May 25, 2025 • 57 mins
What makes a trip through France truly unforgettable? In this episode of the Join Us in France Travel Podcast, titled Memorable France - Exploring Historic and Scenic Locations, host Annie Sargent chats with Ken Ives about his 25-day journey through some of the country’s most meaningful places.
Ken is a thoughtful traveler from California who planned a route filled with both beauty and history. He shares what it was like to stand in the silence of Oradour-sur-Glane, see 29,000-year-old cave art in Pech Merle, and take in sweeping views of the Lot Valley. Along the way, he visited Poitiers, Sancerre, Rocamadour, the Camargue, and more.
They talk about how to mix slow travel with big moments. Ken gives practical tips on hotels, restaurants, driving in rural France, and managing travel with limited mobility. He also shares some memorable meals, like gardiane de taureau in the Camargue and Crottin de Chavignol pasta in Sancerre.
If you’re searching for a deep, rewarding France itinerary with local flavor and historic depth, this episode is packed with ideas. It's perfect for listeners who want to go beyond the usual tourist circuit.
Subscribe to Join Us in France on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite app to discover new places, hear real stories, and plan smarter trips.
Table of Contents for this Episode
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:15):
This is Join Us in France, Episode547, cinq cent quarante-sept.
Bonjour, I'm Annie Sargent and Join Usin France is the podcast where we take
a conversational journey through thebeauty, culture, and flavors of France.
Today, I bring you a conversationwith Ken Ives about his magical
25-day journey in France.
(00:38):
From exploring historical battlefieldsand ancient caves to encountering the
stunning wildlife of the Camargue,Ken shares captivating stories and
hidden gem I think you'll enjoy.
This podcast runs on chocolatine,caffeine, and the support
of lovely humans like you.
You book itinerary consults, take myVoiceMap tours of Paris, ride shotgun in
(01:02):
my electric car, or even slip me a feweuros on Patreon, and I love you for it.
Want to keep me going and skip the ads?
There's a link for that in the show notes.
Head to joinusinfrance.com/boutiqueand vive les podcast fans!
For the magazine part of the podcastafter my chat with Ken today, I'll
(01:24):
discuss the changes coming to French tollroads that you will need to know about.
If you want all the links and thefull transcript of this episode,
you'll find them on the episodepage at joinusinfrance.com/episodes.
(01:49):
Bonjour Ken Ives and welcomeback to Join Us in France.
Bonjour, Annie, and Iam delighted to be back.
I had so much fun the first time,just had to come back again.
Wonderful, thank you so much.
So you had another great trip to France.
Tell us when this trip took placeand how many days you were in
France, and how you got around.
You know, just tell us briefly, we startedhere, went there, there, there, et cetera.
(02:12):
Okay.
I don't know if I can do it brieflybut, it was in basically October,
most of the month of October of 2024.
We're in 2025 now, right?
Okay.
Yes.
So it was a little later than Iwould have preferred to go, but
there were various family eventsthat just gave us that window.
(02:35):
So that's the window we took.
So flew to Paris, like always.
Spent a couple days in Parisjust decompressing and trying
to power through the jet lag.
Then we took a train downto Fontainebleau, spent
overnight in Fontainebleau.
I wanted to hike in the Fontainebleauforest, so I got to do that, and
(02:56):
also wanted to see the Château deFontainebleau, which I had been told was
sort of Versailles without the crowds,and I think that's pretty much right.
We rented a car inFontainebleau, drove to Sancerre.
Uh-huh.
And we stayed in Sancerre for a week.
We met my son and ourfour-year-old granddaughter there.
And my son and I, did a week ofFrench class at the Cœur de France
(03:20):
language school there, which I thinkyou've talked about on other podcasts.
Yes.
And I'll put in a plug for these folks.
It's a great place.
Cœur de France, yes.
So after Sancerre, we splitand went our separate ways.
My wife and I went to Poitiersfirst, and then did a kind of a
(03:40):
swing through southeastern France,Poitiers and then down to Cabreret.
Yes, Cabreret.
Oh, so that's the Pech Merle thing.
Right, it's the town where the Pech Merlecave is in the bluffs above the town.
Yeah.
We stayed there one night.
We went through, let's see, Limoges.
(04:00):
We stayed in Limoges, but the reasonwe were in Limoges was to see something
you've talked about for an entirepodcast, which is the town there that
the SS destroyed during World War II.
There was a massacre andjust a... an ugly story.
But I thought it was one that... I'ma history nutcase, I wanted to see it.
(04:21):
And my wife even, who isdecidedly not a history nutcase,
she had even heard about it.
She said, "Oh, yeah,I've heard about that."
Yeah, Oradour-sur-Glane, yes.
Oradour-sur-Glane.
We went there prepared tobe depressed, and we were.
Stayed overnight.
Yeah, it does not disappoint that way.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, it's... it's just an awful story,and you find yourself just getting
(04:41):
involved in... at least I did lookingat, like, that rusting car and wondering
who the owner was, and "oh, I hope hesurvived," and you know he really didn't.
And the cemetery is,to me, was very moving.
There are tombs on the surface,these are family crypts there.
And sitting on the crypt they put littleplaques with people's names in them.
(05:04):
I saw one tomb, family tomb therethat had eight people's names
in a row all with the same deathdate on the date that the SS came.
It was just, like, eight peopleout of one family, you know?
That's terrible.
Yeah.
Anyway, we then went on downinto your part of the world.
Did a swing down and saw Carcassonne.
(05:26):
Went to Béziers.
And then kind of we went to a town on theMediterranean, it's called Le Grau-du-Roi.
Yeah, Le Grau-du-Roi, very nice place.
Yes, it was... I was looking around.
This was the part of thetour that was for my wife.
Her idea of a good vacation is beach,sunshine, gentle breeze, feet up in the
(05:47):
air, reading a good book for several days.
So I was looking for ahotel that was on the beach.
And actually, in Southern France,those are not as common as you'd think.
A lot of them actuallysit up on cliffs and such.
You get great views, but then you got toclimb down the cliff to get to the water.
So we stayed there for three days,and while we were there, we were
right on the edge of the Camargue,so we spent three days exploring
(06:10):
the Camargue and giving my wife somefeet-in-the-air-reading-a-good-book time.
And then we finished up in Avignon.
We spent three days in Avignon, andthen took the TGV back to Paris.
All right, excellent.
Okay.
So we've decided, the two of us, toconcentrate on a few things that you
particularly enjoyed and that we haven'ttalked about so much on the podcast.
(06:32):
And the first is the thingsthat you did in Poitiers.
We haven't done anepisode on Poitiers, yet.
So, tell us what you found thatyou really enjoyed in Poitiers.
Okay, well I should warn everybody that weonly just barely saw the city of Poitiers.
We were close, but I went therebecause I specifically wanted to
(06:52):
go to the Poitiers battlefield.
There were actually two battles ofPoitiers, by the way, in history.
We're talking about the oneduring the Hundred Years' War.
One of the most important battles inFrench history, and the French, I don't
think, even talk very much about itprobably because the French suffered
just a horrible, humiliating defeat.
They had all the advantages andthe English beat them anyway.
(07:15):
In fact, the King of France was captured.
One of his sons was captured, and awhole slew of knights and counts and
bishops and such, all were capturedand imprisoned in England and ransomed.
In fact, King John of Franceactually died in England.
France never raised the entire ransom.
Raising the king's ransombankrupted France for the next,
(07:36):
geez, like, almost a century.
So it was quite importantin French history.
Like most medieval battles, wedon't know a heck of a lot about it.
We do know sort... We know whereit happened, and a small piece
of the battlefield has actuallybeen preserved as a park.
The rest of the battlefieldis private property.
There are houses on it soyou can't necessarily see it.
(07:57):
But you can go there and... Forme, I could go there and sort of
envision the armies fighting there.
So anyway, I want to go for that.
And that's called theBataille de Poitiers?
Yes.
I think there's a... Yeah, letme look at my map real quickly.
What you'll find on, at least onGoogle Maps, it's called the Memorial
(08:20):
Historique Champ de Bataille.
If you put in your browser, Battleof Poitiers 1356 was the year,
you have to specify which one.
Yeah, because there's a 700 andsomething as well, like you mentioned.
Yeah.
And that one happened north of Poitiers.
This is actually a little bit south ofPoitiers, right on the Moisson River.
(08:41):
You have to find it because it's noton a main, what is now a main road.
But there's a long ridgethere that the British used
to great effect and... anyway.
And beat the crap out of us another time.
They did, yes.
The Hundred Years' War is a greatstudy in how to lose all the
battles and still win the war.
Yeah, yeah.
(09:01):
Because in the end, France cameout ahead, you know, but...
But it took 100 years.
Yes.
So we went, saw the battlefield there.
Near the battlefield, there'salso a medieval abbey.
It was there during the Battleof Poitiers and actually
figured slightly in the battle.
At the time, it was calledthe Abbaye de Nouaillé.
(09:22):
And it's now, there's a coupleof towns merged so it's now the
Abbaye de Nouaillé-Maupertuis.
But nonetheless, thatwas really a neat place.
It's something that you know, it's offthe beaten path and nobody's ever seen it.
In between, there's the Moisson River,and the valley of the Moisson River
is a very popular place for hiking.
(09:45):
There's an area called the Bois dela Garenne pretty much between the
battlefield and the abbey along theMoisson River that just criss-crossed
with hiking paths and just a neat area.
Yeah.
So you got all the things I like here.
You've got history and you've gothiking, and I'm a happy camper.
(10:06):
Yeah.
That's good.
And then the town, I should mentionthe town of Nouaillé-Maupertuis.
I'm trying hard here.
Is a very small place.
There's one restaurant there,and nothing much in the area.
So, one of the restaurants we wentto was in Poitiers and you would
never think that I'd be singing thepraises of a fast food restaurant.
(10:29):
But I'm going to singthe praises of this one.
There is a... I had never heard of it,but there's a small chain of fast food
restaurants, I think they have maybe15 or so scattered across Southern
France and it's called Le Brut Boucher.
Le Brut Butcher.
The Brut Butcher.
That chain was founded by a family ofbutchers, and they are all about the meat.
(10:55):
They're not about anything else.
It's the meat.
They advertise they use only thehighest grade French Charolais beef.
And you know what?
You can get a hamburger.
My wife did, and she said itwas a really good hamburger.
But you can also get steak.
Aha.
In France is, you know, I don'tusually recommend steak in France.
(11:17):
It's not what we do best.
So it's good to know that there it's good.
No, it is not.
I got to tell you, I've had afew French steaks, and they were
all disappointing except here.
Yeah.
Well, that's great.
This was the best steak I've... Oneof the best steaks I've ever had.
I got this, I don't knowthe French name for it, it's
basically a flank steak, sliced.
Nice flank steaks, slices offlank steak cooked exactly
(11:40):
right, with roasted new potatoes.
There's a huge drink list.
Of course, they've got soft drinks, butthere's a long list of wine and beer also.
And they also have, by the way, chickenand duck and a couple different kinds
of steak, and yes, you can get burgers.
Uh-huh.
Really good.
So flank steak in French is bavette.
Okay.
(12:00):
B-A-V-E-T-T-E.
Okay.
It's also one of my favoritesbecause it, it's usually tender.
It was really good.
And, you know, you walk in andthey've got this automatic kiosk.
We went in there, and it took us awhile to, you know, read and figure out
because my wife speaks almost no Frenchand I speak, eh, enough to get by.
(12:21):
But we order, then we go... And thenyou go to the counter and you pay and
they hand you your drinks, and theyhand you one of these pager gizmos.
You go to your seat.
It was maybe three or four minuteslater, the pager goes off, and I went
and get our burger and our steak, and itall comes in, in cardboard trays, okay?
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's not high dining,but it was really good.
