January 28, 2025 • 49 mins
In the most recent episode of Hustle and Flowchart, we welcomed Robert Glazer to talk about his new book, "Rethinking Two Weeks' Notice," and related themes surrounding business, leadership, and personal core values. Our conversation ranged from the logistics of employment transitions to the importance of understanding oneself to be a better leader. We also touched on hot topics like remote work, AI technology, and setting the right foundation for team communication. Let's dive into the key points covered in this insightful episode.
Transitioning Away from the 2-Week Notice Concept
Robert explains that the traditional 2-week notice is outdated and not practical for employers or employees. The idea is rooted in respecting and responsibly communicating an employee's departure, but it often falls short in practice. Instead, Robert proposes an "Open Transition Program," where employees can be transparent about their intentions to leave early on, allowing both parties to make smoother transitions. This program encourages honest conversations, giving employers time to find replacements and providing employees an opportunity to leave without burning bridges.
Robert addresses common objections, such as the fear that employees who announce their departure might become disengaged or untrustworthy. He argues that these concerns are mitigated by having real conversations early. If employees are transparent about their feelings and plans, it can actually foster a more trusting and supportive environment. This proactive approach can help companies avoid the sudden upheaval that often comes with the last-minute two-week notice.
Key Points and Takeaways:
- The traditional 2-week notice is not effective in today’s employment landscape.
- Open Transition Programs encourage transparency and smoother transitions.
- Early, honest conversations can prevent problems and foster trust.
Personal Core Values and Their Impact on Leadership
Robert spoke about his upcoming book focused on personal core values, which he describes as the ultimate decision-making tool. He emphasizes that leaders need to understand their own core values to align their actions and decisions with them, thus becoming more authentic and efficient leaders. This can significantly impact how they run their businesses, interact with their teams, and make decisions under pressure.
Personal core values stem from deep-rooted experiences and feelings, often linked to one's childhood. Robert shared that understanding these values can provide clarity about past career choices and life decisions. It also helps in making future decisions that are more aligned with one's true self, leading to greater job satisfaction and effectiveness as a leader.
Key Points and Takeaways:
- Personal core values guide decision-making and leadership style.
- Understanding one's values can lead to better career and life decisions.
- Leaders need to be authentic and aligned with their core values.
The Importance of Open Communication in Teams
Robert and I discussed methods to foster open communication within teams. Open and honest dialogue can build a trusting environment. For instance, teams can incorporate exercises like sharing highs and lows or providing direct yet kind feedback. Such practices encourage vulnerability and the sharing of personal experiences, which can strengthen team cohesion and collaboration.
One effective method Robert shared was initiating meetings with open-ended questions like "How's it going?" rather than direct questions about work. This can help uncover underlying issues affecting performance, whether they are personal or professional. Leaders should model this behavior to set the tone for the rest of the team.
Key Points and Takeaways:
- Open communication builds trust within...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
The traditional two weeknotice is killing companies.
(00:03):
But it's not for thereason you think.
So today I have RobertGlazer on the podcast.
He's the founder of a globalmarketing empire and a wall
street journal bestselling author.
He's revealing today that thisrespectful practice of giving two
weeks to leave a company like anemployee or anyone on your team.
(00:24):
That it's actually destroyingworkplace relationships and
companies are losing a ton ofmoney because of lost productivity.
And it's actually somethingEuropeans, think we're pretty nuts
for keeping this, this ritual.
So, uh, the, the whole thing isthat there's a counter-intuitive
approach that Robert's been teachingand implementing in his company
(00:47):
and others around the world.
And you gotta hear what it is inthe way that he goes about it.
So you're not in this situation andyou save a bunch of money and time
and help people out in the process.
So let's get into it.
Chat with Mr.
Robert Glazer.
All right, Robert, we're doing this.
I'm happy.
(01:07):
We made the time.
We got to think, uh, you know,good old friend, Charles Bird
for making this happen, superconnector, got to shout him out,
you know, uh, how you doing today?
I know you're out in
I'm, I'm good.
We're, uh, we're, we're, we'regetting close to, you know, the
holiday break, which is alwaysmy favorite time of year, because
it's the one time where when Ibreak, the world is also breaking
(01:29):
and I don't get any emails.
So
Do you normally breakat that time of year?
that's
There's plenty of times whereyou can take a week off and
you come back to 400 emails.
I, my email goes outto almost nothing over
Christmas week, so I love it.
Love it.
Well, you probably have thesystem you've dialed that in.
I'm sure, you know, over the years,well, we got connected, uh, you
know, from Charles saying, you know,Charles has been on the podcast
(01:52):
before, and the guy always selectsgreat people that I should know,
and then I should share with others.
And.
He, he introduced us because of thisbook that, that just got released
recently called rethinking the twoweek re Rethinking Two Weeks Notice.
And you know, it's done really well.
And it was immediately a concept.
(02:12):
I was like, wait, yeah, the twoweek notice concept, like we've
all experienced it in some way,
we've all been on one side of it.
In fact, the book starts with,imagine you, there's an, I won't get
this correct, but you know, you're,you're sitting in your office
working, your employee comes in,they close the door and they say,
Hey Jody, have a, have a minute.
And like, you're like,you're hard to say.
And everyone's beenthrough that conversation.
(02:33):
Like, you know what it's like?
And it never feels good eitherway, either side of the table, you
know, So why, I mean,yeah, two weeks.
It's so, cause ever since I startedto job, you had a job at Burger
King back in the day, two weeknotice, you know, I knew that when
I was moving on up, got to givethat two weeks, but it's like,
The why is interesting.
I've studied thispretty extensively.
(02:55):
Like most people, evenEuropeans, they don't understand.
Like it's not a real thing.
Like you are an employmentat will in the U S you
can leave at any time.
You can leave on one minute'snotice somewhere along the
way it became known as sortof the respectful, responsible
thing to give two weeks notice.
There are plenty and managers andleaders out there, you know, if
(03:16):
they have a, Number two, and they'veworked with them for five years.
Like that doesn't feel respectfulor helpful or anything.
So there's, and then there'speople in Europe who are
like, I don't understand.
We have to give three monthsnotice and it's statutory.
It's an on both sides.
So it's been around for a while.
The problem is, I'm alwaysfascinated by cognitive dissonance.
(03:36):
You know, our ability tohold two different things in
our head at the same time.
We know that we're not in amarket of lifetime employment
on the side of our brain.
We know there's no pensions.
People aren't going to work forour company for 10 or 15 years.
If you go through a list of thebest companies in America, maybe
the average 10 years, two tothree years, given that the bulk
of their employees are probablyin their twenties and thirties.
So, so we intuitively know thatwhen people go to leave, we
(03:59):
act more like it's a marriage.
Breakup than it is like the endof a sports contract, which is
really more what it should be like.
And so you have this hiding andlying and doctor appointments
because people don't knowany other way to do it.
Uh, that's just sort ofwhat they were told by their
forefathers and mothers.
Yeah, that's a good point.
(04:20):
And it's like you relatethis to a, it should be
more like a sports contract.
It's usually two tothree year deals ish.
And by the way, theyshould be evaluated, right?
Like we'd all be better ifyou signed a two year deal
and it's coming to the end.
I'm like, Joe, do Iwant to resign this?
Are you getting a raise?
Are you getting a pay cut?
What, you know, do,do, is it time to just.
Like we got a rookie and we wantto try them, you know, instead.
(04:42):
So, but we're acting morelike it's a marriage.
Uh, and so, you know, it is,which is not the right analogy.
So, so it's, it, it'd be theequivalent of if I said someone
just walked in your relationship,let me not a marriage.
You're dating someone.
They're like, look, I'mmoving in two weeks.
I'm moving in with someone newand I'm going to a different city.
Like that's not goingto feel so good.
(05:03):
No.
Yeah.
Like, what did I miss?
Why did we not
In that context, people arelike, yeah, that's ridiculous.
I'm like, it's not that differentthan like, I've been working
for you and smiling every dayand I've been securing a new
job for six months, right?
It's not that the only differenceis the expectation, right?
That, that, so
Well, so how, howdo you change that?
Like, you know, there,there's the two week concept.
(05:26):
So we got that andit's on both sides.
So I guess as someone beingthe employer or the higher,
or, you know, the one withthe business, um, yeah.
what's what's the
So it's on, the onus ison the, there's a lot of
disclaimers with this book.
The first disclaimer is you don'tread this book and go into your,
you know, company that fires peopleevery time they say they're unhappy
and say, look, I want to talk.
(05:46):
I'm a little unhappy.
Like, so this is, this isreally the, the employer needs
to say, we're changing thestigma around how people leave.
And I advocate for thisconcept called open
transition programs where.
Like when you want to leave,you can go through a period of
transition again, back to thesports analogy, someone's finishing
their free agent contract and youknow, they're not signing with you.
(06:09):
They still play thegame and they show up.
They haven't signed the newcontract yet, but like they're
an adult, like they, you know,they're not tanking at the end.
They, you know, there'srepercussions to that.
So this notion of, Hey,you can start a discussion.
It is totally safe.
And we said that to our employeeswhen we started the program.
If you want to talk about.
I'm not feeling great about this.
I want to do something different.
Can I explore a different role?
I'm not saying, you know,we'll go on forever.
(06:32):
Like, but, but, but we are not goingto walk you to the door tomorrow.
And actually with that information,we have a lot better chance
of creating a better outcome.
We might figure outit's not solvable.
And so you get to start, golooking for your next job
and winding down this job.
And we kind of do arec and start hiring.
And if you're in a professionalservices business, I always like to
double click on this cause we are.
(06:53):
And you have a lot of service forlike, what's the thing that annoys
you the most about a service firm?
What's the thing that makes youwant to usually fire them the most
when you have, you know, on the
flip
I mean, it's gotta be communicationis one of the biggest things.
If there's not good communication,
I'm like,
and what about when the personyou love your account manager like
suddenly is gone like two weeks
later
That's even more, that's worse.
(07:14):
Trust,
well, yeah, so the numberone thing people hate is when
they're the person they'redealing with like It's constantly
leaving and moving, right?
And this is how itplays out in reality.
If Joe is at my company and givestwo weeks notice and the client
loves him, I have to go in thereand Joe has to be like, look, I'm
actually leaving in two weeks.
You're going to have a new manager.
I don't know who it is.
(07:34):
Someone you don't know is goingto get on the phone with you
or otherwise, like not good.
Joe enters our open transitionprogram because he started
a conversation or we starteda conversation saying, Joe,
your performance has beenlike really bad for a while.
Like Do you want todo the work on this?
Do you want to be doing something?
And Joe says, you know what?
I really just don't want to bedoing sales or account management.
Can you, can you, can I,can I sort of start the
(07:55):
process of, uh, of leaving?
