SALT: The Missing Weight Loss Key | Dr. James DiNicolantonio Reveals the Truth - Jorge Cruise Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
After 30 years of helping millions of people through my
books, my podcasts and television shows, I can tell you
there is one man, one person that has changed my thinking
more than anyone else. And if you've been watching the
last few episodes, you know how important the work of Rob Wolf
has been in my career and how important the work of Doctor

(00:24):
Jason Fung has been. But there's one man that really,
and I've had on the show varioustimes that has brought something
that I think is now a paradigm shift that is happening globally
when it comes to Wellness. And that is we're no longer
thinking about, you know, counting calories in dieting,
but rather about managing controlling hunger.

(00:46):
And Doctor James the Nicolai wrote a book.
This is his pivotal book that you guys need to check out.
It'll be in the show notes. It's called The Salt Fix, his
title subtitle says it all, why the experts got it all wrong and
how eating more might save your life.
And I can tell you this may be dramatic, but his book is not
only a New York Times bestseller.

(01:07):
He has follow up books on minerals and how.
In today's episode you're going to get an encore presentation of
my best interviews with him back-to-back for just over 3
hours. I want you to know that the next
three hours of your life will change how you think about your
health. I bet out hunger control and
it'll take you behind the sceneson how my thinking is evolved

(01:29):
over my 30 year career. And I can tell you this is the
man that's guided me to what I'mdoing with everything in my
career currently. And I'll tell you it is probably
the most important recordings I've ever made.
And this is the first time I've ever made an episode where I
include all of them. So there's going to be 4
incredible interviews with Doctor James.

(01:51):
It's going to start with our most recent one to our very
first one. We'll end with that one.
And I think by the time this three hour experience is done,
what you're going to have is a unique perspective that will
change your life. So let's sit down guys.
Get ready. 3 hours right now. You, me and Doctor James de
Nikolai and Tonio, the author ofThe Salt Fix.

(02:13):
Welcome, Doctor James. Thanks for having me on again.
Yeah, you hit the nail on the head in regards to the reason
why this book is so important isbecause it takes what I wrote in
the Salt Fix but translates it to performance.
And like you said, it doesn't. You don't have to be an elite
athlete to read the book. It's really pertains to everyone
because hydration is life. Salt and fluid is life and it

(02:36):
fuels our workouts and so we exercise.
One of the best things you can do for your health.
Really. Chapter 2 is all on hydration.
It took me a ton of research to actually pull a lot of those
studies. And really the common thing here
is that when you perform any type of vigorous exercise, that
blood volume drops very quickly.Within 5 minutes, 5 to 10

(02:57):
minutes, you drop percent blood volume and it's a relative drop.
Obviously you don't lose blood, but what happens is when you
vigorously exercise, the blood that used to go to the heart now
has to go into the working skeletal muscle, and then it
starts actually going to the skin to dissipate heat.
So you have this competition between blood volume from the
heart, the skeletal muscle and the skin.

(03:19):
And so if you can boost blood volume prior to performance,
which is what Chapter 2 covers, then you can prevent the drop in
blood volume, which is the main reason why performance suffers
is the drop in blood volume. I think it's so vital because I
feel like in life we often seem to be low energy, low

(03:41):
performance, low endurance. I think chronic fatigue is
something a lot of our listenersexperience and they think the
solution is more caffeine or stimulants.
And I love that your theory is so different.
It's more of a mineral base theory, obviously starting with
sodium. Can you take us back just for
those listeners that maybe didn't hear our first interview

(04:03):
and give us just a tiny recap ofwhat kind of this premises?
Because in your first and the book that got me to understand
what your work was and why it was so important was this salt
fix about why experts got it allwrong and it was a vilified salt
and sodium and how eating more and literally on the cover of
the book we say and how eating more salt can save your life.

(04:25):
Because if we can start there, Ithink a lot of people have been
told for decades, if you're 50 like I am or 60 or 70 that salt
is, I'll let you tell it. What have people been told for
how many decades and why is it all?
Well, let's start there and thenwe'll dive into obviously how it
impacts everything from hydration and appetite and
performance. But take us back to the roots of

(04:46):
your work and and how everyone got it wrong, right?
Yeah, From a historical perspective, if you think of
Romans used to consume on average 25 grams of salt.
And even in the 1800s, salt consumption was upwards of 50
grams in in many European countries.
And even a lot of the army rations understood that most

(05:08):
soldiers needed 18 to 20 grams of salt.
So this is 2 to three times whatwe typically consume in a day.
Was actually thought to be important back a couple 100
years ago before we invented therefrigerator.
We use salt to preserve our food.
Now, what's basically happened in the last 70 years is that we
just simply now demonize salt. We've been told this toxic

(05:30):
poison instead of this essentialmineral.
And what's interesting, what yousaid, we all think about
caffeine, coffee, we didn't usedto consume that hundreds of
years ago, but that is one of the biggest depleters of salt is
coffee caffeine. And when they were making all
these recommendations to consumea low amount of salt, they never
took exercise into account, nor did they take the fact that

(05:53):
caffeinated teas and coffees aresome of the most commonly
consumed beverages which depleteour bodies of salt.
So does the opposite it actuallywhat would you call it?
Like leeches sodium from our bodies and what briefly why is
that? So if someone's that's just a
bunch of chemistry, but it's honestly One Cup of coffee, it
removes how much water would yousay something people can relate

(06:16):
to? Sure.
So on average, I'll just go oversome of the salt studies that
looked at caffeine, but essentially 2 cups of coffee
will cause you to lose 600 milligrams of sodium extra
compared to placebo or just drinking water.
And if you consume 4 cups, you lose a half a teaspoon of salt
or 1200 milligrams of sodium. And so that's why coffee is a

(06:38):
diuretic, that's why you lose water is because it flushes out
sodium and chloride. It prevents the reabsorption of
sodium in the proximal tubule ofthe kidneys.
Wow. So when we drink coffee in
theory to create this, what is that called when there's a
balance? Obviously when we don't have
that balance, it's dehydration, right?
And talk to us how that leads towhat we've talked about in the

(07:01):
past to not just being thirsty. I would think if you feel that
even, but then more importantly could trigger appetite, right?
And in the sense of not having this what?
What's the proper term? When you have the right
hydration, what's the term you would use?
Yeah. I would just say optimal
hydration because you can talk about hydration in the cell,

(07:22):
which is intracellular hydrationor in the blood, which is
intravascular hydration. But essentially they balance
each other out at a certain point.
Basically the interstitial fluidhas the same osmotic radiant as
the blood and eventually they'llbalance each other out.
But you have you have two questions like coffee hydration
and then basically hunger in howAssault controls that.

(07:45):
So there have been studies in humans looking at consuming 3
cups of coffee twice a day. And what ended up happening is
that caused a massive increase in diuresis and it actually led
to a next negative volume or basically hydration status of
750 MLS when these people were consuming 2 liters a day.

(08:07):
So in other words, if you don't increase your water intake
essentially above 2 liters, and let's say you consume 3 cups of
coffee twice a day, you will become dehydrated.
That's been proven in metabolic studies looking at coffee
consumption because of the ironic effect.
And when we're dehydrated, give us what happens with everything

(08:28):
from performance energy. And what a lot of people want to
know from this podcast usually is about appetite and how it may
trigger us to want to eat when we're not really hungry, we're
just dehydrated. Is that take us through what the
the results of this are they sound negative for the most
part, right? Yeah, simply being dehydrated by

(08:48):
1.8 to 2% has been shown to reduce cognition, reduce mental
performance and reduce athletic performance.
And especially if you hit 3% dehydration, that will reduce
both endurance as well as basically power output.
So you're reducing strength and you're reducing endurance when
you're dehydrated and that's because you have less volume to

(09:12):
dissip the heat to sweat, to cool your body off.
That's one of the benefits of preloading with salt and fluids
is you're boosting your fuel tank, you're boosting your
coolant just to actually sweat off and still maintain the
normal amount of blood to feed the heart, the muscles.
So that's why it's important in regards to hunger that this is
what's interesting. The animal studies show that if

(09:32):
you deplete an animal of salt, the the addictive properties of
things like sugar, things like Adderall in things like cocaine
actually dramatically go up. And that's because low salt
diets actually activate the reward center in the brain.
It's a defense mechanism for basically animals, including
humans, in order to maintain an adequate amount of salt.

(09:54):
Essentially, if you are salt deficient, the body has to have
a way of telling itself, go out and seek out this nutrient,
otherwise you're going to die. And how it does that is it
activates the reward center in the brain so that when you get
salt, it's more rewarding. It allows the animal to seek it
out, find it, consume more of that.
But things that are addictive can crossover and become more

(10:18):
addictive when you're not getting enough salt because that
reward center is now hyperactive.
Wow, Now I know a lot of people know people and maybe have
addiction problems, whether it'salcoholed substances in the
past. But one of the biggest
addictions I know a lot of our clients suffer with which we
cannot throw in and never vilifyis what I think you would agree

(10:38):
should be vilified, which is sugar.
And how does it impact our ability to crave sweets?
Because literally I've heard others say, and I think you may
agree with us, that sugar can bemore addictive than hard
substances like even heroin and cocaine and other hard drugs.
How does sugar play? This and our ability to regulate
our control of sugar, carbohydrates.

(11:00):
So the animal studies, basically, if you give animals
intermittent access to sugar, they'll pull on the levers for
sugar more than cocaine. So that's where you constantly
hear the sugar is more addictivethan cocaine.
It's from those animal studies and it's the intermittent access
where basically there's a periodwhere they're off sugar and then

(11:21):
they go back on it, but it's a constant.
Basically they're consuming it every single day.
And that's the problem with the American diet.
It's hidden in everything. So not most people.
It's true, most people aren't just consuming spoons of sugar,
but they do put it in their coffee.
And when you spike a processed food with sugar, then it just
becomes so much more addictive. So a lot of people are focusing

(11:41):
on the harms of seed oils, whichof course are super damaging and
inflammatory, But you got to understand it's the sugar that
it's driving people to overconsume all a lot of these
processed foods leading to obesity and type 2 diabetes.
So in my opinion, refined sugar is almost just as bad as these
refined seed oils because it drives addiction and

(12:01):
overconsumption of food in the problems of obesity and type 2
diabetes. Wow, we're getting to, This is
my favorite part of our conversation so far because I
feel like a lot of people, they don't have control and they lack
discipline. They beat themselves up so much.
And I, I feel like sometimes we don't hear enough that, hey, not
that it isn't our fault, but that if we have certain

(12:24):
practices that we follow consistently.
And it seems like maybe you can summarize this up until this
point and then we get into the performance part.
But we have a pattern it seems of dehydrating our bodies of
essential, not just water, but these minerals.
And by doing this consistently, just the example of coffee,

(12:46):
right? How many people consistently
like watching right now, you e-mail me guys, everyone does
this. We over drink coffee and we
don't drink and like, oh, give me a big water with that coffee.
We just carve coffee and then we're starving or hungry and we
lose that control. Then we have to have a Big Sugar
muffin or a bunch of fruit or a bunch of sugar or orange juice.

(13:06):
And it just seems to create thisnegative loop of dehydration, of
losing the salt in the water, which causes us to lose control.
Is that in essence, help people understand why as much as they
may have discipline and, and be disciplined in their life, this
is a hard thing to to beat. And it's, it sounds it's more

(13:27):
addictive than heroin, like you said in these lab studies,
right? The sugar seems to draw us
almost like a drug, right? It's never been vilified.
Not that we want to vilify it right now, but if we were, what
would you tell people about sugar and carbohydrates and how
it's truly maybe something more addictive than a drug?
And I think when people do drugs, they get that, oh, I need

(13:48):
help, I need to go into recovery.
But they don't think about it when it comes to sugar because
they think, oh, it's benign, buttell us why it's not benign
maybe, and how maybe someone listening that is a sugar hall.
It isn't their fault possibly, right?
Yeah, no, truly it isn't. And sugar is refined and
processed just like a drug wouldbe.

(14:10):
So think, if you think about opium or you think about
cocaine, they're all highly refined powders from plants.
Sugar comes from sugar cane and you get this highly refined
white crystal. So when you think about the
processing of sugar, it's the same as a drug.
It comes from a similar substance, a plant, natural
plant. Because a lot of people say how
can it be addictive? I can get it in nature.

(14:31):
Well, we got to understand the processing of it.
And when you process something into a very refined white
crystalline form, now you can get spikes in dopamine that you
never could get with just eatinga piece of fruit.
And it's really the level of dopamine that you get.
If you get too high of a level, you'll down regulate the
dopamine receptors that can leadto withdrawal effects and

(14:54):
cravings. And then you're in this vicious
cycle of not just high sugar, low sugars, which is a
physiological dependence now on sugar to try to maintain blood
sugar levels. So now you're in this dopamine
high, low in your body's constantly craving sugar because
of the dips in dopamine. It's the troughs and blood
sugar, the troughs and dopamine that lead the person to

(15:16):
basically crave sugar. And that's what's going on.
Wow, so if someone wants to what's this, Be bold here and
gain radical control over this? Why do I feel like salt may be
the solution? Tell us why, and let's get into
how it solves everything else too, right?
It's certainly number one. It's the biggest mineral that

(15:40):
can be lost to the most rapidly in in in basically you can have
a huge clinical consequence within just an hour or two of
sweating outside in the heat. You can suffer heat stroke if
you don't get enough salt. There's no other nutrient like
that where you can really die within like a couple of hours
from an exogenous thing that's going to deplete it, which
exercising in the heat will do that.

(16:02):
That's number one. We got to understand, yes, we
especially we're eating processed foods, we get enough
salt, but there's so many thingsthat can rapidly deplete the
body of salt. That's what's different about
salt. Not a lot of nutrients get
rapidly depleted in the body andthen salt controls insulin
sensitivity. When you don't get enough salt,
the kidneys in the body will release more insulin to retain

(16:24):
the salt. And now when you have high
insulin levels and you're more insulin resistant, you crave
more sugars, You gain more fat per calorie consumed, which is
so salt controls in a way hungerbecause it controls insulin and
leptin sensitivity. Wow, so with the right amount of
salt and I'm a fan of simple products.

(16:45):
I think you've, you're familiar with things like Elemental Labs,
their products. I put one of these and I have my
32 ounces of water and I've shown this on television and all
that, and you've helped me in magazine articles talk about
salt and all that. But if someone wants a simple
prescription, and then let's getinto why this simple
prescription can give us. I think what I love about your

(17:07):
book is the ability to win in life from the point of view,
from strength, speed. I think endurance is the biggest
thing I think people are lackingright now.
But what would you say as a prescription?
Do you agree with this is I think this one's 1000
milligrams, right, which is about half a teaspoon.
Is that approximately? Right.
Yeah, just under half a teaspoonbe 1000.

(17:28):
And then I put it in 32 ounces of water.
Is that a simple fix something like this or what would you
suggest? So it depends on the person's
diet. If you're consuming a lot of
processed foods, then you're probably getting adequate salt
and you really need to drop the refined carbs and sugars.
But if you're eating a whole food diet now, we don't consume
the blood, the interstitial fluids, the organs.

(17:49):
So the salt has been removed from Whole Foods now.
So you got to replace the salt back with like things like
Redmond Real Salt or what you just showed, like you got to
replace it back. And the study showed that
between 3 and 5000 milligrams ofsodium per day is likely optimal
in regards to decrease risk of alcohol mortality, lower risk of
cardiovascular events, strokes, heart attacks, things like that.

(18:11):
Say that number again for us andthen tell us for anyone's and
whose ears are perking up, they're like, that sounds like
more than what's recommended because the the government for
some reason tends to regulate this or gives a recommendation.
But correct me if I'm wrong, butthey don't for sugar.
And I feel like if you're going to give us a doctor's
prescription here, so background, what would it be

(18:34):
compared to? Because I think people need a
reference point. What is the IT truly is the
government that says, Hey, we should have this much?
And what are your thoughts on that number versus the number
you just gave us? Yeah.
So a lot to unpack there. So number 13 to 5000 milligrams
of sodium is about 1 1/2 to 2 teaspoons of salt.
It's true the government has long recommended to consume less

(18:58):
than one teaspoon of salt, and of course, you can lose more
than that in just one hour of exercise.
So we can basically unpack how that is, you know, completely
just a blanket statement and shouldn't be prescribed
individually because of depending on coffee intake and
how much you exercise. So that's that.
And then three, in regards to governments not regulating sugar

(19:19):
intake, for the longest time, the US Dietary Guidelines said
that it was OK to consume 25% ofyour total calories from added
sugars. And so in the Celtics, like over
the historical and how they changed it and how it was
basically they went from moderate sugar intake to you can
consume up to 1/4 of your entireday's worth of calories as

(19:39):
refined sugar. Whereas for an essential
mineral, they never even said consume at least this amount so
you don't die. It's always just a Zen sign and
as if this isn't an essential mineral.
Wow with that said, what does someone do if they're biggest
has the simple question, but I think it bears having your

(20:02):
opinion on like this idea that doctors use this information
from the government to make recommendations to people and if
people. Are being told by their doctors
to what is what are they typically told about salt?
Oh be careful people. I know if I tell people to drink
salt, the very first thing they think I'm going to have a heart
attack. Literally they're worried about

(20:23):
what what is it? It's high blood pressure.
Tell us how that help us break that down.
So maybe if anyone listening right now is a no, I can't do
salt. My doctor has said not to.
They're basing it on what you just told us and tell us why we
need to say it. Not only do we need to get your
new book, but we need to get theoriginal book because they got
it wrong. And how do we give people, I

(20:46):
don't know what the word is, butthe tools to be able to have an
intelligent conversation with their doctor?
Because I don't think can we winat that?
Is that how do we do that with adoctor?
Because I'm sure a lot of peoplehave been told, what is it that
they've been told, Doctor James,over the years?
Be careful, right? Yeah, told the first thing, if
you have high blood pressure, the doctor's going to say is cut
your salt and take. There's no nuance discussion.