(12:44):
We were both really impressed with it.
So anyway, so we went inthere for dinner that night.
And the next day after we toured theAbbaye de Nouaillé, we went to the only
real restaurant in the town, which Ithink was called L'Auberge de l'Abbaye.
It's a kind of a... Oh, I would you saykind of a bar/restaurant, but really
(13:09):
small place, very friendly, very informal.
And I like that too, so...
So, anyway, we had a lot of fun there.
Very good.
Sounds like it's a fun area, and notone that a lot of people have mentioned.
You have a knack for going toplaces that other people don't.
I do.
You'll frequently find me out onthe farthest point of land sticking
(13:31):
out into the farthest ocean awayfrom wherever I am, or on the top of
the highest mountain or something.
I just have this thing about that.
Yeah, yeah.
And my wife has suffered through itfor, well, we just had our 50th wedding
anniversary, so she's suffered...
Oh, wow.
Congratulations, you guys.
... suffered with- through it for a few years.
Yes.
For a couple of years, yes.
(13:52):
So I just found this abbey you'rementioning, Abbaye de Nouaillé-Maupertuis.
That's quite a mouthful.
Yes, it is.
But it looks very nice.
It looks very medieval.
Let's put it that way.
It's medieval.
It's a walled, fortifiedabbey with a moat around it.
Now, the moat and the fortificationswere not there during the battle.
(14:12):
They did it after?
They're an later edition probably.
I mean, this was not a safe place tolive during the Hundred Years' War.
Yeah.
But anyway, by the 20th century,it was pretty much in ruins, and
I believe that it's now owned...I think it's owned by the town.
I think it's owned by thetown of Nouailles-Maupertuis.
(14:34):
And they've done some restoration,and it's... well, it's small, I
mean, you can walk through andsee pretty much everything you're
going to see in 15 or 20 minutes.
But then if you want to... You can doa hike around the moat and such, and
then out into La Garene, we spent acouple of hours in the town altogether.
That's cool.
Yeah.
So very nice.
(14:54):
There is a church in the abbey thatis open sometimes and not others.
If the church happens to be closed,you can go get the key from the
Mairie, which is... The Mairie isactually in the abbey gatehouse.
And so we did that, and somebody therepicked up the key, which was this big...
(15:15):
It's a key that's, like, a foot long.
It's got to be original.
And we went over to unlock thechurch, and then discovered that the
church was actually closed that dayfor a special event, and he couldn't
unlock it, couldn't let us in.
So we didn't get to see the insideof the church, but nonetheless.
That's always a goodthing to try, by the way.
If you went somewhere and you wouldreally like to go into the church
(15:38):
or into a tiny museum that's onlyopen occasionally or whatever, it's
always worth a try to go to the Mairieand see if they'll open for you.
Sometimes the right person with the key isthere, sometimes not but it's worth a try.
Well, this guy was... He was reallyfriendly and he really wanted to show us
the church, and he was just so apologeticwhen he couldn't let us in that day.
(16:02):
It was like, oh man, he thoughtwe were going to be mad or
something, but we weren't.
Very nice.
All right.
Are we ready to move on to Pech Merle?
Another place that you really enjoyed.
Oh, yes.
Pech Merle is near Saint-Cirq-Lapopie,so it's closer to Toulouse.
Right.
The Lot department I believeit is, if I remember right.
I think so, yeah.
(16:24):
And it's a beautiful,beautiful painted cave.
So tell us why you enjoyed it so much.
Most of southern France is underlainby limestone, which means that you've
got caves all over southern France.
And something on the order of 200 ofthose caves they've discovered paleolithic
cave art, you know, stuff drawn on thewalls by very early humans in Europe.
(16:48):
Out of those 200, there's just a handfulof them that you can actually go in.
Those paintings, obviously,they're delicate.
They cannot be replaced.
You can't screw this up, and we havescrewed it up a couple of times.
I'm sure you're familiar with the storyof the Lascaux cave, and my understanding
is that many of the paintings in theLascaux cave you can't really even
(17:12):
see anymore, if you could go in.
They don't let anybody into thecave, but they're still trying to
control the damage that was doneby tourists, not intentionally.
It's just a matter of, if we couldgo in the cave and view the paintings
without any light and without breathing,then it would be no problem at all.
(17:33):
Okay?
But humans going in the cave, it's asmall area, and we breathe and we breathe
out carbon dioxide and water vapor, andwe change the atmosphere in the cave.
And in the case of Lascaux, changingthe atmosphere allowed molds to
start growing on the paintings.
Yeah, it's green moldthat keeps growing, yeah.
Yeah.
And how to kill the mold withoutkilling the painting is something
(17:55):
we haven't really figured out yet.
Anyway, so most of them are closed.
Pech Merle is one of the few whereyou can actually go in the real cave
and still see the actual cave art.
I'm always for the realthing, rather than a mockup.
So that's why we went.
That was the main reason to go there.
(18:16):
I should mention that there's,even if you don't like cave
art, that area is just gorgeous.
The Lot valley and the Célévalley are just fantastic.
In fact, when we were in Cabreret, it wasone of those days when it was raining off
and on a little bit, and from our hotelroom, which was looking out over the Célé
river, we looked and we're in the sunshineand it's raining at the same time, and we
(18:41):
looked out, and lo and behold, we ran andgrabbed our cameras and we got pictures
of a double rainbow over the Célé valley.
Very nice.
Just awesome.
Anyway, Pech Merle Cave.
It has a bunch of paleolithiccave art inside that cave.
And the cave art is just fascinating.
(19:02):
The stars of the show are a coupleof horses painted on a wall in there,
but there's several hundred figuresand paintings and so on and so forth.
And our ancestors painted what they saw.
There are pictures of mammothsand of horses and cave bears
and this sort of thing.
(19:24):
Yeah, it's interesting because theypainted what they saw, but they
didn't paint everything that they saw.
So there's very fewbirds in painted caves.
There's very few people.
There are few, there are few, but...
And in Pech Merle, there's one thatappears to be a man, and then there's
several other sort of stylized femalefigures, which they're not really
(19:50):
a picture of a woman so much as apicture of parts of a woman, you know?
Breasts and hips.
Yes.
With no head.
And large breasts and large hips.
But nobody's sure about the meaningof those, if there is a meaning even.
Okay, so you're going to see thesefantastic paintings, but you have to
be really careful, so people need toknow that there are a bunch of rules.
(20:15):
The obvious one, there's no food,no drink, no chewing gum, no
smoking in the cave, obviously.
Also, no photographywhatsoever, flash or not.
There are very strict limits on thenumber of people that can be in the
cave at one time, and also the totalnumber that can go through in a day.
I think it's 25 people at a timeand a maximum of 700 people per day.
(20:39):
Which means that it's a verywell ventilated cave, naturally.
Because 700 people is a lot of breathing.
Yeah.
Your time in the cave is limited.
Believe it or not, it's 43 minutesthat you're allowed in the cave.
The scientists have figured this out.
I mean, they sit and they figureout how much we breathe out and
so on and so forth, and how muchcan the cave take and so on.
(21:00):
You put all that together,and it's obvious that, first
off, the tours are scheduled.
There's a certain number ofpeople, 25, counting the guide,
that can go through at once.
Those tours are on a schedule, and whenit's scheduled to leave, it has to leave.
If you're late, you aren't going.
Yeah, yeah.
You have to stay with your guide,and obviously, when you think about
(21:24):
that, it means you really needto make reservations in advance.
Yes, you do.
And I would recommend makingthem very far in advance.
We made ours a few months in advance.
The tours, by the way, aremostly in French, but there
are English tours available.
They have very good guides in English.
I mean, some of themare better than others.
(21:45):
I've heard a lot of them guide in thecave and, my favorite is a young man.
But, you know, it doesn'tmatter, they're all pretty good.
And you do have to reserve,go to their website, I'll
put a link in the show notes.
And if you see nothing, it'salways worth calling them.
They speak English, so don't worry ifyou don't speak very good French, because
(22:08):
they're not very good at websites, okay?
It's happened to me that theirwebsite said it was full when
the place was almost empty.
And that's because they don'tmanage the website very carefully.
We didn't have trouble with their website,but I did have a problem, which was,
when you make your reservation, you paywith credit card, you tell them you're
(22:28):
going to pay with a credit card, and itkicks you to an external website that
manages their credit card payments.
Sure.
That website was 100% French,and we ran into a problem there.
It simply would not take ourcredit card and it kept making
the reservation, but then it saidit couldn't process the payment.
(22:50):
For no known reason.
I tried several times, it wouldn't do it.
I came back a day later and triedagain, it still wouldn't do it.
And there was no explanation of why.
And then I just pulled out my numbertwo credit card and gave it that credit
card number and everything worked fine.
But I have no idea to this day what wasgoing on there, but we got through it.
Right, right.
(23:11):
So anyway, when we went, we checkedthe day we were going to be there,
and I looked, and there was, that day,there was one tour in English, and
it was at, I forget what, might'vebeen, like, 2:00 in the afternoon.
So we basically just builtour day around that tour time.
Got there in plenty of time.
There is a museum that you can go throughwhile you're waiting for your tour.
(23:32):
Yes, and it's good.
I'll say, so I've been to Pech Merlemany times, and usually, I don't
take the time to go into the museum.
But one time, I had a cold,like I do today, maybe I have
too many colds, I don't know.
And I decided, "No, I'm not going toinfect everybody in the cave, I'll just
stay out." And I had driven some peopleto the cave, and I took the time to look
(23:54):
at the museum, and it's really good.
There's a lot ofinteresting stuff in there.
I agree.
it was a very... In fact, I could'vespent more time in the museum, but we
reached the point that... They tellyou, I think you're supposed to check in
for your tour, I think it's 20 minutesbefore tour time or something like that.
So not wanting to be late...
It's 15 minutes before tour time, yeah.
We got there early, figuredout where to go and all that.
(24:17):
It's pretty, I mean, it'spretty self-explanatory.
You just walk down those stepsand you wait in that area and your
guide's going to come and call you.
It was pretty easy.
And our guide spoke verygood English, was very nice.
I thought, the way they did it...Now, our guide was very good.
Remember, you're limited in time.
You can't sit there... You wouldlike to sit and look at that painting
for 20 minutes, but you can't.
(24:39):
You have to look and then move on and shewas very good at keeping us moving, and
also making sure that everybody could getthere and see what they wanted to see.
And the way they do that, by the way,if you think, a cave, it's very hard
to get 25 people in one spot in a cave.
In fact, you can't do it.
So what they do is, when you start yourtour, they give you a little, I guess it's
(25:00):
a little radio receiver, it kind of lookslike the old Walkman with this little
thing, and then a set of earbuds, andthe guide has a microphone, and when she
talks, you can hear it in your headset.
So you can hear her even, if she's upat the front of the group and you're
clear at the back, you can still hearwhat she's saying, and she can tell
people in the back, "Okay, you folksmove on up now," that sort of thing.
(25:24):
The other thing they do, by the way,people should be aware of is, again,
we're trying to protect the paintingsso no more lighting than is necessary.
You walk into a part of the cave,the guide turns the lights on.
As you walk out, sheturns them back off again.
So most of the cave is in darkness exceptwhen there's actually people there.
Yeah, and it's also great because yougather around and she tells you where
(25:46):
to stop, and then she turns on thelights and you're like, "Oh." You know?
Yeah, yeah.
And she had a couple technicalproblems with the lighting,
and just about managed anyway.
There was one area of the cave wherethe lights wouldn't come on for
some reason, so she had a small,like a pen light, and she used that.
She had two of them and she put oneon one side and then she stood on the
other side so she could illuminate thepainting for us so we could see it.
(26:09):
Oh, I've never run into that problem.
Huh.
Interesting.
Yeah, yeah.
It was interesting.
