July 4, 2025 • 56 mins
Synopsis: This week on In the Meanwhile, Nora and Marcus sit down with journalist Schuyler Mitchell to unpack how we went from “defund the police” to cities doubling down on militarized crackdowns: complete with riot gear, surveillance drones, and bipartisan gaslighting.
Drawing from Mitchell’s Truthout exposé on the LAPD’s long history of unchecked brutality, the conversation explores how both Trump and so-called “resistance” leaders like Gavin Newsom helped build today’s authoritarian toolkit. They break down the blurred lines between ICE, local police, and Homeland Security, the failure of reforms, and why police budgets keep growing while communities are left to fend for themselves. It’s a sharp and sobering conversation about what public safety really means, what abolition demands, and why hope lives in mutual aid, memory, and refusing to settle for brunch as a political strategy.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Schuyler Mitchell (00:00):
You know, we've seen people with signs at
(00:03):
protests saying if Kamala had won,we'd all be at brunch right now.
And I think that is really troublingand dangerous because, you know,
even no matter who is in power,we should continue to, to push
for, for better from our electeds.
Marcus Harrison Green (00:21):
Hello and welcome back to another episode of,
in the Meanwhile, I'm Marcus Harrison.
Green.
Nora Kenworthy (00:27):
And I'm Nora Kenworthy.
Marcus Harrison Green (00:29):
Nora, I gotta tell you, recent events
have me waking up feeling likeit's the roulette will of doom.
Like will it be World War iii, ai,overlords takeover, economic collapse,
or maybe just a light drizzleplague in fascism with your coffee.
I.
Nora Kenworthy (00:42):
I know and it changes like three times throughout the day too.
I just wanna know what flavor ofapocalypse we're gonna get every
day so I can dress accordingly.
Is it like tactical, fleeceand beans or like fascism chic?
It's very hard to anticipate
Marcus Harrison Green (01:00):
so much though.
I mean, I'll say apparently the dresscode these days is civilian body armor.
Just in case she missed the photosof LAPD playing GI Joe against
protesters over the last month.
Um, and unfortunately it isn't just in la
Nora Kenworthy (01:14):
Yeah.
Body armor and a face mask.
Um, because I gotta point out,as a public health person, we are
outlawing masks for health reasons,but masking up for fascism is.
Perfectly fine.
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
But whether it's Selma in the sixties orSeattle during the WTO protests in the
nineties, or what we've seen over thelast few weeks, it really does feel like
(01:35):
the same playbook over and over again.
Riot gear versus righteousanger, and somehow.
Almost always the unarmedcivilians get the blame.
Marcus Harrison Green (01:44):
Right.
It, I gotta say, you know, in,in thinking about today's topic
and today's guests, you know, wastransported back obviously to, to 2020.
Nora Kenworthy (01:54):
Mm-hmm.
Marcus Harrison Green (01:55):
When, you know, and after George Floyd was murdered
by police Officer Derek Chauvinin Minneapolis, you know, I was.
Naive enough to think that maybe wehad reached a point where, oh, okay,
yeah, this, this is sort of thiswatershed moment, right where we are.
Yeah.
Going to finally changethings for the better.
We're going to like reassess andreevaluate, you know, how we keep
(02:18):
our community safe, that maybewe just don't need to throw a ton
of money behind police officers.
Maybe we'd need to actually.
I don't know, address, like some ofthese downstream problems and so forth.
And then, you know, you fast forwarda year or two later and there's
of, of course a, a huge backlash.
Yeah.
And I, I remember at that time, and notto, you know, re-litigate the slogan,
(02:39):
defund the police, but I was talkingto a friend of mine at the time, uh,
Enrique Serna, who I was, uh, workingwith on a limited series podcast.
And we were, I remember he was like.
Dude that is not going to, uh,withstand, you know, that's
not gonna endure too long.
Yeah.
Like I, he's like, I promise you, like alot of the, uh, the folks who I know in
the suburbs and other places they are, aregoing to revolt against that eventually.
(03:04):
And, and that is what happened.
And he said, mm-hmm.
You know, I remember him at the time,he said, I think it would've been
better if we were workshopping aslogan to say demilitarize the police.
Oh
Nora Kenworthy (03:14):
yeah.
Because
Marcus Harrison Green (03:15):
you know that.
I think people easily get thata little bit more, particularly
with these low information voters.
At the time, I didn't think muchabout it, but you know, looking back
with the, you know, the advantageof hindsight, it's kind of like, you
know, maybe, you know, maybe we couldhave workshopped it a little bit.
Maybe things would've would'vehappened and I, you know, and.
Or maybe that changewould've stuck, I should say.
(03:36):
And I'll say like, when you look at thoseimages coming from LA and other places,
you know, I, I do think maybe now isthis time to, to have that conversation
in, in a very real way, particularlywhen there are so many officials at.
The city level, at the state level, atthe federal level, who continue to sort
of run away from anything that whiffs,quote unquote of defund the police.
(03:59):
But I do think the fact that so manypeople across class, across race, right
across generations are being impacted.
By heavily armed, heavily militarizedpolice that, you know, maybe this is
the time where folks can be like, youknow, maybe we need to rethink just all
of these tools and all of this fundingthat we're giving to, um, these blotted
(04:22):
police departments, you know, duringthis time period when we have so much
else that is going on in our communities.
Nora Kenworthy (04:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, maybe it's demilitarized,maybe it's refund community safety.
I don't know.
I mean, it did feel like.
Whiplash between like 2020 and howquickly that slogan and that idea
was just tossed out the window.
I mean, I remember reading Miriam Kaba.
Amazing op-ed in the New York Timesin 2020, which was titled, yes, we
(04:51):
mean literally Abolish the Police.
And I remember thinking, oh my God, thisis a moment like the New York Times,
you know?
Um, and you were
Marcus Harrison Green (05:01):
very correct.
It was just a moment.
Nora Kenworthy (05:03):
It was a moment, and then the next election cycle.
So I work as a, a. I volunteeras a precinct officer, which is
like the lowest level of politicalinvolvement that you can get if you
believe that all politics is local.
It's literally like walking around andtalking to your immediate neighbors,
um, and trying to get out the vote.
(05:24):
And I remember the next electioncycle, I was walking around
my neighborhood, you know.
In North Seattle where probablyin Seattle, we had some of the
most intense conversations arounddefund, right outside of, you
know, Minneapolis and other places.
And, but it didn't happen, right?
And I, and I had all these neighborswho were like, wow, the Seattle
(05:45):
City Council defunded the police.
And I was like.
Are you kidding me?
They are handing out $40,000 Yes.
Signing bonuses to in increase thenumbers of police in Seattle, but my
neighbors completely thought that wehad done defund and it didn't work
and I, it was just such a disconnectfrom so and, and such a short.
(06:08):
Memory.
Right.
Even of what the goalwas and where we got,
Marcus Harrison Green (06:13):
right?
I mean, even now, you know, the, there's amayoral election going on in Seattle and,
uh, as well as the city council election.
I wanna say for, I, I thinkit's roughly, uh, two seats,
or excuse me, three seats here.
And without naming any names, I willtell you, I've talked to candidates
who let's just say are very.
Aligns with the lefts and eventhey are like, yeah, that's
(06:37):
something I can't touch.
I can't, I can't say anything about, yeah.
Anything that may hint that I wantto, you know, defund the police just
because again, of perception, right?
And it's even though that the perceptiondoesn't match what the reality was or
is, you know, it doesn't matter, right?
Mm-hmm.
I mean, you have so manypeople running away from it.
That being said, they're running awayfrom it at a time when we still have
(06:59):
these issues, they, it didn't go away.
In the five years since 2020,right there, there's still need
for accountability and Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, can we just get real aboutpolice training in America for a second?
Cops get four to six months of training.
That's it.
That's less than what ittakes to become a barber.
So you are basically telling me someonewho fades your hair gets more education
(07:19):
than someone who can legally kill you.
And most of that training, it's firearms,it's self-defense, it's legal codes.
You know what they don't spenda lot of time on deescalation,
trauma-informed care, culturalcompetency, you know, like the actual
job you have to do as a police officer.
Um, and this is actually just, youdon't have to say more word for it.
Yes.
This is according to the police executiveresearch form that they have said that.
(07:45):
Police officers spend about eight hourson crisis intervention, eight hours.
That's one workday.
That's less time than I spentwatching season three of squid games.
So meanwhile, they get over100 hours of gun training.
That's not just training,that's like a Call of Duty
real life edition or something.
Nora Kenworthy (08:02):
Yeah.
I mean, I do wish that more people beyondthe sort of visceral reaction to the idea
of defund, I do wish that more people werenormalizing the idea that the police do
not always keep us safe and rarely do.
Right.
Right.
And, and that was something that atleast for me in 2020, like really.
Really became a very deep,visceral realization for me.
(08:27):
I remember being out marching in2020 and the cops that were on the
March route, all of them had theirbadge numbers and names covered.
They were not right preventing.
Vehicles from driving into theareas where protesters were, we
had protest organizers out on likebicycles, trying to keep people from
(08:50):
being kind of plowed into by cars.
Um, and then, you know, we saw.
This is true in Seattle, butalso true in other places.
We saw that this real backlash by policeagainst, especially white neighborhoods,
um, right, of sort of saying, oh,oh, you thought this was a good idea?
Well, we're not gonna respond.
(09:10):
We're gonna make things, I, we're gonnamake it as clear as possible to you.
That defund means that, you know,you white privileged neighborhoods
no longer have the resourcesthat you need and somehow.
A lot of neighborhoods respondedby like, oh, okay, we were wrong.
Rather than being like, wait a second,isn't it so messed up that the police
(09:31):
response to any measure of accountabilityis like, we're not gonna respond right,
and we're not gonna actually do our jobs.
How does that.
End up with us reinvestingin this institution.
Marcus Harrison Green (09:44):
I, I'm, I'm gonna go on a limb and say that you, do you
think that would transfer to academia
anyhow?
I just too.
That being said, but yeah, to,I mean, to your point, it's,
it is utterly ridiculous.
And I also think that there's justsort of a misunderstanding, quite
frankly, of what police do, right?
(10:04):
I mean, it's, it's not as if this isthat, that movie Minority report where
they like have some level of, you know,uh, clairvoyance where they know that
there's some thought crime being doneor something, and they can, you know,
arrive to the scene before it happens.
I mean, they're.
Literally responding to thingsafter they have already happened.
So, you know, anyhow.
Nora Kenworthy (10:27):
Well, we have a guest today who I think will
help shed some light on thisand some wisdom on this for us.
Marcus Harrison Green (10:42):
Skyler Mitchell is a sharp minded writer, editor, and
fact-checker, Helen from North Carolina,and currently raising hail in Brooklyn.
Her bylines have landed in TheIntercept, the Baffler Labor Notes
Los Angeles Magazine and more.
Most recently, she dropped a banger of anarticle in Truth Out Unpacking how decades
of Unchecked LAPD brutality helped setthe stage for Trump's protest crackdown.
(11:05):
Skylar, thank you so muchfor joining us today.
Schuyler Mitchell (11:07):
Thank you so much for having me.
Marcus Harrison Green (11:09):
I wanna begin at the beginning of your piece, uh, in
Truth Out You, you've open it with thishunting, visual armor, trucks on sunset,
curfews, flash bangs, street medics forfolks outside of LA or those who've.
Maybe grown numb to these images.
Can you talk about what it feels liketo see these cycles repeat, you know,
I'm thinking of the WTO protests here inSeattle, the 2020 BLM marches and so on.
(11:34):
Um, can you, can you talk to usabout what's changed, if anything?
I.
Schuyler Mitchell (11:40):
Yeah, so as I write about in the piece, 2020 was
the first time I had personally bornwitness to such a militarized, heavy
handed, uh, police response to protest.
And I know that it wasn'tjust like that in Los Angeles.
We saw it in 2020 in New York andMinneapolis and across the country.
But it's really surreal on theground to experience because you.
(12:05):
We'll be there.
You'll see in a, you'll getin a group of people marching,
chanting, calling for justice.
