August 8, 2025 • 55 mins
This week on In The Meanwhile, Nora and Marcus catch up with Seattle’s most unexpected threat to billionaire brunch politics, Katie Wilson. She’s a longtime organizer, transit rider, and Americano-splitter who went from dragging mayors in public comment to becoming the mayoral frontrunner herself. Her game plan? No hedge fund sugar daddies, no donor call lists, just a Google form, a ground game, and the radical idea that government should actually work for people. This one is for everyone who’s screamed “Do something!” at their screen, only to realize the person who should do something… might be themselves. It’s equal parts political strategy, Buddhist wisdom, and just enough hope to make every fauxgressive clutch their Chamber of Commerce tote bag in horror.
Mentioned in the episode:
Katie Wilson for Mayor | Voting info in King County |
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Katie Wilson (00:00):
I have spent zero minutes on the phone asking for money.
(00:03):
And instead I'm out there talkingto people on the streets, at the
farmer's market, at the doors, andthat's what all of our campaign
folks and volunteers are doing.
Marcus Harrison Green (00:18):
Welcome back to in the Meanwhile, I'm Marcus Harrison Green,
long suffering journalist, recoveringoptimist, and reluctant political doula
to every friend who's ever texted me.
"Hey, I think I'm gonna run for office,"which is basically the elder millennial
version of "I'm gonna start a band."
Nora Kenworthy (00:35):
And I'm Nora Kenworthy.
Currently serving as a memberof the Underground Railway for
Runaway Texas legislators, um.
And after another spin around thenational news roundup this week,
someone who is about two rage textsaway from turning my group chat into a
super PAC with a new mission statementthat says Absolutely the fuck not.
(00:58):
Um, but Marcus, you forgot to mentionthat you're also the guy who last
year was splitting a single Americano.
Yes, that's right, becausemutual aid and inflation.
Um, but splitting acoffee with today's guest.
And now she may actually be on herway to becoming the mayor of Seattle.
Marcus Harrison Green (01:18):
That is right.
You know, I, I call this the, thebest of the American dream here.
Like one day you're with yourfriend, figure out whether
it's cheaper to get a 16 ounceAmericano and ask for a second cup.
And the next, you're watchingthe same friend crush, the mayor
old primary in Seattle and getcompared to Zohran Mamdani.
Nora Kenworthy (01:38):
For those playing catch up Zohran Mamdani is the New
York assembly member who ran on taxingthe rich housing, the poor, and just
not being so boring, um, and actuallywon a New York City's mayoral race.
So just like today's guest, um,but minus the borough accent.
Marcus Harrison Green: Yeah, I, I gotta say no. (01:56):
undefined
Like I love Katie Wilson,who we're having on today.
But when she first texted me aboutrunning, I assumed it was like a
COVID fever dream or something like,who hasn't fantasized about running
for office while spiraling on X invitamin D deficiency, particularly in
Seattle and then wisely, they're justlike, no, I'm not going to do that.
Nora Kenworthy (02:18):
Right.
I mean, as the saying goes, anyone'ssmart enough to run for offices, is
smart enough to not want the job.
Um.
But as our current government continuesto remind us by the minute we, well man,
we desperately need smart people likeKatie to actually step up and do the job.
Marcus Harrison Green (02:36):
Ranking competence just isn't doing it for you, huh?
No, not so much.
Yeah.
Anyway, the diversityinitiatives are not working right
Nora Kenworthy (02:43):
now.
Marcus Harrison Green (02:43):
I'm telling what do, what do they call 'em?
The, the DUI initiatives thatare, that are going on in the, in
the federal government right now.
Anyhow.
Um, anyway, when she hit me with,Hey, I'm announcing my run next week.
I thought she meant like.
A run run like a 5K, which are verypopular in the city of Seattle.
Even though it rains a ton, likeeverybody is doing a 5K for something,
(03:06):
whether it's mutual aid every weekend.
Yeah.
Or like, you know, dragqueen, you know, bingo hour.
We're trying to fundraisefor that, whatever.
So I'm like, oh, okay.
But no, she was like,mayor of Seattle run.
I was like, oh shit.
Uh, okay, I'm gonna go backthrough all of our text threads and
retroactively label them off the record.
Nora Kenworthy (03:28):
And now Katie Wilson is the progressive front runner
in a city like many blue coastalcities that saw a huge retrenchment
in our progressive politics.
After 2020.
Democrat came to mean somethinglike loves some bike lanes through.
Rich parts of the city and alsoloves militarized homeless sweeps.
(03:50):
Um, so yeah, it's a really big dealthat she, uh, came out so far ahead
in our primary election this week.
Marcus Harrison Green (03:58):
Yeah, I can't tell you there, I don't think that there was
anybody of, at least, there's certainlyno major news outlets here who had her.
You know, finishing the top of theprimary, like, I think everybody, for
the most part thought that she would, youknow, come out as a, a distant second.
But the, the level of surprise and,and slack jaw shock on, you know, the
(04:22):
punditry up in, in Seattle was, it wassomething to behold, uh, that being said.
All jokes aside, Katie just didn'tappear out of nowhere like some brunch
liberals, folklore or something.
She's been doing the damn work for years.
She's been organizing, writing,testifying, dragging policymakers
through the public comment processlike it's her daily cardio session.
(04:44):
She's been on it
Nora Kenworthy (04:46):
and now she's doing what most of us are.
Way too afraid to do, even in theprivacy of our most feral group chats,
she's actually running to fix themess herself without billionaires,
without hedge fund sugar daddies, justunapologetically getting out there to
do the work, um, as a progressive policymaker and serve a lot of tired ass
(05:12):
seattleites who want better for our city.
Marcus Harrison Green (05:15):
Yeah.
Well, I, I certainly knowtoo, right here, uh, I. God.
Yes.
Um, she is very mucha breath of fresh air.
And so today we are talkingto a person who took me from,
this is a fever dream to wait.
This could actually fucking happen.
Seattle mayoral candidate, Katie Wilson.
(05:36):
Yes, she is my friend.
No, I do not cover her as ajournalist, but yes, I can ethically
interview her on this little show.
I co-host with this brillianthuman being to my left.
Nora Kenworthy (05:50):
And so today we're gonna get into what finally made Katie Wilson
say, screw it, I'm running how sheplans to hold power without selling out.
Um, and what the path still isforward for cities like Seattle under.
The crushing weight of the horrors.
(06:10):
Um, yes.
And, and, and without getting likeoverly hyped and hopeful, I do
feel like this episode has a lotof treasures in store for folks in
other places as well as Seattle whohave been waiting for a glimmer of
hope like this for a very long time.
Marcus Harrison Green (06:31):
Absolutely what, what is happening in Seattle
certainly shouldn't stay here.
And without further ado, ifyou are somebody who is asking
yourself, why doesn't someonedo something about all this?
Well, Katie Wilson did.
So let's get into it.
(06:56):
So Katie, there is so many peoplewho I've talked to recently.
Who have considered, you know, runningfor office and, you know, they're not
sure if it's the right time or not.
And, and so I wanna ask you,you know, you've spent years
organizing on the outside writing,agitating, demanding better policy.
What convinced you that this was theright time to step into the system
(07:20):
and run for the city's top job?
Katie Wilson (07:24):
That's a great question, Marcus.
And you know, I've been a communityorganizer now for, you know, 14, 15 years.
And honestly, running for officehas never been an ambition of mine.
Um, and you know, when you do this kindof work over the years, people will
ask you, are you gonna run for office?
And my answer to that has always justbeen like, hell no, that's not my role.
(07:45):
Um.
And yeah, I mean, I've alwaysin the past seen my role as
being on the outside, right?
Building up the power that, um,the power that we need to get
good people elected, hold themaccountable, get good policies passed.
And, um, and I think that, Imean, that's where my heart is in
community organizing always, right?
I, I think that that is how we getgood things done is by, um, you know,
(08:05):
ordinary people coming together and,uh, and, and building that power.
Um.
So things for me shifted prettyquickly, um, early this year, and
I, I've told this story many times,but I'll, I'll tell it again.
So in February we had a, a specialelection on funding Seattle's
new social housing developer.
Right.
And, um, you know, this is a, um, uh, aneffort that started the previous year,
(08:29):
right when Seattle Voters, uh, supportedthe creation of a new social housing
developer to basically pioneer what's.
A little bit of a different model ofaffordable housing that we don't often do
in the us but that's more similar to whatEuropean cities like Paris and Vienna have
done for a long time, where you're tryingto basically build a non-market, um,
housing sector that's a mixed income andpermanently affordable, publicly owned.
(08:54):
So it's this really exciting project.
And so we had a measure on the ballotin February to, uh, fund the new
social housing developer throughattacks on wealthy corporations and.
Our current mayor, Bruce Harrell,um, kind of teamed up with Amazon and
Microsoft and the Chamber of Commerceto support a alternative measure, which
kind of pretended to still supportsocial housing, but really undermined it.
(09:17):
And, uh, you know, his face was plasteredall over mailers that everyone got and.
Honestly, I thought that effortwas gonna succeed, right?
I thought that that people would,uh, be fooled, but they weren't.
And so the, the tax on wealthycorporations passed in a landslide, right?
Seattle voters said very strongly, wewant, um, social housing in Seattle.
(09:38):
And to me that was really exciting.
Um, and it really showed how out ofstep our current mayor is with the
people of Seattle, with the voters.
And it really showed.
I think, you know, people's support forthat measures in part a reflection of the
affordability crisis and the fact thatpeople are really feeling how expensive
it is to live in this city, right?
(09:59):
Rents keep going up.
Housing costs are so high, right?
If you wanna buy a home,it just feels out of reach.
And so I think that.
Um, you know, that really just tippedme over into thinking about running also
because the mayor has a lot of power to,um, make that project succeed or fail.
Right.
Um, I think, uh, the, the city isgonna need to be a really strong
(10:20):
partner with a new social housingdeveloper and identifying land.
Um, you know, to createa land bank in financing.
And so if we have a mayor who's tryingto undermine that project, it could
easily fail in the next four years.
And, you know, when, when governmentdoesn't deliver, people lose faith in it.
And so we really needthat project to succeed.
And so that is, that is another big partof why I decided to jump in this race.
'cause I think we're at a point inSeattle where we just cannot afford
(10:42):
another four years of failure onthe big issues facing our city.
Um, and, uh, yeah, so that,that's why I'm running.
Nora Kenworthy (10:50):
We're so excited that you are, um, you know, across the country
we're starting to see more candidates whoare openly running on platforms like this
one, like taxing the rich, making housingand transportation more affordable,
shifting public safety away from policing.
Um, I'm sure that a lot ofpeople are talking to you about
Zohran Mamdani's win in New YorkCity and sort of what it shows.
(11:12):
Uh, of what can happen when acandidate builds a campaign again
around, you know, tenants andimmigrants and working class voters.
So what sorts of lessons areyou taking away from that?
I, I mean, are we, canwe call it a wave yet?
Like, I don't know.
Katie Wilson (11:30):
I think, I think it's a
wave.
Nora Kenworthy (11:31):
Okay.
Yay.
Katie Wilson (11:34):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I think that what's happening
here is we are in a moment where.
Cities, blue cities.
I, I suppose I would say across thecountry there are some similar forces
at work and it's really national.
And, and, and part of this is themoment that we're in is obviously the
Trump Trump moment as well, right?
(11:55):
So last fall we had an election wherethe kind of stodgy establishment
Democratic party utterly failedto stop this train wreck.
And.
Is clearly out of touchwith, with the average voter.
And so I think there's justthis kind of disillusionment
with that style of politics.
(12:15):
And I think we're seeing incumbents, andI wouldn't include Harold in this, and
I, I, I'm not gonna say that Harrell's,the, the Andrew Cuomo of Seattle, other
people, other people have drawn thatcomparison, but I'm not gonna say that.
Um, but I do think that he doesnot break the mold of that,
that style of politics, right.
That he's been in office for.
18 years.
Uh, he is a very transactional politician.
(12:37):
Um, and so I think there's a, a reallydeep disillusionment with that and
a realization that that's not, um,a politics that meets the moment.
Um, and then the affordability crisis isanother big part of the moment we're in
right where coming out of the pandemic,um, we've just seen the cost of everything
skyrocket from housing to groceries, tochildcare, and, uh, people aren't feeling
(12:58):
that their elected leaders are are.
Leading on that, frankly.
Um, and so I think there's, we're in thismoment where the desire, I think there's
a perennial desire for government todeliver and get results that people have
been frustrated by for a very long time.
Right.
It's been very long since people hadfaith in, in government, and I think
that means that every election cycle.
(13:18):
There, there tends to be a, a kick thebastards out kind of mentality, right?