(21:07):
I don't think the goal should beto try to convince your doctor
otherwise because you don't havea lot of time with them anyway
and it's not going to work 99% of the time.
You're not going to change theirmind.
So the goal would be to just clean up your overall diet and
consume an amount of salt that is good for you, that optimizes
how you feel, all your symptoms that you're having.
Most people, when they start introducing salt into their

(21:28):
diet, healthy quality salt, theyinstantly see improvements in
atrial fibrillation, cognition, energy levels, exercise
performance. So you'll know what the right
amount is for you when you startadding it back into your diet.
That's great for those that wantthat that reference out of all
your books or tools out there. I think The Salt Fix is one of

(21:49):
them. The new book, do you get into
that as well? And let's get into that because
from a sense of endurance performance and really
optimized. I mean, for me, I think it's
vitality because I feel like if I'm middle-aged and maybe I'm
not an athlete, but I'm tired all the time.
All I do is, like we said in thebeginning here, as we drink
coffee and coffee, and ironically it's doing the

(22:12):
opposite. It's hard to believe that
caffeine is making us tired, butat one point it takes us up.
But then the dehydration does the opposite.
So explain how we can now use what we've just talked about for
improved endurance and energy, please.
Sure. So there's like a few different
ways that you can think about hydration.

(22:33):
You can think about hydration asOK, I want to acutely boost my
performance or I want to have myperformance improved later on
basically. And how that happens is you
adapt to dehydrations called dehydration acclimation.
So if you're someone who you're about to compete in an event you
want to be basically there's in the book I unpack how to take

(22:56):
these salt solutions, but you start basically 90 minutes prior
to performance or competition. You slowly consume those over
about 30 to 60 minutes and that allows the salt and the fluids
to start boosting the blood volume.
And in the clinical studies, youcan exercise up to 20 to 21
minutes longer, vigorously exercise.
That's the key. Wow.

(23:17):
Which, if you compare that to any other performance enhancing
supplement on the market, including beta alanine and
beetroot juice, those supplements can only boost
endurance by about 1:00 to maybe2 minutes if you're lucky.
So this is salt fluid is 10 to 20 times more powerful in
regards to boosting performance and any other supplement or

(23:39):
performance enhancing enhancing supplement out on them.
How does it work for anyone out there?
I was talking to a client last night because she was helping
review a lot of what were questions from our listeners
from everyday women that are in their 50s and 60s.
Tell us briefly and then I want to get into some of your
nutritional guidelines on protein and fiber about
performance. But briefly, how does blood

(24:03):
volume increase volume give us this edge?
Because I think you get we get that, that this is what happens
when you do the sodium. But how does it give us that
edge in a layman's way, like in a very simple way when blood
when you take in this wonderful fluid with the salt in it, then
your blood volume goes up. How does that, I don't know if

(24:24):
you can dumb it down for us, butexplain it as best you can, how
that impacts truly our energy, our endurance, our appetite,
because with that volume in there, what happens like that?
I guess that's the part I've seen the blood in our bodies go
up. That's tell us what that means
for the blood volume increase and how it works please.
Yeah. So essentially when you start

(24:45):
exercising, you're now shifting blood to working muscle, the
skeletal muscle, and then you'realso shifting blood to the skin
to then dissipate heat and you're losing volume when you
sweat to cool off. So there's not only a true drop
in volume because you are you have to sweat water to cool the
body off, but there's now a shift in blood that used to go

(25:09):
to the heart that is now having to go to the skeletal muscle.
So there's a relative drop in blood volume now feeding the
heart. So there's this massive just
depletion of blood volume within5 to 10 minutes of eight to 10%.
Essentially when you measure it in the arterial supply, because
it's now going into the skeletalmuscle, into the skin, you have

(25:29):
to boost blood volume by 8 to 10%.
So you don't get the drop that occurs within 5 to 10 minutes.
And the way to do that is to take salt and fluids in a fairly
high concentration, essentially a concentration that's very
similar to blood, which is ironic.
And we actually learned how to do this through astronauts.
This would, there's a really interesting story here on, on

(25:50):
hydration. And it's when we send astronauts
in outer space for several days,because there's no gravity,
their blood volume drops. So when they, upon re entry into
the Earth's atmosphere in the gravity, they have this low
blood volume that was causing astronauts to pass out.
So NASA had to figure out how toboost blood volume 2 hours
before re entry. And really a lot of the the data

(26:12):
actually comes from that just kind of.
Wow. And basically the fluid that is
in something like this, 32 ounces of water and I put one of
these packets in there will do that.
In essence, is this kind of, yousaid it's like getting the ratio
down to what blood is to some degree.
It does not taste like blood, but in essence it gives you the

(26:32):
same. It's almost like a transfusion,
right? Is that what it?
I mean, it sounds like we're vampires here, but is it like a
transfusion, right? It really does give us that
edge. And 100% does.
This is again to acutely boost performance, but essentially
between 3000 and 4300 milligramsof sodium per 26 to 33.8 oz

(26:55):
respectively. So 33.8 ounces is a liter of
fluid and 4300 milligrams has been tested as probably the best
way to boost blood volume. That's now pretty high.
A lot of people would say, wow, that's really high.
You don't have to do that though.
Before regular typical exercise,this is OK, I have an NFL game
or I have a UFC fight. You want to be consuming the
three to 4000 milligrams of sodium in that amount of fluid

(27:18):
and adding glycine to that can actually improve the absorption
of salt and decrease core body temperature as well because
glycine is an inhibitory neurotransmitter and that's
actually how it helps us sleep is glycine lowers core body 10.
So I have some protocols on how to do this.
But if you're someone in training camp and you want your
performance to be better two weeks later, what you do is you

(27:38):
come in fully hydrated, but thenyou induce mild dehydration.
Basically, you weigh yourself before training, weigh yourself
after, and you want to see like a 1 1/2 to 2 1/2% drop in body
weight because it's the acclimation to the dehydration
later on. You do that for one to two weeks
and your body will enlarge plasma volume on its own as an

(27:59):
acclamation response to the dehydration, and now you have a
larger blood volume at baseline.So there's different ways to
hydrate, if that makes sense. Oh yeah, no, that makes perfect
sense. And I think I feel like so much
of what has become the questionsa lot of my clients have are
the, the very answers and solutions that all your books
are about. And I feel like you've become

(28:21):
truly the authority on planet earth right now that knows us.
And, and I feel like I wish there were more people, but I'm
just so, so lucky that we have like your work.
And I feel like this book is so powerful for that.
Now there's some items, some bonus items I wanted to get to.
I know we got a little more timehere.
And I think these are important because they impact our
performance. They impact our life.

(28:42):
And outside of salt as much as we could talk about sodium and
and also magnesium, potassium, Ithink you brought you've
mentioned those in the past thatthose are worthy of considering
in our water as well as the one you have just mentioned, which
is glycine, is that right, Glycine.
Yeah, yeah. So in the cell, potassium and
magnesium, more control hydration.

(29:02):
They're the asthma basically. Potassium is really the highest
charged electrolyte in the cell and it helps to pull volume into
the cell. So intracellular hydration
depends on magnesium and potassium, but it it also
depends on salt because salt is the driving force for
electrochemical gradients in general.
Outside of the cell, it's primarily salt that is driving a
lot of the fluid retention. So all three are extremely

(29:24):
important for hydration. I love that.
All right, here it is. We'll go through these rapidly
if we can, maybe a minute or twoon each.
Or if you want to go longer, let's talk about protein.
In your book, you talk about a ratio that I think most of us
can relate to about 1g for 1 LB.Tell us because I always tell my
clients start with protein. Protein is such an essential way

(29:46):
to not just break your fast, butyou need it on a regular basis.
And I know for some people, justto give them an example of this
ratio, 1g for 1 LB and I weigh 200 lbs so I need 200 grams of
protein. Give us that ratio and why that
number for from your perspectivein your research has become
something that it could be a little higher, a little lower,
but it seems to be the average describe that that number and

(30:10):
how protein is so important for performance and for winning in
life, right? Yeah, I think that number is
easy for people to remember. And not a lot of people know
what their lean body mass is. So you can get into the nitty
gritty and say, OK, if you have more actual skeletal muscle than
your protein intake should be higher and you could then base

(30:32):
it off of lean body mass. But not a lot of people know how
much body fat they have. And so that becomes a little
more nuanced but more tricky, the 1g per pound, which is 1g,
basically 2.2 grams of pro per kilogram because kilogram is 2.2
lbs, that's where most of the maximum muscle protein synthesis
occurs. Is is around that range.

(30:54):
But to make it even more simple,for maximum muscle protein
synthesis, essentially 30 to 40 grams of protein four times a
day, it seems to be the optimal amount.
So you basically eat 3 meals andthen maybe you have a protein
shake, 30 grams of casein protein, which is a longer
acting protein before bedtime. That's for maximum muscle
protein synthesis, and that's strictly what you're trying to

(31:14):
do. Gotcha.
And for people that may be following some of our clients do
the OMAG the one meal a day, they do this type of inter
linger fasting. Give us your thoughts on having
the protein at one meal or say athree hour window.
How can that work for us? Hopefully.
I would say I think you'd be part pressed to find someone

(31:35):
consuming one meal a day if they're very active and are
building muscle. Most people are consuming at
least twice a day because that'sgoing to improve muscle protein
synthesis by having at least that second meal versus just one
meal. But it does.
What matters most is the the overall total protein intake for
the day. So you can do that in one meal

(31:56):
per day. That's a that's a lot of protein
to try to consume in one meal. 150 grams of protein would be
something that I would try to hat in one meal.
A nice rib eye, a nice steak, Something big, right?
Yeah, yeah, it'd be. It would certainly be a lot of
meat in one sitting. Yep.
Yep, it's doable. I like that.
Hey, tell us about fiber, because not a lot of people,
believe me or people like DoctorPaul Salad, where fiber has

(32:20):
become something that obviously I recommended when needed to
help with appetite control. There are clients that will use
that and I think it's great. But why outside of maybe holding
up hunger, is it not critical for our health?
Because I think we've been told fiber is critical and just give
us a little bit of your take on it because obviously it serves a
purpose. I think can be very useful, but

(32:42):
I think a lot of people think it's critical.
How do you differentiate betweenessential critical and your take
on fiber? So the.
The discussion on fiber needs tobe much more nuanced, right?
Because I'll consume like a greenish banana, which has more
resistant starch, which, as you said, it's very bulky.
It'll hit the stretch receptors and it gives you, say, tidy very

(33:04):
quickly. That can be sometimes a bad
thing because you might become full really quickly and now
you're not getting the nutrientsthat you need throughout the day
because you're instantly just bulked your whole stomach up.
So it's not always a good thing to simply just consume a ton of
fiber. And we need to understand the
nuance between fiber from Whole Foods different than Metamucil

(33:26):
or just like a supplemental fiber, that those are two
different things. Where people get mad is, yes,
there are studies showing in like animals and, and
potentially even humans too, that if you consume like a
standard American diet where you're combining meat with seed
oils right now, consuming A resistant starch has
improvements on colon health. But, and you can't translate

(33:49):
that data to someone who's consuming like wild game that
isn't charring the meats, that isn't consuming with seed oils
and sugars. You can't translate that data
over to that person. So that's where you have a
discrepancy between people who are eating Paleo saying I don't
eat fiber and then all the people who are evidence based
saying, wait, all these studies show that like the fibers

(34:09):
reducing colon cancer in human when you give it, that's not
that you can't translate that poor diet over to someone who's
eating a whole animal based diet.
So that's really the key is thatthose people that are vegetarian
or, or or try to look at those studies and say you need to be
consuming fiber are going into the nitty Gritty's though of
actually like what the diet is being made of.

(34:31):
So you're saying that depending on what the quality of the food
is. And obviously I know a lot of
our listeners follow more of a healthy protein type of diet and
they're trying to eat really good quality meat as some of
them follow more of a paleo dietlike you said, or keto diet.
And if they're not overly consuming processed foods with I
guess they can inject fiber intoprocessed foods, obviously they

(34:54):
do that as best they can, but itdoesn't always correlate with
good health. And it when it's specifically
the greatest concern that you you think is out there.
Is it more cancer in the colon? Is that the the issue that why
fiber has become this? Like you said, there are a lot
of products out there. And I feel like, not that that's
the only solution, but there areother solutions in eating it,

(35:17):
whether it's a paleo or keto diet, really can give people
that benefit. And those diets tend to have
less fiber. Yeah, I think there's been some
misconceptions on Paleolithic intakes of food.
Essentially, you had a lot larger mammals living for a long
period of time back in the day, woolly mammoths and things like
that. And now you're.

(35:37):
When you look at Paleolithic tribes, they don't have these
large mammals that they can huntanymore, so their meat intake
looks low and their fiber intakelooks high because of what's
happened over the last couple 100 years.
It's not a true accurate way to say that like Paleolithic
ancestors consumed a low meat, high fiber diet.
That's just not the case. Yeah, Yeah, that makes sense.

(35:59):
Yeah, I know on page 188, you talk about fat adaptation,
right? Can you go into that briefly
about how fat and eating healthyfats?
And I think you're very wise to differentiate as we try to do
between vegetable fats and animal fats and these non
vegetable like more fruit fats, I guess like avocado well-being

(36:21):
beneficial, but things like soybean and corn oil.
Maybe you can get into that briefly.
But fat is always a word that polarizes people like salt.
I feel like it's been vilified, but not all fats are created the
same. Could you jump into this fat
adaptation? Because I think it was really
powerful. And this is somewhere on page
188 in your book that I was reading.

(36:43):
Yeah, there's, I guess you can, we can talk about the cooking
oils and what are some of the forms and then we can talk about
being like metabolically flexible and using fat for fuel
to to even improve anaerobic performance.
But basically the seed oils thatyou mentioned, corn, safflower,
soybean, sunflower, sesame, canola, all these things are

(37:04):
terrible to cook with. And so it's not necessarily if
you got, let's say expeller pressed organic Omega six seed
oil, that's, I don't think that's still super healthy, but
it's way worse when you start cooking with those oils because
they have multiple double bonds and they're highly susceptible
to oxidation compared to saturated fat.

(37:25):
So all the studies show that if you cook with an Omega six seed
oil, you get much larger increases in hydro peroxides and
aldehydes which are damaging to the body versus animal fats or
saturated fats of coconut oil onbutter or ghee, large tallow,
things like that. So when you're cooking with the
fat. At least.

(37:45):
The studies that I've looked at,definitely Omega 60 should be
off the table and, and for metabolic flexibility, it is
important to mix your workouts where some workouts you preload
with some complex carbs an hour before, but then you also want
to do some fasted workouts as well.
And that develops metabolic flexibility.
On one system you're using sugar, glucose for fuel, the

(38:09):
other system you're using fat for fuel.
And when you become metabolically flexible, the
longer you can use fats before you hit anaerobic exercise is
going to reserve your glycogen stores and improve even
anaerobic performance, which is essentially vigorous exercise
where you're using glucose. You train in zone 2, which is 60
to 70% of your Max heart to burnfat, and then you train at

(38:33):
Lactaid threshold to burn glucose.
And improving both those metabolic systems is going to
make you a much better athlete. I love that.
I love that athletic kind of strategy.
It's simple, but it's not common, I don't think.
And I think people are scared ofusing fat at times to fuel their
to fuel their lives. And with that said, I know
cholesterol, something you talk about on page 210.

