Confessions from a Former Matchmaker: What 5,000 Daters Told Me

Think dropping thousands of dollars on a matchmaker guarantees love? Think again.
In this juicy episode, a former elite matchmaker to the ultra-wealthy pulls back the velvet curtain on the wild world of high-stakes dating. From ghosted millionaires to clients who refuse second dates with perfect matches, she shares the real drama behind the glam. With over 5,000 love-seeking souls coached, she’s seen it all—and she’s spilling her most surprising, hilarious, and brutally honest lessons about modern romance.  With @carolynhori

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
John Wooden, the winningest
NCAA basketball coach
in history.
He has this quote, do not mistake
activity for achievement.
This is what is happening with
dating. You know, you're getting
these likes or you're swiping
and you're like, oh, I'm doing
something to find my
person. I'm something about my
dating life. But if you really want

(00:21):
a relationship, you have got
to work on yourself first.
Until you can get to that place of
feeling good in your own
center, about dating,
please do yourself a favor and
don't go on the apps.
Hi guys, this is I Hate Dating Apps,

(00:41):
I'm Daniel.
And I am Gina.
Well, Gina, today we have a special
treat for our viewers and
our listeners. I'm super excited.
You know, there's this term called,
uh, statistically significant
sample size.
Okay. Now I would say 5,000
is a pretty big number.
And our special guest today has
helped 5,00 people make
matches.

(01:02):
And then there's some 1500 dates
after that.
So if anybody's going to know
anything about matchmaking, I think
it's our guests. and you're going to
introduce her?
Yes. And of course I'm super excited
because matchmaking is something
that I've considered, but
I typically can't afford
it.
So I was
excited particularly because

(01:22):
you were on an app
where you saw so
many single people and
it was your job to not only
find out who they would be a good
match for, but then also to
set them up on their dates and see
how that went.
And we can't the app,
but we are joined by Carolyn Horry,

(01:42):
who is now an
everything coach, an
architect of life or archeologist
of life.
She coaches people on business
relationships on every
aspect of their lives.
And we're excited to have you.
Thank you, thank you guys so much
for having me.
I'm really excited to be here and
have this conversation with you
and your listeners.
And I love what you guys are sharing

(02:03):
out there. And I think it's really
valuable at this point in time
specifically.
So you were kind of a
matchmaker to higher net worth
individuals.
And you went through
5,000 people approximately
in an effort to see who would be a
good match for whom.
And then you oversaw

(02:23):
1,500 dates
transpire.
And during that
time, you came up with some
very interesting
thoughts about dating apps,
the dating process and modern
love in general.
And I wanna hear all of
it. I don't even know where to
start. Can you just kind of like
start with your top observations?

(02:46):
So the first thing I want to share
is that our company,
our matchmaking service is not
actually an app.
So nobody could actually search the
app. So that's one distinction
that's really important because
everything was behind the scenes.
So a lot of our clients came to us
because they wanted that privacy and
security. They couldn't be out on
Tinder or Hinge or Bumble because

(03:08):
they're a bank CEO or they're a
celebrity or they are a famous
author. And so it wasn't actually
an App. It was basically a
matchmaking service.
that I was one of the matchmakers
and then we would interview
on Zoom most of
the potential dates for
our clients.
Uh-huh.
And then we, as the matchmaker,
would also oversee and set up

(03:30):
the actual date and then, as Gina
mentioned, follow up to see how
the date went and review date
feedback, which is also a very
unique part of our service, was that
we received date feedback from both
parties. And then, we were the ones
that would share that with our
clients.
Mhm.
So, I mean, there's just so many
things that happened.
It was this over a three year period
that I talked to 5,000 people and

(03:50):
set up basically 1,500 dates.
dates. How did you end up a
matchmaker? That's right.
Yeah.
That's such a great question because
I am the archeologist
of the soul.
I have a background in commercial
real estate. That's what I did for
25 years.
And when I quit my big, quote
unquote, big job, it was to find
more purpose in my life because I
was really tired of making money for

(04:10):
really rich people.
And I had no intention of becoming a
matchmaker. At that time, I was
already a coach, the pandemic
happened, and I really was starting
to study intuition.
And so that's one of kind of my zone
of genius is my greatest gifts.
And I was like, well, how am I gonna
study intuition and how am really
gonna get deep on understanding
how to talk to people, how
to read energy.
And so I literally saw an ad

(04:32):
on LinkedIn. I was, like, I
have no idea what this company is.
I have idea what the matchmaking
is. I pushed the button and I knew
intuitively that this is what I was
supposed to do. So I pushed a
button. they had these videos that
you had to fill out on like
their little camera and submit
the videos.
I knew I was going to get the job.
I had no idea why

(04:52):
I was, I was like, what am I doing?
And when I got the job
and when I saw the founder on zoom,
I was so impressed with him and what
he was doing because the big
thing is this was a blind
matchmaking service.
And so I was Like, you know what?
This is really unique because we're
kind of taking out the visual
part, which is one of the big

(05:13):
things that I think is hindering
people on the apps,
is you're just seeing the photo and
you're swiping left or right.
Which you guys. Yeah, make aknee-jerk reaction.
Exactly, which you guys have talked
about a lot, and it's true.
So I was really impressed with what
he was really trying to do and how
he was trying to change the
game of dating psychologically.
And so as I got more involved in
this process, it just, it was in

(05:34):
alignment with what I was trying to
do for my own personal development,
which is improve my intuition,
over the course of speaking to 5,000
people and setting up all these
dates, it definitely helped me with
that.
So was that like intuition,
was that a sort of key
ingredient in making you a good
matchmaker?
I think it is.
And I think I was very successful at

(05:55):
the company. I was one of the
advanced top matchmakers.
And so I think it is
a great tool.
And this is something that I teach
my clients now as a coach is
how to access intuition in business
and life and dating.
It is so important to trust your
gut.
And, you know, Gina, you ask, like,
what are some of my key points?
That's I'd say number one

(06:16):
is you it's it's like people
right now are leading so much with
kind of the wrong.
things, I guess.
They're looking at the pictures,
they're looking at the stats, they
are looking at, you know, all these
things that like really until you
meet somebody, those things
are a thing on a piece of paper, an
app or a photo or video of
a, you know, a stagnant, you don't

(06:37):
know, you can't sense that
chemistry, you cannot sense that
energetic exchange.
And this is so important.
And this is where we are going,
especially with AI, we have
to be able to trust our own
inner guidance system.
is never really gonna steer you
wrong. But we as humans
and society and culture have
covered that up.

