A Road Trip in Southwest France: Top Tips and Destinations, Episode 542

Episode Transcript
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(00:16):
This is Join Us in France, episode 542.
Bonjour, I'm Annie Sargent, and Join Usin France is the podcast where we take
a conversational journey through thebeauty, culture, and flavors of France.
Today, I bring you a conversationwith Craig Anderson about an extensive
drive through the Southwest ofFrance, from Montpellier to Toulouse.

(00:40):
Discover hidden gems, delightful foodtours, UNESCO World Heritage Sites,
Cathar castles, and vibrant cities.
Craig shares unique experiences,practical travel tips, and insightful
observations that will make you wantto pack your bags for an adventure
in the beautiful region of Languedoc.

(01:00):
Whether you're planning your firsttrip or are a seasoned traveler, this
episode has something for everyone.
This podcast is supported by donorsand listeners who buy my tours and
services, including my itineraryconsult service, my GPS self-guided
tours of Paris on the VoiceMap app,or take a day trip with me around the
Southwest of France in my electric car.

(01:22):
You can browse all of that on myboutique: joinusinfrance.com/boutique.
And remember, Patreon supporters get thepodcast ad-free and as soon as it's ready.
Click on the link in the show notesto enjoy this Patreon reward for as
little as three dollars per month.
For the magazine part of the podcast,after my chat with Craig today, I'll

(01:42):
discuss the wonderful BibliothèqueNationale de France François Mitterrand
site, which is having a birthday,and tips for buying your Paris
metro tickets on your smartphone.

(02:05):
Bonjour Craig and Pamela Andersonand welcome to Join Us in France.
Bonjour.
Good morning.
Wonderful to have you on the podcast.
We're going to talk about yourextensive drive through the Southwest
of France, which included Toulouse.
I love to hear that.
You went to a lot of places.
So when did your trip take place?

(02:26):
It was late October and earlyNovember of this past month.
So 2024, very recently.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we have some, hopefully some veryrecent updates to what's going on
in some of those places as well.
Wonderful.
And it was just the two of you?
Yes, uh-huh, yeah.
My wife and I, we have been trying tohit various regions in France before

(02:50):
without spreading ourselves too thinand trying to spend more time in a
smaller region and this, the Languedocregion is just a region that we have
not gotten to yet and so we reallytried to spend time just in that region.
So how many trips to France doyou think you've had all together?
Oh, it's probably easier to think aboutthe regions because we've been, before we
started doing it region by region, we'dgone there to some of the big highlights

(03:13):
here and there, but over the past fewyears, we tried to make a specific trip
to Alsace and the Champagne region onetime, we did the Burgundy region, and
then cross France to go to the Bordeauxand French Basque Country one time.
We've done Paris, we've doneNormandy, so yeah, I think we've hit

(03:33):
most of the areas pretty intently.
Provence we did in a separate trip aswell, so, really this was kind of the
last region that we haven't gottento is probably the French Riviera.
That's probably the last area thatwe haven't, you know, Cannes and
Saint Tropez and some of those areas.
We're kind of saving that one, doit in the right summer season, but
the other places, I think we'vepretty much hit out at this point.

(03:56):
Still plenty to see though.
I bet.
Yeah.
Well, France is, you know, you cannever get to... it doesn't sound like
you went to the Dordogne very much yet.
Well, actually that he left that out.
That was my trip that I planned.
Most of the time, Craigis the itinerary planner.
But the one trip that was mine thatI planned from beginning to end was
the Loire Valley and the Dordogne.

(04:17):
And then ended up in Saint Emilion.
So that was my trip.
So, yes, we covered all that, too.
Wow, you do get around.
That's fantastic.
Okay, so on this trip, first ofall, tell us how long you were
in France for, for this trip.
I mean, roughly, we were there,in this part, for about two weeks.
So, starting in Montpellier, and thenending up in Toulouse, I think you

(04:38):
could do the trip shorter than thatif you had to compress it, but we
had a few days here and there that wecould spread things out a little bit.
For instance, in Toulouse, we stayedfor five days at the end, but you could
certainly make this road trip, you know,in a week or ten days if you needed to.
Right.
So you weren't tryingto move on every night.
Like you stayed in the same hotelsfor a couple of nights or whatever.

(05:01):
Yeah.
I mean, we had the luxury on this tripof, it wasn't that big of an area to
cover from Montpellier to Toulouse.
And so it didn't require a lot of,you know, driving for long days.
And so we sort of had the benefit ofintentionally stopping and staying a
little bit longer in some places, which,you know, certainly, I would recommend
if anybody's got the time to do it.

(05:21):
We never really regret hanging out ina city and just sort of, living there a
little bit like a local, but if somebodysaid, well, I don't have, you know,
two weeks to just meander through that,or I'm trying to fit this trip into a
bigger trip, I think realistically youcould do the Montpellier to Toulouse
trip in ten days if you needed to andhit most of the stuff that we saw.

(05:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you went from Montpellier toSaint Guillem le Desert to Sète.
Yeah.
So the first stop.
Let me just read off the, all the names.
So you went to Montpellier,Saint Guillem le Desert, Sète,
Béziers, Loupian, Carcassonne,Albi, Rabastens, and Toulouse.

(06:03):
So here, there's a few in herethat we haven't talked about
very much on the podcast.
So that's really interesting.
So take it from the beginning andtell us what you enjoyed the most.
So the first stop was in Montpellier.
That was our first stop, and we stayedright in the middle of the historic
core, which is what we always try to do.
And the first couple of days that wewere there, we did not have a car,

(06:25):
so we could just walk to everythingand it's a very compact, beautiful
city core, so I'll let Pam on maybewhat are some of the things that you
liked about Montpellier in particular.
I think it's a wonderful, just compactarea where it's so nice when you can just
walk everywhere and you kind of, withinone day, get the feel for the entire city.
Great little shops for theladies that like to shop.

(06:47):
Yeah.
And beautiful, you know, some Romanthings, just very beautiful city,
worthwhile having a stop there for sure.
Right.
The things that I would sayabout it that I liked was you
get all the normal favorites.
French food, French architecture, Arcde Triomphe, I mean, a lot of very
pretty buildings that are sort ofclassic French looking with a very

(07:11):
nice large museum that's there as well.
I mean, the Fabre Museumwas a very nice museum.
So, you could do all the sort of normalFrench things that you might like doing,
maybe in a less hustle and bustle city.
But also the interesting thing to meon, both Toulouse and Montpelier, was
because they're university cities,there was such a feeling of vibrancy.

(07:33):
Sometimes when you go to a place,because a lot of times we're going off
season on purpose to beat the crowds.
But sometimes you get to places where itfeels a little quiet, because it doesn't
have that tourist life, because that's theonly reason anybody goes to that place.
But, these cities, youdidn't get that at all.
There were people, shops, bars,restaurants, everything looked very

(07:57):
nice and hip and modern in some waysbecause of the student population.
Of course, there's a lot of beautifulold buildings and all the history that's
there, but you know, it felt very vibrantbecause of all the student population
that were there and great food choices.
And then the other thing that I thoughtwas interesting about Montpellier that
was different from some of the placeswe've been to is because I tried to

(08:19):
string along the Camino de Santiagostops, along this, because that's kind
of one of the things that I like doing.
And, you know, so I'd already mapped outall the places that you could go to on
the Camino, and I did a few hikes duringthis trip, like a day hike to just hike
part of that, that particular Camino.
So that was fun to kind of see someof those things, which you only get

(08:39):
if you happen to be on one of thosehistoric cities that happens to be on
that path and I kind of plan some ofthese towns to hit some of those spots.
Sure.
Yeah.
It's true that Montpellier has avery lovely student city kind of
vibe and you were there right at,you know, in the middle of that.
I think it makes it more lively.
And it has a very big school of medicine.