Well, what would happen was, youknow, we'd, we'd grab Sarah or
hire Sarah and we'd start bringingSarah to the first four or five
meetings and slowly Sarah would takeover all the calls and build the
reporter client and then somewherein six weeks, Joe's going to say to
the client, you know, I'm actuallygoing to be leaving in a couple
of weeks and you've got to knowSarah and she's going to take over.
That's a totally different.
(08:16):
Experience for the client,
So it's kind of like you're shat.
Yeah.
There's communication happeningwell in advance and it's, and
it's, it's kind of an expectationof the company is that this
is how we operate, right?
Yeah, and one of the objections, Ihave a whole chapter on objection
handling in this objection tome, like we'll be like, this
won't work and it won't work.
Like, so one of them is, look, wecan't have this person stay and
(08:38):
work like they're already toxic andit's already a mess and otherwise.
And I would say that, yes,that could be the case.
But, but for this person,but what the, the yeah.
Let's say, like, I'm firing Joe.
Let's pick on Joe.
I'm firing Joe today in December.
We're recording this probablyaround January, like, and we're
(08:58):
all pissed at each other now.
The early signs of the problem withthis were probably in March, right?
And Joe's a little disengaged.
His work isn't great.
I could put Joe on a pip, orwhat I'm advocating for is like
real conversations where themanager sits down like, Joe,
Your work's been like, likedefinitely below par recently.
(09:19):
You kind of bit likewhat, what's going on?
And they have the psychologicalsafety to do that.
And they have their relationship.
And I talk about, if youdig, this is called digging
to the root in the book.
And if you dig to the root,there's usually three.
There's three common routes, likethings that the employee needs to
change, things that the employercan change if they want to, and
things that are not going to change.
So Joe might say to thisconversation, You know what?
(09:41):
I lost my child care andI've been like exhausted
and stressed and I can make.
Okay, well, now I know this like.
Let's try to work around it.
You're gonna have to fix this.
You're gonna have to getchild care and do the work.
But we can we canmess with your hours.
And like, I understand that thisis sort of an external thing
that's impacting your work, right?
Joe might come in and say, Look,I couple things he could say.
(10:04):
I transferred.
Into sales last year andI really don't love it.
I'd like to go back to marketing orlook, I know the last three people
you hired or paid more than me.
And I was promised a raiseand this like months ago.
And so I'm just really frustrated.
And the company might be like,Oh yeah, we screwed this up.
Like Joe missed the cycle.
And so we fixed that.
Right.
So now in these first twocases, like we fixed their
(10:24):
different problems though.
We tend to.
The performance improvement planis like giving a Tylenol that
everyone has a headache when likeone person might be dehydrated.
One might be allergic to gluten andone might have a brain tumor, right?
There are different sourcereasons that they have a headache.
So in this first one, Ifigured out an external thing.
That's the problem.
(10:44):
We worked on it.
The second one is an internal or Joemight say, look, I'm missing office
and this is a remote only company.
And I might say, Joe, We're notopening offices anytime soon.
So why don't we help you go workat a company that has offices?
So Joe's misperformance was man,it was showing up in the results,
but like why it's happening plays abig part on whether I could, Joe's
(11:05):
gone from green to yellow, like,can I get him back to green either
on his way internally or out thedoor once he's on like red, red
and cause if I let this go on, thenlet's say I never found out that it
was your childcare, then I'm like,Yelling at you and get your lazy.
And then you're like, I mean,then like, by then we just
get to a point where thewhole thing is unrecoverable.
(11:27):
The whole basis of this programis shifting that timeline
way earlier to the earlywarning detection systems.
And you'd be surprised how manytimes a real conversation, someone's
like, look, I just don't wantto be in client service anymore.
And you're like, that's okay.
So why don't you startgoing to looking for a job
elsewhere and we'll startlooking for your replacement.
Yeah.
(11:47):
So what, how, how earlyis too early, you know, to
have these conversationsor at least like set the,
I think you should setthis as you hire people.
Like I think not like, but youshould, as you hire people,
you should, um, you shouldsay, look, this is the way
people leave our organization.
By the way, it makes it like, ifthey made a mistake, they're going
to feel a lot better that like,there's a good way out of this.
(12:09):
So.
When you want to leave, this ishow you leave, you know, just
so you know, and we have thisprogram when you see a change in
performance or performance isn'tbeing met, you should try to dig
in also just in regular check ins.
Like, how's it going?
Are you happy?
You're liking going to do engage.
And look, a lot of people willsay one thing, but if you're
good manager and good, youwill notice that their facial
(12:30):
expression, or have you everasked someone about a reference?
And like, Joe, what doyou think about Steve?
And they're like, Uh, andI'm like, you don't have
to answer the question.
I, I, I, I'm good.
I got it.
Like, whatever's coming outis not a raving endorsement.
Right.
So you say someone like, how's work?
Are you liking it?
Are you engaged in like, well,you know, and so like, that's
worth digging in because that'sprobably the early signs of a,
(12:52):
uh, of a, of a bigger problem.
Yeah.
Well, I was just creepingon your elevate podcast.
I saw you had RobertCialdini on there.
I had him on my show years ago now.
Awesome.
But
my, like 15 books on my deskover here that has sort of
been my like mainstay books.
sent me one of them and signed it.
I was like, ah, this is cool.
(13:13):
Uh, but I'm thinking of just thepsychological part right there.
It's like, there's differentthings that you want to pick up
on in conversation, in words, intonality, in body language, you
know, it's like, and a lot of usare remote, so I'm sure it gets a
little tough, you know, with thiskind of remote work culture that
I believe you built your companies
we're we're remote.
(13:34):
And look, this goesto my one and one.
So I the way I open a lot of thingsis like, hey, like, how's it going?
And that's a very open question.
That's not how's work or, youknow, and a lot of times like I get
an answer like, You know, sucks.
I'm fighting with my ex wifeagain, and someone who's going
through, and that's what theywant to talk about for 10 minutes.
(13:54):
And so like, we do that.
So these open ended questions giveyou, and then I might have thought
that this person was disengagedand not paying attention this week
or elsewhere, but really like,they just have a personal thing
going on that's like, In their way.
And maybe I couldhelp them with that.
And then so then maybelike they're a little more
engaged it at work, right?
(14:15):
And obviously, like, if that's goingon every day, that's a different
Yes,
I, I mentioned before, I'm a bigstudent and fan of, I don't know,
fan of, but like, I'm alwayslooking, I just think cognitive
dissonance is, is so interesting,causes so many problems.
And one of the core, I haven't, it'sa spinoff of cognitive dissonance.
I haven't named this principleyet, but I'd like some psychologist
(14:36):
to do it for me is that.
Like this is theproblem managers have.
So Joe's not, we'llkeep picking on Joe.
Cause it's easy.
Joe's on my team and Joe's like areally good guy and he's on my sales
team, but he's at 50 percent ofquota for four quarters in a row.
Right.
And so I'm like, I gotto do a bad thing to Joe.
Like Joe's like, Joe'sgot to go, but I like Joe.
(14:56):
And so this brain does notknow what to do with this.
So it has to solve the dissonance.
So the easiest pathto solve it is like.
I'm going to make Joe out to bea bad person so that when I do a
bad thing, I'm the good person.
So I start beinglike, Oh, Joe's lazy.
He's not trying.
I've given him chances.
He's whatever.
So when I finally fired Joe,I'm like Joe deserved it.
And I'm now I'm disrespectful.
(15:18):
And now Joe's pissedand now he sues me.
And that's why we end up that the.
You could flip it anddo it the other way.
You don't have to leaning intothe relationships and having high
standards aren't mutually exclusive.
I can be like, Joe, love you.
Like, but the sales thingobjectively isn't working.
We can see the numbers.
You're the lowest rep on here.
Like, what do you want to do?
(15:39):
Do you want to go to the salestraining and do the work?
And like, I can give youa quarter or two to like,
Get up to everyone else.
But after that, my hands are tied.
Or like, do you wantto do something else?
And should we look forinternal or external?
Right?
Like that's the opportunity.
And if you've never triedone of these conversations,
they're actually like, peopledon't want to do a bad job.
(15:59):
They know when they'redoing a bad job.
Like they're actuallyreally refreshing
versus the normal process.
Yeah, it's like a check in, right?
Like, if you do these constant checkins, I do it with my team, you know.
Pure.
check in.
Right.
It's not a perfunctory one.
Yeah.
Well, and I think that's thething is, is inherently we
have this work relationship.
(16:19):
So we feel like we haveto, Oh, how's it going?
Well, I got to talk about work.
You know, it's like, I'm notgoing to bring up everything
about my family or kids or, youknow, haven't been sleeping.
Cause I got a one year old at home.
So,
Right.
I mean, that may be the, that may bethe source of your poor performance.
Right.
That right now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's, it's interesting.
And the cognitivedissonance is a real thing.
(16:41):
Especially like if there is aproblem that happens, we can choose
to, you know, go down the pathof how did, how did this happen?
Yeah.
Like
You're trying to close the gap.
What your brain is always doingis it can't hold these two
incongruent things at the same time.
So it has to close the gap.
So it's either like, I'mgoing to do a bad thing.
(17:01):
So you're a bad person.
I'm actually saying, let'slean it the other way.
Like I'm a good person.
So, but, but I, I also,because I'm a good person, I
can't let Joe continue to failand let down the whole team.
So I'm going to try to likelean into the relationship and
see if we can get a better.
Cause Joe's a, Joe's a goodguy and he's trying, but it's
also not fair to let him suck.
(17:22):
Like, you
Yeah, And there's got tobe a different shift or
something to find the root.
Of course, it sounds like digto the root, which I think is a
super cool thing, because eitheron the employee, the employer,
or you just can't change it.
But you might as welltalk about it, right?
exactly.
Yeah.
and you mentioned safety, becausewith this whole thing, and I know a
root human need for all of us is asense of safety wherever we're at.
(17:46):
Right.
With this discussion, to me, itseems like that breeds safety
or at least this feeling oftrust within an organization.
Yeah.
If you start having theseconversations and people find out
that like, Oh, like, There's nonegative consequence to it, right?
I mean, psychological safety isjust is it's used a lot these days.
(18:07):
But like the definition forme is it's trusted scale.
So if you and I have trust and aone on one thing, I walk into a team
and I just sense that there's trust.
I can speak truth to power.
I can say, Joe, like, Ithink that's a terrible idea.
We're gonna lose our moneyand like no one's gonna know.
Be like, Oh my God, you can'tsay that in front of him.
Like, yeah, I, I, I, Ialways hate to say this.
(18:27):
I wish I had a better line, but,but having, it's a little like
the line on pornography wheresomeone says, I can't define
it, but I know it when I see it.
Like I've been in company, youjust see it in companies that have
psychological safety, you, you,you can see it, you can feel it.