And it swings from, you know, endsup swinging from left to right.
So I think we're in a moment wherethat desire for results is coinciding
with this disillusionment, with thiscertain brand of, of establishment
democratic party politics.
And of course alsodisillusionment with Trump.
And you know, that's not as much ofa factor in Seattle where everyone
(13:39):
was already disillusioned to Trump.
But, um, anyway, so that's justkind of like the moment that
we're in and I think that's.
Playing out in, obviously in NewYork City, uh, playing out here,
playing out in Minneapolis and, andsome other cities around the country.
Marcus Harrison Green (13:52):
Yeah, and I mean, you've, I mean, you touched on it, right?
But I mean, there are so many, quoteunquote blue cities that continue to
have issues with I income inequality,continue to have issues with the
fa uh, with housing affordability.
You know, I'm thinking, you know, our,our coastal neighbors in Portland and
Seattle, our, or at least our, ourWest Coast neighbors, I should say.
And so I'm wondering, can you talk alittle bit more about your housing policy?
(14:15):
'cause I, I do think it's somethingthat could be instructive for,
for other cities potentially.
Katie Wilson (14:21):
Yeah, sure.
And I guess just, just to say one morething about kind of the moment we're in.
Um, I also think that it's importantfor those of us, you know, on the
left who look like we might besoon to win positions of power, not
to over interpret or misinterpretthe moment we're in, right?
Because we saw in Seattle the lasttwo elections were kind of backlashes
(14:41):
against progressive politics.
Um.
And now we're seeing kind of a backlashto a backlash where people kind
of had buyer's remorse and they'relooking at what the current mayor
and city council are trying to do,and they're like, oh, wait, wait.
This isn't, this isn't what we wanted.
Um, so I, but I think it's important to,to, to realize that that part of what's
going on here is that, um, people justwant government that works and that
(15:05):
delivers for people, and that's notreally a left right coded thing per se.
Um, and so I think it'sreally important for.
People like me who might be steppinginto office to also realize that
like, that is what people want.
And part of our challenge is, you know,not just to get up there and be a, um,
someone who's shout shouting about taxingthe rich and, um, giving away free stuff.
(15:28):
But, but to actually makesure that our government is
functioning, um, well day to day.
And, you know, we.
There's no excuse in Seattle fornot having like the best functioning
municipal government in America.
Right.
So I think, um, I think that that'sjust a really important point is
that we shouldn't over interpret thisbecause four years from now, if we
aren't actually doing a good job, um,and delivering things, then things
(15:52):
could easily swing back the other way.
Right.
Um, so anyway, now to yourquestion, Marcus, about housing.
So.
Yeah, I mean the housing crisishas been, has been the kind of
underlying factor in so many of the.
Problems that we face inSeattle for so long, right?
And including the homelessness crisis.
Um, it, it's a huge driver and right.
(16:15):
I mean, I think we all rememberlike 10 years ago when Seattle and
King County first declared a civilstate of emergency on homelessness.
And like we have justseen things get worse.
And that is, um, you know, homelessnessis complex, but it's also simple.
And the simple part is thatit's about housing costs.
And, uh, so.
In order to tackle our housing crisis,which affects people all across
(16:35):
the income scale, um, we have todo a whole range of things, right?
There's not one solution and partof it is about housing supply.
You know, part of it is thefact that our region has been
growing and growing and growing.
Uh, people have beencoming here for tech jobs.
People have been coming here for allkinds of reasons, and our housing supply
simply has not grown to match and that.
Partly because of restrictive, uh,zoning laws that, you know, go back
(16:58):
to redlining, exclusionary zoning.
Um, and we really need to make itpossible to build more multifamily
housing and neighborhoods across the city,especially, um, you know, historically,
um, white, wealthy exclusionaryneighborhoods that have great amenities.
Um, and so that is.
That is one big part of the,the, the, um, the puzzle.
(17:20):
Um, and at the same time, we alsoknow that that's not enough, right?
And that sometimes the waydevelopment has been done has
also contributed to displacement.
Um, and so we need to be taking measuresto prevent displacement, and we need to
be doing a lot to affirmatively build andcreate affordable housing because it's not
gonna automatically trickle down to createaffordable housing, especially for the.
(17:45):
The poorest households.
Um, and so there's wheresocial housing comes in, right?
We need to go big on social housing,do everything we can to get that
social housing developer rolling.
Um.
And we also need to continue to supportour more traditional models of affordable
housing, you know, through low incomehousing tax, credit program, et cetera.
Um, also support affordablehome ownership programs.
(18:05):
And, you know, homestead Community LandTrusts is, you know, doing great work.
We have other, you know, Africa Town,other land trusts that, uh, you know,
sometimes it's a mix of kind of a, arenter model and an ownership model.
Um, but there's a lot of great creativework being done in Seattle that the
city should continue to support.
Um.
And, uh, yeah.
And then rent protections as well.
Right.
I think that there's ways that we canstrengthen protections for the majority
(18:28):
of Seattle households that rent that,um, growing majority that, uh, will.
Help to stabilize rents andincrease housing stability.
So it's kind of an all of theabove approach to the housing
crisis, and that is the only waythat we're gonna move the needle.
Nora Kenworthy (18:42):
Yeah.
I love what you're saying about reallyspeaking to the issues that are really
impacting the majority of Seattleites.
The thing about Seattle politics,which I know you know, is
that there are big, powerful.
Institutional actors in the room, uh,from corporations to police guilds
who can powerfully sort of stepon the levers to slow things down.
(19:06):
I mean, we've seen that withcorporations like Amazon in the past.
Um, so how are you thinking, um, shouldyou become mayor about how to actually
shift some of those power imbalances?
Um, and.
Um, you know, kind of move thepolicymaking towards, um, something
that really serves people ofSeattle rather than the sort of
(19:28):
business influence the bureaucracyand the, the corporate interests.
Katie Wilson (19:32):
Yeah, that, that is a great question and.
I think there's a few parts to the answer.
So one is, you know, my work overthe years I've been, um, community
organizer, I'm a coalition builder, right?
So all of the, the big victories that,um, I've been a part of over the years
have been about coalition building,bringing together many organizations,
individuals, keeping everyone movingtoward a common vision, um, and.
(19:55):
All of the relationships that I'vebuilt up over the years doing that.
Like I know so many like amazingpassionate people in Seattle who are, um,
just incredibly skilled and, and competentand, um, experts in their fields.
And so it's really about kind ofassembling that team that can push
forward a vision and not being afraidto, to ruffle some feathers, frankly.
I mean, I think, um, yeah, I meanit's kind of this balance between.
(20:19):
It's like building the rightcoalition that's gonna just
get, get those things done.
And I guess one way that I've beenthinking about this is that, um, not to,
not to, not to pretend that I understandall the motivations of the current
mayor, but I do think that, at leastfrom what I've heard, there's a sense in
which like, he's been very focused on.
Keeping together the coalitionthat will get him reelected.
(20:43):
Um, and that means really not angeringany of the power players, right?
Um, it means kind of giving thisperson a little bit here and this, you
know, these guys a little bit here.
Um, and what that means is thatyou end up kind of paralyzed.
Um, and I really think that's justthe wrong way to govern, right?
I think that 'cause it's not,that's not a vision, right?
(21:03):
That's not a vision for the city.
That's a vision of like.
I wanna get reelected, and so thereforeI have to placate all these interests
and balance all these interests.
Mm-hmm.
And so I think what we really need isthat affirmative vision for the city
that we want all want to live in, right?
One that is affordable, onethat's walkable, one that's, you
know, a place where a. I mean,speaking as a renter, right?
(21:24):
Like you could raise a familyin an apartment building.
And, um, there we've got great parksand we have great amenities and um,
and so we need to rally people aroundthat vision and then not be afraid
to ruffle feathers and go againstpowerful interests in getting there.
And you can't do that without,uh, shaking things up and you
(21:47):
can't, it's kind of okay, like.
I'm not gonna step in thereand be thinking about what I
need to do to get reelected.
I'm gonna step in there and thinkabout what do we need to do to realize
this vision that a, a large majorityof Seattle residents believe in.
It's like happiness, right?
It's like if you spend yourlife trying to be happy, you're
gonna be miserable, right?
(22:07):
Like you need to.
You need to like be pushing for me forlike having a meaningful life, right?
You need to do things that aremeaningful and then maybe if
you're lucky, you're happy, right?
This is like you need to have a visionand go for that vision and then like.
Maybe if you're lucky, you get reelected.
Right?
So this is not the way politicsnormally works, but I think it's
the way politics should work, right?
Because it's not, ultimately,it's not about you.
(22:28):
It's not about the politician, it'sabout, um, it's about the vision.
It's about, you know, what you'reactually trying to achieve for the city.
Marcus Harrison Green (22:35):
Yeah.
Katie Wilson, come for the politicsand stay for the Buddhist life wisdom.
I love it.
I love it.
Um, no, I, I, I do wanna ask you,because something I've noticed,
and this was similar to when, um.
Momani won the primary in New York.
You had a lot of sort of establishment.
Uh, Democrats, if you will, who cayou know, even some people who, you
(22:57):
know, bill themselves as progressive,who came out, you know, for, uh,
his opponent, Cuomo and so forth.
It, that was something, you know, similarthat honestly happened here, um, in
Seattle where you had a lot of this.
Uh, prominent Democrats come outfor your opponent, Bruce Harrell.
And, and so I'm wondering, you, youkind of, you mentioned them a little
(23:17):
bit in your, uh, primary Knight speech.
I
Katie Wilson (23:21):
didn't name any names, Marcus.
I I didn't say I I didn't say
Marcus Harrison Green (23:24):
you named any, but you had alluded, okay.
Is that, is that an accurate, is thata, is that an accurate assessment?
You alluded to folks.
Yeah, I did.
I did.
And so, but this is what I wanna ask you.
I mean.
Do you, well, one, have, have any ofthose people reached spec out to you?
And then two, how can we, particularlywhat I've continued to see in the
Democratic party is like folks just seemto, to back the same old horses where when
(23:49):
we do really need change and, you know,and that continues to, to play out, you
know, throughout, you know, this country.
And so how do we.
How can we get some of the old guard,if you will, to open up their eyes to be
like, Hey, what, what has been working,what has happened in the past is not
working, so we need to do something else.
And a and a part of doing somethingelse, something else new is to have
(24:11):
new, new people doing it, if you will.
Katie Wilson (24:14):
Yeah.
I mean, I think, good question.
And I think that.
I mean, just thinking about my racebeing in first place on primary
night and potentially cracking 50% ineight way primary will probably help
some of those people come on board.
So, um, you know, uh,it's, it's early, right?
This is, we're just, you're not
Marcus Harrison Green (24:34):
calling anybody an opportunist or anything.
Katie Wilson (24:37):
We're just two days after the primary.
Um, so give them some time.
Um, and I'll also just say, I mean, look,I. I try not to be a petty person, so
like I understand the position that that.
Individuals, politicians are in,that, many organizations are in,
where they have a working relationshipwith the mayor's office, a working
relationship with the city.
(24:57):
And so especially when you havea, a mayor in there who is a
very transactional person, right?
Like that, it's a risk to, to jumpon board a challengers campaign,
like when it's not proven.
And so I'm not like nohard feelings, right?
Like I, I get the positionthat people are in, but at the
same time, that also makes me.
Um, extra value.
(25:17):
Those who, those who have the faithto, um, to, uh, to join our campaign.
And I, and just, just to give a shoutout there, I mean, ProTech 17, right?
The largest union of city workers thatendorsed our campaign a few weeks ago.
You know, pre-primary, um, I. Justastounded by, um, you know, the integrity
of, of their union leadership and process.
(25:39):
And, um, you know, theyare taking a huge risk.
We're taking a huge risk by, um,jumping on board with our campaign.
Um, so yeah, I mean, there's,there's a lot of, there's, there's
folks with courage out there too.
Marcus Harrison Green (25:50):
Yeah, I, I also just wanna say that my,
my mom, mama Green was down.
Day one, you know, if that means anything.
Anyhow,
Nora Kenworthy (25:58):
she was like in the campaign lit, right?
Marcus Harrison Green (26:01):
Yes, she was.
She was
Nora Kenworthy (26:03):
Marcus.
Katie Wilson (26:03):
That's, that's why we're winning.
We know that's why we're winning.
Marcus Harrison Green (26:07):
I didn't wanna say anything.
You know, she's a humble woman.
Mama Green
Nora Kenworthy (26:09):
is like her own political block.
We all know it.
Um, okay.
I don't mean to ask a painfulstress inducing question 'cause
you've already had quite a week.
Um, but you, you crushedit in this primary, um.