(09:01):
Pretty much we did all ofMontpellier in one day.
So we did a walking tour and thenwe just explored it ourselves.
And then the second day, we actuallyhad someone that gave wine tours take
us out to the area around that area.
And that was fun and interesting becauseit's just a different area of wines.

(09:21):
And he's the person that took us to themonastery that you mentioned, just to see
that, It was a very beautiful monastery.
But it was just a chance to getaround in the countryside and talk to
somebody who could talk about the wineproduction and took us to a couple of
wineries that were very cute becausethey were very small and you were just
sitting there talking with the owner.
And you know they had Roman roads goingthrough their winery or some Roman

(09:44):
coins or pottery they had uncovered sojust it was kind of interesting because
these people are you know very proud andpassionate about their vineyard there,
and the wines were very good, and that wasreally fun to just do that for a full day.
Right.
So, you found a tour guide that youhired through the tourist office or?
I just found it on Airbnb Experiences,but they're pretty easy to find.

(10:06):
I mean, if you go into TripAdvisoror Viator or Airbnb Experiences, I
mean, I usually do a pretty detailedresearch list and you can always find
somebody that is doing something fun.
And this, it was just thetwo of us and the gentleman,
and it wasn't that expensive.
He took us to his house that helives in with his parents and
his mother made us this wonderfulmeal in the middle of the day.

(10:29):
All with really local freshfoods and bottle of wine.
And so it's kind of fun.
It's kind of in the countrysideat somebody's house having a fun
meal in the midst of everything.
So yeah, we enjoyed doing that.
That was fun.
That's really different because I do takepeople on tours, but I don't bring them
home to have a meal, that would be weird.

(10:50):
Yeah, that's not one that we have runacross, but on occasion, we'll run
through these trips where they'll finda friend, or maybe it's the winery
itself, or maybe it's their place.
We've never had a bad experiencedoing that, I mean, the food's always
wonderful, and it's always different,and it's always local things, and it's
just a chance to just sort of hangout with somebody and ask, you know,

(11:13):
silly questions about what's lifelike in this area, and always get some
unusual funny things that you learn.
Yeah, so was this a tourin English or in French?
Yeah, no, he spoke perfectEnglish, and I think I sent the
outline to you on the show notes.
I mean, if you want, anybody wantsto reach out, I mean, Bernard gave
a great tour, he was wonderful.

(11:33):
So much information and, youknow, you're just driving around
and somebody just pointing out.
Oh yes, this is what this wine productionis like now, it used to not be that
way and, you know, here's this littletown square and, oh yeah, here's what
this, he took us to another littlechurch that, you know, we would have
never found in a million years in themiddle of some little small village.
It's always just finding someout of the way fun things to see.

(11:54):
Yeah, that's great.
Yes, I'll include your specificrecommendations on the show notes.
And I'll probably do a guest notes,because you did send very good guest
notes like you really did your homework.
Congratulations, that's really cool.
But yeah, that was kind of our two daysin Montpellier, one in the city, one sort
of seeing the countryside, and then, Ikind of got back early enough that one day

(12:16):
where I could walk a part of the Camino,and it's always easy to do that if you're
interested in that, you can find where thepath is and just follow the markers and
you can see the Camino shell and where itgoes and all the things that leads past.
So it's usually fun to kind of dothat, even if you don't hike it out
of the city, if you find some ofthese cities that it goes through.
It almost always goes throughall the highlights that you would

(12:38):
imagine that would go through.
So you just follow the little markers orthe shells right through the middle of
the city and, you know, it's kind of afun walking path to do, even if you don't
want to, you know, do hardcore hiking.
Definitely.
Wonderful.
So you also went to Sète.
Did you pick up a car at that point togo to Sète, or did you take the train?
Yeah, so after we left Montpellier, weknew we would be more in the countryside,

(13:01):
and so we just picked up a rentalcar right in the middle of the city.
It was very easy to do that.
Hopped in the car, and then drove to Sète,which was not a very far drive at all.
So we drove first to the hill thatoverlooks the town, because I thought,
well, that would be a fun way to sort oforient yourself to what it looks like.
And that was just a littledetour to go up the mountain.

(13:21):
And you could see all the citylaid out at your feet with the
lagoon and all the oyster farms.
And you could see the canal sortof laid out through the city.
You could see the Canaldu Midi coming through it.
So it was a fun way to just sort of,and it just took a little detour.
You go up there and park yourcar and hop out and look at it.
But it kind of was for me orienting,what you knew you were going to see,

(13:43):
but you could finally see it for real.
And that was kind of fun to see it.
And then we drove right backdown to the town, five minutes
down the hill back again.
And then we just parkedright near the market hall.
And then just started exploring Sète.
Wonderful.
The octopus pie that they make there,is a little street food, which was
fine, just because it's something thatis, you know, really unique for there.

(14:06):
So we went in the market and bought that.
I don't know, maybe by mid-morningeverybody was already out, having big
platters of oysters, and fresh prawns, andbottles of wine everywhere, and I thought,
well, and it was just, I think it was justthe middle of the week, it wasn't anything
special, so I thought, well, okay, thisis the way to live, if you're in Sète,
you just have your big plate of seafood.
And it was, it's a small town, so itwas very easy to walk along and see the

(14:28):
canals and the pretty bridges, figureout what that looked like pretty quickly.
And we ran across a couple of thestatues of the guys that have the
jousting poles that knock each other off.
And I thought, okay, you know, youkind of had to know what that was,
but I've already done so much researchthat I knew exactly what that was.
And you're like, Oh, okay.
Yeah, that's kind of fun to imagine themgoing down these little canals, knocking

(14:50):
each other off the sticks in the summer.
It's like, I'm sure that's fun to watch.
Yeah, it is.
It is.
I love this stuff.
So Pamela, how much time do youthink you should dedicate to Sète?
Oh, I would say probably a day.
You know, if you got there early,and then, you know, just kind of
explored the town, and like yousaid, went up to the overview.

(15:12):
You could certainly spend the night,I'm sure it would be lovely there's
lots of cool things to look at,but I think a day trip is enough.
Do you eat, because I also saw that,when I asked you to rank your favorite
things, you put eating oysters in thelagoon at Sète as your number one.
So do you eat oysters andseafood at home a lot?

(15:33):
Seafood, yes, but I mean, we'renot, neither one of us are
big raw oyster fans at all.
We may have eaten them a couple oftimes for some, you know, interesting
occasion, kind of like this one was.
But I mean, I think if you were throughthis area in the summer, and you really
wanted to do a beachy type vacation,then this would be a fun home base,
because we actually drove down towhere the sandy spit is outside of

(15:56):
the town, it just stopped at a randomplace and just walked out to the beach.
And I was really impressed with how prettythe beach is, I mean it just goes on,
and on, and on, it's very sandy, it'slike pretty waves coming in, it's not a
rocky Mediterranean type of beach, andso we thought, oh, okay, well if you were
here prime time in the summer, I'm surethat'd be a great beach to go down to.

