Ep 5: Dean Spade

Dean Spade joins Nora and Marcus for a conversation about how our relationships show up in our activism, politics, and everyday life.

Mentioned in the episode:

Love in a F*cked Up World by Dean Spade | Love in a Fucked Up World Podcast | Mutual Aid by Dean Spade | Facing Collapse Together study group | Movement Memos: Bizarre and Dangerous Utopian Ideology Has Quietly Taken Hold of Tech World | Pipsqueak | Left Bank Books | Exarcheia | Inside Exarcheia on The Guardian (2019) | Demise of a neighborhood on Politico (2023) | New Jersey ICE escape | Lime Bike Barricade in Seattle

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Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission.

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Episode Transcript

Dean (00:00):
It changed my life to have one solid experience of

(00:04):
actual repair and forgiveness.
I want everyone to have this, andthe only way we get there is with
all the little things, you know?

Nora (00:18):
Welcome back to another episode of In The Meanwhile, I'm Nora Kenworthy.

Marcus (00:22):
And I'm Marcus Harrison.
Green.

Nora (00:24):
And today we're turning our focus a bit more inwards, uh, to some of the more
personal ways that people are impactedby and getting through the meanwhile.

Marcus (00:33):
That's right.
As I mentioned before, these arelucrative times for my therapist.

Nora (00:37):
Mine too.
And I will also say that I really didn'texpect to be like still fighting with
my spouse about who does the dishesduring, like the slow apocalypse.
Like I feel like we get one or the other,but somehow having to deal with real life.
And live through the, the apocalypseat the same time is a drain
on my resources and patience.
I

Marcus (00:56):
completely get that.
I've, I've been doing my best to, toequalize the labor in my own household.
And like most men, I've been failing.
So, um, I was reminded of that just lastnight, but, um, hey, it's tomorrow, today,
and tomorrow's another day to do better.
So here we go.

Nora (01:12):
Constant struggle.
Yeah.
Um, but today we have someone joiningus who can offer some particular wisdom
about these struggles and the ways thatwe come into relation with each other.

Marcus (01:25):
Yeah, this is going to be an excellent, excellent episode.
I mean, they all are, let'sbe honest, but super proud of
this one, so let's get into it.
Yeah.
Awesome.
And it is a great honor and pleasureto be in conversation today with Dean
Spade, who is the author of the recentlypublished book, love in a Fucked Up

(01:48):
World, how to Build RelationshipsHookup and Raise Hell Together.
Dean, it is so great to have you.
Thank you for having me on.
For those listeners who are not alreadyfamiliar with your incredible work, uh,
Dean is a queer and trans liberationscholar, activist, writer, and teacher.
He has worked for more than two decadesas a leading voice for trans liberation.

(02:09):
Prison abolition and mutual aid.
He's a professor of law at SeattleUniversity and so much more author
of the incredibly and widely read andpractice book, mutual Aid Building
Solidarity during this crisis.
And the next, which I personally justpicked up, created many mutual aid
resources for organizations like theMutual Aid Toolkit, and most recently

(02:30):
is the host of the new podcast Lovein a Fucked Up World, which just
launched with an amazing conversationwith the Adrian Marie Brown that
I encourage everyone to check out.
Again.
Dean, thank you so much forbeing here today with us.

Dean (02:45):
So excited to talk to you all.

Nora (02:47):
Dean, first of all, I just, um, I adored your book on Mutual
aid and I adored this book and itwas just a joyful, um, read and,
and, and a such a lovely thing toengage with at this moment in time.
Um.
As I was reading it, I was thinking aboutthe very wide range of work that you've
done in organizing and in liberation work.
And I was sort of thinking about thishilarious interlude that you have in

(03:11):
the first chapter of the book titled,yikes, you are reading a self-help book.
And I was wondering like, as you werewriting this, where you were feeling like,
yikes, I am writing a self-help book.
Like how did this happen?

Dean (03:22):
Yeah, I mean, so bad.
Like it took me 10 years to write thisbook, nine years to write this book in
large part because I was like racked withconcern and, and shame about writing it.
You know, I Oh yeah, have alwaysrelied on like a lot of self-help
and healing tools and books.
You know, they were some of thefirst things I read as a child.

(03:42):
Um mm-hmm.
And I have needed those tools, but Ialso have felt really critical of them
and really bit frustrated, like all the,you know, ways that they individualize
our problems and take our experiencesout of the context of white supremacy
and patriarchy and ableism capitalism.
And I've felt.
I've had to like kind of readthrough the lines a lot and even

(04:03):
also participating in like self-helpprograms of various kinds, I had to
kind of like, you know, look for whatI like and leave the rest kind of vibe.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but I, the genre is just, you know,the overall, the genre is like, and the
industry is like about, you know, youshould individually get yourself out of
this suffering that is, you know mm-hmm.
Suffering that we can only get outof with collective action, you know?

(04:25):
Mm-hmm.
To destroy these systems.
And so at the same, and at the same time,I have been in these movements for, you
know, 25 years or more and been like,just really seeing how the interpersonal
drama and conflict and, you know, notbeing aware of what's motivating us
and following like, really painful,problematic scripts from our culture.

(04:46):
That, that, you know, so much of thatunconscious behavior, it really gets
in the way of like us getting togetherand doing things that we need to do
to like save our lives and, um, yeah.
Destroy our opponents horribleocid, you know, genocidal plans.
And so.
Um, it's been this pull, push andpull for me, you know, to like, feel
the need for this kind of work andalso feel how, how stigmatized it is

(05:08):
and how sometimes that's appropriate.
And sometimes that's actually like, justthat we live in society that's like, kind
of sexist and says like, relationshipproblems are like girl, girl things.
And like that.
Like, you know, let's get backto the serious stuff of planning
this banner drop and this, these,you know, um, these actions.
And so, um, simultaneously reallywanting to bring attention to this
area where there's so much, um.

(05:30):
Dysfunction in our, in our movementsand in our social circles, in our lives.
And then also feeling soself-conscious about it, you know?

Marcus (05:38):
Yeah.
I, I mean, Dean, I, I know that the dimsare looking for the Joe Rogan of the left.
I mean, I, I think we have found that,you know, with you in terms of like a, so,
so much superior, just human being to beable to actually, um, process, you know,
the, these sort of interpersonal dynamicsif, if you will, that are going on.
So, um, but, uh, all kidding aside,I I want to ask you, you know,

(06:01):
this, this book really feels like itcomes from the place of reckoning,
just how bad things are right now.
And, um, there are bad, um, butyou write early on in the book that
we need each other so badly rightnow, and then later on you observe.
Um, the reality is that shit is very,very fucked up and intense right now.
And we need skills for being witheach other and distress just as

(06:24):
much as we need skills for beingwith each other and delight.
Um, so you propose that loveand connection, you know, aren't
just escapes from systemicoppression, but battlegrounds
where the struggle continues.
And so I wanna ask, what made you want tocenter a conversation about relationships
within the context of capitalism, whitesupremacy, and um, colonial violence?

Dean (06:48):
Yeah, I mean, um, I mean those are the context in which our
relationships are happening, right?
And a lot of people feel so much sufferingrelationships, whether that's like.
There's so much like, uh, distressin sexual romantic relationships,
and those are the ones thatare the most dangerous for us.
Like, we're most likely to be likehurt or killed by somebody that we
like, are dating or used to dateor wants to date us or whatever.

(07:08):
Um, but also some people I know havelike enormous agony over like the
relationships at their job, at their, intheir organizing group, in their artistic
collaboration with their roommates.
Like, and those relationships are shapedby living together in like a society that
throws people away, that makes peopleinto something you socially climb that,

(07:31):
you know, makes people into something youshop for that makes people into something.
You rank the importance of like, allof these and it's, it's like brutal.
It's like brutal to live in that, right?
And all the specific, um, manifestationsof that in anti-blackness and ableism
and anti-fat and all, you know, just azillion ways that that happens to us and
that, that that, that like our intimatelives are, are a battleground of that.