But it's very hard to,like, put your finger on it.
Is it like a culture thing?
Or is it more than that?
(18:48):
yeah, it's part of the culture.
I think it's the coretenet of good cultures.
Um, but I think the twobiggest components are, like,
vulnerability and feedbackare pretty normalized, right?
I was, I was, I was Asked to give akeynote speak to peach to a company
for their leadership offsite.
And they invited me to jointhe meeting in the morning
before I was speaking.
And so they all went around and theydid highs and lows, uh, you know,
(19:11):
and there was like a lot of tearsand people sharing like some pretty
deep personal lows that they had.
And that was sortof my first tip off.
And then the second time they dida, Hey, what are the elephants
in the room starting our offsite?
And people said stuff and theCEO was right there and they
were pretty, you know, honest.
I was like, God, this team'sgoing to have no problem.
Um, With their planning.
And then what they were doinglater on was trying to do five and
(19:33):
10 year organizational planning.
And so to do that, you had toknow, and they were like, look,
we're not sure that we're allgoing to be in these seats.
You know, we're goingto plan out the seats.
And they went around and askedpeople like, Joe, how long do you
see yourself wanting to do this?
And you're like, I see myselfhere another, like Five years.
Someone's like 10 years.
So they were even being honestat like how long they wanted
to be at the company, but theyneeded that for the planning.
(19:54):
And it was not a surprise to meafter watching that opening in
the morning that when you got intothe other stuff that they had no
problem having these conversations,
That's cool.
Yeah.
That's just those open, like yousaid, vulnerable conversations
that welcomes feedback and openquestions, you know, and it's not
like it's one, one sided either.
(20:14):
Those are the two ways.
The Joe Hari window is this concept.
Those are the two ways you can.
Create more vulnerability, right?
Is is to be accepting of feedbackand showing that like, give me the
feedback and it'd be sharing andmore vulnerable because it's sort
of like it opens up the windows ofwhat other people know about you and
what you sort of know about them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Is there, um, is there aprocess or protocol you'd
(20:37):
recommend people to follow?
Like that sounds like, youknow, in that team's meeting,
it was like maybe part of theirweekly meeting, for instance.
I mean, yes.
And I talked about that.
You can add simple questions intocheck ins like again, high and low.
What was, what was the bigthing from the weekend?
And the, but the key thing is thatthe leader always goes first and
(20:58):
whatever the leader says, we'llset the tone for the whole meeting.
I was with a facilitatoryears ago who showed us this.
He took six people in our groupand he went, I'm going to watch
my, I'm going to do an exercise.
And he said, all right, we'reall going to do something.
We don't know about each other.
And he's like, I was a fiddle playergrowing up and everyone went around.
And the second time he was like,My ex, my stepdad was a raging
(21:18):
alcoholic and I spent most ofmy childhood at night trying to
figure out who he was going tohit and who I had to distract.
And you know, otherwise, andthen everyone, he didn't, then
everyone went around again, liketotally different level of stories.
Right.
So, you know, we've, we've donethat even in a quarterly meeting,
we were like, what's something thatlike, You would like a mulligan
(21:40):
on which is a golf term for doover, you know, from last quarter.
And if a leader steps in there,it's like, man, I just blew the
call with this partner because Iwas unprepared and I rushed into
it and retrospect like that islike so empowering for than other
people to Share similar stories.
So it's just these little,look, you can do offsite
(22:00):
stuff and trust building.
Maybe you can introduce theselittle personal segments into
your regular calls and meetings.
That's, that's, that'sone way to do that.
I'm just thinking of like how thatthat changes everything, just all
communication, even not just within,you know, the leaders there, but
within the community are the team
Yeah.
I mean, you know, that thatjust fosters just a sense of
(22:23):
trust with everyone, you know,
I, I don't, I don't love usingexamples of myself, but I was
doing this core value discovery.
and look, I, I'm thefounder of the company.
I'm not as involved anymore, but Ido a lot of our leadership training.
So these are a lot of ournew up and coming employees.
They haven't met me before in like.
I understand, like I think I'ma kind of a normal, approachable
person, but it's intimidating.
It's like the founder ofthe company and whatever.
(22:44):
And when, when I do this session andI'm talking about, look, when we're
doing this core value stuff, you'vegotta think about your childhood and
things that were formative for you.
They, because in 99% ofcases, like it, it, it's
why this is a value for you.
And I'm like, here's my deal.
Like I was a.
Huge underachiever.
It was super embarrassing for me.
So I solved that bybeing an overachiever.
(23:06):
It created these othersets of problems.
And this is kind of why,you know, this is important
to me in these values.
And I think, like, I mean,I've told that so many times,
like, I don't even I don'teven tell you to people.
I don't know.
At this point, I think it'spretty surprising for people.
And then the stuff that theyshared was was I actually could
really help like two people sharedstories about pretty formative
(23:29):
childhood experience that weredefinitive to their values and
showed up in their leadership.
Like you just can't havethat kind of experience.
And I, I was able toshow them how it helped.
It how it influenced theirleadership style and, and why
it wasn't a good or a bad, butlike they had to understand that
because it was really gonna, and,and that was helpful for them.
(23:50):
But had I not set the tablefor that, they probably
wouldn't have shared that andI couldn't have helped them.
And so that's sort ofhow it, how it works.
I wasn't looking touse it against them.
I was looking to.
To help them, you know, with it.
Uh huh.
Well, especially if, well, for onewith your company, if you're not
the one leading the day to day,you want to have other leaders or
(24:10):
at least people that are conveyingthat sense of, uh, you know,
culture, trust, communicationthat you're after anyway,
Yeah, exactly.
and.
you mentioned the whole good values.
Like I know you're, you're workingon a whole, another book and you
have multiple books out there.
So definitely go,
go
I love, what I lack in quality, Imake up in quantity, so that's fine.
It's okay.
You're getting it done.
(24:31):
So like personal goals, core values,uh, not personal goals, but personal
core values make up, like you justsaid, leadership, potential, or,
or at least qualities and ways thatpeople interact with each other.
Um, I guess help me define that,like the concept around that.
And cause this definitelyrelates to what we've been
Yeah.
A lot of people are like,look, I have values, but
(24:52):
they can't name them.
Right.
And so if you can't name them,you probably know when they're
broken, you know, when you're inflow, you, you can feel them my,
my, the way I say is like, look,if I took a really nice sports
car and I drove it through atunnel and the tunnel had walls
and a yellow line, I turn off.
The yellow line isyour, is your values.
(25:13):
So you're going to, the car isgoing to drift past the yellow line.
It's going to hit the wall.
You're going to go,Oh, you know, bad.
We're going to go to the middle.
I'm going to hit the other wall.
I'm probably going to get out theother side, but that car is going
to be like banged up as hell.
Right?
If you turn on the lightsand I see where the yellow
lines are, like I stay.
In the right lane.
And so to me, like personal corevalues are just the fundamental
(25:33):
best decision making toolthat you have in your life.
And I talk about the bigthree of your vocation, your
community and your relationship.
And if you don't make thosedecisions in a way that's aligned
with your values, they have avery low chance of working out.
So when we're when we're trying tosort of do leadership development,
one of my things like, Look,you got to understand this was
(25:54):
this was the unlock for me.
Um, That you are going to be thebest leader if you are authentic
and you got to understand yourselfand you got to understand the
strengths and weaknesses thatyou bring to the table and, and
you're not changing, but there'sa lot of baggage there and I'm,
and I can't give you the numberof examples like of someone like
there are leaders for whom trust isparamount and like their core value
(26:14):
is relationships based on trust.
If I look at those people andI say, let me ask you, and I,
when I, once we do the work andwe figure out that their value
or their why is trust, does thatYour focus on trust come from
a violation of trust somewherein your life in your childhood
and they don't have to answer.
I don't say I won'task you what it is.
And normally the tear that's rollingout of the eye or the, you know,
(26:37):
facial like tells me that thereis some deep pain and they're
not going to change that, right?
Because over years they'vehad a small group of friends.
It's hard to get in thecircle or otherwise.
So that it can workfor you as a leader.
If you say, Hey, trust is reallyimportant to me on my team.
Um, you know, if you missmeetings, if you show up late,
if I can't find you, these areall things that lose trust.
The promise for that leader,when that trust happens or those
(27:01):
things that it's triggering likethat nuclear, like trust is kind
of a life and death thing becausethe last thing that happened is.
My dad left or whatever, whateverit was that sort of did that.
So it can be a pro, it can be a con.
It all depends on if you know it.
What, what, what's fascinatingis these trust leaders that
we've had a few of them overtime, they were basically like
half their team was in jail.
(27:22):
The key was thrown out.
Like they had no idea, like,but when you really act, they're
like, yeah, like, and you canhear it from the HR department.
They were like, this person's alwaysjust so hot or cold on people.
And they're like, Irredeemableor they love them too much and
like that's the problem like itcan really work for them But to
work for them they have to know itand they have to articulate it So
(27:44):
their team's like look if I can'tfind you if you're late for things
or whatever Like that is kind ofirrecoverable for me as a leader So
I'm just telling you that up frontso that we know how to work together
Ooh, that's huge, man.
I can't even, I doubt most peopleare approaching things that way with
No, no, this is this is Look,this is seriously deep work.
(28:04):
It is the most impactfulthing I've ever did.
I love doing it with people andleaders because I think when they
get it, they tend to have this likeJust like explosion of, they start
looking back at their whole lifeand suddenly everything makes sense.
Why I hated that job, why thatrelationship didn't work out.
Like, like again, theywere, they were that car
(28:25):
that was hitting the wall.
You know, the feeling of drivingin the lane, but when you have
these four things in front ofyou that says like, You know,
respect and authenticity areincredibly important to me.
Long term orientation,like making things better.
Like you're able to lookand be like, you know what?
They're asking me to do a jobwhere it's a short term job.
(28:45):
I'm not going to be ableto make anything better.
It's transactional, not relational.
Like this is going to suck for me.
Like, like this is not,
this is not going to work for me.
In fact, when I have peopledo that backwards looking lens
afterwards and like, what's theworst job, worst boss, they're able
to almost look and be like, look,this was, This was everything I
hate at my, you know, at my core.
(29:06):
Yeah.
Wow.
And yeah, looking back, Imean, I, I'm just assuming
that's probably the
Yeah.
You start having all theselike firework thing goes off.
Cause it's like, you get thestencil and then you start
taking the stencil back tohigh school and whatever.
And this, and you're like,
They look eerily similar.
Yeah.
Like the pattern is really clear.
Like, you know, like.
(29:26):
Given autonomy, like it was greatand, and, and, you know, we did
this work for someone and, and they,they came back to me with their list
and they're like, you know, I justexited like a long term relationship
and looking at, I didn't know why,but in looking at this list, it's
really clear to me now, right?