And we've seen this story before acrossthe country where a progressive wave
just like kind of crashes through aprimary and then runs into a ton of
(26:32):
corporate money and scare tactics andjust unsavory behavior during campaigns.
Um, we've already seen a bit of that.
Directed towards you, how are youthinking about the strategy ahead in
terms of, you know, continuing to runaccording to your values and to, um,
you know, finance, what is gonna be a,a very competitive race, um, with the
(26:56):
kinds of money that you're up against?
Katie Wilson (26:59):
Yeah.
I mean, I, I don't, and this is, thisis the, uh, maybe the downside of
having such a strong primary resultis, uh, you know, hopefully, hopefully
people aren't going away beinglike, oh, she's got it in the bag.
We don't need to fight'cause it's gonna be a fight.
Mm-hmm.
Believe me, it's gonna be a fight.
Right.
And so we already saw in the primary, youknow, there's a, a corporate funded pack
for Harold, which, um, you know, raisedseveral hundred thousand dollars and.
(27:23):
You have to believe that there is gonnabe a lot of money, um, piling up in that
pack, um, to, to defeat me in November.
Um, and so the, we've already seentheir lines of attacks, right?
They're trying to paint me as,uh, the, the second coming of.
And, uh, as, as a advocatefor defunding the police.
(27:44):
Um, and so you could expectthose attacks to really ramp up.
Um, and so yeah, we're, we'retrying to prepare for that.
Um, I mean, it, I, I feel like they'repretty weak lines of attack actually.
Honestly, it was like my publicsafety platforms on my website.
Um, and honestly like Harold's recordon public safety and his running
of the police department has been.
(28:06):
Pretty poor.
Um, and so I think a lot of thisis just gonna be, look, here's our
plan and here's what the currentmayor's failed to do, um, and.
You know, honestly, with results thisstrong, like I'm gonna be putting a
significant amount of time now movingforward, not just into campaigning, but
to, into actually making sure that I'mready to step into office on day one.
(28:27):
And so that means, you know, buildingout that transition team, um, and,
and making more, much more detailed,I guess I would say plans for, um, for
what I'm gonna do, um, in every realm.
And so.
I look forward to that conversationabout public safety this fall,
actually, because I think we coulddo a lot better on a lot of fronts.
Um, and, uh, but okay, to answeryour question, which is, uh,
(28:50):
how are we gonna win this fight?
Ultimately the answer is gonna be ourground game and our ability to reach the
people of Seattle with a message thatis positive and, um, that puts forward
that vision that we can all believe in.
You know, we've had, we have, uh,like 800 people in the primary who've
volunteered in one way or another,and we're gonna be growing that force.
(29:12):
And so we are gonna build the biggestranking game the city's ever seen.
We're gonna get out thereand knock those doors.
We're gonna talk to people, we're gonna,um, just reach voters in every way we can.
So, um, and that's gonna be thestrength of our campaign because we have
enthusiasm and momentum on our side.
Um, and I don't think that,uh, our opponent does.
Nora Kenworthy (29:31):
Yeah, I mean, and I just wanna, like, your
ground game has been amazing.
Um, I've been able to get out thevote for, for you in North Seattle.
I remember when you first announcedyour campaign, there was like
a Google form that you werecirculating that was like, Hey.
Can anyone help with my childcare?
Can anyone help?
Like drive me to events?
You know?
And it was like, it was areal like community effort.
(29:54):
And I think we've lost some of that withthese like huge big money campaigns.
And people forget that Seattle'sa pretty small city of connected
communities and I think you reallyhave been bringing them together.
Katie Wilson (30:07):
Thank you.
Well, I, I have to say that I amjust like so grateful for everyone
who has stepped up and volunteeredin so many different ways.
Right?
We just have like kick ass peoplehelping with our social media and
like yeah, as you say, like driving mearound when I need to a ride somewhere.
And, um, and yeah, I mean it's just, Ifeel like campaigning is stressful, but
I also just feel so supported, like somany people are, are really stepping
(30:30):
up and it just feels like a real Yeah.
Community team effort.
Marcus Harrison Green (30:34):
Yeah.
I got it.
I gotta ask you, 'cause I mean,you're, you know, uh, Nora and I,
we were joking, um, in the introto the show about, you know, um.
The fact that, you know, just, Idon't know, maybe three years ago
you and I are making five bucksstretch and sharing Americano,
uh, at an independent coffee shop.
Of course, we don't do Starbucks, but,uh, you're just, you know, I mean,
(30:58):
you're just a regular person, right?
I mean, you have a. In, in, in the, inthe, you know, most, and I mean that in
the most like honorific sense of that,of like, you're not, you know, some
billionaire, you're not, some lobbyist,you're not some, uh, democratic operative.
You're a normal person who wanted to just,quite frankly, just do the right thing
and is trying to make our city better.
(31:18):
And so I want to ask you, thereare so many people, you know,
listening, so many fuck people.
Who I've, you know, touched base with in,in my capacity as a reporter who are like,
does it actually make a difference to run?
And at one and then two, you know,they feel very intimidated, you know,
at the prospect of running because of.
(31:40):
Because of what, you know, we'veoutlined already in this conversation.
There's so much money, there'sso much, there's, there's
press sticking into your life.
There's, um, you know, bad actors who manytimes want to, want to see a progressive,
uh, you know, and their downfall.
And so what message would you have forthose people who are, I don't know.
They're in, I'm actually just in mymind, I'm thinking about somebody, uh.
(32:03):
A friend of mine in San Antonio,Texas with all the craziness
that's going on in Texas right now.
Thinking about running for the, thelegislature over there, you know, what,
what would you say to those people who arelike, you know, I don't, I don't feel like
I am either, uh, you know, I don't havethe quote unquote cache or the charisma
or the, or the money, you know, to run.
(32:25):
And yet they would probably bevery well equipped to do so.
Katie Wilson (32:30):
Yeah, I mean, I would say go for it.
I mean, that's the optimistic answer.
Like, we need people to, tostep out of their comfort zone.
And if, if, you know, if you're someonewho, um, kind of is in a position to be
able to, to do that and to give voiceto your neighbors and you know, the
people that you interact with every daywho maybe don't, you know, aren't in
a position to do that, like go for it.
(32:50):
But I think the bigger answer is thatI also feel like collectively on kind
of the left, broadly speaking, um.
We need to build more of theinfrastructure to support candidates
and to, uh, you know, run candidatesfor office and also support and organize
behind them in office to actually getthe things done that we wanna get done.
Because I think we live in a worldwhere that kind of universe of
(33:14):
like campaign consultants and partypeople and just all the kind of like
political class, it's kind of a vortexthat like, even if you're kind of.
Uh, a, a, a good, legitimate,normal person candidate, right?
Like you can get sucked intoand turned into something else.
And I think we need a much more likecommunity based, um, independent kind
(33:36):
of infrastructure for supporting,uh, supporting, I mean, I'm just
thinking locally right now, but likesupporting local candidates and making
sure that they're able to actuallydeliver on, on big things in office.
Nora Kenworthy (33:48):
Yeah, for sure.
And I wanna follow up and aska little bit more about that
sort of like infrastructure.
Um, because Seattle also has ademocracy vouchers program, which
yay just got renewed by voters.
Um, and this program enables voters tosupport candidates without large donors
or independent money to run for office.
Um, in New York, mom Donny's campaignseems to have benefited from the
(34:12):
city's ranked choice voting system.
Do you think that these types of changesto electoral systems are helping shift
politics back towards the people and.
As mayor, what other changeswould you like to see introduced
in cities like Seattle?
Katie Wilson (34:25):
Yeah, I mean, I think the democracy about voucher
program is am amazing, and I donot know that we would've been able
to run this campaign without it.
So I'm really thrilled that, uh,voters really strongly also passed
that at the ballot this August.
Um, and I'll say like before,before I was a candidate.
I thought the democracy voucherprogram was cool, but it's
(34:46):
just like, yeah, it's cool.
But now as a candidate, it's reallytransformative, both in the sense
that it allows someone who's notcoming from a, a wealthy kind
of, uh, mil like me to, to run.
Um, but also it really changesthe incentives for candidates
in such a good way, right?
Because like if, if I was trying torun this game or this campaign without
(35:07):
democracy vouchers, like me and myteam would just be like in a room.
Calling like wealthy Democratic partydonors trying to get money out of them.
And then those would be the people thatwe were kind of accountable to, right?
'cause they like funded our campaign.
But with democracy vouchers, like everysingle person in the city has something
that is potentially of value to you.
And so you as a candidate.
(35:27):
As a campaign, have the incentiveto be out there talking to
normal people every single day.
And that's what we've been doing.
I have spent zero minutes on the phoneasking for money, um, and instead I'm out
there talking to people on the streets,at the farmer's market, at the doors,
and that's what all of our, uh, you know,campaign folks and volunteers are doing.
Um, so I just think it's reallyfantastic and it really does.
(35:48):
Provide that ability fornon-traditional candidates to run.
Um, and yeah, I, I would loveto see more cities around the
country copy that as, as well.
Um, for sure.
It,
Nora Kenworthy (35:59):
it's like such a magical program.
It's a magical thing thatlike all the local candidates.
Are walking through neighborhoods,talking to people and asking them
for their support, and peoplehave a way to support them.
Yep.
Financially for free.
It's just an extraordinary thing.
Katie Wilson (36:14):
It really is.
And, and I guess in terms of sayinglike, what else do we need to do?
So, um, since we're here with Marcus,um, I'm gonna just give a plug for, uh.
A wild idea that Marcus and I andothers in the journalism space have
been talking about for a few yearsnow, which is basically a program
kind of like democracy vouchers, butfor supporting local news outlets.
(36:37):
Um, and you know, we're in a, a timewhen there's just not a viable funding
model for independent journalism.
Um, and so we've seen newsrooms aroundthe country like downsizing or closing,
and we've seen, um, you know, somany news deserts around the country.
Seattle's in like a. Somewhat betterposition than a lot of places, but like
we used to have two daily newspapers.
We used to have two alternative weeklies.
(36:57):
And, um, and it really having that kind ofpaucity of, um, of news outlets and, uh,
and, and so many of the ones that existright, are just like struggling and they
don't have as many reporters as they want.
Right.
And.
That really just creates a kind ofimpoverished information environment
that allows extremism to flourish andjust means that people don't, um, like
(37:20):
we're just not able to keep powerfulinstitutions in governments respon,
uh, uh, accountable in the same way.
Um, and so a program like democracyvouchers, but for funding local
news outlets would basicallyenable there to be this kind of.
Uh, citizen driven public fundingwithout the government actually
deciding like where that money goes.
Um, and I think thatcould just be amazing.
(37:40):
It could just give a real boost toa lot of the, the small neighborhood
based news outlets that we already have.
It could inspire more to startand it could just result in, um,
just like a much, I mean, 'causedemocracy's not just when we elect
people every four years, right?
It's about the information that we get.
Every day, um, of, of everyone of those four years.
And so I think that would be a reallycool thing to pioneer here in Seattle.
Marcus Harrison Green (38:03):
Yeah.
Here, here.
I roundly agree.
I, um,
Nora Kenworthy (38:08):
it's such a cool idea.
Marcus Harrison Green (38:10):
Yeah.
We will, there'll be afuture episode on that.
I'm sure.
Uh, that, that being said, and I knowwe're, we're, we're 30 minutes in and
we, we almost got through the entireepisode of talking about Terra 47.
But alas, he corrodes all ofour lives here, so I want to.
I wanna ask you, Katie, um, you know,all of us in this interview have the
(38:31):
distinction of belonging to demographicsthat our current orange overlord would
happily deport, gag or strip of basicbodily autonomy before breakfast.
Um, and so I I want to ask you if, if youwere elected, you know, you'd be serving
as progressive mayor in a blue city.
And that's the tall, tall, tall order.
(38:53):
So in what areas do you think there'ssome meaningful local policy that could
help actually, you know, protect ourmarginalized communities here under what
is, quite frankly just growing fascism?
Katie Wilson (39:08):
Yeah.
Um, very good question.
So there's a number of pieces to this.
So one that I often start with is.
Revenue.
A lot of things come down to moneywhen you're talking about the city.
Um, and so when we're seeing.
Potential cuts to federal grant programsthat are gonna impact the city budget when
(39:28):
we're seeing potential cuts to, uh, ornot potential at this point, but actually
coming cuts to Medicaid to snap benefitsthat are gonna impact Seattle residents.
Right?
The city is gonna need to really step upand, you know, working with the county,
working with the state, um, we are goingto need to come up with new progressive
revenue to make sure that we're able to.