(16:16):
But if you're not doing it during beachseason, I think, like Pamela said,
probably three or four hours you cankind of see what there is to see in Sète.
If you're just kind of wantingto get a taste of what it is.
Because, as you said, I knew becauseI'd done all the research to find the
oyster shacks, and that was a realcool experience right outside of Sète
to just find one of these, you know,basically a wharf that's over the water

(16:42):
and they're bringing the oysters infor, I'm sure, distribution everywhere
in France and you just order up yourplate of whatever it is you want, then.
Again, we're not the biggest oysterfans in the world, but they actually
were very good here because theywere so fresh, and they don't taste,
you know, sort of fishy at all.
They were great.
We are from Texas, so we weren'tbig oyster eaters before, but now

(17:05):
in the Pacific Northwest, we'regetting good oysters, and I have to
say the ones in Sète were amazing.
I've never seen them that big before in mylife, and I loved them, so I'm a convert.
Oh, good!
And it was fun because you'resitting there, looking over
the water back towards that.
You can see the lagoon, all the peopleare zipping back and forth in their boats

(17:26):
as they're doing their oyster harvesting.
And then they probably broughtPamela's favorite dish, which
is cooked mussels as well.
So we had raw oysters and a big thing ofcooked mussels, steamed mussels, with a
big garlicky sauce that was really good.
And their local white wine, whichapparently that's the wine that you must
have if you're going to have the oysters.

(17:46):
So it was a very, you know, kind ofclassic Sète experience that, if you
were in that region, I think you woulddefinitely go do that because it was fun.
We went to the Tarbouriech Oyster Shack,and there's a couple of locations on that.
We went to the Saint Pierre one inLoupian, but there were two or three
on the lagoon, when I was doingthe research that you could go to.

(18:08):
And I don't think you had to makereservations the time of the year that
we did it, although we were there in themiddle of the afternoon, in the middle
of the week, it was maybe a third full,I don't think we would have had to have
reservations, but I would imagine thatif you did that during anything that
would be more like prime time, I wouldthink, absolutely, you'd probably have
to get a reservation to do that becauseit wasn't that big of a place and I bet

(18:30):
people are like lined up to do that,that know that that's a thing to do.
Yeah.
I'll put the, you were verygood, you put the exact names and
everything, so I'll put that in theshow notes or in the guest notes so
people can find it if they want to.
I haven't actually done this, whichis silly because I go by there,
as a matter of fact, I'm gonnago by there again on Monday, but
I'm probably not going to stop.

(18:53):
That's the thing, there's so manyplaces where I could stop, but
that was an excellent choice.
I'm glad you stopped there.
It was just very relaxing and,you know, if you could just sit
there and hang out and just lookat the pretty ocean almost anytime.
So, and it's right outside ofSète, so it made it very logical
to just pop in there and do it.
But you do need a car.
Yes, yes.
But at that point, we had a carbecause then we were on the way to

(19:16):
our next stop, which was Béziers,and so to get to these kind of stops
between there and Toulouse, I justthink having a car is really helpful.
Yeah, I mean, you don't have to haveto have a car, but it's really helpful.
You can do so much morewhen you have a car.
That's the way, yeah, you can drive tothe top of the mountain, you can go to
the oyster shack, you can go to all theselittle strange places, or if you see

(19:37):
something, you can just stop and turn offand take a look at it, so it's so easy
to get a car there and it's relativelyinexpensive, we just almost always do it.
And it sounds like you enjoyed theold part of the town of Béziers.
How, compare the feeling in the, maybePamela, tell me the different feeling

(19:57):
between Montpellier, Sète, and Béziersas far as the type of city that it is.
Well, Montpellier, like we said, being theuniversity town, seems a little bit more
established, bigger, a lot more going on.
Sète is definitely a vacation type feel,you know, you've got the shops, I mean,
real people live there, which is nice.
I always like to go places whereit seems like it's not just a fake

(20:19):
tourist area, and Sète definitelyhas a real feel to it, but smaller.
But Béziers was a big surprise.
I didn't really know what to expectand I think they've put in a lot of
work and money into the infrastructureand plazas and all sorts of things.
It's really, really nice and I reallyenjoyed it because it's a smaller city,

(20:39):
very easy to get around, some reallycool places, lots of nice things to see.
And then of course for me, a market,it was very fun to go antiquing and
fully market type stuff, which isone of my favorite things to do.
I think it was a really nice surprise.
And then we even ended up finding aMichelin recommended restaurant there, two
actually, a Sushi and then, of all things,a Spanish one and neither one French,

(21:03):
but it just, it had a lot of offerings.
I think that would be a definiteplace to stay in overnight, spend
a day there and especially if it'sa Market Day, in my opinion, or
a day when the churches are open.
We did have, that was our oneproblem, we kept going, the churches
were all closed when we were there.
A lot of them, not all of them.
It was a really pretty, it's a verycompact historical town with a cathedral,

(21:24):
kind of perched on the promontory abovethe river, and then you can do the path
that they've now built that was very easy,seemed relatively new, that takes you
right over the old bridge and then youcan look back up over that old bridge.
It's beautiful.
Mm-hmm.
It's stunning to look back up at Béziers,and all the old architecture that's there.
So.
I thought it was really, really pretty,and it had a bunch of Camino stuff

(21:47):
in it, which, that's not even on thisCamino path that I was on, but, you
know, like all these little towns, theyall connected to it somehow, and so I
ran across a bunch of Camino stuff justwandering around, and that was fun.
And like Pamela said, usually I don'tput restaurants on the list because
we just tend to kind of find whateverwe find wherever we happen to be, but

(22:08):
doing research online, the Pica Pica,tapas restaurant is on everybody's
list as, you know, blogs or whatever,and I was a little dubious because
sometimes that doesn't really meanit's that good, but it was excellent.
It was such a good, and it's a Michelinstarred restaurant, but not crazy priced
at all, and they had, you know, a verycreative tapas menu, which, like Pamela

(22:30):
said, was kind of felt more Spanishthan French, but it was excellent.
It was really fun and it wasright on their main square that
apparently they've just redone.
So somebody put a lot of moneyinto totally redoing that area
because it looks very, very newand beautiful at this point.
Yeah, so we were happily surprised withBéziers, given that we only basically
had two nights there, but basically onenight, because we got there late, and

(22:52):
then we just had one day to explore.
And I think you could see everythingin Béziers in one day, if you
went out and about, and lots ofshops, lots of restaurants, so
it was a very fun place to go.
I think it's worth spending thenight places though, that's kind of
our thing, because cities are justdifferent at night, or the restaurant
scene or the plaza or whatever.
Day trips are great when you haveto, but sometimes it's kind of

(23:14):
nice to be there in the evening.
It's a different vibe.
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah.
What I liked about Béziers too wasthat it started making you feel like
you were getting a little bit intothe Cathar area, because you could
start, you know, if you were using yourimagination, okay, this is where some
of these structures used to be or were,I guess that's the one saying from the