Maybe that would have happened forthem three to six months earlier.
Like whatever it was, thatperson couldn't give them like
(29:48):
the thing that was basicallymost important to them.
You can be that my wife andI are not the same person.
We don't, we do things differently.
We have different activities.
You can be, you can be different,but if you think about a
relationship or a special report,you have to be aligned on the
big things like when it comesto our family and our kids
and the important to see, likewe're always philosophically.
(30:10):
On the same page.
That doesn't mean like,you know, she likes tennis.
I liked it.
Like, like the, the, thatstuff's not values oriented.
That's sort of hobbies andactivities and that sort of stuff.
Yeah.
Well, so, so the values, likesome, it's interesting, you
have relationships, you know,a lot of people, if you have
partners in a relation are inyour business, that is, it's kind
(30:32):
of, it's a similar kind of thing.
I've had partners over the yearson a whole bunch of companies.
Each of your personal values needsto somehow dot with the company's
values in order for it to work.
Bingo.
Yeah, there needs tobe an overlap there.
So, yeah, I'm thinkingof, uh, like a practice.
So to identify, let's say the personlistening, watching is like, okay,
(30:52):
well, I got to get clear of myvalues first before I start to, you
know, ask other people of theirs.
So I'm not just thinking, oh, I'mgoing to adopt up some of that.
Um, yeah, for me,I've done the Jordan.
Dr Jordan Peterson has this wholeself, um, oh, my gosh, the, the
self authoring program it's called.
So you go.
Back in the past and the new presentand then the future, but you know,
(31:14):
you start in the past and thatunlocked so much for me where you
go to the root of things and you
yeah, it's probably a lot ofwhat the process that I use.
And look, I actually had to figurethis out on myself for years.
And then I built aprocess with our team.
And then people would alwaysask me after my book elevate.
How do I do this?
I was like, it's notlike a quick thing.
(31:36):
So I ended up I've developeda course, um, like over
2000 people have taken it.
It's kind of an hour.
It will really kind of give itto you, but the behavioral based
questions are designed to, uh,elicit all those historical
examples because they, they, theyreally do tell the story and then.
You might look at all thoseexamples, figure out the value,
and then if you really go back,like for most of these things
(31:58):
they connect to, I find thatmost people are going back to
something in childhood and theyare doubling down on something that
was very important to them, maybeoverdoing it, or they are running
180 degrees away from somethingthey, they hated or despised,
Wow.
That's all.
And yeah, it's getting to the root.
It's typically, yeah.
It's like one or a couplethings, at least I've found.
(32:19):
Yeah.
From childhood.
Yeah.
Six years old right around.
it's not a victim.
Look, look, here's a great example.
Let's let the example of, andI use this in my book, let,
let's say that you grew upwith a single parent, right?
And let's say the parent died.
The other parent died.
You grew up a single parent,this parent worked three jobs,
you know, and got this kidinto college or into Harvard.
(32:43):
And they went on, you know, and,and having an incredible career.
Career and then they decidedto develop an afterschool.
The biggest globalafterschool program for kids
of single parents, right?
Why?
Because they were really lonely.
As a kid, they're notblaming the right.
This parent like dideverything they could.
(33:03):
I think people have to look.
I'm looking for, youknow, psychologists.
It's not about blame.
It's about understanding.
And we're all like, soyou were lonely as a kid.
That was your lived experience.
You was doing because yourparents was working three jobs
to put food on the table andget you in an Ivy League school
and put you into this position.
It doesn't change the truth for you.
And it doesn't change that.
That became, uh, The realmotivation to build this program
(33:25):
and do a lot of good, right?
It's not like we're not lookingfor, like, who can we blame?
But we're looking to just understandwhy that person double clicks
on loneliness, you know, morethan more than someone else,
you know thyself, you know,at least you don't have to
dwell on all that stuff.
Just know it, understand it.
Cool,
Understand, understand.
You probably work better in teams.
You don't want to work alone, right?
(33:46):
Like, like these are all, thisis how it all shows up as a
40 year old leading a teamof people in the workplace.
Absolutely.
It's never too late.
So yeah, I can't get that work done.
Well, I'm thinking now, uh, Robertwith like technology, AI and remote
work, like, are there any trendsor maybe other best practices we
should think about with, you know,I mean, with AI and technology,
(34:10):
there's a lot of fear people havesometimes like, am I being replaced?
How do I learn this?
I can't keep up with
yeah,
Talk about that.
Yeah.
What are your thoughts there?
my, my rule on any new thingis to not be a minimalist and
not be a maximalist, right?
So I understand chat GBT.
I use it every day.
I figured out how tomake it more productive.
You know, all, all of this stuff.
(34:31):
Uh, I am, I am not.
And then there's a whole othercamp, like, you know, everything's
going to be AI or like they set upa thing where this chat bot texts
his girlfriend in the morning andthat their chat bot texts you back.
And I'm like, I don'twant to live like that.
Like that's not.
Yeah.
So I want, I actually want to, Ithink that with all the AI, there
will actually be a huge interestin real experiences, or if it's
(34:54):
doing all your work, then likeprobably you want to invest in
campgrounds and travel things andthe things that like where humans
are going to need to connect.
So I think it's important tounderstand these trends and, and
look, you can't afford to not.
Try chat dbt or understandwhat it could do.
Or if you're doing any sortof work, like it's my personal
assistant, like that I'mworking with all the time.
(35:16):
Like, I don't, I, one ofmy, one of my weaknesses is
like, I can write very fast.
I'm a very slow editor and Imiss spelling mistakes and stuff.
Well, boom, make sure there's nospelling problems in this right now.
You should, I have no reason toever send an email again that
has a spelling mistake in it.
So if I didn't even playaround with that, then I'd be
missing out on the innovation.
I think the everything'sgoing to be this and go all
(35:38):
in with my stock portfolio.
Like, like that's, that'show bubbles get born.
And we know it tends to go toabsolute fever pitch, blow up.
And then the, the, thestorm more dominant,
permanent use cases come up.
Kind of like we sawwith the internet stuff.
Kind of trajectory.
But remember, if it was twoyears ago, you were being
told if you didn't pivot yourbusiness, the blockchain, you
(36:00):
were going to be dead, right?
So like that fervorwas almost as bad.
I mean, Long Island blockchain,the ice tea company that
renamed itself blockchain, like
Oh,
when these manias happen, it's veryhard to sort out the, the sort of
reality from the, the, the bubble.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, as itpertains to teams communication,
what we're talking about hereis to have open communications
(36:23):
about technology and how itplays a role in our day to day.
Yeah, my kids, I'm like,look, like you do not use
it to write your papers.
Don't cheat.
Don't get through it.
But, but I've, I've shown them,you can put your paper into
it and say, I'm an 11th graderand this is the assignment.
Tell me what grade you would giveme and give me critical feedback.
Oh, that's cool.
That's like, so you get likea free teacher review on it.
(36:44):
Like, to me, that's a great wayto use it and then go do the work.
Yep.
I, or ask it questions and, andhelp her find, you know, ask better
It can develop a study guide basedon every I'm taking AP, whatever.
Here are the questions.
Like, give me a studyguide, make note card.
Like, like if you're not playingwith that, you're really missing
out on some, some opportunitiesthere to save some time.
(37:06):
Like, but also onthe flip side, look.
If we remove struggle, if weremove difficulty, like we will
have all kinds of other problems.
Like I, I'm far enough in my career.
I don't want to do someof the crap work now.
Like, but if you never have to doanything hard, that's going to have
a whole bunch of other implications.
It'll just introduce otherhard things that will just
(37:27):
show up in your lap if
Right.
Hard things will come.
You just won't knowhow to deal with them.
I love the quote wherewe are, we are preparing
kids for the path rather.
No, we are preparing the pathfor the kids rather than we're
preparing kids for the path.
Like that is the problemwith parenting these
That ain't gonna work out.
Yeah.
Well, Robert, like what'scause you've, you've grown.
So, you know, uh, large, uh,partnership company, what
(37:48):
acceleration partners, you, you,you write a newsletter every
single week, you know, it goesout to hundreds of thousands
of people podcast, like what's,um, and you know, we'll link all
that stuff in the show notes.
And, and of course you haveanother book coming out.
You're a machine, man.
And like, was there a tipping point?
Yeah.
Or something that got you tothink like that, like, you
(38:11):
know, at the core values with,
Yeah.
So, so a hundred percent.
So it's actually 2013.
So I, as I've been doing speakingover the last five or 10 years,
it was about three years ago andsomeone was reading my bio for the
speaking and I had this revelation.
I was like, Every singlething they just listed.
In this book was after 2013and for 2013 for me was when I
(38:33):
went to this leadership offsitewith, with EO and it was this
sort of core value thing.
It was that I thought we weregoing to learn how to be better
leaders like tools and trick.
And it was like the firsttwo days were a big mirror,
which were like, who are you?
What do you want?
What do you value?
Figure that out first and thenwe can talk about what kind
of leader you're going to be.
And so it was the six months afterthat, that I figured out my values.
(38:55):
The practical implicationof that was I went and
changed my company's values.
I said, I'm going to doubledown on these things.
I made a list of things I'm goingto quit because it was really clear.
I switched boards, Idumped relationships.
So for me, it was like,that was sort of the pivotal
moment of figuring out.
How to reallocate my time,even as a parent, you know,
one of the things like, look,I, I struggled in school.
(39:17):
I was 80 decade creative.
I would go to these parentnights and like, like, I
just, it's just torture.
Like, it's like, I can't, I'm notpaying attention what they said.
I'm daydreaming.
It's like back in school.
I'm like, this doesn'tmake me a better parent.
Like, I like doing challenging.
I taking my kids to the rope courselike that's in service of my core
values, going and sitting and Andlike mindlessly through this two and
(39:40):
a half hours, I just like stoppedgoing to back to school night.
Like I was like, thisisn't my contribution.
I'd rather like take my kid andgo do a lesson with them or,
or, or do something like that.
So there were small things andthey were big things, but that was
100 percent when I changed this, Isaid, that was sort of the cooking
with gas moment, I think for me,
Yeah, that's cool, man.
And you're noticing in timesin the day to day, you know,
(40:02):
and, and I think with thatmirror, it needs to, it's going
to shine on you at some time.
And if you choose to have itshine, you know, I mean, you
probably didn't know it was comingin that leadership training,
but, um, you know, we all havethe ability to at least shine
harder than I thoughtit was going to be.
No kidding.
Well, um, is there, is there abest next step that you would
recommend folks to take after this?
(40:24):
I mean, we talked about the,the two week, um, you know,
uh, the whole gap there, butalso the value side of things.
I think there's some
Yeah.
Look, if you go to, ifyou go to robertglaser.
com, so the Friday forwardnewsletter on sub stack is on there.
You can see the courses, my books.