Um, protect people and, and that people,uh, are not left without healthcare
(39:51):
access, that are not left without foodaccess, um, not left without housing.
Um, and, you know, all, all the, allthe pieces of the budget that are
endangered by, um, the, the federalgovernment cutting or withholding funds.
So, um, that is one big area thatthe city's gonna really need to
lead on in in the coming years.
Um, of course.
With ice and the kind of superchargingof, uh, funding for ice that's, uh, coming
(40:16):
through in the, the bill that just passed.
Um, that's another whole area wherethe city's gonna need to step up and.
You know, looking at some of thethings that other cities around
the country are doing, there's,there's some cities who are actually
directing their law enforcement tointervene in unlawful ice operations.
I think that's something weshould look in here, right?
We, we can't have masked un badgedpeople walking around our city or, you
(40:39):
know, yanking people into vans, right?
Um, that could be anyone.
Um, and, uh, so I, I think wereally need to, uh, to look at that.
And I know, you know,the mayor of Boston has.
Then like filing foia, freedomof Information Act request to get
additional transparency aroundwho ICE is detaining and why.
Just like everything that we cando to, um, kind of interfere with,
(41:01):
with their operations the better.
Um, I also think we need.
Uh, some clarity around what, um, ourlaw enforcement should be doing when
there are protests around ICE operations.
'cause there's certainly been caseswhere it looks like, um, SPD or this
has happened in other cities too.
Law enforcement is collaboratingwhereas they're not supposed to.
Right.
(41:21):
We have our Keep Washington WorkingAct, which prohibits local law
enforcement from collaborating with ice.
So we need to.
Have some more clarity around kindof what that, what that line is.
Um, and in general, the cityjust needs to work very closely.
We have an amazing, um, you know,advocates, uh, you know, immigrant
community organizations in Seattle thatare doing the hard work of, uh, you know,
(41:42):
building out rapid response networksand, um, you know, supporting immigrant
communities, making sure people don't haveto go to immigration hearings alone, um,
supporting people who've been detained.
And so the city should be workingvery, very closely with all of those
folks and making sure that they havethe, the support that they need.
Nora Kenworthy (41:58):
I think we wanted to also ask you just a broader question
about what your campaign teachesprogressives across the country.
Um, you know, you're really comingto this work as an organizer, as an
advocate, now as a candidate, um,in this moment in time, which feels
like just such an incredible uphill.
(42:19):
Struggle.
Um, what do you think are the waysthat progressives can claim and hold
onto power, um, either inside thesystem or outside of it, or both?
Um, what sorts of actions do you hopepeople take away from your campaign
and begin to carry into other placesand communities around the us?
(42:40):
Hmm.
Katie Wilson (42:43):
Yeah, good question.
I mean, I would say that I think the.
The strength of my campaign, or maybeme as a candidate is largely the
work that I've done, you know, as acommunity organizer with the Transit
Writers Union, as a coalition builder,with all of the coalitions that I've,
um, you know, built over the years.
(43:05):
It's the fact that all of that workresulted in real tangible benefits for.
Thousands of people in theirdaily lives every day, right?
I think that is what peopleare looking for right now.
So you know when I'm able togo out and say like, look, we.
Raise the minimum wage tothe highest in the country in
several cities around the county.
(43:26):
We won stronger runnerprotections in eight cities.
We, um, you know, we improved thepublic transit system and won free
and reduced fair programs that, youknow, tens of thousands of riders use.
We've, uh, you know, won thejumpstart tax, right, which
saved the city budget, right?
Those are such concrete things thatpeople can really understand, um,
how people are benefiting from that.
And it, and it addresses those, um.
(43:49):
Affordability, quality of life, um,issues that people are facing every day.
And so I think that really is what thosebread and butter issues are, really what
people wanna see action on right now.
And so I think that is what'sresonating with people above all.
And so what I would say to, you know,progressives around the country is, um.
Let's fight for those things.
(44:10):
Right.
Fight for those things and,and show people that we can
really move the, the needle.
We're not just all talk.
Marcus Harrison Green (44:15):
Yeah.
Their, their side has Elon and, andJeff Bezos and our side has you.
So I, uh, I, I like our odds, Katie.
I like our odds a lot.
Anyhow.
Oh boy.
Thank you so, so much formaking time, uh, for us today.
Katie Wilson (44:30):
Thank you both.
Yeah.
Wonderful to, to chat with you.
Nora Kenworthy (44:33):
Yeah.
And congrats.
Hope you get some sleepat some point soon.
In the next few months.
Yeah, yeah,
Marcus Harrison Green (44:40):
yeah, yeah.
Very much.
Looking forward to those returns.
Uh, ex widening, uh, today at four 30, so.
Katie Wilson (44:49):
Yes.
Yes.
We'll see what happens.
Feeling, feeling positive about it all
Marcus Harrison Green (44:53):
as you should.
Yeah.
Well I will.
We'll let you go and, and seriously, myfriend, thank you so much just for this.
Thank you for everythingand for everything else.
Katie Wilson (45:02):
Yeah, of course.
Thank you both.
Talk to you later.
Nora Kenworthy (45:12):
Well, I gotta say, Marcus, you officially have.
The greatest friend network ofanyone I know, and thank you
for sharing Katie with us today.
Marcus Harrison Green (45:24):
I'm not going to be humble about having a
great friend network, so I wouldjust say yes, Nora, thank you.
You, uh, you are, I mean, honestly,you are one of 'em as well.
So, um, you know, just to affirm all ofthat, I, and I gotta say, um, again, just
to reiterate what we talked about earlier.
Katie is just a regular, normalperson who literally was like,
(45:49):
there's something that needs to bedone in our city and so let me do it.
And I know how corny andcliche that possibly sounds.
I get it.
But also, you know, sometimes cornyand cliche is, is is just fine.
I think ultimately, you know, I hope moreand more people start to ask themselves
this question of like, why not me?
(46:10):
Why, why shouldn't I run for somethingand why can't I impact change?
And you know what the, the answermany people will get is you can.
So yeah, I, I, I look at Katie asa. Regardless of what happens in
November, I mean, of course I, I knowwhat I hope happens, but regardless
of what happens in November, I thinkshe is very much a, a wonderful
(46:32):
example and demonstration of whatmore people should be doing right now.
Nora Kenworthy (46:37):
Yeah.
Well, I think that's a greatsegue to our eight ounces of joy.
Do you wanna go first?
Marcus Harrison Green (46:43):
Yeah.
Um, so.
I, I've alluded to it several times inthis show today, but over in Texas there
are 50 Democratic lawmakers who bouncedout of the state, uh, due to the fact
that they wanted to block this horrid,uh, redistricting effort that would jury
(47:05):
man, essentially the state of Texas andgive, uh, Republicans five more additional
seats right before the midterm elections.
Um, and this is basically.
President Trump saying that, you know,I want to make sure, even though I have
extremely unpopular policies, like theone big ugly fucking bill, um, to, uh,
(47:28):
as one of our previous guests refer to itas like, I want to ensure that there is
no such thing as democracy essentially,and I just want to make sure that I,
that we can go on with our policiesno matter how unpopular they might be.
So you had 50 Democraticstate lawmakers who were like,
(47:49):
uh, you know, uh, fuck that.
That kind of sounds a lot like fascism.
And so we're bouncing to Illinoisand, and elsewhere around the country.
Uh, long story short, uh, that has notset well with Texas Governor Greg Abbott,
who is asked their Supreme Court to removethe Democratic caucus chair Gene Wu and.
(48:11):
As well as, uh, the FBI has gotteninvolved under FBI, director K Patel, who,
uh, if you're keeping SCORE at home, usedto be a conspiracy theorist, podcaster,
and now somehow runs the FBI agency.
And so anyhow, I saidall that to say maybe
Nora Kenworthy (48:29):
at least he'll be really bad at directing
the FBI to find these guys.
Marcus Harrison Green: You know, that is true. (48:34):
undefined
Incompetence could actually comeinto play in a good way here.
Which, which is why I have to say, I,I have to give a shout out to, uh, Jean
Wu, the Democratic Caucus chair overin Texas, because he said, and I quote.
This isn't my seat.
The seat belongs to thepeople of the state of Texas.
(48:56):
Until the people of the stateof Texas tell me to go away.
I will stay here and fightwith everything that I have.
This is not about me.
This is not about Democrats.
This is not about political power.
This is about protecting what webelieve and love about America and.
So I gotta say like, gene Vu is actuallydemonstrating some level of courage.
(49:18):
Mm-hmm.
Uh, in the fact that he's, you know,he and the other democratic legislators
are out of the, the state of Texas.
And trying not to comeback to make sure this.
Just quite frankly, blatantpower grab does not happen.
And I will say, as with, uh, somany of our American institutions,
whether it is the news media, whetherit is academia, quite frankly, just
(49:42):
being profiles and cowardice mm-hmm.
It is good to, again, see more and moredemonstrations like this where people
are actually demonstrating courage anddemonstrating courage in a way that
they know that there could be blow back.
They know that there could beconsequences and they're like, fuck
it, I'm willing to deal with those.
Like, we need more Yeah.
Of these things happening and we needto, quite frankly, just spotlight
(50:04):
more of this happening so that,uh, this becomes more commonplace.
Nora Kenworthy (50:09):
Yes.
Well, mine is also about bravery thisweek, but in a totally different vein.
Um.
I had this one like on tap for this week.
It was happening for mebefore the election results.
And then the election results inSeattle were also such a source of joy.
And this conversation, honestly, withKatie Wilson was such a source of
joy and inspiration about the braveryto just stand up and do something.
(50:32):
Um, but um, so that's kindof the theme of my week.
I think.
Um, my, my week was full of.
A lot of announcements of commitmentsof love and new babies and
engagements from friends and family.
And I know it can seem like reallysmall and just like, sort of personal,
(50:55):
but many people that I, these, theseannouncements were coming from people
that I know have thought long andhard about how terrible the world is.
How hard it is to choose relationshipsand investing each in each other in times
when it feels like, what is tomorrow?
(51:16):
Like, what does next year look like?
Um, and I increasingly think that's areally radical and beautiful act, um, to
choose to deepen our relationships witheach other, with places that we love to
choose to bring other humans into thisworld, as bad as it seems, um, in whatever
form those commitments and relationships.
(51:37):
Look like for people.
Um, I think they're brave choices,um, and maybe even necessary
choices, and it feels joyful to beable to celebrate them right now.
So here's to people making braver choices.
Marcus Harrison Green (51:50):
Absolutely.
What a, a friend of mine said oncethat, um, yeah, or you reiterated
that quote that, uh, having aa child is a bet on the future.
R just means you'rejust fucking delusional.
So I wanna go with That's so true.
It's a bet on the future.
It's a, well, as someone who I gave
Nora Kenworthy (52:08):
birth the week before Trump was first elected, and I. Had
never really wanted to be a parent.
I thought the world was a prettyterrible place to bring children into.
Somehow became delusional enoughto like reverse that position.
And then Trump was elected, likeliterally the week that I gave birth.
Um, but I, I have to say, I think it isone of the most transformative things to
(52:33):
choose love, even in chimes of darknessand to choose to support each other.
Um.
And I think it's the only way weactually get through, actually.
Marcus Harrison Green (52:44):
Yeah.
I think that's the one of the easiest,best ways of rebellion right now.
So that's certainly one of themost accessible at this moment.
Nora Kenworthy (52:51):
I mean, if you can't flee Texas for Illinois
and piss off Greg Abbott.
You can also make a reallyconsequential life choice that
you might regret later on.
So true.
Kidding.
So true.
Well,
Marcus Harrison Green (53:08):
well on that note, can you start
the readouts, my good friend?
Nora Kenworthy (53:14):
Yes, I am.
Happy to.
Um, so congratulations to ourlisteners because you have made
it through another week in this.
Really awful group project we call theUnited States of America where no one
read the syllabus, and half the teamis live streaming their loyalty to
billionaires for clout, and the restof us are being barely held together
(53:36):
by caffeine and gallows humor and aslow burning fury that's too exhausted
to riot, but two bitters to log off.
I will stop talking now.
Marcus, please sign us off.
Marcus Harrison Green (53:49):
I just gotta underscore all that is truth.
I'll just say that.
Um,
well, as always, massive thank yous toour fearless producer, Jessica part now
who somehow keeps this ship afloat and toa Al Luo for blessing us with music that
makes our existential dread somehow justa little less dreadful you can follow.
In the meanwhile, wherever you get yourpodcasts are on YouTube, Instagram,
(54:12):
and yes, even Blue Sky for the fiveof you who actively post there daily.
Thank you.
We love you, Anthony, and ifyou wanna support the show.
We do, we do.
