iNTO THE FRAY 508: Shapeshifters of the Muscogee Nation

Nick shares legends from his Muscogee Tribe, and his own personal experiences with the paranormal. Bigfoot, Shapeshifters, the Hatman, UFOs, and more.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The infinite complaces people went to and pro fears about
their little affairs, serene in the assurance of their dominion
over this small binning fragment of solar driftwood, which, by
chance or design, man has inherited out of the dark
mystery of time and face.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
On this episode of Into the Phray, I welcome Nick
on with me, and he got in touch. He says,
I have several paranormal experiences, and Nick is a part
of the Muskogee tribe and says that he's got some
stories to share from that side of things as well.

(01:21):
So I am very much looking forward to this. Nick,
welcome on the show.

Speaker 3 (01:26):
Thank you so much, and thank you for having me.

Speaker 4 (01:29):
It is my pleasure.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
So I don't actually really have the list of things
that we're going to be talking about, which is totally fine,
But did you want to go in order that they
happened or where they happened, however you wanted to start this, Nick,
you can go right ahead, Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:48):
Yeah. I was pretty much just gathering a general plan,
and I didn't know what kind of prompts you might
have had for me, So I pretty much just approach
everything with an open mind, and I just play my ear.
But my general plan was, like I'm gonna basically tell
you about like all of the things I grew up
around and how.

Speaker 5 (02:07):
These types of things like social or cultural influences that
kind of have informed my understanding of anything paranormal. Basically,
I grew up part of the Muscogee tribe.

Speaker 3 (02:21):
Has already has been said, and part of that mainly
was just like you grow up hearing like a lot
of lore and some stories and stuff that were like
some of them are experiences, some of them are experiences
that were like relayed maybe several people down the line
or whatever, and you don't really know what to believe,

(02:42):
but there's but there's a lot of stuff kind of
ties together and like I said, just informs the rest
of the things you hear about. So some of the
stuff that relates to my personal experiences involves stuff like
shape shifting and bigfoot and stuff like that. And a
lot of this stuff is like very very vague, Like
my sources, I only remember hearing about them growing up,

(03:05):
so I can't I can't tell you exactly when or
like some of the specific details about these circumstances. But
the first one is basically that my I had a
cousin named Vebbajee, which is a Scogi name for like
little baby. It's like actually a Muskogi English kind of name. Anyway,
he was, we have these we have these churches Native

(03:26):
American church basically at these churches, these are all each
and every one of these are out in the middle
of nowhere, basically in rural Coma. And he was, and
people attend this. There's camp houses around the main church cabin.
So the camp houses belong to families that are that
are part of the church or whatever. And my cousin
Bebajee was staying at one of these camp houses. One night,

(03:50):
he said that he woke up in the middle of
the night and there was like there's a street light
out there usually and it just provided light at night
and around these camp houses. The street light was casting
a light into his room from the window and he
was facing the window and he woke laying on his side,
and he said he saw this shadow of a man

(04:14):
looking in his to his room, looking into the window,
and it had like a hat on. The shadow man
had a hat on, and he said he like was
there for a long time and finally just got up.
The courts to look at the window, and he said
when he looked at the window, he saw a dog

(04:34):
and a dog looking in and the it was impossible
for that to be happening because the camp houses are
all elevated. They all sit on a stack of like
cinder blocks and stuff, so the window's very high. There's
no way like a regular dog could just be like
just like lookering into the window. So that was one
of them. We used to hear about these things called

(04:55):
stead of but which is like basically a diminutive on
top a diminutive for little people. And they say that
these things basically can corral children that's stray too far
away from their parents or whatever, and basically get them
lost in the woods. So I heard about things like that.
I didn't hear too much about Bigfoot growing up, But

(05:18):
once I actually started investigating or like hearing about Bigfoot
and kind of the things that I've seen on the
internet and from paranorios and stuff like that, like I
started to gain an idea of like how these things
operate or like what you typically would stumbling across these things.
But one thing I'll say before I get into my

(05:38):
actual experiences too, is that there was a story relayed
to me by one of my friends at the ceremonial grounds,
who basically did they He was told a story from
his friend growing up, and he knows both of these
people in the story very well, and basically one of
them was a hillis Hia, which is a medicine man

(05:59):
and which is basically like a common And so I
won't go too much into the medicine because it's.

Speaker 6 (06:06):
Like a it's like a taboo to talk to detail
about stuff like that, but basically, the overall gist of
it is that there's good and bad medicine.