If you, if you go to the Fridayforward, a sub stack, you can
actually get the first threechapters of the book for free.
(40:46):
So you can read almost half the bookand you're like, I'm in on this.
And I think I don't know.
It's like a 3 investment afterthat or something of the ebook
if it's if it's valuable.
So you can check out the newsletterand the courses on there.
Um, and I just think anyone whodoes that, who goes through the
12 weeks of the exercises thatcome on the email and doesn't
have some fundamental claritythat they can make sense on
(41:07):
their life, like call me like
Yeah,
it right.
Like I said, about 2000people have done that.
It's just, there's no otherscalable way than to do that work.
And it's not, it'snot rocket science.
It's like other things.
It's going to ask you abunch of these questions.
It's going to help yousynthesize the answers and
pull the trends out of them.
man.
Cool, man.
(41:27):
Yeah.
And I love sub stack too.
So just in
Yeah.
Substack seems to be like tipping.
Like it just seems likeevery everyone's moving.
I getting a lot of moving signs.
Like I'm moving to substack,you know, from wherever
A lot of movies.
Well, put good thoughtsout there, man.
You know, it's like blogs werethe thing back in the day.
Now I feel like some stacksare, you know, trending up.
But Robert, I appreciateyou, your thoughts.
(41:49):
And I know you've done the work.
You've thought deeplyin all this stuff.
So it shows.
And, um, so thank you for your time.
This
Thanks for having me, Joe.
The traditional two weeknotice is killing companies.
(00:03):
But it's not for thereason you think.
So today I have RobertGlazer on the podcast.
He's the founder of a globalmarketing empire and a wall
street journal bestselling author.
He's revealing today that thisrespectful practice of giving two
weeks to leave a company like anemployee or anyone on your team.
(00:24):
That it's actually destroyingworkplace relationships and
companies are losing a ton ofmoney because of lost productivity.
And it's actually somethingEuropeans, think we're pretty nuts
for keeping this, this ritual.
So, uh, the, the whole thing isthat there's a counter-intuitive
approach that Robert's been teachingand implementing in his company
(00:47):
and others around the world.
And you gotta hear what it is inthe way that he goes about it.
So you're not in this situation andyou save a bunch of money and time
and help people out in the process.
So let's get into it.
Chat with Mr.
Robert Glazer.
All right, Robert, we're doing this.
I'm happy.
(01:07):
We made the time.
We got to think, uh, you know,good old friend, Charles Bird
for making this happen, superconnector, got to shout him out,
you know, uh, how you doing today?
I know you're out in
I'm, I'm good.
We're, uh, we're, we're, we'regetting close to, you know, the
holiday break, which is alwaysmy favorite time of year, because
it's the one time where when Ibreak, the world is also breaking
(01:29):
and I don't get any emails.
So
Do you normally breakat that time of year?
that's
There's plenty of times whereyou can take a week off and
you come back to 400 emails.
I, my email goes outto almost nothing over
Christmas week, so I love it.
Love it.
Well, you probably have thesystem you've dialed that in.
I'm sure, you know, over the years,well, we got connected, uh, you
know, from Charles saying, you know,Charles has been on the podcast
(01:52):
before, and the guy always selectsgreat people that I should know,
and then I should share with others.
And.
He, he introduced us because of thisbook that, that just got released
recently called rethinking the twoweek re Rethinking Two Weeks Notice.
And you know, it's done really well.
And it was immediately a concept.
(02:12):
I was like, wait, yeah, the twoweek notice concept, like we've
all experienced it in some way,
we've all been on one side of it.
In fact, the book starts with,imagine you, there's an, I won't get
this correct, but you know, you're,you're sitting in your office
working, your employee comes in,they close the door and they say,
Hey Jody, have a, have a minute.
And like, you're like,you're hard to say.
And everyone's beenthrough that conversation.
(02:33):
Like, you know what it's like?
And it never feels good eitherway, either side of the table, you
know, So why, I mean,yeah, two weeks.
It's so, cause ever since I startedto job, you had a job at Burger
King back in the day, two weeknotice, you know, I knew that when
I was moving on up, got to givethat two weeks, but it's like,
The why is interesting.
I've studied thispretty extensively.
(02:55):
Like most people, evenEuropeans, they don't understand.
Like it's not a real thing.
Like you are an employmentat will in the U S you
can leave at any time.
You can leave on one minute'snotice somewhere along the
way it became known as sortof the respectful, responsible
thing to give two weeks notice.
There are plenty and managers andleaders out there, you know, if
(03:16):
they have a, Number two, and they'veworked with them for five years.
Like that doesn't feel respectfulor helpful or anything.
So there's, and then there'speople in Europe who are
like, I don't understand.
We have to give three monthsnotice and it's statutory.
It's an on both sides.
So it's been around for a while.
The problem is, I'm alwaysfascinated by cognitive dissonance.
(03:36):
You know, our ability tohold two different things in
our head at the same time.
We know that we're not in amarket of lifetime employment
on the side of our brain.
We know there's no pensions.
People aren't going to work forour company for 10 or 15 years.
If you go through a list of thebest companies in America, maybe
the average 10 years, two tothree years, given that the bulk
of their employees are probablyin their twenties and thirties.
So, so we intuitively know thatwhen people go to leave, we
(03:59):
act more like it's a marriage.
Breakup than it is like the endof a sports contract, which is
really more what it should be like.
And so you have this hiding andlying and doctor appointments
because people don't knowany other way to do it.
Uh, that's just sort ofwhat they were told by their
forefathers and mothers.
Yeah, that's a good point.
(04:20):
And it's like you relatethis to a, it should be
more like a sports contract.
It's usually two tothree year deals ish.
And by the way, theyshould be evaluated, right?
Like we'd all be better ifyou signed a two year deal
and it's coming to the end.
I'm like, Joe, do Iwant to resign this?
Are you getting a raise?
Are you getting a pay cut?
What, you know, do,do, is it time to just.
Like we got a rookie and we wantto try them, you know, instead.
(04:42):
So, but we're acting morelike it's a marriage.
Uh, and so, you know, it is,which is not the right analogy.
So, so it's, it, it'd be theequivalent of if I said someone
just walked in your relationship,let me not a marriage.
You're dating someone.
They're like, look, I'mmoving in two weeks.
I'm moving in with someone newand I'm going to a different city.
Like that's not goingto feel so good.
(05:03):
No.
Yeah.
Like, what did I miss?
Why did we not
In that context, people arelike, yeah, that's ridiculous.
I'm like, it's not that differentthan like, I've been working
for you and smiling every dayand I've been securing a new
job for six months, right?
It's not that the only differenceis the expectation, right?
That, that, so
Well, so how, howdo you change that?
Like, you know, there,there's the two week concept.
(05:26):
So we got that andit's on both sides.
So I guess as someone beingthe employer or the higher,
or, you know, the one withthe business, um, yeah.
what's what's the
So it's on, the onus ison the, there's a lot of
disclaimers with this book.
The first disclaimer is you don'tread this book and go into your,
you know, company that fires peopleevery time they say they're unhappy
and say, look, I want to talk.
(05:46):
I'm a little unhappy.
Like, so this is, this isreally the, the employer needs
to say, we're changing thestigma around how people leave.
And I advocate for thisconcept called open
transition programs where.
Like when you want to leave,you can go through a period of
transition again, back to thesports analogy, someone's finishing
their free agent contract and youknow, they're not signing with you.
(06:09):
They still play thegame and they show up.
They haven't signed the newcontract yet, but like they're
an adult, like they, you know,they're not tanking at the end.
They, you know, there'srepercussions to that.
So this notion of, Hey,you can start a discussion.
It is totally safe.
And we said that to our employeeswhen we started the program.
If you want to talk about.
I'm not feeling great about this.
I want to do something different.
Can I explore a different role?
I'm not saying, you know,we'll go on forever.
(06:32):
Like, but, but, but we are not goingto walk you to the door tomorrow.
And actually with that information,we have a lot better chance
of creating a better outcome.
We might figure outit's not solvable.
And so you get to start, golooking for your next job
and winding down this job.
And we kind of do arec and start hiring.
And if you're in a professionalservices business, I always like to
double click on this cause we are.
(06:53):
And you have a lot of service forlike, what's the thing that annoys
you the most about a service firm?
What's the thing that makes youwant to usually fire them the most
when you have, you know, on the
flip
I mean, it's gotta be communicationis one of the biggest things.
If there's not good communication,
I'm like,
and what about when the personyou love your account manager like
suddenly is gone like two weeks
later
That's even more, that's worse.
(07:14):
Trust,
well, yeah, so the numberone thing people hate is when
they're the person they'redealing with like It's constantly
leaving and moving, right?
And this is how itplays out in reality.
If Joe is at my company and givestwo weeks notice and the client
loves him, I have to go in thereand Joe has to be like, look, I'm
actually leaving in two weeks.
You're going to have a new manager.
I don't know who it is.
(07:34):
Someone you don't know is goingto get on the phone with you
or otherwise, like not good.
Joe enters our open transitionprogram because he started
a conversation or we starteda conversation saying, Joe,
your performance has beenlike really bad for a while.
Like Do you want todo the work on this?
Do you want to be doing something?
And Joe says, you know what?
I really just don't want to bedoing sales or account management.
Can you, can you, can I,can I sort of start the
(07:55):
process of, uh, of leaving?
Well, what would happen was, youknow, we'd, we'd grab Sarah or
hire Sarah and we'd start bringingSarah to the first four or five
meetings and slowly Sarah would takeover all the calls and build the
reporter client and then somewherein six weeks, Joe's going to say to
the client, you know, I'm actuallygoing to be leaving in a couple
of weeks and you've got to knowSarah and she's going to take over.
That's a totally different.
(08:16):
Experience for the client,
So it's kind of like you're shat.
Yeah.
There's communication happeningwell in advance and it's, and
it's, it's kind of an expectationof the company is that this
is how we operate, right?
Yeah, and one of the objections, Ihave a whole chapter on objection
handling in this objection tome, like we'll be like, this
won't work and it won't work.
Like, so one of them is, look, wecan't have this person stay and
(08:38):
work like they're already toxic andit's already a mess and otherwise.
And I would say that, yes,that could be the case.
But, but for this person,but what the, the yeah.
Let's say, like, I'm firing Joe.
Let's pick on Joe.
I'm firing Joe today in December.
We're recording this probablyaround January, like, and we're
(08:58):
all pissed at each other now.
The early signs of the problem withthis were probably in March, right?
And Joe's a little disengaged.
His work isn't great.
I could put Joe on a pip, orwhat I'm advocating for is like
real conversations where themanager sits down like, Joe,
Your work's been like, likedefinitely below par recently.
(09:19):
You kind of bit likewhat, what's going on?
And they have the psychologicalsafety to do that.