If you do want to support the show orjust pretend you're doing something
productive with your rage, head to inthe-meanwhile.com to subscribe or donate,
(54:32):
and if you get anything valuable fromthis episode or any of our episode.
Please share this show with yourfriends or with your enemies.
We don't really care.
We just want somebody to listen to us.
We're not picky.
Not at all, not at all.
A reminder that new episodes dropevery Friday, and until then,
we'll see you in the meanwhile.
I have spent zero minutes on the phone asking for money.
(00:03):
And instead I'm out there talkingto people on the streets, at the
farmer's market, at the doors, andthat's what all of our campaign
folks and volunteers are doing.
Marcus Harrison Green (00:18):
Welcome back to in the Meanwhile, I'm Marcus Harrison Green,
long suffering journalist, recoveringoptimist, and reluctant political doula
to every friend who's ever texted me.
"Hey, I think I'm gonna run for office,"which is basically the elder millennial
version of "I'm gonna start a band."
Nora Kenworthy (00:35):
And I'm Nora Kenworthy.
Currently serving as a memberof the Underground Railway for
Runaway Texas legislators, um.
And after another spin around thenational news roundup this week,
someone who is about two rage textsaway from turning my group chat into a
super PAC with a new mission statementthat says Absolutely the fuck not.
(00:58):
Um, but Marcus, you forgot to mentionthat you're also the guy who last
year was splitting a single Americano.
Yes, that's right, becausemutual aid and inflation.
Um, but splitting acoffee with today's guest.
And now she may actually be on herway to becoming the mayor of Seattle.
Marcus Harrison Green (01:18):
That is right.
You know, I, I call this the, thebest of the American dream here.
Like one day you're with yourfriend, figure out whether
it's cheaper to get a 16 ounceAmericano and ask for a second cup.
And the next, you're watchingthe same friend crush, the mayor
old primary in Seattle and getcompared to Zohran Mamdani.
Nora Kenworthy (01:38):
For those playing catch up Zohran Mamdani is the New
York assembly member who ran on taxingthe rich housing, the poor, and just
not being so boring, um, and actuallywon a New York City's mayoral race.
So just like today's guest, um,but minus the borough accent.
Marcus Harrison Green: Yeah, I, I gotta say no. (01:56):
undefined
Like I love Katie Wilson,who we're having on today.
But when she first texted me aboutrunning, I assumed it was like a
COVID fever dream or something like,who hasn't fantasized about running
for office while spiraling on X invitamin D deficiency, particularly in
Seattle and then wisely, they're justlike, no, I'm not going to do that.
Nora Kenworthy (02:18):
Right.
I mean, as the saying goes, anyone'ssmart enough to run for offices, is
smart enough to not want the job.
Um.
But as our current government continuesto remind us by the minute we, well man,
we desperately need smart people likeKatie to actually step up and do the job.
Marcus Harrison Green (02:36):
Ranking competence just isn't doing it for you, huh?
No, not so much.
Yeah.
Anyway, the diversityinitiatives are not working right
Nora Kenworthy (02:43):
now.
Marcus Harrison Green (02:43):
I'm telling what do, what do they call 'em?
The, the DUI initiatives thatare, that are going on in the, in
the federal government right now.
Anyhow.
Um, anyway, when she hit me with,Hey, I'm announcing my run next week.
I thought she meant like.
A run run like a 5K, which are verypopular in the city of Seattle.
Even though it rains a ton, likeeverybody is doing a 5K for something,
(03:06):
whether it's mutual aid every weekend.
Yeah.
Or like, you know, dragqueen, you know, bingo hour.
We're trying to fundraisefor that, whatever.
So I'm like, oh, okay.
But no, she was like,mayor of Seattle run.
I was like, oh shit.
Uh, okay, I'm gonna go backthrough all of our text threads and
retroactively label them off the record.
Nora Kenworthy (03:28):
And now Katie Wilson is the progressive front runner
in a city like many blue coastalcities that saw a huge retrenchment
in our progressive politics.
After 2020.
Democrat came to mean somethinglike loves some bike lanes through.
Rich parts of the city and alsoloves militarized homeless sweeps.
(03:50):
Um, so yeah, it's a really big dealthat she, uh, came out so far ahead
in our primary election this week.
Marcus Harrison Green (03:58):
Yeah, I can't tell you there, I don't think that there was
anybody of, at least, there's certainlyno major news outlets here who had her.
You know, finishing the top of theprimary, like, I think everybody, for
the most part thought that she would, youknow, come out as a, a distant second.
But the, the level of surprise and,and slack jaw shock on, you know, the
(04:22):
punditry up in, in Seattle was, it wassomething to behold, uh, that being said.
All jokes aside, Katie just didn'tappear out of nowhere like some brunch
liberals, folklore or something.
She's been doing the damn work for years.
She's been organizing, writing,testifying, dragging policymakers
through the public comment processlike it's her daily cardio session.
(04:44):
She's been on it
Nora Kenworthy (04:46):
and now she's doing what most of us are.
Way too afraid to do, even in theprivacy of our most feral group chats,
she's actually running to fix themess herself without billionaires,
without hedge fund sugar daddies, justunapologetically getting out there to
do the work, um, as a progressive policymaker and serve a lot of tired ass
(05:12):
seattleites who want better for our city.
Marcus Harrison Green (05:15):
Yeah.
Well, I, I certainly knowtoo, right here, uh, I. God.
Yes.
Um, she is very mucha breath of fresh air.
And so today we are talkingto a person who took me from,
this is a fever dream to wait.
This could actually fucking happen.
Seattle mayoral candidate, Katie Wilson.
(05:36):
Yes, she is my friend.
No, I do not cover her as ajournalist, but yes, I can ethically
interview her on this little show.
I co-host with this brillianthuman being to my left.
Nora Kenworthy (05:50):
And so today we're gonna get into what finally made Katie Wilson
say, screw it, I'm running how sheplans to hold power without selling out.
Um, and what the path still isforward for cities like Seattle under.
The crushing weight of the horrors.
(06:10):
Um, yes.
And, and, and without getting likeoverly hyped and hopeful, I do
feel like this episode has a lotof treasures in store for folks in
other places as well as Seattle whohave been waiting for a glimmer of
hope like this for a very long time.
Marcus Harrison Green (06:31):
Absolutely what, what is happening in Seattle
certainly shouldn't stay here.
And without further ado, ifyou are somebody who is asking
yourself, why doesn't someonedo something about all this?
Well, Katie Wilson did.
So let's get into it.
(06:56):
So Katie, there is so many peoplewho I've talked to recently.
Who have considered, you know, runningfor office and, you know, they're not
sure if it's the right time or not.
And, and so I wanna ask you,you know, you've spent years
organizing on the outside writing,agitating, demanding better policy.
What convinced you that this was theright time to step into the system
(07:20):
and run for the city's top job?
Katie Wilson (07:24):
That's a great question, Marcus.
And you know, I've been a communityorganizer now for, you know, 14, 15 years.
And honestly, running for officehas never been an ambition of mine.
Um, and you know, when you do this kindof work over the years, people will
ask you, are you gonna run for office?
And my answer to that has always justbeen like, hell no, that's not my role.
(07:45):
Um.
And yeah, I mean, I've alwaysin the past seen my role as
being on the outside, right?
Building up the power that, um,the power that we need to get
good people elected, hold themaccountable, get good policies passed.
And, um, and I think that, Imean, that's where my heart is in
community organizing always, right?
I, I think that that is how we getgood things done is by, um, you know,
(08:05):
ordinary people coming together and,uh, and, and building that power.
Um.
So things for me shifted prettyquickly, um, early this year, and
I, I've told this story many times,but I'll, I'll tell it again.
So in February we had a, a specialelection on funding Seattle's
new social housing developer.
Right.
And, um, you know, this is a, um, uh, aneffort that started the previous year,
(08:29):
right when Seattle Voters, uh, supportedthe creation of a new social housing
developer to basically pioneer what's.
A little bit of a different model ofaffordable housing that we don't often do
in the us but that's more similar to whatEuropean cities like Paris and Vienna have
done for a long time, where you're tryingto basically build a non-market, um,
housing sector that's a mixed income andpermanently affordable, publicly owned.
(08:54):
So it's this really exciting project.
And so we had a measure on the ballotin February to, uh, fund the new
social housing developer throughattacks on wealthy corporations and.
Our current mayor, Bruce Harrell,um, kind of teamed up with Amazon and
Microsoft and the Chamber of Commerceto support a alternative measure, which
kind of pretended to still supportsocial housing, but really undermined it.
(09:17):
And, uh, you know, his face was plasteredall over mailers that everyone got and.
Honestly, I thought that effortwas gonna succeed, right?
I thought that that people would,uh, be fooled, but they weren't.
And so the, the tax on wealthycorporations passed in a landslide, right?
Seattle voters said very strongly, wewant, um, social housing in Seattle.
(09:38):
And to me that was really exciting.
Um, and it really showed how out ofstep our current mayor is with the
people of Seattle, with the voters.
And it really showed.
I think, you know, people's support forthat measures in part a reflection of the
affordability crisis and the fact thatpeople are really feeling how expensive
it is to live in this city, right?
(09:59):
Rents keep going up.
Housing costs are so high, right?
If you wanna buy a home,it just feels out of reach.
And so I think that.
Um, you know, that really just tippedme over into thinking about running also
because the mayor has a lot of power to,um, make that project succeed or fail.
Right.
Um, I think, uh, the, the city isgonna need to be a really strong
(10:20):
partner with a new social housingdeveloper and identifying land.
Um, you know, to createa land bank in financing.
And so if we have a mayor who's tryingto undermine that project, it could
easily fail in the next four years.
And, you know, when, when governmentdoesn't deliver, people lose faith in it.
And so we really needthat project to succeed.
And so that is, that is another big partof why I decided to jump in this race.
'cause I think we're at a point inSeattle where we just cannot afford
(10:42):
another four years of failure onthe big issues facing our city.
Um, and, uh, yeah, so that,that's why I'm running.
Nora Kenworthy (10:50):
We're so excited that you are, um, you know, across the country
we're starting to see more candidates whoare openly running on platforms like this
one, like taxing the rich, making housingand transportation more affordable,
shifting public safety away from policing.
Um, I'm sure that a lot ofpeople are talking to you about
Zohran Mamdani's win in New YorkCity and sort of what it shows.
(11:12):
Uh, of what can happen when acandidate builds a campaign again
around, you know, tenants andimmigrants and working class voters.
So what sorts of lessons areyou taking away from that?
I, I mean, are we, canwe call it a wave yet?
Like, I don't know.
Katie Wilson (11:30):
I think, I think it's a
wave.
Nora Kenworthy (11:31):
Okay.
Yay.
Katie Wilson (11:34):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I think that what's happening
here is we are in a moment where.
Cities, blue cities.
I, I suppose I would say across thecountry there are some similar forces
at work and it's really national.
And, and, and part of this is themoment that we're in is obviously the
Trump Trump moment as well, right?
(11:55):
So last fall we had an election wherethe kind of stodgy establishment
Democratic party utterly failedto stop this train wreck.
And.
Is clearly out of touchwith, with the average voter.
And so I think there's justthis kind of disillusionment
with that style of politics.
(12:15):
And I think we're seeing incumbents, andI wouldn't include Harold in this, and
I, I, I'm not gonna say that Harrell's,the, the Andrew Cuomo of Seattle, other
people, other people have drawn thatcomparison, but I'm not gonna say that.
Um, but I do think that he doesnot break the mold of that,
that style of politics, right.
That he's been in office for.
18 years.
Uh, he is a very transactional politician.
(12:37):
Um, and so I think there's a, a reallydeep disillusionment with that and
a realization that that's not, um,a politics that meets the moment.
Um, and then the affordability crisis isanother big part of the moment we're in
right where coming out of the pandemic,um, we've just seen the cost of everything
skyrocket from housing to groceries, tochildcare, and, uh, people aren't feeling
(12:58):
that their elected leaders are are.
Leading on that, frankly.
Um, and so I think there's, we're in thismoment where the desire, I think there's
a perennial desire for government todeliver and get results that people have
been frustrated by for a very long time.
Right.
It's been very long since people hadfaith in, in government, and I think
that means that every election cycle.
(13:18):
There, there tends to be a, a kick thebastards out kind of mentality, right?
And it swings from, you know, endsup swinging from left to right.
So I think we're in a moment wherethat desire for results is coinciding
with this disillusionment, with thiscertain brand of, of establishment
democratic party politics.
And of course alsodisillusionment with Trump.
And you know, that's not as much ofa factor in Seattle where everyone
(13:39):
was already disillusioned to Trump.