Now, one thing everybody seems to beinterested in how old are these paintings,
and that turns out to not be as easy aquestion to answer as you might think.
What I can tell you after digging arounda lot is that Pech-Merle, one of the
(26:30):
reasons it was so well preserved wasthat our ancestors used that cave.
By the way, cave bears and allother kind of animals did too, and
then at some point there was a rockfall that blocked the entrance.
So nobody went in for a long time.
And then I believe the 1920s somekids found another entrance, a very...
(26:52):
It was small but they were able tocrawl down through it and get into
the cave, and it turned out that thelocal priest was an amateur historian,
archeologist, and he encouragedthose kids and he helped explore the
cave and document everything there.
Anyway, where I'm going with this is thatthe scientists have been able to date
that rock fall at about 10,000 years ago.
(27:15):
So first thing we know is that everythingin the cave is more than 10,000 years old.
The second data point come from...One of the best techniques for
dating things is carbon-14.
I'm sure you've heard of that.
But it only works for organic things.
Yeah, it has to contain carbon.
Or you can't date without carbon.
(27:36):
Yeah, and the paintings, the paintings inPech-Merle, in some caves they used soot.
Yeah, chalk.
Carbon black for their black colors,but in Pech-Merle they did not.
The paints there are all inorganicso you can't date them, but on one
of those horses, those stars ofthe show, those horses, up in the
(27:56):
mane of one horse the scientistsfound a little particle of charcoal.
And they got enough of it that they wereable to date the paintings, and they
come, turns out the paintings of thehorses were done about 25,000 years ago.
Right.
Okay, which is, if you thinkabout that, that's 250 centuries.
(28:17):
Here in the US something that's100 years old is really old, okay?
And you know, if it's one century, it'sold, and this is 250 centuries ago.
Then the second thing we cansay is on the same wall with the
horses there is a fish painted.
You won't notice the fish unlesssomebody points it out to you because the
(28:38):
horses were painted over the top of it.
Yeah, they did that a lot.
Which tells us that the fish isolder than the horses, so the fish
is more than 250 centuries old.
How much older?
We don't know.
But anyway, it's fascinating.
Yeah, it's fascinating, yeah.
Their best guess is that the earliestpaintings in there might be as
much as 28,000 years old maybe.
(29:02):
But for example, that fish, we knowit was painted before the horses.
It could have been 10 minutes before orit could have been 1,000 years before.
Just don't know.
Right, we don't know.
And Pech-Merle is a prettyeasy cave to visit as well.
I mean, there are some stepsbut it's developed well.
The path is all paved.
Oh, yeah.
So it's smooth, you know?
(29:23):
Paved path and there arelots of hand rails and such.
This is not always the case.
There are some caves you visitin France that are pretty rough.
Like Grotte de Niaux for example,further south, the Grotte de
Niaux, it's not as easy to visit.
My wife and I we're in ourmid-70s and my wife is starting
(29:44):
to have some mobility problems.
She has some metal joints that just,walking is something that she doesn't want
to do a whole lot of, and she was ableto negotiate the cave just fine, and she
said... Her comment about it was she said,"You know, even without the paintings
the cave is really neat." You know?
It's true.
Yeah.
Yeah, she really enjoyed it, andyou're limited to 43 minutes so
(30:06):
it's not going to be a real longhike, and it's mostly level.
There are some steps and obviouslyit's not even, but my wife managed
it okay, I managed it fine.
It's one of them that, where you don'tneed it to be in... You know, there's
others, Font-de-Gaume, for example.
To get to the entrance of Font-de-Gaumeyou need to hike, I don't know, it's
(30:30):
perhaps a kilometer all uphill, so thereare some people who would find that
difficult just to get to the entrance.
Well, if you had to go in the entrancethat those kids used it would be a whole
different matter, but they've actually...
Correct.
They've actually made anew entrance into the cave.
They have done a little bit ofmodifying in there, the entrance
that you use now is not natural.
(30:51):
Right.
And there's also one area wherethe painters practically had to lay
on their backs to paint, and theyhad to crawl in there to do it.
Well, that area they've actuallydug down right through the rocks and
you can see where the floor of thecave was, and it's up at my chest,
is where the floor of the cave was.
(31:13):
You'd be on your hands and kneescrawling through there to see
those if they hadn't done that.
Yep.
You know, one other thingwe should mention, we talked
about the cave paintings.
There is one other thing that'spretty inter- well, there's a couple
other things interesting in there.
First off, if somebody points them outto you, you'll be able to see these
depressions in the ground where cavebears hibernated, and you can also see
(31:35):
big scratch marks on the walls madeprobably by cave bears and cave lions.
The other thing that blew my mindwas one area of the cave where,
there's a depression that hadsome, I guess I'd say mud in it.
The mud is pretty dried out now, but inthe mud, there are human footprints from-
(31:55):
Yeah, including a little kid.
... 250 centuries ago, according to theexperts who measured them and tell
us what shoe size the kid wouldhave worn had he been a modern kid.
They say it was a kid who was abouta human probably about 10 to 12
years old, walked through that mud,you know, 250 centuries ago and left
(32:17):
footprints that are still there.
Yeah, it boggles the mind.
it is lovely.
And the other good thing about thisplace is when you go to Pech Merle, the
nearest attraction is Saint-Cirq-Lapopie,which is a beautiful medieval village,
and also there's a beautiful paththat you can hike between Bouziès and
(32:41):
Saint-Cirq-Lapopie along the river.
Did you do that one?
I did.
Well, we did, we started at notSaint-Cirq-Lapopie, the other end of it
that's Bouziès, which by the way, just thebridge to get into Bouziès is interesting.
It's old.
Old, one-way bridge.
You crawl up on your car, you crawlup to the bridge and look to peak up
(33:03):
to see if anybody's coming from theother way, and if they aren't, then
you go ahead, and if they are, youback up and let them come across.
Anyway, yes, that's a very easy path.
It's an old towpath, as you said.
We started there and walkedtowards Saint-Cirq-Lapopie.
Didn't go all the way.
Right, it gets steep asyou get towards Saint-Cirq.
(33:23):
The interesting part is before you getthere anyway, there's an area there
where, naturally, I mean, we're talkinga valley with cliffs on both sides.
Well, in one place, the riverhas swung over and the river is
right at the base of the cliff.
There's no place for a path, so theyactually cut the path into the cliff side.
And when you walk through there,it's like walking through a
(33:45):
tunnel with one wall missing.
You're walking along and aboveyou is rock, on one side is
rock, under your feet is rock.
On the other side is open air.
The river.
Really cool.
You walk past one or maybe even twolocks that were built around small
rapids in the river so that, youknow, canal boats could get past them.
(34:08):
And these locks were beingrenovated last time I was there.
They're probably done by now.
Yeah, they are.
I understand there are still canal boattours you can take on the Lot River.
Yes, and because they were renovating thelock, they had modified the path, well,
we're recording this in January 2025.
By the time this episode comes out,probably it will be all done, all
(34:30):
renovated and you'll be able to...
That's one of the joys of thisarea is you can take little boat
tours, you can take little hikes.
Or longer, I mean, if you want togo on a long hike, you can too.
There's plenty of that as well.
Yeah, there are hiking pathsalong the Lot Valley and the
Célé Valley all over the place.
You can actually, if you want to,you can oh, say come down the Célé
(34:52):
Valley and then walk up the bluff.
There's a path that goes up thebluff all the way up to the Pech
Merle cave if you wanted to.
If you're on a week-long hiking trip andwant to take a detour to see the cave.
Well, the Camino people, the people whowalk to Santiago de Compostela, that's
one of the paths that they can take.
Right.
So definitely some serioushikers going through there.
(35:15):
And when I was there last time, theyhad, a triathlon was organized and
they were running through the townof Saint-Cirq-Lapopie and they had
come up all of that hiking path,and that was the running part.
They had done bikes beforeand swimming, and... anyway.
There's often events going on inthis area because it's gorgeous.
(35:39):
And even in Cabreret there'sactually , a call it Cabreret Beach.
We were there in October and it waspretty cold, chilly, and the water was
pretty chilly, but I've seen pictures.
There's a huge sandbar, and I haveseen pictures in the summer where that
sandbar looks like a Mediterranean beach.
There are people out there in beach chairsand towels and all that sort of stuff.
(36:01):
This area is full of campgrounds.
French families love to go camping.
And so this is an area where you can setup your tent at a municipal campground.
And you don't pay very much andyou can go, you know, boating and
hiking and all of these good things.
The whole area is pretty neat.
We went from there to Rocamadour andthat's another fascinating place.
(36:24):
It just...
That's also beautiful, yeah.
Just gorgeous, you know?
And was just a short, you know, I think itwas two-hour drive, something like that.
Yeah, it's not right nextdoor, but it's doable.
And so anyway, it's a greatarea, that whole department.
Fantastic.
The last part of your trip that we want totalk about is you went to the Camargue and
(36:46):
the Parc Ornithologique du Pont du Gau, sothat's... that would be a bird sanctuary.
And your wife particularly liked that.
Tell us about that.
Okay.
When we got to the Mediterranean, wewent to... we got a hotel for a few
days at Le Grau-Du-Roi, which sitsright in the corner of the Camargue.
(37:07):
Yep.
If you've been to Southern France but youhaven't been to the Camargue, you would
think Southern France is pretty rugged.
There's lots of hills and cliffsand, you know, that sort of thing,
like we were just talking about.
The Camargue is the exact opposite.
It's the delta of the Rhône River,which I think maybe the biggest
river that's in France, is it not?
(37:28):
I think it's the biggest river that'stotally in France, not counting the Rhine.
I believe that's true.
Could be, could be.
I don't know.
Anyway, for Americans, if you've everbeen in the Mississippi Delta, you'll
know what I'm talking about here.
But it's basically a triangular area,the Rhône River flows through it.
(37:48):
There's actually a couple branchesof the Rhône River, right?
Right around I think at Arles,the Rhône River actually splits
into two pieces, both of whichflow into the ocean separately.
So we're talking an... at a triangulararea and if you can imagine that the top
point of the triangle's about at Arles.
So what is that?
(38:09):
Maybe 40 miles from the coast, andthen it's probably about 50 miles
wide along the base of the triangle.
And it is very low lying,very flat, poorly drained.
If you start down at the ocean,what you're going to see mostly is
a... generally is a barrier island.
(38:32):
People living on the East Coast ofthe United States know all about this.
It'll look just like, oh, Idon't know, the Outer Banks in
North Carolina or something.
And right behind that, there's generallyusually some kind of a bay, and acres
and acres and acres of salt marshesand as you work your way northward,
the salt marshes become freshwatermarshes and then meadows, and then
(38:57):
eventually flat agricultural land.
Now that's how it was back in the day.
Nowadays, well, humans have beenliving here a long time, so there's
now lots of canals and dams anddrainage ditches, and so even in
the marshy areas there are fields.
And the area's known for several things.
(39:18):
One being Camargue horses and the otherbeing Camargue bulls, and bullfighting,
which is not something peoplethink of when they think of France.
But anyway, just driving through theCamargue we saw a lot of Camargue
horses, which are really neat horses.
They're kind of medium-sizedand they're basically white.
They have been living sort ofsemi-wild in the Camargue for
(39:41):
as long as anyone can remember.
And I saw some... there was some recentDNA studies somebody did that indicate
that that population of horses probablyhas been living there since the Ice Age.
They are native to that area, it appears.
Very cool.
Anyway... So, flat land, we're talkinghorses, you're talking bulls, there's
(40:04):
lots of birds, which we'll get toin a second, agricultural land,
they are known for... well, it'slow lying, so there's Camargue rice.
Which is good stuff, by the way.
And it's France, so there are wineries.
There's also a large salt industry.
And we actually toured the salt industrythere, and that was pretty neat.
We might talk... if we have time, wemight talk about that for a little bit.