(23:35):
US that most people would probably knowfrom the Cathar time of somebody saying
kill them all and let God sort them out.
I mean, everybody's probably heardsome version of that statement.
If you know anything about theCathar period, but it was kind of
interesting that, okay, that's theplace where that took place and that's
the site of that particular thing.
And, you know, being in front ofthe church where that took place

(23:57):
is like, okay, that sort of made ithit home a little bit more where you
can say, all right, now you're kindof starting to get the feel of the
architecture and the churches thattook place in that period of time.
Yeah, so I spent a lot of timein Béziers when I was a child
because we spent vacations there.
We kind of stopped going whenI was maybe 12 or something,

(24:18):
we've mentioned it before, in passing inthe Cathar episode for definitely because
it's a huge part of the history there.
So I'm glad you enjoyed it and thatyou're telling us about it because
it's a place we, I don't think we'vementioned it enough and it's very nice.
And it's kind of logically on thepath between, if you're going either,

(24:39):
one way or the other and you'relooking for places to stop as you go,
it makes a very logical stop there.
And it'd be interesting to knowbecause we were sitting next to a
couple of guys that were staying atthe hotel that we were at, and they
come to Béziers every single year.
That's where they go every singleyear and they're in France.
And at least the impression that wegot from talking to them is that in the

(25:00):
last few years, the town or the districthas been putting a lot more money into
refurbishing it and making it muchmore nice and trying to make it more
touristy because they said it used tonot be that way, like 10 years or so.
That's right.
But in the last couple of years,the impression that we got was
that they've really, you know,spruced it up and made it very nice.

(25:21):
So that they could attract touriststhere, so it would be interesting
to see what your guys' take was.
When I was a kid, Béziers wasvery blue collar, you didn't
go there to admire the scenery.
It had a lot of history, it has a lot ofhistorical buildings, but they weren't
maintained to the standard that were,that, for example, Narbonne, which is very

(25:42):
close, and you didn't stop at Narbonne.
Most people, I think most visitorswould stop at Narbonne and not Béziers.
So it's interesting that youpicked Béziers over Narbonne.
It sounds like it was agood decision for you.
I was torn between that since I'm theplanner to try to pick where we're going.
And the only reason I didn't pickNarbonne is because the prior trip

(26:02):
that Pamela was mentioning, we hadstayed in some of the years in Provence
and Orange and some of the things.
We'd seen some of the big Roman sitesthere, and so I thought, well, we've seen
that side of it, and so I kind of wantedto go to Béziers because it was more, you
know, medieval Cathar feeling, at leastfrom what I could see from looking online,

(26:22):
it would kind of have been that flair.
And I'm glad we picked it, because itwas really interesting to go there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sounds wonderful.
Okay, where to next?
So then we got up the next day, and thatwas our journey that we were going to
go to Carcassonne by the end of the day.
But on the way, because as you mentionedbefore, we had a car, that gave us

(26:46):
some opportunity to kind of explore.
So the first thing that we went to wasLastours, the Cathar castles up there.
And you definitely have to havea car to get up to where that is,
but that was a really pretty sight.
Again, it was sort of like driving upto see Sète, it's just an easy drive,
you pop up to the front gate, you makea very short path, and there's a couple

(27:08):
of viewpoints that you can overlook,you know, the ruined Cathar castles,
sort of on the other side of a smallvalley, but, I mean, just incredibly
picturesque, very, very beautiful,you can see the castle still standing.
If I would have had more time, Iwould definitely have loved to go do
the hike, go all the way up to thecastles, but that's probably adding
a couple of hours to go do that.
But if anybody's there and has more timeand interest, I would definitely suggest

(27:32):
just do the hike to go to the castlesand you can walk right up to them.
But even if you don't have that time,you can just hop in, take a look at
it, you know, very, very picturesque.
Nobody was there.
You had it all to yourself.
So you kind of felt like you're in thisabandoned valley with abandoned castles,
all the mystery that goes along with that,but this definitely was a place to stop.
Yeah, so if you go on a weekend,or, there's families going up, you

(27:56):
know, hiking up to the castles.
But if you don't go on a weekend, whenI went with my friend Brenda, I think
we were pretty much the only ones there.
It's very scenic.
Yeah, it is scenic andit's not a difficult hike.
Like even, I mean, we did go up toall the way, I mean, I'm not a
super fit person, but I could do it.
Well, that was our only chance toreally see, you know, the Cathar

(28:19):
piece of history out where you wouldthink it would have looked like, you
know, as opposed to seeing it insideBéziers or some of the other cities.
This one really made you feel like, okay,here's this small valley that's sort
of isolated and fortified and here'ssome towers and, you know, I get it.
That's why they were backthere last line of defense.
So it was an interesting kind ofexperience to see it that way versus,

(28:41):
you know, some of the bigger cities.
Yep.
Yep.
Definitely.
And since we had a car and we werein that area, we went ahead because
there's a lot of wineries around there.
So that day we went to more ofa chateau type style winery.
So that was kind of fun becausethat was different than the wineries
we had been to around Montpellier,which were small, family owned.

(29:01):
This was more of the château style withbig formal gardens and fancy grounds and
a nice restaurant that was attached to it.
So we did a French food and wine pairing.
So that was, that's probably one more ofPamela's favorite things is you get, you
know, all the French courses of food.
Yes, I love the, love the winery,the restaurant was amazing and you
really got some really good food,which is what I'm into France for.

(29:24):
Yes, so what was the name of that winery?
I'm not finding it, I'msure you listed it, but...
That one is the Chateau Pinotier.
Oh, Pinotier, yes.
Oh yes, I've recommendedit to people, actually.
I think I went years ago,but... so what was that like?
It was really nice, it's obviously I guessa home or maybe some of the family lived

(29:44):
there or possibly we couldn't really, Imean, we walked around the grounds, which
are open, which was really nice, and Ithought that was kind of cool the way
they, you know, you could tell some peoplewere locals and they were just coming into
the grounds, some kids running around,looking at the gardens and playing.
So I guess when the gate is open,you can just kind of come in and
look around, which was nice and somenice gardens and a beautiful house.

(30:06):
And then a little chapelthat was very interesting.
Lots of history, obviously been inthe family for a long, long time.
Then you just walk across thislittle bridge and you go to the
restaurant, which is a very nice,newer looking set up, very modern.
Wonderful wines and food and serviceand, you know, lots of green area.
It was very nice.
The little village was one ofthose quintessential little, you

(30:28):
know, you drive through, there'sbasically one road, it's one way.
If you missed your turn, you have togo back around and get to where you
need to be, but it was very, verylovely, worth the stop for sure.
Wonderful.
That's cool.
And it was a fairly busy restaurantbecause, again, we might have
been the only tourist there.
If I was going to guess, that's whatI would guess, maybe there might have
been ten tables in there with a verynice set menu of very nice French foods.

(30:52):
And you know, with the winepairings that go along with it.
The Somme would come over andsort of describe each one.
But as far as I could tell, everybodyelse that was there were just having
regular business lunches on a Tuesdayor whatever it was, having same food and
same wines that we had, business as usualin the little small town of, you know,
let's have multi course meal and wine.
That's right, why not?