Speaker 3 (06:16):
And my uncle, who is an actual medicine man, basically
told me that once you delve into the bad, you
are stuck with the bad, and then it's almost like
a decision like to make or whatever. But apparently there
are several people within our tribe that I have practiced medicine,
and medicine is just like a way to say magic,

(06:38):
basically for better or for worse, And nowadays I hate
it quite out, like nobody really knows these things anymore.
But basically, my friend had told me this story about
this guy who was also a medicine man, and they
knew him very well, and he was basically like chatting

(06:59):
aroun with his kid one day at ceremonial grounds, and
he asked jokingly, and natives in my tribe, they like
like joke around with you and like make fun of
you and like just laugh around about things like this.
But basically he asked his son if he wanted to
see something crazy, and his son said yeah. And at

(07:21):
the time, the guy was wearing overalls and he had
his arms tucked under his overalls. When he asked his
son about that, and his son said yes, he pulled
his arms out of his overalls and they were dog paws.
So these stories basically like inform me as to the
possibility of these things, and I go into these like

(07:43):
things already believing and stuff like this. Now with that
being said, I'll go ahead and go into like my
bigfoot experiences. And basically the first time I had already
been me and my friends had been listening to bigfoot
stuff we had heard, like the owl and like we
had even actually went off investigating into some of the

(08:05):
surrounding rural areas in Oklahoma, and we would do and
make try to make calls like bigfoot calls, and so
a couple of times we thought we heard something sounding
off back, but I'm under the impression that we heard
like an echo of the call that we you know,
nothing serious. But to my point that we were familiar

(08:25):
with the Ohio hol and how basically a bigfoot is
supposed to sound. And then I had also from my
uncle the medicine man question. He said that basically what
the Muscogees believe in terms of Bigfoot is that he's

(08:46):
a creature that actually used to be or is actually
like a very old Indian, like a very old Native American,
and like basically this thing still knows magic or the
medicine songs to like basically open up a hole in
the ground. And so this is crazy because in some

(09:08):
of the paranormal things that I've watched, I've seen things
that relate to this type of idea. But before I
like detail that, I'll just say that also in Muskogee Bigfoot,
the term for bigfoot is ejoza, which basically means one
that makes one forget. Basically, so the reason they call

(09:29):
it that is because they say that it's purported to
be like if you stumble across, if you cross this
thing's path in the woods, like not necessarily see it
or metaphorically speaking across its path, but if you literally
walk over the trail that it's walked over, you will
forget are and you will become depriented, and you will

(09:53):
basically be lost. So that's where the term it makes
one forget comes from. And then I also heard a
story related to me by a great aunt. And she
got lost with she child, and she got lost for
a day, and it was in Oklahoma, and it was
like roughly around where I lived, and which is in

(10:15):
like Oak Fusky County, and she had gotten lost for
about a day. They were she was. She had gone
her father had sent her out looking for of course,
and she had gone out looking for it she got lost.
And then she at one point she was crying, and
she was probably about seven or eight years old, and

(10:35):
she smelled this really horrible smell, like wet dog. And
then she said the smell kept getting stronger and stronger,
and eventually like she realized something was above her in
the trees. And she said, when she looked up, she
saw this thing in the trees and it was looking
down at her. Said that it didn't have hair on

(10:56):
its face. She said that it had a very pale face,
and then it had very long eyelashes, like so thick
that you almost couldn't see the eyes. And she said
that the hair on its elbows were very long, and
then she said it was very big, and then she
said at some point she just got scared and she
ran away from that thing. And then when she shortly after,

(11:19):
she found her way back home. So from that I
had discerned black dog smell. And one night me and
a bunch of friends were going out to this place
called the Wall to kind of party and have some drinks.
And I've set up a fire and stuff, relax and
do what you know kids do in rural America. And

(11:42):
we all pulled out there. We had about four vehicles.
We all pulled out there, and as soon as we
stepped out of the cars, everybody was getting settled into
this like little area. It's like a little cliff. That's
why we call it the Wall. And as soon as
we stepped out, it with this smell, and it was
like wet dog. And as soon as that registered in

(12:03):
my mind, I had sense or I felt like something
was watching us, something was out there, and so I
literally yelled to everybody I said, get back in the cars,
like we got to turn around and we got to
get out of here. So we did that, and then
and I didn't see anything during this night, but we
backed off to another place and everybody asked me what happened,

(12:25):
and I explained to him, I'm pretty sure something was
out there, like Bigfoot was or something was out there
watching us, and I could do more of a feeling
than anything. The next incident is when a similar situation
where friends and I were going, We're going to hang
out at this bridge, and it was a dark night,

(12:46):
but it was also there was some luminescence, and we
were parked the bridge, not as many people this time,
and we're hanging out, having some drinks and chilling, laughing.
It was a good time. And then we heard this
like somebody walking down in the water below us, and
it was definitely like bipedal. We like you could hear

(13:09):
like a distinctive swish, swish swish, and it would like
we could pinpoint based on what we were hearing. We
could pinpoint where it was, and we could see where
it was, but it was like just a very particularly
type of murky darkness that we couldn't see anything specifically.
We could see there was something, but it was just

(13:30):
so dark that it was couldn't verify what quite exactly
you were seeing, and you couldn't really tell make any
certain definitive format. But we had to be looking right
at it, and you could see see the reflection of
the like the moonlight off of the water, but you
just couldn't see exactly what it was. And it stopped.
So it stopped right in the middle of this river,

(13:53):
the North Canadian River, and we were looking at it
forever and we were just like in awe and stunned.
And then eventually it continued walking across the river, and
we never saw like what it was exactly, and we
know we must have been looking right at it, and
it sounded huge, and that river is pretty deep in
that area, so it was like, there's no way that

(14:14):
something could really walk through there without submersed. I would
have to say that it was something like that, it
was a bigfoot, or it was something like that, and
it was huge. So now the incident comes after I
heard about there's a ceremonial ground in Oklahoma one of

(14:36):
our tribe, one of our so our tribe is broken
into a confederacy of several smaller tribes, and these are
ceremonial grounds basically, so there's a that they ordered to
hear and see something like the out there, and the
ceremonies always happened at night, so we danced throughout the night.