(38:56):
Can you share with us a little bit of that and maybe we can end
on that point because I feel like cholesterol out of all the
facts you've mentioned. And you know, if people replace
those seed oils, these Omega 6 oils with things like butter or
ghee or beef tallow, obviously they have cholesterol, the yolks
of eggs. Why is cholesterol something

(39:16):
maybe dietary cholesterol, something that has been
vilified? And then why I'm guessing you're
going to say it shouldn't be vilified because I sure use it
and and you just suggested it. How did that happen in our heads
in, in, in the world where cholesterol, obviously people
are worried about it for a validreason, right?
Heart health. Is that why and how did we go
wrong there with cholesterol? I think people get confused

(39:39):
because they're constantly told their cholesterol in their body
is something that needs to be just slammed down to 0.
Almost like as if the liver is producing cholesterol for no
reason, which we form hormones off of cholesterol including
vitamin E. So cholesterol is extremely
important vital molecule and it's so vital that our liver
produces 75% of the cholesterol for the day.

(40:02):
Cooking with foods that have cholesterol are you're cooking
with foods that are stable though that have saturated fat.
It's true that if you oxidize cholesterol and you consume
oxidize cholesterol, that may beharmful, but it depends on how
much you're consuming the other antioxidants through throughout
the diet. So that discussion gets nuanced,
too. But I think mostly people fear

(40:23):
dietary cholesterol because theythink it's going to dramatically
drive up their cholesterol levels and lead to heart
disease. But that's really that's an
assumption. Does that happen?
I feel like we've covered so many things.
If there's one point that we haven't shared yet, especially
about this idea of becoming a champion, I love that word.
I feel like in life, you know, for me, I want to live a life

(40:48):
where I'm enjoying every minute as much as possible.
And I feel like a lot of people settle.
They lowered the bar. How can becoming a champion and
winning in life that we can end on this be really impacted by
like our food and our lifestyle choices?
Because I love the forward by Ben Greenfield about really
understanding this. He's a bio hacker of sorts and

(41:09):
really out on the edge and and demanding the most from his
body. And I think as we are now in
2022 and the world is more stressed out than ever, and it
seems like the work we the loadswe have to carry with work and
stress are at the highest levels.
I don't think people are thinking that they can win at
life anymore. Tell us why they can't, because

(41:30):
I think if you can end on that. And maybe it's more the mindset
right, of the champion. And, and I think you cover that
in many parts of the book, though I we didn't pinpoint
that, but how can because I think sometimes you just have to
believe you can be that. And obviously this book is a
tool chest of what to be doing was it feels.
It just gives you so much. That's what I love about your
books. You never you never hold back.

(41:52):
It's a very, it's very rich, very deep lot of information.
But why can't we become a champion?
Because I feel like some people be like, maybe I can have a
little more energy, but a champion.
It's a big word and winning is abig word, but tell us why this
is possible and why we need to get this book.
Because I'm so excited. I have this book in my library
now and I feel like we all need it and, and I think we all can

(42:14):
win, right, Doctor? Doctor.
Jane yeah, no, of course I totally agree with that.
And the book is truly how to improve performance and
recovery. This is the tool guide to how to
improve your athletic gains, whether it's endurance, whether
it's strength and and mindset aswell.
And I think everyone's trying tofigure out how do I destress?

(42:37):
How do I sleep better? Exercise is like the key.
You can't mimic exercise in a pill.
Exercise is going to be the bestthing for your stress, your
sleep, your health. So if you can figure out a way
to optimize your exercise routine and recover from the
better, then it is the key to a good mental health and physical
health. I love that I love that I

(42:58):
started my career a million years ago, since 20 years ago
with a book called 8 Minutes in the Morning.
And I can tell everyone that's watched these podcasts with you
and I, they're aware of that book.
And I feel like for anyone out there that feels I don't even
have 8 minutes, give us end on apep talk.
That's positive because I think what you just said is critical.
And now more than ever, exerciseis the key to do it.

(43:20):
For someone just getting startedthat isn't a champion yet, tell
them from your from doctor's orders, your orders, what they
should do today, right now. If they're listening to us at
night, first thing in the morning, then you know.
Yeah 5 minutes of exercise is better than none so stop setting
yourself up. Like for failure that you have
to be in the gym for an hour anda half otherwise it's not worth

(43:41):
it. It's not the case.
Small steps, consistent daily habits will lead to a stronger
mindset and and better physique.Better, Better health overall.
I love it. All right, case, you heard it
there. Doctor's orders when available
on Amazon everywhere books are sold, obviously, but Amazon is
the place where I think you guyshave this in physical form as

(44:03):
well. It's digital.
Tell them a little bit about where they can get it from your
perspective. And is there an audio as well?
Yeah. So there's a Kindle and
paperback on Amazon. Probably not going to do an
Audible for this one just because how much of the
information is in charts and tables that if you're really not
looking at something, you're notgetting probably half the
information so. Go get it guys.
I think it's one of the best books I've read and it really I

(44:25):
think for 2022 we meet this edgewe need to win this year.
I know a lot of people did not felt defeated and and last year
was a was a tough one for all ofus, but I think this is the
right attitude and the right solution.
So thank you Doctor James for all your time and your hard work
and go get his book win is out now on Amazon.
Thanks, Doctor James. It's a brand new book that we're

(44:45):
going to be talking about today called The Mineral Fix.
And he really has given me, I think, an insight into why we do
what we do when it comes to hunger, when it comes to
cravings like sugar, carbs, and salty snack foods.
And as we know, it's not the salt that's bad for us.
It's the potato chips. It's the corn chips that can be

(45:06):
overwhelming. And we're drawn to these these
carbs. And so he's here today with me.
Doctor James D Nicole Antonio. Doctor James, are you there?
Please say hi. Yeah, I'm excited to be back.
Hey buddy, good to see you. Thank you so much for for making
this happen. This new book, the Mineral Fix,
tell them when this came out. It's literally just out this
week, right? Yeah, came out a couple days

(45:28):
ago. It's something that I had worked
on for for years in the past based on some of my publications
on magnesium and copper and imports whether minerals.
So it's, it's a, it's a lot of science packed into one book.
It's a big book. It's 500 plus pages.
I don't want to say 600 pages, but it's, it is a it is an
incredible manuscript. If you would like a textbook of

(45:50):
really understanding minerals. And I think you have become in
the world, I don't even say in the US, but really one of the
top experts understanding this from a biochemical perspective.
And it's opened my eyes so much.And I feel like your work has
helped people even that, you know, that I work with a lot
like Rob Wolf, you know, Rob Wolf and how much he believes in

(46:11):
sodium, for example. And you, you know, that I have
been sharing with a lot of my followers and a lot of my
clients, Zero Hunger Plan was recently in Woman's World
magazine and you were kind enough to add some of your, your
thoughts to that. And so thank you for that.
And I thought maybe we could start with this premise that
comes from your first book, but it's mentioned in the new book
as well of how we can get radical control of sugar and

(46:36):
carbs. Because my clients know and they
all agree and, and really, you know, we want to control our
appetite and people want to control their, their, their need
to overeat. And when you think about it, and
I think everyone listening agrees that when we overeat,
it's never, we're never overeating butter or eggs or
meats or protein and fats. It's always that one macro

(46:56):
nutrient that we're addicted to because it feels good to eat
carbs, sugar. And I feel like you, you wrote
something recently that you shared with me.
I think it was advice, but you know, you've written The Salt
Fix. So you've done it all.
You've written pop culture stuffand you've written the book
itself. But could you start with
explaining to everyone listeningkind of like a recap of how in
your opinion, and I think it's true, how sugar, even though

(47:20):
it's not classified as a narcotic or as a drug, has in
the brain a similar effect like hard drugs like heroin, cocaine.
I mean, I'll let you kind of take take it from here because I
feel like your work is so powerful and how sodium, one of
my favorite minerals, right? And that's kind of why you wrote
the salt fix. And so maybe from that

(47:41):
perspective, why salt was such the missing mineral in our in
our world when you wrote that, but how many years ago, Doctor
James? Probably.
Four years ago. So just four years ago, I mean,
you write a lot of great books, but I feel like that one set you
on the map as the salt guy. All right.
And so maybe start with why saltis so powerful, helping us get

(48:02):
control over sugar and carbs because everyone listening right
now in some way or another has asweet tooth.
And I think, you know, I always tell people it's on our fault
because it does feel good. It does work like like a drug,
like a narcotic, like heroin or cocaine and these other drugs.
But maybe take us there for a minute about how sugar can be in

(48:25):
your mind can be connected to hard drugs and how sodium,
whether it's sugar or a hard drug, you know, whether it's
heroin or cocaine, how sodium can help us kind of set
ourselves free from that is, is that something you can you could
start with, please? Yeah, absolutely.
So essentially, I mean, if you even if you take a look at
alcohol, right, some people can drink alcohol and they're

(48:47):
totally fine and then other people's can become an
alcoholic, right. And so it just depends on the
person and this, and we see a very similar pattern with sugar.
Some people that eat sugar become sugar holics, other
people, not so much. So it definitely depends on the
person. But essentially how sugar is
refined from a plant is very similar to opium, very similar

(49:09):
to cocaine. It's actually basically the
same, right? You take the plant and you
refine it to a white crystallinepowder, right?
Same thing like cocaine. And when you do that, when you
extract a single ingredient froma plant and highly refine it,
put it into a crystalline form, now that that substance can
cause this dramatic spike in dopamine in the brain, which

(49:29):
leads to dopamine crashes. And it's during those troughs
that your brain sort of it has this addictive.
I need to consume this again to get the same type of higher
reward. Now a very similar thing happens
when you are deficient in salt. Your, your reward center becomes
hyperactivated. And that actually would have

(49:51):
kept us alive because how would we know we were deficient in
salt unless our brain was hyperactivated to get it?
Meaning if you got it in the diet, your brain would light up
greater if you were deficient init to tell you to keep consuming
this mineral that you were deficient in or salt.
So if you're deficient in salt, you have this hyperactive reward

(50:14):
center in the brain now that if you start throwing things like
sugar at it, it's even more addictive.
Wow, So from your research and especially from your first book,
The Salt Fix, I feel like you would say if someone wants to
control and, and I don't think we have a lot of listeners that
are using hard narcotics, but this idea that sugar is a drug

(50:35):
is 100% in the sense of the brain accurate, right?
It acts just. Like it, right?
And if they want to get control over that, so they can say no to
the candies, the cookies, the M and Ms. the pizza, the nachos,
the list goes on and on. The pasta, all the, all the
things that we love. And I grew up in a Latin family
like you, I think. And you know, I, I was more

(50:57):
beans and rice and, and Mexican food and you're more Italian.
But as much as that's comfort food, it can, it's, it tends to
be the thing we overeat the mostand causes insulin to go up and
causes us to gain weight and cancause when paired with salt,
right to compare, can cause our blood pressure to go up.
So going on a low carb diet, I think is, is been instrumental
for a lot of my clients and myself.

(51:18):
So if people want to be able to do that and stay low carb, low
sugar, can you take one more minute and share with us how a
drink with sodium in it, kind oflike what we what Women's world
talked about in the zero hunger water world, right, was able to
create like this? I mean, how would you describe
it? It really gives you a sense of
control, right, over the abilityto say no to sugar and carbs,

(51:41):
right? Yes.
Both from a brain perspective and a physiological perspective.
Essentially, when you're not getting enough salt, your brain
again is hyperactivated. You're you're getting more of a
reward from these refined carbohydrates.
But when you're on a low carb diet, you're spilling more salt
in the urine, you need more salt.
And so that's where a lot of people struggle too with keto
diets, even after the first couple weeks as they crave more

(52:04):
salt and sometimes that crosses over and they think that craving
is actually for sugar. So it's getting getting those
signals correct and not crossingthem.
Wow. And then I mean, I know the
results when you can eat a diet that's lower in carbs and sugar.
I mean, your health improves so much.
And then for people out there just to, to, to start with this,
because I know people, you know,it have written me because of

(52:27):
our interviews that we've done about salt.
Their number one concern is like, Oh, my doctor said I can't
have salt because my blood pressure.
So take one minute and let's dive into the new book, but
another minute on how that is a misunderstanding and how at
times it can raise blood pressure sodium, but only when
you're having a high carbohydrate diet, right when

(52:48):
there's insulin present. Talk a little bit on that
because I think a lot of people have just taken the idea that
sodium is dangerous, you know, and it's going to kill me.
It's like I'm not going to drinksalt water.
That's crazy like that. That's going to kill me.
Tell us clarify this misunderstanding of of how that
happens because it only happens when we do high carbs, right?

(53:11):
Right, exactly. I mean, so we need a blood
pressure to live. Blood pressure is important.
A lot of people suffer from what's called orthostatic
hypotension or low blood pressure, and they've noticed
that that instantly improves if they increase their salt intake.
And so we need salt. It's the people that are over
retaining. And why are they over retaining?

(53:32):
Because the kidneys can get rid of a ton of salt.
If you overeat that the kidneys will just dump that.
So what's causing you to over retain the salt?
So don't focus on the quantity of salt itself.
Focus on things like low potassium is probably the number
one contributor to why people are over retaining salt and
insulin resistance from over consuming refined carbohydrates

(53:53):
and sugar. You fix those two things as well
as magnesium deficiency and you're going to eliminate at
least 90% of salt sensitive people.
So if someone is listening rightnow, they're like, what?
Like you're saying, if I cut down basically carbs and eat a
low carb diet bread and add somemagnesium, potassium to my

(54:13):
sodium, which everyone knows about 0 hunger water, that's
basically the three minerals that are in there.
Rob Wolf knows this too. Obviously we all know this.
That's why we love elemental labs and all that.
That literally you don't have toworry about blood pressure
because I feel like you're the only person that I trust that
would say this. And yet no one else at your

(54:35):
level, I think is saying this enough.
I mean, that's why I think that book was such a pivotal book,
the salt fix, because you kind of basically said it on the
cover of the book, why the experts got it wrong.
And I feel like just take us on that journey in your mind,
because I feel like everyone listening, if they're going to
listen to the mineral fix, they got to understand that sodium

(54:56):
and what you're saying there with magnesium, potassium is
important and will not harm you.It will only harm you when you,
when you add the carbs in. I mean, and, and that seems so
like no one talks about that, that, that pairing and how it's,
it's the carbs with the salt that raises blood pressure,
right? But if you don't pair that, the
carbs in the blood pressure doesn't stay high to stays

(55:17):
optimal, right? And you feel like you have
energy, you have control over the carbs.
I, I mean, I, I, you know, I do,Oh mad.
I do one meal a day and I feel great all day, have high energy.
I don't feel dizzy, you know, and, but I feel like a lot of
people like what you just said. If you can say it one more time
and say it, and maybe in a way that people can understand that

(55:38):
it's safe, that the sodium is not the villain.
Right. Salt, which is sodium and
chloride is an essential mineral.
And if you're healthy and you don't have these three
contributing factors that are causing you to over retain salt,
your kidneys will get rid of anything they don't need, but
they can't manufacture salt. So it's much safer to get a

(55:59):
little bit more than you need versus less than you need.
Yeah, I remember in one of our podcasts, remember, you told me
about the invention of the refrigerator in the 1930s.
And could you share that story briefly?
And then let's get into the new book, because our diet before
the 1930s tell people how much salt needs to get right.
Yeah. I mean, for the last 10,000

(56:20):
years prior to the invention of the refrigerator, we had to use
a tremendous amount of salt to actually preserve the food and
it takes a lot of salt to do that.
So the average intakes throughout Europe in the 1600s,
fifteen hundreds as well, was probably upwards of 100 grams of
salt, anywhere from usually 50 to 100.

(56:40):
And then in the Roman Empire, itwas about 25 to 30 grams of
salt, which is about, that's about four times a normal salt
intake. So it was never a problem then
for those individuals. And then what ended up happening
is we discovered the refrigerator in 1930s
essentially, and we didn't need to pack our food with a lot of
salt. So essentially our salt intake

(57:02):
went down. Wow.
And in today's world, just to give people a reality check, our
government in the US and outsideof the country, I don't know
what if you know of the rules, but the amount of suggested
salt, where is that? Because it's down low.
It's like down. Here they tell us to consume is

(57:24):
only 6G. That's the most apparently we're
allowed to have. But you can you can lose that
amount in just one hour of exercise through sweat and the
heat. So there's there's a huge amount
of nuance to that statement. You can't just give general
blank statements on eat less than X amount.
Of and remind us, who's saying this is the American Heart

(57:44):
Association? Who's the?
American Heart Association, Yeah, they've always, for the
longest time, been the most restrictive, saying essentially
less than 1/2 of salt per day. And again, that's because it's
on top of a population that's insulin resistant, that doesn't
eat potassium, doesn't eat magnesium.
What happens when you give a high amount of salt, not even a
normal amount. Let's actually give people twice

(58:06):
the amount of salt compared to what we consume in the United
States. And I sent you that study.
It was a Japanese study. They had essential high blood
pressure and they were consumingtwice a normal salt intake.
If they just increase the potassium from 3 to 7g, their
blood pressure normalized. And that's really one of the
best papers in the salt fix thatkind of shows it's really the

(58:28):
low potassium that's the issue. Wow.
All right, we'll clue that in the show notes.
We'll, we'll definitely include all those studies because I feel
like your books have citations. I mean just the salt fix in
itself had over 3. 100, is that right?
Yeah, over 500. Over 500 and the new mineral fix
I mean has length almost. 5000. I mean, talk about research.