(40:27):
But it's also a large part ofthe Camargue is natural preserves
of some sort or another.
Right.
And the one you specifically asked aboutis, well, I think it's... the whole
thing altogether, I think, is calledthe Parc Naturel Régional de Camargue.
Yes, it is.
Yes.
And then the one that you werespecifically asking about was the Parc
(40:50):
Ornithologique du Pont du Gau, whichis on the road down to one of the few
towns on the coast there is calledSaintes-Maries-de-la-Mer, and on the way
to Saintes-Maries-de-la-Mer, you passthe Parc Ornithologique du Pont du Gard,
which is a large bird sanctuary, preservessome ponds and shallow saltwater marshes.
(41:16):
So we stopped there, parkedin the fairly small gravel
parking lot and went for a walk.
I think we were there for two anda half hours, something like that.
And started walking, and yes,we saw, you'll see water birds,
I mean, we saw herons and thosesorts of things, you know.
But after the first, I think we probablywalked about 30 yards, got to where
(41:38):
we could see the first pond, and wesaw our first thousand flamingos.
It was just stunning.
These guys are everywhere there.
Yeah.
In the rest of the Camargue,wherever you see water, look and
you might see one or two flamingos.
Here, thousands of them.
I mean, you can't imagine it.
But I know my wife was, we were walkingand we came around a curve in the
(42:01):
path and there's that pond full offlamingos, and she just stopped and
looked and just said- ... "Oh, wow."
Yeah.
You know?
So, anyway.
They are beautiful.
You want to see flamingos,this is the place to go.
They are the stars of the show, and yes,there's egrets and herons and stuff there.
And if you're a real bird person, you'llnotice those, and everybody else is just
(42:23):
going to be staring at the flamingos.
Yeah.
And they, I mean, flamingosmigrate, but those don't.
They seem to have acclimatedto staying there year round.
I got that impression because...Now, we were there, remember, it
was October and it was chilly.
And I was wondering when we went, "Iwonder if we'll see flamingos or if
(42:44):
they will have migrated away." Butno, they appear to be there forever.
Yeah.
So long as there's food,you know, birds do fine.
Well, not all birds, but...
Yep.
Yeah.
there's apparently plentyof food in the water there.
Flamingos need a specific environment.
They need shallow water or theydon't like anything, they don't swim.
They wade around on thesebig stalk-like legs.
(43:05):
And generally, where they're walking,the water is no more than a foot
or so deep, something like that.
And they're just nosing around underwater doing whatever they do with
that curved bill of theirs, they'redigging up something and eating.
Yeah.
And they are beautiful creatures.
Oh, yes.
They're really fun to watch.
Like, if you take the train, sayfrom Montpellier to Barcelona, you're
(43:30):
going to be... The train's going tobe riding down along the Camargue.
And you will see some flamingo for sure.
But it's true that seeing like athousand at a time is like, "Whoa."
Yeah.
It was one of our better stops.
And like I said, my wife enjoyed it a lot.
I enjoyed it.
And again, we're talking, there, there area few miles, probably, of paths that you
(43:53):
can walk around all these ponds and such.
But they're all very well signed,easy to find your way around,
and we're talking flat here.
We're talking as flat as it gets.
I don't think the paths were notasphalt, but they were like hard
packed gravel and easy to walk on.
My wife had no problem atall walking around there.
(44:14):
And some places, she walks for a whileand then says, I'm getting kind of
this, my knee's starting to hurt, youknow, or my hip's starting to hurt.
How much farther should we go in?" Thisplace, she didn't, she was not talking
about how much farther should we go.
She kept going.
She kept going and I never heardabout her joints while we were there.
That's great.
Well, we've been talking a long time.
(44:34):
We need to put an end to our conversation.
But I do want to say that yousent me excellent notes with a lot
of very specific recommendationsfor hotels and for restaurants.
People should go to the episodepage, which is the episode number.
So you dojoinusinfrance.com/episode number.
(44:56):
I'm not sure what episode numberis this going to be yet, so I
can't tell you right this second.
Well, you're over 500, aren't you?
Yeah.
I just published 528, so yeah.
A lot of them.
But if you type, for any episode, if youdo joinusinfrance.com/ and the number for
the episode, you'll get to the show notes.
(45:16):
And then if you scroll to the bottom ofthe page, you'll see Guest Notes, and this
is where I'll have a lot of stuff thatyou sent me because it's very interesting.
I love it when people give me some detailsabout the foods they liked, and the hotels
and things like that, because peoplealways, every time somebody comes on the
podcast, I get several emails about, "Oh,your guest mentioned this. What was it?"
(45:40):
Okay.
So I like the specifics, you know?
Well, when we're talking food in theCamargue, I got to mention one thing.
Okay.
And this was one of thoseaccidental discoveries.
I'd never heard of it, but after theParc Ornithologique, we drove on down to
the beach, to Saintes-Maries-de-la-Mer.
Beautiful beach.
Yeah, a beautiful beach, the day we werethere, it was cold and windy, and the sand
(46:03):
was blowing and it wasn't so beautiful.
But we went to a restaurant there.
And on the menu, there was somethingcalled gardiane de taureau.
Huh?
... I had never heard of this.
And so I try it, turnsout it's a Camargue thing.
You can find it on restaurantmenus all around the Camargue.
Ah.
And gardiane de taureau, as Iunderstand it, that gardiane de
(46:26):
taureau is... I guess the bestEnglish translation would be a cowboy.
The guys that take care of the bulls.
So gardiane is the peoplewho guard the bulls, yes.
Mm-hmm.
So anyway, so this might be, I guess ifyou wanted to translate something like
cowboy stew or something like that?
I mean it, it meansit's made of bull meat.
(46:49):
Yes.
So it's a bull meat something or other.
Yeah.
So, to make gardiane de taureaux,you need, well, to make the authentic
thing, you need those Camargue bulls.
You need meat from the Camargue bull.
You cut it up in kind of cubes, and thenyou marinate it overnight and then cook
(47:10):
it for a long time in red Camargue wineand some spices, and you throw in a few
probably carrots, that sort of thing.
And you cook it until the meatis tender, which takes all day.
Yep.
And you end up with this meat andsome carrots and onions and such in
(47:31):
a kind of a thick red wine sauce, andthen you serve that on top of Camargue
rice, have to have the Camargue rice.
Of course, of course.
In my first one, there was actuallythe pile of stew meat and sauce in
the middle of the plate, and on oneside was a pile of Camargue rice.
On the other side was a pile ofFrench fries, all with the red
(47:53):
wine sauce poured over top of them.
Anyway...
Nice.
I was just head over heelsfantastically in love with this stuff.
It's a little bit like, actuallysimilar, I would say, to beef
burgundy, except to me the sauce wasthicker and had a stronger flavor.
Anyway, so I had it like threedifferent times, I think,
(48:13):
while we were in the Camargue.
Wow.
And again, it was something I'dnever heard of and just stumbled on
it by accident and just loved it,so... that doesn't always happen.
I mentioned in my food notes therewas at least one thing I tried
in France that, hey, glad I triedit, won't try it again, you know?
All right.
Ken, thank you so much for talking to me.
You have been very interesting, verywell... you study this stuff, it's great.
(48:38):
I love it.
Well, I told you I'm a history nutcase,and then a secondary interest in geology.
So put me in a cave, and especially acave with paintings, I'm like ecstatic.
Exactly.
Or give me a battlefield.
My poor wife, she usually sits while Ihike across the battlefield, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And she sometimes sits for a couplehours while I hike in the footsteps of,
(49:00):
oh, well, in, around here, it's thoseConfederate soldiers or Union soldiers,
but battlefield, I'm in, you know?
Painted cave, I'm in.
Thank you very much, Ken, and hopefullyI'll have you back on the podcast
after your next adventure in France.
After our next adventure, yes.
Well then the next adventureis in my wife's ball court,
(49:21):
and she's saying Ireland.
But then the year afterthat, I think back to France.
Very good.
Merci beaucoup, Ken.
Okay.
Au revoir, Annie.
Au revoir.
Again, I want to thank my patrons forgiving back and supporting this show.
(49:43):
Patrons get several exclusiverewards for doing that.
You can see them at patreon.com/joinus.
I'm pre-recording a few episodeintros right now, so no new shout-outs
today, but I haven't forgotten you.
Every single patron helps thelights on at Join Us in France.
(50:06):
If you've been enjoying theshow and want to give back,
consider joining us on Patreon.
It starts at just $3 a month, and you'llget access to exclusive rewards and
ad-free episodes as soon as they're ready.
Visit patreon.com/joinus to learn more.
And if you're already a patron,thank you, thank you so much.
And to support Elyse, of course,go to patreon.com/elysart.
(50:31):
I won't have any new reviews of myVoiceMap tours to share, but if you're
curious about what other people thinkabout those VoiceMap tours of Paris,
head over to joinusinfrance.com/vmr.
VMR stands for VoiceMap Reviews.
You'll find lots of feedback fromfellow travelers who've walked the
(50:53):
streets of Paris with me in their ears.
Maybe your review willbe the next one I read.
Podcast listeners get a big discountfor buying these tours on my website.
It's best for me as well, because I getto keep more of what you pay instead
of giving it to Apple or Google, butif you buy from my boutique, it's a
manual process, so don't expect itto be instant like it would be if you
(51:15):
were buying directly from VoiceMap app.
But most of you listening to meplan their trips ahead of time,
so it shouldn't be a problem.
To use your code, open VoiceMap, tapTour Codes at the bottom right, enter
the code, and download the tour.
You own it forever.
Even if you change phones, justlog into your VoiceMap account
(51:36):
to access everything again.
The tours work without data as well,because the audio images and maps are
downloaded to your phone, and GPS worksanywhere, even without cell service.
Best of all, you can listen in virtualplayback from anywhere in the world.
Perfect if Paris is notin your immediate plans.
(51:57):
Take me in your pocketwith my VoiceMap tours.
And if you're planning a trip to Franceand you need some expert help, you can
hire me as your Itinerary Consultant.
It's a busy season, so book earlyat joinusinfrance.com/boutique.
Usually I have openings within amonth, but right now it's more like
two or three months, so don't wait.
(52:18):
Now, changes are comingto French toll roads.
If you've heard about changes onthe A13 and the A14 autoroutes
between Paris and Caen, it's becausea lot of things have changed.
If you're planning to drive inthat area during your next trip to
France, here's what you need to know.
The old toll booths, gone.
(52:39):
They've been replaced by a flux libre.
That's a barrier-free toll kind of area.
Sounds great, right?
It is, if you know how it works, becauseno, these autoroutes are not free.
And yes, people aregetting caught off guard.
So here's the scoop.
You can pay your telepéagebadge if you have one.
(53:01):
Most visitors do not, sowe can forget about that.
Or you can pay online after your drive atsanef.com, that's S-A-N-E-F, the website
of the company that manages that highway.
No badge, no website?
You can also pay at a tobaccoshop that's a participant.
(53:23):
And some tobacco shops participate,they're called Nirio Buralistes.
Now, if you don't pay within 72 hours,you'll get a fine, and it's steep.
The original toll jumps by 90 euros.
But if you pay within 15 days, the penaltyis only 10 euros more than the base toll.
The system uses cameras to readyour license plate as you drive.
(53:45):
It's efficient, betterfor traffic and pollution.
And yes, they've added lots of signsto let people know about this, but
some drivers still say it's confusing.
So if you're renting a car inFrance and using these autoroutes
to go specifically for now betweenParis and Caen, keep this in mind.
(54:06):
Don't wait for a bill.
Go check the Sanef site, S-A-N-E-F.
Do that proactively.
And maybe bookmark thesanef.com site before your trip.
Voila, drive happy and no surprise fines.
And again now, this is onlybetween Paris and Caen.