And then, you know, you have copsshow up with guns and batons and
surveillance, drones flying overhead orlike tanks rumbling down the block, uh,
when na, national Guard has called in.
So, yeah, like you touch on, I thinkLA in particular has long been a
(12:26):
flashpoint for these types of scenes.
Going back to the Watts Rebellionin the sixties or mm-hmm.
The Rodney King riots in the nineties.
I am not currently based in Los Angeles,but from what I've heard from people on
the ground in the most recent protestsagainst the ICE raids, you know, once
again, what we're seeing is reallyoverkill with the police response.
(12:48):
Overwhelmingly, theprotests have been peaceful.
Also, property damage is notthe same thing as violence
inflicted against people, buteven, you know, property damage.
While the media might like to reallyemphasize those images, that's
certainly not the vast majority of thepeople that are showing up to protest
and, and call for, for justice andto speak out against the ICE raids.
(13:11):
So in terms of what's changed, I mean,you know, classic the, the more things
change, the more things stay the same.
When things that that's changed,you know, we definitely have
more surveillance and higher techpolicing, but, you know, I think that.
The, the sad thing is the protestin 2020, people were speaking out
against police brutality and obviouslythe police murder of George Floyd.
(13:35):
And there was this moment where itfelt like things could really change.
And so, you know, I think we wereall hoping with the 2025 protests
in Los Angeles, that maybe the LAPDand uh, you know, state forces would
have learned, uh, some lessons from.
The past five years and before then, butI'm not so sure that, uh, we are seeing,
(13:59):
um, a very different response this time.
If anything, I, I feel like it'sbeen even more heavy handed.
Marcus Harrison Green (14:04):
Yeah.
And, and now I know you're currentlyin, in Brooklyn and a, as we know,
the New York City police definitelyhave a, uh, are known for their
vast restraints, uh, out there.
So, uh,
Nora Kenworthy (14:17):
yeah.
But,
Marcus Harrison Green (14:18):
but, but I am just curious too, just, you know, in 2020, as
you mentioned, the, you know, there were.
It seemed, at least certainly to,from my perspective as a journalist,
that, you know, there was this sort ofattention that was finally being paid in.
Um.
You know, some, you know, sortof collective way that, oh, you
(14:41):
know, maybe police, you know, don'tnecessarily always keep us safe.
Or maybe, you know, there aresome, or maybe there are some,
some issues here that, you know,that have been long standing and we
finally need to, uh, address them.
And then, you know, you kind of had.
Unfortunately you had a backlash andsome folks sort of fall back asleep, and
(15:02):
your piece sort of reminded me of thatin the sense that you point out that it's
often the presence of militarized policethat escalates violence and your time.
And again, the public is so the opposite.
So I wanna ask you, how do weshift public understanding of what
actually keeps communities safe?
Schuyler Mitchell (15:19):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Just going back to what you said aboutthe, the presence of militarized police
escalating violence, it's definitelysomething that, you know, when you're
physically there at protests, it,it makes a lot of intuitive sense.
I mean, like I sort of touched on earlier.
You might be at a, a peaceful marchor a protest, and then you're having,
(15:41):
you know, state forces show up,um, with this display of, um, real
state power and, um, often violence.
And it, it can really escalate things and,you know, but then there's actually a, a
body of research going back 50 years thatalso corroborates this, this, you know.
There's, um, been lots of studiesthat have found that when a National
(16:02):
Guard is, is deployed, um, when policeshow up with, um, you know, and, and
respond very aggressively to protestthat this is often what, you know,
escalates what's happening on the ground.
And so in terms of shiftingpublic understanding, I.
I, it, you know, there'sso many different things.
Um, I do think getting out on the streetsand, you know, being involved, whether
(16:24):
it's being involved in protesting ororganizing our mutual aid efforts,
even just, you know, getting to knowyour neighbors and getting involved
in your community and in whatever way.
I think that often.
We hear these things in the abstract.
We hear about studies that have been done.
We see things on the news, but the bestway to actually internalize those messages
(16:44):
and, you know, change the understandingis by experiencing it yourself.
Um, you know, I think that, just, justan example, right, in terms of is, um.
You know, it, it just takes like oneinteraction I think, with somebody
(17:04):
who's been personally impacted bythe police violence, for instance.
Um, you know, to kind of bringthat message home and, um,
make somebody more aware of.
You know what, what the realityactually is that's happening.
I think.
Um,
Marcus Harrison Green (17:18):
I mean, I I'm just curious of your thoughts of, you know,
because, you know, we, in 2020, right?
I mean, you had peopletaken to the streets.
It was ma a catalyst for thatwas mainly that, you know, this
a black man, um, was seen on, youknow, recorded on film, you know.
Uh, being murdered by a police officer,essentially, like in, we fast forward to
(17:41):
2025 and, you know, you see those scenesin, in LA and you see sort of a vast array
of people who are being impacted, right?
By, you know, police actions,police, police uses of force, right?
With you, you're seeing folks sort of,uh, cross class coalition, cross-racial
coalition, right, who are being teargassed and impacted and affected.
And so I, I guess to put a finepoint on it, I want to ask you.
(18:04):
Do you think that maybe because thisis something that folks from a variety
of different backgrounds are seeing,you know, impacts their, you know,
quote unquote identitarian communities,that this is, you know, that this
could potentially be a, a flashpointwhere folks are like, oh yeah, you
know, maybe we should revisit thiswhole police reform or police, uh,
(18:27):
um, police accountability movement.
Schuyler Mitchell (18:31):
Yeah.
You know, I think that it cercertainly I, I would, I would love
to see a renewed energy toward that.
I think the ice raids, you know, I. Thereason why LA has become a flashlight
for some of this is because, you know,when people talk about their undocumented
neighbors, they're not being metaphorical.
I mean, it's literally like,it, it might be, you know,
literally your next door neighbor.
(18:52):
It could be the the guy that you see everyday that you buy, you know, mango from.
I mean, people that you have relationshipswith have gotten to know on a first
scene basis, and then you're seeingthem literally get abducted by.
You know, ice agents and masks.
It's, it's horrifying.
And I think that, you know, that's sortof why I also talk about th this, this,
bringing it from the abstract to thepersonal, I think can be really helpful.
(19:16):
Um, like you're saying too, you know,people actually experiencing, um, these
excess uses of force on the, on thestreets, um, from, from police officers, I
think that, you know, it is all connected.
Um.
It's not just like, and that's sortof what I touch on in my piece.
It's not just, um, you know, the, the,the LAPD having decades of impunity really
(19:43):
to, you know, brutalized protestors to,um, you know, use excess force on, you
know, particularly black communities.
Um, LAPD.
You know, the civil liabilitysettlements that the LAPD pays
out that are millions of dollars,um, in legal liability, have not.
(20:05):
You know, really moved the needle in,in terms of, of how they, they respond.
And I think when you have thatculture of violence and this culture
of, you know, policing and massincarceration, it really fuels, um,
it, it fuels other forms of violence.
Like, it, it's all part of the samesystem, you know, whether it's ice
abducting people off the streets.
Um, although, you know, there'sobviously, uh, differences.
(20:28):
I, I think that, you know, we, whatwe have seen too, you know, with.
What we've seen in the last.
A couple years.
I do think more and morepeople are becoming active.
More and more people are becominginterested in, um, mutual aid.
They're becoming more interestedin organizing in their communities.
(20:50):
I think the Gaza solidarity movementalso has made a lot more people
politically active and kind of tapped in.
Um, and so yeah, we will, we'll seehow, you know, the, uh, levers of.
Power sort of respond towhat people are saying.
I think that is, um, but there'scertainly a lot of of movement and
(21:13):
it could become another flashpoint.
I think that more so even than justthe protests in la I think it's going
to be the, you know, the actionswe're seeing across the country from
border patrol and ice, um, you know,targeting undocumented communities.
Nora Kenworthy (21:28):
Yeah.
Skylar, I'm so glad you'rementioning that all of these
systems come from the same problem.
Right.
Um, and one of the thing that's beenreally striking to me as I've, you
know, watched a lot of what's goingon is it seems harder and harder
to differentiate between policeand ice and homeland security.
I mean, you have.
Ice officers out wearing police garb.
You have, you know, no oneidentifying themselves.
(21:51):
Um, and then you have increasing fearsof rogue actors and impersonators,
like the ones that we saw in Minnesota.
So do you think the role of thepublic at this moment is to.
Demand more accountabilitybetween and among these different
agencies and their actors?
Or is it to argue that they're all equallyundermining community safety, um, and
that they all need to be in, in some senseabolished or, um, wholly revised at least.
Schuyler Mitchell (22:17):
Yeah.
No, I, that's a great question.
I think that it's, well, it's justinsane that that ICE agents are, you
know, the scenes that we're seeingwith these men in masks where there's
just no even ability to tell halfthe time, you know who they are, what
department they're, they're acting on.
You know, we saw thisin LA actually recently.
(22:38):
There was a reporter,an Australian reporter.
On live tv who was struckby a rubber bullet.
And, you know, LAPD waspresent at that, um, protest.
Department of HomelandSecurity was also present.
And I think it was also state patrol thatwas also present and it was unclear, you
know, who had fired the rubber bullet.
So I think that confusion is part ofthe strategy because it means that
(23:02):
nobody has to take accountabilitywhen things, uh, do escalate.
So, you know, in terms, but interms of calling for, so, so I think
those things work together, right?
Like we can call for agreater transparency and uh,
around who is doing what.
Uh, because often those systems ofaccountability will be different.
(23:24):
So, uh, local police force.
Reports differently than a federal agency.
And just in terms of where a civilliability lawsuit would get filed and who
would be paying it, um, it's important toknow who acted in, in which situation so
that we can hold those agents accountable.
And I think that that is not, um, atodds with also recognizing that these.
(23:49):
Different bodies often act togetherand act with shared interests.
And, you know, it's important topinpoint that Los Angeles, uh,
your, the local police are notsupposed to collaborate with ice.
And we don't have, I. Evidence rightnow that the LAPD was explicitly
assisting in the ICE raids, right.
(24:10):
I want, I'm not sayingthat that's what happened.
They were showing up at protests in theprotests that were held in response to
the ICE raids and they were respondingvery aggressively to these protests.
Um, so, you know, it's sortof one step removed, but still
serving the same overarching goal.
But, you know, we're seeing in otherstates, particularly in the south, um.
(24:34):
You know, in Georgia and North Carolina,we're seeing local law enforcement also
collaborating really explicitly with ICE.
And the Department of Homeland Security,you know, whether it's providing the
federal government with a list of namesof people when the government asks for
it, and you know, helping get out on thestreet and performing, uh, traffic stops
and taking people into local custody andthen transferring them to ICE custody.
(24:58):
So there's a lot of ways thatthese systems are interconnected
and I think that the.
You know, cowardice of these iceagents that are, you know, why, why
would they be shielding their facesif they weren't doing something wrong?
I guess, although plenty of copsact, uh, with their face on full
view and are recorded and postedon the internet and still also,
(25:20):
you know, suffer no consequences.
So, um, yeah, it's onlyone part of it, but yeah.
Nora Kenworthy (25:26):
Yeah.
I mean, I think that brings meto another one of our questions.
I'm really glad that you mentionedthe kind of, um, legal settlements
that have happened, um, againstpolice in LA and in cities, um, and
municipalities all over the country.
I mean, you mentioned in your piecethat LA paid out nearly $12 million
in legal settlements after 2020.
(25:47):
It's really important for peopleto understand that that is paid
out from city budgets that aresupported by taxpayers, right?
So taxpayers are paying for the, um,the crimes and the violence of police.
Um, and then.
That these costs are absorbed by thepublic with no structural accountability.
Um, in fact, we know that the LApolice budget has implications for
(26:09):
overall budget shortfalls in the city.
Right?
We saw a lot of accusations of thatduring the LA wildfires, for example.
So in this context, what does realaccountability look like in the
system that's designed to reallyinsulate these police departments
from greater consequences?
Schuyler Mitchell (26:28):
Right.
Well, I think.
