Justin Abrams: The Surprising Truth About Why Opportunity Beats Passion Every Time!

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Curious how to partner.
Minimal investment with maximum impact.
So Justin Abrams and I break down howto leverage small tests and increase
your surface area for luck and buildrelationships that will propel your
growth no matter what field you're in.
Let's dive into it.

(00:20):
Justin, we're doing this.
It's great to have you here, my friend.
How are you?
I am so good man, and I'mso psyched to be here.
This has been a struggle, like wehave definitely taken our time to book
this episode, and I appreciate you forbobbing and weaving with my crazy life.
We'll unpack a little bit of it today, butJoe, I'm psyched to see you again on the
podcast and join your show for a change.
Yeah man, I was just on yours and,and I mean like, well strictly from

(00:44):
nowhere and you can find that you,we'll link all this stuff up here
channels we're everywhere as we
I mean like I think you just havelike such a cool brand and Cool.
I know you have a coolvibe and personality.
Immediately got along, but we gotconnected actually through a mutual client
of ours doing some, doing some dev work.
I was doing more like on the marketingside, you're actually doing the what?

(01:06):
The advising and tech side.
I mean, you do so much cool stuff, man.
So, and then, and then gettingto know you on your show.
That's why I was like, well, Igotta have you on mine now, you
know, to just keep the party going.
And of course we'll link you tothe, uh, the other episode, but.
Yeah, man.
Um, you're, you're living,we're both in wild times.
I mean, great things happening,new additions to the family.

(01:28):
I know on your side, things are, arejust, things are popping in in all ways.
So what, what keeps you groundedright now that just comes to mind?
Like,
You know what?
There's quite a few thingsthat keep me grounded.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna blend the, thethree major categories, you know, we'll
go like extracurricular, we'll go theprofessional path and, and family.

(01:51):
You know, I'm in a, in a veryinteresting part of my life
as far as family is concerned.
There's nothing more groundingthan nesting and welcoming
a, an infant into the world.
So like, I'm very much at home innuclear, uh, very limited as far as
social engagements and things that I'mdoing outside of just my, my nuclear,
my nuclear wife and son that I have now.

(02:12):
And, uh, so that really keepsme very focused and, and that
allows me to prioritize theother two categories, which is.
The business and myextracurriculars, my my activities.
And so I have a really healthyrelationship with my business.
You know, I often give the advice,Joe, that opportunity is sometimes

(02:32):
more important to follow than passion.
I'm really lucky to have become passionateabout my opportunity that came my way.
So for me, being in this business while,you know, like running an agency lifestyle
and being a service provider and like.
A hectic lifestyle for sure, and likereally hard to run this business.
But like, I really feel like Iwas kind of made for all of that.

(02:54):
You know, my historical careeris in, is in sales, is in client
services, is in being a serviceprovider and an expert in my domain.
Like, this is just second nature to me.
And instead of doing it for anemployer, I'm, I'm doing it for myself.
And I have the privilege of beingan employer, which is a whole
different topic we can talk aboutthat I'm really passionate about.
And then of course my activitiesjust like really keep me remembering

(03:17):
that I'm human and capable and,um, sometimes not so capable.
And like, it's really sobering tobe an athlete and like, I'm not
old at all, but like I'm gettingolder and I'm aware of my abilities.
And we were just talking.
We can unpack it if you'd like about someinjuries that I'm nursing back and, All
of those things, pursuing my activities,everything from climbing to, to I

(03:41):
snowboard in the winter and and surfingand cycling, and I could go on and on.
I got so many little activities.
CrossFit for sure is part of mylife and just generally in fitness
and wellness and nutrition, likethese are all big categories that
I'm really super passionate about.
But in reality, it, it, it really isall meant to just keep me grounded,
keep my head from blowing up, keepme humble, um, keep me pursuing

(04:03):
new activities and new adventuresand things that just fuel my fire.
So, yeah, man, I, I, I have a wholesystem of ways and continue to evolve
ways for myself to, to remain grounded.
that's good man.
And yeah, it seems like a very,like you can communicate it really
well too, whereas, you know, a lotof us just, I mean, it probably
helps to have a podcast too.
Right.
And
It does a little

(04:23):
know, I know you have a greatbusiness business partner as
well, good friend of yours.
So I mean, like that,there's always that too.
Um.
It's right.
I see a lot of sim similaritieswith us too, and also agency owner.
It's like you're interfacingwith people a lot.
It's not like you're just talkingto a screen all day or, yeah, no,
no fault of their own, but likejust creating content all day.
But it's like when you're actuallywith people engaging, solving

(04:45):
problems together, building together,it's like you reach, I don't know,
there's some something different.
'cause I do the same thing naturally.
but I'm curious, I, I wannago back to that whole like,
follow the opportunity thing.
Like can you unpack that a little bitmore and your, your thought behind that.
Sure.
You know, like, um, it's a very,very, uh, mutual belief between
me and my business partner.

(05:06):
One tangential, just backstory of me andmy business partner for your audience.
Uh, my, my partner who is alsothe chief technology officer and
chief architect of Cause of aKind, his name is Michael Rispoli.
He's been my friendsince we're 15 years old.
He's my rock climbing buddy, andlike, we're still climbing together
a couple days a week and, and like.
That's a, that's a relationshipbuilt on the foundation of

(05:29):
a super intentional sport.
And it is one thing to be superpassionate about climbing.
It's another thing to be reallyrealistic about climbing, because
it's quite literally a deadly sport.
So while we're very passionate about it.
Neither of us were ever gonnabe a professional at it.
Neither of us was ever goingto pursue it as a career.