And they have their relationship.
And I talk about, if youdig, this is called digging
to the root in the book.
And if you dig to the root,there's usually three.
There's three common routes, likethings that the employee needs to
change, things that the employercan change if they want to, and
things that are not going to change.
So Joe might say to thisconversation, You know what?
(09:41):
I lost my child care andI've been like exhausted
and stressed and I can make.
Okay, well, now I know this like.
Let's try to work around it.
You're gonna have to fix this.
You're gonna have to getchild care and do the work.
But we can we canmess with your hours.
And like, I understand that thisis sort of an external thing
that's impacting your work, right?
Joe might come in and say, Look,I couple things he could say.
(10:04):
I transferred.
Into sales last year andI really don't love it.
I'd like to go back to marketing orlook, I know the last three people
you hired or paid more than me.
And I was promised a raiseand this like months ago.
And so I'm just really frustrated.
And the company might be like,Oh yeah, we screwed this up.
Like Joe missed the cycle.
And so we fixed that.
Right.
So now in these first twocases, like we fixed their
(10:24):
different problems though.
We tend to.
The performance improvement planis like giving a Tylenol that
everyone has a headache when likeone person might be dehydrated.
One might be allergic to gluten andone might have a brain tumor, right?
There are different sourcereasons that they have a headache.
So in this first one, Ifigured out an external thing.
That's the problem.
(10:44):
We worked on it.
The second one is an internal or Joemight say, look, I'm missing office
and this is a remote only company.
And I might say, Joe, We're notopening offices anytime soon.
So why don't we help you go workat a company that has offices?
So Joe's misperformance was man,it was showing up in the results,
but like why it's happening plays abig part on whether I could, Joe's
(11:05):
gone from green to yellow, like,can I get him back to green either
on his way internally or out thedoor once he's on like red, red
and cause if I let this go on, thenlet's say I never found out that it
was your childcare, then I'm like,Yelling at you and get your lazy.
And then you're like, I mean,then like, by then we just
get to a point where thewhole thing is unrecoverable.
(11:27):
The whole basis of this programis shifting that timeline
way earlier to the earlywarning detection systems.
And you'd be surprised how manytimes a real conversation, someone's
like, look, I just don't wantto be in client service anymore.
And you're like, that's okay.
So why don't you startgoing to looking for a job
elsewhere and we'll startlooking for your replacement.
Yeah.
(11:47):
So what, how, how earlyis too early, you know, to
have these conversationsor at least like set the,
I think you should setthis as you hire people.
Like I think not like, but youshould, as you hire people,
you should, um, you shouldsay, look, this is the way
people leave our organization.
By the way, it makes it like, ifthey made a mistake, they're going
to feel a lot better that like,there's a good way out of this.
(12:09):
So.
When you want to leave, this ishow you leave, you know, just
so you know, and we have thisprogram when you see a change in
performance or performance isn'tbeing met, you should try to dig
in also just in regular check ins.
Like, how's it going?
Are you happy?
You're liking going to do engage.
And look, a lot of people willsay one thing, but if you're
good manager and good, youwill notice that their facial
(12:30):
expression, or have you everasked someone about a reference?
And like, Joe, what doyou think about Steve?
And they're like, Uh, andI'm like, you don't have
to answer the question.
I, I, I, I'm good.
I got it.
Like, whatever's coming outis not a raving endorsement.
Right.
So you say someone like, how's work?
Are you liking it?
Are you engaged in like, well,you know, and so like, that's
worth digging in because that'sprobably the early signs of a,
(12:52):
uh, of a, of a bigger problem.
Yeah.
Well, I was just creepingon your elevate podcast.
I saw you had RobertCialdini on there.
I had him on my show years ago now.
Awesome.
But
my, like 15 books on my deskover here that has sort of
been my like mainstay books.
sent me one of them and signed it.
I was like, ah, this is cool.
(13:13):
Uh, but I'm thinking of just thepsychological part right there.
It's like, there's differentthings that you want to pick up
on in conversation, in words, intonality, in body language, you
know, it's like, and a lot of usare remote, so I'm sure it gets a
little tough, you know, with thiskind of remote work culture that
I believe you built your companies
we're we're remote.
(13:34):
And look, this goesto my one and one.
So I the way I open a lot of thingsis like, hey, like, how's it going?
And that's a very open question.
That's not how's work or, youknow, and a lot of times like I get
an answer like, You know, sucks.
I'm fighting with my ex wifeagain, and someone who's going
through, and that's what theywant to talk about for 10 minutes.
(13:54):
And so like, we do that.
So these open ended questions giveyou, and then I might have thought
that this person was disengagedand not paying attention this week
or elsewhere, but really like,they just have a personal thing
going on that's like, In their way.
And maybe I couldhelp them with that.
And then so then maybelike they're a little more
engaged it at work, right?
(14:15):
And obviously, like, if that's goingon every day, that's a different
Yes,
I, I mentioned before, I'm a bigstudent and fan of, I don't know,
fan of, but like, I'm alwayslooking, I just think cognitive
dissonance is, is so interesting,causes so many problems.
And one of the core, I haven't, it'sa spinoff of cognitive dissonance.
I haven't named this principleyet, but I'd like some psychologist
(14:36):
to do it for me is that.
Like this is theproblem managers have.
So Joe's not, we'llkeep picking on Joe.
Cause it's easy.
Joe's on my team and Joe's like areally good guy and he's on my sales
team, but he's at 50 percent ofquota for four quarters in a row.
Right.
And so I'm like, I gotto do a bad thing to Joe.
Like Joe's like, Joe'sgot to go, but I like Joe.
(14:56):
And so this brain does notknow what to do with this.
So it has to solve the dissonance.
So the easiest pathto solve it is like.
I'm going to make Joe out to bea bad person so that when I do a
bad thing, I'm the good person.
So I start beinglike, Oh, Joe's lazy.
He's not trying.
I've given him chances.
He's whatever.
So when I finally fired Joe,I'm like Joe deserved it.
And I'm now I'm disrespectful.
(15:18):
And now Joe's pissedand now he sues me.
And that's why we end up that the.
You could flip it anddo it the other way.
You don't have to leaning intothe relationships and having high
standards aren't mutually exclusive.
I can be like, Joe, love you.
Like, but the sales thingobjectively isn't working.
We can see the numbers.
You're the lowest rep on here.
Like, what do you want to do?
(15:39):
Do you want to go to the salestraining and do the work?
And like, I can give youa quarter or two to like,
Get up to everyone else.
But after that, my hands are tied.
Or like, do you wantto do something else?
And should we look forinternal or external?
Right?
Like that's the opportunity.
And if you've never triedone of these conversations,
they're actually like, peopledon't want to do a bad job.
(15:59):
They know when they'redoing a bad job.
Like they're actuallyreally refreshing
versus the normal process.
Yeah, it's like a check in, right?
Like, if you do these constant checkins, I do it with my team, you know.
Pure.
check in.
Right.
It's not a perfunctory one.
Yeah.
Well, and I think that's thething is, is inherently we
have this work relationship.
(16:19):
So we feel like we haveto, Oh, how's it going?
Well, I got to talk about work.
You know, it's like, I'm notgoing to bring up everything
about my family or kids or, youknow, haven't been sleeping.
Cause I got a one year old at home.
So,
Right.
I mean, that may be the, that may bethe source of your poor performance.
Right.
That right now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's, it's interesting.
And the cognitivedissonance is a real thing.
(16:41):
Especially like if there is aproblem that happens, we can choose
to, you know, go down the pathof how did, how did this happen?
Yeah.
Like
You're trying to close the gap.
What your brain is always doingis it can't hold these two
incongruent things at the same time.
So it has to close the gap.
So it's either like, I'mgoing to do a bad thing.
(17:01):
So you're a bad person.
I'm actually saying, let'slean it the other way.
Like I'm a good person.
So, but, but I, I also,because I'm a good person, I
can't let Joe continue to failand let down the whole team.
So I'm going to try to likelean into the relationship and
see if we can get a better.
Cause Joe's a, Joe's a goodguy and he's trying, but it's
also not fair to let him suck.
(17:22):
Like, you
Yeah, And there's got tobe a different shift or
something to find the root.
Of course, it sounds like digto the root, which I think is a
super cool thing, because eitheron the employee, the employer,
or you just can't change it.
But you might as welltalk about it, right?
exactly.
Yeah.
and you mentioned safety, becausewith this whole thing, and I know a
root human need for all of us is asense of safety wherever we're at.
(17:46):
Right.
With this discussion, to me, itseems like that breeds safety
or at least this feeling oftrust within an organization.
Yeah.
If you start having theseconversations and people find out
that like, Oh, like, There's nonegative consequence to it, right?
I mean, psychological safety isjust is it's used a lot these days.
(18:07):
But like the definition forme is it's trusted scale.
So if you and I have trust and aone on one thing, I walk into a team
and I just sense that there's trust.
I can speak truth to power.
I can say, Joe, like, Ithink that's a terrible idea.
We're gonna lose our moneyand like no one's gonna know.
Be like, Oh my God, you can'tsay that in front of him.
Like, yeah, I, I, I, Ialways hate to say this.
(18:27):
I wish I had a better line, but,but having, it's a little like
the line on pornography wheresomeone says, I can't define
it, but I know it when I see it.
Like I've been in company, youjust see it in companies that have
psychological safety, you, you,you can see it, you can feel it.
But it's very hard to,like, put your finger on it.
Is it like a culture thing?
Or is it more than that?
(18:48):
yeah, it's part of the culture.
I think it's the coretenet of good cultures.
Um, but I think the twobiggest components are, like,
vulnerability and feedbackare pretty normalized, right?
I was, I was, I was Asked to give akeynote speak to peach to a company
for their leadership offsite.
And they invited me to jointhe meeting in the morning
before I was speaking.
And so they all went around and theydid highs and lows, uh, you know,
(19:11):
and there was like a lot of tearsand people sharing like some pretty
deep personal lows that they had.
And that was sortof my first tip off.
And then the second time they dida, Hey, what are the elephants
in the room starting our offsite?
And people said stuff and theCEO was right there and they
were pretty, you know, honest.
I was like, God, this team'sgoing to have no problem.
Um, With their planning.
And then what they were doinglater on was trying to do five and
(19:33):
10 year organizational planning.
And so to do that, you had toknow, and they were like, look,
we're not sure that we're allgoing to be in these seats.
You know, we're goingto plan out the seats.
And they went around and askedpeople like, Joe, how long do you
see yourself wanting to do this?
And you're like, I see myselfhere another, like Five years.
Someone's like 10 years.
So they were even being honestat like how long they wanted
to be at the company, but theyneeded that for the planning.
(19:54):
And it was not a surprise to meafter watching that opening in
the morning that when you got intothe other stuff that they had no
problem having these conversations,
That's cool.