They're trying it, but if it's asuccess you'll know they'll expand it.
(54:28):
So I'll keep you updated when I know more.
My thanks to podcast editors, Anneand Christian Cotovan, who produced
the transcripts and the audio.
Next week on the podcast, an episodewith Elyse about the amazing Marquis
de Lafayette, and why he was belovedin America but controversial in France.
History buffs are going to love that one.
(54:50):
Thank you so much for listening,and I hope you join me next time so
we can look around France together.
Au revoir.
The Join Us in France travelpodcast is written, hosted, and
produced by Annie Sargent, andCopyright 2025 by AddictedToFrance.
It is released under a CreativeCommons attribution, non-commercial,
(55:11):
no derivatives license.
This is Join Us in France, Episode547, cinq cent quarante-sept.
Bonjour, I'm Annie Sargent and Join Usin France is the podcast where we take
a conversational journey through thebeauty, culture, and flavors of France.
Today, I bring you a conversationwith Ken Ives about his magical
25-day journey in France.
(00:38):
From exploring historical battlefieldsand ancient caves to encountering the
stunning wildlife of the Camargue,Ken shares captivating stories and
hidden gem I think you'll enjoy.
This podcast runs on chocolatine,caffeine, and the support
of lovely humans like you.
You book itinerary consults, take myVoiceMap tours of Paris, ride shotgun in
(01:02):
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For the magazine part of the podcastafter my chat with Ken today, I'll
(01:24):
discuss the changes coming to French tollroads that you will need to know about.
If you want all the links and thefull transcript of this episode,
you'll find them on the episodepage at joinusinfrance.com/episodes.
(01:49):
Bonjour Ken Ives and welcomeback to Join Us in France.
Bonjour, Annie, and Iam delighted to be back.
I had so much fun the first time,just had to come back again.
Wonderful, thank you so much.
So you had another great trip to France.
Tell us when this trip took placeand how many days you were in
France, and how you got around.
You know, just tell us briefly, we startedhere, went there, there, there, et cetera.
(02:12):
Okay.
I don't know if I can do it brieflybut, it was in basically October,
most of the month of October of 2024.
We're in 2025 now, right?
Okay.
Yes.
So it was a little later than Iwould have preferred to go, but
there were various family eventsthat just gave us that window.
(02:35):
So that's the window we took.
So flew to Paris, like always.
Spent a couple days in Parisjust decompressing and trying
to power through the jet lag.
Then we took a train downto Fontainebleau, spent
overnight in Fontainebleau.
I wanted to hike in the Fontainebleauforest, so I got to do that, and
(02:56):
also wanted to see the Château deFontainebleau, which I had been told was
sort of Versailles without the crowds,and I think that's pretty much right.
We rented a car inFontainebleau, drove to Sancerre.
Uh-huh.
And we stayed in Sancerre for a week.
We met my son and ourfour-year-old granddaughter there.
And my son and I, did a week ofFrench class at the Cœur de France
(03:20):
language school there, which I thinkyou've talked about on other podcasts.
Yes.
And I'll put in a plug for these folks.
It's a great place.
Cœur de France, yes.
So after Sancerre, we splitand went our separate ways.
My wife and I went to Poitiersfirst, and then did a kind of a
(03:40):
swing through southeastern France,Poitiers and then down to Cabreret.
Yes, Cabreret.
Oh, so that's the Pech Merle thing.
Right, it's the town where the Pech Merlecave is in the bluffs above the town.
Yeah.
We stayed there one night.
We went through, let's see, Limoges.
(04:00):
We stayed in Limoges, but the reasonwe were in Limoges was to see something
you've talked about for an entirepodcast, which is the town there that
the SS destroyed during World War II.
There was a massacre andjust a... an ugly story.
But I thought it was one that... I'ma history nutcase, I wanted to see it.
(04:21):
And my wife even, who isdecidedly not a history nutcase,
she had even heard about it.
She said, "Oh, yeah,I've heard about that."
Yeah, Oradour-sur-Glane, yes.
Oradour-sur-Glane.
We went there prepared tobe depressed, and we were.
Stayed overnight.
Yeah, it does not disappoint that way.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, it's... it's just an awful story,and you find yourself just getting
(04:41):
involved in... at least I did lookingat, like, that rusting car and wondering
who the owner was, and "oh, I hope hesurvived," and you know he really didn't.
And the cemetery is,to me, was very moving.
There are tombs on the surface,these are family crypts there.
And sitting on the crypt they put littleplaques with people's names in them.
(05:04):
I saw one tomb, family tomb therethat had eight people's names
in a row all with the same deathdate on the date that the SS came.
It was just, like, eight peopleout of one family, you know?
That's terrible.
Yeah.
Anyway, we then went on downinto your part of the world.
Did a swing down and saw Carcassonne.
(05:26):
Went to Béziers.
And then kind of we went to a town on theMediterranean, it's called Le Grau-du-Roi.
Yeah, Le Grau-du-Roi, very nice place.
Yes, it was... I was looking around.
This was the part of thetour that was for my wife.
Her idea of a good vacation is beach,sunshine, gentle breeze, feet up in the
(05:47):
air, reading a good book for several days.
So I was looking for ahotel that was on the beach.
And actually, in Southern France,those are not as common as you'd think.
A lot of them actuallysit up on cliffs and such.
You get great views, but then you got toclimb down the cliff to get to the water.
So we stayed there for three days,and while we were there, we were
right on the edge of the Camargue,so we spent three days exploring
(06:10):
the Camargue and giving my wife somefeet-in-the-air-reading-a-good-book time.
And then we finished up in Avignon.
We spent three days in Avignon, andthen took the TGV back to Paris.
All right, excellent.
Okay.
So we've decided, the two of us, toconcentrate on a few things that you
particularly enjoyed and that we haven'ttalked about so much on the podcast.
(06:32):
And the first is the thingsthat you did in Poitiers.
We haven't done anepisode on Poitiers, yet.
So, tell us what you found thatyou really enjoyed in Poitiers.
Okay, well I should warn everybody that weonly just barely saw the city of Poitiers.
We were close, but I went therebecause I specifically wanted to
(06:52):
go to the Poitiers battlefield.
There were actually two battles ofPoitiers, by the way, in history.
We're talking about the oneduring the Hundred Years' War.
One of the most important battles inFrench history, and the French, I don't
think, even talk very much about itprobably because the French suffered
just a horrible, humiliating defeat.
They had all the advantages andthe English beat them anyway.
(07:15):
In fact, the King of France was captured.
One of his sons was captured, and awhole slew of knights and counts and
bishops and such, all were capturedand imprisoned in England and ransomed.
In fact, King John of Franceactually died in England.
France never raised the entire ransom.
Raising the king's ransombankrupted France for the next,
(07:36):
geez, like, almost a century.
So it was quite importantin French history.
Like most medieval battles, wedon't know a heck of a lot about it.
We do know sort... We know whereit happened, and a small piece
of the battlefield has actuallybeen preserved as a park.
The rest of the battlefieldis private property.
There are houses on it soyou can't necessarily see it.
(07:57):
But you can go there and... Forme, I could go there and sort of
envision the armies fighting there.
So anyway, I want to go for that.
And that's called theBataille de Poitiers?
Yes.
I think there's a... Yeah, letme look at my map real quickly.
What you'll find on, at least onGoogle Maps, it's called the Memorial
(08:20):
Historique Champ de Bataille.
If you put in your browser, Battleof Poitiers 1356 was the year,
you have to specify which one.
Yeah, because there's a 700 andsomething as well, like you mentioned.
Yeah.
And that one happened north of Poitiers.
This is actually a little bit south ofPoitiers, right on the Moisson River.
(08:41):
You have to find it because it's noton a main, what is now a main road.
But there's a long ridgethere that the British used
to great effect and... anyway.
And beat the crap out of us another time.
They did, yes.
The Hundred Years' War is a greatstudy in how to lose all the
battles and still win the war.
Yeah, yeah.
(09:01):
Because in the end, France cameout ahead, you know, but...
But it took 100 years.
Yes.
So we went, saw the battlefield there.
Near the battlefield, there'salso a medieval abbey.
It was there during the Battleof Poitiers and actually
figured slightly in the battle.
At the time, it was calledthe Abbaye de Nouaillé.
(09:22):
And it's now, there's a coupleof towns merged so it's now the
Abbaye de Nouaillé-Maupertuis.
But nonetheless, thatwas really a neat place.
It's something that you know, it's offthe beaten path and nobody's ever seen it.
In between, there's the Moisson River,and the valley of the Moisson River
is a very popular place for hiking.
(09:45):
There's an area called the Bois dela Garenne pretty much between the
battlefield and the abbey along theMoisson River that just criss-crossed
with hiking paths and just a neat area.
Yeah.
So you got all the things I like here.
You've got history and you've gothiking, and I'm a happy camper.
(10:06):
Yeah.
That's good.
And then the town, I should mentionthe town of Nouaillé-Maupertuis.
I'm trying hard here.
Is a very small place.
There's one restaurant there,and nothing much in the area.
So, one of the restaurants we wentto was in Poitiers and you would
never think that I'd be singing thepraises of a fast food restaurant.
(10:29):
But I'm going to singthe praises of this one.
There is a... I had never heard of it,but there's a small chain of fast food
restaurants, I think they have maybe15 or so scattered across Southern
France and it's called Le Brut Boucher.
Le Brut Butcher.
The Brut Butcher.
That chain was founded by a family ofbutchers, and they are all about the meat.
(10:55):
They're not about anything else.
It's the meat.
They advertise they use only thehighest grade French Charolais beef.
And you know what?
You can get a hamburger.
My wife did, and she said itwas a really good hamburger.
But you can also get steak.
Aha.
In France is, you know, I don'tusually recommend steak in France.
(11:17):
It's not what we do best.
So it's good to know that there it's good.
No, it is not.
I got to tell you, I've had afew French steaks, and they were
all disappointing except here.
Yeah.
Well, that's great.
This was the best steak I've... Oneof the best steaks I've ever had.
I got this, I don't knowthe French name for it, it's
basically a flank steak, sliced.
Nice flank steaks, slices offlank steak cooked exactly
(11:40):
right, with roasted new potatoes.
There's a huge drink list.
Of course, they've got soft drinks, butthere's a long list of wine and beer also.
And they also have, by the way, chickenand duck and a couple different kinds
of steak, and yes, you can get burgers.
Uh-huh.
Really good.
So flank steak in French is bavette.
Okay.
(12:00):
B-A-V-E-T-T-E.
Okay.
It's also one of my favoritesbecause it, it's usually tender.
It was really good.
And, you know, you walk in andthey've got this automatic kiosk.
We went in there, and it took us awhile to, you know, read and figure out
because my wife speaks almost no Frenchand I speak, eh, enough to get by.
(12:21):
But we order, then we go... And thenyou go to the counter and you pay and
they hand you your drinks, and theyhand you one of these pager gizmos.
You go to your seat.
It was maybe three or four minuteslater, the pager goes off, and I went
and get our burger and our steak, and itall comes in, in cardboard trays, okay?
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's not high dining,but it was really good.
(12:44):
We were both really impressed with it.
So anyway, so we went inthere for dinner that night.
And the next day after we toured theAbbaye de Nouaillé, we went to the only
real restaurant in the town, which Ithink was called L'Auberge de l'Abbaye.
It's a kind of a... Oh, I would you saykind of a bar/restaurant, but really
(13:09):
small place, very friendly, very informal.
And I like that too, so...
So, anyway, we had a lot of fun there.
Very good.
Sounds like it's a fun area, and notone that a lot of people have mentioned.
You have a knack for going toplaces that other people don't.
I do.
You'll frequently find me out onthe farthest point of land sticking
(13:31):
out into the farthest ocean awayfrom wherever I am, or on the top of
the highest mountain or something.