That is a big argument for, you know,that a lot of abolitionists have,
which is that the system can't bereformed because when we see all these
different ways of trying to enforceaccountability, we're, we're still
seeing the same abuses happen and we'rehaving independent reports corroborate
the fact that maybe there were thesesystems in place to ensure accountability
(26:50):
on paper, but then in practice it,it wasn't exactly what shook out.
But you know, on a more granular level,often these liability payments in, in Los
Angeles, and I know it's also the case inNew York, are paid from the city's general
fund versus the agency specific budget.
So, you know, like youtouched on in Los Angeles, the
(27:11):
overspending, you know, LA is.
Having a budget shortfall, and one ofthe things that the city controller
has pointed to in the audits of thecity budget is overpaying on liability.
And it's not just the LAPD that hassettlements and they, this can even
be for something like if somebody.
Trips on the sidewalk and suesthe city, that that's a, that's
a liability payment, but it is abig portion of that is the LAPD.
(27:36):
And yeah, we're not seeing thatimpact the mayor's decision making
around how money gets allocated.
You know, one thing that washappening with the LAPD budget was
money has continued to be allocatedfor police officer positions that
they're having trouble filling.
So they are.
(27:56):
Experiencing recruitment issues, whichI do think is a sign that, uh, a big
part of that was a drop after 2020.
And I think people are more criticalof the police and people are maybe less
likely to want to become a police officer,which I think is probably a good thing.
But they're still budgeting the moneyfor those seats that they can't fill.
(28:17):
So, um.
Yeah, so that, so the LAPD budget, Ithink it was something like 15 to 20%
of, of the most recent city budget.
But then in terms of the actualamount total that it was paying,
just overall, it was somethingcloser to a third of the city budget.
I. You know, another thingis ending qualified immunity.
So, you know, right now anybodyworking for the government is
(28:42):
shielded from civil liability.
It's, it's, um, the, the, thepolice department that pays
versus the individual officer.
And there's been a lot of movementand criminal justice circles in
terms of ending qualified immunity.
We're also seeing, you know, a, somebacktracking, obviously with the
Trump Department of Justice on reformsthat were put in place and efforts
(29:06):
to hold police officers accountable.
So, you know, the Department of Justicerecently deleted that, a database that
was tracking police misconduct andis pulling back on prosecuting cases
against officers, um, for abuses.
So.
We're seeing a lot of backtracking, and Ithink that the system does a really good
(29:27):
job at absorbing reforms that are passedand attempts to ensure accountability.
And I think a lot of people though justdon't realize how broken the system is.
Frankly, as somebody who wasalways in progressive left spaces.
I don't think I realized how brokenthings really were until I started
(29:50):
reporting on the prison industrialcomplex and reporting on policing.
And it's one of those things where themore you learn it actually looks worse.
It's, it's not like, you know, peoplein the public have this idea of the
police being corrupt or the prisonindustrial complex being corrupt.
And then if.
We really knew how it worked,then it would actually be better.
It's actually all way worse.
(30:11):
Probably worse than even I know.
Um, because once you start reportingon it, um, it's just the, the layers of
abuses and, you know, shielding peoplefrom accountability just goes so deep.
Marcus Harrison Green (30:23):
But I do wanna return to your piece because
you talk about one of the mostdamning through lines in it.
Is about how the groundwork for Trump'sauthoritarianism wasn't just laid
by Republicans, but also so-calledresistance leaders, if you will, like
California Governor Gavin Newsom.
Can you, uh, walk us through thatcomplicity and what we should
(30:43):
learn from this bait and switch?
Schuyler Mitchell (30:46):
Yeah.
So yeah, my piece points out that in 2020,Gavin Newsom authorized the deployment of
8,000 National Guard troops in California,many of which were sent to Los Angeles
to respond to the, the protests againstthe police murder of George Floyd and.
Now he has been a leading, uh,source in, in the media speaking out
(31:10):
against Trump's authorization of,of the National Guard and sending
the National Guard to Los Angeles.
I do think there is a differencethat is worth I. Uh, pointing out
where Trump federalizing the NationalGuard without asking Newsom, is an
expansion of presidential of power.
You know, he's going beyond thebounds of his legal authority.
(31:30):
What the lawsuit that Californiarecently filed alleges.
There's certainly a concerningauthoritarian slide that, uh,
this country is going down and,or, you know, it already is.
We're, I, I hate the language of anauthoritarian slippage because I feel like
it sort of obscures all these ways thatwe, we really are in a pretty dire moment.
(31:53):
But anyways, you know, Trumphas consistently been ignoring
the, the law and ignoring theconstitution and expanding the, uh,
bounds of presidential authority.
And so that was certainlythe case in California.
However, I think that it's beenvery convenient for Newsom to.
Sees on this moment of California versusthe Trump administration, Democrat
(32:18):
versus Republican, and just completelynot acknowledge the fact that he, you
know, if, if even if Newsom had said,okay, great said in the National Guard,
it still wouldn't have been okay.
And I listened to Newsom's interviewon the Daily, shortly after all of
this happened with Michael Babar and.
(32:39):
I was just really struck by thefact that he really emphasized the
fact that Trump hadn't asked him forpermission first or given him a heads
up and how they talked on the phone.
Yet Trump had made no mention that hewas going to send the National Garden.
I. And he really focused on that.
And the fact that the troops that hadbeen sent to Los Angeles were sitting
(33:00):
around with nothing to do and howit was just such a shame that, you
know, our great service members werebeing used for something like this
when local law enforcement reallyjust had everything under control.
And, and those were the, thetalking points that he had, um, on
the, the New York Times podcast.
And I was really struck by that becauseeven though he's coming out in the
headlines and he's correctly sayingin press releases and things that.
(33:22):
This is wrong, and this isanti-democratic and this is authoritarian.
Then when he was asked a bit more aboutit, his, his qualm was really that,
that, that it was this expansion ofpresidential power and, and he expressed
great admiration for the LAPD and forlaw enforcement in, in Los Angeles
(33:43):
and I that just very conveniently, um,elides a a lot of the history there and.
Uh, what was actuallyhappening on, on the ground.
Nora Kenworthy (33:55):
Yeah.
And I think it's an open secretthat, uh, Newsom is positioning
himself for a 2028 presidential run.
So I guess I'm wondering how wecan hold folks like him responsible
for, um, the positions that they'retaking, not just denouncing.
Um, Trump's tactics, but also, um, thepositions that they've taken in the
(34:15):
past, like we're describing that haveenabled some of the same violence,
um, to persist at the local level.
So how can we kind of address someof that hypocrisy more publicly?
Schuyler Mitchell (34:27):
You know, I really like the work that I do in journalism
because as much as I talk about.
Abuses of power on the rightor corporate wrongdoing.
I am also able to write piecesthat critique the Democratic
establishment, and I think thatpeople have a very short memory and I.
(34:50):
I like being able to publish piecesthat remind people of things that
Democrats have said and done whilethey've been in power, things that might
contradict their public statements.
And I do think that that is an importantcomponent of journalism is to be a
watchdog and to hold power to account and.
(35:14):
You know, it's sad that journalism isdying and there's less and less space
to do those, those types of pieces.
But I think that, you know, whether Iam working at Truth Out or My Time at
The Intercept, a lot of my work hasbeen to yeah, to, to not, I'm not really
partisan and with who I will critique or,you know, point, point out because I, I
(35:37):
think that, yeah, it's really importantto hold all of our electeds accountable.
Um.
There's a push, I think, amongprogressives to primary, uh, incumbents
who are more like entrenched inthe Democratic establishment.
We're seeing, um, people kind of teeup potential, uh, races for Congress.
(35:58):
And to, to, to primary these,these more establishment, yeah.
Establishment Democrats.
And I think that that is exciting.
I don't, I think in terms of the, atthe presidential level, it's not really
clear what we're going to see in termsof a, a progressive challenge in 2028.
I feel like that's still shakingout, but certainly, yeah.
In New York, uh, there's been a lot of.
Really exciting energy around ZoranDonnie's campaign, and I think that if
(36:24):
we're able to harness that momentum acrossthe country, it could be really powerful.
I, I, I mean the, the, the riseof Zo Ron's campaign has just
been really incredible to see.
And I think that what time and timeagain, you're having people say that
they want change, that they want,you know, real change, that they
(36:45):
want, uh, a progressive candidate.
We're, and then we're seeing the crushof, of money and super PAC funding and,
you know, the, the people, people whohave an interest in maintaining the status
quo that, that come out to defeat that.
But I guess the, the, on the brightside, I really do believe that the, the
will of the people is, is strong and.
(37:06):
That is ultimately has more longevitythan like a small group who, of of people
who have a lot of money and, and power.
I think that, you know, ultimatelythat if people keep, you know,
showing up and, uh, pushing for,you know, making these demands and,
(37:29):
you know, because you mentioned, uh.
New York, you know, when just thinkingabout, um, reforming public safety and,
and rethinking the way that we think aboutthe role of police in our communities.
Uh, you know, zahran, part of hisproposal is, uh, department of Community
Safety, which would involve expandingmental health services and crisis
intervention and victim support.
And, you know, he actually hasn't calledon defunding the NYPD or reducing the
(37:55):
size of the NYPD, which I think is.
Tactically smart because we haveseen a lot of real pushback to the
defund movement, which was really justrhetorical, like most of the actual,
very little defunding actually happened.
And thank you for fact checkingthat and saying that, God.
Anyway, yeah, so I mean, we just,the, the disconnect again between
(38:18):
the, the rhetoric and the mediaversus the actual reality is huge.
And I think.
You know, I am able to acknowledgethat like the political strategy.
I, I think Zo Ron's political strategywith that is smart because I, I
do think that, I mean, the NYPD issuper bloated and it's almost a meme
(38:41):
in New York, you know, seeing copsstanding around playing Candy Crush
or Subway surfers on their phones.
I mean, you just see that all the time.
Right.
You, uh, I just, theother day they were like.
Probably 10 cops that showed up, justseemingly just to talk to someone.
I mean, there was nothing happening.
I mean, and there were like eightcars blocking the road and, and you
(39:02):
know, you just see that all the time.
You see so much waste and bloat and,uh, but you know, I think that coming
up with these proposals for communitysafety, mental health support, crisis
intervention, victim support, andreally just rethinking the way that.
We think about public safety and takinga, a whole of government approach, uh, a
(39:24):
multi-pronged approach, I think is whatmakes a lot of intuitive sense to people.
And I think when they see that, um,represented by politicians and hear
politicians speak to that, I thinkit's something that people can really
get behind who might be leery of more.
Like, I guess left wing rhetoricor radical rhetoric, which
(39:45):
isn't even radical at all.
But I think, you know, people can,we can kind of start small and
then kind of go from there at thismoment where we're seeing this, this
backslide that that doesn't meanthat we need to move the goalposts.
Right.
Which I think is a really dangerous.
Saying that can happen when we're ina right wing reactionary moment is
suddenly our demands get, um, contractedor we we're not able to actually see
(40:10):
the, the possibilities, uh, or the, thebigger possibilities that are in place.
And we're just sort of in thisdefensive mode of responding to
all of these right wing attacks andthis erosion of civil liberties.
And I think it's really importantnot to get distracted by that, to
still have these long-term goals andthen also think really strategically
about how yeah, we're holding.
Politicians accountable.
(40:32):
I'm continuing to, to push for,you know, real progressive change.
And I hope that the, I don't even wannasay silver lining of Trump's presidency
'cause I don't really believe in that.
But you know, we've seen.
People with signs at protestssaying if Kamala had won, we'd
all be at brunch right now.
And I think that is really troublingand dangerous because, you know, even
(40:57):
no matter who is in power, we shouldcontinue to, to push for, for better
from our electeds and certainly betterfrom the democratic establishment and
should not, you know, be going to brunch.
But the good thing is, is yeah, peopleare really activated right now and, uh,
responding to, to the current moment.
Nora Kenworthy (41:14):
Yeah, I'm really glad that you, uh, mentioned both
the brunch thing, um, and therealities of where we are with defund.
Um, right.
Because, uh, in most cities, policebudgets have actually grown since 2020.