Yeah.
That's just those open, like yousaid, vulnerable conversations
that welcomes feedback and openquestions, you know, and it's not
like it's one, one sided either.
(20:14):
Those are the two ways.
The Joe Hari window is this concept.
Those are the two ways you can.
Create more vulnerability, right?
Is is to be accepting of feedbackand showing that like, give me the
feedback and it'd be sharing andmore vulnerable because it's sort
of like it opens up the windows ofwhat other people know about you and
what you sort of know about them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Is there, um, is there aprocess or protocol you'd
(20:37):
recommend people to follow?
Like that sounds like, youknow, in that team's meeting,
it was like maybe part of theirweekly meeting, for instance.
I mean, yes.
And I talked about that.
You can add simple questions intocheck ins like again, high and low.
What was, what was the bigthing from the weekend?
And the, but the key thing is thatthe leader always goes first and
(20:58):
whatever the leader says, we'llset the tone for the whole meeting.
I was with a facilitatoryears ago who showed us this.
He took six people in our groupand he went, I'm going to watch
my, I'm going to do an exercise.
And he said, all right, we'reall going to do something.
We don't know about each other.
And he's like, I was a fiddle playergrowing up and everyone went around.
And the second time he was like,My ex, my stepdad was a raging
(21:18):
alcoholic and I spent most ofmy childhood at night trying to
figure out who he was going tohit and who I had to distract.
And you know, otherwise, andthen everyone, he didn't, then
everyone went around again, liketotally different level of stories.
Right.
So, you know, we've, we've donethat even in a quarterly meeting,
we were like, what's something thatlike, You would like a mulligan
(21:40):
on which is a golf term for doover, you know, from last quarter.
And if a leader steps in there,it's like, man, I just blew the
call with this partner because Iwas unprepared and I rushed into
it and retrospect like that islike so empowering for than other
people to Share similar stories.
So it's just these little,look, you can do offsite
(22:00):
stuff and trust building.
Maybe you can introduce theselittle personal segments into
your regular calls and meetings.
That's, that's, that'sone way to do that.
I'm just thinking of like how thatthat changes everything, just all
communication, even not just within,you know, the leaders there, but
within the community are the team
Yeah.
I mean, you know, that thatjust fosters just a sense of
(22:23):
trust with everyone, you know,
I, I don't, I don't love usingexamples of myself, but I was
doing this core value discovery.
and look, I, I'm thefounder of the company.
I'm not as involved anymore, but Ido a lot of our leadership training.
So these are a lot of ournew up and coming employees.
They haven't met me before in like.
I understand, like I think I'ma kind of a normal, approachable
person, but it's intimidating.
It's like the founder ofthe company and whatever.
(22:44):
And when, when I do this session andI'm talking about, look, when we're
doing this core value stuff, you'vegotta think about your childhood and
things that were formative for you.
They, because in 99% ofcases, like it, it, it's
why this is a value for you.
And I'm like, here's my deal.
Like I was a.
Huge underachiever.
It was super embarrassing for me.
So I solved that bybeing an overachiever.
(23:06):
It created these othersets of problems.
And this is kind of why,you know, this is important
to me in these values.
And I think, like, I mean,I've told that so many times,
like, I don't even I don'teven tell you to people.
I don't know.
At this point, I think it'spretty surprising for people.
And then the stuff that theyshared was was I actually could
really help like two people sharedstories about pretty formative
(23:29):
childhood experience that weredefinitive to their values and
showed up in their leadership.
Like you just can't havethat kind of experience.
And I, I was able toshow them how it helped.
It how it influenced theirleadership style and, and why
it wasn't a good or a bad, butlike they had to understand that
because it was really gonna, and,and that was helpful for them.
(23:50):
But had I not set the tablefor that, they probably
wouldn't have shared that andI couldn't have helped them.
And so that's sort ofhow it, how it works.
I wasn't looking touse it against them.
I was looking to.
To help them, you know, with it.
Uh huh.
Well, especially if, well, for onewith your company, if you're not
the one leading the day to day,you want to have other leaders or
(24:10):
at least people that are conveyingthat sense of, uh, you know,
culture, trust, communicationthat you're after anyway,
Yeah, exactly.
and.
you mentioned the whole good values.
Like I know you're, you're workingon a whole, another book and you
have multiple books out there.
So definitely go,
go
I love, what I lack in quality, Imake up in quantity, so that's fine.
It's okay.
You're getting it done.
(24:31):
So like personal goals, core values,uh, not personal goals, but personal
core values make up, like you justsaid, leadership, potential, or,
or at least qualities and ways thatpeople interact with each other.
Um, I guess help me define that,like the concept around that.
And cause this definitelyrelates to what we've been
Yeah.
A lot of people are like,look, I have values, but
(24:52):
they can't name them.
Right.
And so if you can't name them,you probably know when they're
broken, you know, when you're inflow, you, you can feel them my,
my, the way I say is like, look,if I took a really nice sports
car and I drove it through atunnel and the tunnel had walls
and a yellow line, I turn off.
The yellow line isyour, is your values.
(25:13):
So you're going to, the car isgoing to drift past the yellow line.
It's going to hit the wall.
You're going to go,Oh, you know, bad.
We're going to go to the middle.
I'm going to hit the other wall.
I'm probably going to get out theother side, but that car is going
to be like banged up as hell.
Right?
If you turn on the lightsand I see where the yellow
lines are, like I stay.
In the right lane.
And so to me, like personal corevalues are just the fundamental
(25:33):
best decision making toolthat you have in your life.
And I talk about the bigthree of your vocation, your
community and your relationship.
And if you don't make thosedecisions in a way that's aligned
with your values, they have avery low chance of working out.
So when we're when we're trying tosort of do leadership development,
one of my things like, Look,you got to understand this was
(25:54):
this was the unlock for me.
Um, That you are going to be thebest leader if you are authentic
and you got to understand yourselfand you got to understand the
strengths and weaknesses thatyou bring to the table and, and
you're not changing, but there'sa lot of baggage there and I'm,
and I can't give you the numberof examples like of someone like
there are leaders for whom trust isparamount and like their core value
(26:14):
is relationships based on trust.
If I look at those people andI say, let me ask you, and I,
when I, once we do the work andwe figure out that their value
or their why is trust, does thatYour focus on trust come from
a violation of trust somewherein your life in your childhood
and they don't have to answer.
I don't say I won'task you what it is.
And normally the tear that's rollingout of the eye or the, you know,
(26:37):
facial like tells me that thereis some deep pain and they're
not going to change that, right?
Because over years they'vehad a small group of friends.
It's hard to get in thecircle or otherwise.
So that it can workfor you as a leader.
If you say, Hey, trust is reallyimportant to me on my team.
Um, you know, if you missmeetings, if you show up late,
if I can't find you, these areall things that lose trust.
The promise for that leader,when that trust happens or those
(27:01):
things that it's triggering likethat nuclear, like trust is kind
of a life and death thing becausethe last thing that happened is.
My dad left or whatever, whateverit was that sort of did that.
So it can be a pro, it can be a con.
It all depends on if you know it.
What, what, what's fascinatingis these trust leaders that
we've had a few of them overtime, they were basically like
half their team was in jail.
(27:22):
The key was thrown out.
Like they had no idea, like,but when you really act, they're
like, yeah, like, and you canhear it from the HR department.
They were like, this person's alwaysjust so hot or cold on people.
And they're like, Irredeemableor they love them too much and
like that's the problem like itcan really work for them But to
work for them they have to know itand they have to articulate it So
(27:44):
their team's like look if I can'tfind you if you're late for things
or whatever Like that is kind ofirrecoverable for me as a leader So
I'm just telling you that up frontso that we know how to work together
Ooh, that's huge, man.
I can't even, I doubt most peopleare approaching things that way with
No, no, this is this is Look,this is seriously deep work.
(28:04):
It is the most impactfulthing I've ever did.
I love doing it with people andleaders because I think when they
get it, they tend to have this likeJust like explosion of, they start
looking back at their whole lifeand suddenly everything makes sense.
Why I hated that job, why thatrelationship didn't work out.
Like, like again, theywere, they were that car
(28:25):
that was hitting the wall.
You know, the feeling of drivingin the lane, but when you have
these four things in front ofyou that says like, You know,
respect and authenticity areincredibly important to me.
Long term orientation,like making things better.
Like you're able to lookand be like, you know what?
They're asking me to do a jobwhere it's a short term job.
(28:45):
I'm not going to be ableto make anything better.
It's transactional, not relational.
Like this is going to suck for me.
Like, like this is not,
this is not going to work for me.
In fact, when I have peopledo that backwards looking lens
afterwards and like, what's theworst job, worst boss, they're able
to almost look and be like, look,this was, This was everything I
hate at my, you know, at my core.
(29:06):
Yeah.
Wow.
And yeah, looking back, Imean, I, I'm just assuming
that's probably the
Yeah.
You start having all theselike firework thing goes off.
Cause it's like, you get thestencil and then you start
taking the stencil back tohigh school and whatever.
And this, and you're like,
They look eerily similar.
Yeah.
Like the pattern is really clear.
Like, you know, like.
(29:26):
Given autonomy, like it was greatand, and, and, you know, we did
this work for someone and, and they,they came back to me with their list
and they're like, you know, I justexited like a long term relationship
and looking at, I didn't know why,but in looking at this list, it's
really clear to me now, right?
Maybe that would have happened forthem three to six months earlier.
Like whatever it was, thatperson couldn't give them like
(29:48):
the thing that was basicallymost important to them.
You can be that my wife andI are not the same person.
We don't, we do things differently.
We have different activities.
You can be, you can be different,but if you think about a
relationship or a special report,you have to be aligned on the
big things like when it comesto our family and our kids
and the important to see, likewe're always philosophically.
(30:10):
On the same page.
That doesn't mean like,you know, she likes tennis.
I liked it.
Like, like the, the, thatstuff's not values oriented.
That's sort of hobbies andactivities and that sort of stuff.
Yeah.
Well, so, so the values, likesome, it's interesting, you
have relationships, you know,a lot of people, if you have
partners in a relation are inyour business, that is, it's kind
(30:32):
of, it's a similar kind of thing.
I've had partners over the yearson a whole bunch of companies.
Each of your personal values needsto somehow dot with the company's
values in order for it to work.
Bingo.
Yeah, there needs tobe an overlap there.
So, yeah, I'm thinkingof, uh, like a practice.
So to identify, let's say the personlistening, watching is like, okay,
(30:52):
well, I got to get clear of myvalues first before I start to, you
know, ask other people of theirs.
So I'm not just thinking, oh, I'mgoing to adopt up some of that.
Um, yeah, for me,I've done the Jordan.
Dr Jordan Peterson has this wholeself, um, oh, my gosh, the, the
self authoring program it's called.