(14:56):
And apparently I'd heard about this little girl who was
at the ceremonial grounds. And while they were dancing and stuff,
and the adults are always setting up camp doing whatever
they're doing, this little girl trailed off from the ceremonial
ground got was playing around and got lost in the
not really lost in the woods, but on the outskirts

(15:16):
of the ceremonial ground, and she came back. Like they
got worried about her because she didn't return for a
couple hours at least, and then when they finally saw her,
she wouldn't speak, and then they said that she spoke
like a day later, like a day later. It took
her to recollect her likeies basically, and I don't know

(15:37):
how old the girl was. I don't know who the
girl was. I heard this related to me by several
ceremonials who were at that dance, And apparently she had
seen something large and black outside of the ceremonial grounds,
like just outside like in the woods, in the trees,
and I heard about that, and then several days later

(16:00):
I was it was near my birthday, so I had
fireworks and I was going out by that ceremonial ground.
There's an old iron bridge out there, and me and
my friend Blaine were basically going out there just to
mess around. We were driving around. We had a firework
and like I said, we set it out. We made
it out to that bridge, We parked killed the truck,

(16:22):
went out to the middle of the bridge, set my
firework down, and then I lit it and it shoots
up into the sky and it was a really loud report.
And as soon as it went off, we heard this loud,
long howl like a screech or like a how. And
it was like in our minds like we had already known,
Like I said, we were already familiar with the Ohio

(16:44):
how and stuff. We knew what that was basically, and
as soon as we heard it, we bolted to the truck.
And so like when we drove off, and I would say,
from the sound of that, the tone of that like
scream or whatever, it was very funded angry, but Anyway,
we took off that night, and that pretty much is

(17:05):
about the extent of my like bigfoot experiences. But I
will say that on the note of my uncle saying
that this thing had the magic to open up portals
in the ground. Basically, I was watching one of the
newer seasons of Unsolved Mystery on Netflix, and I saw

(17:27):
this episode about the Navajo Rangers. They were investigating this
lady's property out in New Mexico, and she had a
security camera pointed on her house and her front yard
at night, and there was like a pool and there
was a street light kind of illuminating area, and then
the shadow passed by the pool created like this little

(17:48):
like a good sized shadow, and this thing comes out
of that shadow, and it is almost like hopping over
the pool or trying to traverse go off in another
direction before I guess it decided that it didn't have
enough room or shower that it maybe it knew that
it was on camera or something. It leaps back down
into this shadow, and that just instantly just brought to

(18:12):
my mind, like the thing that my uncle said about
this thing being able to open up portals in the
ground or holes in the ground. So that's that. I
had another set of experiences in Okinawa, Japan, and I
was in the military and the Marines, and I had
gotten really stressed out at the time. I was like

(18:32):
away from home for more than like a year. I
was like I was going through stress at the time,
so I couldn't really verify a lot of that that
was happening. I didn't know if it was just my
own stress or if it was like something stress related.
But basically, one night I was traveling from our headquarters
building back to our barracks and Okinawa was like the
bloodiest battle for two and if anywhere it's haunted, it's

(18:56):
going to be that place. But basically I was widing
bushes and the wind picked up, and I swear I
heard whisper my name, and it seemed to come from
those bushes. But it was also could have been like
I very I like vouched that it could have totally
been like the wind. I could have been, just like

(19:17):
I said, really stressed out, and that couldt me to
hear something that wasn't there. But there are a couple
of nights where one day I woke up and my
roommate was basically like asked me if I knew my
native language, and at the time I didn't. I had
to learn my native language like through the tribal call

(19:38):
later years later, and I know it now, but at
the time I didn't. I knew keywords, I knew like
animals and like common items and stuff. But he asked
me if I knew language, and I said no, not
enough to And I said why and he said, because
you at some point in the middle of the night
last night both sat up, bolt upright and started yelling

(20:01):
in like this old archaic language sounded like and he
said basically like it sounded like verbally reprimanding somebody. And
it was very loud, and he was like. It went
on for about thirty seconds, and he was like, and
then you just went back to sleep. And I had
no recollection whatsoever. But around the same and I had

(20:23):
this incident where I was trying to go to sleep
for whatever reason, I had the day off and I
was trying to sleep during noon, which some of the
marines come back to the barracks from their respective workplaces.
And my roommate and when he left to go to work,
I was like happy asleep. And when he left, I

(20:46):
distinctly remember him locking the door. Maybe five minutes later,
I heard the door unlatch, and I didn't hear it unlock.
I heard it unlaped, and so I just shrugged it off.
I went and shut the door and locked it, and
then I heard it unlatch again, maybe five minutes later.