(31:14):
If you have a visitor, or you hostthe meeting at work or something, you
definitely take them out to a nice place.
Of course.
Wonderful.
Okay.
And then you went to Carcassonne, right?
Yeah, so our plan on Carcassonnewas based on, you know, a
lot of advice that I'd found.
The advice was get there at the end of theday and stay overnight versus get there in

(31:37):
the morning and be there with the touristsand leave, which was perfect advice.
I mean, it was similar advicethat we had gotten when we visited
Mont Saint Michel years ago.
Very similar kind of experience where,you know, and it, we kind of lucked out,
probably dumb luck, because by the time wegot there, and we stayed in a hotel that
would allow you to stay within the walls.
So there are the two hotels thatyou can do that with, one is the La

(31:59):
Cite, which is very, very expensive.
And the other one is the Best WesternDonjon Hotel, which is what we stayed in,
which I would recommend for one night.
It was perfect.
And so by the time you kind of park yourcar close and walk in, we just headed
to the ramparts, the museum first, andluckily, we got there just as they were
saying, Well, you know, I don't thinkyou're going to have time to walk the

(32:20):
ramparts and do the museum and castle.
And we said, well, we're goingto try it anyway, and they
now have the ramparts open.
I think this year is the first yearthat they've now got the entire ramparts
all the way around that you can walk.
But apparently, that hasn't beenthe case for a long, long time.
And again, we lucked out becausebasically everybody had gone and

(32:41):
the lady that was running it wasessentially walking behind us the whole
way, shutting the doors and shuttingthe towers as we were walking around.
And she said, no rush, youknow, just take your time, but
you're the last ones coming.
And so there was literally nobodyon the ramparts and you could
take your time meandering around.
And when we exited, they justshut that door behind us.
And so it worked out perfectly to do that.

(33:04):
At the end of the day, you know,fewer tourists, the better.
And then once we were done withthat, the tourists had kind of made
their way out of the town itself.
And so then we could just spendall the rest of the time just
wandering around and looking at allthe sites with much less tourists.
So that I think was nice.
Yeah.
If you're going to do somethinglike that, I would recommend that

(33:24):
you arrive in Carcassonne around3PM or something, especially in the
winter months, they close earlier.
In the summer months,they will close later.
But in the winter months, get there bythree, perhaps four, but that's kind of
pushing it, and then visit, go straightto the Chateau Contal, visit that, do
the walk around the ramparts and thenyou can look around the little shops will

(33:46):
probably stay open till 7 or something.
And we were very much there I thinkprobably off season and so I kind
of wondered you know, how many shopsand restaurants would be open but
there were an abundance of those openat night so there was no problem at
all finding a place to eat and shop.
Yeah, I think seeing the ambiance fromthe night and then kind of walking back
outside the gate, I did that after wehad dinner, I kind of did another little

(34:09):
stroll and looked at it all lit up atnight, and it's very pretty at night.
It is very nice, yeah.
And if you walk out, they don'tactually lock down the city,
it's not medieval times anymore.
People ask me this about theMont Saint Michel as well, like,
am I going to be able to walkin the city or they close down?
No, they don't.

(34:31):
The shops might be closed, but youcan still walk around the old city.
But if you go down to the oldbridge and look at the city from
the old bridge, it's really pretty.
Yeah, I did that the next morning, becauseI did exactly what you were suggesting.
I kind of wanted to do the walk, andit's not a long walk, but it's a very
different view to see it up on the hill.

(34:52):
Yeah.
And walking across the old bridge,the views going back on the
city is really, really pretty.
Yeah, it is.
It is.
And if you do that at night, youget the lit up chateau as well.
I've done it both time, both ways.
It's worth doing.
Some parts you have to go uphillquite a bit, but it's not forever.
It's not like a super strenuous again.
It's doable.
Well, we needed to do a walk to walkoff our cassoulet that we ate there.

(35:15):
So, you know, it's a very heartyfood, so we probably needed to
walk a little bit, to walk on.
That's fantastic.
So do you recommend Carcassonne?
People say, Oh, is it too touristy?
Is it worth going?
Yeah, I definitely would recommend goingbecause again, if you're trying to kind

(35:35):
of string out a logical, you know, pointA to point B, sort of a tour there.
I mean, it's a very logical place to stop.
Yeah.
But I don't, honestly, I don'tknow what you would do there if you
had more than sort of one eveningin the next day, at least for us.
Agreed.
I think it would be fine to stop there.
It's really pretty, but I think you cando it in basically half a day, you know,

(35:56):
and then get on to what your next stop is.
Definitely.
I think Americans would definitelyfeel like it's a bit Disney world,
but it's like, this is real.
I mean, I think that's the fun partfor us is like with the little shops.
When you think about history,they had little shops there
too, they were just selling realthings, not little plastic swords.
So, it is touristy, but in a way you getthat feel of a bustling medieval castle

(36:18):
in a way, but I think it's definitelyworth it if some people might think
it's a little touristy, but it's, Ithink it's definitely worth a stop.
Yeah, and if you, I mean, the moreyou know about the Middle Ages, the
more you can think about what wasactually happening long ago, the sort
of things that were happening long ago.
And you're totally right.
People were there selling theirstuff, and that little street

(36:40):
right into the town is perfect.
Hey, come get my... come buy my stuff.
So yeah.
And I didn't know about the seriesthat Kate Moss did about Carcassonne.
I had not run across that series.
The book, yeah.
And there's a series of books thatI guess were really, really popular
and they made a movie about it.
And so I at least read thefirst one and it was fun to

(37:02):
kind of, you know, walk around.
And she did a really good jobin her books of making it very,
very local to Carcassonne.
Describing in detail some of the places,and if you like those books, or are
interested in going there, maybe it'sworth reading the book in advance.
It's kind of fun to kind ofhave that fictionalized account,
but set in a real place.
Very fictionalized, butvery, very fun to read.

(37:24):
Yes, it's a good read.
And there's also a game namedCarcassonne that is interesting, but
has not much to do with the city.
We have that game.
That's what was kind offunny when we told our son.
We're going to Carcassonne.
He's like, oh, what?
Like the game?
So yes, we have that one.
It's a good game.
It just takes a long time to play, whichis why we haven't played it in a while.

(37:45):
But otherwise, it's a fun game.
Wonderful.
What came after Carcassonne then?
I assume Toulouse.
So while we had the car, that wasthe day that we drove up to Albi.
Ah.
So on the way we headed up to Albi first.
And knowing at the end of the day, wewere going to turn in the car, so that
was the last chance that we had to kindof do everything in the countryside.

(38:07):
But Albi was beautiful.
So we drove up there, stopped,you know, the cathedral is
amazing, you know, it's beautiful.
I'm not really sure I can probably do itjustice describing it, but I mean, it's
really, really beautiful, impressive.
The murals on the back with the LastJudgment it was completely amazing to
see, it's such a distinctive lookingbuilding from the outside where you

(38:28):
think, yeah, I think anybody that, youknow, wasn't getting with the king and
the pope probably thought, this is alittle imposing, so we better adopt the
program, so it's interesting to see.
I think that it's worth going tobecause it's just so different than
any... you know, you have cathedralsall over France, and they have a
certain look, and they're beautiful,but this one is just so different.