I just have this thing about that.
Yeah, yeah.
And my wife has suffered through itfor, well, we just had our 50th wedding
anniversary, so she's suffered...
Oh, wow.
Congratulations, you guys.
... suffered with- through it for a few years.
Yes.
For a couple of years, yes.
(13:52):
So I just found this abbey you'rementioning, Abbaye de Nouaillé-Maupertuis.
That's quite a mouthful.
Yes, it is.
But it looks very nice.
It looks very medieval.
Let's put it that way.
It's medieval.
It's a walled, fortifiedabbey with a moat around it.
Now, the moat and the fortificationswere not there during the battle.
(14:12):
They did it after?
They're an later edition probably.
I mean, this was not a safe place tolive during the Hundred Years' War.
Yeah.
But anyway, by the 20th century,it was pretty much in ruins, and
I believe that it's now owned...I think it's owned by the town.
I think it's owned by thetown of Nouailles-Maupertuis.
(14:34):
And they've done some restoration,and it's... well, it's small, I
mean, you can walk through andsee pretty much everything you're
going to see in 15 or 20 minutes.
But then if you want to... You can doa hike around the moat and such, and
then out into La Garene, we spent acouple of hours in the town altogether.
That's cool.
Yeah.
So very nice.
(14:54):
There is a church in the abbey thatis open sometimes and not others.
If the church happens to be closed,you can go get the key from the
Mairie, which is... The Mairie isactually in the abbey gatehouse.
And so we did that, and somebody therepicked up the key, which was this big...
(15:15):
It's a key that's, like, a foot long.
It's got to be original.
And we went over to unlock thechurch, and then discovered that the
church was actually closed that dayfor a special event, and he couldn't
unlock it, couldn't let us in.
So we didn't get to see the insideof the church, but nonetheless.
That's always a goodthing to try, by the way.
If you went somewhere and you wouldreally like to go into the church
(15:38):
or into a tiny museum that's onlyopen occasionally or whatever, it's
always worth a try to go to the Mairieand see if they'll open for you.
Sometimes the right person with the key isthere, sometimes not but it's worth a try.
Well, this guy was... He was reallyfriendly and he really wanted to show us
the church, and he was just so apologeticwhen he couldn't let us in that day.
(16:02):
It was like, oh man, he thoughtwe were going to be mad or
something, but we weren't.
Very nice.
All right.
Are we ready to move on to Pech Merle?
Another place that you really enjoyed.
Oh, yes.
Pech Merle is near Saint-Cirq-Lapopie,so it's closer to Toulouse.
Right.
The Lot department I believeit is, if I remember right.
I think so, yeah.
(16:24):
And it's a beautiful,beautiful painted cave.
So tell us why you enjoyed it so much.
Most of southern France is underlainby limestone, which means that you've
got caves all over southern France.
And something on the order of 200 ofthose caves they've discovered paleolithic
cave art, you know, stuff drawn on thewalls by very early humans in Europe.
(16:48):
Out of those 200, there's just a handfulof them that you can actually go in.
Those paintings, obviously,they're delicate.
They cannot be replaced.
You can't screw this up, and we havescrewed it up a couple of times.
I'm sure you're familiar with the storyof the Lascaux cave, and my understanding
is that many of the paintings in theLascaux cave you can't really even
(17:12):
see anymore, if you could go in.
They don't let anybody into thecave, but they're still trying to
control the damage that was doneby tourists, not intentionally.
It's just a matter of, if we couldgo in the cave and view the paintings
without any light and without breathing,then it would be no problem at all.
(17:33):
Okay?
But humans going in the cave, it's asmall area, and we breathe and we breathe
out carbon dioxide and water vapor, andwe change the atmosphere in the cave.
And in the case of Lascaux, changingthe atmosphere allowed molds to
start growing on the paintings.
Yeah, it's green moldthat keeps growing, yeah.
Yeah.
And how to kill the mold withoutkilling the painting is something
(17:55):
we haven't really figured out yet.
Anyway, so most of them are closed.
Pech Merle is one of the few whereyou can actually go in the real cave
and still see the actual cave art.
I'm always for the realthing, rather than a mockup.
So that's why we went.
That was the main reason to go there.
(18:16):
I should mention that there's,even if you don't like cave
art, that area is just gorgeous.
The Lot valley and the Célévalley are just fantastic.
In fact, when we were in Cabreret, it wasone of those days when it was raining off
and on a little bit, and from our hotelroom, which was looking out over the Célé
river, we looked and we're in the sunshineand it's raining at the same time, and we
(18:41):
looked out, and lo and behold, we ran andgrabbed our cameras and we got pictures
of a double rainbow over the Célé valley.
Very nice.
Just awesome.
Anyway, Pech Merle Cave.
It has a bunch of paleolithiccave art inside that cave.
And the cave art is just fascinating.
(19:02):
The stars of the show are a coupleof horses painted on a wall in there,
but there's several hundred figuresand paintings and so on and so forth.
And our ancestors painted what they saw.
There are pictures of mammothsand of horses and cave bears
and this sort of thing.
(19:24):
Yeah, it's interesting because theypainted what they saw, but they
didn't paint everything that they saw.
So there's very fewbirds in painted caves.
There's very few people.
There are few, there are few, but...
And in Pech Merle, there's one thatappears to be a man, and then there's
several other sort of stylized femalefigures, which they're not really
(19:50):
a picture of a woman so much as apicture of parts of a woman, you know?
Breasts and hips.
Yes.
With no head.
And large breasts and large hips.
But nobody's sure about the meaningof those, if there is a meaning even.
Okay, so you're going to see thesefantastic paintings, but you have to
be really careful, so people need toknow that there are a bunch of rules.
(20:15):
The obvious one, there's no food,no drink, no chewing gum, no
smoking in the cave, obviously.
Also, no photographywhatsoever, flash or not.
There are very strict limits on thenumber of people that can be in the
cave at one time, and also the totalnumber that can go through in a day.
I think it's 25 people at a timeand a maximum of 700 people per day.
(20:39):
Which means that it's a verywell ventilated cave, naturally.
Because 700 people is a lot of breathing.
Yeah.
Your time in the cave is limited.
Believe it or not, it's 43 minutesthat you're allowed in the cave.
The scientists have figured this out.
I mean, they sit and they figureout how much we breathe out and
so on and so forth, and how muchcan the cave take and so on.
(21:00):
You put all that together,and it's obvious that, first
off, the tours are scheduled.
There's a certain number ofpeople, 25, counting the guide,
that can go through at once.
Those tours are on a schedule, and whenit's scheduled to leave, it has to leave.
If you're late, you aren't going.
Yeah, yeah.
You have to stay with your guide,and obviously, when you think about
(21:24):
that, it means you really needto make reservations in advance.
Yes, you do.
And I would recommend makingthem very far in advance.
We made ours a few months in advance.
The tours, by the way, aremostly in French, but there
are English tours available.
They have very good guides in English.
I mean, some of themare better than others.
(21:45):
I've heard a lot of them guide in thecave and, my favorite is a young man.
But, you know, it doesn'tmatter, they're all pretty good.
And you do have to reserve,go to their website, I'll
put a link in the show notes.
And if you see nothing, it'salways worth calling them.
They speak English, so don't worry ifyou don't speak very good French, because
(22:08):
they're not very good at websites, okay?
It's happened to me that theirwebsite said it was full when
the place was almost empty.
And that's because they don'tmanage the website very carefully.
We didn't have trouble with their website,but I did have a problem, which was,
when you make your reservation, you paywith credit card, you tell them you're
(22:28):
going to pay with a credit card, and itkicks you to an external website that
manages their credit card payments.
Sure.
That website was 100% French,and we ran into a problem there.
It simply would not take ourcredit card and it kept making
the reservation, but then it saidit couldn't process the payment.
(22:50):
For no known reason.
I tried several times, it wouldn't do it.
I came back a day later and triedagain, it still wouldn't do it.
And there was no explanation of why.
And then I just pulled out my numbertwo credit card and gave it that credit
card number and everything worked fine.
But I have no idea to this day what wasgoing on there, but we got through it.
Right, right.
(23:11):
So anyway, when we went, we checkedthe day we were going to be there,
and I looked, and there was, that day,there was one tour in English, and
it was at, I forget what, might'vebeen, like, 2:00 in the afternoon.
So we basically just builtour day around that tour time.
Got there in plenty of time.
There is a museum that you can go throughwhile you're waiting for your tour.
(23:32):
Yes, and it's good.
I'll say, so I've been to Pech Merlemany times, and usually, I don't
take the time to go into the museum.
But one time, I had a cold,like I do today, maybe I have
too many colds, I don't know.
And I decided, "No, I'm not going toinfect everybody in the cave, I'll just
stay out." And I had driven some peopleto the cave, and I took the time to look
(23:54):
at the museum, and it's really good.
There's a lot ofinteresting stuff in there.
I agree.
it was a very... In fact, I could'vespent more time in the museum, but we
reached the point that... They tellyou, I think you're supposed to check in
for your tour, I think it's 20 minutesbefore tour time or something like that.
So not wanting to be late...
It's 15 minutes before tour time, yeah.
We got there early, figuredout where to go and all that.
(24:17):
It's pretty, I mean, it'spretty self-explanatory.
You just walk down those stepsand you wait in that area and your
guide's going to come and call you.
It was pretty easy.
And our guide spoke verygood English, was very nice.
I thought, the way they did it...Now, our guide was very good.
Remember, you're limited in time.
You can't sit there... You wouldlike to sit and look at that painting
for 20 minutes, but you can't.
(24:39):
You have to look and then move on and shewas very good at keeping us moving, and
also making sure that everybody could getthere and see what they wanted to see.
And the way they do that, by the way,if you think, a cave, it's very hard
to get 25 people in one spot in a cave.
In fact, you can't do it.
So what they do is, when you start yourtour, they give you a little, I guess it's
(25:00):
a little radio receiver, it kind of lookslike the old Walkman with this little
thing, and then a set of earbuds, andthe guide has a microphone, and when she
talks, you can hear it in your headset.
So you can hear her even, if she's upat the front of the group and you're
clear at the back, you can still hearwhat she's saying, and she can tell
people in the back, "Okay, you folksmove on up now," that sort of thing.
(25:24):
The other thing they do, by the way,people should be aware of is, again,
we're trying to protect the paintingsso no more lighting than is necessary.
You walk into a part of the cave,the guide turns the lights on.
As you walk out, sheturns them back off again.
So most of the cave is in darkness exceptwhen there's actually people there.
Yeah, and it's also great because yougather around and she tells you where
(25:46):
to stop, and then she turns on thelights and you're like, "Oh." You know?
Yeah, yeah.
And she had a couple technicalproblems with the lighting,
and just about managed anyway.
There was one area of the cave wherethe lights wouldn't come on for
some reason, so she had a small,like a pen light, and she used that.
She had two of them and she put oneon one side and then she stood on the
other side so she could illuminate thepainting for us so we could see it.
(26:09):
Oh, I've never run into that problem.
Huh.
Interesting.
Yeah, yeah.
It was interesting.
Now, one thing everybody seems to beinterested in how old are these paintings,
and that turns out to not be as easy aquestion to answer as you might think.
What I can tell you after digging arounda lot is that Pech-Merle, one of the
(26:30):
reasons it was so well preserved wasthat our ancestors used that cave.
By the way, cave bears and allother kind of animals did too, and
then at some point there was a rockfall that blocked the entrance.
So nobody went in for a long time.
And then I believe the 1920s somekids found another entrance, a very...
(26:52):
It was small but they were able tocrawl down through it and get into
the cave, and it turned out that thelocal priest was an amateur historian,
archeologist, and he encouragedthose kids and he helped explore the
cave and document everything there.
Anyway, where I'm going with this is thatthe scientists have been able to date
that rock fall at about 10,000 years ago.