Um.
And I would say, you know, we opened withthis question for you of like, what's
different, what's changed over time?
Like, is this justhistory repeating itself?
And it seems to me like the only thingthat changes is that police departments
(41:36):
continue to get more and more militarizedover time, um, and acquire more and
more surveillance, um, technologiesand technologies of violence, um,
with very little public oversight.
You know, you.
And your piece by talking aboutcalling for people to, as you put
it, look beyond the media spectacleto the horizon of abolition.
(41:58):
And I guess I'm wondering like, whereare we in relation to that horizon today?
I see people starting to usethe language of abolition again
when referring to ice, right?
I think there's some mm-hmm.
Kind of movement that's happening.
But I guess for.
For listeners who are beginning toquestion or beginning to re-question
(42:20):
the role of militarized police andICE and other agencies, like how
would you, how would you point themtowards that horizon of abolition and
what it means for us as a society?
Schuyler Mitchell (42:34):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think, and I really like thatyou pinpointed the, there have been
calls to abolish ice because ICE is.
You know, hasn't beenaround for that long.
I think, you know, the Department ofHomeland Security was invented, you
know, after nine 11, and I think,again, people's memories are very
(42:55):
short, but history is very long.
And I think that, you know, even thoughI do think the horizon of abolition, as
I put it, feels quite far away right now.
To use another, you know,truism like progress isn't
linear and I think that, yeah.
(43:15):
You know, just a few years agowhen I think a OC said something
about abolishing ice, there wasmostly just a lot of pushback.
And now, yeah, we're seeing peopletake up that mantle and in a way that,
that they weren't just a few years ago.
So that is very encouraging to see.
I think for people who are just beginningto question policing and, uh, question
(43:40):
the prison industrial complex question,these systems, I think that I. Kind
of going back to what I said earlier,I mean the, I I approach it from, you
know, a, a deep sort of moral commitmentor, you know, ideological commitment.
But I think there's also thisreally pragmatic component where
(44:01):
it's, you know, mass imprisonment.
Reproduces conditions that leadto people in prison, police
violence, re reproduces violence.
And this is something thatwe've seen time and time again.
So on this really fundamental level,if you're somebody who is concerned
about public safety or concerned about,you know, violence in a community.
(44:23):
Pinpointing the specific ways thatthe police in, in that community do
or don't, um, actually contribute toreducing that violence or, or creating
a more, you know, safe community.
I, it's very well documentedand I think that, you know,
(44:44):
there a lot of people, I mean.
I don't know when I, I, when I startedgetting involved in, um, like a support
group for, for formerly incarceratedpeople, uh, in my community, you know,
these people who are involved in the, thesupport group who ha, who are personally
impacted by the criminal justice system.
(45:04):
C, they come from all sorts of,of different backgrounds and
they don't all come to that spacewith a particular political.
Par like Party or pol specificpolitical inclination, they come
to that space because they've,you know, had this experience.
They've seen the abuses of the systemfirsthand and the ways that, you
(45:24):
know, tearing somebody away from acommunity, um, you know, that's not just.
There's 2 million people that areincarcerated in the US but every person is
an entire universe and network of people.
You take one person out of, of acommunity and lock them up and sever
their ties, you know, with society.
And that that's not just their immediatefamily, but that has a ripple effect.
And I think just, you know, callingattention to that, uh, you know,
(45:49):
having, you know, offering solutionsto people that are not, you know,
pointing out the ways that, you know.
When you call 9 1 1, police oftenshow up and they cause more problems.
That, uh, a lot of the time there'sbeen so many instances of, of, of
that happening where, where, you know,an officer will respond to a call
and then end up, you know, arrestingthe wrong person or firing a weapon.
(46:12):
And I, I think that, yeah, I thinkfor people who are interested, it,
it doesn't need, we, we can startsmall and we can point out like
specific, um, pragmatic ways that.
Police.
Police aren't making communities safer.
Marcus Harrison Green (46:27):
Yeah.
Well, I'll end by saying that Iknow there are a lot of people
who are in sort of desperate needof some form of hope these days.
You know, when it comes to this issue ofpolice accountability, um, I. And so I
wanna ask you, uh, what are you seeingeven at, you know, sort of the communal
levels that gives you hope that, you know,even if you don't have optimism, that
(46:50):
that just gives you hope that there's,you know, some momentum to carry forward
with, um, sort of dismantling, um, what,what we've come to know as, uh, you know,
as what law enforcement is right now.
Schuyler Mitchell (47:04):
Yeah, well certainly on the, on the ice front, I think
we've really seen a mass mobilizationof a different local ice watch groups.
You know, people turning sortof, that, that language of, of
surveillance and community watch,kind of back against the state and.
Keeping each other informed aboutwhen they, they see ice agents
(47:28):
conducting raids and showing up to,to support and, and protests when
they, when they hear about things.
I think that.
Even though things feel quite bad rightnow, I do think back to 2020 and the COVID
Lockdowns and how, you know, everythingfelt so crushing and terrifying.
(47:50):
And in Los Angeles we saw a lotof where I was living at the time.
We saw a lot of mutual aid efforts.
Come out of that moment.
And then those were then repurposedduring the protests in 2020.
And then we saw those, those same groupsactivate again after the wildfires.
That happened in January this year.
(48:11):
I think the wildfires were a realflashpoint in LA of mutual aid groups
coming together and sharing resources.
And then I think we're seeing thatsame infrastructure now kind of.
Be useful during this, thismoment with the ice raids.
And so, you know, as much as it'sterrible that bad things keep happening,
I also think in LA there, there, therehave been these networks that have
(48:35):
been forming and kind of growing andevery time there's been, uh, a crisis,
we're seeing people come togetherAnd, um, it's certainly the case.
It was funny when I lived in LA in2020, people kind of complained about
the organizing there being not as.
Strong or robust as it was in New York.
And now that I'm in New York, people inNew York are pointing towards LA saying,
(48:57):
why aren't we as organized as LA is?
And so I do also think the grass is alwaysa bit greener and you know, and it, it
might never feel like enough, but I thinkthat we're seeing a, a lot of, of movement
across the country and seeing, you know,people respond to disasters and, you
know, I'm originally from North Carolina.
(49:18):
This is kind of a, adiff totally different.
Not totally different.
It might seem like a very different thing,but after Hurricane Helene hit in Western
North Carolina, the way that communitymembers sort of rose to that challenge to
support each other was really incredible.
And then we saw it againafter the fires in la.
And so once you start to sort of buildthose connections in the wake of.
(49:40):
Natural disasters that can actuallybe really fruitful for later,
you know, political mobilizationand, and political education.
Because if you don't know people, how areyou going to organize them, obviously.
And so I think that there hasbeen, I just think a lot of,
of attention and energy there.
And I think that it's, we need more of it.
(50:02):
And I think with the new crises everyday that the Trump administration
presents, I do think we're goingto see more and more people.
You know, responding and we and I,that, that definitely is something
that encourages me and gives me hope.
Hmm.
Nora Kenworthy (50:19):
Thank you for that.
I, that's like such a lovely way ofstating how crisis builds movements.
Um, yeah.
Marcus Harrison Green (50:27):
And also thanks for affirming that there is
such a thing as hurricane season.
I know some, some people don't knowthat that is the thing that we're in
this administration, so, um, oh my God.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That being said, Skylar, just thankyou so very much for joining us, you.
That was just an outstandingpiece and truth out.
Um, we will.
Make sure to link to it.
(50:48):
Um, and if we are ever out inBrooklyn, we will make sure to grab
brunch no matter who the leader is.
And, um, just thank youfor your continued work.
Schuyler Mitchell (50:58):
Yeah, thank you.
I, I really enjoyed this conversationand it was so great meeting you both.
Marcus Harrison Green (51:12):
All right.
So Nora, it's comes to that time ofmy favorite part in our show today
is sharing our eight ounces of joy.
Um, I gotta say, actually,this might be my favorite time.
Of the week because it's mm-hmm.
One time where I get to focuson something that is not the
hellscape that it's right now.
(51:32):
So that being said, I, I wentfirst, last week, um, here to share
your eight ounces of joy today.
Nora Kenworthy (51:39):
Yeah.
It was a hard week for me to find joy.
I was actually, my, my mom hasbeen listening to the podcast and
she was like, you sound weirdly.
Optimistic and I was,
this is me sounding optimisticaccording to my mom.
Um, but
um, I. It was a hard week to findsome of that joy that the news felt
(52:05):
particularly, um, shitty as it were.
Um, yeah, but I walked into a reallycool print shop over the weekend
and it was just filled with allof this beautiful protest art.
Um, and art for Pride and it was justthese beautiful handmade posters and
(52:25):
zines and I was just reminded of howmuch the art of resistance like fills
by cup and makes me feel so much.
Um, it's something that we've seen outon, on the streets a lot, but um, I
just kind of wanna give gratitude toall the artists who are still making art
that makes us think about these things.
(52:45):
I'm gonna give a particular shout outto the, um, uh, the website Political
Side Quest, which has some really coolresistance art and zines and stuff.
Um, and yeah, just all, all theartists and print makers and makers of
things that make us still feel things.
Marcus Harrison Green (53:04):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Um.
That's a great one, Nora.
Um,
Nora Kenworthy (53:09):
what's yours?
Marcus Harrison Green (53:10):
So mine is I, uh, I have a friend, she's a unitarian
chaplain in Wisconsin, and so she textedme this, uh, story, uh, the other day and
it's just kind of a Lazarus style story.
So, um.
She, you know, had this, uh, patientwho literally on her deathbed and,
(53:32):
um, the, you know, the family goesand, and gathers around 'cause her
doctor's like, you know, she doesn'thave, you know, much time left.
And so, uh, the family's is gatheredaround her in her hospital bed
and they all go around one by one.
Um, you know, apologizing for thingsthat they had did happen, you know, that
things that they had had done to, tohurt, you know, this person, and by one by
(53:54):
one, she goes and she forgives them and,
Nora Kenworthy (53:57):
Hmm,
Marcus Harrison Green (53:57):
she, you know, it's, it's, they all gather together.
They tell each other that they love her.
And then, you know, it seemingly,it, it was if seemingly, you know,
uh, she had, uh, the doctor hadthought she had actually passed away
the next day only to only for hernot to have actually passed away.
(54:18):
And so it, um, and so the, youknow, she's, she's alive right
now and so the, the family, youknow, kind of gathered again.
Wow.
And was just like, wow.
We have like, in some ways.
And we don't know how much timewe have left with you, right?
But we know that we sort of have areset with you in some ways, right?
Hmm.
We have a renewed relationship, right?
(54:40):
And so how do we take that timenow with this, with having let go
of this hurt and having let go ofthe pain that we cause each other?
How do we live now?
Right?
And I don't know, you know, it.
I'm not a woo person, as you know,but I thought just that being
a great metaphor for right now.
Right.
(55:00):
Of like, what, what can we do, youknow, in terms of our own inner sort of
interpersonal relationships when we'veforgiven people or people have forgiven
us, and how do we then proceed to livelife once we're no longer caring, um,
you know, grudges and pettiness and,and pain, and how do we, you know,
how do we approach life after that?
(55:21):
Right.
Given sort of, mm-hmm.
Grace and, um, so I don't know.
I've been, I've been thinking aboutthat, um, you know, over the last few
days and, uh, you know, if nothingelse that just, um, I don't know.
It's, it's a nice story.
I.
Nora Kenworthy (55:36):
Yeah.
Marcus Harrison Green (55:36):
Anyhow,
Nora Kenworthy (55:37):
it reminds me so much of our conversation with
Dean Spade last week about repair.
Um, yeah.
And how important that workis, um, but also that new
chances come along all the time.
Marcus Harrison Green (55:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's the, I, I think, you know,somebody sewed me once, like, you
live long enough, you know, life willgive you the grace of second and,
and sometimes third chances, right.
You just have to be, uh,uh, be attuned to the.
So anyhow.
Well, on that note, I will go,you know, before I sound start
(56:11):
sounding too much like Brene Brownyesterday, I'll, on that note, we
will go ahead and I will read us out.