(38:50):
So I think it is definitely worth a stop.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Did you go into theToulouse Lautrec Museum?
No, because we somehow didn't have ourtiming exactly right, so we should have
done that first, but instead we walkedup to the cathedral first, and then
once we started looking at it, then wekind of got carried away with looking
at it and looking at it, and there'sso much to look at, and then when we

(39:10):
finally came out, it was lunchtime, andwe thought, well, should we get lunch?
But then Pamela volunteered to go overto where the museum was, only to find
out that that's when it was closed.
It had like, just closed, and so wethought, well, I guess let's just
get lunch here, which we did rightin the shadow of the cathedral.
So it was beautiful.
It was a beautiful sunny day, justlooking up at it the whole time.

(39:32):
And then we thought, well, we eitherneed to sit around for an hour or
we need to get on to Toulouse andthere's a lot of stuff to see there.
So we missed the museum, just becausewe didn't, we should have seen it
first and then done it in the reverseorder, but that's not how we did it.
Yeah, yeah, sometimes,yeah, timing matters.
I suppose you could have walked tothe little garden behind the museum.

(39:55):
I think that stays open.
Yeah, I mean, so that's really how weended up stopping at Rabastens because
that's, we kind of had a little bitof extra time, and that was literally
on the way, and otherwise, Pamelawould have said, why are we stopping
at this strange Camino stop as well?
Yes, Rabastens, I got to say, you'rethe first ones who have stopped there.
So why?

(40:17):
Well, I found it, because usually when Ido my, very intensive research of every
place that we are going, I also always doa check on the UNESCO World Heritage Map.
So I always go and dig in, and they'vegot a very good interactive map that
you can find any place in the region.
And I, I don't think I've ever beento a UNESCO place that wasn't worth

(40:38):
stopping, and given that it wasliterally right on the road, it was
a five minute detour off the mainroad, we just pulled over and saw it.
And I thought it was amazing becauseit's kind of like a lot of things that
we like probably by going to Europeand seeing it is incredibly complicated
and ornate, in a small town whereall the doors are open, there's not a

(41:00):
single soul guarding the place, whichis not the way it would be in the US.
It's probably been that way for hundredsof years, nobody messes with anything,
and you just walk in and see this thingthat's been there for so long, and
you're just amazed that it's still there.
It was a fun 30 minute stop to go.
Very good.
Yeah.
Excellent.

(41:21):
And then you went to Rodez as well?
No, after that, we, that was when wedrove back to the airport, dropped
off our car, and then that's whenthe last stop in Toulouse started.
Okay, because Rodez would havebeen out of the way quite a bit.
Okay, okay.
Yes.
All right.
So then you drop off the car atthe airport and you make your way
into Toulouse, you took the bus orsomething or train or I mean, or taxi?

(41:46):
We came back in an Uber because thatwas relatively easy and cheap to get
around in Toulouse, and Pamela had foundus an Airbnb right on Capitol Square.
So we were right in the heart of it.
And the day that we came in, I thinkit was Halloween, I didn't quite
realize how busy Capitol Square wasgoing to be, but when you're getting

(42:06):
there at night, and it's Halloween,it was a lot of people out there.
Yeah, there's usually lots of people.
If the weather is good, there's alwayspeople congregating or there's always
some sort of event or something.
Did they have like a stage andthings going on on the stage or no?
They didn't have a stage the time thatwe were there, but I think because we

(42:27):
were literally right on Capitol Square,I mean, we were tucked just right around
the, if you're facing City Hall, we werejust right around the left side of it.
So we literally walked the Capitol Squareevery single day, multiple times a day.
And there was always something going on.
Yeah.
But it seemed like, or just a lot ofpeople out, out and about, but it was
fun to kind of be there in the heartof the city to be located because

(42:49):
everything was so easy to walk in.
I definitely recommend citycenters if you can afford it.
Like, it might be a few euros more,but really it makes it better.
I think you make up for the lost time.
You're a little cheaper to stay out, likeyou say, but the amount of time you have
to spend walking to get into the citycenter, or an Uber or what have you, it
kind of, it's a wash, really, becauseit's just so nice to be able to pop

(43:11):
out and go see something like that, thecapital, I guess, the government building.
It's open, but then there's a door andthen it closes and it's like, there's
beautiful artwork inside there andwe knew that, but it's like, we would
walk by and the door would be closedagain and then we'd walk by and so
fine, the first day it was open, butwe thought, oh, we'll do that later.
And then it took us forever.

(43:32):
So it was very nice that you're rightthere and you can just, oh, okay.
It's closed.
Oh, okay, it's open.
You know, kind of nice to beright there where everything is.
Yeah.
That one's an official building.
So they close it a lot throughoutthe day and you never know
why it's like, Oh, okay.
Now they must have a signing, or a event,or press conference, or a wedding or...

(43:54):
Well, we moved because Elyse told us,make sure you go inside that and see it.
And like Pamela said, if we would nothave been on Capital Square, I don't
know that we would've made it intothat because the times it was open
was so sporadic, but it was worth it.
It was completely amazing theartwork that they had inside.
I mean, we saw it literally thelast day and I'm like, I'm so glad

(44:15):
we made it into this because it'samazing amount of art inside that.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So you took a private tour with Elyse.
How was that?
We did, yeah, so the first day that wewere there, after we turned in the car, so
the next day, we always like to try to dosome kind of an orientation to the city.
And so, the morning, we did the VictorHugo market tour, so that was, you know,

(44:36):
seeing the market, and it was a foodtour, but it was very fun, it was a
tour that was done in a way that I hadnot gone on a food tour before, so we
went into the market, with a small grouptour and went to all the stalls that
she recommended and essentially made apicnic basket and then came out of the
market and then went to a wine shop andthen basically had what we found at the

(44:58):
market and sort of had a little picnic.
That was a lot of funand a fun way to do it.
Nice.
And it was a good way to havelunch too at the same time.
What company did you do the tour?
Oh, it was Jessica.
I know her.
Okay.
Very nice.
Yeah.
She's great.
Yeah.
It was a lot of fun.
And, you know, all the places thatwe went to were very unique and,
you know, describing the uniqueToulouse sausage and the unique

(45:20):
Toulouse cheeses and the unique wines.
I mean, that was a great way to do that.
So she has a company calledTaste of Toulouse and you can
find her at tasteoftoulouse.com.
I know her, I've known her foryears and I've intended to have
her on the podcast for a long time.
Too many people on thepodcast, I don't know.
Well, I would highly recommend thembecause the food tour was excellent.

(45:41):
And like I said, it was fun because theydid it in kind of a market way that's
sort of different than the typical, youknow, stop at 10 different shops and
have a little tidbit, which are fun too.
But, this was a good way to seethe market and all the things
that they had there locally.
And so once we were full, thenwe met up with Elyse that day.
Well, I'll add one thing.
We went to a cheese shop.

(46:03):
Is it, Xavier?
Xavier?
Yes.
It was amazing.
That's the good one.
So there were a few stalls outsideof the market, and that was the
highlight of the food tour for me.
I liked it because they had the...the cheese expert that had the
collar and he happened to be there.
That was there, the father was there.
So the, the Godfather of Cheese,I guess, was there that day.

(46:26):
The Godfather of Cheese!
With his official collar thatsignified, you know, that
level of expertise of cheese.
And he was showing usaround some of the cheeses.
So that was fun.
That's wonderful.
Then we were all full and ready to go.
And then, we met up with Elyse and,hopefully we had a good time for
her as well because, you know, whatwas a two and a half hour tour?

