Ep 7: Karam Dana | To Stand With Palestine - In the Meanwhile

Episode Transcript
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Karam Dana (00:00):
Palestine is at the heart of American politics.

(00:02):
Whether you like it or not, it'sat the heart of freedom of speech.
It is at the heart of anythingin relation to due process.
It is in relation to theseparation of powers.
It is in relation to the very liberty thatAmericans hold so dear to their heart.

Nora Kenworthy (00:23):
Welcome back to another episode of, in the
Meanwhile, I'm Nora Kenworthy.

Marcus Harrison Green (00:28):
And I'm Marcus Harrison Green.
You know, Nora, somehow, some way we'veclawed our way through yet another
week of unhinged headlines, soulsucking discourse and policy decisions
that make you wonder if they werecrowdsourced from the pits of hail.

Seriously, somehow we are still here.
I was gonna compare it to arollercoaster, but I'm actually not
sure there have been a lot of ups.
It's mostly just terrifyingdrops over and over again.

Yeah.
And you know, we're noteven talking six flags here.
We're talking about some jankyass death trap at a county fair
rollercoaster, where the safetybar is literally just a suggestion.

So true.
Although I, there's a sick part ofme that really loves county fairs and
they're, they're deadly rollercoasters,um, overpriced, uh, death traps in all.
Um, it's one of myfavorite parts of summer.

Yes.
Well, I have to say, speaking ofoverpriced death traps, um, we
have Gaza, which is basically whathappens when the empire writes the
rules, funds the weapons, and thenacts shocked at the body count.

That is quite a segue.

Yeah.
There was really no, no.
Easy way into that.
It's just basically theconversational equivalent of a DJ
pulling the ox chord, mid banger.
It's, it's a total vibe kill.
I get it.
But also, there's just no cheeky way totee up what we're about to dive into.
It's heavy.
It's all too real.
And you know, we're talking today aboutthe political and humanitarian crisis

(02:02):
in Palestine and how US solidaritywith Palestinians has only grown
particularly over the past few years

and the genocide and Gaza over the past few years.
Like others, before it trulydefies adequate description.
It goes beyond language,um, in its horrors.
We've all had to bear witness to it on ourcell phones, on our social media feeds.

Yeah.
And for some of us, even at our dinnertables, I, uh, yeah, I think I've shared
with our listeners before that, uh.
My partner is Jewish, and there'sdefinitely been some, shall we say,
uh, temperature rising conversationsthat she's, that I've been privy
to with between her and her family.
Um, yeah.

(02:48):
Goodness.
And ultimately though, Nora, I meanthe we, the US here is just so heavily
implicated in all this, and not justas Israel Staunchest Ally, but as
a major, major funder of this war.
The US gives more aid to Israel thanany other country around the world.
And even as Doge was decimating otherforeign aid programs, the US was

(03:10):
committing more aid to the Israelibacked and very highly controversial
Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, RGHF.
Even as we record this, hundredsof gaza's have been gunned down at
food distribution sites run by GHF.

Yeah.
And so it's.
I think in that context, it'sunderstandable then that many Americans
have very strong feelings about theirown government's role in this conflict.
Um, and it's a role that keeps growing.
Um, on the other hand, supportfor a ceasefire has been rapidly
growing among, uh, the US public.

(03:49):
Even as students, academics,writers, everyday people have faced
increasingly targeted persecutionfor expressing pro-Palestinian
or even just anti genocide views.
It's a lot.

No, it is a lot.
And uh, that's why we are particularlyexcited to have a guest with us today
who can help us make sense of allthis and whose recent book offers
some light in very dark times andjust might keep you away from the
ketamine for just one more hour.
So, yeah.
No promises on that with you.

It is a distinct honor, um, to have my friend and
colleague Caram Donna with us today.
Caram is the Alison McGregor distinguishedProfessor of Excellence and transformative
research, and the founding director ofthe American Muslim Research Institute
at the University of Washington.
Bothell Karam is a PalestinianAmerican who was born in the city of
Al Halil in Haran in the West Bank.

(04:55):
His research examines how race,religion, economics, and politics, shape
identities and political orientationsin the Middle East and the us.
He's the author of a gorgeous newbook titled To Stand with Palestine,
transnational Resistance and PoliticalEvolution in the United States.
Kram, thank you so much for spending timetoday talking about this important topic.

Karam Dana (05:15):
Thank you for having me.

Yeah, so for a very long time, Palestine has often been
referred to as a question as in thePalestine question, or as in the title
of a famous book by Edward Saed, whichyou mentioned the question of Palestine,
and I think in some very powerful ways.
As I was reading your book, I wasthinking about how you are showing
that Palestine is increasingly also ananswer to questions that we have here

(05:40):
in the United States and elsewhere.
Questions like, what is resistanceto settler colonialism look like?
Or what is the true test ofsolidarity in humanity in our times?
So I guess.
When you started writing this book,what questions were you hoping that it
would begin answering, in particularfor Americans who are thinking
about Palestine and Israel and theirrelationships to this conflict.

Karam Dana (06:02):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much for having me.
Um, I'm delighted to, to sharesome of my thoughts today.
Um, and it's, uh, uh, I mean the,the interesting thing about this book
is that it, it really talks aboutnot only Palestine as a geography
per se, but rather as an idea.
In addition.
And there's a, an identityassociated with the word Palestine.

(06:23):
Uh, sure it's geography defined, but itis now has become transnational in terms
of its nature that, so that's the firstpart, which, you know, I get into the book
detailing some, what does it mean to havetransnational identity as Palestinian?
What is the Palestiniantransnational identity?
And I think this can actuallybe, uh, used to describe a number

(06:43):
of, um, diaspora communities.
And I've lived in spaces that are notnecessarily within the geography in
which they define their identity by.
Um, but the interesting thing here,um, in addition to this, I also think
the case of Palestine for the past 77years and counting, um, is really a
classic case of settler colonialism.

(07:05):
And, and oftentimes there's aquestion in terms of how historical
fact can be distorted or half I.
Half a fact can be in fact used to, uh,paint and kind of describe an entire
narrative that is not entirely accurate.
Um, and I think part of the problem isthat we find when it gets to Palestine.
A lot of these scenarios really have takenroots, uh, uh, quite deeply in terms of

(07:30):
how Western society sees and views thequestion of Palestine and or Israel.
I mean, I say, and or Israel.
Because when we talk aboutPalestine, we're talking about
Israel, uh, Israel after 1948.
And when we talk about Israel andintentionally try to not talk about
Palestine, we're in fact also talkingabout Palestine Two are two sides of the
same coin, whether you like it or not.
And the intentional erasureeffectively becomes in by itself

(07:54):
heightening the absence of a people aheightened, an absence of an identity.
So speaking of heightened, I think in thesense settler colonialism, highest levels
of settler colonialism can be observedand studied and looked at and described,
and really, like, it cannot be as clear asthat, uh, in the case of Palestine, right?

(08:16):
So I think.
We're able to understand systems ofoppression in ways that are a lot more
complicated and a lot more nuanced.
If we look at Palestine, I mean, mm-hmm.
I'm gonna use the exampleof Anahi coats, for example.
You know, Anahi Coats was.
A Zionist.
I mean, he always, I mean, 2014 he wrotea book about the case for reparations su

(08:37):
suggesting that the return of, of Jewishpeople to their ancestor homelands, which
of course there's something, somethingabout that, that we have to, to discuss.
But, but him making such an assumption,he says, this is a perfect reparation
model for African Americans.
And a lot of people had, that was 2014.
It took about nine, 10 years.