But, um, anyway, so that's justkind of like the moment that
we're in and I think that's.
Playing out in, obviously in NewYork City, uh, playing out here,
playing out in Minneapolis and, andsome other cities around the country.
Marcus Harrison Green (13:52):
Yeah, and I mean, you've, I mean, you touched on it, right?
But I mean, there are so many, quoteunquote blue cities that continue to
have issues with I income inequality,continue to have issues with the
fa uh, with housing affordability.
You know, I'm thinking, you know, our,our coastal neighbors in Portland and
Seattle, our, or at least our, ourWest Coast neighbors, I should say.
And so I'm wondering, can you talk alittle bit more about your housing policy?
(14:15):
'cause I, I do think it's somethingthat could be instructive for,
for other cities potentially.
Katie Wilson (14:21):
Yeah, sure.
And I guess just, just to say one morething about kind of the moment we're in.
Um, I also think that it's importantfor those of us, you know, on the
left who look like we might besoon to win positions of power, not
to over interpret or misinterpretthe moment we're in, right?
Because we saw in Seattle the lasttwo elections were kind of backlashes
(14:41):
against progressive politics.
Um.
And now we're seeing kind of a backlashto a backlash where people kind
of had buyer's remorse and they'relooking at what the current mayor
and city council are trying to do,and they're like, oh, wait, wait.
This isn't, this isn't what we wanted.
Um, so I, but I think it's important to,to, to realize that that part of what's
going on here is that, um, people justwant government that works and that
(15:05):
delivers for people, and that's notreally a left right coded thing per se.
Um, and so I think it'sreally important for.
People like me who might be steppinginto office to also realize that
like, that is what people want.
And part of our challenge is, you know,not just to get up there and be a, um,
someone who's shout shouting about taxingthe rich and, um, giving away free stuff.
(15:28):
But, but to actually makesure that our government is
functioning, um, well day to day.
And, you know, we.
There's no excuse in Seattle fornot having like the best functioning
municipal government in America.
Right.
So I think, um, I think that that'sjust a really important point is
that we shouldn't over interpret thisbecause four years from now, if we
aren't actually doing a good job, um,and delivering things, then things
(15:52):
could easily swing back the other way.
Right.
Um, so anyway, now to yourquestion, Marcus, about housing.
So.
Yeah, I mean the housing crisishas been, has been the kind of
underlying factor in so many of the.
Problems that we face inSeattle for so long, right?
And including the homelessness crisis.
Um, it, it's a huge driver and right.
(16:15):
I mean, I think we all rememberlike 10 years ago when Seattle and
King County first declared a civilstate of emergency on homelessness.
And like we have justseen things get worse.
And that is, um, you know, homelessnessis complex, but it's also simple.
And the simple part is thatit's about housing costs.
And, uh, so.
In order to tackle our housing crisis,which affects people all across
(16:35):
the income scale, um, we have todo a whole range of things, right?
There's not one solution and partof it is about housing supply.
You know, part of it is thefact that our region has been
growing and growing and growing.
Uh, people have beencoming here for tech jobs.
People have been coming here for allkinds of reasons, and our housing supply
simply has not grown to match and that.
Partly because of restrictive, uh,zoning laws that, you know, go back
(16:58):
to redlining, exclusionary zoning.
Um, and we really need to make itpossible to build more multifamily
housing and neighborhoods across the city,especially, um, you know, historically,
um, white, wealthy exclusionaryneighborhoods that have great amenities.
Um, and so that is.
That is one big part of the,the, the, um, the puzzle.
(17:20):
Um, and at the same time, we alsoknow that that's not enough, right?
And that sometimes the waydevelopment has been done has
also contributed to displacement.
Um, and so we need to be taking measuresto prevent displacement, and we need to
be doing a lot to affirmatively build andcreate affordable housing because it's not
gonna automatically trickle down to createaffordable housing, especially for the.
(17:45):
The poorest households.
Um, and so there's wheresocial housing comes in, right?
We need to go big on social housing,do everything we can to get that
social housing developer rolling.
Um.
And we also need to continue to supportour more traditional models of affordable
housing, you know, through low incomehousing tax, credit program, et cetera.
Um, also support affordablehome ownership programs.
(18:05):
And, you know, homestead Community LandTrusts is, you know, doing great work.
We have other, you know, Africa Town,other land trusts that, uh, you know,
sometimes it's a mix of kind of a, arenter model and an ownership model.
Um, but there's a lot of great creativework being done in Seattle that the
city should continue to support.
Um.
And, uh, yeah.
And then rent protections as well.
Right.
I think that there's ways that we canstrengthen protections for the majority
(18:28):
of Seattle households that rent that,um, growing majority that, uh, will.
Help to stabilize rents andincrease housing stability.
So it's kind of an all of theabove approach to the housing
crisis, and that is the only waythat we're gonna move the needle.
Nora Kenworthy (18:42):
Yeah.
I love what you're saying about reallyspeaking to the issues that are really
impacting the majority of Seattleites.
The thing about Seattle politics,which I know you know, is
that there are big, powerful.
Institutional actors in the room, uh,from corporations to police guilds
who can powerfully sort of stepon the levers to slow things down.
(19:06):
I mean, we've seen that withcorporations like Amazon in the past.
Um, so how are you thinking, um, shouldyou become mayor about how to actually
shift some of those power imbalances?
Um, and.
Um, you know, kind of move thepolicymaking towards, um, something
that really serves people ofSeattle rather than the sort of
(19:28):
business influence the bureaucracyand the, the corporate interests.
Katie Wilson (19:32):
Yeah, that, that is a great question and.
I think there's a few parts to the answer.
So one is, you know, my work overthe years I've been, um, community
organizer, I'm a coalition builder, right?
So all of the, the big victories that,um, I've been a part of over the years
have been about coalition building,bringing together many organizations,
individuals, keeping everyone movingtoward a common vision, um, and.
(19:55):
All of the relationships that I'vebuilt up over the years doing that.
Like I know so many like amazingpassionate people in Seattle who are, um,
just incredibly skilled and, and competentand, um, experts in their fields.
And so it's really about kind ofassembling that team that can push
forward a vision and not being afraidto, to ruffle some feathers, frankly.
I mean, I think, um, yeah, I meanit's kind of this balance between.
(20:19):
It's like building the rightcoalition that's gonna just
get, get those things done.
And I guess one way that I've beenthinking about this is that, um, not to,
not to, not to pretend that I understandall the motivations of the current
mayor, but I do think that, at leastfrom what I've heard, there's a sense in
which like, he's been very focused on.
Keeping together the coalitionthat will get him reelected.
(20:43):
Um, and that means really not angeringany of the power players, right?
Um, it means kind of giving thisperson a little bit here and this, you
know, these guys a little bit here.
Um, and what that means is thatyou end up kind of paralyzed.
Um, and I really think that's justthe wrong way to govern, right?
I think that 'cause it's not,that's not a vision, right?
(21:03):
That's not a vision for the city.
That's a vision of like.
I wanna get reelected, and so thereforeI have to placate all these interests
and balance all these interests.
Mm-hmm.
And so I think what we really need isthat affirmative vision for the city
that we want all want to live in, right?
One that is affordable, onethat's walkable, one that's, you
know, a place where a. I mean,speaking as a renter, right?
(21:24):
Like you could raise a familyin an apartment building.
And, um, there we've got great parksand we have great amenities and um,
and so we need to rally people aroundthat vision and then not be afraid
to ruffle feathers and go againstpowerful interests in getting there.
And you can't do that without,uh, shaking things up and you
(21:47):
can't, it's kind of okay, like.
I'm not gonna step in thereand be thinking about what I
need to do to get reelected.
I'm gonna step in there and thinkabout what do we need to do to realize
this vision that a, a large majorityof Seattle residents believe in.
It's like happiness, right?
It's like if you spend yourlife trying to be happy, you're
gonna be miserable, right?
(22:07):
Like you need to.
You need to like be pushing for me forlike having a meaningful life, right?
You need to do things that aremeaningful and then maybe if
you're lucky, you're happy, right?
This is like you need to have a visionand go for that vision and then like.
Maybe if you're lucky, you get reelected.
Right?
So this is not the way politicsnormally works, but I think it's
the way politics should work, right?
Because it's not, ultimately,it's not about you.
(22:28):
It's not about the politician, it'sabout, um, it's about the vision.
It's about, you know, what you'reactually trying to achieve for the city.
Marcus Harrison Green (22:35):
Yeah.
Katie Wilson, come for the politicsand stay for the Buddhist life wisdom.
I love it.
I love it.
Um, no, I, I, I do wanna ask you,because something I've noticed,
and this was similar to when, um.
Momani won the primary in New York.
You had a lot of sort of establishment.
Uh, Democrats, if you will, who cayou know, even some people who, you
(22:57):
know, bill themselves as progressive,who came out, you know, for, uh,
his opponent, Cuomo and so forth.
It, that was something, you know, similarthat honestly happened here, um, in
Seattle where you had a lot of this.
Uh, prominent Democrats come outfor your opponent, Bruce Harrell.
And, and so I'm wondering, you, youkind of, you mentioned them a little
(23:17):
bit in your, uh, primary Knight speech.
I
Katie Wilson (23:21):
didn't name any names, Marcus.
I I didn't say I I didn't say
Marcus Harrison Green (23:24):
you named any, but you had alluded, okay.
Is that, is that an accurate, is thata, is that an accurate assessment?
You alluded to folks.
Yeah, I did.
I did.
And so, but this is what I wanna ask you.
I mean.
Do you, well, one, have, have any ofthose people reached spec out to you?
And then two, how can we, particularlywhat I've continued to see in the
Democratic party is like folks just seemto, to back the same old horses where when
(23:49):
we do really need change and, you know,and that continues to, to play out, you
know, throughout, you know, this country.
And so how do we.
How can we get some of the old guard,if you will, to open up their eyes to be
like, Hey, what, what has been working,what has happened in the past is not
working, so we need to do something else.
And a and a part of doing somethingelse, something else new is to have
(24:11):
new, new people doing it, if you will.
Katie Wilson (24:14):
Yeah.
I mean, I think, good question.
And I think that.
I mean, just thinking about my racebeing in first place on primary
night and potentially cracking 50% ineight way primary will probably help
some of those people come on board.
So, um, you know, uh,it's, it's early, right?
This is, we're just, you're not
Marcus Harrison Green (24:34):
calling anybody an opportunist or anything.
Katie Wilson (24:37):
We're just two days after the primary.
Um, so give them some time.
Um, and I'll also just say, I mean, look,I. I try not to be a petty person, so
like I understand the position that that.
Individuals, politicians are in,that, many organizations are in,
where they have a working relationshipwith the mayor's office, a working
relationship with the city.
(24:57):
And so especially when you havea, a mayor in there who is a
very transactional person, right?
Like that, it's a risk to, to jumpon board a challengers campaign,
like when it's not proven.
And so I'm not like nohard feelings, right?
Like I, I get the positionthat people are in, but at the
same time, that also makes me.
Um, extra value.
(25:17):
Those who, those who have the faithto, um, to, uh, to join our campaign.
And I, and just, just to give a shoutout there, I mean, ProTech 17, right?
The largest union of city workers thatendorsed our campaign a few weeks ago.
You know, pre-primary, um, I. Justastounded by, um, you know, the integrity
of, of their union leadership and process.
(25:39):
And, um, you know, theyare taking a huge risk.
We're taking a huge risk by, um,jumping on board with our campaign.
Um, so yeah, I mean, there's,there's a lot of, there's, there's
folks with courage out there too.
Marcus Harrison Green (25:50):
Yeah, I, I also just wanna say that my,
my mom, mama Green was down.
Day one, you know, if that means anything.
Anyhow,
Nora Kenworthy (25:58):
she was like in the campaign lit, right?
Marcus Harrison Green (26:01):
Yes, she was.
She was
Nora Kenworthy (26:03):
Marcus.
Katie Wilson (26:03):
That's, that's why we're winning.
We know that's why we're winning.
Marcus Harrison Green (26:07):
I didn't wanna say anything.
You know, she's a humble woman.
Mama Green
Nora Kenworthy (26:09):
is like her own political block.
We all know it.
Um, okay.
I don't mean to ask a painfulstress inducing question 'cause
you've already had quite a week.
Um, but you, you crushedit in this primary, um.
And we've seen this story before acrossthe country where a progressive wave
just like kind of crashes through aprimary and then runs into a ton of
(26:32):
corporate money and scare tactics andjust unsavory behavior during campaigns.
Um, we've already seen a bit of that.
Directed towards you, how are youthinking about the strategy ahead in
terms of, you know, continuing to runaccording to your values and to, um,
you know, finance, what is gonna be a,a very competitive race, um, with the
(26:56):
kinds of money that you're up against?