Thank you for joining us for anotherepisode of In the Meanwhile, as always, a
huge shout out to our Sharp Ear producer,Jessica, part now, and to the musical
genius, Aham a Luo for our show music.
You can find and follow us on yourfavorite podcast platform or on
(56:35):
YouTube, Instagram, our Blue Skynew episodes drop every Friday.
And until then, we'llsee you in the meanwhile.
You know, we've seen people with signs at
(00:03):
protests saying if Kamala had won,we'd all be at brunch right now.
And I think that is really troublingand dangerous because, you know,
even no matter who is in power,we should continue to, to push
for, for better from our electeds.
Marcus Harrison Green (00:21):
Hello and welcome back to another episode of,
in the Meanwhile, I'm Marcus Harrison.
Green.
Nora Kenworthy (00:27):
And I'm Nora Kenworthy.
Marcus Harrison Green (00:29):
Nora, I gotta tell you, recent events
have me waking up feeling likeit's the roulette will of doom.
Like will it be World War iii, ai,overlords takeover, economic collapse,
or maybe just a light drizzleplague in fascism with your coffee.
I.
Nora Kenworthy (00:42):
I know and it changes like three times throughout the day too.
I just wanna know what flavor ofapocalypse we're gonna get every
day so I can dress accordingly.
Is it like tactical, fleeceand beans or like fascism chic?
It's very hard to anticipate
Marcus Harrison Green (01:00):
so much though.
I mean, I'll say apparently the dresscode these days is civilian body armor.
Just in case she missed the photosof LAPD playing GI Joe against
protesters over the last month.
Um, and unfortunately it isn't just in la
Nora Kenworthy (01:14):
Yeah.
Body armor and a face mask.
Um, because I gotta point out,as a public health person, we are
outlawing masks for health reasons,but masking up for fascism is.
Perfectly fine.
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
But whether it's Selma in the sixties orSeattle during the WTO protests in the
nineties, or what we've seen over thelast few weeks, it really does feel like
(01:35):
the same playbook over and over again.
Riot gear versus righteousanger, and somehow.
Almost always the unarmedcivilians get the blame.
Marcus Harrison Green (01:44):
Right.
It, I gotta say, you know, in,in thinking about today's topic
and today's guests, you know, wastransported back obviously to, to 2020.
Nora Kenworthy (01:54):
Mm-hmm.
Marcus Harrison Green (01:55):
When, you know, and after George Floyd was murdered
by police Officer Derek Chauvinin Minneapolis, you know, I was.
Naive enough to think that maybe wehad reached a point where, oh, okay,
yeah, this, this is sort of thiswatershed moment, right where we are.
Yeah.
Going to finally changethings for the better.
We're going to like reassess andreevaluate, you know, how we keep
(02:18):
our community safe, that maybewe just don't need to throw a ton
of money behind police officers.
Maybe we'd need to actually.
I don't know, address, like some ofthese downstream problems and so forth.
And then, you know, you fast forwarda year or two later and there's
of, of course a, a huge backlash.
Yeah.
And I, I remember at that time, and notto, you know, re-litigate the slogan,
(02:39):
defund the police, but I was talkingto a friend of mine at the time, uh,
Enrique Serna, who I was, uh, workingwith on a limited series podcast.
And we were, I remember he was like.
Dude that is not going to, uh,withstand, you know, that's
not gonna endure too long.
Yeah.
Like I, he's like, I promise you, like alot of the, uh, the folks who I know in
the suburbs and other places they are, aregoing to revolt against that eventually.
(03:04):
And, and that is what happened.
And he said, mm-hmm.
You know, I remember him at the time,he said, I think it would've been
better if we were workshopping aslogan to say demilitarize the police.
Oh
Nora Kenworthy (03:14):
yeah.
Because
Marcus Harrison Green (03:15):
you know that.
I think people easily get thata little bit more, particularly
with these low information voters.
At the time, I didn't think muchabout it, but you know, looking back
with the, you know, the advantageof hindsight, it's kind of like, you
know, maybe, you know, maybe we couldhave workshopped it a little bit.
Maybe things would've would'vehappened and I, you know, and.
Or maybe that changewould've stuck, I should say.
(03:36):
And I'll say like, when you look at thoseimages coming from LA and other places,
you know, I, I do think maybe now isthis time to, to have that conversation
in, in a very real way, particularlywhen there are so many officials at.
The city level, at the state level, atthe federal level, who continue to sort
of run away from anything that whiffs,quote unquote of defund the police.
(03:59):
But I do think the fact that so manypeople across class, across race, right
across generations are being impacted.
By heavily armed, heavily militarizedpolice that, you know, maybe this is
the time where folks can be like, youknow, maybe we need to rethink just all
of these tools and all of this fundingthat we're giving to, um, these blotted
(04:22):
police departments, you know, duringthis time period when we have so much
else that is going on in our communities.
Nora Kenworthy (04:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, maybe it's demilitarized,maybe it's refund community safety.
I don't know.
I mean, it did feel like.
Whiplash between like 2020 and howquickly that slogan and that idea
was just tossed out the window.
I mean, I remember reading Miriam Kaba.
Amazing op-ed in the New York Timesin 2020, which was titled, yes, we
(04:51):
mean literally Abolish the Police.
And I remember thinking, oh my God, thisis a moment like the New York Times,
you know?
Um, and you were
Marcus Harrison Green (05:01):
very correct.
It was just a moment.
Nora Kenworthy (05:03):
It was a moment, and then the next election cycle.
So I work as a, a. I volunteeras a precinct officer, which is
like the lowest level of politicalinvolvement that you can get if you
believe that all politics is local.
It's literally like walking around andtalking to your immediate neighbors,
um, and trying to get out the vote.
(05:24):
And I remember the next electioncycle, I was walking around
my neighborhood, you know.
In North Seattle where probablyin Seattle, we had some of the
most intense conversations arounddefund, right outside of, you
know, Minneapolis and other places.
And, but it didn't happen, right?
And I, and I had all these neighborswho were like, wow, the Seattle
(05:45):
City Council defunded the police.
And I was like.
Are you kidding me?
They are handing out $40,000 Yes.
Signing bonuses to in increase thenumbers of police in Seattle, but my
neighbors completely thought that wehad done defund and it didn't work
and I, it was just such a disconnectfrom so and, and such a short.
(06:08):
Memory.
Right.
Even of what the goalwas and where we got,
Marcus Harrison Green (06:13):
right?
I mean, even now, you know, the, there's amayoral election going on in Seattle and,
uh, as well as the city council election.
I wanna say for, I, I thinkit's roughly, uh, two seats,
or excuse me, three seats here.
And without naming any names, I willtell you, I've talked to candidates
who let's just say are very.
Aligns with the lefts and eventhey are like, yeah, that's
(06:37):
something I can't touch.
I can't, I can't say anything about, yeah.
Anything that may hint that I wantto, you know, defund the police just
because again, of perception, right?
And it's even though that the perceptiondoesn't match what the reality was or
is, you know, it doesn't matter, right?
Mm-hmm.
I mean, you have so manypeople running away from it.
That being said, they're running awayfrom it at a time when we still have
(06:59):
these issues, they, it didn't go away.
In the five years since 2020,right there, there's still need
for accountability and Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, can we just get real aboutpolice training in America for a second?
Cops get four to six months of training.
That's it.
That's less than what ittakes to become a barber.
So you are basically telling me someonewho fades your hair gets more education
(07:19):
than someone who can legally kill you.
And most of that training, it's firearms,it's self-defense, it's legal codes.
You know what they don't spenda lot of time on deescalation,
trauma-informed care, culturalcompetency, you know, like the actual
job you have to do as a police officer.
Um, and this is actually just, youdon't have to say more word for it.
Yes.
This is according to the police executiveresearch form that they have said that.
(07:45):
Police officers spend about eight hourson crisis intervention, eight hours.
That's one workday.
That's less time than I spentwatching season three of squid games.
So meanwhile, they get over100 hours of gun training.
That's not just training,that's like a Call of Duty
real life edition or something.
Nora Kenworthy (08:02):
Yeah.
I mean, I do wish that more people beyondthe sort of visceral reaction to the idea
of defund, I do wish that more people werenormalizing the idea that the police do
not always keep us safe and rarely do.
Right.
Right.
And, and that was something that atleast for me in 2020, like really.
Really became a very deep,visceral realization for me.
(08:27):
I remember being out marching in2020 and the cops that were on the
March route, all of them had theirbadge numbers and names covered.
They were not right preventing.
Vehicles from driving into theareas where protesters were, we
had protest organizers out on likebicycles, trying to keep people from
(08:50):
being kind of plowed into by cars.
Um, and then, you know, we saw.
This is true in Seattle, butalso true in other places.
We saw that this real backlash by policeagainst, especially white neighborhoods,
um, right, of sort of saying, oh,oh, you thought this was a good idea?
Well, we're not gonna respond.
(09:10):
We're gonna make things, I, we're gonnamake it as clear as possible to you.
That defund means that, you know,you white privileged neighborhoods
no longer have the resourcesthat you need and somehow.
A lot of neighborhoods respondedby like, oh, okay, we were wrong.
Rather than being like, wait a second,isn't it so messed up that the police
(09:31):
response to any measure of accountabilityis like, we're not gonna respond right,
and we're not gonna actually do our jobs.
How does that.
End up with us reinvestingin this institution.
Marcus Harrison Green (09:44):
I, I'm, I'm gonna go on a limb and say that you, do you
think that would transfer to academia
anyhow?
I just too.
That being said, but yeah, to,I mean, to your point, it's,
it is utterly ridiculous.
And I also think that there's justsort of a misunderstanding, quite
frankly, of what police do, right?
(10:04):
I mean, it's, it's not as if this isthat, that movie Minority report where
they like have some level of, you know,uh, clairvoyance where they know that
there's some thought crime being doneor something, and they can, you know,
arrive to the scene before it happens.
I mean, they're.
Literally responding to thingsafter they have already happened.
So, you know, anyhow.
Nora Kenworthy (10:27):
Well, we have a guest today who I think will
help shed some light on thisand some wisdom on this for us.
Marcus Harrison Green (10:42):
Skyler Mitchell is a sharp minded writer, editor, and
fact-checker, Helen from North Carolina,and currently raising hail in Brooklyn.
Her bylines have landed in TheIntercept, the Baffler Labor Notes
Los Angeles Magazine and more.
Most recently, she dropped a banger of anarticle in Truth Out Unpacking how decades
of Unchecked LAPD brutality helped setthe stage for Trump's protest crackdown.
(11:05):
Skylar, thank you so muchfor joining us today.
Schuyler Mitchell (11:07):
Thank you so much for having me.
Marcus Harrison Green (11:09):
I wanna begin at the beginning of your piece, uh, in
Truth Out You, you've open it with thishunting, visual armor, trucks on sunset,
curfews, flash bangs, street medics forfolks outside of LA or those who've.
Maybe grown numb to these images.
Can you talk about what it feels liketo see these cycles repeat, you know,
I'm thinking of the WTO protests here inSeattle, the 2020 BLM marches and so on.
(11:34):
Um, can you, can you talk to usabout what's changed, if anything?
I.
Schuyler Mitchell (11:40):
Yeah, so as I write about in the piece, 2020 was
the first time I had personally bornwitness to such a militarized, heavy
handed, uh, police response to protest.
And I know that it wasn'tjust like that in Los Angeles.
We saw it in 2020 in New York andMinneapolis and across the country.
But it's really surreal on theground to experience because you.
(12:05):
We'll be there.
You'll see in a, you'll getin a group of people marching,
chanting, calling for justice.
And then, you know, you have copsshow up with guns and batons and
surveillance, drones flying overhead orlike tanks rumbling down the block, uh,
when na, national Guard has called in.
So, yeah, like you touch on, I thinkLA in particular has long been a
(12:26):
flashpoint for these types of scenes.
Going back to the Watts Rebellionin the sixties or mm-hmm.
The Rodney King riots in the nineties.