(08:57):
Um.
Uh, for him to really change his views.
In particular, it was a trip in2023, in the summer of 2023, where
he went and visited the West Bank.
Actually, he visited my town kil.
And, you know, that actually madeit into the message as you know.
But, but, but in addition to that, um,it, uh, you know, him being someone who,

(09:20):
um, who has talked about oppression,he has talked about the inequality of
different minority groups in the UnitedStates, but in particular, of course,
we're talking about marginalized,marginalized communities, uh, uh,
particularly African American communityin the US and the history that we've
had for a long time of racialization,subjugation, dehumanization.
He saw that, I mean, he basicallysays, what I saw here is simply, um,

(09:44):
uh, you know, the Jim Crow health.
It was, it was very clear.
So I think in a sense, the case ofPalestine can be utilized and has been
utilized as a way for us to understandsystems of oppression in a broader sense.
Now, when you mention the word solidarityhere, and I think this is quite an
interesting thing, is that when wethink about solidarity, we talk about

(10:05):
comparisons, we talk about systems,again, systems of oppression, ways
through which, uh, uh, resistance againstsuch systems of oppression takes place,
whether it's in the United States,Ferguson, for example, whether it's in.
In, uh, uh, south Santa LA forexample, or, or whether it's in, in,
in other impoverished communities.

(10:25):
De we talk about, we can talk, I can giveyou a list of cities and towns where it's
systematically, uh, have the politicsof those places really marginalized, uh,
uh, you know, a wholesale communities,uh, in particular, of course, uh,
uh, the African American community.
And I think all oppressed people areable to identify with one another.

(10:46):
And this is, for example, I'mgonna end on this, is there's
something about the fact that, youknow, the global South has always
understood the question of Palestine.
Um, since day one.
And, and it's not a surprise thatthe global South understood and
continues to understand the questionof Palestine, uh, because the global
South was pretty much colonized andthey understand what colonialism means.

(11:06):
The legacy of colonialism makes people inthe global South understand this better.
Uh, obviously it is the Western quoteunquote, the western world as we call it.
And again, former colonizers and, andoffsprings of former colonizers in
terms of state politics, um, are theones who are now operating in a, uh,
in a way where they don't effectivelyunderstand the struggle of the people.

(11:30):
So,

yeah, act, you had brought up, uh, Tasi Coates and I,
um, you know, wanna give up some loveto another black intellectual, uh,
mark Lamont Hill, who, uh, had a bookcalled Accept Palestine, I believe.
And, uh, when he talks about howeven in progressive movements
and so forth for the longest timein America, um, they could see.

(11:53):
Oppression, they could see, um, youknow, domination and colonialism
in everything except right.
The, the Palestine situation.
And so I want to ask you this, like, whydid it take so long, particularly in, um,
the United States for folks to wake upto, you know, to fully wake up, I should

(12:13):
say, to what was going on in Palestine?

Karam Dana (12:17):
Thank you, Marcus.
This is a really interesting question,and I, and you mentioned, uh, mark
Lamont Hills with, uh, uh, MitchellNik is, is his, is, uh, co-author of
the book, uh, except for Palestine.
Right?
And I think the interesting thing, thispep, except for Palestine, that's a
term that has been coined about a decadeor so ago, um, to describe the fact
that people are progressive, as you'vementioned, um, with regards to really most

(12:40):
progressive issues except for Palestine.
I have attributed this, um, to a numberof things, particularly I think the forces
of how Orientalism has operated deeplyin terms of how the United States works.
There's become a cultural kindof affect to it effectively, even
in the most progressive circles.
Even in, in terms of in, in spaceswhere people want to understand more.

(13:04):
They're just unable to because ofthe lack of a variety of things.
And I, and I, as in the book, I kind ofhighlight the changes that have taken
place over, uh, uh, uh, you know, 25, 30years or thereabouts, that have allowed
more space for these conversations.
Now going back to theprogressive movement, right?
The progressive movement in the UnitedStates also includes white feminism.

(13:24):
Okay.
We also understand that there areissues with how white feminism
operates in terms of thinking aboutin within transnational spaces.
So I think this is, this isone way to to to say this, is
that within the progressivemovement, we still have issues.
We have problems, we have incompleteideas with regards to equality.
And I also highlight, um,another book actually out.

(13:46):
Uh, uh, it, it's calledTolerance is a Wasteland.
And that book is by, um, an amazingscholar, uh, Ari Mai, uh, from UCLA
and Sari Makdisi happens to be, uh,the nephew of Edwards I, by the way.
Um, and in which basically he actuallyde digs deeper into the conversation

(14:06):
as to why the progressive movementshave, uh, uh, have really neglected
pals and provides really interesting,more, more interesting and more, uh,
deep co answers to, to this question.
And it really has to do with, witha variety of different cultural
rationales that are really behind it.
I also, I mean, in terms of technicalthings, education is quite limited in

(14:27):
the us you know, I mean, in the UnitedStates, we don't necessarily, social
studies is something rather limited.
It doesn't really take us into the depththat is needed that other countries have,
you know, so I. Um, I can go on and on,but I think I also wanna, the, the last
thing I wanna mention in relation tothis is that anyone that has taken and
continues to take the side of Palestiniansin terms of simple justice to just call

(14:49):
for Palestinian justice has been labeled.
And more or less, and again, I'm not, I'mkind of somewhat generalizing here, has
been labeled as an anti-Semitic, right?
And we understand the historicalconnection to, uh, the suffering
of the Jewish people in.
Um, but the thing here that I wannahighlight is that it's becoming, um,
much more of a phenomena whereby, youknow, people are accused of things

(15:12):
that they themselves are not, andpeople are accused of being antisemitic
and they themselves are Jewish.
They themselves are, uh,either Holocaust survivors or
children of Holocaust survivors.
And so, so there's that pieceof the conversation as well.
And there's another layer to this, isthat how the Jewish American community
for the longest time in the US hasbeen on the site of social justice.

(15:34):
I mean, there's an ethic, a Jewish ethic.
Known as Tikun Allam, which ishealing the world or fixing the
world within Hebrew tradition.
Now, the interesting thing about, about,about this is that it really, you find
that taking shape in action within theJewish community at large, but when
it gets to the question of Palestine,you find that it's rather limited.

(15:55):
Um, uh, unfortunately, but it'sincreasingly becoming much more prevalent.
So during the civil rights movement,for example, the Jewish American
community played a significant rolein, uh, in making, uh, uh, these laws
pass, obviously, but also that pressurethat was needed, a critical mass.
Uh, Jewish Americans were part of that,a very much part of this conversation.

(16:16):
So those who are are being accusedof being antisemitic because
of their views on Palestine.
They see a con conflict in their minds.
So if I were to stand in this, it meansthat I stand against Jewish people and
once I stand against Jewish people,which I don't, you know, so it becomes
kind of a, a moral dilemma, um, ratherthan something that is, uh, uh, a moral

(16:39):
dilemma that is, that is complicated.
That in fact it should be a lot lesscomplicated than it's, so I think this
is, uh, something that has plagued theprogressive movement in the United States.
Again, not only in relation toPalestine, feminism and other issues,
but, um, but I think, uh, ultimately,ultimately we're, I'm hoping, and I'm
sure we all hope, is that equality willhave no, uh, you know, we'll have no

(17:01):
preconditions, let's put it that way.

Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you for talking about thatweaponization of, of complexity
that it definitely, I, I think is ahallmark of what's going on right now.

So, uh, Keram, as I was reading this book, and also admiring its
incredibly beefy notes section, this isone of the, the most heavily researched
booked that I've, I've seen in a while.
But it feels a bit like a bookthat might have taken a lifetime
to write in some ways, right?
It's obviously bound up in yourown personal history, but also
in decades of scholarship thatyou've done on these topics.

(17:34):
And I don't envy you also trying to finishthis book in the wake of all the events
that have followed October 7th, 2023.
Um, but you write in the preface tothe book that a lot of what you've,
you've written there, those trendsthat you're observing, that you're
studying in the book, really were.

(17:55):
Only reinforced by the eventsand aftermath of October 7th.
So can you help our listeners understanda little bit more about what those
trends are that you're trying tokind of highlight in the book and
how the sort of transnational uh,solidarity with Palestine has changed?
Over the last few decades.