(07:54):
And then those exact same.
Frameworks are the ones that are usedto like, you know, slaughter people
in our communities, to cage people,to, um, make people's lives unlivable.
And like, you know, fundamentallyour resistance isn't made
of like institutions, right?
Like, the institutions in our societyare all the things we have to get rid of.
You know, they're like terrible.

(08:15):
They're, they're like the, you know,the colonial institutions, um, for
people who live in the United States.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and there the institutionsthat make racial capitalism go on.
The thing that ma, that ourresistance, resistance is made up is
like our connections to one another.
Like our, our solidarity, ourwillingness to take a risk together.
Our belief that we're gonna go breaka rule together, that we're gonna,
um, you know, actually have empathyfor one another and notice each other

(08:39):
suffering instead of turning away fromit as we might be told to do by consumer
society that wants to distract us, like.
Like relationships are likeit, you know what I mean?
Like, whether or not we can like sticktogether and like our group of 20 or
200 or 2000 can like make decisionstogether and like look out for folks who
are the most vulnerable and like dealwith it when somebody sexually harasses
somebody else or when somebody mm-hmm.
Is too bossy.
Or when certain people arelike, you know, go missing.

(09:01):
Like, you know, when somebody getsarrested and somebody gets sick.
Like if we can't do that, we can't dowhatever it is that we have to do to,
which is a lot of stuff to deal with.
Like, as you're saying, like the kindof, um, the intensity of the moment
we are at, which is really a momentof, um, you know, fascism, eco side,
um, you know, genocide, like rightbefore our eyes, like just like.

(09:22):
It's stark.
And I, your, your question makes me knowthat you read all the way to the end.
They, they told me I wasn'tallowed to put the stuff about
like, collapse into the intro.
I had to put in the conclusion becauseI, you know, it's, it's a lot for people.
We, we read all

Marcus (09:36):
the way to the acknowledgements on this show, so I

Dean (09:38):
really appreciate that.
Um, yeah, so I, I think it's, forme, I think, I think that there's, I
think, I think things are more direthan maybe even some people think.
I, I, I, as, as part of saying that,I'll, I'll mention to you all that,
um, and to people who are listeningthat I've been in, uh, co-facilitating
a study group about facingcollapse, um, that's still going on.
There's, uh, two more sessions and allthe sessions are on, um, videos are on

(09:59):
my website if people wanna like, seewhat's already happened and then join for
the last two sessions it's sliding scaleto zero and it's through Zeek Chicago.
And it's just a chancecould, it's so hard to face.
Yeah.
The conditions as they are.
And part of it is like we're allin denial, which of course part
of it is like, there's just noway you can comprehend all of it.
Then the level of mm-hmm.
The scope of suffering and the intensityand speed up of, um, ecological crisis and

(10:23):
so many other crises that are happening.
But like the necessity that weactually try to face what's happening
so that we can make decisions aboutour lives and our actions that are
proportionate to what is happening.

Marcus (10:35):
I want to actually just ask you a quick follow up on that.
'cause we, you know, we recently did aepisode on empathy and, you know, that
was the catalyst for the episode wasthat there are so many attacks now on
empathy coming from religious right.
And other sources.
You know, as a matter of fact, they havea phrase now, toxic empathy, which, you
know, I think sounds like an oxymoron,but apparently it's, it's a thing.

Nora (10:58):
And so it's a real thing.

Marcus (11:00):
So I wanna ask your opinion on why do you think there's
this sort of renewed focus on.
I guess sort of brandishing caring andcompassion as something that is evil.

Dean (11:13):
I mean, how else could you justify eco side and get people to
participate in these like relentlessextractive systems when increasingly
everyone can see where this is going?
Like, you know, I, I listened to thesereally amazing episodes on Kelly Hayes
podcast Movement, me memos that were aboutlike long-termism and these theories that

(11:37):
I hadn't been aware of about like that.
People in Silicon Valley and in thetech industry, some of them actually
believe it's ethical to exploit.
Planet Earth as much as they have to, todo this space race, so that like someday
we can all live as digital beings.
Um, and there can be like an endlessnumber of digital beings who like

(11:58):
live on in space through theselike extensive mining processes of
earth and then later other planets.
This is obviously likeridiculous sci-fi stuff.
It's so grandiose.
Like the idea that they canlike, make humans live in space.
Like we are, we live on, in paradise.
We live on a planet thatwe evolve to live on.
We're like the air and the waterand the food, just like, and, and
they're like, no, we'll destroy that.

(12:19):
And all the billions people wholive here if need be to get to
this like bizarre, theoreticalthing, and they think it's ethical.
They call it altruism.
Altruism.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And so to me that relates to like ElonMusk's recent statements against apathy.
Like there's a, like what do you haveto do to participate in the kind of
mining that produces lithium batteries?
What do you have to do to, um.

(12:43):
And also just to even to make ordinarypeople who I know work at companies
like, you know, tech companiesthat are part of like eco side.
Like what do you have to do?
Mm-hmm.
What do we have to do to numb ourselvesand for me to wear this t-shirt that I'm
sure is like partially plastic and willlike live forever and was made by somebody
under her terrible conditions, no doubt.
Like what do we have to do to turn offour connection to like other beings

(13:05):
and the planet so that we can like,live under this much violence and that
they, they hate that we are like woke.
They hate, I love that.
Their anti wokeness.
You know, it's so funny whatslang gets into their mouth.
Yeah.
Right.
They hate that people are interested inbeing awake to one another's experiences
and to their own suffering because thatleads to action, collective action.
Mm-hmm.
For liberation.

(13:25):
And so like, they're against being awakeand they're against feeling empathy.
I mean, it's just, it's like, it's bad.
It's hard to imagine that it iscompelling to people and yet it
is compelling to many people.

Nora (13:35):
Yeah.
Right now.
Yeah.
I mean, as you're talking, um, I thinkyou're reminding me of one of my.
Favorite things about this book, whichis actually that I think it recognizes
that people who are coming into movementspaces or coming into relationships
from movement spaces are often thepeople who are most harmed by systems

(13:59):
of capitalism and white supremacyand colonial violence and racism.
And, and also are people whoare most attuned to the harms
of those systems, right?
Who are feeling things like climate grief.
Um, and also are the people whoprobably have the most trouble
affording therapy under our currentcapitalist systems of healthcare.

(14:20):
And I think one of the thingsthat this book really does is it
distills the wisdom of a lot of.
Really brilliant therapy into the languageof movements, into a language that makes
sense to people in these movements.
I mean, I sort of felt like I couldhave skipped 10 years of therapy and
just read your book because it waslike all the most wise things that my

(14:42):
therapist has told me over over a decade.
Um, but you'll also write in, inthe book that you really rejecting
this notion of individualism at all.
Right?
I mean, that's the kind ofcorner premise of the book.
And you write at one pointthere is no private life.
Um, and I think that really resonatedwith both of us as residents of a city
like Seattle where tech wealth andthis like hyper individualization just

(15:07):
steals so much of our ability to havecollective grief and collective joy.
And so I guess I'm wondering how, howyou imagine us just everyday people
in a place like Seattle beginningto learn how to re collectivize
some of our most intimate species.

Dean (15:25):
I just wanna go back to the first thing you said.
It was just so interesting about,um, yeah, like can, can reading
a book help you skip therapy?
I don't know.
Like, that's one of the questionsI had lot while I was writing this
book was like, what do books do?
Like, like yeah.
I've read a lot of self-helpbooks and books, you know,
meditation books and books aboutdifferent healing methodologies.
I have this question about like.