(46:47):
I think four and a half hours later,we finally ended up at the bridge
and it was excellent, you know,and we were happy for every minute
that she was giving us the tour.
But that's always a great way tostart any tour of some kind of an
orientation to the city and thehistory and, you know, the lay of the
land, and so we got to see a lot onthat walking tour, so that was great.

(47:08):
Yeah, and if perchance she's not availablein person, she also has a VoiceMap
tour, but she likes doing the in personstuff a lot, so that's... that's great.
Yeah, Elyse was great, a lot of fun, Imean, so much information and history,
and at least for us as Americans,it's sometimes fun to have somebody
that's lives in another country, butjust happened to be from America,

(47:29):
because a lot of the questions thatyou have, they're like, yep, I thought
the same thing, or something thatyou're probably thinking about because
you're from America, but this is adifferent way that we do it here.
And so it was fun to have it that way.
It is true, just today I was listening toa podcast about Spain, Travel to Spain,
and it was two Spanish guys talking.

(47:50):
And I thought, this could almostbe Join Us in France, but for
Spain, because people ask me allthe time, is there a similar thing
for Italy or Spain or whatever?
And I, it really wasn't because theyhadn't lived in the US, so they didn't
know, they weren't aware of the thingsthat Americans would want to know about.

(48:10):
They were just telling you, theywere just two Spanish guys who spoke
good English, really good English.
But it was a little too Spanish I thought.
See that's the thing, you haveto be, I mean it's good if you're
local, but it's also good if youhave the perspective as well.
Yes, I think the food tour and thewalking tours are always fun to do.

(48:32):
And there's one more that I would mentionin Toulouse, because I've never gone
on a food tour like this either, but acouple of days later, we went on a food
tour called Toulouse Gourmet Tours.
And this is a gentleman, and he'sgot a website, so if you just Google
Toulouse Gourmet Tours, but he is achef who is now in Toulouse, and he

(48:53):
has a bicycle with a big cargo box inthe back, and he goes around Toulouse
and makes on site little tapas typedishes that are extraordinarily good,
and each one sort of has a history or atie in to what it is you're looking at.

(49:13):
So you'll be in front of Saint Serninor the Capitol Square or something
like that and he'll whip up this dishand everybody around is looking at you
thinking, how do I get on this tour?
He's making this very nice littledish and then he's got a very
interesting set of, you know, storiesabout what went on in that place.

(49:34):
And they're all a little bit off thebeaten path stories, so they weren't
like, you know, here's this cathedral andit was built by this guy, you probably
could have known that just by looking at.
All of the stories were some obscure,but very interesting story about
here's what happened here and here'swhat it has to do with, you know,
chocolatine or something like that.
And you're like, okay, well,that's very interesting.
But that was a lot of fun to do that.

(49:55):
I've never been on one that sort ofblended intense history with very
interesting dishes at the same time.
Sounds wonderful.
So, we have to stop talking.
We've been talking a long time.
But, I would like to know,when's your next trip to France?
Or are you ready to move on toa different country, I guess?
Well, we don't have one inthe hopper on the agenda next.

(50:18):
You know, but definitely in Toulouse,we really enjoyed that a lot,
and there's so much to see there.
Wonderful city.
Yeah, I mean, so we had fourfull days essentially there.
And you could have spent longer becausethere's just so much to see there.
But it's a big, vibrantcity with tons to see.
Now we'll have to be tryingto figure out the next place

(50:39):
to go to in France, I guess.
I think it would be fun to go to thesouth of France, you know, where Saint
Tropez, all that part, we've neverbeen to that part, and I kind of, maybe
our 60th birthday party will be, youknow, like going to France for that.
That would be fun.
It's very different.
It's very built up.
It's very densely built.
So it's not the same feelingat all as the rest of France.

(51:02):
I mean, the Riviera, theyreally put cement everywhere.
We haven't been there because we reallydon't, that's not usually our style,
we love history, we love going tothe various regions and seeing real
people, so it's one of those thingsyou have to go see it, but it's...
it's not our usual vacation, which isI think why we've kind of put it off.
Oh, it's wonderful.

(51:23):
Don't get me wrong.
It is wonderful, but it doesn'tfeel like southwest of France.
Southeast and Southwestare very different.
Very different.
Yeah.
We've a lot of times that we've goneto France, as I mentioned, we ended up
doing it on the not prime time, partlybecause that's just when our schedule
allows, but also on purpose to try toavoid the crowds and the heat, because

(51:46):
we've gone enough places where we'rejust kind of done with crowds and heat at
this point, if you don't have to do that.
So we've ended up going toa lot of places in France.
Either the March April time frame,which maybe isn't the optimal one,
but it ended up being great timesto go see a lot of places in France.
And we've also tried France severaltimes in the October to November time

(52:07):
period, like this trip that we justdid, or the year before we were in
Alsace and Champagne in the same region,sort of the same time period, the end
of October, beginning of November.
And normally you might think, like, well,that doesn't sound like the best time
to go, but honestly, there's a lot ofplaces in France, especially if you can
include a big city like Toulouse or Lyon.

(52:28):
Lyon was amazing.
Yeah, like just cities there'salways something going on.
There's always something fun to do.
And so even if you have a bad weatherday, you know, I would encourage people
to think about some of those areas inFrance, if you've got sort of an off
season trip that you want to take,because there's always something going
on in some of those places, and it'senjoyable almost any time of the year.

(52:49):
So we've had really good success in theOctober, November, and the March, April,
seeing a lot of those places in France.
Wonderful.
Well, Craig and Pamela, thankyou so much for talking to me.
You have been wonderful to talk to.
I wish you many more great tripsto France and, who knows, maybe
I'll see you in Toulouse someday.

(53:10):
That's right.
Well, we'll look forward tothe next podcast to give us
some new ideas of places to go.
That's right.
Okay.
Merci beaucoup.
Merci.
Thank you.
Au revoir.
Again, I want to thank my patrons forgiving back and supporting the show.

(53:32):
Patrons get several exclusiverewards for doing that, you can
see them at patreon.com/joinus.
And a special shout out this week tomy new Join Us in France champions:
Chandra, who became a groupiedu podcast at the yearly level.

(53:52):
And thank you, Colleen Butera and EllenConnard for editing your pledges up.
Would you join them too?
You can do it for as little as $3 amonth, but if you can afford it, I would
love to have you pledge more so youcan have access to more of the rewards.
And to support Elyse, goto patreon.com/ElysArt.

(54:15):
This week I published a reward called"Easter and the Crown of Thorns at Notre
Dame" for the higher level patrons,where I explain where you can see the
relic and about the knights who guard it.
Yes, knights.
Some people left reviews of myVoiceMap tours this week about
the Saint Germain des Prés tour.
I have enjoyed this tour twice.

(54:36):
I often get turned around and I thinkit's my problem and not the tours.
Well, who knows?
The tour is tested pretty thoroughly.
I just keep my phone openand look for street signs.
It's very easy to get turnedaround in a city you don't know.
Honestly, don't be too hard on yourself.
About my Marais tour,Excellent tour of the Marais.

(54:57):
I enjoyed learning a bit about itshistory and that it pointed out both well
known and unique stops along the way.
I enjoyed seeing the VictorHugo and Carnavalet museums too.
Yes, those are wonderful.
About my Ile de la Cité tour, I enjoyedthis tour immensely, particularly the
descriptions of the front of Notre Dame.