Karam Dana (18:13):
Thank you.
Uh, it's basically, you know,that, that question is the entire
book, the answer, so bear with me.
So I finished the book before October 7th.
Okay.
October 1st is when I actuallyfinished it and I sent the manuscript.
Oh God.
Um, but thing is like, and I was like,okay, is there're changing and so on.
But like, what I noticed happening wasthe idea of the escalation that I meant

(18:36):
that, that, that I kind of discussed anddebated and, and kind of highlighted.
Um, and I noticed that and in the sense,you know, what I, what I had seen, what I
had envisioned, you know, was reinforcedby what I had seen in the sense that,
you know, um, the escalation of thefight, how mainstream conversations
push against new, uh, new voices.

(19:00):
I also wanna say like, ultimately.
The more you push against the mainstream,the mainstream will have to change.
So the, the book really was motivatedby, uh, you know, certain observations
that I've had, as you can imagine.
And, and, and the fact, again,it's, it's my positionality,
my own personal identity.
But I also am a scholar of Palestinein the region and the United States.

(19:20):
So I study race and ethnicity in thecontext of the US and politics, right?
On the one hand, um, uh, theracialization of African Americans,
racialization of Latinos, Latinxcommunities, uh, racialization of
Arabs and Muslims on the one hand.
But I also study Palestine in the region,and I do public opinion surveys there.
And I do, you know, uh, interviews.
So, so in a sense,bridging those two worlds.

(19:41):
Had I not done these two kind ofscholarship levels, I would not have
been able to think and conceive of,or write and successfully, I mean,
these ideas are there, but like toactually execute ideas successfully
is a whole different challenge.
So, um.
So I have been perplexed, again, thisis kind of the motivation to the region.
Why is it that Americans don't understandthe plight of the Palestinians?

(20:02):
They could easily understand the plightof the Ukrainians, for example, in
contemporary times, but they don'tunderstand the question of Palestine.
They are, they're, it's easily,uh, it's easily possible to
sympathize with the underdog in thecontext of American culture, but
not when it gets to Palestinians.
Why?
And I was, I've longbeen perplexed by this.
I mean, of course, the simpleanswer is that there's Orientalism

(20:24):
and Orientalism is deeply rooted.
Again, Orientalism is the lens or therather, the distorted lens through which
the West has traditionally looked at theArab, uh, Arab world, a speaking world.
Islam, Muslims and the Middle East.
And in a sense it's kind of conflatingdifferent identities and in, in very

(20:45):
ambiguous geographies to speak aboutpeoples that are not actually real,
like unison invented a historic concept.
Uh, but Orientalism is deeplyrooted in, in American society.
It continues to be.
But then all of a sudden we startednoticing these things happening, right?
Um, and I'm in particular,I'm talking about 2000 tens.
What, what has happened, you know, peoplestarted talking about Palestine slowly.

(21:09):
Now, this isn't to say that Palestine andPalestinians have not been talked about
in the, in the US for example, and again,I'm just also talking here specifically
about the United States, right?
It's not that Palestine, Palestinehas not been talked about.
There, there have been amazing, uh,people who have talked very prolifically
about Palestine as early as the 1930s.
Like, I mean, I, I mean, it'sthere, but how, how did it make

(21:29):
it more into the public sphere ina way that it hadn't in the past?
Um, and there are factors.
The, the first is the internet, of course.
I mean, the internet provided content.
There's more content, um, that thatis, that you can actually reach.
Then in addition to this, theinternet based types of platforms,
like social media platforms, allowan opportunity for mobilization for

(21:52):
people to find each other and mobilize.
So that allowed that to happen.
And then the more, the more presenceon the, uh, uh, social media platforms
that allows for some sort of, again,pushing the status quo, um, pushing
the status quo in a way that, uh,that it hadn't been done in the past.
I also wanna mention somethingthat had taken place within

(22:15):
American society at large.
Okay.
How the state and society havehad a break in the late 1990s,
in particular in Seattle.
Um, there was, um, the WTO protest,the World Trade Organization held
their first meeting in Seattle.
And the protest that, that, that ensued,um, really created a new form of, uh.

(22:36):
Protest, but also reaction toprotest in the context of the us.
So that was a moment where themilitarization of the police
became more legitimized.
Okay.
Soon after nine 11 took place.
I also wanna say, uh, uh, you know, the,the, the idea of militarization of the
police, um, it's not to say that thepolice had not used violence against
defenseless Americans in the past.

(22:57):
They have, I mean, we know thatin Philadelphia, a neighborhood
was bombed by the police.
We understand that.
We understand the civil rights movement,we understand the complexity of that.
I'm talking about about a structuraltransformation in terms of how police
departments have become more militarized.
There's a program within the AmericanFederal government where, um, police

(23:18):
departments can have some of kindof, um, military grade equipment
passed out from the military.
That existed from the mid 1990s, butit exacerbated after the WTO events
because there was a need, therewas a, an argument, oh, we need to
do that sort of work from now onto actually militarize the police.
The nine 11 happened and then thatexacerbated, but that created kind of

(23:40):
a, kind of a structural crack, if I may,between how the state versus people,
the, you know, the government versuspeople, how they saw each other, right?
The government saw people assuspects, of course, after nine 11.
You don't have to be a Muslim oran Arab to have been pulled aside
and harassed at airports per se.
But of course, uh, exponentiallyit's different when it gets to

(24:00):
different racial and ethnic groups.
Um, but in addition to this, uh, there'ssomething about how people started
seeing the state and the role of thestate people, more or less, and for the
lack of a better term, became a lot morepissed off in the years after nine 11.
Um, particularly.
Um, around the ability of the stateto get every piece of information

(24:23):
about your privacy has becomekind of more or less obsolete.
So people on the right and people onthe left, they really had a problem.
Remember the Occupy movement, forexample, this is, I mean, this movement
is attributed somewhat to the left becauseit's class based around, um, resources
and lack of resources for most 99%.

(24:43):
But on the other hand, you alsohave the Tea Party movement.
Who is all, who are also right wing,more or less, more conservative,
um, disposition with regardsto politics and society and so
on, who were also pissed off.
They saw the state as infringing ontheir, on their kind of rights and
their ability to do, to do what they,as individual Americans wanted to do.

(25:04):
And again, this is something, Imean of times I always think about
what are, what are some of thethings that piss Americans off?
It's the, it's, it's, uh,kind of wanting liberty.
The idea is that this is a very core,uh, the core value of Americans is to
say, oh, I get to, um, I want my liberty.
I want to be able to do what I want.
I don't want anybody's intervention.

(25:25):
Okay.
So, so that's another factor, youknow, the, the kind of militarization
of the police, the internet.
Um, but again, primarily, which I thinkwe all understand the significance
of how definitions with regards to.
Um, equity and inclusion started emergingin particular, obviously with regards

(25:46):
to the Black Lives Matter movementone, um, whereby the mobilization took
place, and I, and I and I play a heavyemphasis in, in the last decade or so
on how the Black Lives Matter movementhave really transformed conversations
and ideas within American societyto levels we had not seen before.

(26:07):
Now, in addition to the BlackLives MA Matter movement,
you also had the L-G-B-T-Q.
Rights and, you know, uh,same sex marriage and so on.
It, it wasn't a thing.
Now it's been 10 years,literally as a reset, I think.
So all I'm trying to say is that all ofthose things have really came together
to create a new definition of equity,uh, whereby it allows for the Palestinian

(26:27):
story to be heard and understood.
It's not only heard, but understood.
So there's something that needed totake place within American society
structurally, in order for theconversation to become, uh, better
understood by those who hear it.
And I think this is where it's at, uh,whereby how mobilization takes place in

(26:47):
the United States around social justicewhen you find Palestinian Americans who
have immigrated, uh, you know, second,third, fourth, almost fourth generation
of Palestinians living in the UnitedStates, are living in these communities
and understand the oppression that, uh,you know, that marginalized communities
are facing in other bipoc communities.
And they themselves now become part ofthe mobilization effort hand in hand

(27:12):
with black activists walking down thestreets and creating change effectively.
So I think in it's, it's, it's this,these are, these are some of the, the, the
factors that are really played a role in,in creating a transforming conversation.
Yeah.
Well, I, well, I

actually wanted to ask, you know,
just this morning I saw this.
Horrific image of a child,uh, starving and malnourished.
You, you could see their ribcage, um,in Gaza and things in Palestine for
Palestinians over the past few years havejust been indescribably horrific, right?