(15:45):
I feel like I have to do allthe different things I do.
Yes.
Like I have to have a sitting,personally, I had to have a sitting
meditation practice and also likea meditation retreat practice.
And I also have to have likephysical movement practices.
And I also need to like talk tomy friends about all the ideas.
And I also sometimes need to likeread memoirs or novels that tell me
about people's feeling processes.
And I also need to go to12 step programs that I

Nora (16:04):
like.
Yes.
All

Dean (16:05):
of the things, different things.
Um, and it feels like there's no,

Nora (16:08):
yeah.
And sometimes I feel like we haveto hear the, the same answer like
12 different times in order tolike take it in and actually, and

Dean (16:14):
get the same feedback from others.
Like, you need to have a person belike, you know, I, I need you to
listen to me in this way instead.
Or when you make meet a newlover and you leave and you
ditch us, it feels like this.
Or many of us, we need thesame piece of feedback like.
50 times from 50 different kindsof people, and it doesn't mean
it was useless, the people whoshared it with us and we didn't,
weren't able to get take action.
I'm just also curious about like theprocess, like insight versus action.

(16:37):
Mm-hmm.
Like there was a lot of patternsI had insight on for years through
journaling and through therapy andthrough reading certain kinds of books.
And then what was it that allowed meto ever like, do something different.
Like, what was it, what's it, what's10 years of being frustrated and
having insight out my behavior orthis feeling pattern or this delusion.
Anyway, it's just interesting.
This is like an unknowable, but Ilove that you're asking this question

(16:57):
about collectivity and privacy.
I mean, I think one of the things,this book is heavily motivated
and informed by like, you know,basic feminist politics I have.
Mm-hmm.
That there's, you know,the personal is political.
Mm-hmm.
That anything they tell you is inthe private realm, it's probably
to control you and to shut you up.
You know, like, don't talk about sexualviolence or don't talk about, you know,
these health issues or don't, you know,don't talk about your body or whatever.

(17:18):
Um.
And, or, you know, weshouldn't talk about childcare.
That's, that's women's stuff.
Let's, let's keep this, you know,meeting focused on, you know, whatever.
Um, and so that, you know, if, Ithink feminist and queer politics
has really said like, um, whatis, what is private matters?
What's been labeled as private matters?
Um, and this is also true, I think aroundlike an anti-racist feminist politics

(17:40):
that like, you know, domestic laborshould be the unregulated labor or like,
you know, that that often puts women ofcolor into these quote unquote private
spaces for special levels of exploitation.
Mm. And so if we reject the privatepublic split and also know that in
capitalism, white supremacy, it'sbased on like private property, which
we're trying to get rid of and haveeverybody have everything they need
and nobody be able to hoard everything.

(18:01):
There's this question about like, whatis our sociality, like, what is it like
when we are more available to each other?
And this isn't about not havingautonomy or boundaries, and that's hard.
Like some people enter movements andthey're like, I. I wanna give everything
to this movement, which is so right onlike, I'm not gonna hoard wealth anymore.
I'm gonna share everything.
Give it away.
Yes.
And I'm not gonna like, you know,plan for a, a future where I own a

(18:22):
home and I, when people are rightnow, don't have a place to live.
And you know, this is good.
This is like us shaking up things we'vebeen told about our private security,
um, but also I'm allowed to be like.
I can't take this call right now.
I'm not feeling well or I mm-hmm.
Um, I can only support this many peoplewho are currently, like, who I'm currently

(18:42):
trying to get into housing or I can dothese number of meetings but not these,
or I can't do it on these days 'cause Ido this other thing with my kids or with
my parents or whatever my art class, youknow, like we've like how to be like,
collectivity is not about eliminate'cause I think just for those people
who, and I'm one of the people who likewill put yourself at the bottom of the
list and will be like, everybody elseneeds first and I shouldn't have any

(19:05):
pleasure until everybody's pain is over.
And you know, there can be somereally, like, that can be one outcome
of certain socialization processes.
So when I picture, and I, I love thatyou asked the question about Seattle.
'cause I just left Seattle and I'm inBerlin and one thing I notice a lot when
I, when I leave the United States, prettymuch go almost anywhere that I've been.
Is that people are just hanging out more,like everyone is just, especially, it's

(19:27):
nice out, everyone's just outside and youjust, you meet somebody you don't know
them that well, you don't have that muchin common, and they will just like, hang
out with you in the cafe for five hours.
Like, why?
Like, even if they're not trying to havesex with you and you, like, why, like
why do you wanna hang out with so much?
Like, everyone's just like, hasa, like, there's like a, a greater
conviviality and like mm-hmm.
People talk about this a lot betweenneighbors and that a lot of this has
been eroded in the United States.

(19:47):
Um.
By l lengthy commutes by people spendingmuch more on time online by, um, you
know, the ways in which our soar areundermined by the i, the, the feeling
that we should get what we need frominstitutions that like, um, I shouldn't
be concerned about my neighbor who Iknow is like elderly and struggling.
It should be like, thereshould be a social services

(20:07):
agency that does that for her.
Or like this sense that we, that we,we are not each other's business.
And I think it relates to also justnot taking pleasure in each other.
You know, people do less like havinga gardening club and a bowling
league and a like, you know mm-hmm.
Sharing childcare and insteadeverybody's like, like kind of strapped
and people live on their own morethan ever the history of the world.
And so like that also means likeif each of us live alone, we have

(20:30):
to like reproduce meals and havea kitchen that has more kitchen
things and it's like expensive.
Whereas if we live, if the three ofus live together and shared a kitchen.
We'd share a bathroom.
Everyone have less cookingand cleaning and junk care.
Mm-hmm.
You know, it is just like, there'sa kind of like atomization.
I think that, you know, the techindustry is such a good example of that.
Like in Seattle, this move towardsbuilding this kind of housing
that's really about like this.
Single guy, you know what I mean?

(20:51):
Who can pay a really high rent andlike everybody else is priced out.
And so I think like a lot of what thistakes, you know what, the way I see
this manifest in, in our day-to-dayattitudes is a lot of people I know
are actually scared of others, scaredof live meetings, scared of phone
calls, scared of having dinner.
Because others, I have a lot ofstudents who are like, get really
like riled up in class about like,they're like really wanna change

(21:12):
things, but they're like, oh, but Icouldn't possibly like go to a meeting.
Mm-hmm.
Like there's a kind of feeling oflike social anxiety that I think has
been produced by being forced to beisolated and scared of each other.
Scared of saying anything wrong, nothaving a lot of experience of just
like bumping up against other people inspace and figuring out that we, yeah,
you make mistakes, you get over it.

(21:32):
Like a lot of, like, it feels so highstakes if you haven't done it much.
Don't have a lot of practice.
Mm-hmm.
Saying you need something,saying Hey, didn't like what
you said saying, sorry, oops.
I didn't know.
So I think that it's like whatwe need so badly is just like.
More opportunities to invite eachother to things and go and like,

Nora (21:51):
yeah,

Dean (21:51):
that's a kind of, you know, and like, it's, there's a beautiful life that
happens online for many of us, and manypeople get things they don't get anywhere
else, but we have to have in-person lives.
That's who's gonna like, show upwhen you have to go to the hospital
or when you need someone to bringyou soup or when you get arrested.
Like we have to have in person.
That's when the lights go out andthe, you know, the disasters that
are constantly coming are happening.
Mm-hmm.
It's, it's actually in personrelationships that we rely on more.

(22:14):
So we need to do both.
And a lot of us are really, you know,if you have it only online life I
can have a filter on, I can, youknow, I can control it, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And, um, I worry we're beingde-skilled in those ways.

Nora (22:27):
Hmm.

Marcus (22:28):
I'm just wondering too, like, how much of it is, is the fact that
we don't have as many third placesas maybe we've had in the past?
Right.
I mean, you know, I'm thinking again,just even at the infrastructure here
in Seattle is like, where do, wherecan we go to meet to just either
organize or being in some level of,you know, community or communion?
Where can we go that isn't owned by somecorporation or, you know, or some business

(22:53):
or, you know, or, or something else.
Like, I mean, we're, you know, wherecan we truly create, just have a, a
space for creation, if you will, interms of, you know, societal connection

Dean (23:05):
and not be harassed by the cops when you're there.
Right.
Like, I mean, that, just to be honest,just like that's my experience of
living in US cities is like, you know,depending on what you look like and
who you are, it can just be like,not, it's not safe or all the way to
like, super unpleasant, stressful,dangerous, you know, like, I don't know.
I think there's just a, a lot of.
I think that's a really big question.