Katie Wilson (26:59):
Yeah.
I mean, I, I don't, and this is, thisis the, uh, maybe the downside of
having such a strong primary resultis, uh, you know, hopefully, hopefully
people aren't going away beinglike, oh, she's got it in the bag.
We don't need to fight'cause it's gonna be a fight.
Mm-hmm.
Believe me, it's gonna be a fight.
Right.
And so we already saw in the primary, youknow, there's a, a corporate funded pack
for Harold, which, um, you know, raisedseveral hundred thousand dollars and.
(27:23):
You have to believe that there is gonnabe a lot of money, um, piling up in that
pack, um, to, to defeat me in November.
Um, and so the, we've already seentheir lines of attacks, right?
They're trying to paint me as,uh, the, the second coming of.
And, uh, as, as a advocatefor defunding the police.
(27:44):
Um, and so you could expectthose attacks to really ramp up.
Um, and so yeah, we're, we'retrying to prepare for that.
Um, I mean, it, I, I feel like they'repretty weak lines of attack actually.
Honestly, it was like my publicsafety platforms on my website.
Um, and honestly like Harold's recordon public safety and his running
of the police department has been.
(28:06):
Pretty poor.
Um, and so I think a lot of thisis just gonna be, look, here's our
plan and here's what the currentmayor's failed to do, um, and.
You know, honestly, with results thisstrong, like I'm gonna be putting a
significant amount of time now movingforward, not just into campaigning, but
to, into actually making sure that I'mready to step into office on day one.
(28:27):
And so that means, you know, buildingout that transition team, um, and,
and making more, much more detailed,I guess I would say plans for, um, for
what I'm gonna do, um, in every realm.
And so.
I look forward to that conversationabout public safety this fall,
actually, because I think we coulddo a lot better on a lot of fronts.
Um, and, uh, but okay, to answeryour question, which is, uh,
(28:50):
how are we gonna win this fight?
Ultimately the answer is gonna be ourground game and our ability to reach the
people of Seattle with a message thatis positive and, um, that puts forward
that vision that we can all believe in.
You know, we've had, we have, uh,like 800 people in the primary who've
volunteered in one way or another,and we're gonna be growing that force.
(29:12):
And so we are gonna build the biggestranking game the city's ever seen.
We're gonna get out thereand knock those doors.
We're gonna talk to people, we're gonna,um, just reach voters in every way we can.
So, um, and that's gonna be thestrength of our campaign because we have
enthusiasm and momentum on our side.
Um, and I don't think that,uh, our opponent does.
Nora Kenworthy (29:31):
Yeah, I mean, and I just wanna, like, your
ground game has been amazing.
Um, I've been able to get out thevote for, for you in North Seattle.
I remember when you first announcedyour campaign, there was like
a Google form that you werecirculating that was like, Hey.
Can anyone help with my childcare?
Can anyone help?
Like drive me to events?
You know?
And it was like, it was areal like community effort.
(29:54):
And I think we've lost some of that withthese like huge big money campaigns.
And people forget that Seattle'sa pretty small city of connected
communities and I think you reallyhave been bringing them together.
Katie Wilson (30:07):
Thank you.
Well, I, I have to say that I amjust like so grateful for everyone
who has stepped up and volunteeredin so many different ways.
Right?
We just have like kick ass peoplehelping with our social media and
like yeah, as you say, like driving mearound when I need to a ride somewhere.
And, um, and yeah, I mean it's just, Ifeel like campaigning is stressful, but
I also just feel so supported, like somany people are, are really stepping
(30:30):
up and it just feels like a real Yeah.
Community team effort.
Marcus Harrison Green (30:34):
Yeah.
I got it.
I gotta ask you, 'cause I mean,you're, you know, uh, Nora and I,
we were joking, um, in the introto the show about, you know, um.
The fact that, you know, just, Idon't know, maybe three years ago
you and I are making five bucksstretch and sharing Americano,
uh, at an independent coffee shop.
Of course, we don't do Starbucks, but,uh, you're just, you know, I mean,
(30:58):
you're just a regular person, right?
I mean, you have a. In, in, in the, inthe, you know, most, and I mean that in
the most like honorific sense of that,of like, you're not, you know, some
billionaire, you're not, some lobbyist,you're not some, uh, democratic operative.
You're a normal person who wanted to just,quite frankly, just do the right thing
and is trying to make our city better.
(31:18):
And so I want to ask you, thereare so many people, you know,
listening, so many fuck people.
Who I've, you know, touched base with in,in my capacity as a reporter who are like,
does it actually make a difference to run?
And at one and then two, you know,they feel very intimidated, you know,
at the prospect of running because of.
(31:40):
Because of what, you know, we'veoutlined already in this conversation.
There's so much money, there'sso much, there's, there's
press sticking into your life.
There's, um, you know, bad actors who manytimes want to, want to see a progressive,
uh, you know, and their downfall.
And so what message would you have forthose people who are, I don't know.
They're in, I'm actually just in mymind, I'm thinking about somebody, uh.
(32:03):
A friend of mine in San Antonio,Texas with all the craziness
that's going on in Texas right now.
Thinking about running for the, thelegislature over there, you know, what,
what would you say to those people who arelike, you know, I don't, I don't feel like
I am either, uh, you know, I don't havethe quote unquote cache or the charisma
or the, or the money, you know, to run.
(32:25):
And yet they would probably bevery well equipped to do so.
Katie Wilson (32:30):
Yeah, I mean, I would say go for it.
I mean, that's the optimistic answer.
Like, we need people to, tostep out of their comfort zone.
And if, if, you know, if you're someonewho, um, kind of is in a position to be
able to, to do that and to give voiceto your neighbors and you know, the
people that you interact with every daywho maybe don't, you know, aren't in
a position to do that, like go for it.
(32:50):
But I think the bigger answer is thatI also feel like collectively on kind
of the left, broadly speaking, um.
We need to build more of theinfrastructure to support candidates
and to, uh, you know, run candidatesfor office and also support and organize
behind them in office to actually getthe things done that we wanna get done.
Because I think we live in a worldwhere that kind of universe of
(33:14):
like campaign consultants and partypeople and just all the kind of like
political class, it's kind of a vortexthat like, even if you're kind of.
Uh, a, a, a good, legitimate,normal person candidate, right?
Like you can get sucked intoand turned into something else.
And I think we need a much more likecommunity based, um, independent kind
(33:36):
of infrastructure for supporting,uh, supporting, I mean, I'm just
thinking locally right now, but likesupporting local candidates and making
sure that they're able to actuallydeliver on, on big things in office.
Nora Kenworthy (33:48):
Yeah, for sure.
And I wanna follow up and aska little bit more about that
sort of like infrastructure.
Um, because Seattle also has ademocracy vouchers program, which
yay just got renewed by voters.
Um, and this program enables voters tosupport candidates without large donors
or independent money to run for office.
Um, in New York, mom Donny's campaignseems to have benefited from the
(34:12):
city's ranked choice voting system.
Do you think that these types of changesto electoral systems are helping shift
politics back towards the people and.
As mayor, what other changeswould you like to see introduced
in cities like Seattle?
Katie Wilson (34:25):
Yeah, I mean, I think the democracy about voucher
program is am amazing, and I donot know that we would've been able
to run this campaign without it.
So I'm really thrilled that, uh,voters really strongly also passed
that at the ballot this August.
Um, and I'll say like before,before I was a candidate.
I thought the democracy voucherprogram was cool, but it's
(34:46):
just like, yeah, it's cool.
But now as a candidate, it's reallytransformative, both in the sense
that it allows someone who's notcoming from a, a wealthy kind
of, uh, mil like me to, to run.
Um, but also it really changesthe incentives for candidates
in such a good way, right?
Because like if, if I was trying torun this game or this campaign without
(35:07):
democracy vouchers, like me and myteam would just be like in a room.
Calling like wealthy Democratic partydonors trying to get money out of them.
And then those would be the people thatwe were kind of accountable to, right?
'cause they like funded our campaign.
But with democracy vouchers, like everysingle person in the city has something
that is potentially of value to you.
And so you as a candidate.
(35:27):
As a campaign, have the incentiveto be out there talking to
normal people every single day.
And that's what we've been doing.
I have spent zero minutes on the phoneasking for money, um, and instead I'm out
there talking to people on the streets,at the farmer's market, at the doors,
and that's what all of our, uh, you know,campaign folks and volunteers are doing.
Um, so I just think it's reallyfantastic and it really does.
(35:48):
Provide that ability fornon-traditional candidates to run.
Um, and yeah, I, I would loveto see more cities around the
country copy that as, as well.
Um, for sure.
It,
Nora Kenworthy (35:59):
it's like such a magical program.
It's a magical thing thatlike all the local candidates.
Are walking through neighborhoods,talking to people and asking them
for their support, and peoplehave a way to support them.
Yep.
Financially for free.
It's just an extraordinary thing.
Katie Wilson (36:14):
It really is.
And, and I guess in terms of sayinglike, what else do we need to do?
So, um, since we're here with Marcus,um, I'm gonna just give a plug for, uh.
A wild idea that Marcus and I andothers in the journalism space have
been talking about for a few yearsnow, which is basically a program
kind of like democracy vouchers, butfor supporting local news outlets.
(36:37):
Um, and you know, we're in a, a timewhen there's just not a viable funding
model for independent journalism.
Um, and so we've seen newsrooms aroundthe country like downsizing or closing,
and we've seen, um, you know, somany news deserts around the country.
Seattle's in like a. Somewhat betterposition than a lot of places, but like
we used to have two daily newspapers.
We used to have two alternative weeklies.
(36:57):
And, um, and it really having that kind ofpaucity of, um, of news outlets and, uh,
and, and so many of the ones that existright, are just like struggling and they
don't have as many reporters as they want.
Right.
And.
That really just creates a kind ofimpoverished information environment
that allows extremism to flourish andjust means that people don't, um, like
(37:20):
we're just not able to keep powerfulinstitutions in governments respon,
uh, uh, accountable in the same way.
Um, and so a program like democracyvouchers, but for funding local
news outlets would basicallyenable there to be this kind of.
Uh, citizen driven public fundingwithout the government actually
deciding like where that money goes.
Um, and I think thatcould just be amazing.
(37:40):
It could just give a real boost toa lot of the, the small neighborhood
based news outlets that we already have.
It could inspire more to startand it could just result in, um,
just like a much, I mean, 'causedemocracy's not just when we elect
people every four years, right?
It's about the information that we get.
Every day, um, of, of everyone of those four years.
And so I think that would be a reallycool thing to pioneer here in Seattle.
Marcus Harrison Green (38:03):
Yeah.
Here, here.
I roundly agree.
I, um,
Nora Kenworthy (38:08):
it's such a cool idea.
Marcus Harrison Green (38:10):
Yeah.
We will, there'll be afuture episode on that.
I'm sure.
Uh, that, that being said, and I knowwe're, we're, we're 30 minutes in and
we, we almost got through the entireepisode of talking about Terra 47.
But alas, he corrodes all ofour lives here, so I want to.
I wanna ask you, Katie, um, you know,all of us in this interview have the
(38:31):
distinction of belonging to demographicsthat our current orange overlord would
happily deport, gag or strip of basicbodily autonomy before breakfast.
Um, and so I I want to ask you if, if youwere elected, you know, you'd be serving
as progressive mayor in a blue city.
And that's the tall, tall, tall order.
(38:53):
So in what areas do you think there'ssome meaningful local policy that could
help actually, you know, protect ourmarginalized communities here under what
is, quite frankly just growing fascism?
Katie Wilson (39:08):
Yeah.
Um, very good question.
So there's a number of pieces to this.
So one that I often start with is.
Revenue.
A lot of things come down to moneywhen you're talking about the city.
Um, and so when we're seeing.
Potential cuts to federal grant programsthat are gonna impact the city budget when
(39:28):
we're seeing potential cuts to, uh, ornot potential at this point, but actually
coming cuts to Medicaid to snap benefitsthat are gonna impact Seattle residents.
Right?
The city is gonna need to really step upand, you know, working with the county,
working with the state, um, we are goingto need to come up with new progressive
revenue to make sure that we're able to.
Um, protect people and, and that people,uh, are not left without healthcare
(39:51):
access, that are not left without foodaccess, um, not left without housing.
Um, and, you know, all, all the, allthe pieces of the budget that are
endangered by, um, the, the federalgovernment cutting or withholding funds.
So, um, that is one big area thatthe city's gonna really need to
lead on in in the coming years.
Um, of course.
With ice and the kind of superchargingof, uh, funding for ice that's, uh, coming
(40:16):
through in the, the bill that just passed.