(06:58):
And we have downplayed the
importance of that.
But now with everything that is
happening technologically,
we have to learn how
to bring that to the forefront.
So that is what I would say is like
definitely my first tip.
OK, but
a lot of people trust
their gut and swipe past

(07:19):
99 percent of.
I don't trust my gut at all.
Or you don't trust your gut at
all.
No, everybody's looking at the
photos and that's what I'm saying.
Then your gut. That's not really
your gut, that's like your photo.
Like I heard you talk about that on
this podcast.
It's more reactive rather than
because people can say my intuition
has taken me, you know,

(07:40):
wrong path in the past, but then you
can question, but were you really
listening to your intuition?
Exactly.
That's so true.
It's like people will say like, oh,
I trusted my gut and it's like,
well, there's subtleties
to the intuition.
This is not like, especially when
you haven't really developed this
skill, it's not going to beat you
over the head.
Like mine now.
Yes, it is immediate.

(08:00):
I know I've trusted it.
It is so clear.
But when you are just starting, it
so subtle.
It like this little feeling in your
stomach. It this little tingle that
you get. It a little headache that
coming on. It's this feeling that
like This person is crazy.
People will tell you in their
profile they're crazy.
They will literally tell you they're
crazy and you're not even

(08:21):
listening to it.
And I'm not saying don't go on the
date because of that, but it's like,
OK, just file that as part of the
information.
And then as you get to know
the person and you build that, you
know, add to that file.
But it's so true.
Daniel, people are like, oh, I
listen. No, you're.
Not really. You have to get quiet.
or a second...
to get quiet. Or it's like those
classic like you know comedy

(08:42):
sketches where you listen to like
like the first few words of the
message and you run so it's that
your intuition is like well Daniel
she's cute she's good I'm sorry he's
like no but however she's crazy she
says right there she's great well
I'm not listening anymore you said
she's
Exactly.
She looks hot in a bikini.
She says she's crazy, but she looks
hot in a bikini.
Here are her six bikini photos.
And oh, my God, like I'm like, oh,

(09:03):
I'm into it. Yeah.
You know, yeah.
So people aren't really listening.
And this is a skill just like
everything else, like everything
else, going to the gym, like working
out, like learning how to write,
like learning, how to sell whatever
you want to do.
You it's a skill you develop and
it's not automatic.
We all have it.
OK, we all have people always ask
me, how do you develop that?
Well, we have it but it's a skill

(09:24):
set to develop it, especially
in love, especially
in dating, because we
as humans want to connect, right?
We want to be in love.
We want have
all these experiences with another
human.
And so it is a subtle
way of how do you develop that?

(09:45):
I mean,
some people's gut tell them the
wrong thing, okay?
Their knee-jerk reaction does
not allow them to explore
a wider array
of tastes.
I have so many girlfriends
who's immediate gut.

(10:05):
tells them to swipe left on
just about everybody.
Or their gut tells
them that the only way they
will feel like they have been taken
out on a date is if they go
to like some four-star restaurant.
an outsider looking in,
I'm like, girl, your gut needs

(10:26):
to be in alignment.
Take it to Firestone,
get it realigned because it's kind
of steering you down the wrong path.
So maybe I should understand what
you mean by trusting your gut.
But that, well, what you brought up,
Gina, kind of comes brings me to one
of my second points is like, you
know, what's the problem right now
is that nobody is actually
going out on dates.

(10:46):
They're not going out and dates that
much because they're swiping.
They're swapping. And so it's like,
what, you know, a couple of the
other points is, like, go out on the
second date because you can't tell
everything on the first date.
And we talked about this before.
It's like do a casual date as
a matchmaker.
I, unless my client demanded it
and some did and they were paying a
lot of money.

(11:07):
I would never set up dinner dates.
I told you this. I am anti-dinner
date for the first date, especially
for a blind date.
So many people have said that.
Absolutely.
I believe in that as well.
I think it makes practical sense
actually because you know
sort of you know planning
ahead and being very
intentional with what outcome

(11:27):
you're looking for it makes perfect
sense to not go and commit yourself
to you know one and a
half two hours with somebody who
like essentially isn't a stranger
right you might have exchanged text
messages and stuff but yeah it makes
sense to me. I mean although like
this is not exact science.
Right, right, right. If you're
feeling it.
But I also think like from my own
personal experience, actually,

(11:47):
when we when we're talking about,
you know, sort of gut reaction, what
we're saying earlier about, Calvin
saying earlier about you know you
really have to listen to your gut.
Sometimes we think we're like we're
having a gut reaction.
We're not. It's more of a
knee jerk reaction, right?
So in the past, in my younger
self, I used to think, I'm
not feeling it.
And I used I used call it chemistry.

(12:07):
Like, I'm not feeling the chemistry.
And I
And I sort of got now at a later
stage in my life, I looked back to
those relations, like, you know,
was I listening to my guy because
because obviously I did not listen
to it completely because I'm still
thinking about those people and
said, had I given it some chance,
yes, could have developed into
something because, you know, I hate
to say my parents were right and
they were not.

(12:27):
They were not, but there was
some truth to what they were saying,
because it was based on their life
experience because they were saying
look for it was their
way of saying looking look for
somebody you're compatible with.
And their understanding of
compatibility was having the same
Korean heritage to this in the
language, et cetera.
And so on that note, I think they
were wrong, but they were right

(12:48):
that now I do value
compatibility so much more
than chemistry.
So chemistry fizzles away.
Chemistry is great for the first
three, four, five months if you're
lucky for a couple of years, but
chemistry inevitably, like
if you don't have compatibility, if
you are lucky, you have the
chemistry and the compatibility is
there too. But if you only have
chemistry, it doesn't carry.