(58:50):
So let's get into the mineral fix because I feel like tell us
the background on this book because you wrote this from what
you just said earlier, not not recently.
I mean, you started it. How about that you started it?
When and how is this different than the Salt Fix and who needs
this book? Because I feel like it's a
textbook that is at a college level.
So it's the salt fix was more for, I mean, I got it easy.

(59:12):
This one I had to read carefully, and it's long, but
tell us how you look at this book as a tool versus your other
books and especially the Salt Fix.
Right. So this the mineral fixes is set
out a little bit differently in regards to every chapter.
It's basically broken down into which mineral that you need.
And so it covers 17 essential minerals in five, possibly

(59:35):
essential minerals that haven't been classified yet as
essential, like chromium, but are still important for the
diet. And so each chapter gives you
food sources, highest food sources for that mineral.
It goes into every enzyme that that mineral is important for.
It gives you a chart on the optimal intake, not just the
RDA, which is just to prevent deficiency, but really this book

(59:58):
is about what's the optimal amount of minerals that we
should be consuming. And you know, besides that, it
also goes into how our food is so depleted in minerals for just
from the last 80 years. And so that causes overeating as
well because we're eating this diluted food.
Yeah, and I feel like with the world changing so much with, you
know, this almost debate that's occurring, whether it's Bill

(01:00:21):
Gates telling people to not eat meats and eat synthetic meat.
I had Dave Asprey on the show recently.
We talked about how in his opinion, Dave Asprey's opinion,
that isn't right. We need animal protein.
And there's a way to do it wherethe Earth is, is put it, you
know, put as a priority where you do regenerative agriculture,
where it's good for the Earth, it's good for the plants, it's

(01:00:43):
good for the animals and all that.
Would you share with us briefly why a plant source versus meat
source? Like if we were to look at
these, these minerals that you talk about in the book?
And, and, and obviously I want everyone to pick this up as I
feel like it's a resource that is so important.
It's almost like an encyclopediabook that has, like you said,
all the minerals. Maybe walk us through.

(01:01:05):
I mean, obviously, I, I still believe salt, magnesium,
potassium are the, the, the Trinity, the first three that
are probably the most important.Would you say, could you start
with those 3 and recap on those and then get into, you know,
let's not do all of them, but the ones that that I think that
that you think especially peoplein midlife need to embrace?
And then let's talk about some sources, because I know there's

(01:01:27):
a lot of plant based sources, there's meat based sources and
then there's there's water sources And, and I love like
you, there's some simple optionsout there because I feel like,
you know, I don't want, I don't want to scare people where they
have to go buy 17 vitamins and minerals and pop like, you know,
and spend a fortune 4 or $500 a month on on vitamins.
And a lot of my clients are ketoand a lot of them are following

(01:01:49):
more of a of a meat based diet. So I don't want them to feel
like they have to buy a ton of plants too.
But I think you've got some great solutions that simplify it
all for us. But take us through some of the
top minerals in the book. And if you were to say the top
three, would you say that the salt, magnesium, potassium, I
don't know if you call it the Trinity?
Are those the the three base to build upon?

(01:02:10):
Possibly. Yeah, absolutely.
And calcium too. And especially so if we're
looking at an animal based diet,which I follow.
Typically you're, you're going to be a little bit low on the
magnesium, the calcium, potentially the potassium.
So if you can find waters or powders to add to your water
that meets and UPS boosts those minerals, that's going to not
only help you handle your salt intake, but it's going to help

(01:02:33):
every organ in the body. And magnesium is so important
because there's so many different things that cause us
to lose magnesium. You have to have good stomach
acid to digest it and absorb it.You have to have good insulin
sensitivity so you can drive it into the cell and so you're not
losing it. And a lot of our foods, both
animal and plant foods, are somewhat depleted in magnesium
compared to before. So we had discussed what water

(01:02:56):
would be good for magnesium and calcium and things like that and
that with Gerald Steiners 1 San Pellegrino has good amounts of
calcium and magnesium in it and and both of them have well
particularly Gerald Steiner brings back some of the
bicarbonate which is even of that another advantage for an
animal based. And if there was a water brand
that you love, that is the one. I think you've talked about it

(01:03:17):
before on the other podcast. Do you happen to have some there
to show everyone who's watching on the YouTube?
This is it right here. That come out guys, and tell us
about this water. Where's it made?
Why? Why do you have it?
I mean, obviously you love this water.
Yeah, it, well it's, it's sourced from Germany.
It's actually about 500 feet below the ground.
And so the water passes through all the natural mineral rocks

(01:03:37):
and it picks up the the magnesium and the calcium
through that flow. And so you're not getting also
the environmental pollutants because it's so far down in the
ground. And there is there is this
importance of balancing acid base in the body.
A lot of people get confused about this.
They think you that your diet doesn't contribute to the pH

(01:03:58):
because your blood pH maintains the same.
But the the tissues can become acidic if you don't get some
source of base. So natural mineral waters are
typically a good source of base to add to an animal based diet.
That's great. So I mean, how far would you
take the Gerald Steiner, right? That's what it's called Gerald
Steiner water. Can it be, I mean, I'm not

(01:04:21):
saying it's the magic multi or multi mineral as we're talking
minerals are not vitamins, but can you get almost all the
minerals you need from from fromthat water possibly.
If you're eating nose to tail, adding this is going to.
Hit most of what you could be missing.
Wow. I mean that simplifies it.
I mean that's German water for you, right?

(01:04:43):
I mean that's it's incredible that it has an out of.
And then you mentioned Pellegrino, how was that one
compared? Not the same because that that's
Italian. Right, right.
It's not 100% the same. So Pellegrino has less
magnesium, about the same calcium, and it has a little
more sulfur in it. So it's not the exact same, but
it's it's a good way to get extra calcium in some magazines.

(01:05:03):
Now, if someone isn't able to find the Gerald Steiner water,
is there a way? Because you know, we, we kind of
created the zero hunger recipe with the half a teaspoon of salt
and a small amount of magnesium,potassium.
And I think it's a good mix of the three.
If they wanted to add a few moreminerals to that in a powder

(01:05:26):
form, are there some brands of that or maybe even a multi
mineral? Or maybe if it's not a multi
mineral, some other brand names that you would recommend as
sources where people can purchase online or you know or
get a Whole Foods or different stores like that?
Yeah, I mean there are Whole Foods sources and multivitamins.
I know you and I discussed Nutrigold is one of them so.

(01:05:47):
That's a brand, correct? Nutrigold, tell us why you like
that brand, for what reason, andwhat minerals do they offer and
and which one would you suggest if someone's Googling this?
Right. Well that it's one of the only
companies that actually has, it's a food based multivitamin.
So it's not synthetic vitamins and minerals.
It's essentially you allow the plants to take up the minerals

(01:06:08):
and vitamins and you get from the plant doctor.
Mercola has something similar. He has AB complex from quinoa
sprouts. So if you can source from these
sort of like whole food multivitamins, it's going to be
better than your typical synthetic.
Wow, give us the brand one more time.
The gold. Nutrigold.
Nutrigold. So nutrigold.

(01:06:29):
And is there one in particular, Is it like a multi mineral that
just has it all in one? Yeah, it has a women's multi and
they have a men's multi. And do you think there is a big
difference between those two? It could help, I mean, more for
women. Are there minerals for women,
minerals for men? Because we should talk about
that. I mean, since we're talking
about that book. But with those brands, you
would, you would lean into the men's version, women's version

(01:06:51):
or is that made-up or not, right?
Well, typically women, if they haven't gone through menopause,
you need a lot more iron becauseof men.
See. So typically that be your
biggest difference between a multi with for a women versus a
man and it's a. Higher.
It's a higher. Typically, women need about 18
milligrams of iron per day, whereas men only need about 8.

(01:07:11):
OK, all right, so there's that difference here.
Simple difference, but. And so Nutra Gold is the brand.
Get the woman's version, ladies,because it's going to have more
iron and men don't. I mean, we don't need as much
iron and that too much iron in aman's body cannot hurt us or.
Right, yeah. I mean, it could hurt anyone, a
man or a woman. But like you said, it's we don't
dump iron like women do once a month.

(01:07:32):
So yes, yes, that's the whole that's the cycle of life out
obviously. Well, so this is incredible.
So take us through a little bit of the, of the minerals that,
and so the main mineral is, is iron.
Obviously if you're a woman, youneed to consume a little bit
more of, but if we use this brand, the nutrigal or the
water, do we, what are some of the effects?

(01:07:53):
And I, and I feel like I know there's certain issues that my
clients have with energy, thyroid issues, hypertension
concerns. How do these minerals give us?
Because I think your book, the cover says a lot.
It says how to optimize your mineral intake for energy,
longevity, immunity, sleep and more.

(01:08:15):
And I feel like that covers a lot from a perspective of women
that are listening right now. What are outside of iron?
Is there any other minerals for women and energy, longevity,
immunity, sleep that you would suggest And and or is it about
the same outside of just iron for men and women?
What would you say? Yeah, well of magnesium is huge

(01:08:36):
for energy because energy in thebody, we all think of it as ATP
really what what energy is, is magnesium has to dock onto ATP
1st and that's how it can actually release the terminal
phosphate bond and release the energy.
So ATP floating around actually isn't energy at all until
magnesium docks on it, clips theterminal phosphate and releases

(01:08:58):
the energy. So you can't.
You can't activate energy, you can't even make ATP without
magnesium. So you got to have magnesium for
both men and women, and that's the same amount for both sexes,
right? There's no difference there.
Typically men is is a little bithigher.
I think the RDA for an adult woman is 400 and an adult man is
4/20, so just 20 milligrams more.

(01:09:19):
Hey, it's Jorge and I just wanted to interrupt the show
just for a moment to invite you to head on over and sign up for
my 0 Hunger e-mail that'll give you each day a simple what to
eat to get radical control over your sugar, carb and salty snack
food cravings. And if this is something you
want to conquer and make a lifestyle, the newsletter is
important. It will really give you tools

(01:09:41):
every day to keep building that momentum to create a lifestyle
where you're in control of sugarand carbs.
So if that sounds good, check itout.
Simply go to 0hungerplan.com. I'll spell it for you.
It's with AZZERO 0 Hunger Plan dot com and it's all free.
I'll see you there. Let's get back to the show.

(01:10:07):
Do you feel these Rdas? Because when it comes to salt,
we don't listen to the Rdas because they're incredibly too
low, correct? I feel like in the book, is
there a section where you give them the Doctor James Rdas
versus the government's? Because I feel like to look at
the government's, I feel like you're going to probably correct
all of it. I mean, or do they have these
other minerals down? What do you think?

(01:10:29):
For for most of the minerals, the Rdas are too low in regards
to the Doctor James optimal. And you're right, I do have
these. Every chapter has graphs in
regards to here's what the RDA says, here's what we think the
optimal intake should be. And for almost all the minerals,
the Rdas are too low. So for magnesium we say anywhere

(01:10:51):
from 400 to 600 so that the lower end of our optimal is
they're essentially top end of of their RDA that you're OK.
And really it's it's probably the not necessarily the best.
They got it somewhat OK for magnesium, but for others
they're way off base. I love that.
So we've talked magnesium, we'vetalked sodium, you talked about

(01:11:13):
potassium. And I think that's one that we
talked about in Zero Hunger Water.
Tell us about potassium and how we can help us with our energy,
longevity, immunity, everything,including our appetite control,
because I feel like those are the Trinity in my mind.
And then maybe some other ones that we haven't talked about
that obviously are important forother things, maybe whether it's
immunity or sleep. And I know you talk in the book

(01:11:35):
about COVID-19. So I think when we get to
immunity, you know, very, very timely topic is still immunity
function and how that can be helped.
But could you, we've talked sodium, we've talked magnesium,
right? Tell us about potassium a little
bit. Sure.
So potassium is sort of like theregulator of salt.
If you want to be able to handlea normal amount of salt, you do

(01:11:57):
not want to be deficient in potassium.
It doesn't take a big deficiencyfor you to start over retaining
salt if you're not getting enough potassium.
So you really want to be gettingat least 3 1/2 grams of
potassium per day. But ideally and optimally, we
want to anywhere from 4 to 6G per day.
OK, and and, you know, I always used to think that bananas were

(01:12:17):
the only source of potassium. My mom grew up in South America
and and was tropical in Colombiaand she'd have bananas all the
time. And as much as I like bananas, I
hate to think that bananas have almost depending on how, how you
know, right they are. And I know we've talked about
green bananas, right? And I've had a lot of people

(01:12:37):
e-mail me like, I'm not going toeat a green banana.
That's like too, because they'renot sweet.
I mean, they're not, they're sour.
So most people buy the yellow bananas and, and then, you know,
and then when they get a little too brown, my mom used to love
them brown because they get sweeter right when they get
darker. What would you say is another
source outside of plant based bananas?
Because obviously can we get those three?

(01:13:00):
I, I, I don't know, we, we talked about this, I think we
may have before we started our, our talk, but can we get the
magnesium, the potassium and thesodium from a carnivore type of
meat based diet? Is that in there?
And what are some other sources and ways to get that nutrient,
that mineral that a lot of timesyou always think of potassium,
bananas, you think of other sources like that.

(01:13:21):
But if we're trying to avoid a high sugar intake, bananas have
that. Unfortunately, especially the
ones that most people eat, they don't eat the green ones, you
know? True, true.
Very true. No meat.
Meat and especially fish are good sources of potassium, no
doubt. I mean, there are other plant
sources of potassium like under or lightly cooked potatoes.

(01:13:42):
Avocados are good sources of potassium.
Carrots are a good source of potassium and spinach too.
Spinach is a group and here's here's and what's interesting
for I think a key take away for a lot of women is that spinach
is a good source of potassium ormagnesium, but it's not a good
source for iron. So a lot of women, they see the

(01:14:03):
package of spinach very high in iron, but it's bio availability
is only 2%, whereas in meat it's20%, it's 10 times higher. 2.
Differences. And, you know, we've had Paul
Salvino on the show, and he has his plant toxicity spectrum that
I think you're somewhat familiarwith.
And, you know, he limits certainplants.
And I've adopted some of his principles to some degree.

(01:14:24):
My clients do seem to feel better when they limit their
plants to more like squash, avocados, berries.
He kind of leans us out of the of the ones that have more of
these toxins, as he says if there if we were to lean into
the lower toxic ones, I would say avocados are great.
Is avocado, as much as I don't think of it like a banana, it's

(01:14:44):
as rich as say said something like a banana.
But meat is better, is actually better than even an avocado in
the sense of its content. For those men, I would.
Say it's comparable. I would say it's comparable.
OK yeah, avocado is a great source of potassium.
I. Love that and for the people out
there thinking all right, meat, like all right away.
You know, I talk about it a lot.You eat a lot of meat.

(01:15:06):
I mean you do and as much as you're Italian and I'm, you
know, I was born in Mexico City and I love my beans and rice.
I try to minimi minimize that and I love potatoes on occasion.
I don't sit and eat just, you know, a lot of French fries.
That was my weakness when I was younger.
And potato chips, of course, butwith a, with more of a meat
based diet, how can we acquire these minerals?

(01:15:28):
I mean, I feel like you, you shared at one point, I think in
a past podcast, the idea of ancient man, right?
And and kind of following, I think you called it the salt
trail or what was it called the salt path?
Yes, yeah, we used to follow animals, their animal trails to
this, to their salt, Lex to obtain salt.

(01:15:50):
And you know I do, you don't have to follow what I do.
But essentially for me, I'd liketo add a few sources of
additional potassium and magnesium to my animal based
diet. So essentially I eat about 1 1/2
lbs of meat per day and some of that is coming from liver and
heart as a blend. So most people don't like to

(01:16:10):
consume liver or heart directly and either do I.
So you can buy them as blends where there's 75% ground meat,
25% liver and heart, and that way you don't really taste.
That beef kind of, but it's ground up.
Give us the organs you eat againbecause I think this is really
practical yeah. So it's which organs again?
Give us the the layout of the the the way you ground up that

(01:16:32):
this meat, it's Oregon meat again.
Yeah, you. Can just essentially order this
from online. There's many places that offer
it, White Oaks Pasture, North Star, Bison, Force of Nature
Meats, and essentially it's a, it's a ground meat and it's 75%
muscle meat, 25% split in half of liver and heart.

(01:16:53):
So that is really a perfect, I mean, if we're talking about
sources of minerals that how howmuch of what we need is in just
what you just said quite a bit, right.
It's like the water a shortcut with what you just said that
that sorry, that's OK. Oh, did we lose you for a SEC?