(05:50):
And so that is really therelationship between pursuing
passion and pursuing opportunity.
If I pursued that as a passion,I probably would not have seen
success in any way, shape, or form.
I maybe would've ended up working inthe climbing industry doing something
related to climbing, and it probablywould've tainted the activity for me.
So when I think about the relationshipof opportunity versus passion, and I

(06:14):
speak to a lot of young people and alot of career coaching and just a lot of
professional development in general, I'mfortunate to do those types of things.
Uh, you often catch the advice frompeople that are your senior, which
is to follow your pers your yourpassions, pursue your passion, figure
out what you like to do, then figureout how to go make a buck at it.

(06:35):
Oftentimes, the things thatwe're passionate about.
Are not the opportunities thatgive us the rest of the formula
that lead to a successful life.
And so for me it was cool tofollow passion, but it was more
valuable for me to follow theopportunities that came my way.
And I'm lucky enough to be, tohave become passionate about the

(06:57):
opportunities that came my way.
And what I talk about is I'm passionateabout people and communicating,
and that's where my career I spent.
North of 15 years in client servicesand sales, like that passion of
communicating functionally withpeople and value propositions
and being your trusted advisor.
That whole formula was, I was sopassionate about it, but cool.

(07:19):
Put a label on it with a job titleso I can catch a paycheck at it.
You know, I was, I, I was followingthe opportunity of creating a business.
Did I originally set out tocreate a service-based business?
Not in the slightest.
I wanted to be a tech founder.
Mike and I have been trying tobuild software since like 2014.
We've had a bunch of failed projectsand opportunity came along, which

(07:41):
was clients looking for us to solvetheir problems and build for them.
And so we followed that opportunityand have been become quite passionate
about the client services motion andabout the project development motion and
about becoming masters of our domain.
And now that passion has become.
Part of our rhetoric, it's become quitecontagious in what we're known for.

(08:03):
And it's like if you want a team sostoked about the problem that you bring
their way, go, go talk to these guys.
And so now we get to evolve off of that.
And now I'm receptive to whereopportunity is coming from.
And I'm a, I'm a passionate entrepreneur.
I'm a passionate operator.
I'm passionate about zero to market.
And so that opens opportunity up allthe way because I'm not pigeonholed.

(08:26):
I wanna work with amazing peoplewho have amazing tangential talents.
And so opportunity for me is all becausemy pursuit of passion as a career I
didn't do, I pursued opportunity andbecame passionate about the skill sets
I was deploying to the opportunity.
And so that's where theadvice comes from is awesome.
If you're that 1% that can pursueyour passion to a level of lifestyle

(08:50):
that you would find to be successful.
If you're not part of that1% group, pursue opportunity.
Don't get stale.
Pursue the next opportunity on topof the experience that you've had.
I'm not saying to settle, I definitelydo not settle, but there is something
to say about pursuing opportunitiesthat come your way and figuring out how

(09:12):
to become passionate about the atomicpieces that put that experience together.
That's good, man, because I mean,it's, it, it clearly states like one.
If you just go to, I'll just shout atyour site again cause of a kind.com.
I remember when I first lookedyou guys up, I was like.
Oh, damn.
This guy is like, these guys.
I love the way that you presentyourself and it's, it's purely

(09:32):
just right in your face.
It's, it's not like as a jerkor anything, it's just straight
up like, here's who we are.
Never miss a website deadline again.
Um, uh, what, what is the thing?
Yeah.
You basically are talking about, yeah,get a no bullshit quote right now.
I mean, it's just thelanguage you're using.
You're just like, yeah,we, we, ridiculous.
We're ridiculously easyto do business with.

(09:55):
Wanna hop on a quick call.
The answer's always yes.
You know, it's, um, are there anyissues that you find or maybe like
as you coach some folks or whatever,like navigating opportunity and, you
know, like, uh, issues in gettingpassionate with an opportunity or,
you know, because it's like it canquickly lead to burnout for some folks

(10:15):
if you don't approach it correctly.
so opportunity shows itself in,in quite a few different ways.
I often speak to young people thatare in pursuit of their first job, and
the hiring market for juniors in anycategory right now is really difficult.
And you may be looking at a really longstint of unpaid internships and lots
of folks just cannot afford, literallyfinancially afford an internship.

(10:37):
They quite literally need the income
Mm.
when that's the scenario, anopportunity comes calling.
Probably shouldn't have too much ofan opinion about how you make money.
And it's always easier to finda gig when you have a gig.
Mm-hmm.
That's just a, that's age oldwisdom and advice right there.
So it really depends on where youare in your career Projection.

(11:01):
It really depends on whatyour network looks like.
It really depends at where you are inyour, in the stages of your career.
And so opportunity presents itselfdifferently for the different stages.
If I'm talking to a younger audience,it is about being employable.
Demonstrate your ability to be employable.
So if you made it through highschool and you didn't have a job.