(13:08):
Whereas if you have compatibility
and you're able to just to
develop chemistry over time that
lasts you much longer, I think
It's so true.
You asked, you know, kind of trends
that I saw or things that I saw in
doing this work.
And that's exactly it.
People came to the company,
spent a lot of money per date, and
then expect that we
are going to be able to find this,

(13:30):
you know, needle in a haystack
chemistry. All the time.
People are like, I didn't feel
chemistry.
I didn' feel chemistry, it's like a
lot of the times I don't think
people understand what chemistry
is. And I don' think they
actually understand what connection
is. And they're looking for this,
like we mentioned, this rom-com idea
of like boy meets girl, girl meets
boy, boy, boy, girl, fall

(13:51):
in love, you know, have sex on
the first date. And it's like, it's
not like that.
And that doesn't last.
And I always encouraged everybody,
including what I would say to your
viewers, is you've got to go
on the second or more dates.
Unless something egregious happens,
you have got to give people another

(14:11):
chance. Like I had a client.
She's like, I always would encourage
all my clients on this, especially
because you're paying all this money
for to go through this process.
The feedback is decent.
You liked him, he liked you, vice
versa. I'm just gonna talk about
heterosexual dates on this
podcast just to keep it simple.
And it's like...
And then you're like, no, he
asks you or you say like,

(14:33):
he wants to go on a second date
because that's how our feedback
would work. And then they don't go.
And I'm like, why?
Oh, I don't feel the chemistry.
You people, okay,
I'm talking to your listeners out
there. Most people do
not know in the first date.
Everyone thinks they do.
They come to matchmaking and they
think, I know.
But I have so many examples of when
I push my clients to go out on the

(14:54):
second date, go out in the third
date, keep it casual, keep it
light, and then they end up falling
in love.
Because you cannot see all
these pieces and facets of
a person.
on a first date and especially,
sorry, Gina, but not on a dinner
date. It's too much pressure.
I think it's too much pressure if
it's like Daniel set you up and you
both kind of knew each other knew

(15:16):
the person that he's setting you up
with. That's different, okay, but a
complete stranger on a dating app.
Yeah, because there's a little bit
of work done already there, but
yeah.
It's too much pressure on a dating
app. It's to much pressure.
You just need to do light, bright
and simple.
Yeah, but I love food, you know, so
I.
So then you're going for the
food. I'm going for food, okay?

(15:37):
Wayna Gina's heart is gone to
dinner.
That's right!
I have no fuzzy feelings about
coffee.
I do have fuzzy feelings
about Japanese curry.
There you go, there you go.
Yeah. And that's fine to make that
known. And, you know, if you
were my client and I'm coaching you,
I'd be like, it's on the
dinner date.
I don't want to sound like an old
cynical person but um the

(15:59):
idea of love at first sight seems
awesome but it's just
a practically speaking unrealistic
it's an anomaly it's not gonna
happen actually even if you do find
love at foresight and you say you
uh you know love fall
in love passionately with somebody
at first site and then you end up
spending the rest of your life with
them i don't think it's necessarily
because you found love i believe

(16:21):
that you Thank you for all your
love. but you actually love that
person because over time you learn
more, right?
And so there's no such thing as, as
love at first sight.
There's love at the first sight that
if you're lucky enough develops into
love, but love at First Sight is
usually lust at first site and
then the last kind of, you know, and
the longer I live in the longer,
like I am so convinced that that's

(16:41):
true, you know, And it really has to
be given time.
Well, my so my life is
a reflection of the opposite of
that, believe it or not.
So I've been married, I been
engaged and then pseudo engaged
another time.
The one that I was engaged to where
I broke off the relationship before
I got married was
somebody that I actually knew for

(17:02):
like four years.
We were colleagues.
And then, you know, an incident
happened in my life and he called to
see if I was okay, and then.
we started a relationship that way
after four years of working
together.
And then we got together.
So we knew each other very well by
the time we were, you know, like
hooking up and then we engaged.

(17:22):
And then ultimately I was just like,
oh my God, he is so the
wrong person for me.
Because when we got into a
relationship, all these parts of him
came out that I never knew
before. Like he was intensely
jealous. I mean, why would he show
jealousy when we're colleagues,
right? So like.
And then he started saying things
like, oh, so after we get married,

(17:43):
you are not going to be going out to
lunch with your girlfriends because
I'm now your husband and you should
be going out with me, like all kinds
of shit where I was like.
So wait, let me ask you a
controversial question, Gina,
seriously, going back to what we
first started this conversation
with. In those four years,
did you ever have any kind
of inkling, something, something in

(18:03):
your body telling you like, no,
maybe not, maybe he's not the
right one, but you kept going.
Oh, are you talking about when we're
in the relationship or doing the
four years that we were colleagues?
Oh, no, during the relationship
like before the before that many
red flags.
Many red flags. Yes, many red flags
during the relationship.
Before you got engaged?
Yeah, like, a couple red flags

(18:25):
before we got engaged, and then more
red flags, many, many more reds
after we got
red lights after we got engaged.Yeah, but then you cut the
cord once you realize but but
that to me actually that that
is an affirmation of what we're
talking about because you got to
know them better there was no
chemistry or you
know sort of the lust part you
you had known each other so you got
know each other well as colleagues

(18:46):
but once you got to know him better
as a lover then you're like oh
no like you you trusted your
intuition right so it wasn't
a case of of love at first sight.
Yeah, I mean, it wasn't even
intuition. It was like more like
like every flag was red
flags.
That is part of
intuition. There were like so manyred
flags, like I couldn't see him
through the red flags
see him through the red flags. You'llbe