I am not currently based in Los Angeles,but from what I've heard from people on
the ground in the most recent protestsagainst the ICE raids, you know, once
again, what we're seeing is reallyoverkill with the police response.
(12:48):
Overwhelmingly, theprotests have been peaceful.
Also, property damage is notthe same thing as violence
inflicted against people, buteven, you know, property damage.
While the media might like to reallyemphasize those images, that's
certainly not the vast majority of thepeople that are showing up to protest
and, and call for, for justice andto speak out against the ICE raids.
(13:11):
So in terms of what's changed, I mean,you know, classic the, the more things
change, the more things stay the same.
When things that that's changed,you know, we definitely have
more surveillance and higher techpolicing, but, you know, I think that.
The, the sad thing is the protestin 2020, people were speaking out
against police brutality and obviouslythe police murder of George Floyd.
(13:35):
And there was this moment where itfelt like things could really change.
And so, you know, I think we wereall hoping with the 2025 protests
in Los Angeles, that maybe the LAPDand uh, you know, state forces would
have learned, uh, some lessons from.
The past five years and before then, butI'm not so sure that, uh, we are seeing,
(13:59):
um, a very different response this time.
If anything, I, I feel like it'sbeen even more heavy handed.
Marcus Harrison Green (14:04):
Yeah.
And, and now I know you're currentlyin, in Brooklyn and a, as we know,
the New York City police definitelyhave a, uh, are known for their
vast restraints, uh, out there.
So, uh,
Nora Kenworthy (14:17):
yeah.
But,
Marcus Harrison Green (14:18):
but, but I am just curious too, just, you know, in 2020, as
you mentioned, the, you know, there were.
It seemed, at least certainly to,from my perspective as a journalist,
that, you know, there was this sort ofattention that was finally being paid in.
Um.
You know, some, you know, sortof collective way that, oh, you
(14:41):
know, maybe police, you know, don'tnecessarily always keep us safe.
Or maybe, you know, there aresome, or maybe there are some,
some issues here that, you know,that have been long standing and we
finally need to, uh, address them.
And then, you know, you kind of had.
Unfortunately you had a backlash andsome folks sort of fall back asleep, and
(15:02):
your piece sort of reminded me of thatin the sense that you point out that it's
often the presence of militarized policethat escalates violence and your time.
And again, the public is so the opposite.
So I wanna ask you, how do weshift public understanding of what
actually keeps communities safe?
Schuyler Mitchell (15:19):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Just going back to what you said aboutthe, the presence of militarized police
escalating violence, it's definitelysomething that, you know, when you're
physically there at protests, it,it makes a lot of intuitive sense.
I mean, like I sort of touched on earlier.
You might be at a, a peaceful marchor a protest, and then you're having,
(15:41):
you know, state forces show up,um, with this display of, um, real
state power and, um, often violence.
And it, it can really escalate things and,you know, but then there's actually a, a
body of research going back 50 years thatalso corroborates this, this, you know.
There's, um, been lots of studiesthat have found that when a National
(16:02):
Guard is, is deployed, um, when policeshow up with, um, you know, and, and
respond very aggressively to protestthat this is often what, you know,
escalates what's happening on the ground.
And so in terms of shiftingpublic understanding, I.
I, it, you know, there'sso many different things.
Um, I do think getting out on the streetsand, you know, being involved, whether
(16:24):
it's being involved in protesting ororganizing our mutual aid efforts,
even just, you know, getting to knowyour neighbors and getting involved
in your community and in whatever way.
I think that often.
We hear these things in the abstract.
We hear about studies that have been done.
We see things on the news, but the bestway to actually internalize those messages
(16:44):
and, you know, change the understandingis by experiencing it yourself.
Um, you know, I think that, just, justan example, right, in terms of is, um.
You know, it, it just takes like oneinteraction I think, with somebody
(17:04):
who's been personally impacted bythe police violence, for instance.
Um, you know, to kind of bringthat message home and, um,
make somebody more aware of.
You know what, what the realityactually is that's happening.
I think.
Um,
Marcus Harrison Green (17:18):
I mean, I I'm just curious of your thoughts of, you know,
because, you know, we, in 2020, right?
I mean, you had peopletaken to the streets.
It was ma a catalyst for thatwas mainly that, you know, this
a black man, um, was seen on, youknow, recorded on film, you know.
Uh, being murdered by a police officer,essentially, like in, we fast forward to
(17:41):
2025 and, you know, you see those scenesin, in LA and you see sort of a vast array
of people who are being impacted, right?
By, you know, police actions,police, police uses of force, right?
With you, you're seeing folks sort of,uh, cross class coalition, cross-racial
coalition, right, who are being teargassed and impacted and affected.
And so I, I guess to put a finepoint on it, I want to ask you.
(18:04):
Do you think that maybe because thisis something that folks from a variety
of different backgrounds are seeing,you know, impacts their, you know,
quote unquote identitarian communities,that this is, you know, that this
could potentially be a, a flashpointwhere folks are like, oh yeah, you
know, maybe we should revisit thiswhole police reform or police, uh,
(18:27):
um, police accountability movement.
Schuyler Mitchell (18:31):
Yeah.
You know, I think that it cercertainly I, I would, I would love
to see a renewed energy toward that.
I think the ice raids, you know, I. Thereason why LA has become a flashlight
for some of this is because, you know,when people talk about their undocumented
neighbors, they're not being metaphorical.
I mean, it's literally like,it, it might be, you know,
literally your next door neighbor.
(18:52):
It could be the the guy that you see everyday that you buy, you know, mango from.
I mean, people that you have relationshipswith have gotten to know on a first
scene basis, and then you're seeingthem literally get abducted by.
You know, ice agents and masks.
It's, it's horrifying.
And I think that, you know, that's sortof why I also talk about th this, this,
bringing it from the abstract to thepersonal, I think can be really helpful.
(19:16):
Um, like you're saying too, you know,people actually experiencing, um, these
excess uses of force on the, on thestreets, um, from, from police officers, I
think that, you know, it is all connected.
Um.
It's not just like, and that's sortof what I touch on in my piece.
It's not just, um, you know, the, the,the LAPD having decades of impunity really
(19:43):
to, you know, brutalized protestors to,um, you know, use excess force on, you
know, particularly black communities.
Um, LAPD.
You know, the civil liabilitysettlements that the LAPD pays
out that are millions of dollars,um, in legal liability, have not.
(20:05):
You know, really moved the needle in,in terms of, of how they, they respond.
And I think when you have thatculture of violence and this culture
of, you know, policing and massincarceration, it really fuels, um,
it, it fuels other forms of violence.
Like, it, it's all part of the samesystem, you know, whether it's ice
abducting people off the streets.
Um, although, you know, there'sobviously, uh, differences.
(20:28):
I, I think that, you know, we, whatwe have seen too, you know, with.
What we've seen in the last.
A couple years.
I do think more and morepeople are becoming active.
More and more people are becominginterested in, um, mutual aid.
They're becoming more interestedin organizing in their communities.
(20:50):
I think the Gaza solidarity movementalso has made a lot more people
politically active and kind of tapped in.
Um, and so yeah, we will, we'll seehow, you know, the, uh, levers of.
Power sort of respond towhat people are saying.
I think that is, um, but there'scertainly a lot of of movement and
(21:13):
it could become another flashpoint.
I think that more so even than justthe protests in la I think it's going
to be the, you know, the actionswe're seeing across the country from
border patrol and ice, um, you know,targeting undocumented communities.
Nora Kenworthy (21:28):
Yeah.
Skylar, I'm so glad you'rementioning that all of these
systems come from the same problem.
Right.
Um, and one of the thing that's beenreally striking to me as I've, you
know, watched a lot of what's goingon is it seems harder and harder
to differentiate between policeand ice and homeland security.
I mean, you have.
Ice officers out wearing police garb.
You have, you know, no oneidentifying themselves.
(21:51):
Um, and then you have increasing fearsof rogue actors and impersonators,
like the ones that we saw in Minnesota.
So do you think the role of thepublic at this moment is to.
Demand more accountabilitybetween and among these different
agencies and their actors?
Or is it to argue that they're all equallyundermining community safety, um, and
that they all need to be in, in some senseabolished or, um, wholly revised at least.
Schuyler Mitchell (22:17):
Yeah.
No, I, that's a great question.
I think that it's, well, it's justinsane that that ICE agents are, you
know, the scenes that we're seeingwith these men in masks where there's
just no even ability to tell halfthe time, you know who they are, what
department they're, they're acting on.
You know, we saw thisin LA actually recently.
(22:38):
There was a reporter,an Australian reporter.
On live tv who was struckby a rubber bullet.
And, you know, LAPD waspresent at that, um, protest.
Department of HomelandSecurity was also present.
And I think it was also state patrol thatwas also present and it was unclear, you
know, who had fired the rubber bullet.
So I think that confusion is part ofthe strategy because it means that
(23:02):
nobody has to take accountabilitywhen things, uh, do escalate.
So, you know, in terms, but interms of calling for, so, so I think
those things work together, right?
Like we can call for agreater transparency and uh,
around who is doing what.
Uh, because often those systems ofaccountability will be different.
(23:24):
So, uh, local police force.
Reports differently than a federal agency.
And just in terms of where a civilliability lawsuit would get filed and who
would be paying it, um, it's important toknow who acted in, in which situation so
that we can hold those agents accountable.
And I think that that is not, um, atodds with also recognizing that these.
(23:49):
Different bodies often act togetherand act with shared interests.
And, you know, it's important topinpoint that Los Angeles, uh,
your, the local police are notsupposed to collaborate with ice.
And we don't have, I. Evidence rightnow that the LAPD was explicitly
assisting in the ICE raids, right.
(24:10):
I want, I'm not sayingthat that's what happened.
They were showing up at protests in theprotests that were held in response to
the ICE raids and they were respondingvery aggressively to these protests.
Um, so, you know, it's sortof one step removed, but still
serving the same overarching goal.
But, you know, we're seeing in otherstates, particularly in the south, um.
(24:34):
You know, in Georgia and North Carolina,we're seeing local law enforcement also
collaborating really explicitly with ICE.
And the Department of Homeland Security,you know, whether it's providing the
federal government with a list of namesof people when the government asks for
it, and you know, helping get out on thestreet and performing, uh, traffic stops
and taking people into local custody andthen transferring them to ICE custody.
(24:58):
So there's a lot of ways thatthese systems are interconnected
and I think that the.
You know, cowardice of these iceagents that are, you know, why, why
would they be shielding their facesif they weren't doing something wrong?
I guess, although plenty of copsact, uh, with their face on full
view and are recorded and postedon the internet and still also,
(25:20):
you know, suffer no consequences.
So, um, yeah, it's onlyone part of it, but yeah.
Nora Kenworthy (25:26):
Yeah.
I mean, I think that brings meto another one of our questions.
I'm really glad that you mentionedthe kind of, um, legal settlements
that have happened, um, againstpolice in LA and in cities, um, and
municipalities all over the country.
I mean, you mentioned in your piecethat LA paid out nearly $12 million
in legal settlements after 2020.
(25:47):
It's really important for peopleto understand that that is paid
out from city budgets that aresupported by taxpayers, right?
So taxpayers are paying for the, um,the crimes and the violence of police.
Um, and then.
That these costs are absorbed by thepublic with no structural accountability.
Um, in fact, we know that the LApolice budget has implications for
(26:09):
overall budget shortfalls in the city.
Right?
We saw a lot of accusations of thatduring the LA wildfires, for example.
So in this context, what does realaccountability look like in the
system that's designed to reallyinsulate these police departments
from greater consequences?
Schuyler Mitchell (26:28):
Right.
Well, I think.
That is a big argument for, you know,that a lot of abolitionists have,
which is that the system can't bereformed because when we see all these
different ways of trying to enforceaccountability, we're, we're still
seeing the same abuses happen and we'rehaving independent reports corroborate
the fact that maybe there were thesesystems in place to ensure accountability
(26:50):
on paper, but then in practice it,it wasn't exactly what shook out.
But you know, on a more granular level,often these liability payments in, in Los
Angeles, and I know it's also the case inNew York, are paid from the city's general
fund versus the agency specific budget.