(21:06):
Now I do recognize that I was probably in this
half sleep, half dream state, and but when that second
time when it latched open, I heard it, I knew
something off, and I probably to some extent registered that
I was in some dream state. And anyway, my room

(21:27):
turned into the hallway and it was this large exit
sign at the end of it. It was red, and
so it red lit the whole hallway, and it was dark,
and it was during the middle of the day, so
it shouldn't have been dark, because there's plenty of natural
light filtering in from the windows of the barracks. But anyway,
there's this There was this guy mopping down the hallway

(21:48):
with his back to me, and he was coming towards
me with his back to me, mopping the deck. And
when he got really close to me, I was like
watching the corridor and it turned and looked at me,
and it was a Japanese guy and he smiled at me,
and it was a very creepy, very eerie feeling, and

(22:09):
I ended up waking up after that. Another one more
thing that happened during this time was I had a
dream and it was like a sleep paralysis dream. My
roommate was in the room at the time and it
was I don't know, probably midnight or so. He was
talking on the phone with his girlfriend and I was
asleep and I remember waking up and I couldn't move

(22:31):
and I heard something. I heard like this voice and
it sounded like it was very like distorted, very heavy,
and I just felt this presence there and I felt
it looming over me, like looming over my rack. And
I was like, I literally had the wall and all

(22:52):
I had to do to turn on the light, because
the light switch was right next to me, was lift
my ped and slide it up the word literally like
turned on the light. And it took me what seemed
like a whole lifetime just to lift my pinky, and
I was freaking out. This thing was like looming over me, laughing,
and it was like, like I said, real distorted voice.

(23:13):
I couldn't quite see it. It was like out of
the corner of my eye, definitely like a shadow type thing.
And I finally managed to lift pinky up enough to
light on. And when I turned the light on, I
woke up and my roommate kind came around from his
like corner or whatever, like hey, was everything? Hey? And
I said, I said, were you laughing just now? And

(23:35):
he was like, no, I'm talking to my girlfriend. I
was like, part of me shrugged it off, but part
of me really felt like evil presence. Anyway, I went
to back, but a few like maybe a month ago,
I discovered this paranormal thing on YouTube called wartime stories,
and what turned there was that somebody was having similar

(23:58):
Like there were a lot of marine means that have
had similar experiences in the barracks in Okinawa, and this
one guy in particular said that his roommate woke him
up or the next morning basically said that he sat
bolt upright and was speaking Latin basically, and like that
just immediately brought me back to my experience. And then

(24:20):
that's when I realized, Okay, so I'm not crazy. I
don't think all of that I experienced in Okinawa was
stress related. There was definitely something going on and then
there was also a story about a marine in Okinawa
who went through something similar. He had a dream or
he had an instant saw like a Japanese like janitor,

(24:41):
and it was like one of those similar of mine,
where like smiled really like creepily towards him. And that's
when I just knew that that wasn't just me, that
this had this like the basically Okinawa is haunted. Aside
from all of that, I recently as I went down

(25:02):
to Oklahoma to visit family, like a weeks ago, and
before I did, my friend Blaine, who had the experience
with me on the bridge with the bigfoot screen. Basically
he tells me before I get down to Oklahoma that
that he sees UFOs pretty much every night, and I
hope you got a good camera phone because there's some

(25:24):
crazy I gotta show you. And I didn't really know
what to think about that. I know Blaine like never lies,
like he like people think all kinds of crazy things
about Blaine because he believes things, he says things, and
like he's all into the paranorma and people think he's
like bulls most of the time. But I've never I
don't care what the situation is known Blaine to lie,

(25:46):
and so I knew he was telling me the truth,
but I just didn't know exactly what it was he
was seeing. Anyway, the like the second night I'm in Oklahoma,
me and my friends are hanging out and then Blaine
comes over and then he tells me, Yeah, about one
point fifteen am, he's gonna go out to the field.
We're gonna look to the north and we're gonna see

(26:07):
we're gonna see some crazy shit. And so we did that.
It was me and four other guys. It was my
brother and it was Blaine, and so we went out
there and we went out there about one o'clock and
it was a field right next to my house, and
he said, it happens off to the north. So we
start looking at the north. When we had binoculars and
I had a cell phone. I had my IAD ready

(26:30):
to like take some video, but the resulting, like my
camera just basically wouldn't reach that far. So we started
seeing these lights. And when I was watching on the
trail we started, I saw those things that basically have
developed the name book lights, And now I think I
think that might be what it was. So anyway, we

(26:54):
start watching for these lights, and so we look off
to the north. And one thing is I have this
sky guide app on my phone and it basically just
where all the constellations are and like where the major
stars are and stuff like that. So why I basically
narrowed it down to the constellation Cassiopia and off to

(27:17):
the now from my place in Willika, Oklahoma. That like
looking off towards the north at that point in time,
which was like late May, Cassiopia resides to the north
and then basically to the west, and basically just a
little to the west of the constellation Cassiopia, these things

(27:39):
started appearing and they would flare up and become brighter
and then just come in and like drift off towards
the east kind of generally like moving in the direction
of under that constellation Cassiopia. And then these things would
move in all manner of ways. And for the most part,

(28:02):
they looked like orbs, or they looked like glowing fire.
Maybe if a star came down to the Earth or whatever,
like that's what it would probably look like. And I've
seen these things on loud on camera. There's apparently there's
a place in the Bronx where this guy was recording
this thing like every night, coming and just doing all
kinds of crazy things. And it looked like the same thing.