(19:07):
surprised though and I'll be the
first one to admit I mean I saw a
lot of red flags with uh you know
my my daughter's mom uh
and she's a she's a wonderful person
there's nothing wrong with her as a
person but I you know if
I'm honest with myself look in
hindsight we were not right for each
other yeah yeah um
and went ahead with it anyway
because the invitations had already

(19:28):
got I like stupid things like You
know, the catering is already done.
Yeah, it's stupid and
and and all what more are my parents
gonna say?
Yeah. Yeah. Yep. So many people
So many people, it's not stupid,
Daniel.
Just keep moving forward.
Yeah, so many people that I've
talked to like they were standing at
the altar and they were like they
knew it was wrong And then they went
through with it
Yep, yep.
Because it takes massive amount of
guts to basically stand there or go

(19:49):
to your parents or go to society or
your family or your friends and cut
it. Like that takes massive amounts
of balls and people like they're
just like, oh, I'll make it work.
I'll figure it out.
Yeah, I'll just suck it up.
And it's like, no, we're not
at that place.
Like we have a finite period of
time on this planet.
We've got to like go for it.
And we got to enjoy our life.
You know, and so if you're sensing

(20:11):
that you've got had learned to
pay attention to that soon.
It's like, you know, that book like
Fail Fast, right?
Like, yeah.
So there is a very famous
relationship expert and she
used to be head of dating at
Hinge and she wrote a book, Logan
Urie. I love her book.
I recommend it to everybody.
It's called How Not to Die Alone.
And chapter seven is, can I

(20:32):
cuss on this?
Of course, we encourage it.
Fuck the spark.
And it's so true what you're saying
because she's talking about how
this idea of like this like lust
and up. But no, it's really like,
how are you gonna get along with
this person? How are they gonna be
when the shit hits the fan and
you're in the hospital or something
happens with your parents or
something with your kid?
Like that's what you really wanna

(20:53):
start to look for and look at
is like, and this is like one of my
other big points.
It's like the spark is great,
like you mentioned, and I'm not
saying don't have any spark.
but the compatibility, if that's
what you're looking for.
If you're just looking to have fun
and you just want to fuck around,
that's a whole different
conversation, right?
But if you're serious about getting
into a love relationship and

(21:15):
building something with somebody,
then you need to look at that
compatibility factor.
And that thing that I call, it's
like what we were talking about
before, it's my mom used to call it
making jello.
You could just do nothing with the
person. You could make jello with
the personally and you could feel
happy and fulfilled and satisfied.
You don't have to be.
traveling the world and going to the
Four Seasons, you can be with

(21:36):
someone in a room and feel really
good and be silent.
You know, it's like, if you're
looking for a long-term relationship
that you think you want to
last, this is what you
should be focusing on, is like,
how compatible am I with this person
and how comfortable do
I feel? Do I feel like myself?
You know? Do I I feel good?
Yeah. Well, okay.

(21:57):
So to that point, I hate to be the
naysayer. I'm not.
I know you probably think Daniel
because you know me very well.
I never think you're a naysayor.
Shut up.
So I am like,
almost the living example of
the antithesis of that, not only
because of my example
that I already gave of my colleague,

(22:18):
but because I
was in another relationship
for eight years.
and he was everything
a girl could ask for,
okay? Like super sweet,
vulnerable, like just
amazing, amazing human,
being loved to travel, super smart,
like had an amazing job.

(22:40):
Like on paper, he was just great
and we knew each other like hand and
foot. Like we had no problem with
bodily functions around each other.
We were like totally two
peas in a pod.
Like before I said anything-
making jello.
We were making jello, we could be
silent. We could be talking.
After year five,

(23:00):
I was like,
I think I'm going to have a
migraine. I think, I have a migrate
today. I think have a my grain
tomorrow. I don't think we can have
sex today.
I don' think I want you to come any
near me.
I'm going to have migraine for the
next five months.
I'm gonna have a migraine until we
break up.
And somehow we just
completely lost the chemistry.
I say we, but really it was just me.

(23:22):
He even got me a
book called, you know, The Art
of Kissing.
And he bought me a highlighter
and he goes, you know, because you
don't like to kiss me anymore, can
you highlight the sections that
you'd like me to work on?
Like, this is how amazing this
guy was.
And I was just like, oh, my God,
after this, like, I just at least
have to try.

(23:43):
I have to tried to fall back
in love again.
But like every time he leaned
forward, I would just be like, my
body would just like sometimes
I would try to force myself to
like lean back into him.
But there was like this invisible,
like magnetic force where like
the negative and the negative were
trying to come together.
And one time, I swear to

(24:04):
God, I felt my body like just
go Like like just
like go back,
almost like I was repulsed by this
guy that I'd already been with.
Let's hope this guy's not listening
to this podcast. I know, I know.
Right.
So like everything, like you
were saying, the connection was
super deep.
I don't

(24:24):
think that's necessarily an example
of an antithesis of what we're
talking about.
Not everybody you're compatible
with, you're going to have chemistry
with at the end of the day.
But I'm saying chemistry without
chemist-
I submit to you,
it is impossible.
Right, but so that's why we're
not saying it's compatibility
versus chemistry.
What we're saying is, chemistry

(24:45):
doesn't always lead to
compatibility, right?
Well, I mean, yeah.
I mean of course, and compatibility
doesn't always lead to chemistry.
but I think what we're saying is
because we have been conditioned by
romcoms and like all this idea and
cinder we think we're looking for
that spark and maybe that's not the
way to go about it right you look
for compatibility and it doesn't
mean that if you go this way you're

(25:06):
going to strike a hundred it just
means that this is a better way to
do about it so in that in your
particular case it didn't work out
but what we are saying is
but going for the spark only
only is a recipe for
disaster I don't think
I don't think there's one, I don'
know one girlfriend of mine.
I mean, we're all looking for the