(23:26):
I, in, in Seattle, I'm a big fan of the,uh, pipsqueak, which is like an anarchist
space and also like left bank books,like these kind of long-term spaces that
are volunteer, run, that put on events.
Um, and I think we need a lot more ofthat and also to figure out how to, I, I
also see when I study places like Athens,Greece, or other places where people have
taken the space and pushed the police outand had kind of street battles that have

(23:50):
created, there's a story that was up myfriend just reminded me of, um, that I
saw myself when I was in Athens of like.
There's a, there's a long historyof, um, you know, this uprising in
2009 there, where there was the, thepolice were really on the back foot.
People really like, you know, uh, in thestreets being really, uh, militant in, uh,
against like austerity measures and stuff.

(24:10):
And as a result of that, there wasa lot of experimentation, a lot of
people doing like outside assembliesand that kind of stuff that we see
in movements all over the world.
And that also we saw during Occupyin the US and we'd seen at different
moments, we saw in 2020 in Seattle withthe, um, the kind of police free zone.
But in Athens you sawlike a next level of this.
Like there was this moment inExarchia, which is this like police
free for like 40 years neighborhood.

(24:31):
There was a moment when like, therewas like a, um, a hotel that was
scheduled to be built somewhere.
And like the people like went in thereand in one day, like dug it was like
kind of parking crash, dug it allup, pushed it all out, made it into a
garden, and have guarded it ever since.
Like, guarded this from police intrusion,you know, like I wanna, I like to
circuit those stories which are lesscommon in the US where we have less.
Militant movements in a lot of wayswe have less winds around squatting

(24:55):
or around like actually taking space.
And just remind us of, are there anymoments where we've seen that and
the value of practicing that, evereven practicing it temporarily in
spaces like the no dapple, you know,um, no Dakota Access Pipeline, uh,
camp or the Occupy Encampments orthe police free zones in New York or
other places that happened in 2020.
Like just really noticing howmeaningful it is to take some space

(25:19):
because of exactly what you'resaying about how all the space is
like corporate, commercial, policed.
And that has such an effect onfeeling relaxed and being together.
And also, I mean, one thing Inoticed too, when I go to the other.
Places is that like people will just stayin the same cafe for like five, six hours,
whereas in Seattle it's like the rents arehigh, all the restaurants can barely exist

(25:40):
because of the, you know, the prices.
Everything's so high.
And so it's like, get out.
You know, it just really, it's like, yeah.
The, the capitalism is just impactingpeople's ability to connect at all.

Nora (25:52):
Mm-hmm.

Marcus (25:53):
Right.
It's almost as if we're treated, we'reconditioned to be treated as commodities.
Right.
And then mm-hmm.
We then therefore treateverybody else like a commodity.

Nora (26:02):
Well, so I think this touches on another theme of the book that
really focuses on the idea of practice.
Um, so.
You highlight sort of threephrases or ideas that really
capture the importance of practice.
And I wanna highlightthose for our readers.
Um, the first is we are what we practiceand we are always practicing something.

(26:23):
The second is how you do anythingis how you do everything.
And the third is what youpay attention to grows.
And I'm hoping you can elaboratea little bit on those ideas
and sort of how you've learned.
The idea of practice and learned how tokind of evolve your own practice, um,
and have how you've been kind of helpingother people to realize how they can
evolve their practices, um, as a sortof central pillar of liberatory work.

Dean (26:47):
Yeah.
Thank you for sharing that, that Ilove that part and that idea is really
pivotal for my own personal healing work.
And, um, I think it's useful foreverything we do collectively.
Um, and those ideas for me, like II just heard that said by, you know,
uh, Adrian Marie Brown says, whatyou pay attention to grow mm-hmm.
In Emerge strategy, but like,that's a good, you know, really
central idea in Buddhism.

(27:08):
It's like, yep.
I heard it a lot frommy somatics teachers.
There's, you know, it's just, I,I think you just hear that idea
in so many different traditions.
Um, and for me there'sa few things about that.
Like, the idea is like, you'realways practicing something like,
what am I unconsciously doing?
You know, do I, am I unconsciouslyhaving thoughts about how
everyone's out to get me?

(27:28):
Am I unconsciously, um.
Always criticizing my body andappearance, or always criticizing
other people's bodies and appearances.
Mm-hmm.
Am I unconsciously, um, always cravingbeing rich or like whatever, you know,
are the thoughts and practices goingthrough me things I chose, or are they
things I inherited from a toxic societyor from something I had to do to get
by at some point, you know, a lot ofpeople like push everyone away because

(27:52):
that was something they needed to doto get by at some point, but now they
feel lonely or a lot of people like,you know, um, are doormat and just
accept, you know, accept connection withanybody, get everybody what they want.
But now, because that was theway to get by at some point, but
now it's not working for them.
And they're like, I hate this.
You know, so how am I practice?
What am I practicing and what does it haveto do with what I want things to be like?
And these are the same kindof questions we ask ourselves.

(28:13):
Like, what am I practicingregarding white supremacy?
What am I practicing regarding patriarchy?
Yeah.
Like what thoughts aregoing through my head?
Who wrote those?
Do I wanna believe that?
How am I treating other people accordingto a script that I. Um, I don't, I
wanna reject now, you know, and it's,you don't, it doesn't just happen.
You have to be like, oh,there it is in my head again.
There it is.
My behavior again.
You know, that's a lifelong process andthat's true with all of this stuff and

(28:35):
this idea how I do everything, how I doanything is how I do everything for me.
Like that really came, comes up aroundlike rushing myself or like doing
everything too fast, doing everything,um, with self-criticism, doing everything
with, with fear and shame behindit, you know, just whatever it is.
Mm-hmm.
Like, just like what are some dominantsensations that I'm practicing?

(28:56):
Mm-hmm.
Do I have any choice whereI think I don't have choice?
Um, and I think for a lotof us, this is not easy.
It's not like, you know, I think people,I think the problem, one of the problems
with self-help is it's often like, just dothis and in 20 minutes you'll feel better.
In 30 days you'll feel better.
And it's like, actually no.
It's like a lifelong journey.

(29:17):
I. Most of us are gonnakeep having a noticing.
A lot of the same practices come up,especially when we're under stress.
So like, I'm, you know, do, do,do a decade of work on shame, and
then I'm under a lot of stress.
I'm feeling a lot of shame again.
Um, and just being like, oh, that's okay.
But it's totally different to notice it.
Like mm-hmm.

(29:38):
If, if I notice it's happening, if I'mhaving a strong feeling, I'm like, oh,
I'm, I notice this is the same thingI had as a kid, or this is a feeling
I have often when, you know, that isso different than not noticing it and
then I'm just acting out, then I'mjust pressing send on this weird email
to you, or I'm yelling at you, or I'mretreating from our relationship when
I actually really want the connectionor whatever my autopilot stuff is.

(29:59):
Like, if I, if I practice noticingwhat I'm practicing, then I might
have moments where I can pivot orwhere I can apologize to you or where
I can return or where I can, um.
Like, oh, whenever, whenever Marcusand I are are disagreeing, I have
this story in my head, I'm gonnaremember, oh, that story isn't,

(30:23):
I always leave, remember later.
It's not true.
It's actually a story I have that'sa fear from childhood or whatever.
I'm gonna try to, I justheard the story come through.
I'm gonna try to notice it this time andsay, mm-hmm that's probably not true.
You know, like those kind of moves,you know, that's like mastery is just,
we're never gonna get rid of this stuff.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
The mastery.
I think my highest goal for myself is justlike, could I notice what I'm practicing

(30:45):
and make some choices sometimes, andhow much liberation there is in that.
That's it.
Yes, that's everything.
Being aware, there's so much ofthis book is just like, could I be
more aware of what's happening tome instead of just running a script?
And one of a couple of those thingsthat are important for our movements
in this kind of crisis time thatwe're talking about is like.
What do I do when other people arestressed out and raging mm-hmm.