(28:22):
It was like a fireball. Now some of them were
like off white blue, and some of them were like
off white. Just looked like fire. And but like I said,
they would come in and they would do various things.
Some of them come in twos or threes. Some of
them split off. There would be one, or there would
be appear to be one and split off into two

(28:44):
or three. And when I put the binoculars, I couldn't
quite I was trying to determine exactly what I was
seeing and using my knowledge of light and like color
and all that stuff, and basically I tried to I
thought I'd just saw that one of these things, or
a few of these things were like disc shaped, but

(29:05):
I couldn't tell that. They just appeared disc shaped because
it was like I was looking through binoculars and the
edges of the light rays had polesced into disc shape,
or the outer edge of the light rays basically made
it look like a disc. So I couldn't tell if
that or if it was actually like some disc shaped objects.

(29:25):
But they would come in and some of them the
most the craziest things that makes me think this is
not a satellite. These weren't like any kind of operated crafts.
Was that they would like form in triangle shapes and
then they would alternate, they would transform the shape of
that triangle like just in like seemingly like random ways,

(29:47):
and but it would like it would be like a
uniform looking thing. And then like I said, they would
drift off and go somewhere off to the east wherever
they started to appear from. So they all moved in
the general direction, and I would say we saw about
one hundred of these things, if not more. I say
one hundred because like there's probably more, but that's a

(30:09):
safe number. So we watched them over the course of
a couple hours, and we've stayed We stayed up pretty
much until four o'clock in the morning and we went
to sleep after that. But it was like we were
watching these things for quite some time. And the entry
point I say entry point because my friend Blaine was like,
I don't understand why they flare up like that. And

(30:31):
I developed this kind of like pseudo theory that like
they flare up because it looks like they were coming
into the atmosphere and then and then branching off and
then going off generally to the east. So I said
that I think they're coming in to the Earth at

(30:51):
a direct asthmuth and like basically coming in from like
a portal or something, because they all seem to originate
from one and then they would off and like I said,
do some crazy things. Like it was not they weren't
traveling in straight lines. It wasn't anything in orbit, because
I know what that looks like. They were all just

(31:12):
doing some crazy things as they were flying down to
the Earth. And so basically this point of origin where
they were coming through at seemed to move to the
right or to the east, as Cassiopia moved to the east.
So so what I think is that we were spinning,
the Earth was spinning, and we're moving. That point of

(31:33):
injury wasn't moving. This is just a theory of mine,
and that point of entry wasn't moving, and they're still
just coming into the Earth at a direct asthmus. So
I think they're coming from some type of wormhole or
portal or something. Then they Blane said, they happens every night.
He said he sees it every night. He goes to
watch it every night basically, and so it makes me wonder,

(31:57):
what the hell are these things doing? Why are they
coming to visit in the stealth of the night. And
I just basically I don't know exactly what they are.
I have my own theories and and I just based
on all of these things that have happened to me
throughout my life, like, I just know that it's something
more than something man operated or a satellite or anything

(32:18):
like that.

Speaker 4 (32:21):
Now, did you guys.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
Try to interact with them at all or has ever tried.

Speaker 4 (32:25):
To do that?

Speaker 3 (32:27):
No, so I haven't. He hasn't ever said that he's
interacted like that. I I didn't even think to ask
him because I've heard of CP five's or whatever, like.

Speaker 4 (32:39):
Oh five, Yeah, I know what you're talking about.

Speaker 3 (32:43):
Yeah yeah, So like we didn't at all. And I
think the reason is because I think we felt like
it was too far away because they were so far.
It was so far like to the north, and to me,
that's what made me think also that they were coming
into the atmosphere was because there was so far away.
So no, to answer your question, we didn't try to

(33:04):
initiate contact or like we were just observing.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
That is pretty wild that you could at least ascertain
some kind of a shape from them.

Speaker 3 (33:18):
Yeah yeah, and that was only through looking through the binoculars.

Speaker 7 (33:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:21):
Like I said, I know that it could have just
been the way the light was like revealing itself to
me that made this like disshape looking.

Speaker 4 (33:29):
Thing, right, or the way it moved. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:32):
Yeah. So that's pretty much the extent of everything I've
experienced outside of having just eerie feelings. Like I said,
when we pulled up to the wall on that occasion
and then we got out and immediately smelled this just heavy.
And if it weren't that heavy, I wouldn't have automatically
jumped to, oh, my god, something's out here, because maybe

(33:52):
it was just a wet dog or a dead dog
or something like that. But it was strong and it
was like so overwhelming that I was just like know,
and it was that in conjunction with the feeling that
something was out there, So like, I just know that
these things are like out there or whatever. And I
think there's probably so much more to it, so much
more complex than anybody can even fathom. But I definitely

(34:16):
believe there's a lot going on. I when the New
York Times released the footage of the UFO and the
like naval ship like a couple of years ago, I
was like, this is like groundbreaking. I can't believe like
they actually released this foot it and I would. It
seemed like everybody just nobody saw that, and everybody just

(34:39):
ignoring the fact that we're being visited by extraterrestrials. And
it's like, part of the reason why I'm so interested
in this is just because I feel like there's so
much more to the life that we're like living on
this earth, and awareness needs to get out, Like people
need to know that things are going on out there,

(35:00):
and like it would shift our whole I think, like
societal consciousness by just being aware of these things.