(27:15):
So first thing we know is that everythingin the cave is more than 10,000 years old.
The second data point come from...One of the best techniques for
dating things is carbon-14.
I'm sure you've heard of that.
But it only works for organic things.
Yeah, it has to contain carbon.
Or you can't date without carbon.
(27:36):
Yeah, and the paintings, the paintings inPech-Merle, in some caves they used soot.
Yeah, chalk.
Carbon black for their black colors,but in Pech-Merle they did not.
The paints there are all inorganicso you can't date them, but on one
of those horses, those stars ofthe show, those horses, up in the
(27:56):
mane of one horse the scientistsfound a little particle of charcoal.
And they got enough of it that they wereable to date the paintings, and they
come, turns out the paintings of thehorses were done about 25,000 years ago.
Right.
Okay, which is, if you thinkabout that, that's 250 centuries.
(28:17):
Here in the US something that's100 years old is really old, okay?
And you know, if it's one century, it'sold, and this is 250 centuries ago.
Then the second thing we cansay is on the same wall with the
horses there is a fish painted.
You won't notice the fish unlesssomebody points it out to you because the
(28:38):
horses were painted over the top of it.
Yeah, they did that a lot.
Which tells us that the fish isolder than the horses, so the fish
is more than 250 centuries old.
How much older?
We don't know.
But anyway, it's fascinating.
Yeah, it's fascinating, yeah.
Their best guess is that the earliestpaintings in there might be as
much as 28,000 years old maybe.
(29:02):
But for example, that fish, we knowit was painted before the horses.
It could have been 10 minutes before orit could have been 1,000 years before.
Just don't know.
Right, we don't know.
And Pech-Merle is a prettyeasy cave to visit as well.
I mean, there are some stepsbut it's developed well.
The path is all paved.
Oh, yeah.
So it's smooth, you know?
(29:23):
Paved path and there arelots of hand rails and such.
This is not always the case.
There are some caves you visitin France that are pretty rough.
Like Grotte de Niaux for example,further south, the Grotte de
Niaux, it's not as easy to visit.
My wife and I we're in ourmid-70s and my wife is starting
(29:44):
to have some mobility problems.
She has some metal joints that just,walking is something that she doesn't want
to do a whole lot of, and she was ableto negotiate the cave just fine, and she
said... Her comment about it was she said,"You know, even without the paintings
the cave is really neat." You know?
It's true.
Yeah.
Yeah, she really enjoyed it, andyou're limited to 43 minutes so
(30:06):
it's not going to be a real longhike, and it's mostly level.
There are some steps and obviouslyit's not even, but my wife managed
it okay, I managed it fine.
It's one of them that, where you don'tneed it to be in... You know, there's
others, Font-de-Gaume, for example.
To get to the entrance of Font-de-Gaumeyou need to hike, I don't know, it's
(30:30):
perhaps a kilometer all uphill, so thereare some people who would find that
difficult just to get to the entrance.
Well, if you had to go in the entrancethat those kids used it would be a whole
different matter, but they've actually...
Correct.
They've actually made anew entrance into the cave.
They have done a little bit ofmodifying in there, the entrance
that you use now is not natural.
(30:51):
Right.
And there's also one area wherethe painters practically had to lay
on their backs to paint, and theyhad to crawl in there to do it.
Well, that area they've actuallydug down right through the rocks and
you can see where the floor of thecave was, and it's up at my chest,
is where the floor of the cave was.
(31:13):
You'd be on your hands and kneescrawling through there to see
those if they hadn't done that.
Yep.
You know, one other thingwe should mention, we talked
about the cave paintings.
There is one other thing that'spretty inter- well, there's a couple
other things interesting in there.
First off, if somebody points them outto you, you'll be able to see these
depressions in the ground where cavebears hibernated, and you can also see
(31:35):
big scratch marks on the walls madeprobably by cave bears and cave lions.
The other thing that blew my mindwas one area of the cave where,
there's a depression that hadsome, I guess I'd say mud in it.
The mud is pretty dried out now, but inthe mud, there are human footprints from-
(31:55):
Yeah, including a little kid.
... 250 centuries ago, according to theexperts who measured them and tell
us what shoe size the kid wouldhave worn had he been a modern kid.
They say it was a kid who was abouta human probably about 10 to 12
years old, walked through that mud,you know, 250 centuries ago and left
(32:17):
footprints that are still there.
Yeah, it boggles the mind.
it is lovely.
And the other good thing about thisplace is when you go to Pech Merle, the
nearest attraction is Saint-Cirq-Lapopie,which is a beautiful medieval village,
and also there's a beautiful paththat you can hike between Bouziès and
(32:41):
Saint-Cirq-Lapopie along the river.
Did you do that one?
I did.
Well, we did, we started at notSaint-Cirq-Lapopie, the other end of it
that's Bouziès, which by the way, just thebridge to get into Bouziès is interesting.
It's old.
Old, one-way bridge.
You crawl up on your car, you crawlup to the bridge and look to peak up
(33:03):
to see if anybody's coming from theother way, and if they aren't, then
you go ahead, and if they are, youback up and let them come across.
Anyway, yes, that's a very easy path.
It's an old towpath, as you said.
We started there and walkedtowards Saint-Cirq-Lapopie.
Didn't go all the way.
Right, it gets steep asyou get towards Saint-Cirq.
(33:23):
The interesting part is before you getthere anyway, there's an area there
where, naturally, I mean, we're talkinga valley with cliffs on both sides.
Well, in one place, the riverhas swung over and the river is
right at the base of the cliff.
There's no place for a path, so theyactually cut the path into the cliff side.
And when you walk through there,it's like walking through a
(33:45):
tunnel with one wall missing.
You're walking along and aboveyou is rock, on one side is
rock, under your feet is rock.
On the other side is open air.
The river.
Really cool.
You walk past one or maybe even twolocks that were built around small
rapids in the river so that, youknow, canal boats could get past them.
(34:08):
And these locks were beingrenovated last time I was there.
They're probably done by now.
Yeah, they are.
I understand there are still canal boattours you can take on the Lot River.
Yes, and because they were renovating thelock, they had modified the path, well,
we're recording this in January 2025.
By the time this episode comes out,probably it will be all done, all
(34:30):
renovated and you'll be able to...
That's one of the joys of thisarea is you can take little boat
tours, you can take little hikes.
Or longer, I mean, if you want togo on a long hike, you can too.
There's plenty of that as well.
Yeah, there are hiking pathsalong the Lot Valley and the
Célé Valley all over the place.
You can actually, if you want to,you can oh, say come down the Célé
(34:52):
Valley and then walk up the bluff.
There's a path that goes up thebluff all the way up to the Pech
Merle cave if you wanted to.
If you're on a week-long hiking trip andwant to take a detour to see the cave.
Well, the Camino people, the people whowalk to Santiago de Compostela, that's
one of the paths that they can take.
Right.
So definitely some serioushikers going through there.
(35:15):
And when I was there last time, theyhad, a triathlon was organized and
they were running through the townof Saint-Cirq-Lapopie and they had
come up all of that hiking path,and that was the running part.
They had done bikes beforeand swimming, and... anyway.
There's often events going on inthis area because it's gorgeous.
(35:39):
And even in Cabreret there'sactually , a call it Cabreret Beach.
We were there in October and it waspretty cold, chilly, and the water was
pretty chilly, but I've seen pictures.
There's a huge sandbar, and I haveseen pictures in the summer where that
sandbar looks like a Mediterranean beach.
There are people out there in beach chairsand towels and all that sort of stuff.
(36:01):
This area is full of campgrounds.
French families love to go camping.
And so this is an area where you can setup your tent at a municipal campground.
And you don't pay very much andyou can go, you know, boating and
hiking and all of these good things.
The whole area is pretty neat.
We went from there to Rocamadour andthat's another fascinating place.
(36:24):
It just...
That's also beautiful, yeah.
Just gorgeous, you know?
And was just a short, you know, I think itwas two-hour drive, something like that.
Yeah, it's not right nextdoor, but it's doable.
And so anyway, it's a greatarea, that whole department.
Fantastic.
The last part of your trip that we want totalk about is you went to the Camargue and
(36:46):
the Parc Ornithologique du Pont du Gau, sothat's... that would be a bird sanctuary.
And your wife particularly liked that.
Tell us about that.
Okay.
When we got to the Mediterranean, wewent to... we got a hotel for a few
days at Le Grau-Du-Roi, which sitsright in the corner of the Camargue.
(37:07):
Yep.
If you've been to Southern France but youhaven't been to the Camargue, you would
think Southern France is pretty rugged.
There's lots of hills and cliffsand, you know, that sort of thing,
like we were just talking about.
The Camargue is the exact opposite.
It's the delta of the Rhône River,which I think maybe the biggest
river that's in France, is it not?
(37:28):
I think it's the biggest river that'stotally in France, not counting the Rhine.
I believe that's true.
Could be, could be.
I don't know.
Anyway, for Americans, if you've everbeen in the Mississippi Delta, you'll
know what I'm talking about here.
But it's basically a triangular area,the Rhône River flows through it.
(37:48):
There's actually a couple branchesof the Rhône River, right?
Right around I think at Arles,the Rhône River actually splits
into two pieces, both of whichflow into the ocean separately.
So we're talking an... at a triangulararea and if you can imagine that the top
point of the triangle's about at Arles.
So what is that?
(38:09):
Maybe 40 miles from the coast, andthen it's probably about 50 miles
wide along the base of the triangle.
And it is very low lying,very flat, poorly drained.
If you start down at the ocean,what you're going to see mostly is
a... generally is a barrier island.
(38:32):
People living on the East Coast ofthe United States know all about this.
It'll look just like, oh, Idon't know, the Outer Banks in
North Carolina or something.
And right behind that, there's generallyusually some kind of a bay, and acres
and acres and acres of salt marshesand as you work your way northward,
the salt marshes become freshwatermarshes and then meadows, and then
(38:57):
eventually flat agricultural land.
Now that's how it was back in the day.
Nowadays, well, humans have beenliving here a long time, so there's
now lots of canals and dams anddrainage ditches, and so even in
the marshy areas there are fields.
And the area's known for several things.
(39:18):
One being Camargue horses and the otherbeing Camargue bulls, and bullfighting,
which is not something peoplethink of when they think of France.
But anyway, just driving through theCamargue we saw a lot of Camargue
horses, which are really neat horses.
They're kind of medium-sizedand they're basically white.
They have been living sort ofsemi-wild in the Camargue for
(39:41):
as long as anyone can remember.
And I saw some... there was some recentDNA studies somebody did that indicate
that that population of horses probablyhas been living there since the Ice Age.
They are native to that area, it appears.
Very cool.
Anyway... So, flat land, we're talkinghorses, you're talking bulls, there's
(40:04):
lots of birds, which we'll get toin a second, agricultural land,
they are known for... well, it'slow lying, so there's Camargue rice.
Which is good stuff, by the way.
And it's France, so there are wineries.
There's also a large salt industry.
And we actually toured the salt industrythere, and that was pretty neat.
We might talk... if we have time, wemight talk about that for a little bit.
(40:27):
But it's also a large part ofthe Camargue is natural preserves
of some sort or another.
Right.
And the one you specifically asked aboutis, well, I think it's... the whole
thing altogether, I think, is calledthe Parc Naturel Régional de Camargue.
Yes, it is.
Yes.
And then the one that you werespecifically asking about was the Parc
(40:50):
Ornithologique du Pont du Gau, whichis on the road down to one of the few
towns on the coast there is calledSaintes-Maries-de-la-Mer, and on the way
to Saintes-Maries-de-la-Mer, you passthe Parc Ornithologique du Pont du Gard,
which is a large bird sanctuary, preservessome ponds and shallow saltwater marshes.