(27:47):
And in your book, you don't glossover that, and you don't gloss over
the decades of other histories ofsettler colonialistic violence.
But in many ways, this book alsotells an unexpectedly, uh, dare I say,
optimistic story about the historicalarc of attitudes towards Palestine.
So have you felt that shiftin your own life as well as a

(28:09):
Palestinian American and academic?

Karam Dana (28:13):
Thank you for that question, Marcus.
I think it's, um, it really kindof addresses a, or kind of deals
with a very important piece, right?
Palestine is a geography,one thing, right?
And then the transnationalpresence of Palestinians.
Right?
So let's talk a littlebit about, about Gaza.
I mean, the levels are.
Unprecedented.
I mean, the amount of, of destructionwe should all be, uh, horrified.

(28:38):
And I know a lot of us are horrified.
Oftentimes we move on with our livesand, and ignore the fact that there
are children, uh, who are dying blownto pieces, um, have inac, you know, no
access to food or, or, you know, water.
Um, and there's no, nothing safein terms of what looks like, um,
so this is, this is what settlercolonialism looks like, right?

(29:00):
I mean, the settler colonialism is the,is kind of the effort to replace an
entire population over a piece of land.
And, you know, again, I mean we cantalk about the historical reasons as to
why Gaza looks like it does now, but.
Gaza has always been, I mean, beforethe genocide that is taking place
in Gaza for almost two years now.
Right before that, we had, uh, whatis described as Gaza was described

(29:25):
as the largest open air prison inthe world for, for a couple decades.
Right.
I mean, my point is, yeah, the ideais it didn't start, uh, in 2023
then it didn't start a decade ago.
It, it's been around for a while.
Right.
But one of the things that I'venoticed in terms of the things, you
know, why Americans don't see thehumanity of Palestinians, right?
Why don't they understand whythey're not sympathetic to it?

(29:48):
One of those thingsthat I noticed is that.
Um, the more Israel commits somethingthat is so horrendous, okay?
It, it increases the possibilitiesof a pushback from those who are
against those policies, okay?
And over time, thatcontinues to accelerate.
So, uh, you know, this is kind of theacceleration that I talk about in the

(30:10):
book, where it's an intensifying andaccelerating fight by those who are
pushing for equal rights with regardsto Palestine, other bipoc people, and
so on and so forth, on the one hand.
But then on the other hand, thosewho are preserving the status
quo have an uh, uh, kind of aninherent desire to keep it look.
I mean, am I optimistic?

(30:30):
Am I, I don't know.
The way I would say it is, Iam out of my pessimism, I see
optimism, if that makes sense.
Okay.
Out of my extreme pessimism, I might,might add out of my extreme pessimism.
I see some optimism.
Okay.
You may need to trademark that.
That's a nice line.
Yeah, someone else will probablydo it, but it's all good.

(30:53):
Uh, I'm, I'm sure if, if a capitalistis listening to this podcast, there's
an opportunity for you anyway.
So, um, so look, the story of Palestineis an never ending story of destruction,
never ending story of violence.
And I also wanna highlight the fact thatPalestinian society was intentionally
destroyed and, and dismembered in 1948.

(31:14):
So that intentional dismembereddismemberment of Palestinian society
led to the creation of so many littlepockets of Palestinian societies and
communities around the world Now.
Those communities havecome together effectively.
Even just even, even if they'renot physically talking to
each other, intellectually,they're speaking to each other.
They're talking about displacement,they're talking about dispossession.

(31:37):
They're talking about who they are asa community that has been pushed out
in their homes and so on and so forth.
And now those communities, as I mentionedearlier, they're rooted in these new
local communities that they've foundin these societies, and they're able to
speak the language of those societies.
So there's agency to be givento Palestinians who live
outside of historic Palestine.

(31:57):
Okay.
So there's something about violence,as I mentioned earlier, in the second
Intifada, which started in 2000, itbrought about up to then, unfortunately,
violence had gotten a lot worse.
It brought in 2000 kind of new levelsof violence whereby you had Israeli
tanks driving in the streets of theWest Bank, in particular in April, 2002.

(32:20):
Um, you had tanks rolling down thestreets and the level of destruction
and death and, uh, was, was reallyunprecedented in such a way previously.
And again, I don't wanna onlyjust highlight this, like it's
in a sense, it, it took us to newlevels that we hadn't seen before.
That and a number of civil societyleaders in Palestine, they came together.

(32:42):
And they said, look, um, we cannoteffectively only resist in such a
way whereby, you know, you resistinside the West Bank in the Gaza
Strip or inside Israel 1948, right?
You really have to think about thisas an external issue as well, that
other people of conscious shouldexert efforts that will pressure

(33:02):
Israel to do or not do certain things.
Right?
And they issued a kind of a callfor boycott, which is known as
boycott divestment in sanctions BDS.
Right?
Effectively that was, that emerged inthe early two thousands as a necessity,
not necessarily by choice, effectively.
Um, and.
Be it B-D-S-B-D, you know, the, the,um, uh, boycott and divestment sanctions

(33:25):
movement took a life of its own.
Like, I mean, it's, it has taken,it's not, it's decentralized.
It's not, there's notone person or two people.
It can be an individual, uh, uh,effort that a person decides to
not buy a certain product thathelps support Israeli occupation.
Someone decides to boycott an institutionthat has connections to Israeli, uh,
uh, military and so on and so forth.

(33:47):
Um, or company for that matter.
So, um, so it was out ofnecessity that that took place.
Um, and, and, and look, the, the,the way I see it is that the more.
Push against these efforts, themore these efforts are gonna
find a new way to push back.
And that's again, another level ofacceleration that is taking place.

(34:07):
There's an acceleration of violenceand ex there's an acceleration of
a, of a narrative, uh, counteringnarratives that is taking place
and taking roots in, in terms ofhow, how the fight is taking place.
I mean, look, most, most, uh.
News channels in the United States, andwe can talk about the media for, I, I read

(34:29):
about it, but like we can talk about it.
We all understand what the mediadoes these days effectively.
Is that oftentimes it looks more like,uh, partly, mostly entertainment,
partly some sort of news.
And the rest is justcommercials, you know?
So it's just, it, you, youare meeting missing a lot.
We're missing a lot from whatis happening in the world.
And if that's all you show people,that's all will people know.

(34:50):
And then when people are able to seewhat doesn't exist in the traditional
sense, meaning in internet, socialmedia, and so on, they start formulating
their own ideas for in a different way.
Right?
Um, and there's something to, for example.
To mainstream conversations.
I mean, there's something powerfulabout the fact that a mainstream actor

(35:11):
and or an actress or, and, you know,someone who's a celebrity, there's
something very powerful about themsaying something about Palestine.
Okay, miss Rachel, who happens to bea Jewish woman, for example, who has a
child, um, took care of a, of a child,kind of a a, an injured Palestinian young
girl, um, brought her on her show andshe basically had a lot of hate mm-hmm.

(35:36):
Directed at her, but she's pushing back.
And the idea is that the more youknow, the idea is Palestinians aren't
going anywhere and advocates ofPalestinians aren't going anywhere.
Okay?
The more you push against it, the moreit'll eventually figure out ways to do it.
So I think once things hit themainstream, um, they become much more
prevalent in public, uh, in the publicdiscourse, in the public sphere.