Speaker 2 (35:09):
Yeah, And the crazy thing is, even with that, people
just ignore it. So I don't really know what it's
going to take to get people interested. But they're still
really not and they still chuckle about it.

Speaker 4 (35:18):
So that's unfortunate.

Speaker 2 (35:19):
Okay, So zipping back to Bevigy and he sees this
thing outside the window at night and essentially it shape
shifts into a dog. Is the whole point of that story, right,
So the idea of shape shape shifters, You guys aren't
even really supposed to talk about them, So even for

(35:43):
that story to be told to another person is taboo, right,
Wasn't he supposed to keep that to himself?

Speaker 4 (35:49):
Essentially?

Speaker 3 (35:51):
I think it's for us. For my tribe in particular,
they're more concerned about like things like the specific if
I a medicine man knew a medicine song that could
make him turn into something else, if I told that
song to anybody, that would be severe like taboo. But

(36:12):
like people in my tribe talk about their experiences with
paranormal all the time. And oh there's also one other
like set of experiences, which is mainly one experience that like,
and there are several like it in which I never
saw anything. It was like the Bigfoot thing where I
didn't exactly see something, but it was like definitely hearing stuff.

(36:34):
So my tribe, the most common animal for a bad
medicine man or whatever what like a lot of people
in the Apache tribe or whatever we call it bruja
or no, maybe not a patchy, but navajo. Basically, like
witchcraft for my tribe is like the most common animal
forbody to turn into is an owl. So people are

(36:57):
like death afraid of owls in my tribe, and they
you know what als sound, I'm assuming, but they can
get down and crazy and we basically they make a
very specific type of call, and when they make that
type of call, it's assumed by somebody at our tribe
that like, these are medicinemen. These aren't owls out there,

(37:19):
This is a medicine man. And I had a friend
that basically like would be really good at doing these calls.
And we would go out to the Indian churches, these
native churches at night, and it's really creepy that they're
all out of nowhere, really creepy stuff. And we would
he would me and a few friends that we would like,
dare my friend to make this call, right, And he

(37:42):
would call, and then you would hear one off in
the distance. I would say, maybe it would start off
at probably two hundred two hundred meters away. He would
hear a similar call, and then we'd wait for a
little bit, we'd around smoke a cigarette or whatever, and
then he would do it. He'd make the call again,
and then the call would come back and it would

(38:04):
be two of them and they would be closer. It
would be about one hundred meters, and then he would
do it again eventually, and then there were at least
three or more of these things making calls back to him,
and they had all moved within I would say, within
me from us and just out of eyesight so we
couldn't really see them, and that this is all wooded area,

(38:27):
and they started to get to where they were doing
more than just a regular owl noise. It sounded like
they were laughing and conversing and talking about it, and
like just conversing and like chattering and stuff. And so
at around that time we would freak out and then
we'd get in the truck and then we'd leave. So
that was a normal once a month Saturday experience or

(38:50):
something that we would do.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
Yeah, that would be definitely extremely creepy to be hearing
anything like that, whether it's owls or something else.

Speaker 4 (39:00):
Bad, very creepy sounding.

Speaker 2 (39:02):
So now I know that this speaking of taboo subjects,
you already said you can't say a whole lot about
medicine men in general, And if this question is over
the line to say, I'm not going to answer that,
no problem. I was just wondering, can anyone.

Speaker 4 (39:18):
Be a medicine man.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
Are they born into it? Do they have certain gifts
that allow them to be a medicine man or is
it something that you can learn? Could you become a
medicine man if you wanted to?

Speaker 3 (39:29):
That's a good question. So, like, at least from what
I can tell and from what my uncle has told me,
because our ceremonial grounds depend on our medicine man to
make good medicine basically, and a lot of these grounds
are like losing younger people that adopt this thing. But
from my understanding, from what my uncle tells me, it's

(39:49):
you have to have a special kind of disposition. You
have to be of a sound mind basically, and like you,
it's kind it takes a special person to answer that question.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
All right, this one I might know you can't answer.
But and it might just come down to being a
human being. And how some people just they're super smart,
they have a good idea and they just use it
for bad things.

Speaker 4 (40:21):
What would be the gain for a.

Speaker 2 (40:24):
Medicine man to want to go to the dark side
with their gifts and not use it for positive things? Again,
I don't even know if you can answer that that.