(25:27):
whole package.
And I'm telling you, some of your
friends are lying to you.
Yes. And they're not honest with
themselves for the whole package.
They're not honest when they say
like, oh, I'm looking for the spark.
And like what Daniel saying, they're
lying. They're not they're not being
honest with themselves because most
people are not self aware enough to
understand. And they haven't sat
back and thought about what

(25:48):
it is they want.
So I'm not saying don't have
any spark. I'm saying go on the
second date.
See if the third date, fourth date,
casual, see if it develops, don't
just swipe left.
Don't just say no when they ask you
out, don't ghost them when they
asked you out for the second date
because you're like, I didn't feel
it. I've seen so many stories
where, and I've see this firsthand

(26:10):
where it developed and they actually
ended up having a lot in common and
the spark developed.
Right now, the way we are in the
world, post COVID, people are just
trying to figure out how to get back
in person and date.
People don't even know what the
fricking spark is right now.
You know, and it's like we're having
to relearn all of these things.
A lot of people are.
And so it's like you can't just

(26:31):
discount somebody because you didn't
feel this like unicorn and rainbow
on the first date, you
know, as you're sitting at your
dinner.
You know you're saying given the
benefit of the doubt, give it, give
people the chance unless you
see a bunch of red flags, in which
case.
to trust your gut.
Then run for the mountain.
Then, okay.
Yeah, and if it's like.
And if it's like, you're just
feeling like this person is unsafe,

(26:51):
this person is crazy, or
this person super jealous, and you
can sense those things.
And it's the approach, and no,
your friends are your friends, but
I...
You are one of my friends.
No, no, I'm saying like when you
say, I don't have any friends who
are just looking for
the spark.
But when I say and I'm speaking
generically here that people are
lying to themselves because I hear

(27:12):
so often people who say.
No, I'm looking for something called
I'm looking for connections.
So how do you go about it?
It's like, well, he has to be five
foot 11.
He has to do this.
He has be this. None of what you're
telling me tells me that you're
looking for connection.
It tells me you're looking for the
spark. for the guy who gets
you all thrilled.
the physical.
And it can be physical.
It can be. But it's like.

(27:33):
But everything that you telling me
is about the spark you're looking
for that your spark to go off, not
necessarily to find a connection,
even though they say they're looking
for a connection.
So it's. And I don't think that
they're lying to themselves, I just
don't think that there are aware
because again, I blame this
on society and dating apps,
because we have been conditioned to
think about this. And that's the
matrix is what we need to break away

(27:55):
from. Yeah, it's because we've been
conditioned to think that
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(28:38):
I understand the nuances that
you guys are addressing here.
Like going back to matchmaking,
people would come to us because they
were very disillusioned with the
apps or they couldn't be on the apps
or they were
married for 12 years and had no idea
how to date or their widow or
something. But then they come to
broken from whatever
the thing is and then they

(29:00):
pay a lot of money to hire
a matchmaker.
And then they think, oh,
because I'm paying all this
money, they're going to be
able to find me is perfect
or Mr. Perfect.
You're going to find me the spark.
and they're constantly thinking I
couldn't find the spark out there or
don't know how to find the spark out
here and I'm going to pay you

(29:20):
X a lot and then you
are going to find me the spark and
you it's your job to find,
me the broken pieces to
pick and cobble the pieces together
to present to this person
that you want because you
think you're paying a lot of money.
And your answer to that is,
it's you.
The problem is you.

(29:41):
I have a perfect real-life example.
I have a younger brother who's
happily married and been married
to the same woman, has two beautiful
children, has been married for now I
say like almost 25-30 years.
Wow.
And I love my sister-in-law.
She's like perfect for him.
I think she's, I think my brother's
a total loser.
I'm just kidding.
Had he not married Sophia, he would

(30:01):
have been a total looser.
But, so I'm the oldest.
And as the oldest son of Korean
immigrants, my parents were always
trying to like, you know,
set me up with a nice Korean girl.
And I resisted so much.
I'm like, you don't know me.
How you guys, you don' know me,
right? And so now in
hindsight, I'm thinking like, of
course they know me And the worst
that could have happened if I went

(30:22):
on those blind dates that my parents
were trying to set me up with is
that I would have just met someone
and maybe it would have worked out.
Maybe it wouldn't have, but why did
I have this inherent?
So like this, that's bad.
That's not how, that not how sparks
started. That's that's so
unromantic. Whereas my brother,
when he got set up through friends
of my parents and friends to say,
Oh, she'll be perfect for your son.
He met her and it's

(30:43):
funny because my brother and I are
so different. Like I've always been
the straight and narrow, I got good
grades in school, and he was all
over the place. But when it came to
this particular thing,
he's like, when my parents said,
meet this girl, he went and met her.
And then he had her go on
dates, like, so quote unquote, dates
with all of his friends, like female
friends and male friends.
And then ask them,

(31:04):
do you think she's compatible with
me? What do you see about this?
What do what?
Dude, he went through this whole
process and proof is
in the pudding.
He's been married all these years
and I'm divorced.
Yeah, because I was looking for the
spark and I found the spark and
it was great for a little while.
Yeah, you know, and then it wasn't
there anymore.
Ding ding ding.
My brother's story is similar, and

(31:25):
he got set up.
They were both at a wedding.
My sister-in-law is perfect for my
brother. They've also been married
for 25 years
or something.
And they got set-up, and
they figured it out, and they
have been happily ever after
married.
And it was like the set-
up, you know, back in the day, all
these Indian, South Asian,

(31:46):
they do arrange marriages, and
it freaking works.
And this is one of the tips I have
for your listeners.
If somebody sets you up or
volunteers to set you up or says,
Daniel, go meet this girl on the
corner of Lincoln and Maxilla at
three o'clock, if they know you
at all, you just say yes and you go.
Hmm
That's like one of the things that
we talked about, the three of us,

(32:06):
it's like, go on the date,
just go.
You don't have to like do, you
know, this like- What does he do?
Where does he live?
Does he have a house?
Exactly, 10 questions, spreadsheets,
photos, profiles.
No, if they know you and they're
willing to do that, absolutely,
just on the day and just
make it casual and just get to

(32:28):
know somebody and just look at it
like I always tell people, a
conversation with a new friend.
That's it, you're not trying to
figure out if this is like your baby
mama or your baby daddy or your
next, you know, whatever,
love relationship. Your only job
on the first date is to
see how you feel in the
presence of this person.
You're not tryna figure out
anything. Stop the madness.