So, you know, like youtouched on in Los Angeles, the
(27:11):
overspending, you know, LA is.
Having a budget shortfall, and one ofthe things that the city controller
has pointed to in the audits of thecity budget is overpaying on liability.
And it's not just the LAPD that hassettlements and they, this can even
be for something like if somebody.
Trips on the sidewalk and suesthe city, that that's a, that's
a liability payment, but it is abig portion of that is the LAPD.
(27:36):
And yeah, we're not seeing thatimpact the mayor's decision making
around how money gets allocated.
You know, one thing that washappening with the LAPD budget was
money has continued to be allocatedfor police officer positions that
they're having trouble filling.
So they are.
(27:56):
Experiencing recruitment issues, whichI do think is a sign that, uh, a big
part of that was a drop after 2020.
And I think people are more criticalof the police and people are maybe less
likely to want to become a police officer,which I think is probably a good thing.
But they're still budgeting the moneyfor those seats that they can't fill.
(28:17):
So, um.
Yeah, so that, so the LAPD budget, Ithink it was something like 15 to 20%
of, of the most recent city budget.
But then in terms of the actualamount total that it was paying,
just overall, it was somethingcloser to a third of the city budget.
I. You know, another thingis ending qualified immunity.
So, you know, right now anybodyworking for the government is
(28:42):
shielded from civil liability.
It's, it's, um, the, the, thepolice department that pays
versus the individual officer.
And there's been a lot of movementand criminal justice circles in
terms of ending qualified immunity.
We're also seeing, you know, a, somebacktracking, obviously with the
Trump Department of Justice on reformsthat were put in place and efforts
(29:06):
to hold police officers accountable.
So, you know, the Department of Justicerecently deleted that, a database that
was tracking police misconduct andis pulling back on prosecuting cases
against officers, um, for abuses.
So.
We're seeing a lot of backtracking, and Ithink that the system does a really good
(29:27):
job at absorbing reforms that are passedand attempts to ensure accountability.
And I think a lot of people though justdon't realize how broken the system is.
Frankly, as somebody who wasalways in progressive left spaces.
I don't think I realized how brokenthings really were until I started
(29:50):
reporting on the prison industrialcomplex and reporting on policing.
And it's one of those things where themore you learn it actually looks worse.
It's, it's not like, you know, peoplein the public have this idea of the
police being corrupt or the prisonindustrial complex being corrupt.
And then if.
We really knew how it worked,then it would actually be better.
It's actually all way worse.
(30:11):
Probably worse than even I know.
Um, because once you start reportingon it, um, it's just the, the layers of
abuses and, you know, shielding peoplefrom accountability just goes so deep.
Marcus Harrison Green (30:23):
But I do wanna return to your piece because
you talk about one of the mostdamning through lines in it.
Is about how the groundwork for Trump'sauthoritarianism wasn't just laid
by Republicans, but also so-calledresistance leaders, if you will, like
California Governor Gavin Newsom.
Can you, uh, walk us through thatcomplicity and what we should
(30:43):
learn from this bait and switch?
Schuyler Mitchell (30:46):
Yeah.
So yeah, my piece points out that in 2020,Gavin Newsom authorized the deployment of
8,000 National Guard troops in California,many of which were sent to Los Angeles
to respond to the, the protests againstthe police murder of George Floyd and.
Now he has been a leading, uh,source in, in the media speaking out
(31:10):
against Trump's authorization of,of the National Guard and sending
the National Guard to Los Angeles.
I do think there is a differencethat is worth I. Uh, pointing out
where Trump federalizing the NationalGuard without asking Newsom, is an
expansion of presidential of power.
You know, he's going beyond thebounds of his legal authority.
(31:30):
What the lawsuit that Californiarecently filed alleges.
There's certainly a concerningauthoritarian slide that, uh,
this country is going down and,or, you know, it already is.
We're, I, I hate the language of anauthoritarian slippage because I feel like
it sort of obscures all these ways thatwe, we really are in a pretty dire moment.
(31:53):
But anyways, you know, Trumphas consistently been ignoring
the, the law and ignoring theconstitution and expanding the, uh,
bounds of presidential authority.
And so that was certainlythe case in California.
However, I think that it's beenvery convenient for Newsom to.
Sees on this moment of California versusthe Trump administration, Democrat
(32:18):
versus Republican, and just completelynot acknowledge the fact that he, you
know, if, if even if Newsom had said,okay, great said in the National Guard,
it still wouldn't have been okay.
And I listened to Newsom's interviewon the Daily, shortly after all of
this happened with Michael Babar and.
(32:39):
I was just really struck by thefact that he really emphasized the
fact that Trump hadn't asked him forpermission first or given him a heads
up and how they talked on the phone.
Yet Trump had made no mention that hewas going to send the National Garden.
I. And he really focused on that.
And the fact that the troops that hadbeen sent to Los Angeles were sitting
(33:00):
around with nothing to do and howit was just such a shame that, you
know, our great service members werebeing used for something like this
when local law enforcement reallyjust had everything under control.
And, and those were the, thetalking points that he had, um, on
the, the New York Times podcast.
And I was really struck by that becauseeven though he's coming out in the
headlines and he's correctly sayingin press releases and things that.
(33:22):
This is wrong, and this isanti-democratic and this is authoritarian.
Then when he was asked a bit more aboutit, his, his qualm was really that,
that, that it was this expansion ofpresidential power and, and he expressed
great admiration for the LAPD and forlaw enforcement in, in Los Angeles
(33:43):
and I that just very conveniently, um,elides a a lot of the history there and.
Uh, what was actuallyhappening on, on the ground.
Nora Kenworthy (33:55):
Yeah.
And I think it's an open secretthat, uh, Newsom is positioning
himself for a 2028 presidential run.
So I guess I'm wondering how wecan hold folks like him responsible
for, um, the positions that they'retaking, not just denouncing.
Um, Trump's tactics, but also, um, thepositions that they've taken in the
(34:15):
past, like we're describing that haveenabled some of the same violence,
um, to persist at the local level.
So how can we kind of address someof that hypocrisy more publicly?
Schuyler Mitchell (34:27):
You know, I really like the work that I do in journalism
because as much as I talk about.
Abuses of power on the rightor corporate wrongdoing.
I am also able to write piecesthat critique the Democratic
establishment, and I think thatpeople have a very short memory and I.
(34:50):
I like being able to publish piecesthat remind people of things that
Democrats have said and done whilethey've been in power, things that might
contradict their public statements.
And I do think that that is an importantcomponent of journalism is to be a
watchdog and to hold power to account and.
(35:14):
You know, it's sad that journalism isdying and there's less and less space
to do those, those types of pieces.
But I think that, you know, whether Iam working at Truth Out or My Time at
The Intercept, a lot of my work hasbeen to yeah, to, to not, I'm not really
partisan and with who I will critique or,you know, point, point out because I, I
(35:37):
think that, yeah, it's really importantto hold all of our electeds accountable.
Um.
There's a push, I think, amongprogressives to primary, uh, incumbents
who are more like entrenched inthe Democratic establishment.
We're seeing, um, people kind of teeup potential, uh, races for Congress.
(35:58):
And to, to, to primary these,these more establishment, yeah.
Establishment Democrats.
And I think that that is exciting.
I don't, I think in terms of the, atthe presidential level, it's not really
clear what we're going to see in termsof a, a progressive challenge in 2028.
I feel like that's still shakingout, but certainly, yeah.
In New York, uh, there's been a lot of.
Really exciting energy around ZoranDonnie's campaign, and I think that if
(36:24):
we're able to harness that momentum acrossthe country, it could be really powerful.
I, I, I mean the, the, the riseof Zo Ron's campaign has just
been really incredible to see.
And I think that what time and timeagain, you're having people say that
they want change, that they want,you know, real change, that they
(36:45):
want, uh, a progressive candidate.
We're, and then we're seeing the crushof, of money and super PAC funding and,
you know, the, the people, people whohave an interest in maintaining the status
quo that, that come out to defeat that.
But I guess the, the, on the brightside, I really do believe that the, the
will of the people is, is strong and.
(37:06):
That is ultimately has more longevitythan like a small group who, of of people
who have a lot of money and, and power.
I think that, you know, ultimatelythat if people keep, you know,
showing up and, uh, pushing for,you know, making these demands and,
(37:29):
you know, because you mentioned, uh.
New York, you know, when just thinkingabout, um, reforming public safety and,
and rethinking the way that we think aboutthe role of police in our communities.
Uh, you know, zahran, part of hisproposal is, uh, department of Community
Safety, which would involve expandingmental health services and crisis
intervention and victim support.
And, you know, he actually hasn't calledon defunding the NYPD or reducing the
(37:55):
size of the NYPD, which I think is.
Tactically smart because we haveseen a lot of real pushback to the
defund movement, which was really justrhetorical, like most of the actual,
very little defunding actually happened.
And thank you for fact checkingthat and saying that, God.
Anyway, yeah, so I mean, we just,the, the disconnect again between
(38:18):
the, the rhetoric and the mediaversus the actual reality is huge.
And I think.
You know, I am able to acknowledgethat like the political strategy.
I, I think Zo Ron's political strategywith that is smart because I, I
do think that, I mean, the NYPD issuper bloated and it's almost a meme
(38:41):
in New York, you know, seeing copsstanding around playing Candy Crush
or Subway surfers on their phones.
I mean, you just see that all the time.
Right.
You, uh, I just, theother day they were like.
Probably 10 cops that showed up, justseemingly just to talk to someone.
I mean, there was nothing happening.
I mean, and there were like eightcars blocking the road and, and you
(39:02):
know, you just see that all the time.
You see so much waste and bloat and,uh, but you know, I think that coming
up with these proposals for communitysafety, mental health support, crisis
intervention, victim support, andreally just rethinking the way that.
We think about public safety and takinga, a whole of government approach, uh, a
(39:24):
multi-pronged approach, I think is whatmakes a lot of intuitive sense to people.
And I think when they see that, um,represented by politicians and hear
politicians speak to that, I thinkit's something that people can really
get behind who might be leery of more.
Like, I guess left wing rhetoricor radical rhetoric, which
(39:45):
isn't even radical at all.
But I think, you know, people can,we can kind of start small and
then kind of go from there at thismoment where we're seeing this, this
backslide that that doesn't meanthat we need to move the goalposts.
Right.
Which I think is a really dangerous.
Saying that can happen when we're ina right wing reactionary moment is
suddenly our demands get, um, contractedor we we're not able to actually see
(40:10):
the, the possibilities, uh, or the, thebigger possibilities that are in place.
And we're just sort of in thisdefensive mode of responding to
all of these right wing attacks andthis erosion of civil liberties.
And I think it's really importantnot to get distracted by that, to
still have these long-term goals andthen also think really strategically
about how yeah, we're holding.
Politicians accountable.
(40:32):
I'm continuing to, to push for,you know, real progressive change.
And I hope that the, I don't even wannasay silver lining of Trump's presidency
'cause I don't really believe in that.
But you know, we've seen.
People with signs at protestssaying if Kamala had won, we'd
all be at brunch right now.
And I think that is really troublingand dangerous because, you know, even
(40:57):
no matter who is in power, we shouldcontinue to, to push for, for better
from our electeds and certainly betterfrom the democratic establishment and
should not, you know, be going to brunch.
But the good thing is, is yeah, peopleare really activated right now and, uh,
responding to, to the current moment.
Nora Kenworthy (41:14):
Yeah, I'm really glad that you, uh, mentioned both
the brunch thing, um, and therealities of where we are with defund.
Um, right.
Because, uh, in most cities, policebudgets have actually grown since 2020.
Um.
And I would say, you know, we opened withthis question for you of like, what's
different, what's changed over time?
Like, is this justhistory repeating itself?
And it seems to me like the only thingthat changes is that police departments
(41:36):
continue to get more and more militarizedover time, um, and acquire more and
more surveillance, um, technologiesand technologies of violence, um,
with very little public oversight.
You know, you.