Speaker 3 (40:34):
So from yeah, I can answer it pretty loosely from
what I gather, Like, the people that do those types
of things are like because it is heard of, people
do it apparently, and and there's like certain families within
the Greig nation that are like or Creek. I think
Creek because we used to be called Creek and we
used to call ourselves Creek. But in the Moscogy nation,

(40:55):
there's there's people that know people who are purported to
engage in this type of stuff. But basically the only
incentive for that is to if you wanted to, if
you got mad at somebody for something or jealous or something,
you would put medicine on them and then they would
be visited by some paranormal entity or like they would

(41:16):
just have a huge string of like really bad up
and but a lot of things would relate to people
seeing something on their property at night and like receiving
visitors basically on their property, and it was like it's
also like basically just wishing harm upon people. Because I
hate to say it, but there's like an element of

(41:38):
jealousy in some areas of my tribe where like people
don't really like seeing people do well off and they
get jealous. Basically and it's the same I would say
type of people that like typically like engage in this
kind of thing. But yeah, the incentive would be to

(41:59):
like basically harm or ill will to somebody.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
So even if something horrible is done, say t he
with your uncle and within your family, if something horrible
was done within your family, the second that he uses
his gifts and his powers for lack of a better
words or verbian right to wish harm even though harm
was done to someone in your family, the second he
crosses that line, then there's no coming back from that.

Speaker 3 (42:28):
From my understanding, Yes, maybe there's a little bit of leeway,
but from my understanding, it's almost like a black hole
type thing.

Speaker 4 (42:38):
Wow, that is fascinating.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
Yeah, I recall somebody coming on the show a long
while ago and said that essentially one of these quote
unquote bad medicine folks had sent in again, I'll use
air quotes owls to watch the property, that the father
would go out and try to shoot these owls that
weren't actually really outl.

Speaker 3 (43:00):
Yeah, no, that's I've heard of stories like that, like
pretty much from a lot of people in my tribe.

Speaker 2 (43:05):
Yeah, because what was the county that you said, Oak
Fusky County. Is most of that county a reservation.

Speaker 4 (43:14):
Or just some of it?

Speaker 3 (43:16):
That's a good question, because we have been living the
Muscogee and basically every other a lot of other tribes
in Oklahoma have been living on a reservation for since
we got removed from Georgia and Alabama. And we just
recently discovered that, and that was discovered through a court
case where this guy basically got away with murder because

(43:38):
it was that we were on a reservation, and we
didn't know we were living on a reservation. It was
technically a reservation. No. I grew up not believing that
I lived on a reservation, but I knew about the
reservation of the two and everybody, like all the other
reservations and stuff. I knew about reservations, but when we
always just assume we weren't on a reservation, but technically

(44:00):
we were, so, Okfusky County is in is within the
jurisdictions of that reservation. And now things are like different
in terms of like legalities and stuff because of that
revelation that would happen in twenty and sixteen or twenty seventeen.

Speaker 2 (44:17):
Oh my gosh, that's so recent. Yeah, Oh my gosh.

Speaker 3 (44:22):
Yeah, yeah, so it was like, yeah, so a whole
bunch of different kind of things have resulted as a
as as a result of that kind of nation. The
governor said, Kevin Stitt was like trying to give people
tickets for having tribal tags and stuff like that, and
that was part of the whole plan. And I don't

(44:47):
know much about the legalities of it, but I just
know that for the longest time, we all just thought
that we didn't live on the reservation, but technically we have.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
That is wild, right, yeah.

Speaker 4 (45:00):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
There's all kinds of stuff that goes along with that,
and then it goes to is it better from a
regulatory sense to have it well known and have the
government be part of that or is it better not to, right, yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:17):
Because it's like you hear all kinds of crazy things
about the sue the Pine Ridge Reservation, and it's like
what kind of crazy like economic catastrophes that brings. It's
like and jurisdictional problems.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
Yeah yeah, and then people in power a lot of
times will abuse it. So there therein lies another entire problem.

Speaker 3 (45:39):
Absolutely. Yeah, no, I'd say that's the case probably ninety
percent of the time.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
Yeah, yeah, unfortunately, Nick, was there anything else you wanted
to add or anything I should have asked you about?

Speaker 3 (45:52):
No, it pretty much covers it. And if I think
of any like tidbits of information, I'll just shoot it
over to you.

Speaker 4 (45:58):
Absolutely, I would love that.

Speaker 2 (46:00):
No, I love this chat anytime that we're talking about
shape shifters. And and thanks for sharing what you could
about the whole medicine man thing and reservations. I know
that a lot of that is tight lipped, and I
do understand why. So thanks for sharing what you could
about that.

Speaker 3 (46:16):
Yeah, no problem, no problem. It's like I've always known,
you're not really supposed to talk about too much, but
I didn't give away the information, like supposed to stay
with the tribe. So it's yeah, pretty much common knowledge.

Speaker 4 (46:30):
No one's coming for you, hopefully right.

Speaker 3 (46:32):
Just if they do. My uncle's a pretty powerful according
to from what I hear, he's got pretty powerful medicine.

Speaker 4 (46:40):
Oh that's so cool.

Speaker 2 (46:41):
That's one of my favorite things to discuss is people
like that. That is absolutely fascinating.

Speaker 4 (46:47):
And what was what's the bigfoot name there?

Speaker 2 (46:49):
The Hosa Hoosa Hosa and they live underground. It sounds,
which is amazing they're just opening up portals and holes
and just popping in and out.