Um, that's another whole area wherethe city's gonna need to step up and.
You know, looking at some of thethings that other cities around
the country are doing, there's,there's some cities who are actually
directing their law enforcement tointervene in unlawful ice operations.
I think that's something weshould look in here, right?
We, we can't have masked un badgedpeople walking around our city or, you
(40:39):
know, yanking people into vans, right?
Um, that could be anyone.
Um, and, uh, so I, I think wereally need to, uh, to look at that.
And I know, you know,the mayor of Boston has.
Then like filing foia, freedomof Information Act request to get
additional transparency aroundwho ICE is detaining and why.
Just like everything that we cando to, um, kind of interfere with,
(41:01):
with their operations the better.
Um, I also think we need.
Uh, some clarity around what, um, ourlaw enforcement should be doing when
there are protests around ICE operations.
'cause there's certainly been caseswhere it looks like, um, SPD or this
has happened in other cities too.
Law enforcement is collaboratingwhereas they're not supposed to.
Right.
(41:21):
We have our Keep Washington WorkingAct, which prohibits local law
enforcement from collaborating with ice.
So we need to.
Have some more clarity around kindof what that, what that line is.
Um, and in general, the cityjust needs to work very closely.
We have an amazing, um, you know,advocates, uh, you know, immigrant
community organizations in Seattle thatare doing the hard work of, uh, you know,
(41:42):
building out rapid response networksand, um, you know, supporting immigrant
communities, making sure people don't haveto go to immigration hearings alone, um,
supporting people who've been detained.
And so the city should be workingvery, very closely with all of those
folks and making sure that they havethe, the support that they need.
Nora Kenworthy (41:58):
I think we wanted to also ask you just a broader question
about what your campaign teachesprogressives across the country.
Um, you know, you're really comingto this work as an organizer, as an
advocate, now as a candidate, um,in this moment in time, which feels
like just such an incredible uphill.
(42:19):
Struggle.
Um, what do you think are the waysthat progressives can claim and hold
onto power, um, either inside thesystem or outside of it, or both?
Um, what sorts of actions do you hopepeople take away from your campaign
and begin to carry into other placesand communities around the us?
(42:40):
Hmm.
Katie Wilson (42:43):
Yeah, good question.
I mean, I would say that I think the.
The strength of my campaign, or maybeme as a candidate is largely the
work that I've done, you know, as acommunity organizer with the Transit
Writers Union, as a coalition builder,with all of the coalitions that I've,
um, you know, built over the years.
(43:05):
It's the fact that all of that workresulted in real tangible benefits for.
Thousands of people in theirdaily lives every day, right?
I think that is what peopleare looking for right now.
So you know when I'm able togo out and say like, look, we.
Raise the minimum wage tothe highest in the country in
several cities around the county.
(43:26):
We won stronger runnerprotections in eight cities.
We, um, you know, we improved thepublic transit system and won free
and reduced fair programs that, youknow, tens of thousands of riders use.
We've, uh, you know, won thejumpstart tax, right, which
saved the city budget, right?
Those are such concrete things thatpeople can really understand, um,
how people are benefiting from that.
And it, and it addresses those, um.
(43:49):
Affordability, quality of life, um,issues that people are facing every day.
And so I think that really is what thosebread and butter issues are, really what
people wanna see action on right now.
And so I think that is what'sresonating with people above all.
And so what I would say to, you know,progressives around the country is, um.
Let's fight for those things.
(44:10):
Right.
Fight for those things and,and show people that we can
really move the, the needle.
We're not just all talk.
Marcus Harrison Green (44:15):
Yeah.
Their, their side has Elon and, andJeff Bezos and our side has you.
So I, uh, I, I like our odds, Katie.
I like our odds a lot.
Anyhow.
Oh boy.
Thank you so, so much formaking time, uh, for us today.
Katie Wilson (44:30):
Thank you both.
Yeah.
Wonderful to, to chat with you.
Nora Kenworthy (44:33):
Yeah.
And congrats.
Hope you get some sleepat some point soon.
In the next few months.
Yeah, yeah,
Marcus Harrison Green (44:40):
yeah, yeah.
Very much.
Looking forward to those returns.
Uh, ex widening, uh, today at four 30, so.
Katie Wilson (44:49):
Yes.
Yes.
We'll see what happens.
Feeling, feeling positive about it all
Marcus Harrison Green (44:53):
as you should.
Yeah.
Well I will.
We'll let you go and, and seriously, myfriend, thank you so much just for this.
Thank you for everythingand for everything else.
Katie Wilson (45:02):
Yeah, of course.
Thank you both.
Talk to you later.
Nora Kenworthy (45:12):
Well, I gotta say, Marcus, you officially have.
The greatest friend network ofanyone I know, and thank you
for sharing Katie with us today.
Marcus Harrison Green (45:24):
I'm not going to be humble about having a
great friend network, so I wouldjust say yes, Nora, thank you.
You, uh, you are, I mean, honestly,you are one of 'em as well.
So, um, you know, just to affirm all ofthat, I, and I gotta say, um, again, just
to reiterate what we talked about earlier.
Katie is just a regular, normalperson who literally was like,
(45:49):
there's something that needs to bedone in our city and so let me do it.
And I know how corny andcliche that possibly sounds.
I get it.
But also, you know, sometimes cornyand cliche is, is is just fine.
I think ultimately, you know, I hope moreand more people start to ask themselves
this question of like, why not me?
(46:10):
Why, why shouldn't I run for somethingand why can't I impact change?
And you know what the, the answermany people will get is you can.
So yeah, I, I, I look at Katie asa. Regardless of what happens in
November, I mean, of course I, I knowwhat I hope happens, but regardless
of what happens in November, I thinkshe is very much a, a wonderful
(46:32):
example and demonstration of whatmore people should be doing right now.
Nora Kenworthy (46:37):
Yeah.
Well, I think that's a greatsegue to our eight ounces of joy.
Do you wanna go first?
Marcus Harrison Green (46:43):
Yeah.
Um, so.
I, I've alluded to it several times inthis show today, but over in Texas there
are 50 Democratic lawmakers who bouncedout of the state, uh, due to the fact
that they wanted to block this horrid,uh, redistricting effort that would jury
(47:05):
man, essentially the state of Texas andgive, uh, Republicans five more additional
seats right before the midterm elections.
Um, and this is basically.
President Trump saying that, you know,I want to make sure, even though I have
extremely unpopular policies, like theone big ugly fucking bill, um, to, uh,
(47:28):
as one of our previous guests refer to itas like, I want to ensure that there is
no such thing as democracy essentially,and I just want to make sure that I,
that we can go on with our policiesno matter how unpopular they might be.
So you had 50 Democraticstate lawmakers who were like,
(47:49):
uh, you know, uh, fuck that.
That kind of sounds a lot like fascism.
And so we're bouncing to Illinoisand, and elsewhere around the country.
Uh, long story short, uh, that has notset well with Texas Governor Greg Abbott,
who is asked their Supreme Court to removethe Democratic caucus chair Gene Wu and.
(48:11):
As well as, uh, the FBI has gotteninvolved under FBI, director K Patel, who,
uh, if you're keeping SCORE at home, usedto be a conspiracy theorist, podcaster,
and now somehow runs the FBI agency.
And so anyhow, I saidall that to say maybe
Nora Kenworthy (48:29):
at least he'll be really bad at directing
the FBI to find these guys.
Marcus Harrison Green: You know, that is true. (48:34):
undefined
Incompetence could actually comeinto play in a good way here.
Which, which is why I have to say, I,I have to give a shout out to, uh, Jean
Wu, the Democratic Caucus chair overin Texas, because he said, and I quote.
This isn't my seat.
The seat belongs to thepeople of the state of Texas.
(48:56):
Until the people of the stateof Texas tell me to go away.
I will stay here and fightwith everything that I have.
This is not about me.
This is not about Democrats.
This is not about political power.
This is about protecting what webelieve and love about America and.
So I gotta say like, gene Vu is actuallydemonstrating some level of courage.
(49:18):
Mm-hmm.
Uh, in the fact that he's, you know,he and the other democratic legislators
are out of the, the state of Texas.
And trying not to comeback to make sure this.
Just quite frankly, blatantpower grab does not happen.
And I will say, as with, uh, somany of our American institutions,
whether it is the news media, whetherit is academia, quite frankly, just
(49:42):
being profiles and cowardice mm-hmm.
It is good to, again, see more and moredemonstrations like this where people
are actually demonstrating courage anddemonstrating courage in a way that
they know that there could be blow back.
They know that there could beconsequences and they're like, fuck
it, I'm willing to deal with those.
Like, we need more Yeah.
Of these things happening and we needto, quite frankly, just spotlight
(50:04):
more of this happening so that,uh, this becomes more commonplace.
Nora Kenworthy (50:09):
Yes.
Well, mine is also about bravery thisweek, but in a totally different vein.
Um.
I had this one like on tap for this week.
It was happening for mebefore the election results.
And then the election results inSeattle were also such a source of joy.
And this conversation, honestly, withKatie Wilson was such a source of
joy and inspiration about the braveryto just stand up and do something.
(50:32):
Um, but um, so that's kindof the theme of my week.
I think.
Um, my, my week was full of.
A lot of announcements of commitmentsof love and new babies and
engagements from friends and family.
And I know it can seem like reallysmall and just like, sort of personal,
(50:55):
but many people that I, these, theseannouncements were coming from people
that I know have thought long andhard about how terrible the world is.
How hard it is to choose relationshipsand investing each in each other in times
when it feels like, what is tomorrow?
(51:16):
Like, what does next year look like?
Um, and I increasingly think that's areally radical and beautiful act, um, to
choose to deepen our relationships witheach other, with places that we love to
choose to bring other humans into thisworld, as bad as it seems, um, in whatever
form those commitments and relationships.
(51:37):
Look like for people.
Um, I think they're brave choices,um, and maybe even necessary
choices, and it feels joyful to beable to celebrate them right now.
So here's to people making braver choices.
Marcus Harrison Green (51:50):
Absolutely.
What a, a friend of mine said oncethat, um, yeah, or you reiterated
that quote that, uh, having aa child is a bet on the future.
R just means you'rejust fucking delusional.
So I wanna go with That's so true.
It's a bet on the future.
It's a, well, as someone who I gave
Nora Kenworthy (52:08):
birth the week before Trump was first elected, and I. Had
never really wanted to be a parent.
I thought the world was a prettyterrible place to bring children into.
Somehow became delusional enoughto like reverse that position.
And then Trump was elected, likeliterally the week that I gave birth.
Um, but I, I have to say, I think it isone of the most transformative things to
(52:33):
choose love, even in chimes of darknessand to choose to support each other.
Um.
And I think it's the only way weactually get through, actually.
Marcus Harrison Green (52:44):
Yeah.
I think that's the one of the easiest,best ways of rebellion right now.
So that's certainly one of themost accessible at this moment.
Nora Kenworthy (52:51):
I mean, if you can't flee Texas for Illinois
and piss off Greg Abbott.
You can also make a reallyconsequential life choice that
you might regret later on.
So true.
Kidding.
So true.
Well,
Marcus Harrison Green (53:08):
well on that note, can you start
the readouts, my good friend?
Nora Kenworthy (53:14):
Yes, I am.
Happy to.
Um, so congratulations to ourlisteners because you have made
it through another week in this.
Really awful group project we call theUnited States of America where no one
read the syllabus, and half the teamis live streaming their loyalty to
billionaires for clout, and the restof us are being barely held together
(53:36):
by caffeine and gallows humor and aslow burning fury that's too exhausted
to riot, but two bitters to log off.
I will stop talking now.
Marcus, please sign us off.
Marcus Harrison Green (53:49):
I just gotta underscore all that is truth.
I'll just say that.
Um,
well, as always, massive thank yous toour fearless producer, Jessica part now
who somehow keeps this ship afloat and toa Al Luo for blessing us with music that
makes our existential dread somehow justa little less dreadful you can follow.
In the meanwhile, wherever you get yourpodcasts are on YouTube, Instagram,
(54:12):
and yes, even Blue Sky for the fiveof you who actively post there daily.
Thank you.
We love you, Anthony, and ifyou wanna support the show.
We do, we do.
If you do want to support the show orjust pretend you're doing something
productive with your rage, head to inthe-meanwhile.com to subscribe or donate,
(54:32):
and if you get anything valuable fromthis episode or any of our episode.
Please share this show with yourfriends or with your enemies.
We don't really care.
We just want somebody to listen to us.
We're not picky.
Not at all, not at all.
A reminder that new episodes dropevery Friday, and until then,
we'll see you in the meanwhile.
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