(11:23):
I, I had my first job out.
I, I was 12 years old.
I was a ca golf course, super accountable.
It's the first time I, it is the firsttime I ever got told f you to my face
because of my performance with subpar.
That's a way to
I never heard that again.
And that's a way to learn again,is from some, some super rich local
that won't pay you for your roundbecause you just weren't good enough.

(11:44):
And so that's a like.
Getting a job, demonstratingyour employable, demonstrating
that you have a pursuit of skillsno matter what job you get.
Again, the lens you look through,you could become passionate about
the core skills that you, that youstitch together for that experience.
Or you could just be slogged by it.
It could be a drag, butthat's all about you, man.

(12:06):
Like that's all about the person.
And like it depends onthe lens that you look in.
I can honestly say I've had somereally horrible jobs in my life.
But I can do, I can dot 'em all together.
I can stitch every single job as aformidable experience, and I can tell
you a story from each one of thosejobs that compounds today, 20 something

(12:27):
years later, into a professionalcareer now opportunity for a more and
mature professional looks different.
It looks like promotional opportunities,it looks like is now the right time after
raising kids to start that business.
I always wanted to start.
It looks like the pursuitof financial freedom.
It looks like the pursuit of, oftravel and calming down and maybe

(12:47):
distributing wisdom, and so opportunitypresents itself depends on where you
are in the stage of your lifecycle.
But man, being a dad of young kids,being, being exposed to the youth and
to the next generation of professionalsthat are out there, the number one thing
that I implore is demonstrate employment.
I don't care where you had a job.

(13:08):
I don't care where youhave a job currently.
I care that somebody else has a litmustest on you and that you're proven.
And now we can all grow into potential.
And again, the opportunity will giveyou new sets of skills to explore that
maybe you'll become a professional at.
So this is all a compounding experience.

(13:29):
I, I love it, man, because with that,yeah, that employable essence, I guess,
and however you get in that mode, itchanges something in us as well, and
the way that we think things through.
And obviously if you need to get paid,if you've got that cash flow coming
in, you're feeling better, you'remore, you're open to more opportunity.
You.
Yeah.
Those dark corners that in your mindare now lit up to something quite

(13:53):
different, you know, and, and thingsjust show up and you're like, holy crap.
It was just
I'll give you, I'll, I'llgive you another piece on it.
I talk about this all the time,uh, in the, in the, in the
lens that a lot of folks have.
Something in the way, probably somethingthat has to do with social anxiety.
I, I had that for a long time in mycareer too, but I was like pushed off

(14:13):
the cliff into networking and, andputting myself out there and being my own
advocate and, and et cetera, et cetera.
Getting a, getting a job,whatever the heck it is.
Putting yourself in thoseuncomfortable situations, it
increases the surface area for luck.
So.
By opening up that avenue for yourself.
You may run into nobody, but you may runinto the next thing that happens to you.

(14:36):
Good or bad.
Luck doesn't always have to be good.
It could be bad luck on that daythat you run into, but if you
stay static, you can guarantee onething is that momentum is cut off.
And so for anybody that is pursuingopportunity or they're passionate about
something and want to explore it alittle bit deeper, again, I specialize
in that zero to market, that zeroto one, that getting that minimum

(14:57):
imaginative product off the groundand like how can we figure out how to
increase our surface area for luck?
For young people, it's about gettinga job, demonstrating talent, building
your small network, getting referrals,taking the next coffee break.
Just get out there andmake a name for yourself.
For the folks that are a littlebit mature in their career, you

(15:18):
have options now, you now you haveexperience, you have worldliness,
you have a little bit of wisdom.
You might, you have a network there.
The options are just different, butwe're all kind of in the same pursuit
of where is the next opportunitycoming from for me to say yes or no to?
And that comes back to increasingthe surface area for luck.
That means like, yo, takethe day off to go skiing.

(15:41):
To treat yourself to the afternoonto go get your nails done or
go go out with your friends.
It's not really about enjoying the moment.
If you're in pursuit ofopportunity, you're hungry for it.
Every one of those outletsis an opportunity to connect
with a new individual, whichopens up new opportunity.
Dude, and there's a bookI wanna recommend here.
I think you'll love it.
I highly recommend you.

(16:03):
You grab it, I mean anyone,it's called Lucky You, and it's
by this author, price Bridget.
And.
The reason why, so I it's, it's like a 50page thing, fast read, but the whole point
is it's, it's all about, well, it's calledthe psychological strategy for multiplying
luck and achieving your big ambitions.

(16:24):
So Lucky You is the name.
It's not on Amazon.
You actually have to buyit through his website.
It's like a pamphlet style.
So this, this book and also a seriesof other books was recommended
by my friend, um, John Asraf.
And he was in The Secret, the movie,and like he's a local buddy of mine
here in San Diego Mastermind andhe was like, Joe read this book.
And then he also, years ago it was someother books, but his is latest one.

(16:47):
It's exactly what you're saying, Justin.
It's basically like the more you putyourself out there, the more you say
yes, the more that you actually engineer.
Opportune, like you have a choice tointroduce more luck into your life.
It's totally up to us.
And I love the, the, the waythat you say it, it's like,
it's the surface area of luck.
I'm like, it's, it's absolutely right.