(32:50):
Stop trying to find out their FICO
score. Stop trying figure out
like how many people they've
been with or how many relations.
That doesn't matter.
Just be in the moment and
feel into your soul like.
how am I feeling, you know,
and take responsibility for
your feelings and say like, oh, I'm
feeling like really happy and like
lighthearted and I feel good, that's

(33:11):
energy.
You are just trying to sense
the energy of you and this person.
That's the other problem with dating
and dating apps right now is
everyone's trying to figure out
everything way too soon.
Back in the day when our parents
probably got together, it was like
letters, it was maybe
some phone calls.
over periods of time and then

(33:32):
a couple of dates and then some
casual dates. And then it took time
and you kind of unveiled, you
know, like all of these things about
yourself. It wasn't just like, bam,
like let me ask them all these
questions.
Yes, instant gratification.
Yeah, so I can get out of this
dinner or so I can go on to the next
way.
Yeah, that's where the fairy tales
come into like all the all the sort
of the conditioning that we've had
through fairy tales Everybody's so

(33:53):
in a hurry to get to the happily
ever after
Mm-hmm. It's like, I don't wanna s-
There's a whole fucking life after
happily ever after, you know,
Cinderella probably divorced the
Prince, you know, after five, 10
years, you know, we just don't know
because the story ended when they
were both young and beautiful and
love, you know, that's where it
ends.
Okay, so what I'm hearing from you
is trust your gut and,

(34:15):
you know, give somebody the benefit
of the doubt.
What other observations?
Go on the date.
Go on the date, yeah.
make it casual, have
some fun.
Like everything is just way too
serious right now.
Like you've just got to like get out
there and like have fun and meet
people and put yourself out there.
And, you know, one of the main,

(34:35):
main things is please work
on yourself.
Like I also
another book that I would recommend
to all my clients and I recommend to
everybody is The Four Agreements by
Don Miguel Ruiz.
One of the two agreements for dating
particularly are, don't take
anything personally and don't make
assumptions.
Everybody is so busy taking

(34:56):
everything personally and making
assumptions. He didn't call me, he
must not like me.
You don't know how many calls I've
been on with people.
No, we have no idea what's going
on in his life or her life.
We don't
We don't know if something happened.
We don' know what is going on.
It's not, you're just assuming
that the reason that they didn't
call is because they don't like you.
You have no idea.
Because if you go into, this is

(35:17):
energy. If you go in to anything
in life and you are hating it,
you are not gonna get the result
that you are seeking.
If you're serious. You're alreadystarting from
a negative. If you are serious.
You know, as you're saying that I
thought occurs to me, I'm wondering
if there's something happening in
our modern times where sort of we
have stopped distinguishing
fantasy from from reality.
And before we knew Cinderella was

(35:38):
fantasy to a certain extent.
And now because of social media,
like I just recently read an
article about this social
media influencer.
She's a housewife in Utah.
Her husband is the son of
the founder of JetBlue.
So these are like, just wealthy
people in general, right.
And her social, she has
like millions of followers on
Instagram. And she's like a sale on

(36:00):
their Mormons.
So they have a dairy farm, she makes
her own cheese So there was this
article in the New York Times and
Wall Street Journal where people are
hating on her.
Like there are two camps, like
traditionalist conservatives who
love this image of
the conservative wife who stays home
and makes bread from scratch
and stuff, right?
And then, so there are people who
are like, you are, you

(36:22):
know, perpetuating stereotypes
It's about like, you know.
you know, antiquated ideas about
women's role in society.
This is bad, you're stereotyping
women. And some on the other camp
goes, no, she's a perfect example.
And I'm like, both of you shut the
fuck up. It's not real.
It's real, it's Instagram.
Does she show you going to the
bathroom and having diarrhea because

(36:42):
of the milk, you know that was not
pasteurized? You don't see that.
You know, like you see the husband,
like, you know waking up with pee
in his underpants.
No, you don't, you now.
I was trying to figure out what's
the least romantic perfect
image that I can come up

(37:04):
with. That can come up with it, yeah.
Pee in her pants.
That's a red flag. That's the red
flag, that's the flag.
You should not go after that.
Sounds like a medical...
That's not medical.
He has a medical
problem. That's a good one.
See you in the medical guy.
I hear you.
I hear.
But that social media, what we think
is reality. True.
That's so true. Even reality TV, the
Kardashians, that's not their real
life. Exactly.
It's scripted.
It's for our consumption.

(37:25):
And I think because we have
such a preponderance of that and
people think that social media is
reality, in
a subconscious way, when we're
dating apps, That's why dating apps
are so, because again, it's like the
swiping and the gamification and
like sort of you would turn people
into these objects.
And it's so really hard to get to
that connectivity, you know, part.
Well, do you have any solutions?

(37:46):
Have you thought of a
way out?
I was thinking about this on the way
over and, you know,
Jean and I went to UCLA and I was
thinking about this quote that I
always lived by John Wooden,
the the winningest NCAA basketball
coach in history.
And he has this quote, Do not
do not mistake activity for
achievement. OK, I

(38:08):
love this.
I love that quote too.
Because this is what is happening
with dating.
Mm-hmm.
You think you are on this app,
you think, you know, you're getting
these likes or you're swiping
or you are standing in the Starbucks
line and you're swipe, swipe, swipe
and you are like, oh, I'm doing
something to find my
person. I'm do something about my
dating life, my romantic life.

(38:31):
If that is what you are doing,
you are not in the right frame.
to be truly, I'm talking about
people that really want a
relationship, okay?
If you just wanna fuck around and
you just want to hook up, that one,
that's something different.
But if you really want relationship,
you have got to work on yourself
first.
Come as whole as you can
to the field, right?