(55:17):
I could not follow it in order tomy ticket times, but it was really
easy to adapt the tour to my route.
Yeah, you can do that.
It's not super easy.
With the new Gothic Paris tour, youcan easily do it in any order you want.
But the others, it's not,you know, it's not ideal.

(55:38):
About my Montmartre tour, We did thistour in 2022 and I absolutely loved it.
The area can be quite crowded attimes and this tour allowed us
to appreciate the less crowdedparts and see past the tourists.
If you're not using a walkingtour you're missing out.
This is the best way to explore at yourown pace and learn about the neighborhood.

(56:01):
About my Gothic Paris Tour, I want morereviews of that one because it's brand
new and it doesn't have very many.
But this person was very sweet andsaid, I just enjoyed listening to
Annie's latest Paris walking tour.
This one about Paris's gothic jewels,I listened to it at home in the
hopes of returning to Paris soon.
Yes, you can do thatwith my VoiceMap tours.

(56:22):
Like all of Annie's tours, it iswell done with interesting historical
information, lovely photography,and enough practical information so
that the route is easy to follow.
I've been to these three sitesseveral times, but I still enjoyed
Annie's tours and descriptions.
I was especially glad to hear all ofthe details about Notre Dame's lovely
doors and the Sainte Chapelle statueof Mary, which is often overlooked.

(56:46):
I highly recommend this tour.
Thank you so much, whoever you are.
Please write more reviews of my Paris'sGothic Jewel tour, because it's new
and it needs a lot of reviews beforepeople will feel comfortable buying it.
Podcast listeners get a big discountfor buying these tours from my website.
It's best for me as well, because I getto keep more of what you pay instead

(57:11):
of giving it to Apple or Google.
But if you buy from my boutique,it's a manual process, so
don't expect it to be instant.
Like it would be if you werebuying directly from the app, but
I know most of you listening tothis podcast, plan your trips in
advance and we have time to do this.
You're probably not in a rush.
To use your codes, open VoiceMap,bottom right it says Tour Codes.

(57:35):
Tap on it, enter thecodes, download the tour.
And this is a digitalproduct that you own forever.
Even if you change phones, forexample, log in to your VoiceMap
account, and you can downloadall the tours on your own again.
Think of these tours like walkingaround Paris with your French friend.
A friend who loves history,architecture, and art, and

(57:56):
can't wait to share it with you.
Take me in your pocketwith my VoiceMap tours.
If you're planning a trip to Franceand you need personalized advice,
hire me as your itinerary consultant.
It's a busy time for these consults.
So book your spot early by goingto joinusinfrance.com/boutique.
All right.
Let's talk about The François Mitterrandsite of the Bibliothèque Nationale de

(58:19):
France, it's also known as the BNF.
There is one not too far from theLouvre, that's the BNF Richelieu that
we did a whole podcast episode about,but this one is the François Mitterrand.
It's a little further from the center,but it's a very interesting site.
And it just turned 30 years old.
It officially opened on March 30th, 1995.

(58:43):
It has since become a symbolof French cultural ambition.
You've probably seen photosof the four massive glass
towers shaped like open books.
That's the BNF in the 13th arrondissementin the Tolbiac neighborhood.
Today, the BNF is ranked among the fivelargest public libraries in the world.

(59:03):
It holds over 16 million documents,including printed works dating back
from the 16th century to today.
That includes rare books, ofcourse, that need constant care and
preservation, an enormous task carriedout by a dedicated staff of over
2,200 people, from conservators torestorers to librarians and archivists.

(59:25):
But the BNF is not justabout dusty old books.
Did you know that it alsocollects video games and costumes
from theater productions?
That's part of its mission to preserveFrench cultural output in all its forms.
And thanks to France's legaldeposit system, every single book,
newspaper, and magazine publishedin the country is archived there.

(59:49):
Not podcasts, however.
So you're going to have to,you're going to have to keep
downloading your own podcasts.
That adds up to 192 daily papers,850 weekly publications, and
about 80,000 new books every year.
We produce a lot of things in France.
The library is still going strong.

(01:00:11):
In fact, in 2024, it set anattendance, a new attendance record.
Since opening its doors, theFrançois Mitterrand site has welcomed
more than 23 million visitors.
Back in 1995, President FrançoisMitterrand called the library a
completely new kind of monument.
He said, the library is like a treethat draws its strength from its

(01:00:35):
roots and rises towards the sky.
30 years on, that boldarchitectural vision still feels
fresh and the BNF remains apillar of France's cultural life.
I think it's a lovely place.
And for people who've been toParis, perhaps many times, or
perhaps if you are in the 13tharrondissement, it's definitely
worth a stop to take a look around.

(01:00:57):
They have permanent exhibits,they have temporary exhibits, they
have all sorts of things going on.
All public libraries do in France.
And that one is a particularly good one.
If you're visiting Paris oranywhere in the Ile de France
region soon, here's a tip that canreally save you time and hassle.
Yes, you can now buy your Metro,bus, tram, and RER tickets

(01:01:18):
directly on your smartphone.
It's not totally new, but it'sgetting better all the time to where
I feel comfortable recommending it.
You don't need to stand in longlines at the ticket machines just
to grab that one ride that you need.
All standard tickets are availablevia the app, the only exception is
the annual Navigo pass, but that'susually for people who live in Paris.

(01:01:42):
That still requires aphysical card for now.
So to get started, you havea couple of easy options.
You can use IDF Mobilité,Bonjour RATP or SNCF Connect.
With SNCF Connect, you can also addyour tickets to your Apple Watch.
These apps are reliable, userfriendly, and they work across

(01:02:05):
the entire public transportationnetwork in the Paris region.
And I was surprised that SNCFConnect, you can load tickets for
the Metro, but you can, I tried it.
It works.
It's new.
As of January 2025 there'salso the new prices.
You can buy a single ride ticketfor 2.50 for the Metro and the RER.

(01:02:26):
Or 2 Euros for bus and tram,and it's valid across the
whole Ile de France system.
And Ile de France is the Paris region.
It includes Paris proper, but alsoseveral departments around Paris.
If you prefer something physical,but still convenient, and I end up
recommending this to a lot of peoplestill, when I do itinerary consults,

(01:02:49):
you can get the Navigo Easy card.
It costs just three euros and youget the physical card and you can
load it with tickets or day passes.
It's perfect for short visits.
It's also very good for peoplewho are traveling with children,
for example, because they maynot have their own smartphones.
And so having a card makeslife much, much easier.

(01:03:11):
The bottom line is using one of theseapps or Navigo Easy card will help you
avoid the crowds and get moving faster.
It's a smart move, and it will helpyou have a smoother travel in Paris.
My thanks to podcast editorsAnne and Christian Cotovan
who produced the transcripts.
Next week on the podcast, an episodeabout discovering France with Australian

(01:03:33):
travel and food writer Alexandra Lalacque.
Thank you so much for listening,and I hope you join me next time so
we can look around France together.
Au revoir.
The Join Us in France travelpodcast is written, hosted, and
produced by Annie Sargent, andCopyright 2025 by AddictedToFrance.

(01:03:53):
It is released under a CreativeCommons attribution, non-commercial,
no derivatives license.

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