same thing.
And what we try to teach peopleis to make those things not, uh,
(27:05):
to make them more intentional.
And we teach people how to interactfor, well, those three things.
They the, like how they can doballet together to make sure that
you have an innovation enginethat is humming all the time.
If you have one or two of thosethings or none of those things,
you'll eventually stutter.
Right.
(27:25):
I at Microsoft when we werestuttering during Obama years,
and I saw this happen, um.
App builder, startup, andit's the same principle.
And in the book we talk a lot abouthow to optimize the interaction
between those three, right?
So that you are not a one hit wonder.
You can innovate all the time.
'cause when you do it, your organizationactually produces new ideas constantly.
(27:49):
because
Yeah.
We see,
it's intentional.
we, we, if you think about people, right?
You see a founder and employee tensionbecause there isn't this clarity on
let's move to the decision makingpiece, like what is most important.
So you, so sometimes you'll see thattension, but that tension happens
not necessarily because they'reindividuals and butting heads.
(28:11):
It's because there probablyhasn't been an intentional
conversation of their way finding.
What is the most important thing?
What are we prioritizing?
So that is where the intersectionof strategy and um, people.
Right.
That's that interaction, havinga, a very clear conversation of
are we fighting for our lives?
Is, I mean, is money the most importantthing or is long-term strategy important?
(28:33):
Then without that being said anddiscussed and like on the table,
then you see this tension occurring.
Right?
So you just, when we watch ourdifferent companies that we invest
in or advise, we see these forces atplay and being able to design them
with core intention, like, okay.
Who are the people who are decisionmakers, who are the people who take from,
(28:56):
um, the decision makers and execute?
Having clarity there, then figuringout what is the most important thing
we're doing Is, is long term strategymore important than short term?
What is our mix of investments?
Having clarity there and then alsolooking at what are the tools we use?
Where can I find thesedecisions that have been made?
Right?
Um, so all those things are importantand you need to be working on them and
(29:17):
figuring out how they, they, they, they,they, they, they work, they interact.
Sorry.
We've said the same thing a fewtimes, but we're trying to, I was
trying to give you an example.
You're driving it home and it's, it'snecessary because this is, again, it's
being intentional in the early phases.
Right.
And not just letting it happen at,at whatever whim it's gonna happen.
people think that effort andhaving fun produces good outcomes.
(29:41):
But I think what we want people tounderstand is that there's a hidden
rhythm to this thing that they gotta payattention to regardless of your stage.
Right.
Yeah.
It's always happening.
The people there the way find yourstrategy the execution, how, how get done.
Like, and they, they evolve, right?
So always that
Oh yeah.
We, we, one of, in the book we talk alot of, we actually reference stages a
(30:02):
lot where, like, when you're a startup,here's the forces acting on you.
When you are mid here's the forcesacting on you and how they're different.
And when you're bigger, hereare the forces and how they
act on you at that stage.
So we are actually very,uh, descriptive about it.
Yeah.
No, it's, it's great.
So the book, we've mentioned the, the bookby but it's called Building Rocket Ships.
(30:24):
Uh, Amazon or, or actually where you,you guys tell, tell me where, where
can they find building rocket ships?
Right.
So we wrote the book because we wantthe knowledge about how to build
technology companies, which is.
Somehow still stuck in Silicon Valleyand in Seattle and a a few cities
Yeah.
Yeah.
be spread around the world.
We want, we want better productsin the world, uh, and happier
(30:46):
customers and rich founders.
And so we building, rocketBuilding Rocketships.
You can find it on Amazon.
And every edition, uh, thereis, I think we're gonna work
on the audio version of that.
And you on, on Shopify, you cansee the same additions, but there's
an additional bonus on Shopify.
You have the Pro Edition.
The Pro Edition is aproduct in and of itself.
(31:07):
It is the book in digital form.
You can also, you, you get thebook, you get a digital form of the
book, and you get twice the book inpractical templates you can share
with your team to turn it into, youknow, acceleration for your career.
And so, Ezinne worked really hard on thatversion and, uh, I'm so proud of him.
(31:28):
I love it.
Yeah,
so just to make it easy, weare@productmind.co, product mind.co.
And if you do slash book, or ifyou land on that page, you'll see
something that says, get our book.
That's the fastest way to get thePro edition, which is the codo
edition, which is interactive.
I'm always looking at it and peopleare always sending feedback or
questions and we'll update or, so it'sa really interactive product as well.
(31:52):
So if that's your, if that's your jam,then definitely go to product mind.co
also join the Product Mind community.
We are curating a bunch oflike builders and so that can
talk to and uh, on, on Slack.
So the Product Mind community isalso available for people to join
just to talk about this stuff.
That's super helpful.
I, I want more people with communities.
'cause again, we're mammals, right?
Like we, we gotta keepinter that's not changing.
(32:14):
We need to communicate.
I talk about that all the
See, see you.
You're getting it.
There needs under, always
Well, this is why, like the, the cloningsto, or the digital twin, it's all just
furthering communication and connection.
That's how I see it.
It's connection scale.
So like.
Yeah.
Connection skill.
I
that's what fires me up.
So I think we all have to takethat into this new reality of AI
(32:37):
being everywhere and, you know,who knows what the world looks like
in two years, you hard but, okay.
This is fascinating.
I'm happy that we, um, so goget building rocket ships.
Yeah.
Go to, we will link it all in theshow notes, so product mind.co, um,
doing all the things Substack as well.
Ezinne, Oji, It is been awesome.
(32:58):
Thank you so much for your time.
It was an honor.
Get you both.
It was
thank you.
Thank you.
Joe.
We, we had so hanging out with you.
You're very
for having us.
Thanks for having us.
Yeah.
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