(01:17:15):
You. Still there?
No, yeah, we we dropped for a second.
We'll just do a pick up right there.
But I was just mentioning if youcould share like you mentioned
this mixture of the meat of 70, what was it 75% and then half
heart and half liver, right. If we were to take this up and
it does it come like ground beef?
It looks like burger meat. Or how does it look when you get

(01:17:35):
it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
It looks like burger ground meatand you can essentially just
make Taco meat with it, put somespices in it, or you can make.
Meatloaf, tacos, all that stuff.So if we eat this combination
that obviously you can get, I'veheard of the the what was some
of the companies that you use orthat you order from?

(01:17:56):
North Star Buys and White Oaks Pasture and Force of Nature.
So if we were to use one of those companies, we'll include
that in the show notes guys and,and, and incorporate this into
our diet as a, as a key element.How much of what we need from
your book in the mineral fix arewe going to get from eating that
source, would you say? Quite a bit, right?
Yeah, it's, well, the liver is so important because it's going

(01:18:18):
to give you copper, vitamin A, folate.
And so it's, it's a perfect balance to the muscle meat and
it really gives you the a lot ofthe minerals that are missing
from muscle meat. So one of the interesting people
I had on the show contradicted that saying that Sean Baker, do
you know Doctor Baker, right? He's written a couple of

(01:18:40):
carnivore books. But he, unlike Paul Saladino,
doesn't believe we need a lot oforgan meat because he believes a
lot of the same minerals are found in the meat of the animal
the the the muscle meat, right? Can you help clarify that?
Because I think you, you probably lean into obviously
what you just said, which is what Saladino would say, is that
the organ meat is your ultimate source of these richer vitamins

(01:19:03):
that you're not getting in, you know, whether it's a steak, rib
eye, burger meat. Maybe explain that for us.
Because I feel like I know our audience would appreciate that.
Because I have myself have stopped eating a lot of liver
because I thought it wasn't as as essential.
But I'm feeling motivated right now.
Before you just said that I needto get some heart meat and liver
meat back into my diet on a regular.

(01:19:24):
Do you do this every every week,every day?
How often do you eat that mixture?
What? What do you call that mixture of
the 75 and then the heart and liver?
I mean, I feel like this is likea big distinction.
Yeah, You could just call it like a ground organ blend of
meats. OK.
That also contains muscle meat. Yeah.
And it's true. Muscle meat is lacking in copper

(01:19:47):
foliate in vitamin A. So you will most likely become
deficient if you're only consuming muscle meat for a
decade in those nutrients, and it will probably happen much
quicker than that. So bringing in the heart, but
you would say if you were to rank them muscle meat, of
course, then yeah, liver, correct Number 2, liver and then

(01:20:10):
heart. Just like 1/2 an ounce to 1
ounce of liver per day is reallyall that's needed as you don't
need much. And the heart is great for
coenzyme Q10, right? And that gives us energy.
It's important for the electron transport chain.
So it gives us ATP. So it gives you some energy.
I love this because I feel like as much as you recommended some
brands of multivitamins that we can purchase and even the water

(01:20:33):
we can drink, this is really a food based source.
The organs. Are there any other parts of an
animal that we should consume orare those the two main parts?
It's the muscle meat, the heart,the liver.
Is there another part? Because I know people sometimes
get into bone marrow and that's collagen, which I consume as
well. I like that as a soup, but are
there minerals in the marrow of the bone or other parts that

(01:20:54):
you'd suggest? I think this is.
Important there's some good there's some good fats in the
bone and some people who consumekidney.
You have to be careful with kidneys though, because they'll
they accumulate the toxic heavy metal cadmium.
So I don't typically like to eata lot of kidneys.
Really liver is the perfect multi mineral to add to muscle
knee. Wow, so that and then heart as

(01:21:15):
well. And what?
And with the heart little less than the liver or about the same
you just do right down the middle, right?
Yeah, exactly. They're they're split equal, but
I think I just like consuming the heart because we would have
consumed that and it's really one of the only good sources,
natural sources of Coq 10. Wow, wow.
And for people listening that are vegans, and I'm not saying
being a vegan is bad because youcan get a lot of good sources

(01:21:38):
from that. And, and obviously in the plants
are carbohydrates and, and you know, most people nowadays,
whether they're plant based or not, you know, it's it's almost
like religion. People are very polarized by one
or the other. But is there an argument?
I mean, obviously you walk your talk and you're more meat based.
You have some, I'm sure carbs and being Italian.

(01:22:01):
I know you, you know, you sharedlast time your sauce your wife
makes, which is more of a meat based sauce.
And I don't think you mentioned pasta in that sauce, right?
There isn't that much pasta, right?
How do you because I feel like Iknow your secret weapon to say
no to pasta as much as you're Italian.
It's salt, right? It turns out that craving.

(01:22:21):
It's kind of like how we startedthe conversation.
But for anyone out there who's Italian like you and says no
way, I can't stop eating pasta and bread and all that.
How does does what you do give you that strength?
And when do you sometimes say, all right, I'm going to have
some pasta, I'm going to have some pizza?
You know, I'm not saying Domino's, but maybe something a
little better? Or do you just do, do you

(01:22:42):
yourself, as much as you're Italian, just have leaned more
into the, the meat based side that the Italian culture has
because there's great meat. I've been to Italy, I love Italy
And, and, or do you do the carbsat times, you know, the pastas
and all the traditionals? How do you, how do you know in
your mind when to when to enjoy that?
Or do you just say, you know what, I'm good, right?

(01:23:03):
Well, I think I mean for carbohydrate intake is sort of
it depends on how lean you are and how physically active you
are and how much you exercise, right?
Any, any athlete will tell you they're most athletes will
refuel with carbohydrate and they'll take some longer acting
carbs prior to performance to boost muscle glycogen levels.

(01:23:25):
So all carbs aren't bad if they're whole food carbs and
you're highly active person, right.
And so that's kind of how the approach I take it.
I like to exercise more and fuelmyself with the the nutrients
rather than, you know, fast all the time, so to speak.
Yeah, yeah. So with with your desire for
pasta, like if you're, if you'rehaving your, I'd love to share

(01:23:48):
the recipe again because we had it in the last show notes.
But this meat sauce I share witheveryone this, this incredible
recipe that we shared with them on the last show.
It's something your wife makes and you guys make as a family.
But how do you say no to the carbs in that?
Because you don't usually have it with any pasta, right, Doctor
James? Right.
No, yeah, no, typically I it's like it's just like a meat sauce

(01:24:09):
really. And I've personally never craved
pasta so. And maybe it's because I've
been, I've been more on a lower carb intake for a while.
And so I think when you can, when you ship fuels, you no
longer really crave it anymore. Yeah, and I feel like, and I bet
the meat that you put in your meat sauce is the meat you just

(01:24:29):
told us it's that blend, right? So it has the.
Liver, yeah. Or it could just be it could be
pork and sausage. I love that.
And then for for the people thathave kids, grandkids that are
watching and if they wanted to use your recipe and make it
delicious, which it is, I've tried it and it's so good.
How can they can they sneak in the organ meat into that sauce?

(01:24:52):
I mean, it's hard to distinguishsomething.
It's a little tougher, but if it's ground up, it's kind of
gets in there. And then you give Someone Like
You would share this with your family, your friends.
It's this incredible nutritious,almost like perfect meal, right?
It really is minus the carbs. Exactly.
You could just cook it in the pan and then throw it right in
the sauce. Good to go.

(01:25:14):
I love it with with desserts andtreats.
Give us your take because you know, a lot of people, even
Doctor Oz talks about this on his show a lot about
resveratrol, certain minerals and and vitamins and nutrients
that are found in treats such aswine.
And I know being Italian, they're people that love red
wines, white wines. How do you play with whether

(01:25:38):
it's alcohol, desserts, which are straight up sugar And I, I
mean, not to end on how sugar isthe villain, but I know you
believe that as as I do that sugar is something to be
avoided. What do you do with your family,
with your kids, with your with with your loved ones when it
comes time to after the main meal, you have your meat sauce.
You have your, your your. Your protein.

(01:26:00):
That's a blend, hopefully of allthese incredible nutrients with
the sauce that you love. How do you take into account
alcohol desserts, the things that typically that's where we
can go crazy and especially sugars and all that, you know,
and alcohol red wine too. Or do you just I mean, how would
tell us what, how, how you do it?
I mean, the simplest thing is just to not have it in the

(01:26:21):
house, right? And especially the things that
really trigger you. So like my smell like if it's
my, the things that'll get me are doughnuts or, or like a
moist brownie. So, so know, know the things
that'll really get you or a buttery carb is something that
gets me where it's like chocolate.
It doesn't. I don't really binge on
chocolate. So sort of keep out of the house

(01:26:42):
the things that you know you really can't control yourself.
And red wines and stuff like this.
Was your Italian? I mean, talk to us about Italian
wine. We all love a cab and all that.
How do you do to not let it in the house or what?
How do you do it? And your wife, how does she do
it? You guys keep peace in the house
or is she psycho? Come on, James, you're too
strict. Or do you just is it something

(01:27:04):
you don't crave? Because I feel like this can be
very helpful because I feel likea lot of people are drawn to
those items. And it, I think you're a good,
great role model, you know, in the sense of how you manage to
limit it or remove it completely, right?
I mean, is it removed from your diet for the most part, special
occasions? Or when do you say yes to a
glass of wine? Possibly.

(01:27:27):
Yeah, it's essentially removed from my diet.
But I think if you're someone who, it's a slip alcohol
slippery slope for a lot of people, right, You start
drinking one glass and it becomes 2 and it's very, it's
very habit forming, just like coffee.
So all of a sudden now you're someone who's drinking 3 or 4
and you don't even realize it. You can you can get there very
quickly. So for some people like myself,
I like to just not even have it on occasions.

(01:27:48):
Or if I'm over with neighbors, maybe I'll have a glass or two,
but in general I just keep it out of the house.
I love that. I mean, this is motivation.
I mean, because I know you walk your talk too, because not that
you do this, you're not a fitness trainer running around
showing off your, your flat stomach, but you're in very good
shape. I mean, I think I see sometimes
you do some of your work in the sauna, which I have a sauna too.

(01:28:09):
I love saunas. And you know, sometimes we, we
get to see your, your flat stomach and you really do walk
the talk because, you know, theyalways say never trust a skinny
chef, right, Because chefs should enjoy their food.
But I would say nutritionist, not that you're necessarily a
nutritionist, but you definitelyhave nutritional strategies.
You walk your talk. I feel like you have energy, you

(01:28:30):
are healthy, you are fit, you embody this.
And you know, a lot of doctors and people that write books on
nutrition don't necessarily looklike the picture of health.
I'm like, these people look likethey're unhealthy.
You know what I mean? For anyone out there that thinks
what we've talked about is, is abig jump for them, what would be

(01:28:51):
your first step for anyone listening, because I do feel
like your salt fix made it simple.
I feel like they should get thatbook.
The mineral fix should be added.There's the immunity fix as
well, which is an incredible book you wrote.
You've written a book with Doctor Jason Fung to remind us
the title of that one. That was the longevity solution.
I feel like what would, how would you end our conversation

(01:29:12):
to guide people? And obviously we want to make
sure they have your, your website and all that as well.
But what, how would you give it?Like if you're there, there was
a couple resources, maybe two orthree.
Obviously the new book is, is the encyclopedia.
I think this has everything. The salt fix is my personal
pick. You know, I would say that one
as well. Those would be two.
If there's a third book out of all the books you've written,

(01:29:33):
what would be a book and why would they need to get it?
Because I think people should get as many of your books as
possible because they're also valuable and there's so much
research. I think that lights up people's
minds and makes them feel like this isn't just something you're
saying. It's something backed by the
studies, the citations. I mean, with this new book,

(01:29:53):
thousands of citations, the saltfix, 500 citations.
I mean, this is this is your passion.
You know what would be 1/3 resource and would you, would
you go salt fix, mineral fix andthen we'll be the third or how
would you organize the top threeoptions from your perspective?
I guess it depends on the person's goal.
If someone wants to go on a ketogenic diet, I would get

(01:30:13):
super fuel because we really broke out.
What are the healthiest fats on a ketogenic diet myself?
Mercola wrote. That one, If you're someone who
wants to just eat a more balanced diet and you want some
plants, some animals food, then the longevity solution is
probably for you. If you're someone who wants to
obviously get your minerals fixed, mineral fixed, right?

(01:30:34):
Someone who's struggling with sugar addiction, salt fix.
So it really depends what your goal is.
I love it. No.
And that's a great way to look at it because I feel like all
your books have a different purpose and they have a
different solution to help and and I feel like everyone
listening has the sugar addiction, which is tough, but
at the same time I'm hearing something.
Pardon me, guys, part of me guys, that was an iPhone.

(01:30:55):
I don't know how that came through there, but we are live
here. But in ending with this share
with everyone where they can geta hold of you how you are in
social your website because I want them to stay in touch and
I'm just so honored. That you have this other.
Book that caught me off guard when I saw your Instagram was
like, he's got a new book and hereached out to you and here you
are. So I'm thrilled.
And being that it's Sunday, you know, we release these

(01:31:17):
interviews on Sundays. I feel like this is the perfect
way to start the week or to to start the week on a Sunday with
this information. But give us your your
information so people can followyou on social.
They can go to your website and add themselves to your
newsletter. All that please.
Sure. Yeah, so we're Speaking of
Instagram and Twitter. It's at Doctor James Dinek,

(01:31:37):
which is DINIC, and the website is Doctor James dinek.com.
I love it. It's simple and then you wrote
this book. As you do some of your books
with your co-author. Mention his name briefly and I
know he's in. Is he right outside of Russia or
where? What part of?
The world is he. His name is Sima Land.
He's from Estonia. Yes, and he is a key part of

(01:31:57):
this book, helped you with a lotof the research.
So his take on this is I, I would, I would assume similar,
but he's got the the, the, the perspective more from what area
would you say that he adds this or is it something you guys just
always do together? Yeah.
The last two we've done togetherand he's more of like a bio
hacker. So he he brings a nice
perspective and from that aspect.

(01:32:18):
And if people wanted to follow his social, we haven't had him
on the show, but I think if you can put us in touch, I think
it'd be fun to have him on and eventually maybe the two of you
guys. But what's his info in case he's
out there? And is he on your social and
he's on your website and all that?
Yeah, he's on. He's on Instagram, Seamond.
At Seamond. Yeah.
All right. Well, I can't thank you enough.
This is, as always, a provocative conversation.

(01:32:39):
I know a lot of people are like,Oh my gosh, like this is because
it's not what we hear. You know, we're told certain
things that are old dogma from 4050 years ago about how to be
healthy, you know, and I feel like you brought us up to speed
and I feel like you're literally1020 years in the future here.
And I feel like with your support, with the support of all
the people that I talked to, I feel like we can help change

(01:33:01):
everyone listening to this for amore enlightened kind of
perspective on what human nutrition and health is required
these days. And minerals.
I mean, I feel like it's the onething no one talks enough about.
I feel like people think it's all just unnecessary.
And I think this conversation was invaluable.
So thank you, Doctor James, for always being a true compass for

(01:33:22):
us, pointing us in the right direction and providing the
resources that I think no one can deny the the citations.
No one can deny the science. You do such an incredible job.
So as always, my hat's off to you and to your whole team.
So thank you so much for your for your time and for writing
this darn book because it is thebest one out there.
I can't wait to get my physical copy because I have it on my
iPad. But thank you so much.