(17:07):
I don't think he actually framedit as that, praise Bridget
in his book, but it's, you'respeaking the same language, so,
And let's just like, let'shumanize it for a second.
You know what I'm saying?
Like folks probably look at youand me and think extrovert, and
they think like, oh, well it's easyfor you to walk outta the house.
I. But in reality, man, like I havecrazy anxiety level conversations.

(17:28):
I've battled with depression for years.
I battle with body dysmorphia and myself image, my mind's eye of what I look
like in public is quite a bit differentfrom what you actually see on camera.
I'm, I'm one of you.
I'm one of us.
I'm just a regular dude,but like, I refuse to just
sit by and watch my life go.
And so there's been many years where like.

(17:51):
Cumulatively many years ofjust no action, no activity.
I remember just like not feeling valuable,not feeling like I was worthy of any
type of job or in pursuit, and I couldn'tget an interview and like yada yada.
Like I remember all of that.
And now it's in this perspectiveof like, I eat what I kill.

(18:11):
So if I don't get out, if I don't go andhit the pavement and figure out where my
next deal is coming from, I whole, I havea whole business that I have to make sure
I can, I can put payroll through that.
I, I gotta find, I, I have staff.
I, I have a business partner.
We both have families, like the stakesare high, my house is leveraged.
Like, there is no opportunity for me tosit, feel bad for myself and complacent,

(18:34):
yet I battle with all of these things.
That's just the reality of justbeing a man and being human.
And so.
I don't have some crazy formula.
I I, I don't have like, youknow, some spiritual coach that's
taken me from left and right.
Like I just have a ref, a refusalto just be regular and like I have
this saying and my partner and Ihave this saying, which is like, I'd

(18:56):
rather be canceled than irrelevant.
And that's where like my personalbrand comes from and like.
Yeah, just, this is me, man.
These are my battles and strugglesand the things that I have for
myself accomplished, and, and,and man, does it feel good when I
can give a nugget to somebody andsee the light bulb go off, but I'm
just a regular Joe Schmo, you know?
Was there like, 'cause I, I,I'm right there with you Justin.

(19:17):
I've, I've, I very similar.
We're a mirror, right?
Like we're all mirrors and um, like Iknow physical activity for me, jujitsu for
you, you do like, I mean, I do some otherstuff, but you do like a whole my, of my,
whatever that word is.
Uh, do you think that helps youbreak out of that a little bit?
Like to maybe not loosen me up, butat least open up a new layer and

(19:39):
then also as you answer that, like.
How do you get stuck?
Like when you get stuck andwhen you got stuck in the past?
Like how do you feel like you'veshaken yourself outta that rut
you know, I, I used to, I used todo my activities self servingly,
and if you look at the activitiesthat I do, they're all very much
individual contributor activities.
I'm a rock climber.
If you climb on rope, you need oneother person on the other end of the

(20:01):
rope, and like, it's very much justlike not a networking experience.
I'm a CrossFitter.
You can go to a class, keep yourhead down, do your exercise,
and get out and go home.
Uh, I'm a golfer.
You, you could just join a foursome atyour local municipal and like not make
friends and not evangelize yourselfand just play your round of golf.
Keep your head down.
So forth and so on.

(20:21):
You can ask me about everyone of my activities.
I use my activities as an opportunityto let my hair down, be authentically
myself and have unburied conversationsthat don't sound like sales pitches.
So I show up to the gym and I prioritizethe people that are standing around.
I go outta my way to make that fivesecond friend have an introduction.

(20:42):
What do you do?
What are you building?
What do you care about?
And what ends up happening again,it all comes back to increasing
that surface area of luck.
I can't tell you how many timesI've been on the golf course that
has turned into a lead opportunityfor us and has turned into deals.
And so then you figure out differentways of compounding your experience.
For example, I, I believe thatyour first impression is your last

(21:05):
impression, so I don't just givesomebody a way to remember me.
I give them something they'llnever forget and throw away.
And so this is my business card and Iput a QR code on it, and I just, I have
come up with little systems that make methe most memorable person of your day.
And so when I leave the house togo do the things I really enjoy.
I have a conversation with myself in thecar while I'm having anxiety about getting

(21:27):
out and doing that thing, which is, it'sokay if you want to go and be quiet and
put your head down today, but you'llprobably kick yourself if you realize that
the person that was gonna change your lifewas in that gym with you at that moment.
Was, was in that foursome withyou while you were playing golf,
was in the surf lineup with you,was at the campsite next over.

(21:48):
So I just literally.
Excuse my language mind, fuckmyself into believing that this
opportunity is the opportunity.
And usually it's not.
Like, usually it's not how many timesyou go out, you just strike out.
It's just another casual day.
It could just be a lame conversationat the, but you're fine.
It's all good.
You connected?
fine.
And my, my whole goalis to, is to give value.

(22:10):
I give, give, give.
Like I, I, I never ask for the order.
It's part of my sales strategy.
A customer has to askme for the paperwork.
So.
For me, it's more about giving and, and,and, and connecting on conversation.
And like if you get past thosefirst few moments of like weird
pleasantry introductions in Americanculture, you really unlock like a

(22:31):
lot of uniqueness but also a lot ofcrazy similarities between people.
And that's why you and I vibe becausewe got, we got over the hump of just
simple introductions and we reallygot to unpack each other's story.
And like here we are simpatico 3000miles away, running in parallel.
Right?
true, man, because every, like youjust start chip, chip away from

(22:51):
those little, yeah, I don't know,western bears or whatever we set
up for ourselves and I think that'sprobably part of the issues of
social.
I don't know.
There's a greater thing happeningwith society I feel like right
now, where we gotta figure out.
How to get back to people and justcommunicating in person ideally, you
know, um, that's why I love goingto the, yeah, like the Jiujitsu gym.