(31:07):
Or crying or whatever in front of me.
Can I, can I make any choicesabout how I respond to crisis?
What happens when I think I'vebeen, this is a huge one for us.
Mm-hmm.
I just, I just invented likea new workshop about this.
Like, what about whenI think I'm the victim?
Because most of us do the most harmwhen we are like, other people have
done something to me, that's whenwe, that's when we destroy the group.

(31:27):
That's when we stalk somebody.
That's when we in, go into someone'sphone, whatever, like the weird dating
set, but also the weird actual stuff.
That's, that's when we violate hisprivacy, that's when we act out is when
we think something bad has happened to us.
And it doesn't mean something badhasn't happened, but what we wanna do
is be like, oh, that's the moment topay attention to whether I'm about to

(31:48):
do something that is outside my values.
And, and if you know that I'm in that zoneand you're my friend, instead of being
like, yeah, that's right, Dean, fuck them.
They're all bad.
You could be like, Dean, you.
And I really, I'm really hearing youand I'm really empathizing with what
happened for you, Dean, et cetera.
And if I'm about to go plansomething messed up, you're supposed
to actually help me not do that.
'cause that's not real.

(32:09):
That's not who I reallywanna be, you know?
Yeah.
So part of it is like, can wepay attention to the practices
that we do under stress?
'cause also a, it's gonna allbe more stressful than ever.
Right now when I talk to all my friendson the phone, everyone's supporting
like 10 people in crisis right now.
People, there's so muchbad stuff happening.
People are getting hurtby the cops right now.
People are, um, you know, theirloved ones are being deported.

(32:30):
They're afraid for their safety.
There's so much to be activated about.
So if we're all supporting people incrisis, it's time to notice what are
my practices and, and how might I wannabring them, sharpen them more towards
what, how I wanna be here for othersand how I wanna be when I'm in crisis.
Like, that's, that's the level we'regonna be living under that, you know,
one way or another for, for the ongoingperiod for the rest of our lives.

(32:53):
There's gonna just be crisis and disaster.
Mm-hmm.
So what is it like to try to.
Practice for that.

Nora (32:59):
Yeah.
I feel like that is the mostimportant reminder right now.
And it also sounds like you'reencouraging people to do the practice of
noticing in a non-self judgmental way.
I, I think that's the other reallyimportant piece of this, which is
oftentimes when we're noticing withourselves or noticing with other
people, it can spiral into judgment.

Dean (33:20):
Um, yeah.
I mean, the whole bookis about that for me.
That I, like, I'm so judgmental of myself.
You know, it's, they talk about it, youknow, but it as the second error, like
the first error is the pain you're in.
And the second is likeyour judgment of the pain.
I shouldn't be in this pain, I'm inthis pain 'cause I did something wrong.
You know, it's like, can I justbe like, oh, I'm angry, or, or I'm
jealous, or I'm scared, or I'm ashamed.

(33:42):
And then just be like,

Nora (33:43):
oh

Dean (33:43):
yeah.
And it doesn't have to belike, that's wonderful to me.
I'm not gonna get there in this lifetime.
Let's be real.
But I, it can just be like,yeah, that's how it is right now.
Yep.
Yep.

Marcus (33:54):
Uh, well, Dina, I'm a, a stepdad and, and, you know, so
recently I've become, uh, much morecognizant of, I should say, aware
of some of the things that are goingon in the quote unquote manosphere.
And this, um, it seemingly ongoingconversation about, you know,
these, the issues and the crisiswith, uh, you know, with men.

(34:15):
'cause it seems like they're theonly white men, specifically.
It seems like they're the onlyone who are having crisis.
And I don't obviously wanna trivialize,you know, some of the data coming around
the, the uptick in suicides and so forth.
But, um, what I have found issort of what's missing in this
conversation is any type of true sortof understanding as to why they're

(34:36):
suffering that doesn't involve.
Quite frankly, uh, marginalizedcommunities needing to kowtow
and, and bow, uh, again to them.
And I, I said that to say, I, I remembertalking, um, to a young man who I mentor
and, um, he had gone down sort of, Idon't wanna say gone down the rabbit
hole, but he was certainly, he wasreading things like, uh, Jordan Peterson.

(34:59):
Um, he was sort of, uh, curious aboutfolks like Andrew Tate and Andrew, uh,
Huberman, um, who folks don't know.
There are very, you know, prominentfigures, um, in the, you know, quote
unquote, you know, blogs, sphere, um, interms of folks who, uh, sort of gra gra,
you know, gravitate towards this narrativethat, um, you know, manner in crisis.

(35:22):
And we need to, you know, uh, uh,I'm being revolutionary here, but
essentially get, get rid of wokenessand get rid of feminism and so forth.
And, you know, he came across yourwork and he said, my God, like.
You know what I, somebody finally told me,you know, something that I needed to hear.
And it's basically that, thatlife is just fucking hard.

(35:43):
And, and we need to actually just embracethe fact that it is hard and actually, you
know, encounter life in that way and have,and just be real to that, that there is
no sort of magic wand or, or quick fix.
And to your point that you broughtup earlier, it's like, you know,
life is going to be, um, you know,I'm paraphrasing here, but life is

(36:05):
going to be the struggle that wedeal with as long as we are alive.
And so I want to ask you, just becauseof, you know, I'm as a journalist and
a podcaster, you know, just seeingso much sort of conjecture around
what is really ing, um, man herein the United States and so forth.
Can you just talk a little bitabout sort of the pervasiveness of.

(36:30):
Uh, you know, this sort of ideologythat is creeping, creeping up and, and
honestly being adopted, um, you know,by elected folks even on the left with
some, you know, with certain Democrats.
And what we really need the messagethat we, you know, folks really
need to be hearing right now,just in terms of the honest truth.

Dean (36:49):
That's so interesting.
Um, when you talk about this, I mean, onething it makes me think about is like all
the research about how like boys and menare touched less and like, um, just how,
how do you create people who are reallyisolated from others who are told not

(37:14):
to be empathetic or feel things that areconsidered soft, um, from early ages, you
know, how like pre-verbal boys get thesemessages about touch and about connection.
How do you create people whoyou're who, who are really
told the connection isn't safe?
And then what are those people goingon to do, you know, um, who, you
know, what are the ways that they,um, get, get their needs met in

(37:37):
a, in that dysfunctional setting?
I think about that a lot.
And I think about, I also, when youwere talking, I thought about how
sometimes there's this feeling like,or you get narratives like this
amongst queers and trans people.
Sometimes like straight people or cispeople are like, like, it seems so

(38:00):
hard to be them because they're stuckin scripts or something like that.
Like, it's like, it's hard to be usbecause like we are experiencing all these
forms of violence and discrimination allthe time, and that can ends our lives
early and that's all really terrible.
But sometimes it's just like, atleast we don't believe that stuff.
You know what I mean?
Like about ourselves and each other.
Like I, um, and that's, youknow, it's, it's flip and, um,

(38:20):
and maybe not like totally kindand you know, it's reductionist,
but I think there's something.
Real about the suffering of thesuffering that comes from like when
you are pushed out of your family andyour religion and your community and
have to go find it with other weirdos.

(38:41):
That's horrible.
And a lot of people don'tlive to tell the tale.
And a lot of people have alot of like chronic, horrible,
lifelong experiences from that.
And freedom from thosescripts is also a gift.
You know what I mean?
So the question is, how can weget more people that freedom?
You know, like how can more people stopseeing themselves through the lens?

(39:01):
And in some ways I think that's happening.
Like there's so many people whoare coming out as non-binary and
trans, especially young people,like outrageous numbers of people.
Like there's a reason that those,that our opponents are scared of us.
'cause it's like our ideasare popular, you know?
Like their children arebecoming us, you know?
And.
Um, and that is so beautiful to me.
I mean, when you're in Seattle,I know you both see it.