(35:57):
Um, and, and in some ways, again,honestly, Marcus, it's, it's hard to
be optimistic, but I think, mm-hmm.
These are kind of the momentsof optimism to say like,
okay, nothing stands stagnant.
Nothing remains stagnant.
Things change over time, andit's not a one-time thing.
Ultimately, equality willprevail, uh, everywhere.

Thanks.
I am really glad that you broughtup BDS because as someone who's also
worked in South Africa, I have adeep appreciation for how important
boycotts and sanctions were in thedismantling of South African Apartheid.
Um, in your book though, you also lookat a spate of new attempts at both

(36:38):
federal and state levels to actuallymake efforts to boycott or divest
from Israel, even on a personal basis,illegal, which I just find wild.
Um, and I think it reflects what you'resaying here about sort of how it's, it's
a constantly escalating, um, conflict.
Uh, and, and so I guess I'm wondering.

(37:01):
What do you see as the future of effortslike the BDS movement, um, and how
will they continue to be effective?
Um, do we need new tools or dowe need to outmaneuver the laws
that are being put in place?
Like where, what does the kind of frontierof US activism on behalf of Palestine

(37:26):
and Palestinian equality, what doesthat actually look like going forward?

Karam Dana (37:31):
That's a, that's a great question.
I mean, I think, um, I. The,the thing that I wanna highlight
here is that resistance cantake so many different forms.
Okay?
There's, we oftentimes call, uh, you know,this is form of, of legitimate resistance.
This is illegitimate resistance.
We can talk about, um, thisis violent resistance and
this is nonviolent resistance.

(37:52):
Oftentimes we highlight inAmerican society the significance
and importance and, and the, themoral, um, uh, position of Right.
Having, you know, um,having, there's like a moral

hierarchy of Exactly, exactly.
In

Karam Dana (38:05):
terms of, in terms of, uh, nonviolent, right?
BDS is an nonviolent movement.
I mean, in a sense, like, you know, ifthat's, if that's something to be, to
be appreciated, to have a movement thatis based on, um, non-violence, thinking
about equality, all of those things arewithin BBS, and I'm not, I, again, I'm
just, I'm just describing what BBS is.

(38:25):
I'm describing what it attempts todo when it's trying to accomplish.
Um, so the, on the one hand, two, I think.
Look, um, the fact that there are lawsthat are being passed, um, uh, I mean
now we have basically virtually, uh,most states in the United States have
legislations that, uh, ban, not ban,but in a sense to say like there's a

(38:47):
level of, um, punishment that one would,would have to endure if they support
BDS boycott, divestment in sections.
So, lemme give you an example.
In, in Texas, in the great state of Texas,for example, there was a moment that, um.
If you, um, if you give a talk, forexample, any, any state money, uh,

(39:09):
you would have to sign a form sayingthat I will not boycott Israel,
or I do not support boycottingIsrael to receive for any reason.
Like, I mean, if you're a biologistgoing to talk about, you know, uh,
what biologists talk about, um, so, youknow, to give a talk at a conference.
There was a hurricane member a few yearsago, and I mentioned this in the book,

(39:31):
uh, new, where if you wanted to receivekind of an aid kit from the city, you
needed, I mean, now you're talking aboutpeople, like people who are of that city.
Um, they needed to sign a form thatsays they're not gonna boycott Israel.
Okay?
So my point is like, this canget extremely, you know, hairy.

(39:53):
To put it mildly, itmakes no sense at times.
It makes no sense at all, infact, and especially that.
BDS and again, efforts to boycott ingeneral are seen and talked about and
described as, uh, anti-Semitic tacticsand this is, and so on and so forth.
But the interesting thing to me isthat the ones who are spearheading

(40:13):
a lot of, uh, BDS, uh, campaigns,um, locally, nationally, a
lot of them have to be Jewish.
I mean, right.
How, how do you reconcile that?
How can one be j In fact, some ofthem are in fact rabbis, right?
Like, I mean, right.
Like, but if they come for BDS assuch a way to ban certain things,
they're coming for other, other,um, other groups and other issues.

(40:37):
So let me give you an example.
Um, in some states, uh, the lawor the kind of the bills that
were used to enact laws againstPDS have been used as a template.
I. To ban boycotting companiesthat fire employees because
of their sexual orientation.

(40:58):
Or, or, and also, or, or, or, ordeclining, for example, medical
care because of their, uh, um,position on, uh, on abortion.
So, and also weapons manufacturers likeyou cannot boycott weapons manufacturing.
Just, if you wanna do businesswith us, you cannot boycott
those weapons manufacturers.
So using this as a template.

(41:18):
Is dangerous.
So Palestine is at the heart of Americanpolitics whether you like it or not.
Mm-hmm.
It's at the heart of freedom of speech.
It is at the heart of anythingin relation to due process.
It is in relation to theseparation of powers.
It is in relation to the very liberty thatAmericans hold so dear to their hearts.
Right.
That we all hold very dear to ourhearts, the liberties and, uh, that we

(41:41):
don't want anyone to tell us what to do.
Well, as far as I'm concerned, if youneed to deal with that, you must address
how you talk and think about Palestine.
So Palestine is at theheart of everything.
Even if those who don't knowanything about Palestine, um,
ultimately they'll figure it out.
Especially of course, that the UnitedStates government has supported Israel
and its practices for decades, and wecontinue to, we send weapons to them and

(42:03):
we use weapons and then, you know, they'repeople who have been proven over and over
and over and over again to be innocent.
Civilians have been blown to pieces.
Yeah.
I mean, how do you describe 55,000 peoplebeing blown to pieces, um, and a good
portion of whom are children, you know?
Yeah.
So, so my point is, you know, whatform of resistance do we have?

(42:24):
I actually think people haveto pick up the phone, speak.
Um, people can protest.
There are things that we continue tobe able to do, and I think, uh, boycott
is something, uh, from my perspective,is a very significant right to anybody
as a, you know, even as an, as a,regardless of where you stand on the
political spectrum, right or left.

(42:46):
Boycott is something that reallyspeaks to your freedom of speech and
freedom of assembly and freedom inyour ability to do something or not.
So I just wanna say like,when people look, I wrote the
book, I'm just gonna say this.
I wrote the book because I have been.
I think you mentioned this,it's, it's been tough.
It took a long time.
Yes.
There's an emotional toll that I hadto exert as a Palestinian American

(43:10):
myself, um, as someone who seesthe racialization of my community
and my people day in and day out.
Um, sure.
I'm core unquote white presenting,and, and I obviously that's
privilege, quote unquote.
Right.
Um, until people say, what is your name?
You know, and then I say,okay, my name is Karara.

(43:31):
And people are, oh, wait,wait, wait, wait, wait.
What is that?
That's not, that's not a white name.
Right.
That's not a white or black name or some,the familiarity of what it might sound.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Um, and then there's, there's this,and I'm also, I'm an immigrant as well.
So to navigate those spaces asit is, there's layers and layers
of racialization that take place.
Right.
And as I said, I've never met, um.

(43:55):
Personally, I've never met someonewho happens to be black who didn't
understand the question of Palestine.
Never.
Okay.
I never met someone who, um, whohas, you know, who, who is belongs
to a Bipoc community or marginalizedcommunities, uh, uh, unable to speak
or understand the issue of Palestine.

(44:16):
It's simply because wespeak to each other.
We're able to understand the, um,the suffering of other people.
Um, not always, uh, a hundredpercent full understanding, but I
think that brings people together.
It's no surprise, it's absolutely nosurprise that, for example, African
Americans understand the experienceof people in Halil, my town, okay?