(23:12):
I freaking love it because likeyou get to connect with people
on a whole different level.
Obviously you're choking each otherout too, so it's like Oh, absolutely.
A whole different level,
Do you trust me now?
yeah, I'm like, actually I do, you know?
So, yeah.
I don't know.
Like there's, I feel like we all needsomething like, but it's up to us
to show up and engage in the moment.

(23:32):
I I agree.
a human bureau.
It's okay.
we went as far as.
We created the Long IslandTechnologist Networking Group.
So like I, I was a little bitburnt out after a career of
traveling into New York City.
My partner, same thing, but like I'mcraving in person networking experiences.
I'm, I'm part of all sorts of differentmembership related networking groups,

(23:54):
executive round tables, leadershipcoaching and mentorship groups.
Like I've pursued all of these things,the pursuit of wisdom and knowledge
and make fewer mistakes as a businessowner was the fuel behind that.
But we found this moment in opportunity,which was, how can I increase the
surface area for luck for everybody else?
Again, it's part of likemy giving mentality.
So we created LongIsland technologists.com.

(24:16):
Not a, not the most beautifulwebsite you'll ever see, but it
is, it is an open source project ifanybody wants to contribute to it.
Uh, and the goal was every 45 days wemeet at the origin location of cause
of a Kind, which is a small coffeeshop in a town called Farmingdale.
And we bring together technologists,technology enthusiasts, brand
developers, uh, if you're working inthe soft skills within the technology

(24:40):
arena, which is project sales, clientservices, revenue ops, whatever, hr,
if you're related to tech in any way,we built our own networking event.
So now what I, I, I'm literally dodoing what I'm preaching, which is.
I increased my own surface area for luck.
Most folks are coming tosee me and my partner.
That's how they found outabout it in the first place.

(25:02):
Yet they leave with a Rolodex.
They leave with a handshakeand an opportunity.
And I'm filling the roomwith business owners.
I'm filling the room with thought leaders.
I'm filling the room with juniors.
And the whole idea is getthese people together.
If you're having trouble in the jobmarket, I'll bring the job market to you.
And so now that has grown into likea significant passion project for
us, but it's all based on this.

(25:23):
Increased my surface areafor luck, self servingly.
And if I can do that at scale foreverybody else, maybe the next great
opportunity comes along for me too.
Dude, it will and it, I'm sure itdoes every single time more than you
can ever even imagine or handle even.
more, more than I think I canrecord and things now, and we're

(25:43):
in a nice position of that.
That sounds great.
Probably not best for me and what I'mtrying to build, and I wish you luck.
And so now it's a really coolopportunity of distilling what's the
right opportunity for us to pursue.
Or Yeah, that, and then you couldpass it off to maybe someone in that
network and be like, you know what?
I know Jim over
Uh, at the end of the day, I, I'mjust the plug, I'm just the plug.

(26:03):
I, I just wanna connecttwo resources together.
That's like, so satisfying to me.
I get like, I get.
I get so much out of thatman, like just fuels me.
I don't even have to be part ofthe extended discussion, but like
connecting two individuals together.
Let them watch 'em make some magic.
Man, I, I could just do, if you canget paid for that just to be the
connector, that would be my jam.

(26:25):
I mean, you probably are in some ways.
I know I have been because I, I, Ifind myself in the same role, and
when you do it naturally, I mean,you're not expecting anything, but
you might get some more referrals.
Like that's how I'm saying, you probablygotten paid for it and you're like, boom.
All right.
That's right.
Yeah.
It's not direct.
tell me, uh, or walk me through thiswhole minimum imaginative product,

(26:46):
because this is the MIP we dubbed iton your podcast, I think, but, uh,
you, you break it down because you'rethe man going from a zero, this idea
of nothing or maybe something a littlebit of something to doing something.
Uh, I think it's a great opportunityalso to kind of just weave in modern
tooling and a little bit of aiand like, how, how does this work?

(27:07):
So let, let's give a full thought on this.
Um, I build software Cause ofa Kind builds software and web
experience for cause back missiondriven and innovating businesses.
I, I build software.
So you can imagine that I've hear,I've heard every acronym that
you could possibly imagine aboutbuilding first software or or
second beta release software, or myminimum viable product or yada yada.

(27:31):
So I went down this like rabbit holeof trying to catalog all the minimums.
You have like a minimummarketable product.
You have a minimum viable product,minimum revenue generating product.
There's all these minimums,but there was never anything
that had to do with the, the.
The minimum idea, and this is likea Steve Jobs concept like this.

(27:52):
This goes back to some of the greatestfounders and like this is a, this
is like a, a Ben Franklin concept.
It's like what is the minimumimaginative product doesn't have to
be like your minimum viable, whichwhich means it lives and breathes.
I can interact with it.
Maybe I can generate revenue,maybe it can get users, maybe it
can sell something, et cetera.