(41:16):
So we stopped there, parkedin the fairly small gravel
parking lot and went for a walk.
I think we were there for two anda half hours, something like that.
And started walking, and yes,we saw, you'll see water birds,
I mean, we saw herons and thosesorts of things, you know.
But after the first, I think we probablywalked about 30 yards, got to where
(41:38):
we could see the first pond, and wesaw our first thousand flamingos.
It was just stunning.
These guys are everywhere there.
Yeah.
In the rest of the Camargue,wherever you see water, look and
you might see one or two flamingos.
Here, thousands of them.
I mean, you can't imagine it.
But I know my wife was, we were walkingand we came around a curve in the
(42:01):
path and there's that pond full offlamingos, and she just stopped and
looked and just said- ... "Oh, wow."
Yeah.
You know?
So, anyway.
They are beautiful.
You want to see flamingos,this is the place to go.
They are the stars of the show, and yes,there's egrets and herons and stuff there.
And if you're a real bird person, you'llnotice those, and everybody else is just
(42:23):
going to be staring at the flamingos.
Yeah.
And they, I mean, flamingosmigrate, but those don't.
They seem to have acclimatedto staying there year round.
I got that impression because...Now, we were there, remember, it
was October and it was chilly.
And I was wondering when we went, "Iwonder if we'll see flamingos or if
(42:44):
they will have migrated away." Butno, they appear to be there forever.
Yeah.
So long as there's food,you know, birds do fine.
Well, not all birds, but...
Yep.
Yeah.
there's apparently plentyof food in the water there.
Flamingos need a specific environment.
They need shallow water or theydon't like anything, they don't swim.
They wade around on thesebig stalk-like legs.
(43:05):
And generally, where they're walking,the water is no more than a foot
or so deep, something like that.
And they're just nosing around underwater doing whatever they do with
that curved bill of theirs, they'redigging up something and eating.
Yeah.
And they are beautiful creatures.
Oh, yes.
They're really fun to watch.
Like, if you take the train, sayfrom Montpellier to Barcelona, you're
(43:30):
going to be... The train's going tobe riding down along the Camargue.
And you will see some flamingo for sure.
But it's true that seeing like athousand at a time is like, "Whoa."
Yeah.
It was one of our better stops.
And like I said, my wife enjoyed it a lot.
I enjoyed it.
And again, we're talking, there, there area few miles, probably, of paths that you
(43:53):
can walk around all these ponds and such.
But they're all very well signed,easy to find your way around,
and we're talking flat here.
We're talking as flat as it gets.
I don't think the paths were notasphalt, but they were like hard
packed gravel and easy to walk on.
My wife had no problem atall walking around there.
(44:14):
And some places, she walks for a whileand then says, I'm getting kind of
this, my knee's starting to hurt, youknow, or my hip's starting to hurt.
How much farther should we go in?" Thisplace, she didn't, she was not talking
about how much farther should we go.
She kept going.
She kept going and I never heardabout her joints while we were there.
That's great.
Well, we've been talking a long time.
(44:34):
We need to put an end to our conversation.
But I do want to say that yousent me excellent notes with a lot
of very specific recommendationsfor hotels and for restaurants.
People should go to the episodepage, which is the episode number.
So you dojoinusinfrance.com/episode number.
(44:56):
I'm not sure what episode numberis this going to be yet, so I
can't tell you right this second.
Well, you're over 500, aren't you?
Yeah.
I just published 528, so yeah.
A lot of them.
But if you type, for any episode, if youdo joinusinfrance.com/ and the number for
the episode, you'll get to the show notes.
(45:16):
And then if you scroll to the bottom ofthe page, you'll see Guest Notes, and this
is where I'll have a lot of stuff thatyou sent me because it's very interesting.
I love it when people give me some detailsabout the foods they liked, and the hotels
and things like that, because peoplealways, every time somebody comes on the
podcast, I get several emails about, "Oh,your guest mentioned this. What was it?"
(45:40):
Okay.
So I like the specifics, you know?
Well, when we're talking food in theCamargue, I got to mention one thing.
Okay.
And this was one of thoseaccidental discoveries.
I'd never heard of it, but after theParc Ornithologique, we drove on down to
the beach, to Saintes-Maries-de-la-Mer.
Beautiful beach.
Yeah, a beautiful beach, the day we werethere, it was cold and windy, and the sand
(46:03):
was blowing and it wasn't so beautiful.
But we went to a restaurant there.
And on the menu, there was somethingcalled gardiane de taureau.
Huh?
... I had never heard of this.
And so I try it, turnsout it's a Camargue thing.
You can find it on restaurantmenus all around the Camargue.
Ah.
And gardiane de taureau, as Iunderstand it, that gardiane de
(46:26):
taureau is... I guess the bestEnglish translation would be a cowboy.
The guys that take care of the bulls.
So gardiane is the peoplewho guard the bulls, yes.
Mm-hmm.
So anyway, so this might be, I guess ifyou wanted to translate something like
cowboy stew or something like that?
I mean it, it meansit's made of bull meat.
(46:49):
Yes.
So it's a bull meat something or other.
Yeah.
So, to make gardiane de taureaux,you need, well, to make the authentic
thing, you need those Camargue bulls.
You need meat from the Camargue bull.
You cut it up in kind of cubes, and thenyou marinate it overnight and then cook
(47:10):
it for a long time in red Camargue wineand some spices, and you throw in a few
probably carrots, that sort of thing.
And you cook it until the meatis tender, which takes all day.
Yep.
And you end up with this meat andsome carrots and onions and such in
(47:31):
a kind of a thick red wine sauce, andthen you serve that on top of Camargue
rice, have to have the Camargue rice.
Of course, of course.
In my first one, there was actuallythe pile of stew meat and sauce in
the middle of the plate, and on oneside was a pile of Camargue rice.
On the other side was a pile ofFrench fries, all with the red
(47:53):
wine sauce poured over top of them.
Anyway...
Nice.
I was just head over heelsfantastically in love with this stuff.
It's a little bit like, actuallysimilar, I would say, to beef
burgundy, except to me the sauce wasthicker and had a stronger flavor.
Anyway, so I had it like threedifferent times, I think,
(48:13):
while we were in the Camargue.
Wow.
And again, it was something I'dnever heard of and just stumbled on
it by accident and just loved it,so... that doesn't always happen.
I mentioned in my food notes therewas at least one thing I tried
in France that, hey, glad I triedit, won't try it again, you know?
All right.
Ken, thank you so much for talking to me.
You have been very interesting, verywell... you study this stuff, it's great.
(48:38):
I love it.
Well, I told you I'm a history nutcase,and then a secondary interest in geology.
So put me in a cave, and especially acave with paintings, I'm like ecstatic.
Exactly.
Or give me a battlefield.
My poor wife, she usually sits while Ihike across the battlefield, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And she sometimes sits for a couplehours while I hike in the footsteps of,
(49:00):
oh, well, in, around here, it's thoseConfederate soldiers or Union soldiers,
but battlefield, I'm in, you know?
Painted cave, I'm in.
Thank you very much, Ken, and hopefullyI'll have you back on the podcast
after your next adventure in France.
After our next adventure, yes.
Well then the next adventureis in my wife's ball court,
(49:21):
and she's saying Ireland.
But then the year afterthat, I think back to France.
Very good.
Merci beaucoup, Ken.
Okay.
Au revoir, Annie.
Au revoir.
Again, I want to thank my patrons forgiving back and supporting this show.
(49:43):
Patrons get several exclusiverewards for doing that.
You can see them at patreon.com/joinus.
I'm pre-recording a few episodeintros right now, so no new shout-outs
today, but I haven't forgotten you.
Every single patron helps thelights on at Join Us in France.
(50:06):
If you've been enjoying theshow and want to give back,
consider joining us on Patreon.
It starts at just $3 a month, and you'llget access to exclusive rewards and
ad-free episodes as soon as they're ready.
Visit patreon.com/joinus to learn more.
And if you're already a patron,thank you, thank you so much.
And to support Elyse, of course,go to patreon.com/elysart.
(50:31):
I won't have any new reviews of myVoiceMap tours to share, but if you're
curious about what other people thinkabout those VoiceMap tours of Paris,
head over to joinusinfrance.com/vmr.
VMR stands for VoiceMap Reviews.
You'll find lots of feedback fromfellow travelers who've walked the
(50:53):
streets of Paris with me in their ears.
Maybe your review willbe the next one I read.
Podcast listeners get a big discountfor buying these tours on my website.
It's best for me as well, because I getto keep more of what you pay instead
of giving it to Apple or Google, butif you buy from my boutique, it's a
manual process, so don't expect itto be instant like it would be if you
(51:15):
were buying directly from VoiceMap app.
But most of you listening to meplan their trips ahead of time,
so it shouldn't be a problem.
To use your code, open VoiceMap, tapTour Codes at the bottom right, enter
the code, and download the tour.
You own it forever.
Even if you change phones, justlog into your VoiceMap account
(51:36):
to access everything again.
The tours work without data as well,because the audio images and maps are
downloaded to your phone, and GPS worksanywhere, even without cell service.
Best of all, you can listen in virtualplayback from anywhere in the world.
Perfect if Paris is notin your immediate plans.
(51:57):
Take me in your pocketwith my VoiceMap tours.
And if you're planning a trip to Franceand you need some expert help, you can
hire me as your Itinerary Consultant.
It's a busy season, so book earlyat joinusinfrance.com/boutique.
Usually I have openings within amonth, but right now it's more like
two or three months, so don't wait.
(52:18):
Now, changes are comingto French toll roads.
If you've heard about changes onthe A13 and the A14 autoroutes
between Paris and Caen, it's becausea lot of things have changed.
If you're planning to drive inthat area during your next trip to
France, here's what you need to know.
The old toll booths, gone.
(52:39):
They've been replaced by a flux libre.
That's a barrier-free toll kind of area.
Sounds great, right?
It is, if you know how it works, becauseno, these autoroutes are not free.
And yes, people aregetting caught off guard.
So here's the scoop.
You can pay your telepéagebadge if you have one.
(53:01):
Most visitors do not, sowe can forget about that.
Or you can pay online after your drive atsanef.com, that's S-A-N-E-F, the website
of the company that manages that highway.
No badge, no website?
You can also pay at a tobaccoshop that's a participant.
(53:23):
And some tobacco shops participate,they're called Nirio Buralistes.
Now, if you don't pay within 72 hours,you'll get a fine, and it's steep.
The original toll jumps by 90 euros.
But if you pay within 15 days, the penaltyis only 10 euros more than the base toll.
The system uses cameras to readyour license plate as you drive.
(53:45):
It's efficient, betterfor traffic and pollution.
And yes, they've added lots of signsto let people know about this, but
some drivers still say it's confusing.
So if you're renting a car inFrance and using these autoroutes
to go specifically for now betweenParis and Caen, keep this in mind.
(54:06):
Don't wait for a bill.
Go check the Sanef site, S-A-N-E-F.
Do that proactively.
And maybe bookmark thesanef.com site before your trip.
Voila, drive happy and no surprise fines.
And again now, this is onlybetween Paris and Caen.
They're trying it, but if it's asuccess you'll know they'll expand it.
(54:28):
So I'll keep you updated when I know more.
My thanks to podcast editors, Anneand Christian Cotovan, who produced
the transcripts and the audio.
Next week on the podcast, an episodewith Elyse about the amazing Marquis
de Lafayette, and why he was belovedin America but controversial in France.
History buffs are going to love that one.
(54:50):
Thank you so much for listening,and I hope you join me next time so
we can look around France together.
Au revoir.
The Join Us in France travelpodcast is written, hosted, and
produced by Annie Sargent, andCopyright 2025 by AddictedToFrance.
It is released under a CreativeCommons attribution, non-commercial,
(55:11):
no derivatives license.
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