So you go.
Back in the past and the new presentand then the future, but you know,
(31:14):
you start in the past and thatunlocked so much for me where you
go to the root of things and you
yeah, it's probably a lot ofwhat the process that I use.
And look, I actually had to figurethis out on myself for years.
And then I built aprocess with our team.
And then people would alwaysask me after my book elevate.
How do I do this?
I was like, it's notlike a quick thing.
(31:36):
So I ended up I've developeda course, um, like over
2000 people have taken it.
It's kind of an hour.
It will really kind of give itto you, but the behavioral based
questions are designed to, uh,elicit all those historical
examples because they, they, theyreally do tell the story and then.
You might look at all thoseexamples, figure out the value,
and then if you really go back,like for most of these things
(31:58):
they connect to, I find thatmost people are going back to
something in childhood and theyare doubling down on something that
was very important to them, maybeoverdoing it, or they are running
180 degrees away from somethingthey, they hated or despised,
Wow.
That's all.
And yeah, it's getting to the root.
It's typically, yeah.
It's like one or a couplethings, at least I've found.
(32:19):
Yeah.
From childhood.
Yeah.
Six years old right around.
it's not a victim.
Look, look, here's a great example.
Let's let the example of, andI use this in my book, let,
let's say that you grew upwith a single parent, right?
And let's say the parent died.
The other parent died.
You grew up a single parent,this parent worked three jobs,
you know, and got this kidinto college or into Harvard.
(32:43):
And they went on, you know, and,and having an incredible career.
Career and then they decidedto develop an afterschool.
The biggest globalafterschool program for kids
of single parents, right?
Why?
Because they were really lonely.
As a kid, they're notblaming the right.
This parent like dideverything they could.
(33:03):
I think people have to look.
I'm looking for, youknow, psychologists.
It's not about blame.
It's about understanding.
And we're all like, soyou were lonely as a kid.
That was your lived experience.
You was doing because yourparents was working three jobs
to put food on the table andget you in an Ivy League school
and put you into this position.
It doesn't change the truth for you.
And it doesn't change that.
That became, uh, The realmotivation to build this program
(33:25):
and do a lot of good, right?
It's not like we're not lookingfor, like, who can we blame?
But we're looking to just understandwhy that person double clicks
on loneliness, you know, morethan more than someone else,
you know thyself, you know,at least you don't have to
dwell on all that stuff.
Just know it, understand it.
Cool,
Understand, understand.
You probably work better in teams.
You don't want to work alone, right?
(33:46):
Like, like these are all, thisis how it all shows up as a
40 year old leading a teamof people in the workplace.
Absolutely.
It's never too late.
So yeah, I can't get that work done.
Well, I'm thinking now, uh, Robertwith like technology, AI and remote
work, like, are there any trendsor maybe other best practices we
should think about with, you know,I mean, with AI and technology,
(34:10):
there's a lot of fear people havesometimes like, am I being replaced?
How do I learn this?
I can't keep up with
yeah,
Talk about that.
Yeah.
What are your thoughts there?
my, my rule on any new thingis to not be a minimalist and
not be a maximalist, right?
So I understand chat GBT.
I use it every day.
I figured out how tomake it more productive.
You know, all, all of this stuff.
(34:31):
Uh, I am, I am not.
And then there's a whole othercamp, like, you know, everything's
going to be AI or like they set upa thing where this chat bot texts
his girlfriend in the morning andthat their chat bot texts you back.
And I'm like, I don'twant to live like that.
Like that's not.
Yeah.
So I want, I actually want to, Ithink that with all the AI, there
will actually be a huge interestin real experiences, or if it's
(34:54):
doing all your work, then likeprobably you want to invest in
campgrounds and travel things andthe things that like where humans
are going to need to connect.
So I think it's important tounderstand these trends and, and
look, you can't afford to not.
Try chat dbt or understandwhat it could do.
Or if you're doing any sortof work, like it's my personal
assistant, like that I'mworking with all the time.
(35:16):
Like, I don't, I, one ofmy, one of my weaknesses is
like, I can write very fast.
I'm a very slow editor and Imiss spelling mistakes and stuff.
Well, boom, make sure there's nospelling problems in this right now.
You should, I have no reason toever send an email again that
has a spelling mistake in it.
So if I didn't even playaround with that, then I'd be
missing out on the innovation.
I think the everything'sgoing to be this and go all
(35:38):
in with my stock portfolio.
Like, like that's, that'show bubbles get born.
And we know it tends to go toabsolute fever pitch, blow up.
And then the, the, thestorm more dominant,
permanent use cases come up.
Kind of like we sawwith the internet stuff.
Kind of trajectory.
But remember, if it was twoyears ago, you were being
told if you didn't pivot yourbusiness, the blockchain, you
(36:00):
were going to be dead, right?
So like that fervorwas almost as bad.
I mean, Long Island blockchain,the ice tea company that
renamed itself blockchain, like
Oh,
when these manias happen, it's veryhard to sort out the, the sort of
reality from the, the, the bubble.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, as itpertains to teams communication,
what we're talking about hereis to have open communications
(36:23):
about technology and how itplays a role in our day to day.
Yeah, my kids, I'm like,look, like you do not use
it to write your papers.
Don't cheat.
Don't get through it.
But, but I've, I've shown them,you can put your paper into
it and say, I'm an 11th graderand this is the assignment.
Tell me what grade you would giveme and give me critical feedback.
Oh, that's cool.
That's like, so you get likea free teacher review on it.
(36:44):
Like, to me, that's a great wayto use it and then go do the work.
Yep.
I, or ask it questions and, andhelp her find, you know, ask better
It can develop a study guide basedon every I'm taking AP, whatever.
Here are the questions.
Like, give me a studyguide, make note card.
Like, like if you're not playingwith that, you're really missing
out on some, some opportunitiesthere to save some time.
(37:06):
Like, but also onthe flip side, look.
If we remove struggle, if weremove difficulty, like we will
have all kinds of other problems.
Like I, I'm far enough in my career.
I don't want to do someof the crap work now.
Like, but if you never have to doanything hard, that's going to have
a whole bunch of other implications.
It'll just introduce otherhard things that will just
(37:27):
show up in your lap if
Right.
Hard things will come.
You just won't knowhow to deal with them.
I love the quote wherewe are, we are preparing
kids for the path rather.
No, we are preparing the pathfor the kids rather than we're
preparing kids for the path.
Like that is the problemwith parenting these
That ain't gonna work out.
Yeah.
Well, Robert, like what'scause you've, you've grown.
So, you know, uh, large, uh,partnership company, what
(37:48):
acceleration partners, you, you,you write a newsletter every
single week, you know, it goesout to hundreds of thousands
of people podcast, like what's,um, and you know, we'll link all
that stuff in the show notes.
And, and of course you haveanother book coming out.
You're a machine, man.
And like, was there a tipping point?
Yeah.
Or something that got you tothink like that, like, you
(38:11):
know, at the core values with,
Yeah.
So, so a hundred percent.
So it's actually 2013.
So I, as I've been doing speakingover the last five or 10 years,
it was about three years ago andsomeone was reading my bio for the
speaking and I had this revelation.
I was like, Every singlething they just listed.
In this book was after 2013and for 2013 for me was when I
(38:33):
went to this leadership offsitewith, with EO and it was this
sort of core value thing.
It was that I thought we weregoing to learn how to be better
leaders like tools and trick.
And it was like the firsttwo days were a big mirror,
which were like, who are you?
What do you want?
What do you value?
Figure that out first and thenwe can talk about what kind
of leader you're going to be.
And so it was the six months afterthat, that I figured out my values.
(38:55):
The practical implicationof that was I went and
changed my company's values.
I said, I'm going to doubledown on these things.
I made a list of things I'm goingto quit because it was really clear.
I switched boards, Idumped relationships.
So for me, it was like,that was sort of the pivotal
moment of figuring out.
How to reallocate my time,even as a parent, you know,
one of the things like, look,I, I struggled in school.
(39:17):
I was 80 decade creative.
I would go to these parentnights and like, like, I
just, it's just torture.
Like, it's like, I can't, I'm notpaying attention what they said.
I'm daydreaming.
It's like back in school.
I'm like, this doesn'tmake me a better parent.
Like, I like doing challenging.
I taking my kids to the rope courselike that's in service of my core
values, going and sitting and Andlike mindlessly through this two and
(39:40):
a half hours, I just like stoppedgoing to back to school night.
Like I was like, thisisn't my contribution.
I'd rather like take my kid andgo do a lesson with them or,
or, or do something like that.
So there were small things andthey were big things, but that was
100 percent when I changed this, Isaid, that was sort of the cooking
with gas moment, I think for me,
Yeah, that's cool, man.
And you're noticing in timesin the day to day, you know,
(40:02):
and, and I think with thatmirror, it needs to, it's going
to shine on you at some time.
And if you choose to have itshine, you know, I mean, you
probably didn't know it was comingin that leadership training,
but, um, you know, we all havethe ability to at least shine
harder than I thoughtit was going to be.
No kidding.
Well, um, is there, is there abest next step that you would
recommend folks to take after this?
(40:24):
I mean, we talked about the,the two week, um, you know,
uh, the whole gap there, butalso the value side of things.
I think there's some
Yeah.
Look, if you go to, ifyou go to robertglaser.
com, so the Friday forwardnewsletter on sub stack is on there.
You can see the courses, my books.
If you, if you go to the Fridayforward, a sub stack, you can
actually get the first threechapters of the book for free.
(40:46):
So you can read almost half the bookand you're like, I'm in on this.
And I think I don't know.
It's like a 3 investment afterthat or something of the ebook
if it's if it's valuable.
So you can check out the newsletterand the courses on there.
Um, and I just think anyone whodoes that, who goes through the
12 weeks of the exercises thatcome on the email and doesn't
have some fundamental claritythat they can make sense on
(41:07):
their life, like call me like
Yeah,
it right.
Like I said, about 2000people have done that.
It's just, there's no otherscalable way than to do that work.
And it's not, it'snot rocket science.
It's like other things.
It's going to ask you abunch of these questions.
It's going to help yousynthesize the answers and
pull the trends out of them.
man.
Cool, man.
(41:27):
Yeah.
And I love sub stack too.
So just in
Yeah.
Substack seems to be like tipping.
Like it just seems likeevery everyone's moving.
I getting a lot of moving signs.
Like I'm moving to substack,you know, from wherever
A lot of movies.
Well, put good thoughtsout there, man.
You know, it's like blogs werethe thing back in the day.
Now I feel like some stacksare, you know, trending up.
But Robert, I appreciateyou, your thoughts.
(41:49):
And I know you've done the work.
You've thought deeplyin all this stuff.
So it shows.
And, um, so thank you for your time.
This
Thanks for having me, Joe.
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