(28:13):
This has to do with.
Your shower moment, your traffic moment.
This has to do with like you're ona call and like it comes to you and
you wrote it down and like, what isthe next series of steps that you
take to see if something has a pulse?
It's not a heartbeat.
This is not really about canthis live and breathe on its own.

(28:34):
This isn't about does it haveblood supply and brain power.
This is about inception and so.
I built this whole program.
It's on YouTube shouldanybody really care about it.
It's called Inception Marketing.
And it really has to do with theearliest possible marketing motion
to prove viability for an idea.

(28:54):
And so we always talk about, especiallywith building softwares, I see a
lot of fresh founders and startupsI that are, that are bootstrapped,
and you have to be very delicatewith the bootstrapping entrepreneur.
It's typically life savings.
It could be retirement count account.
Y and, and it's somebody's emotionalpassion project that they've
been thinking about for years.
And lots of times they come with likethis big baked product, this roadmap,

(29:18):
this big design package, like this big
out Proma.
Yeah.
all this stuff.
And I'm like, Hey, the most expensivepiece of this comes in twofold.
One is building it.
The other one is marketing it,and those are your two major
expenses that you're up against.
Of course, you can bloatin any other avenue.
You can get super bloated in design.
You can get super bloated in branding,and I've seen all of those things happen.

(29:40):
But my fiduciary responsibility withouthaving a license on the line, my
fiduciary responsibility from founderto founder is to make sure that if I
build your idea, it fucking works andthat you're successful from that idea.
And so the minimum imaginative product andmy inception marketing strategy is to test

(30:01):
whether your idea has legs, has a pulse.
And so I created this formulathat gives folks the opportunity
to use modern tooling.
This is nothing outta the ordinary.
This is like, uh, go on Instagram andfigure out the keyword or hashtag strategy
for like the atomic pieces of your idea.

(30:22):
And is anybody having aconversation about that topic?
And then categorize the signal.
If nobody's having a conversationabout it, that's a red flag.
Like is it so unique andso original that there's no
consumer market available for it?
Or the opposite is it so saturated thatlike you'll just be one of a million, in
which case there's a formula for that.

(30:44):
If that's the category you want toget into, especially for CPG and
for food and for beauty and cool,like there's formulas for all that.
This can be like utilizing tooling.
So I'm, I'm a big proponent forleveraging AI for right now.
This is, this is a perfect examplefor, for, you know, your open AI
chat GPT scenario or, or Gemini orwhatever you're gonna interact with.
Grok is great for this type of thing,which is build, build me a small

(31:09):
inception product for X idea andI wanna see what it would take to
get it from, from zero to market.
Not necessarily zero to built, notto revenue, not to user adoption, not
to fundraising, like whatever yourmilestones are that you're categorizing.
To get it to the ini, the initial blip oflight, that initial pulse, is it possible.

(31:33):
And so leveraging tools, especially chatagents that can just help us to kind of
just take our gibberish thought, evena voice note or something when you're
in the car and speak that idea to life.
But the way that you interact withthe AI agent isn't, Hey, build
me a business plan for this idea.
'cause it'll just execute.
It's break.
My idea, does it exist?

(31:55):
Is there anybody else in themarket that currently has it?
Do you see any other conversations?
Is there any user feedbackfrom this problem?
Can you take a look at forumslike a Reddit, like a Quora can?
Can you take a look and see and build mea case as to why I should take the next
step and make an investment in this?
And so I'm using the tooling in a waywhich is helping me to protect myself.

(32:18):
Am I going down a path that I. Shouldanticipate failure, in which case I need
a different set of skills and body armorto protect myself along the way versus
how I built Long Island Technologists.
For example, I ran this programthrough Long Island Technologists.
I said, is there an appetite?
So I used platforms like Eventbriteto see is there a local appetite?

(32:41):
And sure enough, you find that thehistorical technology focused networking
groups that have taken place are few andfar between, but they all have sold out.
Every time one of those comeinto play, they sell out.
So hey, that's a super goodsignal for me to say, Hey, if
I create one, it will sell out.
So why don't we create one?
If it doesn't sell out,I'll cancel the event.

(33:04):
Like protect myself from the public shame,
Not that difficult to do.
Yeah.
Right, but, but sure enough,as you go through this formula
and you figure out like, Hey,okay, there's a market for this.
It's not a saturated market.
There's an opportunity here.
I could put my wrinkle on this thing.
Let's have the first one.
And so that minimum imaginationputs you down this pathway
of just proving or disprovingwhether the problem is solvable.

(33:28):
And then from there, you can thendetermine what's the next step that I
need to take to make it a viable solution.
And so this really came out of, I've heardevery acronym under the sun for people
building software and building businessesand companies and all these things.
And I was like, Hey, there hasto be something that takes place
prior to the minimum viable productbecause most people are so far

(33:50):
away from minimum viable product.
You.
You have you.
I'm sure you know, but I'llsay it just for theatrics.
You have no idea how many people comeacross my desk that wanna rebuild Uber.
Or rebuild Etsy, and I'm like, yourealize that the minimum viable product
has to be at parody of one of theseplatforms, and these are billion
dollar publicly traded companies.
So we're not talking minimum viablebecause I know what viability looks

(34:14):
like to compete in that arena.
I. We're talking minimum imaginative.
We're talking minimum marketable.
Can you get people todrive to a landing page?
We're talking minimum buyable.
Can you have your first productthat you sell for a fraction of
what you anticipate, just to seeif there's throughput in generating
revenue, and so forth and so on.
There's this whole, this wholelist of things that happen

(34:34):
before minimum viability.
See, this is why.
This is probably why you could sellso many, uh, and not sell because pe
people are inviting themselves to workwith you as, uh, an agency of your own.
That that helps bring people's, uh,web applications to life, you know,
their web properties, whatever it is.
'cause you're literally getting, you'rebuilding trust through this process.