Speaker 4 (47:00):
I love that.

Speaker 3 (47:02):
Yeah, and then the Creeks. The Muskogee spelling for that
is e H O S V, which the V and vow.
It's a sound.

Speaker 2 (47:12):
Oh interesting, Okay, Wow.

Speaker 3 (47:16):
There's another term for the bigfoot in my tribe. And
actually a couple of other tribes that are like related
to us, like the Chalk Twist language is similar to
ours because we're like a sister tribe. And then there's
some Seminole words. And there's two kinds of Seminole Native Americans,
and one of them's closer to our tribe, but the

(47:37):
other one that lives in Florida. Basically their language is similar,
more similar to ours than even like our actual neighbor,
the Seminole tribe. But basically so this word I think
can be translated in Chalktaw to mean the same thing,
and maybe even Seminole. I'm not sure. It might be similar,
it might be different, but it's basically. And I heard

(47:59):
this on I heard this on some type of paranormal
show that I was watching, where this guy he mentioned
the Muscogee term for it, and it's it's the now
he said he butchered it, but he said, it's the choky,
which is how you might read it if you wrote
it out in English, but it's it's the chup tugy.

(48:20):
Is the actual pronunciation, and that would be E S
T E and I always put a hyphen CVP cv
K E. It's the chup tuggy and that basically just
like a long person.

Speaker 4 (48:36):
Oh, a long person. Oh that's cool.

Speaker 2 (48:39):
I'm not going to try to pronounce that. I'm going
to leave that one alone.

Speaker 4 (48:42):
I'll let you do that. You just did that beautifully.

Speaker 2 (48:44):
But I would say long person, that is really cool.
But see, I guess no matter what name though everybody
has for them, it's like there, you need to have
reverence for them and respect for them. And just like
that little girl, it took her a whole day just
to mention what she saw. Ah, it's not usually that great.
If they're around and kind of watch the kids, watch

(49:06):
your wife kind of deal. Don't go trapsing around at
the back of the house at night.

Speaker 3 (49:11):
Yeah, yeah, No, I would say that's generally the attitude
towards it, and it's that way towards the supernatural in general.
It's like they always the elders would always tell you don't.
They'll be pointing the flashlight up in the trees at
night because you're gonna see something you ain't supposed to
see or something.

Speaker 2 (49:28):
Oh god, yeah, forget that, like the owls that aren't owls.

Speaker 4 (49:31):
You're like, I'm gonna need some therapy.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
Now that's great, Holy crap, Nick, thank you so much
for sharing all this.

Speaker 3 (49:40):
Yeah, absolutely, thank you for having me on.

Speaker 8 (49:46):
Well, so I was getting the same by my parents,
business college. I've done my profession producers. But that's something
for story, that's all gone.

Speaker 3 (50:01):
That's all parts. I want to see them really you
who you are now. But nobody knows who learning is
because we.

Speaker 9 (50:08):
Don't know ourselves except through listening to our egos and
consulting our memoris. But then that's a really and that
again needs expect to this question.

Speaker 5 (50:23):
What are you?

Speaker 4 (50:25):
That is the meaning.

Speaker 8 (50:27):
We shall see how they play with this success or
buy the cost to get.

Speaker 9 (50:32):
You to come out of your show and find out.

Speaker 10 (50:36):
Who you're very old. It's it's, it's, it's it's puts puts.

Speaker 7 (51:47):
Its Compass. People for example, are quite divided on us.

Speaker 9 (52:31):
They will say, no, we don't believe literally in reincarnation
that after your funeral you will suddenly become somebody different,
living somewhere else. They will say, reincarnation means this that
if you sitting here now are really convinced that you're
the same person at the.

Speaker 10 (52:52):
Door a half an hour ago, you'll be becoming.

Speaker 9 (52:57):
If you're liberating with your moms now that you're not.
The past hasn't existence, the future doesn't exist.

Speaker 3 (53:06):
There is a present.

Speaker 5 (53:07):
That's go be way.

Speaker 9 (53:09):
The incis send Master, don't get away.

Speaker 4 (53:12):
Its basic SI.

Speaker 9 (53:15):
String does not become something.

Speaker 7 (53:19):
Because there is some sense and then there is springs.

Speaker 10 (54:09):
It's it's it's puss Puss. Puss Puss.

Speaker 9 (55:13):
Has the same ideas the Four Days where he says,
when you've settled down in the train and to read
your newspaper and.

Speaker 3 (55:22):
So they were not the same.

Speaker 8 (55:23):
Person a while ago, and live in the plan.

Speaker 9 (55:28):
If you think you are, you are linking your moments
up in the check and this is what binds us
to the wet. But when you know that every moment
of which you are is the only moment, this comes
into zer and the Master will say.

Speaker 3 (55:45):
To somebody, I can't have a walk across.

Speaker 9 (55:48):
The room, and it can't be back, and he says,
where are your foot?

Speaker 3 (55:51):
They've gone, So where are you?

Speaker 7 (55:57):
Who are you?

Speaker 8 (55:58):
When we are asked who we are, usually give a
kind of recitation of an instruins or insens