(39:21):
Like there are so manytrans women in Seattle.
I think it's the most trans womenplace I've ever been on Earth.
And I really look for these things.
Um, and it's so beautiful to thinkabout what are the conditions that
are allowing people to play with theirlives and identities and ask themselves
questions about who they are and, youknow, um, be with their bodies and

(39:42):
their identities in like ways thatbreak rules that have been applied to
them from this gender socialization,this, these messages they've received
about who they're supposed to be.
Um, and so I, and Iwant that for everybody.
Not, and not everybody to havecertain identities, but everybody
would get to mess around and belike, I'm, I'm gonna try this.
I'm gonna wear this.
I'm gonna have this kind ofsex and see if I like it.
I'm gonna, you know, like I wanteveryone to, I'm gonna have this kind

(40:03):
of friendship and see if I like, likeI think a lot of people are really
impoverished in the realm of friendship.
Like just.
People talk about how queershave a more developed friendship
culture because we are pushed outof families and other institutions.
And so a lot of us rely on peoplewe're not related to by blood.
Um, and we have a long history oflike really taking care of each other,
like, like the way some people think.

(40:24):
Families should take care of each other.
And we, and our friendships areoften more developed 'cause we're
also not like obligated to give allour time to like families and stuff
like that because they don't want us.
And that is amazing.
Friendship as I talk about in thebook, I think is the most liberated
relational space in our culture.
The place where you're most likely tolike, give someone honest feedback, really
want what's best for the other person.
Like, um, like not try to control them.

(40:45):
Not that we don't do those thingssometimes in friendships, but like
compared to lovers and family members,we treat friendship in these more
liberated ways frequently because thesociety doesn't have as big a story
about what it has to be like and whatyou have to get from this person.
And so, yeah.
I'm curious about, um.
About what's possible.
You know, I, I think a lot of people Iknow have done like really interesting

(41:07):
youth work, like people I know who've donelike healthy relationship classes in high
schools or like classes about getting,you know, avoiding dating violence or, or
I have, you know, close to somebody who'slike a radical sex ed teacher for 20 years
in the Portland public school system.
Or like who've tried to bringideas to young people that let
them out of some of these scripts.

(41:27):
And I want this book to have some of that.
I tried to write it in a way that bereadable for a lot of different kinds
of readers, especially about the romancemyth because I think a lot of, I. Teens
and even tweens, like that's one of thefirst areas where people start to play
out, like gross gender role stuff on eachother through dating and sex and, and even

(41:47):
experimentation with the idea of a crushor whatever and feeling horrible about
each other and feeling some people aredisposable and undesirable and, and where
friendships starts to get sidelined andpeople start to ditch their friends for
their dates or for people they wanna dateand start to like betray each other a lot.
And like, I think a lot happens there.
And instead those ages can beplaces of like major, like being

(42:08):
like, who cares about what fam,family and school have said, I'm
gonna choose what my friends say.
Like, it can be a time of like majorlychoosing your friends and getting reshaped
by your friends and then maybe evenhaving fun dating and sex experiences that
where you get support from your friends.
Um, so that's I thinka question that I am.
I'm wondering about for when we thinkabout what's happening to people who

(42:30):
are living under the like marker of men.
It's just like stuck scripts, likeunfair scripts that are, I think
there's true suffering there.
I have compassion for, andthose are some of the most
dangerous people in our society.
Like, I like when I see like a groupof like white men out on the street,
I'm like, I've got, you know, like,it's like drunk quote, men are the
scariest people on earth to me, youknow, and next white police officers,
you know, all police officers, youknow that, those kinds of people.

(42:51):
Right.
And so what, what, whatis their suffering?
What are they, that's areason, that's kind of empathy.
I think we should also have not toreshape the society to avoid them being
challenged to getting feedback, butinstead to reshape the society, to move
them towards gentleness and connectionwith others so that they can have more
satisfaction and engage in less violence.

Marcus (43:07):
Yeah, I mean, and to your point earlier, right?
I mean, uh, as you said, like folkswho believe that themselves are
the, the victims are the ones whomany times cause the most harm.
And that's, I. Extremelydangerous when you are the sort of
dominant class within a society.
So I want to bring up something that youtalked about earlier, just how punitive
our society is because, uh, the latterpart of your book deals with repair and

(43:30):
you write about there essentially thatthere is no real template for repair in
our society, or at least the practiceof it in any, with any type of normalcy.
And so I wanna ask you how, howcan sort of practicing repair in
our interpersonal relationships,uh, potentially, you know, lead to
repair in our society, particularlyat, at a time period when it is?

(43:53):
So, I don't know, hyperpolarized.

Dean (43:55):
Yeah, that's such a good question.
I mean, I think one thing too is likewhen people think about forgiveness
or repair, they often think about likethe worst thing that ever happened.
And it's really hard to start there.
Or like, also like in our groupsor in our relationships and stuff,
it's like we try to push downwhat's happening until it's so bad.
That's actually really hard.

(44:16):
So then I blow up at you and I'mlike, you've done this for two years
and I've been pissed the whole time.
Or you never did the dishes, or younever initiated sex, or you always,
you know, like, whatever my thing is.
Or I just disappear from the relationship.
'cause you keep doing something that'snot working for me and I can't say it.
And so I just ghost A lot of peopleleave groups, you know, leave
groups this way, or leave datingrelationships or friendships.

(44:36):
We're like so afraid to do the initialfeedback and like, so repair is
impossible without like the feedback.
And it's much harder to repair somethingthat's like really broken because
then I blew up at you and actuallysaid really unfair things about you
and now you're, you're injured by me.
Like, we're just at that point, likethere's a lot of, like, they'll,
it'll often get pretty deep.

(44:58):
Um, woundings.
Whereas if I just the first fewtimes a day been like, Ugh, when you
say that it so hurts my feelings.
Or, um, sometimes you don'tcall me back, I feel, or, you
know, the, all the little stuff.
And so one thing I really recommendto people, like for just even
starting this process of learningthat kind of accountability or
repair is just, it starts withlike giving and receiving feedback.
And then can I, most of us havevery little practice giving feedback

(45:20):
like I just described, and we havevery little practice receiving it.
So like if you say to me like, oh,hey Dean, when you come late to
the meetings, sometimes it makesyou like, you don't value my time.
Or when you didn't call me backor when you missed my birthday,
or whatever, when you, you know,invite other people, but not me.
Whatever.
When I, when, when, when you saywhen, if I haven't heard that
much, I might be really defensive.
Like that's part of why we're alsoafraid of giving feedback is 'cause

(45:41):
people are actually incredibly defensive.
We're like, oh my God, they wannathrow me away forever because we live
in this society that's super punitive.
So I can't imagine justgetting some feedback.
So we have to do this thing wherewe're like, okay, my friend is given
me feedback, I'm gonna say thank you.
Even though right now I'mfeeling scared, you know?
And so a lot of times I talk to peopleabout doing a thing where like if

(46:02):
someone gives you feedback, firstof all, remember they're giving me
this feedback 'cause I'm important.
Nobody gives feedback unless likethey're telling me this 'cause they
think I'm an important person in thisgroup, or I'm important to them or I'm
influential in our thinking or whatever.
Like I feel like I'm beingkicked, but actually this person
is saying they're important.
Even if they're saying itmean, this is really big.
'cause a lot of times when we'rein community, we don't know.

(46:23):
Someone sees us as a leader andwe feel like just, you know, a
little puppy dog or whatever.
Like we don't feel very important, butactually someone else thinks you're
a leader 'cause you got here first.
Or 'cause you said something in themeeting that thought they thought
was cool or 'cause people regardyou in some way you don't know.
And then they come at you likeyou're a leader and you're
ruining their life or whatever.
And you gotta be like, okay,this person thinks I'm important,

(46:44):
that's why they're so mad.
Why else would they give a fuckabout whether I did or didn't
do that thing or say that thing.
So, and they might be coming withlike a cumulative injury around
being left out or whatever, right?
So how can I. Be someone who's like,when feedback comes, I at least
in the moment, orient towards likelistening and not being defensive.