(34:58):
It's, it's rational.
It's when you start to think aboutit, you're like, oh yeah, duh.
I should probably prove out my ideain the smallest little bit possible.
First, uh, using next to no cash.
Maybe, uh, you know, platformswe're already on, like Instagram or
Eventbrite or these free platforms.
You don't have to drop 10 a hundred k orwhatever it is to go build out your MVP.

(35:22):
and then if you really take alook at a, at a. Uh, a little
bit of a dark side of building,especially in the technology arena.
It's fashionable these daysto pursue profitability.
For the last 10, 15, 20 yearsof building software, it was
unfashionable to be profitable.
And so it depends on where you'reat in the stage of your life.

(35:45):
But if you're a bootstrappingfounder with a big idea.
You, you, I implore youto pursue profitability.
And so if the idea that you're thinkingabout sinking your life savings into does
not have a path to profitability, hold on.
Like sa, save the nest egg.
Put, put in a savings account,high yield with four point a half

(36:05):
percent interest, like compoundthe cash in some creative way.
Deploy it in a way that'll makeyour income some other way.
But if you can prove before youever spent a dollar on development
that it's not gonna work.
That's also a very soberingexperience to go through as well.
And there are not very many foundersout there that failed wisely.

(36:26):
They, they fail having done the thingwith the wisdom, having failed through
the moment, having burned the cash pile,having burned the relationship with the
engineer, having shipped it overseas andspent 160,000 where they thought it would
be at a fraction of what they spent herelocally, but they couldn't articulate the
problem or whatever, whatever, whatever.

(36:46):
So there had to be this life thatoccurs before you break ground.
And so I wish that more, um, I wishthat more service providers would take a
little bit more of a, a, a trust based,I call it fiduciary responsibility.
I, I have a financial and compliancebackground, uh, a fiduciary

(37:07):
responsibility in the variousstages that they contribute to.
For example, if I was, if I was a, a, abrand designer, if that was like my thing
and that's what people are coming tome for, I would take, I would take them
through a process that determines whethertheir brand can live in that arena or not.
And so I, I just don't know ifservice providers, there's probably

(37:29):
a panic to acquire new customers.
There probably isn't uncertaineconomically, like all sorts of
different reasons that, that preventpeople from taking that extra step.
For me.
I'm trying to build aninvestible business.
I'm trying to build a business, uh,that has incredible retention for
the talent density that we acquire.

(37:49):
I'm trying to build a businessthat has a portfolio of true,
full on success stories.
I'm trying to build my acceleratorinto an incubator that eventually can
feed the venture capital communityand private equity community.
So my goals of building this businessare a little bit different than just
taking a mon, taking the money andrunning and being a little bit, you
know, negligent of somebody's goals.

(38:10):
I have a responsibility to me, myteam and Cause of a Kind as a brand
to make sure that the partners thatwe bring on a, have an appetite
for the type of model that we have.
Because I'm di I'm very different from,from most businesses that we come across
in the way that we engage, but also like.
Is the ride appropriate?
Is the mission there?
Is it a cause back focused business?

(38:32):
Are they innovating appropriately?
Do they have realistic expectations ofwhat the technology can do for them?
Is the timeline practical?
And, and so forth.
And so my sales process is more of adisqualification experience than it
is trying to sell you on something.
That's trust based right there.
And like, who doesn't wantto have, who doesn't wanna
engage with someone like that?

(38:53):
And you're, it's not gonna be aquick, quick in, out kind of project.
You're, you're in it for the lifeof that relationship, ideally.
I mean, shouldn't we all,like we're gonna Yeah.
It goes for any kindarelationship in person too.
So like extend that here in business.
And I freaking love it.
Justin.
Um, I mean this, the whole, the wholeprocess, what you just described

(39:15):
can be applied in so many ways.
Both ai, not ai, but like what you said,there's so many tools where you can take
what you just said to chat t to, you know,you could vibe code, even though vibe code
is riddled with all sorts of issues too.
But it can get an ideaout at least, you know,
just don't think that'sgonna be your go-to market
strategy against Lyft or Uber.

(39:36):
But, um,
Right, right, right.
Right.
But, uh, dude, I mean the, you gotmy brain spinning in so many ways
and, um, I just, I just love the,the perspective you bring, man.
So
Thanks, Joe.
I wanna wrap it up right here, but,uh, what is, I guess, what's one
always kind of thinking like, what's,what are you most excited for in, I

(39:56):
mean, obviously I think I know on apersonal level what you're excited for.
Like maybe you can, you can say thattoo, but anything else, like in terms of.
Just what we talked about, like your Yeah.
Growth.
I, I would say in your next like fiveyears, how do you think you're gonna
evolve into a whole different version ofyou, you know, just in, I don't know, it's

(40:16):
probably 10.0 at this point or, or beyond.
Anything else?
Anything on your radar you thinkyou're gonna do to uplevel?
I'll, I'll, I'll go as far as, I havenever said my daughter's name out loud.
I'm expecting a daughter in the next threeweeks, which is an interesting, um, it's
an interesting measurement of time, right.