(44:37):
Mm-hmm.
It's, it's, my town istortured, my town is divided.
There's like, you know, uh, there'san H one and H two H one Haran one,
which is under the authority of thePalestinian Authority, which effectively
doesn't have any much authority.
And then H two, it's where settlerslive in the heart of the old city,
right next to, uh, the BohemianMosque where Abraham is buried and,

(44:59):
you know, a few other, uh, biblicalfigures and, and significant people
to, you know, for religious reasons.
But my point is like, there's suchtorture that exists whereby segregation
is there, apartheid is there, and youcan see it, and you can witness it,
and you can touch it, and you can smellit like it's, it's, it's there, right?

(45:20):
So there's a reason why.
African Americans understand thesuffering of my town, um, understand
the suffering of the Palestiniansand living under apartheid.
There's redlining, there's, you know,I can go on and get down the list.
I mean, you know, we understandthe, the, the, the, you know, the
kind of the common experience.
Effectively, though the languageand the culture is different, but

(45:42):
then there's these systems thatreally continue to push against, uh,
communities that are marginalizedbecause those systems cannot exist.
If there are not peoplewho are marginalized.
There's the hierarchy, and ifthere's nobody at the bottom of the
hierarchy, there's no hierarchy.
Hmm.

Yeah, I, so I do wanna ask, and, and this is with the risk
of me sounding like a, a, a non-blackperson, whenever there's conversations
about black people and they're like,well, some of my best friends are black.
Um, I, uh, my partner is, is Jewish,and she's often so frustrated by the
media in terms of the erasure right,of, of Jewish allyship with the

(46:21):
Palestinian cause and how so often.
Uh, for instance, she had justbrought up the other day that, uh,
I believe Bill Ackman, the, um,the, uh, gosh, was it he hedge fund
manager or private equity person?
Uh, he's very rich inNew York, I'll say that.
And he, uh, he was saying that withthe, um, the Democratic primary

(46:41):
victory of Ani that, oh, you know, uh.
All Jews need to get out of, I'mparaphrasing, but he basically said,
all Jews need to get out of New YorkCity because it's no longer safe.
And then, you know, there was a, afew folks who responded and it was
like, well, we, we, we can't get outbecause we were door knocking for
him actually as, as Jewish people.
And so I wanna ask you, what do you thinkis the reason that there is such erasure,

(47:06):
at least in mainstream media, of Jewishallyship, uh, with Palestinian causes?

Karam Dana (47:11):
That's a really interesting question.
I think you, you reallyraise a very important point.
There've always been Jewishpeople who are against the
practices of the state of Israel.
I'm not gonna even get into the, theZionism piece of this, which I can,
but I think let's just talk about thesimple practices of the state of Israel.
There's always, always havebeen people against it.
Okay.
In fact, you know, um, we go, uh, Imean, Albert Einstein, I mean Albert

(47:35):
Einstein was against the practice ofthe state of Israel and he was just
saying like, this is a bad idea.
And if, if we are to face a, a, you know,a, a predicament as Jewish people in, in,
in the future, it is because of some ofus, you know, so highlighted that, right?
The change will have to comefrom within the Jewish community.
One, one of the changes thatneed to come, if we are to reach

(47:55):
a moment of equality, right?
Let's put it that way, or how Palestinianstalked about without dehumanization.
When we start thinking about a gazenchild as equivalent morally speaking, and
in terms of the, the, the value of theirlives as a, an Israeli Jewish child, when
we start doing that, or to get to that,we need Jewish Americans in the context

(48:15):
of the United States to really pushagainst the hijacking of their identity.
If I may.
The identity gets hijackedfor political reasons.
Is this something that the JewishAmerican community would like to do?
And I'm not Jewish, uh, but I, I mean,it's funny you said at the risk of,
of sounding, you know, but I do haveJewish friends, as you can imagine.

(48:37):
Um, and the idea here is that a lotof those Jewish friends of mine, they
struggle with how that, uh, conversationis, is gonna have, is gonna happen.
And like, in a sense, they, they noticethere's a changing trend within the Jewish
American community because there needsto, this conversation is an absolute
necessity, an absolute necessity withinevery synagogue, within every community,

(49:00):
uh, whether you're conservative or not.
I mean, whether or not it's a goodidea to have the Israeli flag and
most synagogues needs to be thoughtof, is this a good idea or not?
Does your Jewishness, isyour Jewishness connected to.
Having an Israeli flagin your own synagogue?
That's a good questionwe ought to think about.
Right?
Um, does a country that has existed for 77years at the expense of people who became

(49:26):
homeless and dispossessed and refugeesand so on, is, is this something that you
would wanna identify with and, and kindof puts all your, for lack of a better
term, put all your eggs in one basketwith regards to this versus thinking
about Judaism as a very rich traditionculture that has existed for 3000 years?
So, I mean, and my point is like,to me it's a, it's a conversation

(49:48):
that needs to be had withinthe Jewish American community.
Now why does that eraser habit?
It's simply, well, there are a numberof reasons, but I'm gonna highlight one.
It has to do with the status quo.
I mean, you know, for the longesttime our government has really
presented Israel as it's our ally.
One way or another, like, you know, nomatter what we are, we see this today,

(50:09):
we see this today, we see it with.
Republican administration.
We see with democratic administrations, wesee it during the Kamala Harris campaign,
and we see it during the Trump campaign.
I mean, Trump started using theterm Palestinian as a, as a, a
derogatory, the derogatory term.
He called Chuck Schumer.
Oh, he's, he's Jewish, buthe's now a Palestinian.

(50:31):
He's a weak Palestinian calling him such,I mean, there's a level of dehumanization
that, like in, in a sense, it's like,wow, the term Palestine, Palestinian
is a derogatory term, but part ofthe problem is that it's eating up.
People are consuming those ideas andthey run with it, but this isn't new.
When John McCain was running for, uh,uh, as, as the Republican candidate

(50:56):
against, uh, Barack Hussein Obama.
He was asked, um, by a womanwho said, like, I heard that,
uh, Barack Obama was an Arab.
And, and, and, um, it scares me.
And then everyone started clapping.
He comes in, he says, no, no, no, no.
Look, look, he's a good man, okay?

(51:16):
We just happen to have disagreements.
So the idea is that an Arab, a Muslim,even, I mean, he's a Muslim, not
an Arab, but even though these, howOrientalism is so deeply ingrained
in terms of how people see things anddescribe things and define things.
So, um, but that becomes a status quo.
That becomes a status quo, especially whenyou have, for example, churches in the

(51:38):
United States highlighting, highlightingthe narrative of end of times narrative,
John Hague, like type of a narrativewhere there will be, uh, kind of a.
An end of times war, like end, end ofend of the world type of war where, uh,
we're on this side, they're on the bad,we're on the good side, they have the
bad side, and you know, everybody will,uh, will clash and ultimately that's the

(52:03):
return of the Messiah and, and and so on.
I mean, the idea here is thatthe closeness of Israel and
the United States is cultural.
Deeply cultural.
Mm-hmm.
In fact, mm-hmm.
More Zionist.
I mean, I, I even write about this.
And then to say that American forms ofChristianity are ones that are deeply
Zionist in terms of how they see himself,not because of Jewish people Okay.

(52:26):
But actually because of how theysee the end of time scenario
to include Jewish people.
So in a sense, it's like a prophecy thathas gone wrong as far as I'm concerned.
You know, people have to,to, to really be critical.
And I think this is where we're at.
You know, we, you find a growing numberof young Jewish Americans, and also,
I didn't particularly talk about theyounger generation, but the younger

(52:47):
generation understands equality andequity in ways that their parents don't.
And I also wanna say, speakingof younger generation.
Someone in Seattle, Washington,a young, young person in Seattle,
Washington, is able to speakto someone in Seoul, uh, south.
Uh, you know, in Korea, South Korea,uh, is able to speak to someone in
Tokyo, Japan is able to speak to someonein, uh, Dubai, United Arab Emirates

(53:11):
is able to speak to someone in Gaza,Palestine is able to speak to someone
in Tuni, Tunisia, and, and, and France.
We can go on and on.
They're able to understand one anotherin ways that they themselves cannot
speak or understand their own parents.
So we're talking about acompletely transforming
narrative that is on the horizon.