(38:51):
And so look at your shadows, work on
your shadows. Understand your
triggers. Figure out some
self-awareness before you
even get on this dating app.
That's what I would say, number one.
Number two.
You've got to just get out there
and go on casual dates and just
meet people.
It's a muscle.
It's just like everything else.

(39:12):
It gets easier over time.
You start to practice.
You learn how to flow.
You learn to say, thank you so much.
I just don't feel like this is the
right match after you've gone on a
couple of dates or you've really
seen the things that you really need
to see.
Then you learn how not ghost.
You learn, how to be a real human
because we have got to stop this
ghosting. If there is one thing

(39:32):
I would love your listeners and
viewers to stop now.
Everybody just take some
responsibility and text that person
back or call that person back or
send a voice text or send an email.
There's a thousand ways to say,
thank you so much.
I just really don't see that this
is, you know, this is not the
direction that I am wanting to go

(39:52):
or I just really don t see this
connection really panning
out or just say something.
There is a way to say everything
exactly.
Exactly.
Exactly. So we've got to stop that
ghosting.
And then third is like,
we've gotta have fun.
You really have got to
have fun again in dating.
And if you find yourself hating

(40:12):
it, being very
negative about it, you know,
sitting on the phone with your
friends complaining about it for two
hours.
Stop the madness.
Starting a podcast about it.
That's another way of coping.
That's a great way of coping.
Stop the madness!
Step back!
It's entertaining.
Yeah, but but I think you

(40:34):
guys are really helping people
because you're talking about these
issues that people don't have
someone to talk With about but
step back really stop the
apps take a break and
until you can get in the frame of
mind to be excited And
positive and see what
you have to offer and what you had
to share and be open
to truly meaning someone that might

(40:56):
not have the checklist and might not
have the FICO score and might not be
six foot tall, ladies,
please stop with the six feet tall.
Stop with the hyper requirement.
The hype thing is crazy.
It's insanity. Yeah, it's crazy!
So if until you can get to that
place of feeling good in your
own center about
dating, please do yourself
a favor and don't go on the

(41:18):
apps.
Because it is everything
is energy and you are
basically putting in
more negative energy into this
field of already just
very challenging times
and very challenging energy and
you're not helping yourself
and you are not helping anybody

(41:38):
else.
I almost went on a date with
the guy who just
sounded amazing and he
looked great and like he was
saying all the right things.
And then he goes, by
the way,
I have, what was it?
I have four kids from three
different moms.

(41:58):
And I was like, okay.
I mean, that's a little bit of a red
flag for me. I'm not gonna
completely count you out because I
don't know what kind of life you've
had or whatever.
Whatever.
I know, right.
At some point in the process, baby
mama number two, did you think about
it? But anyway, so I was just like,
okay, I'm not going to like, you
know, super judge you right now.
Let's let's hear more.

(42:18):
And then after a couple
more conversations predate,
okay, never went out with the guy.
Um, he told me that his
last long term girlfriend
of like a year and a half.
He just broke up with a month
ago.
And that was ultimately
the nail in the coffin.
I was just like, okay, so you

(42:38):
have three baby mamas and four
kids.
And then you had a long-term
relationship that you got out of a
month ago.
So you're just like not wanting to
learn anything about yourself or
what happened and like
break this down to see how you can
avoid making these things
happen again.
Which brings me like to another
solution that I have.
I know that, you know, we wanna give

(42:59):
tips for your viewers and listeners.
I think Gina disagrees with me on
this, but get to
the video date.
Stop the madness with all the
texting through the app. I do video
dates, yeah.
If you have any inclination that,
oh, I'm kinda curious, just kinda
curious. Get to the videodate.
And we used to say in the
matchmaking business, one of my

(43:20):
friends, not real, not ready.
If they don't wanna go on the video
date with you or they don' wanna go
and meet you, not real not ready,
like I don't care like how amazing.
I've got a question.
So specifically on video data, you
mean as opposed to like a phone
call?
No, yes, I'm a fan of
like the video day.
to the video date.
How about like a
casual coffee meet as opposed to

(43:41):
a video date?
That's okay too, but I'm just
a fan of like, get to the video
date because you might not even
necessarily need the coffee.
But is that because you want to see
their mannerisms and what
they look physically like?
Yeah, and I teach people about
energy.
And you can sense a lot of
things via video on
energetically for sure You can see a
lot Of things and I know that might

(44:02):
sound like controversial or like
against what I said earlier about
giving everybody a chance But you
can sensed things and your gut will
tell you things when you go on that
video date Your gut will be firing
like scary scary danger
danger or you know, you'll you'll
just sense things like That's
one of the ways that I would you
know make the matches because I was
interviewing all these people on
zoom So if you see their house is

(44:24):
just like a complete shit show of
like like there's piles of
shit everywhere I mean, that's like
a pretty good indication if you are
a very clean organized person
or if you don't even have the sense
to hide that with an angle.
or you come on the video date and
you just look completely disheveled
and they look drunk and it's
like 10 a.m.
It's just like 100%.