(01:33:44):
It's, it sits on there with my salt fix in all your books.
So I'm, I'm thrilled. So thank you again.
Thanks, Jorge. You bet.
All right. Thanks so much.
Peace and purpose, everyone. Thank you so much.
How it's been 2021 for you. I know it's been an unusual
start. It really.
Yeah, it's interesting though, because, you know, I've been
enjoying staying at home myself.I get to spend more time with

(01:34:04):
the kids and the wife. So yeah, it's going well so far.
Usually I'm in New York the whole month of January doing all
the, the morning shows, but withCOVID, we're all live streaming
or it's rare some shows are doing that.
But I feel like so many people around this time of the year
when it hits the middle of January or towards the end of
January, they, they kind of likehave given up.
I, I think the, the surveys havesaid that usually 80% the people

(01:34:28):
that made New Year's resolutionsat the start of the year, by the
middle of January have given up.You know, So I hope we can
inspire them, ignite them, get them excited with some
incredible insight, share with them a little bit of the salt
fix because I feel like for me it is the key to turning off
hunger. It is how Sandy lost £2 a day on
the plan. And you know, it's a simple ad

(01:34:48):
in the people can do, I mean, sodium, we all, we all have it.
And tell them how, how that bookcame about real quick.
Doctor James is I think this book is brilliant and I don't
want to forget it, please. Sure.
So I mean, we've all sort of been taught that salt is this
like toxic white poison. And the reason why I wrote the
book is to really, you know, shed light that this is an
essential mineral. And when it comes to how it

(01:35:11):
helps regulate hunger, is the fact that because it's an
essential mineral, there had to be some type of signal in it,
really in the body, that if we were deficient, it would tell us
to go seek out more of this substance and consume it if we
were deficient. And, you know, in the book, I
sort of show how animals do this.
And we would follow animals to salt trails and we would consume

(01:35:34):
and replenish the salt that we lost through sweat.
And the signal that drives us todo that is the reward center in
the brain. And so if you are deficient in
salt, that reward center is hyperactivated.
And so you can get more sugar cravings, more food cravings if
you don't have enough salt because of that reward system
being hyperactivated. So if you want to suppress that

(01:35:55):
reward center and not get such ahigh off of sugar and all these
other types of, you know, highlyprocessed foods, an adequate
amount of salt intake is your best solution to do that.
Yep, I, I think it's so it's such a simple thing and I, and I
feel like anyone watching or listening to us that thinks,
what the heck, you can turn off hunger, You know, I mean the

(01:36:16):
whole, the, my whole mission nowhas become, you know, I've
transitioned, I feel like from with COVID here, you know, into
someone who's become an advocatefor what I call 0 hunger water,
which is basically water 32 oz. I'm sipping it as we as we speak
here. This is my second one this
morning and it's early this morning.
But for me, you know, I, I do anextended fast fast on occasion

(01:36:37):
where I sometimes fast up to three days.
And I don't do it for weight loss because I'm at my goal
weight. I do it for the the response to
the immune system, stem cells, etcetera.
So I thought when we would talk about that in a minute, but
remind everyone, because I feel like what you said may we may
have to repeat it because if anyone's listening, they're
thinking, did he just say we need salt and in and in
paleolithic times or in ancient times?

(01:36:59):
I think what you said is, is notto give him a history lesson,
but to share a little more on that about how ancient man and
we're talking how many, I mean, this is going back thousands and
thousands of years, right? Where we would follow.
Can you explain that a little bit about how ancient man knew
how to follow the path of salt sort of right?
And how I think we talked about this in our in our first

(01:37:19):
interview about how even the ancient Romans paid their
soldiers and gave them a salary,right?
And in, in the Latin terms, salary.
I, I think there's a connection to salt, right?
And we're worth your weight in salt.
Is that is that where that comesin?
And give us a tiny little history lesson was I feel like
you're the man that that could give us some light on that,
please, Because I think people are like, this is crazy.

(01:37:41):
This is new, this is weird. And it's not it's it's actually,
I mean, is it ancient? It is right?
Oh my gosh. I mean, well, our, our, our
increased intake in salt actually goes back maybe four or
five million years when it started cooling off a little bit
in Africa. And you sort of had the instead
of a lot of rain forest, more patches and savannahs.

(01:38:01):
And that's where essentially ourancient, ancient ancestors kind
of transitioned from, right, eating more vegetation plants to
more animal foods. So and when we consume the
entire animal, you are getting all the salty blood and
interstitial fluid and you don'tget that nowadays.
So if you if you brought the processed foods and you start

(01:38:22):
eating Whole Foods, that is now deficient in the salt that we
used to get through all those salty fluids, so.
Say that again, but take us back2 seconds.
So when and I agree with you 100% because I I do believe a
more high fat, high protein diet, which is more animal based
is what our ancestors did. But back then, obviously they
would hunt, right, and eat theseanimals in a way where you said

(01:38:45):
that these fluids, obviously theblood, right, would be something
that was very high in sodium, correct?
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you just look at,
like, a lion kill, right, their whole face is covered in blood.
And that blood contains a lot ofsalt, about 1 1/2 teaspoons per
liter. Wow.
So, you know, we used to get that.

(01:39:06):
And so if you start just eating plain muscle meat without salty
fluids, you have to add the saltback somewhere.
OK, well, good buzz. I I love a rib eye and I always
add salt to it. Believe me, it tastes good.
You know, and I think we all know this, but what happened?
I mean, not to jump all the way to I think we talked last time
about the invention of the refrigerator, right?
And how before that we would preserve meat with salt.

(01:39:28):
So that was a way to add it backin.
But tell us what happened because somehow through the
Roman times we were, I mean, if we go back from millions of
years to like three, 2000 years ago with the Romans, take, give
us a jump there because in that those were still early days,
early man. I mean, but we're a little more
civilized. We have this beautiful empire in
Italy and Rome and all that. So tell us all about what how

(01:39:51):
people knew then salt was powerful.
And then take us to modern times, maybe up up until right
before, I think you told me it was 1930 with the refrigeration,
with the invention of that and the refrigerator that everything
changed. But take us to Rome a little bit
at that. Ancient Rome and the word
salary. Tell everyone what it means and
why it was so important for for them.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, essentially Rome

(01:40:13):
would not have functioned and been the empire that it was
without salt, because that's howthey would keep their armies
going. On the average, Roman consumed
about 25 grams of salt, whereas we.
Own per day? Per day.
Yeah, 25 and you? Know people are thinking you're
we're going to kill people with this, but this is how they won
wars. How does that I mean, we'll

(01:40:36):
continue please, I don't want toI don't want to guide this, but
take us back again to Rome. So 25 grams a day for these
people that were active saying, you know, and conquering the,
the, the, the, the empire, shallwe say?
Right. Yeah.
And, and essentially, you know, nowadays we only consume about 8
grams of of salt. So they were consuming about
three times the amount of salt that we ingest today.

(01:41:00):
Many other Scandinavian countries even, you know, even
up through the 1516, hundreds that were preserving most of
their foods with salts were consuming upwards of sometimes
60 to 100 grams of salt per day because everything had to be
very tightly packed in quite a bit of salt to preserve it.
And then as you had mentioned, with the invention of the
refrigerator in the 1930s, thereor thereabouts, the there was

(01:41:24):
less salt needed to preserve thefood.
And so this is where we sort of got now where we consume about
that 8 grams of salt or about 3 1/2 grams of sodium per day.
So with the invention of the refrigerator, in essence, it
took away the need for the salt.What happened between that then
and the early 30s right to today, where it's been vilified,

(01:41:46):
where salt has become this? I mean, and I guess people
thought, oh, it was only used for preservation.
Now we don't need it. But I think, I mean, we talked
about this in in that episode, Ithink 98 that we talked about
where, you know, there was a campaign of sorts with the sugar
industry. I mean, it, it really, I feel
this needs to be a movie. If COVID continues, you and I

(01:42:08):
need to work on a film, a documentary, because I feel like
they're they're tell us the, the, the story of what from your
perspective. And I know it's your opinion,
but it's based a bit on on history and, and what is what's,
it's just fact there. It's factual.
This isn't something that you made-up, but something happened
in our culture and our government with recommending
salt versus sugar. And you know, there's no

(01:42:30):
regulated daily allowance for sugar.
There is for other trace and minerals.
And I feel like salt has been made this thing where there's a
number that is so low, right. But tell us a little bit of
that, of how this happened because somehow in the 1920s, we
weren't doing this. We weren't afraid of salt.
I mean, we had to eat it. What was a part of, I mean, what

(01:42:50):
was that life like in the 1920s,sickest of the 20s before the
invention or the early, you know, early like 1910 or
something, You know, the Titanic.
I always think of that time period, you know, Victorian time
period where there wasn't refrigeration, right?
There wasn't at all. Right.
Salt was cherished for for preserving foods.
Even in early wars, most soldiers consumed around 18

(01:43:11):
grams of salt per day. So just over twice the amount of
salt that we consume. It was very well known, at least
up through World War 2, that that soldiers should have a a
ration that gave them 18 grams of salt per day.
So. So, and that wasn't that.
What was there? What was their reasoning?

(01:43:31):
Do you do you know a little? Bit of the functioning
cognition, you know, performancein the field how they felt
replacing, you know the salt that would be lost through
sweat. So that was their reasoning.
They they just, you know, they had done their calculations and
that wasn't. Were they aware of the ability
to because I would think if you're, you know, if you have a

(01:43:53):
Roman Empire and, and, and thesesoldiers or if you have a 1920s
soldier as well, or anything that's going on in the world
where you want to be victorious and you have a lot of work to
do, a lot of physical work to do.
This isn't sitting at a desk if you're fighting a war.
But were they aware that obvious?
Because I know for me and I knowwhat we just to jump to women's
world here with the January issue that will be out in news

(01:44:16):
stands, I believe the 28th of January for anyone that wants to
read this, won't be out till then.
But you know this gal Sandy, youknow, and I love her to death.
She's a 50 year old grandmother.She got off her cholesterol
medication and she literally drinks this, this recommendation
that I've given her, you know, 32 ounces of water with a half a

(01:44:36):
teaspoon of salt. We had a little pinch of
magnesium, potassium sometimes and little lemon or a stevia or
monk fruit or something without sugar.
But she drinks that and she literally forgets to eat all day
and has incredible energy. No migraines.
She's off for cholesterol meds. She is at her high school weight
and she's almost 60. You know, she feels phenomenal.

(01:44:58):
I would think that would be verybeneficial for, for, for, for
people that had wars to fight aswell, you know, to have all
those things and she eats one meal a day.
She doesn't do it intentionally.She's not trying to fast, but
she's not hungry. And I would think that would be
beneficial with, with wars and all that to also have this
energy. And, and I know the military
does feed folks in pie 3 square meals a day, but I, I, I'm sure

(01:45:20):
during the middle of a war, you'd be happy to get one good
meal. Were they aware were people,
let's start to move into the direction of hunger control just
for a minute, because we're going to end up with, with
autophagy and fasting. How does the sodium, if you
could just one more time if you don't mind to dumb it down for
everyone listening, How does it turn off the hunger and the
cravings for sugar, carbs and salty snack foods?

(01:45:42):
Because I think that's what causes so many of us to be
overweight. At least it did for me when I
was younger. I was overweight because I was
addicted to potato chips, nachos, milkshakes from
McDonald's, French fries. I mean the all goes on and on.
It was never a steak and and eggs I was addicted to was
always carbs, sugar, pop, tarts.I remember Captain Crunch

(01:46:03):
cereal. I love Captain Crunch, right?
Those are the things I was addicted to.
And I would think, you know, if we want to regulate our hunger,
share for a moment did I don't know if the people in the 20s or
the Romans knew this, but obviously, I mean, we look at
movies from, you know, like that.
I remember that movie was at the100 or the 300 was that movie
with all the Spartans, the 300. I mean, these guys looked

(01:46:25):
amazing, right? They had great bodies.
You know, they're everyone was in phenomenal shape and they
weren't eating all day and nightand they were they they had salt
in their diet. So how did that regulate or how
does that help us be effective and not and not be hungry?
And do you know if they they'd use the salt partly for that or
was it just for the energy? And they probably didn't feel

(01:46:46):
hungry either. I would think they ate often,
but not every three hours, you know, where they were dependent
on because I imagine if you're fighting a war to pack that much
food would be it's a lot of it's, it's, it's enough to have
18, you said 18 grams of salt back in the, in the 20s, right?
I mean that you can pack it's small, right?
But to have three snacks or 4 snacks, a breakfast, a lunch, a

(01:47:07):
dinner. I mean, you're carrying a whole
picnic basket, you know, every day.
I mean, you, you would, you would run out of, and I don't
know if you could win a war if you're always eating right.
And I'm not hungry. I mean, I, I'm, I feel like I'm
on a revolution of sorts. And I know you are to help
people's health and I don't overeat.
But did you think they were aware of that, Doctor James, or
is that just a side effect, justnot being hungry?

(01:47:28):
Or was that an intentional thingto, to, to, to maximize the
potential of, of winning a war or, and not overeating, you
know? Yeah.
I mean, I don't know if they were consciously aware of that
salt might curb their hunger. I think they they primarily knew
that this substance is going to help preserve their food, it's
going to improve their performance on the battlefield

(01:47:48):
and that and that it was important for hydration.
I think they did understand those things.
And of course, for infections, right?
Tell us, what do you mean? Well, you they would, they used
to rinse their mouths. That was the natural first
antiseptic antibacterial mouthwash was, was a saline
solution. So for gingivitis or any type
of, you know, mouth infection, salt rinses were very common

(01:48:10):
back in the day. And of course, packing wounds
right with salt was but I think to your point, you know how to
how to salt curb hunger. And when you don't, there's
there's numerous things and I'llgo through each one.
The the reason is when you don'tget get enough salt, it again
activates that reward system in the brain.

(01:48:31):
So you're going to get a greateractivation in dopamine from
hyper palatable foods, making them more addictive.
So that's we're. Talking sugar, carbs and salty
snack foods, It's not the salt, it's the corn and the chips,
right? In fact, it's the lack of salt
that actually makes those substances even more addictive.
And on the other side of that too is when you're not getting

(01:48:52):
enough salt, your body increasesthe fat storing hormone insulin,
because that hormone also causesthe kidneys to retain more salt.
So if you're constantly on a lowsalt diet, you will
automatically have higher insulin levels and for every
calorie you consume you are going to store a more fat.
Wow, that that no one says this.You're the only person I bet

(01:49:15):
yet, although there are others there, there are a few of us out
there. But I feel like, why is this
message missing in the culture? Why is your book so
revolutionary? Because I feel like something
happened. Can you tell us that thought?
What happened after the 30s and 40s where the public were?
I mean it, it feels like it was vilified.
Salt was the opposite of what you just said, right?

(01:49:37):
Right, because, you know, an industry formed that noticed
that they can make money off of a different white crystal, that
being sugar. And so in the early 30s, you
started seeing, you know, these candy shops, right?
And you used to be able to get fountain sodas in the in
pharmacies. And so sugar and the sugar
industry started growing from there.
Well, you know, all of a sudden the population health started

(01:49:58):
declining as well. And so they had to have a
scapegoat. They had to blame it on the
other white crystal salt. And so the food industry in the
sugar industry have definitely had many scientists on their
payroll, and it was always to shift the blame away from sugar
onto fat or salt. And so this.
Is this is historical? This isn't something you're
guessing they were on payroll, right?

(01:50:19):
A 100% yeah, they they had scientists on payroll, paid them
to write even. The sugar industry, the sugar
industry right as early as what year?
When did this try? I mean, tell us a tiny bit more,
whatever, you know, because I think people's mouths that
they're like, what are you guys drinking?
Are you guys drunk? This is not possible.
Why would they do that to salt, right?

(01:50:41):
But this is historical, right? Yeah, I think it, you know, it
first started in the 50s and really started growing in the
70s because when you had the release of the first dietary
goals in 1977, that ended up turning into the 1980 dietary
guidelines. And I, I kind of go through the
historical recommendations from the 1st 1980s dietary Guideline

(01:51:03):
to all the way up to today and. That's in the salt fix, right?
Yeah. So at first it wasn't, it wasn't
necessarily like, you know, saltis so bad it which is they just
said consume salt in moderation and then that change to eat a
low, as as low as possible salt diet.
And so it's even, it's interesting even from the 1980s
through through up through 2015 how it sort of became more and

(01:51:25):
more and more restrictive. Wow.
And obviously they had more money and more attorneys, more
people on salary, shall we say, right, To kind of push an agenda
that I mean, is there any, I mean, I, I just want to be a
little fair and try to be non bias, but was there any truth to
it or is there any truth to it? Or was it really manufactured?

(01:51:47):
I mean, because it feels like they couldn't have completely
made this up from nowhere. I mean, I feel like wow, I want
to cry right now. It's depressing.
Well, I think what they did was there are people who are salt
sensitive, but they never took the time to figure out why those
people were salt sensitive and inappropriate, inappropriately

(01:52:09):
extrapolated that small subgroupof people who have high blood
pressure and that are salt sensitive and did a blanket
statement to the general population that everyone should
be on a low salt diet. So there were two faults that
happened. They inappropriately
extrapolated a small group that was salt sensitive to everybody
and. When you say salt sensitive,

(01:52:30):
because I know we talked about this in our last interview about
the pairing, maybe you can mention it whenever it's
appropriate of salt with a high insulin response, which comes
from sugar, carbs and salty snack foods, doesn't come from
fats and proteins, a little bit from protein, but not nothing
like carbohydrate. And when you pair salt with
carbohydrates, what I feel like this special group of people eat

(01:52:52):
a lot of sugar and carbs and then they tested them and said,
oh, well, then salt's going to give you, what was it high blood
pressure? Was that the big issue that they
were so concerned about? Well, I mean, they could never
even prove that it caused hypertension or a chronically
elevated level of high blood pressure.
It was just that their blood pressure would spike about 5% or
greater when going from a low toa normal salt intake.