Mm-hmm.

Karam Dana (53:31):
But again, that doesn't mean that there's not gonna be a pushback.
Pushback is part of theconversation at all times.
And again, the pushback will intensifyas I have mentioned previously.
I think the, the, the harder thing forpeople, and you see this within, you
know, quite prevalent within JewishAmerican, uh, uh, younger Jewish
American individuals and groups, um,you know, who actually say my entire

(53:54):
worldview has completely transformed.
Yeah.
I mean, one person in particular, PeterByard, I'm gonna mention Peter Byard, a
very well-known Jewish American scholar.
I remember when Peter was an den Zionist.
He was 100% behind Israeluntil he actually visited
and saw it a couple of times.
And then he says, my entire worldviewcame down, shout came down on me.
I did not, I mean, everything completelyshattered in terms of how I saw the world.

(54:17):
But the idea, it takes time,things take, take time, and social
movements, as we all know, is notsomething that happens overnight.

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the most powerful
points that you make in the book is.
And I think it's made most clearly inthe conclusion is the idea that Zionism
and the perceptions that we have ofthis conflict are also punishing towards
and limiting of Jewish identity as muchas they are of Palestinian identity.

(54:48):
And, and I, I was really struckby your kind of deep dive into
the Evangelical Christian rootsof a lot of Zionism in the us.
Um, it reminded me of.
Several new books on kind ofevangelical Christianity in the US
that have sort of talked about howevangelical Christians see America
as the sort of Israel of the West.

(55:09):
Right.
And, and, and see these, uh,politics as very parallel.
Um, and in the book you quote Tom Driver,this professor at Union Theological
Seminary in New York, who has thisincredible observation that it is also
a great and frightening thing thatthe most pro-Israeli group in American
Christianity is also the most antisemitic.
Mm-hmm.
And as you know, as a professor and a,a person who has lots of Jewish family

(55:36):
members who has been sort of embroiledin this controversy over the last couple
of years, and these like upside downconversations about what antisemitism
is and is not, I, that really struck meas such a powerful idea that a lot of
this is not actually doing a service to.
Jews, either, um, that all of us areharmed by the kinds of narratives

(56:00):
that have been created around thisconflict, um, and the kinds of interests
that sit behind those narratives.
Am I getting you right there?
I.

Karam Dana (56:09):
Yes.
I mean, you, you are, you are.
And I think, um, I mean there, there aredifferent, different ways I can kind of
get into the, into this piece whereby,um, a lot of those who are pushing
for the narrative of Israel and kindof trying to preserve the status quo
and try to keep the image that they'vealways had in their minds and so on.

(56:30):
The, you know, there, thereare a number of pieces to this.
The first, it has to do with if we are.
To accept one narrative ofwhat it means to be Jewish.
Um, and that is equated withZionism and the, uh, and its
manifestation of Israel, for example.
Right?
That's one thing.
So if we are to do that, thencriticizing Israel puts you in

(56:52):
the definition of anti-Semitism.
Right?
Uh, but what about thosewho are not Jewish?
I mean, I think it's actuallyantisemitic to suggest that all Jewish
people should be supportive of Israel.
That is antisemitic.
And a lot of people have madethat argument that not all Jewish
people are, are, uh, the same.
And if you are to make, it's a similarargument to say that, you know, using a

(57:12):
stereotype to refer to a Jewish personcan be, um, uh, you know, it should
not be used at all Jewish people.
The rationale as to why, you know, alot of the Christian Zionists actually,
you know, and again, not all, but alot of, let's put it that way, the
Christian Zionists are suggesting that,okay, Israel is the manifestation of our

(57:33):
one one manifestation of the prophecy.
And we have to push inthat direction and so on.
And, uh, the more they're doing that,not because of Jewish people per se, if
anything, they're doing it because oftheir own beliefs that will eventually,
you know, be the, the price of whichwill have to be paid by Jewish people.

(57:53):
I mean, the, the, the prophecyitself, I mean it's even, it's very
interesting, like a war will happen.
Jewish people, a lot of themwill die in the war, right.
And then those who remain,either they convert or they die.
Like, you know, it's like convertto Christianity that is, and
you're like, wait a second.
This is kind of aninteresting thing to look at.
One, two, to thinkabout the United States.

(58:13):
I mean, three actually, this is the thirdpoint, sorry to think about the United
States as a manifestation of the NewIsrael oftentimes, or the new Jerusalem,
or, or, or it's, it's in a sense a way to.
Whitewash and create legitimacy for thedeath and destruction that the United
States as a state and as a government hadcommitted against indigenous, um, black

(58:36):
people and, and bipoc people in general.
Right?
So the idea here is the more you tryto connect yourself to the morality of
that piece, the more you connect to say,oh, that's, that was a moral decision.
The right moral decision toto, to take is, is problematic.
This isn't to say thatanti-Semitism doesn't exist.
It does obviously exist, but atthe same time, we one cannot.

(58:59):
Um.
Put all identities in one.
Okay.
We cannot, I mean, it becomes more orless we are orientalizing just like
a Muslim and Arab who happens to beChristian, can be seen similar to a
Muslim, can be seen to someone who'sso similarly, this is an inaccurate
way to put them in one category.
We cannot put all Jewish peoplein one category 'cause the

(59:20):
great level of difference.
And oftentimes, you know, there'sthat idea of us versus them.
The Jew.
The Jew versus the Arabor the Muslim and so on.
But people, I mean those whoknow, know, I mean it's simple.
Listen, simple research onecan, can look into that.
A great deal of.
You know what is known asthe Eastern Jew, right?

(59:41):
People who are from the Arabic speakingworld, whose first language is Arabic.
My own town, for example, had a Jewishcommunity, uh, the 20th century.
I mean, my point is like youhad Jewish presence in Palestine
throughout the Arabic speaking world.
It is when the settler colonialpractices that came from Europe

(01:00:02):
because of European policy thatexcluded them led to another level
of, of subjugation to another people.
So my point, yeah, and it's Edwardsay, said this many, many years ago,
he said, like, Palestinians are being,are being not only asked, they're
actually, they are paying for the priceof a crime committed in Europe, okay?

(01:00:22):
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, and it had nothing to do with it.
I mean, the idea is that ifanything, uh, I mean if you, you
know, you, you notice there's.
Endless examples, anecdotal and soon, and evidence, historical evidence
to suggest that, uh, Palestinianshave taken in, taken in Jewish
migrants who had arrived to Palestineescaping persecution in Europe.

(01:00:43):
So my point is, we really have to stickto it and define what it means to be
an Arab, what is mean to be a Jew andin relation to one another effectively.
Because like if I define an Israelias someone who has an inherent
right to the land, anything thatexists there has to be gone.
And effectively that legitimizesethnic cleansing and genocide, and
it becomes absolutely normalized.

(01:01:03):
Like, well, those peopledon't even have an identity.
They're not even human.
So it becomes easy tobomb into s smithing.
Yeah.
Well,

Marcus Harrison Green (01:01:10):
well, Korum, I must say that thank you is not enough
for this conversation, but, um, we havethe income bracket of a journalist and
an academic, and so that's, thank you,is really pretty much all we have.
But, um, in all, in all seriousness,this was an excellent conversation
and, um, just a privilege tobe able to talk to you today.

Karam Dana (01:01:28):
Thank you very, very much, Marcus.
I'm very delighted to be part ofthis amazing program that you have.
And I also wanna say it's greatto always see my dear friend
and colleague, Nora Kenworthy.
Um, thank you again.

Nora Kenworthy (01:01:40):
Thanks, Kara.

Wow.
You, you know, Nora, I didn't thinkthat it was possible to have a
conversation about Palestine right now.
That would give me some hope, but inall honesty, that one actually did.