(44:45):
So those are the things that I'm
saying, I'm not saying go on a date
with that person. I'm saying like,
okay, we kind of cut to the chase a
little bit with the video date.
But what is happening now, it's just
too much texting on the app.
I personally think being drunk at 10
a.m. is the best time, you know,
then you're done with it
Best time of the day to be drunk

(45:07):
Well, Carolyn, this has been super
great and helpful.
And now I can see why you are a
matchmaker to all these people.
I think everybody's very different,
but I think what you
say, if somebody just
gave somebody a second chance, if
somebody did a gut check
before they made summary

(45:28):
judgments, if they took the
time to reflect on themselves and
work on themselves, which I think
are the three things that you
absolutely harped on.
you can't go wrong, so
I think that's pretty valuable.
And really have fun.
Really, we've got to get back
to fun with dating.
Get the fuck out there.
Yes, we got to have fun with dating.
Don't make every excuse to stay

(45:49):
home. Yeah, it's supposed to be fun,
people. It really is.
It is really supposed to be fun.
fun. I know that matchmaking is not
for everybody, partly because,
you know, it's just the nature of
the beast.
It costs money and not everybody
financially can afford it.
And I've got a confession to make.
I mean, we've had matchmakers in the
past here and
I had
a negative perception of matchmakers

(46:11):
because I thought it was just like a
different version of dating apps.
But you did change
my mind.
I don't think every matchmaker is
like you in that sense, but
matchmaking done right is basically
that it's about trying to help
someone see something that they
can't see because of the new jerk
reaction or because of the quick

(46:31):
judgment that people make and we're
so used to doing it these days it's
like having another set of vibes
somebody who's informed trying to
tell you Gina Daniel like
i've taken the time
to get to know you i've
done the homework for you and i'm
gonna go and find people that i
think is gonna be a bit like trust
somebody outside of you to find
instead of like Going back
to your

(46:54):
habits that you've had for decades
and decades, you know, so from that
sense, I think it makes perfect
sense.
I appreciate that.
And I'm really glad that I could
change your viewpoint on that,
because I think we all
need to become matchmakers for our
friends and family.
And if somebody wants to set
you up, I'm telling you, just go
meet the person. They're the best
people. Yeah.
Like, if you guys want to set me up,

(47:14):
I will go meet on the corner of
the market.
So it's just like.
Honestly, if somebody wants to do
that for you, thank them with
gratitude and just meet the person.
Unless none of my friends are good
enough for you, so.
Yeah
I know
lots of amazing women.
I'd set you up with each other.
There you go.
That may be the future. That may bethe future.
Women's brunch.

(47:35):
That might be the future.
There's not going to be male and
female. We're just going to be all
one.
just going to be all one if youlisten
to Gina long enough that is the
future because it doesn't seem like
she can find any guy out there who's
worthy of
I mean, I have
in the past, you know, I've been
married, I've been engaged.
it's just a different ballgame
now.
I have no idea whether this is

(47:55):
I have no idea whether this isbaseball,
basketball, football, I have not
fucking clue.
But but in all seriousness, though,
I mean, you know, we talk about in
the podcast that that dating apps
are just a tool.
It's not they're not inherently good
or bad. Right.
And I think in all serious, Gina
Gina goes about it with
intentionality.
It just said, there's so
much crap to wade
through. Well, you yourself

(48:16):
Well, you yourself have said you
don't have one guy that
you would match with me.
Yeah, because I know they're not see
because not but it has nothing
to do in joking aside I mean, I
love my friends and I think they're
good people but again because now I
know you and I know them and I Know
it's like I don't know anybody that
would actually be a good match for
you, right?
Yeah, not but not because you you're

(48:37):
there's any deficiency on you or any
deficiency my friends It's just
that like, you know, you met my
friend. Yeah, you made my friend
alex I think he's a wonderful guy.
I think she's gonna make somebody a
great partner But he's probably not
a great, you're not a right person
for sure. Yeah But
but that is actually who
knows you better than the people
around you. Yeah
and tell everybody you're single.

(48:58):
Really, I always would coach all my
clients to do that.
You've got to tell people that
you're open to meeting somebody.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Otherwise they don't know.
Exactly, they come to the matchmaking
service and they're like, I would.
So we are a coach.
We really are a Coach.
Matchmakers are coaches.
That's why it's in alignment with
what I do.
It was like, well, I say, have you
told everybody that you are single?
Oh no, I can't do that!

(49:19):
Oh, but you can come to a
matchmaking service, pay all of this
money for a stranger that's going to
talk to you, me, who's going to get
to know you, but then I'm going to
set you up with a stranger.
But you can't tell your
family, your friends, that you are
open to being set up.
Those are the best avenues of
potential dates for you.
Yeah, yeah
because that is gonna spark their
memory and be like, oh yeah, I have

(49:41):
that person that loves scuba diving
and plays football and loves travel.
Oh, okay, let me just set you up.
And the reason why people don't set
other people up is because
it's too much pressure.
But if we took that out and
just said, meet on the corner at
this place for a walk
with the wind blowing and
just this casual walk.

(50:01):
And then it was very easy for people
to set people up and they don't have
to exchange photos and dossiers and
CVs.
They would go.
Isn't that the sort of like, you
know, going back to what I was
saying earlier about, you know, when
I was younger, my parents trying to
set me up, right?
No, no. Oh, that's so gross.
No, it's like, Daniel, how's your
love life going? How many dates have
you gone out in the last three
months?
I am so lonely, I don't have

(50:22):
anybody.
And then meanwhile, there are all
these people who try to set you up,
even actually, because you have this
knee jerk reaction, even when my
friends try to send me up and no,
no, I'm not that desperate and then
back on my mind, I think, no I am
the desperate actually, I
should listen to my friends, right?
Because how are you doing Daniel?
How, you know, nowadays, dude, how
are doing the dating apps?
Oh, my God, like I'm striking out or

(50:43):
it's like Can I set you up?
No, no, no. I'm not that desperate.
not going to do that.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's a sort of this idea that
people have. Yes, it is.
Mindset, mindset.
Yes, I don't need help.
Yes, it's this mindset shift that wehave to shift. I don't need help.
Yeah, we all need help, like I'm
super big. Like if I want to learn
to be a better pickleball player or
a better chef, I hire somebody.
I hire a coach.
I think that that's the best way,

(51:03):
the fastest way to get to where you
want to be.
Don't do the pickleball though.
Pickleball is evil.
Don't
No, I'm
deep in. I'm already too
late.
Well, Carolyn, thank you so much for
your time. You're welcome.
This was a lot of fun.
Yeah, it was. That's another
successful episode of I Hate Dating
App.
Yes, you can't love with them.
And you can't love without them.

(51:24):
Till next time.

(51:52):
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iHateDatingAppsPod.
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