(40:37):
So like my, I, I have a son,he's four, what I've accomplished
in the last four years.
He was born with $4 and 7cents in my bank account.
And like I was not sure if wewere coming or going or what
the hell the situation was.
And so what has been accomplished over thelast four years is a, a true testament.
And I heard a very interesting, um,quote, probably from, from Instagram,

(41:01):
I think it was either LinkedIn orInstagram, and it was an image.
And it said on the day you were born, atree was planted somewhere in the world.
And that tree has been growing alongsideof you for your entire journey.
And so I'll, I'll dedicatethis episode to my daughter.
Her name will be Story True Abrams.
And you know, we had a little, uh, uh,we had a short conversation before this
podcast of, of our journey and tryingto achieve story, and it has been a

(41:25):
hell of a story, and maybe one day I'llrecord it, so I'll dedicate this to her.
But the reason why I bring thisup is because I will use her as
the next measurement of time.
For the next four years, and I justsay four years because my son is
four in the next couple of weeks.
And like I can fully measure the successand all the tribulations and everything
that's happened over the last four years.

(41:46):
I don't know what's gonna happen.
But I do have hopes, and I don't evennecessarily label them as goals, but I,
I do have hopes and their, their hopesfor me and my nuclear family of course,
but it's really hopes for my impact.
And so I, I. I was fortunate enough tolisten to a presentation not too long
ago at the Long Island TechnologistsMeetup, where the presentation was

(42:10):
about, um, what are the two words?
If you had to summarize your personalbrand into two words, what would it be?
And shout out to Carolina Luna and my homegirl, and she gave an amazing presentation
on distilling your personal brand.
And if you have one second with somebody,what do you tell them is your purpose?
And so for me, I distilled mytwo words into drive impact.

(42:31):
And so I don't really knowwhat I'm gonna get myself into.
I'm a chronic entrepreneur.
We didn't really getinto my seven generations
No, I know.
story, but I'm a chronic entrepreneur.
Um, I run multiple businesses at thispoint, so in various stages of, of, of,
of, uh, in various stages of, of maturity.
And so my entire goal comes backto how we kind of started this

(42:54):
conversation, which is about increasingmy own surface area for luck.
But I don't want to do that.
Without knowing that what I am doingwith my time is driving impact to others.
And so this comes back to areal childhood pursuit of mine.
Like when I was four years old, likemy kid, I wanted to be a doctor.
I went to medical school or tried togo to medical school and you know,

(43:17):
my old, my whole pursuit was forpatient care and not so much patient
care, but family care and, and beinga really stable bedside opportunity
for folks that are in challenging.
Moments of their life.
And so I've carried that allthroughout my experience and it's
what's made me a very good ambassadorfrom a client services perspective

(43:38):
for the companies that I work for.
It's what makes me a trustedadvisor through a sales process.
It's what allows me to be asuccessful entrepreneur and pursue
new businesses and be a great partnerfor strangers that come along my way.
And so my, my real goal and myhope and what's gonna happen
for the next couple of years.
Probably a lot of compoundingof what currently is going on.

(43:59):
A lot of growth.
You inspire the heck outta me, man.
Like your, your podcast Hustle and Flowchart, the volume of, of, of episodes that
you've recorded, the extent of the networkpeople that you're a household memory for.
You know, I, I believe that weare, are chronicling with, with our
podcast the journey of our life.
And so I'm super bullish and passionateabout my own podcast and I can't wait.

(44:24):
For some of the folks that I emulate,you know, like I have this vision of
having Steven Bartlett, diary of a CEOaren't strictly from nowhere and like
stand toe to toe with a titan and like,I just like, man, the, the, the, the
opportunity to drive impact to people.
Those are the, those are the typesof guys like the, you, you could

(44:47):
be a chronic entrepreneur and haveyour hat in 50 different things.
You can have a full onfamily and lifestyle.
You can have a public forum where.
You're not only finding the blend ofcreativity, but also of, of philanthropy
and activity and meaning in this life.
And so, so my goal is to, you know,get to the end and look back and

(45:07):
be like, yo, that kid killed it.
You didn't leave anything out there, man.
You, you did it all, man.
Uh, it's gonna happen.
You'll have Steven on andwe're gonna keep chronicling
by the way, like, yes, youwill strictly from nowhere.
Go check out Justin's podcast.
It's over at cause of a kind.com.
And, and seriously, man, I, I loveeverything you bring to the table

(45:29):
and you literally bring it all tothe table, wear it on your sleeve.
So I appreciate you for being youhere and literally everywhere.
So,
I have one version I talked to,I talked to my wife about this.
I got one version.
Come and meet me,
It's a great version, man.
So appreciate you, man.
And you're gonna be meetingstory very soon too.

(45:50):
I'm stoked
Thank you so much, man.
You're a blessing to me.
I, I wish you forwardto extraordinary, man.
Thank you so much.

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