Yeah.
I mean, these are such,such heavy histories.
But I remember I was talking toa colleague of mine who's a, a
public health expert who's workedin war zones all around the world
and has been a very long-term, youknow, uh, supporter of Palestine.
And after I. October 7th, I remember,you know, having a conversation with

(01:02:25):
her and sort of saying, my God, likethings feel so terrible right now.
How are you doing?
And she said, they, they are so terrible.
But also it's been terrible.
Like there was a time whenyou couldn't say the word
Palestine in an academic context.
You couldn't write it in scholarly papers.
Um, and so as awful as the last coupleyears have felt, I think for a lot

(01:02:48):
of people they have also cracked openthis growing movement of people who say
Enough is enough and this is not okay.
And who are feeling empowered to speak.
And I realize that's a thin silverlining on a very dark cloud.
But it is something that Ithink is worth recognizing.

No, absolutely.
And I, and I think it's alsoimportant to recognize it, it, it.
Comes at a time when there is more of ademocratization, if you will, of media.
Right.
We're not just dependent upon,thankfully, we're not just
dependent on broadcast media.
Right.
You have so much that is going onon, on TikTok and Instagram Yeah.
And various other platforms.

(01:03:28):
You know, even as some of thesefolks are, you know, some supporters
and, and advocates of Palestine, um,are, you know, effectively silenced.
Um, I think just the fact that we haveso many people who can try to build a
critical mass of support, uh, you know,on online and on these various social
media channels, I think that remainssuch an important part of this movement.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's a place where all of us cansay like, you're seeing what I'm seeing.
Right?
Like, and you're not okay with this.
Right.
Um, and for me it's really changedthe way that I. Engage with and think
about traditional media as well.
I mean, it's just really laidbare, some of the blind spots,

(01:04:11):
um, of traditional media and theway that it covers this crisis.

Marcus Harrison Green: Yeah, it's very galling. (01:04:15):
undefined
Um, you know, I mean, gram broughtup earlier about Tasi Coates and
I remember, uh, when his book,the Message First came out Yeah.
And he was going on book tour,the A CBS news reporter basically
lambasted him about, um, the portionof the book, which is about a third
of the book, about, you know, histravel over to Gaza and what he saw.

(01:04:36):
And, you know, it was, it was just socalling to see this on Neil Broadcast
tv where you have somebody attacked foressentially just trying to tell the truth.
Well, I guess it isn't that galling into,in this day and age, unfortunately, but

Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think Tanah Hei KO's argument,uh, Raza arguments, a lot of our
own experiences are telling us what.
Angela Davis has been tellingus for decades, which is like,
our struggles are connected.
Right?
Like Yeah.
And there's power in that andthere's also awfulness in that.
Right.
Um, and, and those thingscoexist at the same time.

Right, right.
But yeah, I mean, there'sultimately hope in that, right.
That

Yeah.

You know, it's up to us, you know, in our interlocked and
interdependent, you know, struggles andbattles to it is up to us, to, uh, to
get us to get us out of this together.
Yeah.
And that's the, that is theonly way forward is to go.
Yes.

Yeah.
And towards freedom,

so yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
Well Nora, and on that note, speaking ofhope it is come, definitely needs some

this week.
So serve it up.
Yes.

So we have come to that part in our podcast
where we share our eight ounce ofjoy, or what is helping us to get
through as we navigate this chaosgoblin that is called life right now.
Um.
I, uh, I, I will, I'll, I'll startoff and I'll, you know, you have
a, you have a nice one, so I'lllet you, I'll let you go after.

(01:06:06):
But, um, I recently, I, I was a partof this fellowship, the Young American
leaders projects that, uh, it was thiscohort of 10 people from Seattle, and
we joined other cohorts from 14 othercities from across the United States.
Um, and we all descended upon Harvard.
And let me tell you, it was, it's calledthe Young American Leaders Project, but I

(01:06:28):
think the range of age was like 33 to 60.
So they're, they're doing somestretching with that young part.
Young I am.
There you go.
But, so I will say this, like to be.
In a room with all these, uh, people fromdifferent cities, different backgrounds,
um, different walks of life, if you will.
And to have them all sort ofidentify what is the actual

(01:06:52):
problems that are ing us right now.
Um, it was just this wonderful sort ofrecognition that no longer are people
focused just on their own silo interms of, oh, it's just happening in my
neighborhood or my city, or this and that.
Mm-hmm.
It's, it was truly a recognition andmaybe it's out of necessity just with what
is going on in this country right now.
Probably.

(01:07:13):
So the fact that, look, we need tolink together around these issues, like
whether it's income inequality, right?
Whether it's, um, what's going on in Gazaright now, whether it's, um, you know,
what is going on with some of this, these.
Bills that are being passed over in, uh,Washington, DC Seriously, it's, and you

(01:07:35):
know, this was truly this recognition andthese from people, from like, I, everybody
from like the leftists, the leftistswho are the left of Pluto to Republicans
who were there, who, uh, they, we wereall of an accord on what, you know,
on identifying what the issue wa was.
Yeah.
And truly, I think it sparked alittle bit of hope in the sense that,

(01:07:56):
okay, maybe folks aren't as walledoff from reality as, as I thought.
Right.
Maybe, you know, we truly are livingthrough a shared experience here and
maybe what the supposedly divides us isn'tquite as acute as we believe it to be.
And so I

love that.

Yeah.
That's the, that was, thatwas my hope for the day.

Good for you.
Good for you.
Bringing that to Harvard.
Yeah.
You know, I had to, tolearn how to roll the, you

know, have the hard over annunciated hs and
everything with the, it workedout, it worked out for the week.
Yeah.

Um, I think mine is related.
I think that we're starting to tee apattern among these, um, but like a lot
of people, I'm, I am trying to savor thepost-election glow of Zaha and Man's win,
which is just, I, I think he's a reallyinspiring figure and I know it's so
important for us to not attach ourselvesto a single person and all our heroes

(01:08:56):
are problematic and all the rest of it.
But, um, just watching someonespeak to the real concerns of.
A diverse urban population in a largeAmerican city and get that much of
a mandate was really nice to see.
Um, and I know elections are not gonnasave us right now, but, um, I think

(01:09:17):
what I'm holding onto right now isthis like little fact that was like
buried at the end of a New York Timesarticle about his win, which was that
the progressive group run for something,um, which recruits younger and more
diverse Democrats to seek local office.
And the days after his win, they had morethan 1100 people reach out to them who

(01:09:38):
are interested in running for somethingin local offices across the us and.
I think the thing that I'm tryingto focus on is it's not just him.
There are really cool young people runningfor office all across this country.
There are really coolprimaries going on right now.
We can all find someone like him,um, and, and support them even if

(01:10:01):
we're not ready to run ourselves.
And I think we just gotta keepclinging to that sort of energy.
So it was nice to haveit for a little while.
I'll also say, so weirdly,I had Zhan ban's father as a
professor when I went to Columbia.
And he was, oh goodness, brutally hard.
In fact, I think I had to drop oneof his classes 'cause I couldn't

(01:10:23):
keep up with the reading load.
So I feel like if he could survivethat being his dad, I mean,
such an intense upbringing, somuch brilliance in that family.
Um, I, I have confidence that he can takeon the billionaire class of New York City.

I am hopeful as well, and that is.
That is where we will leave it.
As a matter of fact for this episode,uh, I will go ahead and read us out.
As always, thank you listeners as you havemade it through yet another week of the
slow apocalypse, and we are so glad youshared some of that time with us today.
As always, a huge shout out to our Freeishproducer, Jessica part now, and to a hum

(01:11:00):
alu for providing music for the show.
You can find and follow us on yourfavorite podcast platform R on
YouTube, Instagram, our blue sky newepisodes drop every Friday, and until
then, we'll see you in the meanwhile.

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Ep 7: Karam Dana | To Stand With Palestine

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep 7: Karam Dana | To Stand With Palestine