(01:53:14):
But your blood, your kidneys canflush out the salt fairly
quickly, so the blood pressure would go pretty much right back
down. Hey, it's Jorge and I just
wanted to interrupt the show just for a moment to invite you
to head on over and sign up for my 0 Hunger e-mail that'll give
you each day a simple what to eat to get radical control over

(01:53:38):
your sugar, carb, and salty snack food cravings.
And if this is something you want to conquer and make a
lifestyle, the newsletter is important.
It will really give you tools every day to keep building that
momentum to create a lifestyle where you're in control of sugar
and carbs. So if that sounds good, check it
out. Simply go to 0 Hunger for
plan.com. I'll spell it for you.
It's with AZZERO 0hungerplan.comand it's all free.

(01:54:03):
I'll see you there. Let's get back to the show.
But as you said, the key to thisgroup that is quote UN quote
salt sensitive was the refined carbs and sugars causing them to
elevate and causing them to overretain salt.
And if you just drop the sugar and then refined carbs, you've

(01:54:23):
dropped the insulin and you fix the salt sensitive high blood
pressure. So say that for everyone
listening if you're concerned about high blood pressure, which
I think in today's 2021, it's hard to believe it's 2021 world,
but it is. I mean, if people think of salt,
their number one issue at least that I hear on social media and
emails I get is I don't want to get a heart attack.
I don't want to have high blood pressure.

(01:54:44):
Is that still that's kind of thefear.
That's the one story, the myth that it seems to be the
narrative that that you might aswell put the X and the skull on
salt because people are scared of dying from it.
You know? It's the opposite of your cover
here, where it's medicine, you know?
Absolutely. Is that the is that the
narrative that they're scared ofa high blood pressure?

(01:55:05):
Yeah. Oh.
Without question, the most comments I get is well what if I
have high blood pressure? Well the well then the key is is
to drop the refined carbs and sugar or start exercising more.
And that requires and necessitates more salt.
And salt's going to let you allow you to exercise more, and
it's going to allow you to eat those Whole Foods that are more

(01:55:26):
bitter but that bring the potassium in the magnesium.
So salt is the gateway to eatinghealthy and exercising more.
Wow, I feel like this is, I lovetalking to you because I feel
like I always, even though I knew this already, I feel like,
wow, the way you say it is so it's profound.
I mean, this is profound information.
I think anyone listening to thisright now is saying, wow, you

(01:55:49):
know, and I feel like with your new book, the immunity fix, you
know, there's a chapter in therethat I'm obsessed with chapter
10 for anyone that gets the book, it's it's a must read.
It only came out a couple monthsago, right?
So it's fairly new. And obviously tell everyone
about the immunity fix because you worked on this during COVID,
right? This is you, you rushed this,
you literally did this. And I mean, I know the salt fix

(01:56:09):
you shared with us 500 citationstook you three years to do this
book. How did you do that book so
quick? And, and I mean, that's got a
lot of expectations as well, correct?
Yeah, correct. Yeah, we were the first, myself
and another co-author to actually publish an academic pay
review paper on nutraceutical essentially supplement
strategies against RNA viruses, which the virus is an RNA virus.

(01:56:33):
Is this public where we could share with people?
Yeah. Yeah, this is this is a a
published academic paper and it.Was, if you don't mind, share me
the link and we'll share it in the show notes because this
would be fabulous. So it started with that.
And when was this this last yearjust.
February. That was in February.
That so not even a year ago, about a year ago.
Right, essentially, right When COVID was exploding, we, we
public this academic paper was press released by Elsevier,

(01:56:55):
which is, you know, an academic,you know, publishing, you know,
group and we started also publishing on
hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, right?
Do these medications actually help against COVID and that And
then I said, well, you know what, most people don't read
academic papers, so I might as well make my research into a

(01:57:16):
book. And then it ended up turning
into a 2500 reference. Immunity fixed 2500.
Yes, yeah. I love that you're so not just
well researched, but passionate because to find those kind of
references, I mean, I mean, I know it took you three years for
the salt fix. How did you?
You must have just focused 14 hour days.
You must have been a laser beam,correct?

(01:57:37):
Yeah. I mean essentially right
through, I would say as soon as it started happening in late
December in China, The research for me just, you know, didn't
stop until, you know, around Mayor so.
And and the book is written withthe co-author, this handsome guy
here. Tell us who your co-authors is.
There you are, of course, and and we're going to dive into
this now. But you you had a little help

(01:57:57):
that the author of the MetabolicAutophagy pronounced his name
for us right. Yeah, and he helped with some of
the more the biohacking. So I mean, I had actually been
doing research on sauna therapies sort of heat shocking
yourself. I was looking at animal studies
where they would heat shock these animals before giving them
lethal influenza and a dramatically lowered mortality,

(01:58:20):
viral replication, lung pathology.
And that comes down to heat shock proteins having these
antiviral on the facts. So sure enough, I did buy a
sauna during this COVID so. I have a sauna as well.
I love saunas. I do it almost every night.
You recommend that as an immunity, the biohack, right?
Next. Yeah, absolutely.
And is that how you connected with and?
Say his name one more time for everyone watching.

(01:58:42):
Yeah, Seamland is. Seamland and he is in Europe,
correct this gentleman. And so we, we sort of go
through, you know, the nutrient depletions in, in the immunity
fix that increase the risk of having poor COVID outcomes or,
or higher mortality. But then we also want to
lifestyle strategies, biohackingstrategies, cold therapy, hot

(01:59:03):
therapy, things like that. Fantastic.
So his specialty are the bio hacks.
So I mean, I feel like you'll have to connect us.
We'll have to talk to him because I feel like this is such
an important topic. And as COVID is still out there
and, you know, I just listen to NPR News this morning bright and
early. I mean, it's still an issue.
I know the vaccine is giving us a new light.
I hope, right, you would agree there's some light there, you

(01:59:25):
know, which is is well needed. But there's so many things we
can do to take a control, be proactive.
And I think if it's not COVID-19, it could be the flu.
It could be just immunity in general.
For me, you know, one of my favorite chapters, like I
mentioned is the one on intermittent fasting because as
much as I used to intentionally force myself tonight and it was
hard, you know, it was really hard once for me.

(01:59:48):
You know, out of COVID came thisemphasis on the podcast about
hunger control. Because I think after our
interview and speaking to a few other people from Paul Saladino,
Dr. Saladino to Mark Sisson to Jason Fung, which is a good
friend and co-author of one of your books as well.
What? What book did you and Doctor
Fung do? That was the longevity solution.

(02:00:09):
So that is what I, that is why Ido extended fast for longevity,
for increased improvement in stem cells and immunity
function. And I think one of the tricks
and, and, and just connecting itback to Women's world because I
know a lot of people listening are fans of Women's World
magazine because it's out and it's the number one publication
on grocery stands, you know, in the country, it's number one.

(02:00:30):
I mean, there's no even People magazine doesn't get this kind
of coverage because it's everywhere in the grocery stores
and in today's world, not everyone reads magazines.
But on that cover, we know that Sandy was drinking this water
and she literally talks about, she doesn't mention the word
fasting in the article, but she's not someone who does
biohacking. She's a 58 year old woman.
And I think our average listeners in their mid in

(02:00:52):
midlife to say the least, we don't have a lot of 20 or 30
year olds. But if they are listening, I
think, and if they're overweightor feel like their immune is
weak, I feel like this idea of forgetting to eat, otherwise
known as fasting, you know, if it's effortless is scary for
people. And I think in chapter 10, you
really share some of the, the science that I think can bolster

(02:01:14):
our, our motivation to know that, you know, it's almost like
we're scared of salt. What we're scared of fasting.
You know, it's, we've been told,Oh, no, no, no, you know, you
can't do that. You can, you go, you'll pass
out. You have to.
I mean, I know in my study of, of food and all that, Harvey
Kellogg around the same time period that, you know, we talked
about the Victorian time period,he created the, the Kellogg

(02:01:35):
cornflake, you know, at a sanitarium, I think it was in
Michigan or something like that,and created this to help people
be healthy. But he created a whole industry
that broke the fast and he created the word breakfast.
I think it was first quoted in, in a Good Housekeeping and in
the early in like 1910 or something like that.
And, and, and then people he, you have to eat breakfast.

(02:01:57):
You know, we all been told breakfast is the most important
meal of the day, right, Doctor James?
And I feel like, you know, for my clients, a lot of them will
just drink this, you know, maybehave a little coffee, maybe with
a little butter or something like that as a bio hack.
But you know, a lot of times my clients will forget to eat till
dinner time and they'll eat one meal a day.
We all heard of that acronym OMAD, you know, And tell us why

(02:02:19):
that isn't something because I feel like it's I'm just thinking
this out loud with you. But as much as sugar and carbs
and and salty snack foods are something we want to avoid, we
want to embrace salt. Why would a strategy like
fasting be something that can improve our immunity?
If we could start with that? I would love that because I feel
like that is one of the issues that a lot of my clients face

(02:02:41):
when they consider not eating. And they're like, but is it safe
if I drink your stuff, if I drink salt and I'm not hungry
now? And as you've explained so
beautifully, how that turns off the hunger mechanism.
Is that safe though? And you know, they're going to
say, well, you know, I'm going to pass out, You know, I'm
literally going to die. You know, if I don't, if I don't
eat immediately in every three hours.
Why is the opposite possibly true?

(02:03:03):
And, and in chapter 10, you callit, you know, everything from I
think you mentioned what is the,the topic here, how fasting
effects immunity. You mentioned the word that I, I
love. I'll just share with everyone
here a toffajee. So maybe could you share a
little bit of what of this? We'll start with this visit.
It really connects to women's world because that's that's how
you lose 2 lbs a day, in my opinion.

(02:03:24):
You fast, which is not, you know, people like, well, I get
why you lose 2 up to up to 2 lbs.
It's not everyone will lose 2 lbs.
It's up to 2 lbs. But you sure could if you have a
lot of weight. And I feel like people are going
to say it's not safe. This is very provocative.
It's you people are dumb. This is not safe.
It's not what the government tells us to do.
Everyone knows we need to eat breakfast, but take us down this

(02:03:44):
path. And I'm not saying it's another
conspiracy, but maybe you know, about us being we're, we're more
capable than just, you know, being so dependent on eating
every three hours. But talk to us about chapter 10,
please. Doctor James, I I want to let
you take over. Please, I.
Mean the average American consumes price six to seven
meals per day. And so that's constantly keeping

(02:04:05):
insulin levels elevated. So doing an intermittent fast,
which is sort of like your novice fast right where you're
it's more like time restricted eating.
You're consuming 6 meals a day, you're consuming maybe 2 meals
per day. So whether that's skipping
breakfast for most people, it's so easy to just skip breakfast
and then they consume lunch and dinner.

(02:04:27):
And and when you get into the more OMAD or the one meal a day
fast, you start getting more into the deeper fat burning at
the 18 to 20 hour mark. And that's what I love because
that's where you can really see a drop in weight.
As we say on the cover, they're £2 a day.
So that does happen with the andwould you call that an extended
fast if you're doing OMAD sort of?

(02:04:49):
It's right on the cusp, right? Because it's a 23 hour fast.
I know Doctor Fung always says, you know, he, he, he likes the
longer ones and I've done three day fast and I, I do them on a
regular. Sometimes I, I try to do them at
the start of the week. And I can tell you I feel out of
control, healthy. I do CrossFit, I work out, I, I
weigh almost 200 lbs of lean muscle and it's because I'm

(02:05:11):
eating more protein. I think, you know, and I have, I
have this energy. I feel like a Roman Spartan type
of, you know, type of guy here. And I'm trying to get, I'm
turning 50 in March and I, I went for my age to look my best.
And I feel like OMAD has done that.
But, but doing even if OMAD is the start of an extended fast, a
three day fast. And you know, Doctor Fung talks

(02:05:33):
about that at times and he even talks about four day fast.
And he always seems to imply that, you know, if you've got
that fat on your belly, on your sides, and if you're a heavy
person, I mean, he says you can go weeks without eating, you
know, and people like, Oh my God, Jason Fung is mad.
And you work with Doctor Funk. So I know his work is valid.
So so yeah. So I need a zip it here.

(02:05:54):
I want I want you to talk because I feel like this is such
an important topic. Fasting in general, you know,
from intermittent fasting, whichis what, maybe 2 meals a day.
I do the one meal a day. Some of my clients will do the
one meal and then on occasion dotwo to three day fast.
You know, just to and and not for weight loss necessarily
because maybe jump back in whereyou were saying what happens

(02:06:15):
when you go longer than when youdo?
Oh, Matt or beyond? Because things happen to the
body when you don't eat beyond 24 hours, say 2 days or three
day fast, right, Doctor James? Right.
So if you want to tap into what's called autophagy where
your where your body essentiallybreaks down damaged proteins and
for new proteins and increases the production of stem cells,

(02:06:38):
that really starts to happen at two to three day fast.
So in the immunity fix, we discussed that immune recess
would would require probably twoto three days fast, but you
shouldn't really do it more thanevery two to three months
because if you start doing prolonged fast more frequently
than that, you will start breaking down protein and

(02:06:58):
muscle. So there's this balance, right?
I mean if you're a lean muscularactive person, you don't.
You shouldn't be doing extended fast really to reset your immune
system. With that intention, that's fine
with the immune system. And did you mention stem cells?
Talk briefly about that because I know that's something that's
kind of like new tech or not newtechnology, but new science.

(02:07:21):
And people know that the stem cells can create miracles in the
body. You know, some people spend an
an extreme amount of money to get stem cells in their body.
And so when we do say up to a three, would you say 3 day fast
is where the magic is? Two to three days, yes.
Two to three, what happens briefly?
Give us a little history on thator from your perspective.
I know Jason Fung is, is the expert on fasting, but I feel

(02:07:43):
like you're very knowledgeable on this.
You know, the chapter is very detailed, but what happens
beyond weight loss? Because I know that's the start
of it. We want to drop weight and be
and be aggressive with it and see some results, but the
results are beyond that, correct?
Absolutely. So essentially, I mean, in
regards to immunity, your stem cells are what form your immune

(02:08:04):
cells. They come from the bone marrow
and the bone marrow produce yourstem cells which then eventually
differentiate into your immune cells.
And so if you're constantly eating, you're in the state of
growth, whereas when you fast, you're in the state of repair.
And So what ends up happening isany damaged immune cells or
proteins in the body, when you switch over to a prolonged fast,

(02:08:26):
you go into a repair mode and you start breaking down damaged
immune cells and you start forming new healthy ones.
So it is truly like that immune reset.
Tell me this in the in the book with the the immunity fix, you
talk about a toffajee. I know a lot of people heard the
word. I talk about it is housekeeping,
but beyond the weight loss and and the immunity give a end on

(02:08:47):
that and then we can dive maybe just a few more minutes on the
book and some some topics. I don't know if it's sauna or
things that you really are something that you want to bring
to our attention because I, I think that you have a great
palette to paint from here. But with autophagy, what other
things that I think would motivate people to understand
that, that doing a fast of some sort, whether it's a 16 hour

(02:09:09):
one, a 24 hour one, or even an extended 1 is going to give
them, as you mentioned, the stemcells.
And, and I feel like for me, I'mturning 50 and I don't know why
I feel older now at 50. It does feel like I got 50 more
years, which is the halfway point, which is great.
I, I mean, I'm excited for the next 50 years, but is it stem
cells or what is it that you would say is the greatest

(02:09:30):
outside of weight loss, especially because we've, we've
nailed that I feel, but that that fasting can do for us
because I know Jason Fung would talk about this for days.
But I feel like from your perspective, it would be a
little more focus possible because you mentioned the
immunity and it really does withCOVID-19 transform our immunity.
Because I, I feel like people, Iknow we talked about the bone

(02:09:53):
concern, the calcium concern, but it extended fasting or even
a 24 hour fast or whatever we end up doing.
If it's 16 hours and you eat 2 meals a day or whatever people
are doing with that are listening.
I, I feel like so many people have been told, and I grew up in
a Latin Catholic family where ifyou don't eat, you know, you,
you, you weaken your immune system.

(02:10:13):
It's the opposite. Just maybe start there and then
give us a little, you know, takeus to the top of what is the,
you know, why the immune system works so more efficiently when
we do an intermittent fast, right?
Because I feel like it's not what we're used to hearing.
I think because nowadays we're hyper eating, we need to start
more fasting. Right, hyper eating.

(02:10:35):
I love that term. Is that something that is that
your term I love? I'm going to give you credit for
that. We'll have to make a hyper hyper
eating right? Eating.
Yeah, it will, essentially. And so.
To find that from your perspective, because I agree.
I mean, we're literally not eveneating every three hours.
It's like constantly, right? Yeah, when when we were growing
up, we would only eat three times a day, an hour or four,

(02:10:56):
eating 6 times a day. So that's what I meant by hyper
eating. It's just the frequencies gone
up twofold. And I think more, I think more
people with COVID, you know, they're bored at home and
they're popping M&M's and peanuts night and day, you know,
and so hyper eating. So go ahead, yeah.
Even our plate sizes have increased, but obviously yes,
but I think from from an immunity perspective, if you

(02:11:18):
consume just 100 grams of carbohydrates from sugars or
refined carb source that lowers the natural killer cells ability
to kill viruses by 5 hours. So it's, you know, they're
essentially their ability to kill goes down by 5 hours.
So say this one more time for anyone.
It's like, well, I missed that. What?
What? What?
What? What did you say?
One more time? Doctor James says this is

(02:11:39):
powerful. This is like, I mean, this is
the reason to do it in what you just said.
But please, one more time if youwould.
If you if you consume 100 grams of carbohydrates from either
sugar or refined carb source, that drops your immune system's
ability to kill viruses for fivehours.
That's incredible. And that's not a lot of, I mean
500 grams, I mean 500 grams, right?