(47:04):
That is, 'cause the thing is, if I, ifyou withhold the feedback from me because
you think it'll like keep our relationshipgoing, actually it's destroying our
relationship and moving us apart.
'cause you're not telling mewhat's really going on for you.
But if you say to me, Dean, ithurts my feelings when you whatever.
And then I say, thankyou for telling me that.
And maybe I even try tochange my behavior now.
You trust me like younever trusted anyone.

(47:26):
'cause this is so rare in our societynow we're like besties forever because
I just showed I was trustworthyin a way that's incredibly rare.
So either of us pra, practicing, giving,receiving feedback and, and all the
groups I work with, I'm like, we'regonna have a training about this, even
if it's 20 minutes and have a litany thatyou say at the beginning end of every
meeting, that this is a space where webelieve in making mistakes together and

(47:47):
asking for apologies and doing repairand like reminding each other that.
'cause then I can go up toyou and be like, oh hey.
Remember that thing about howwe said we should get feedback.
You know, like it gives us a, it givesme an entryway that we're gonna try this.
Um, and from the thing I talk about inthe book is that almost none of us have
had major experiences in our lives of,uh, being hurt, telling someone that they

(48:10):
hurt us, asking them to apologize, havingthem been given a meaningful apology and
change their behavior like that is sorare because of all things I just said.
And especially with people likelovers, parents, bosses, like, um,
it really is unlikely to happened.
So, you know, and I talk about how Ihad an experience of, of being with
a lover for seven years during whathe was alcoholic and having him get

(48:33):
sober and then having us do repairaround it, and how it changed my
life to have one solid experienceof actual repair and forgiveness.
I want everyone to have this, andthe only way we get there is with
all the little things, you know?
Um.
It's just like, it's, it's not,doesn't mean it's not worthwhile.
I, I engage in processes all the timewith people who are trying to get,

(48:54):
deal with big conflicts and repairthem, but they're a lot harder to get
satisfying repair on than if you'vesewed the ground with, um, skilling
that up and, and building that trust.
And, and I think it's,you know, this is a thing.
It's like I work with all these groups andwhat I see a lot is just like groups that
are doing really important work to, youknow, stop wars and, you know, poisoning

(49:19):
the earth and all these things, um, arelike, we don't have time to do this stuff
about our process and our relationships.
And then they usually reach out tome when they already are having the
major conflict that is going to comewithin one to 12 months of doing
anything you care about with others.
And if you do this stuff on thefront end and you build some skills

(49:40):
and make some agreements with howwe're gonna try to do it, you often
avoid some of those big intractablegroup destroying project destroying.
People destroying conflicts.
And so that's, that's what I'm hopingin this, is that people will practice
this stuff like in their friendshipswith their lovers, their roommates,
and get, get some of those musclesthat when you come up to me and they're
like, Hey, Dean, when you're late, Iwill, it won't be, I'm like, oh, okay.

(50:04):
Like, yeah.
Sorry, I, I was late.
I'm gonna try to be less late for you.
Thank you.
You know, like, like, because I'm,I got some muscle around knowing it
doesn't mean you're throwing me away.

Nora (50:13):
And in fact, that's how we build these stronger relationships, right?
Yeah.

Dean (50:17):
Yeah.

Nora (50:18):
I think one of the coolest, and at least for me, most innovative
ideas in the book is this thing thatyou call revolutionary promiscuity,
wherein we intentionally create whatyou call promiscuous support systems.
That sort of run counter to this, uh,sort of idea of exclusivity and scarcity

(50:41):
within how we support each other's needs.
Can you help us understand some models ofwhat revolutionary promiscuity looks like
or what you hope people will be kind ofinvesting in as they kind of unlearn this
scarcity and exclusivity and punishmentculture around their relationships?

Dean (50:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, one way I think about this, right?
So it's like I just, you know, Mothe research says that most people
live have very few intimate contacts.
Very few people with whom they would shareare like really good news or bad news.
Um, a lot of people have,it's just their lover.
If they have like a spouse or lover,and a lot of people don't have anybody.

(51:19):
In our society.
And most people don'thave that many people.
They have like two friends orsomething like that who are really,
who you really say if somethingwas super hard, um, or super good.
Um, and we all just need like really deepbenches of support, especially now when
like bad things are happening to everyoneand are going to be happening to everyone.
And everyone's also seeing the headlines.

(51:40):
It's like the stress of it all,the stress of every part of it
that's touching your life, touchingone, one degree away, two degrees
away, um, and, and watch witnessingeverything or witnessing globally.
Um, and so the idea of revolutionaryPROMIS security, for me it is, you know,
it, I, I was thinking about, one thingI thought about is like, something that
he will talk about a lot in terms ofthe eighties and AIDS crisis in the

(52:01):
US is like how people suddenly haveto take care of all their friends.
And like, it's like you could be, youcould end up supporting someone in the
hospital who, like, you don't reallyknow personally, but like I. You know,
you've been to parties with them,like just a kind of level of support.
And I was thinking about this one time.
I, um, my ex-boyfriend sent me likea, like a GoFundMe for someone.

(52:22):
Maybe I saw it on Instagram orsomething for someone who, like, I
knew my ex-boyfriend had once fucked.
And I was like, I felt anintimacy with this person.
You know, I've never met this person.
Yeah.
But I wanna like, you know,donate to their whatever.
You know, just like, how,how can we have more of that?
Like, more of just like claiming eachother, feeling caring for each other and
knowing each other enough to ask for help.

(52:43):
You know, like, um, like I have a friendwho's been in the hospital lately and
just like wa like being on the signalthread and watching all of these different
people like take these shifts to go visitand like, just like how many people it
takes to do this well and how bad it is.
You know, I'm sure many, I'm sureyou've known people, I've known a
lot of people who have, are caringfor an elder and it's just them.
There's just one person doingall of the care work and it

(53:04):
like, it'll just burn you out.
And it's so hard.
Like we just all need these deep benches.
And in the book I talk about trying totreat our lovers more like our friends
and our friends, more like our lovers.
And part of that is like exclusivityis a thing that I think is
really dominant with lovers.
And so can we have less exclusivity?
Like, can I be moreemotionally promiscuous?
So like I, like, instead of beinglike my lover will meet a hundred

(53:26):
percent of my needs, um, if, if I'mmonogamous or whatever, instead of being
like, oh, like this is true for me.
This, this kind of wayof relating with people.
Like, this is my friend who I, who Ireally wanna talk to about everything
that's really annoying my job.
And this is my friend whoI really wanna talk to.
My favorite idea is in anarchism,and this is my friend who, like, when
someone dies in my family, I wanthim to go with me to the funeral.
And this is my friend who I talk toabout, you know, having alcoholic parent.

(53:48):
And this is my, you.
Multiple people in all those categories.
And just having people, lettingeveryone be what they are best to
you and you, and how you connect withthem, instead of being like, you have
to be everything to me and I'm disa.
And then people are super disappointedand resentful in their relationships
because they want one person tobe everything, or two people to
be everything or whatever it is.
Um, and focusing so much,especially on lovers.

(54:10):
And so if we're gonna treat ourlovers more like friends, we might
be like less controlling of them.
We might be more interested in them havingthe diverse support system that they need.
We might be like, instead of being like, Ican't believe you're thinking about gonna
grad school, you're gonna ruin our lives.
Instead be like, I'm wannato do what's good for you.
What are you thinking about?
You know, like one you're having,you're have a new interest and you're

(54:30):
hanging out with a bunch of new people.
Great.
Like the, you know, the wayswe might be more with friends.
And then also treating our friendsmore like we treat our lovers like
that specialness that like, you know,let's celebrate our friend anniversary.
Let's have a special sleepover,let's have more physical touch on our
friendship and that kind of support.
So that's not only onlywith lovers like, let's, um.
Actually, you know, let's go on atrip together, like let's like back

(54:53):
each other up and have devotion theway that people often do with lovers.
And I think that is part of it.
And I think just, I think there's alsojust in here a warning about exclusivity.
Like using exclusivity as specialnessis a trap with a friend or a lover.
So if I'm just like, we always go on thiscamping trip and now I'm mad 'cause you
my best friend are going on a camping tripwith someone else that's not good for us.