And your piece by talking aboutcalling for people to, as you put
it, look beyond the media spectacleto the horizon of abolition.
(41:58):
And I guess I'm wondering like, whereare we in relation to that horizon today?
I see people starting to usethe language of abolition again
when referring to ice, right?
I think there's some mm-hmm.
Kind of movement that's happening.
But I guess for.
For listeners who are beginning toquestion or beginning to re-question
(42:20):
the role of militarized police andICE and other agencies, like how
would you, how would you point themtowards that horizon of abolition and
what it means for us as a society?
Schuyler Mitchell (42:34):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think, and I really like thatyou pinpointed the, there have been
calls to abolish ice because ICE is.
You know, hasn't beenaround for that long.
I think, you know, the Department ofHomeland Security was invented, you
know, after nine 11, and I think,again, people's memories are very
(42:55):
short, but history is very long.
And I think that, you know, even thoughI do think the horizon of abolition, as
I put it, feels quite far away right now.
To use another, you know,truism like progress isn't
linear and I think that, yeah.
(43:15):
You know, just a few years agowhen I think a OC said something
about abolishing ice, there wasmostly just a lot of pushback.
And now, yeah, we're seeing peopletake up that mantle and in a way that,
that they weren't just a few years ago.
So that is very encouraging to see.
I think for people who are just beginningto question policing and, uh, question
(43:40):
the prison industrial complex question,these systems, I think that I. Kind
of going back to what I said earlier,I mean the, I I approach it from, you
know, a, a deep sort of moral commitmentor, you know, ideological commitment.
But I think there's also thisreally pragmatic component where
(44:01):
it's, you know, mass imprisonment.
Reproduces conditions that leadto people in prison, police
violence, re reproduces violence.
And this is something thatwe've seen time and time again.
So on this really fundamental level,if you're somebody who is concerned
about public safety or concerned about,you know, violence in a community.
(44:23):
Pinpointing the specific ways thatthe police in, in that community do
or don't, um, actually contribute toreducing that violence or, or creating
a more, you know, safe community.
I, it's very well documentedand I think that, you know,
(44:44):
there a lot of people, I mean.
I don't know when I, I, when I startedgetting involved in, um, like a support
group for, for formerly incarceratedpeople, uh, in my community, you know,
these people who are involved in the, thesupport group who ha, who are personally
impacted by the criminal justice system.
(45:04):
C, they come from all sorts of,of different backgrounds and
they don't all come to that spacewith a particular political.
Par like Party or pol specificpolitical inclination, they come
to that space because they've,you know, had this experience.
They've seen the abuses of the systemfirsthand and the ways that, you
(45:24):
know, tearing somebody away from acommunity, um, you know, that's not just.
There's 2 million people that areincarcerated in the US but every person is
an entire universe and network of people.
You take one person out of, of acommunity and lock them up and sever
their ties, you know, with society.
And that that's not just their immediatefamily, but that has a ripple effect.
And I think just, you know, callingattention to that, uh, you know,
(45:49):
having, you know, offering solutionsto people that are not, you know,
pointing out the ways that, you know.
When you call 9 1 1, police oftenshow up and they cause more problems.
That, uh, a lot of the time there'sbeen so many instances of, of, of
that happening where, where, you know,an officer will respond to a call
and then end up, you know, arrestingthe wrong person or firing a weapon.
(46:12):
And I, I think that, yeah, I thinkfor people who are interested, it,
it doesn't need, we, we can startsmall and we can point out like
specific, um, pragmatic ways that.
Police.
Police aren't making communities safer.
Marcus Harrison Green (46:27):
Yeah.
Well, I'll end by saying that Iknow there are a lot of people
who are in sort of desperate needof some form of hope these days.
You know, when it comes to this issue ofpolice accountability, um, I. And so I
wanna ask you, uh, what are you seeingeven at, you know, sort of the communal
levels that gives you hope that, you know,even if you don't have optimism, that
(46:50):
that just gives you hope that there's,you know, some momentum to carry forward
with, um, sort of dismantling, um, what,what we've come to know as, uh, you know,
as what law enforcement is right now.
Schuyler Mitchell (47:04):
Yeah, well certainly on the, on the ice front, I think
we've really seen a mass mobilizationof a different local ice watch groups.
You know, people turning sortof, that, that language of, of
surveillance and community watch,kind of back against the state and.
Keeping each other informed aboutwhen they, they see ice agents
(47:28):
conducting raids and showing up to,to support and, and protests when
they, when they hear about things.
I think that.
Even though things feel quite bad rightnow, I do think back to 2020 and the COVID
Lockdowns and how, you know, everythingfelt so crushing and terrifying.
(47:50):
And in Los Angeles we saw a lotof where I was living at the time.
We saw a lot of mutual aid efforts.
Come out of that moment.
And then those were then repurposedduring the protests in 2020.
And then we saw those, those same groupsactivate again after the wildfires.
That happened in January this year.
(48:11):
I think the wildfires were a realflashpoint in LA of mutual aid groups
coming together and sharing resources.
And then I think we're seeing thatsame infrastructure now kind of.
Be useful during this, thismoment with the ice raids.
And so, you know, as much as it'sterrible that bad things keep happening,
I also think in LA there, there, therehave been these networks that have
(48:35):
been forming and kind of growing andevery time there's been, uh, a crisis,
we're seeing people come togetherAnd, um, it's certainly the case.
It was funny when I lived in LA in2020, people kind of complained about
the organizing there being not as.
Strong or robust as it was in New York.
And now that I'm in New York, people inNew York are pointing towards LA saying,
(48:57):
why aren't we as organized as LA is?
And so I do also think the grass is alwaysa bit greener and you know, and it, it
might never feel like enough, but I thinkthat we're seeing a, a lot of, of movement
across the country and seeing, you know,people respond to disasters and, you
know, I'm originally from North Carolina.
(49:18):
This is kind of a, adiff totally different.
Not totally different.
It might seem like a very different thing,but after Hurricane Helene hit in Western
North Carolina, the way that communitymembers sort of rose to that challenge to
support each other was really incredible.
And then we saw it againafter the fires in la.
And so once you start to sort of buildthose connections in the wake of.
(49:40):
Natural disasters that can actuallybe really fruitful for later,
you know, political mobilizationand, and political education.
Because if you don't know people, how areyou going to organize them, obviously.
And so I think that there hasbeen, I just think a lot of,
of attention and energy there.
And I think that it's, we need more of it.
(50:02):
And I think with the new crises everyday that the Trump administration
presents, I do think we're goingto see more and more people.
You know, responding and we and I,that, that definitely is something
that encourages me and gives me hope.
Hmm.
Nora Kenworthy (50:19):
Thank you for that.
I, that's like such a lovely way ofstating how crisis builds movements.
Um, yeah.
Marcus Harrison Green (50:27):
And also thanks for affirming that there is
such a thing as hurricane season.
I know some, some people don't knowthat that is the thing that we're in
this administration, so, um, oh my God.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That being said, Skylar, just thankyou so very much for joining us, you.
That was just an outstandingpiece and truth out.
Um, we will.
Make sure to link to it.
(50:48):
Um, and if we are ever out inBrooklyn, we will make sure to grab
brunch no matter who the leader is.
And, um, just thank youfor your continued work.
Schuyler Mitchell (50:58):
Yeah, thank you.
I, I really enjoyed this conversationand it was so great meeting you both.
Marcus Harrison Green (51:12):
All right.
So Nora, it's comes to that time ofmy favorite part in our show today
is sharing our eight ounces of joy.
Um, I gotta say, actually,this might be my favorite time.
Of the week because it's mm-hmm.
One time where I get to focuson something that is not the
hellscape that it's right now.
(51:32):
So that being said, I, I wentfirst, last week, um, here to share
your eight ounces of joy today.
Nora Kenworthy (51:39):
Yeah.
It was a hard week for me to find joy.
I was actually, my, my mom hasbeen listening to the podcast and
she was like, you sound weirdly.
Optimistic and I was,
this is me sounding optimisticaccording to my mom.
Um, but
um, I. It was a hard week to findsome of that joy that the news felt
(52:05):
particularly, um, shitty as it were.
Um, yeah, but I walked into a reallycool print shop over the weekend
and it was just filled with allof this beautiful protest art.
Um, and art for Pride and it was justthese beautiful handmade posters and
(52:25):
zines and I was just reminded of howmuch the art of resistance like fills
by cup and makes me feel so much.
Um, it's something that we've seen outon, on the streets a lot, but um, I
just kind of wanna give gratitude toall the artists who are still making art
that makes us think about these things.
(52:45):
I'm gonna give a particular shout outto the, um, uh, the website Political
Side Quest, which has some really coolresistance art and zines and stuff.
Um, and yeah, just all, all theartists and print makers and makers of
things that make us still feel things.
Marcus Harrison Green (53:04):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Um.
That's a great one, Nora.
Um,
Nora Kenworthy (53:09):
what's yours?
Marcus Harrison Green (53:10):
So mine is I, uh, I have a friend, she's a unitarian
chaplain in Wisconsin, and so she textedme this, uh, story, uh, the other day and
it's just kind of a Lazarus style story.
So, um.
She, you know, had this, uh, patientwho literally on her deathbed and,
(53:32):
um, the, you know, the family goesand, and gathers around 'cause her
doctor's like, you know, she doesn'thave, you know, much time left.
And so, uh, the family's is gatheredaround her in her hospital bed
and they all go around one by one.
Um, you know, apologizing for thingsthat they had did happen, you know, that
things that they had had done to, tohurt, you know, this person, and by one by
(53:54):
one, she goes and she forgives them and,
Nora Kenworthy (53:57):
Hmm,
Marcus Harrison Green (53:57):
she, you know, it's, it's, they all gather together.
They tell each other that they love her.
And then, you know, it seemingly,it, it was if seemingly, you know,
uh, she had, uh, the doctor hadthought she had actually passed away
the next day only to only for hernot to have actually passed away.
(54:18):
And so it, um, and so the, youknow, she's, she's alive right
now and so the, the family, youknow, kind of gathered again.
Wow.
And was just like, wow.
We have like, in some ways.
And we don't know how much timewe have left with you, right?
But we know that we sort of have areset with you in some ways, right?
Hmm.
We have a renewed relationship, right?
(54:40):
And so how do we take that timenow with this, with having let go
of this hurt and having let go ofthe pain that we cause each other?
How do we live now?
Right?
And I don't know, you know, it.
I'm not a woo person, as you know,but I thought just that being
a great metaphor for right now.
Right.
(55:00):
Of like, what, what can we do, youknow, in terms of our own inner sort of
interpersonal relationships when we'veforgiven people or people have forgiven
us, and how do we then proceed to livelife once we're no longer caring, um,
you know, grudges and pettiness and,and pain, and how do we, you know,
how do we approach life after that?
(55:21):
Right.
Given sort of, mm-hmm.
Grace and, um, so I don't know.
I've been, I've been thinking aboutthat, um, you know, over the last few
days and, uh, you know, if nothingelse that just, um, I don't know.
It's, it's a nice story.
I.
Nora Kenworthy (55:36):
Yeah.
Marcus Harrison Green (55:36):
Anyhow,
Nora Kenworthy (55:37):
it reminds me so much of our conversation with
Dean Spade last week about repair.
Um, yeah.
And how important that workis, um, but also that new
chances come along all the time.
Marcus Harrison Green (55:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's the, I, I think, you know,somebody sewed me once, like, you
live long enough, you know, life willgive you the grace of second and,
and sometimes third chances, right.
You just have to be, uh,uh, be attuned to the.
So anyhow.
Well, on that note, I will go,you know, before I sound start
(56:11):
sounding too much like Brene Brownyesterday, I'll, on that note, we
will go ahead and I will read us out.
Thank you for joining us for anotherepisode of In the Meanwhile, as always, a
huge shout out to our Sharp Ear producer,Jessica, part now, and to the musical
genius, Aham a Luo for our show music.
You can find and follow us on yourfavorite podcast platform or on
(56:35):
YouTube, Instagram, our Blue Skynew episodes drop every Friday.
And until then, we'llsee you in the meanwhile.
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