(55:13):
You know?
Or I'm mad 'cause you, my lover aregonna go to the movies with someone
else or go on vacation with someone elseor, and personally I think it's useful
to, like, I find it useful to explorehaving open relationships sexually.
I think sexual promiscuity is also reallybeneficial to people, but also everyone
should just do what they wanna do.
Like, I don't, like, I don't havelike a belief that like the one
type of relationship is superior.

(55:33):
I think you can treat peopleterribly in any type of
relationship and we've seen it all.
Yeah.
Um, but for me it has beenliberating to, to ask myself why
I was raised to think that otherpeople's sexuality is a threat to me.
And I've decided to tryto have relationships in
which I try to unlearn that.
So I'm not seeking to use jealousyas a guiding a thing that guides

(55:54):
my action and agreements, eventhough I have a lot of jealousy.
That's really hard, you know?
Um, and also like, literallyeveryone should just do whatever
they want to, to do and try stuff.
But I do think, like moving to askourselves the question about where we've
been told exclusivity will keep us safe.
'cause I don't think it does.

Marcus (56:12):
Well, we wanna wrap up today with a, a practice that's, uh,
common to us on this show, and it'scalled, um, eight Ounces of Joy.
And so at the end of every episode,um, Nora and I usually share, you
know, what is filling our own cups,you know, in this, uh, time period.
And so I wanna ask you, what's, whereare you finding eight ounces of joy?

(56:32):
Um, uh, regularly these days.

Dean (56:37):
I mean, the militancy of the protests against ice kidnapping people
in our communities is so beautiful.
The numbers of people who are takingrisks and taking bold action together
and fighting back and throwing teargas canisters back at them and,
you know, getting in the way andrefusing to let them take our people.
And the story about the people in NewJersey who were able to escape from the

(57:01):
ice facility, um, in part because ofthe ways that protestors were engaging
there and, um, as I understand it, um,but the idea that we could be a movement
that how people get out of cages and,and, and also reflecting on the history
of the ways that our movements have attimes been able to do that feels really
meaningful right now and is an importantcounterbalance to how heavy the, um,

(57:25):
escalation of, um, criminalizationimmigration enforcement is.
Under this administration.
So I'm just feeling so muchgratitude and the beauty, the
beauty of people's courage.
Mm-hmm.
The beauty of fighting, even when youdunno if you're gonna win or when the
beauty of caring about each person'slife, who's being abducted and wanting to
stop that is just, um, really helping me.

Nora (57:47):
Yeah.
I think us too.
Yeah.

Marcus (57:51):
Yeah.
Well, Dean, this has been sucha rare privilege and a joy to be
in conversation with you today.
Uh, just thank you so much for allof your hard-earned wisdom and um,
just thank you for living and lovingin the meanwhile with us today.
I

Dean (58:05):
wish we could hang out in Seattle and go to the lake like
right now, but maybe someday.
I know soon.
Yeah.

Marcus (58:10):
Well, well please get back safe from, from Berlin.
So

Dean (58:13):
thank you.
So nice to talk to you all.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Was pleasure so much, Dean.

Marcus (58:30):
Wow.
I, you know, I, I wanted to say at theend to Dean, like, same time next week.
I mean, my God, this is, uh,you know, the, the therapy
session that I absolutely needed.
So,

Nora (58:41):
yes.
Yeah.
Um, so much wisdom insuch a small episode.
Um, I really, truly wish we couldkeep having him on every week, um,
but lots to carry forward in practice.
Um, so really gratefulfor him coming on with us.

Marcus (58:57):
Absolutely.
And I think just the practicality,you know, of the advice as well.
I think there's so often, uh.
Particularly in movement spacesthat people believe that the
advice is just inaccessible to theeveryday person, quote unquote, like

Nora (59:11):
mm-hmm.

Marcus (59:11):
No, I mean this is, this is great.
Like, I mean this is the, I, I wouldsay this is the only self-help book
you need, quote, but you know, atthe end of the day it's, you know, I
don't want to trivialize dean's work.
It is much more than than self-help.
It's truly collective help.

Nora (59:27):
Yes.
And while we talked a lot about thebig ideas in this book today, I just
wanna also point out to people thatthe book is full of these beautiful
little templates and scripts and thingsthat you can think about yourself.
And there's all these like littlenuggets that you can pick up and
integrate into your daily practices,um, and that I'm really excited
to continue using in my own life.
Absolutely.

(59:47):
I'm also really glad that, um, Deanmentioned, um, his eight ounces of joy,
um, as something that I think you andI have been talking about a lot with
listeners over the last couple weeks, andhopefully we'll be continuing to focus
on, which is just these really powerfulspaces of emerging resistance to ice.
Yeah.

Marcus (01:00:05):
And I'll say that, uh, that is an excellent segue into the eight ounces
of joy that, that both of us have.
And I will, uh, I'll gofirst, I'll say, okay.
You know, so often people talk about.
Celebration has resistance.
And I think, you know, many timesthat's comes across as trite.
But this, you know, this month of Junebeing both pride month and then also, you

(01:00:28):
know, the celebration of Juneteenth, youknow, those are quite frankly, just both
the events that have been under attack,um, particularly by this administration.
As a matter of fact, you know, whenwe were recording on Juneteenth
at, at a time period where, um,the president is doing all they can
to not even recognize that date.
And the fact that, you know, living in acity like Seattle where they are just in

(01:00:51):
abundance of Juneteenth uh, events today.
And just seeing folks who are comingout and truly just celebrating in, in
a way of saying, no, you know, you cantry to erase this from history books.
You can try to erase thisfrom collective consciousness.
But we are still here, we arestill enjoying ourselves and we're
still, you know, gathering incollective and beloved community.

(01:01:14):
Um.
I mean, that sort of show ofdefiance, if you will, is something
that's warming my heart today.

Nora (01:01:22):
That's perfect.
Yes.
And always an excuse for grilling.
I will show up.
Yes.
Yes.
And food sharing of food,

Marcus (01:01:32):
I'll not subject anybody to my cooking, but I'll do the cleaning.
So, yeah.

Nora (01:01:37):
Um, I think mine is also.
Um, time related a bit, although I'vebeen thinking a bit about June also as a,
a time of solstice and long, long, longsummer days here in Seattle for anyone
who doesn't live at this, uh, latitude.
You know, our days just go on foreverat this time of year, and it produces a

(01:01:59):
little bit of, um, uh, well, it producesa lot of joyousness and a little bit of
kind of hyperactivity and, uh, weirdness.
Um, I, I always think of June as like theweirdest month in Seattle, which I love.
Um, we have like naked bike ridesand things to celebrate solstice.
Um, the farmer that I get my farm sharefrom says that during this part of the

(01:02:21):
summer, they experience the oppositeof seasonal affective disorder that
they experience instead, what he callsseasonal overproductive disorder.
Um.
At a time when everything politicalseems so bad and so backtracking
and just in such a deep backslide,um, I've been trying to just
notice where growth is happening.
Um, and our, our plants andour systems are in this like

(01:02:43):
hyper drive of growth right now.
Yeah.
Um, that's also my way of gracefullysaying that I've given up weeding
my garden, just informing myneighbors that I have given up that
fight and it is over for a while.

Marcus (01:02:56):
That is like the best euphemism I've ever heard.
Uh, I gotta say Dora, ofthat, I'm gonna use that on my
neighbor as a matter of fact.
Absolutely.
When, when they're complaining about,you know, overgrowth into their yard.
So I'm just allowing lifeto grow in abundance.

Nora (01:03:12):
Exactly.

Marcus (01:03:14):
Absolutely.
Well, with that being said, I willgo ahead and read us out today.
Uh, thank you all for joining us foranother episode of, in the Meanwhile,
as always, a huge shout out to ourPhil producer Jessica Park Now.
And to a hum a Luo forproviding music for the show.
You can find and follow us on yourfavorite podcast platform or on

(01:03:34):
YouTube, Instagram, our Blue Skynew episodes drop every Friday.
And until then, we'llsee you in the meanwhile.