(02:12:01):
One. No one.
Hundred 100 grams, that's the equivalent of is that.
I mean, give us something that people can relate to.
It's not much, right? Because Virus 2 Coca Cola's,
essentially. Right. 22 glasses of orange
juice, right? Is that like it's 29 grams?
I mean, it's almost the same amount of sugar in a glass of
fresh orange juice as there is in a Coca-Cola, right?

(02:12:22):
Bowl of cereal with milk, essentially.
Or, you know, your typical American.
Breakfast 100 grams of carbohydrates, 5 hour depression
in the immune system. Right.
Yes. No one.
No one talks about this. No one and then and then they do
this and they eat every three hours, you know, snacks and and
all their meals. I mean, wouldn't you say they
add the standard American diet, right?

(02:12:43):
Sad people are consuming 100 grams easily.
I don't want to say with every meal, but I do feel it's with
every meal, right? Hyper, not just hyper meals, but
hyper high high carb meals, right?
Absolutely. So I mean that the average
American is consuming 400 to 500grams of carbohydrates per day,

(02:13:03):
refined carbohydrates per day. So what does that do to the
immune system if 100 grams killsit for five hours?
Let's add that up. How many?
How many did you say on the average day?
6. So 6 times 6 * 5 hours, that's
you're literally 30 hours, your immune system's offline and I
don't even know how that how does that happen in a 24 hour

(02:13:24):
day, you literally have no immune system, right?
Right, right. Your immune system is
chronically suppressed when you're constantly eating
carbohydrates. Wow, I mean that's profound.
I mean, I feel like for the sateof for, for the for, for, for
drama, say one more time, because it's it's like, let's
let that let the mic drop on that because I feel like that's

(02:13:44):
a big deal. Say what one last time.
So you're saying when we eat carbs, 100 grams, our immune
system drops for five hours, five hours.
We can get anything. We could get a cold, we could
get I mean the stuff that's out there, let alone COVID.
And then if we do this ever and ever, the average American is
having 45500. Yeah, yeah, four, yeah, 400 to

(02:14:08):
500 grams of refined carbohydrates per day.
So then that's literally your whole that's over 20 some hours
a day, almost 30 hours a day. Your immune system is, what's
the best word, compromised or just depressed or lowered?
Rust lowered. So is that I mean just eating
three meals that contain 100 grams of refined carbohydrates
the entire day your immune system would be suppressed?

(02:14:32):
And as much as people are takingvitamin C and getting their
vitamin D and even their naturalsunlight, I mean, that helps a
little bit, right? It helps counter it or, or is it
just something that as much as that is nice, it's still
suppressed or, or how could takeus into how to counter that?
Not I'm not that I want to encourage people to eat
carbohydrates. I mean, we're trying to, I think
content everyone not don't eat carbs if you want to have a

(02:14:54):
strong immune system, right, Letalone do the fasting right.
Yeah, well, I don't eat refined carbohydrates.
There are certainly good sourcesof of carbohydrates, right?
Green bananas. Certain unrefined breads.
Like you say, green bananas. Green bananas, yeah, which are
essentially a more resistant starch.
They're not, they're definitely not sweet, right?

(02:15:14):
I remember my mother used to love the, the black, like the
not just brown, she'd like them because they're so sweet, right?
They get sweeter and, and I usually like avocados and things
like that. But so yours and, and I know
Paul Saladino has that. Have you, have you seen his work
with the plant toxicity spectrum?
He loves squash and things like that.
Very low sugar. So it's good to eat low sugar

(02:15:36):
carbohydrates obviously, right to do that unprocessed.
Right. Like the reason why a yellow
banana is so sweet compared to agreen banana is because all the
glucose is locked up in as resistant starch or fiber when
it's a green banana, so it's much more fiber than glucose.
As ripens, the resistant starch or fiber breaks down and
releases the glucose. I've never thought of eating

(02:16:01):
because, you know, when I go to Costco where I get my bananas,
I, I get them for my kids sometimes.
And, and, you know, I, I try notto eat them because usually, you
know, I always, always ate them back in the day when they were
softer, you know, and when they're hard, you're like, oh,
it's not, they're not ripe yet. And you always make fun of a
green banana because you're, you're, you're not ready for the
world yet, you know, but you're actually eating them when
they're green, right? Because they're healthier if

(02:16:22):
you're going to eat them that way.
Much healthier, so it's a great source of potassium, great
source of B vitamins, and low calorie and extremely filling
because it's a ton of fiber. And low sugar when it's green,
right? I would have never guessed that
a banana based on its timeline is healthy.
But it the sugar, how much more sugar happens when it gets more

(02:16:42):
yellow? And then obviously, like my mom,
she used to have them when they were brown, you know, and
definitely sweet as you know what.
But I mean, there's a difference.
It actually changes the profile of the banana right as it
ripens. Right.
Essentially you go from having 5grams of fiber in a in a green
banana to none. Oh my God, wow.
That's OK. Wow.

(02:17:03):
So all right, so back to what you're saying.
So if we eat 100 grams of carbohydrates, five hours loss
of immunity, what happens when we do the fasten, the autophagy?
Because now we can bolster that.And that's the way to, I mean,
if you are eating, we'll just say, for example, a nomad meal
like Sandy did on the Woman's World magazine cover, doing one
meal. And you end up, sure, you have a
little meat, a little carnivore,but you have some squash, maybe

(02:17:25):
spaghetti squash, maybe a green banana, maybe an avocado.
I don't know, you maybe, maybe you have some my favorite here.
I mean, I, I love David because he's on QVC, maybe some nachos,
I don't know. I mean, that definitely looks
like a Super Bowl party, right? But if you eat this.
Obviously. And then you fast though, say
for 23 hours, then tell us what the autophagy does to help.

(02:17:49):
I don't want to call it repair the body, but it helps.
Does it the housekeeping, right?It's, it's that type of because
I think that's the part I've explained.
But from your perspective, how does that work Briefly?
And then let's we'll wrap up here because I know it's getting
a little late, but I appreciate this is, I feel like this is
this is what we need to hear because I think people need
options, you know, because that everyone's going to do what I
recommend. They're not going to do what you

(02:18:10):
recommend. They're going to do what they
want. But I think if we can educate
them, they'll make a better decision, right?
Right, absolutely. So I mean, the fasting is going
to prevent the more meals and the more blood sugar spikes that
are hurting your immune cells for 4-5 hours, right?
So eliminating those glucose bombs is really going to
eliminate those bombs on your immune system that are damaging

(02:18:33):
them. And then really glycating
proteins, glycating your, your red blood cells so you can't
oxygenate your body as well. And of course, immunity comes
down to the health of your own cells as well.
And really the key with autophagy is the cleaning up of
damaged or old immune cells and replacing them with more
functioning immune cells. That's essentially the benefits.

(02:18:55):
So if we had a Super Bowl party,you know, at the end of the
month here or in February and wehave nachos and we eat a lot of
them. So we get our 100 grams of
carbs, maybe a few extra. And then the next day or we just
have that one big party meal or whatever we enjoy.
Not necessarily the perfect meal, but we have a high carb
meal and then we fast for 23 hours.

(02:19:15):
In that time time the body has time.
And if we extended even better, possibly just so we're cautious
of the minerals. We're we're trying to balance
out any, any acid in the body, right to, to balance that out.
Can we really in essence, I mean, for people that want to
want to do that on occasion, maybe have a cheat meal, shall
we say once a week. And I'm not saying it's Domino's

(02:19:35):
Pizza and nachos, but you know, some people do that.
I haven't had a Domino's Pizza since college probably.
But I feel like if they wanted to, in essence, they could do
that. It doesn't have to be just a
carnivore diet as healthy as that, that that would be
healthier. But the autophagy allows that
reset and, and, and the immune system comes back.
Is there a way to gauge it? If they if, if the carbohydrates

(02:19:57):
100 grams drops it for five hours, what does the autophagy
do to the immune system? Does it give it?
Is there some way to quantify it, maybe in the sense of a
result that people can have likea shield around them or they
feel like an extra layer of rather than suppression of, of,
of of strength, maybe of some sort, right?
Yeah, it'll bring you back to baseline.

(02:20:17):
I'll bring you back to, you know, the health of your immune
system prior to that that glucose load.
Yeah. And does it give you an edge as
well if you go longer in the sense of the extended fasting
where it can give you I, I don'twant to call it like super
powers, but like a super immunity.
Does that. I mean, in chapter 10, I know
you talk about the autophagy, but can it go to that level

(02:20:37):
sometimes where the stem cells are improved?
Because stem cells tend to, I mean, for anyone that's out
there, it's heard of this, It seems to be like a miracle.
Sometimes when people are near the very end of life, they, they
go to Mexico and they get stem cells.
You've heard of these people, right?
I mean, celebrities have done this.
And why did people do that? And how does autophagy help

(02:20:58):
that? Because I feel like that that's
like a that, that could be that that's almost magic, it seems.
But it's not because it's it's it's biology, right?
Yeah, you're switching over fromgrowth to resilience and
protection. And the the cancer studies that
really the chemotherapy studies are very clear on this, that if
people who have cancer, which they're already in a state of,

(02:21:20):
you know, low muscle and low protein, but if they fast two to
three days before chemotherapy, that dramatically reduces the
side effects and improves outcomes because this your
healthy cells are not, you're ina more of this repair mode.
So your antioxidant defenses areup.
So the chemotherapy isn't as damaging, your cells aren't
turning over as quickly. And so that has been, there's

(02:21:43):
been many studies to show that that and that's why we think the
autophagy really comes and kicksin at that two to three day mark
from based on those studies. To be sitting down here and
having a conversation with the author of what I think is
probably one of the most important books I've read in
2020. And I really do believe it's
it's a book that we need to examine because as you know, so

(02:22:04):
many of us right now are lookingfor more support, more control
over sugar, carbs and and salty snack foods.
And I always have to tell peoplethat it's not the salt that's
bad. It's the the chips, the
potatoes, the corn. And joining me on the other side
of the country here on the East Coast is a man who wrote a book
that has changed my thinking. I'll show you the cover here,

(02:22:25):
guys. It is a critical book, I think
in our in our quest for zero hunger.
And you know, we've had incredible conversations with
with incredible people. But this author really and this
man, Doctor James D Nicol Antonio, I hope I'm pronouncing
it right is on the other end. Would you say hi to everyone,
Doctor James? Just as a shortcut, right?
Yeah. Happy to be here, Jorge.

(02:22:46):
Thanks for having me. Oh my gosh, I'm I'm beyond
honored. I think your book says it best
in the subtitle Why Experts Got It Wrong and How Eating More
Salt may save your life. And, and that's a profound
statement. But I have to tell you, I've
been following a lot of what yourecommend in the book.
I've elevated my sodium intake it and you know, a lot of my

(02:23:08):
clients follow high fat, high protein diet.
They do a lot of intermittent fasting.
And when I read this, it just shifted my thinking because I
would say, and I'll let you kindof take the the introduction
here and, and, and introduce us to the thinking of salt.
But I think we've been told thatsalt is this, this mineral we
have to be so cautious of and, and it's still delicate.

(02:23:32):
And yet at the same time, we're not getting enough.
And it is important. I don't think it's a delicate
one that will harm us. And it's not that we want to
have a pound of salt every day. It's not something like that.
But we do need to elevate our intake.
And I couldn't agree with you more.
So I'm just honored to have you on the show here today.
And I'm and I'm hoping that by the end of our conversation,
everyone listening or watching can really have an idea, yeah,

(02:23:55):
of how to utilize salt and really as a, as a tool to fix
their health to some degree and perhaps help them feel better,
have less false hunger is what Icall it.
And, and I know, I know in the book you talk about people that
follow a kind of a keto based Atkins type diet.
And a lot of my clients do that.So I'm just thrilled to have
time with you. And, and thank you so much for

(02:24:16):
creating such an incredible conversation here.
And if you don't mind, share with everyone a little bit of
your background on how you can derive write this book because
you've written many books. And we'll mention your even your
newest book here at the end of the show because I think it's
incredible, all about immunity. But tell us a little bit of your
origin story if you don't mind, Doctor James, because I feel
like you, you're such a unique man.
I have not seen another book like this.

(02:24:38):
It's not like there's ten books on salt and why we need to eat
more salt. But please, if you wouldn't
mind, tell us a little bit of your of your beginnings and how
the work began and how the book came to to existence.
So I'm a cardiovascular researchscientist at Saint Luke's Mid
America Heart Institute, and I've been publishing on
nutrition and nutraceuticals for, you know, the past decade.

(02:25:00):
And my interest on salt and in the origin story was when I was
actually working as a community pharmacist, a lot of my patients
were put on diuretics for high blood pressure, right?
And told, told to cut out eatingsalt because that's the first
thing your doctor has sort of been trained to do.
If you have high blood pressure,they automatically tell you to

(02:25:21):
cut your salt intake right aboutreally the other primary
drivers, usually that's, you know, insulin resistance or
being overweight. They, they instantly go to just
cut the salt intake as if it's like this toxic poison, when
really nothing further could be from the truth because this is
an essential mineral. And so the origin story really

(02:25:42):
comes from a lot of my patients complaining to me as their
pharmacist that they don't feel well on these low salt diets or
these diuretics. And I would push them back.
I would say go back to your doctor, you know, tell them that
you're not feeling that good. Maybe have your sodium levels
checked. And a lot of times they were,
you know, deficient in salt. And when the doctor would, you

(02:26:02):
know, tell them to start eating more salt, they instantly felt
better. And probably the most emails
that I got from people after reading the book is that their
atrial fibrillation or their muscle cramps instantly improved
as soon as they started eating anormal salt intake again.
That's the origin. It wasn't really matching up
from not only from my patients that I was seeing as a community

(02:26:23):
pharmacist, but as a rustler anda cross country runner.
I've always known the importanceof salt to performance and
exercise. Well, and I'll tell you, being a
fitness trainer, I feel like a lot of people look at sodium and
they think they they don't thinkit's an electrolyte.
But can you explain to us why sodium right now is recommended
at a daily allowance that in your opinion, I would think you
would agree is too low? And why maybe sometimes

(02:26:46):
athletes, you know, as a trainer, I work with people that
do exercise and they've heard ofelectrolytes, they've heard of
Gatorade, but it has a lot of sugar traditionally and things
like that. But help us understand how the
experts got it all wrong. Because I feel like it in my
opinion, it's 100%. But I think a lot of people
think, well, how can the you know, the United States?
How can someone you know that recommends a daily allowance for

(02:27:09):
a whole country be off? And then share with us, if you
don't mind, what those numbers are and what in your humble
opinion they should be. And especially if we're
following an active lifestyle and maybe a keto based type of
diet, you know, because, you know, salt is something that can
be regulated. And and I remember years ago
reading how in the Roman times and Greek times, salt was so

(02:27:32):
precious. I think the word salary comes
from the word salt. Is that right, Doctor James?
That's that's correct. Yeah.
You know, people were worth their weight in salt.
And so I love the history of allthat.
I'm kind of a salt buff. So to have you on here, it
really is, you know, the best, but share with us a little more
about that because I feel like there's what what we're told by
the experts today and maybe identify who these experts are

(02:27:54):
and what they're telling us. And obviously then take us to
what you think is better. And then obviously if we're
fasting or doing keto diet, why that why why that those numbers
are probably accurate or if we need to take them up even a
pinch more, you know? Right.
Well, so most people don't really know the historical
intakes of salt, you know, throughout the past 10,000
years, which was, you know, in European countries, typically

(02:28:15):
three times the amount compared to what we consume today because
they never refrigerators to preserve foods.
They preserved all their food insalt.
And you actually need quite a bit of salt if you're only
utilizing that substance to preserve a food.
So it was just literally just packed full of salt to preserve
fish and meats and all these things, right.

(02:28:36):
So, so for the last 10,000 yearswe have been consuming, you
know, around 25 to 50 grams of salt per day and.
One more time, because what? What are we told currently by
the government? What would you say and then say
that? Most most governments tell you
to consume no more than 6 grams of salt, whereas historically we

(02:28:57):
were typically around 25 to 50 grams of salt.
Wow, and this is 10,000 years ago, right?
A record and all the way up until until what time did things
shift, would you say? Up until the invention of the
refrigerator and then once, oncewe were able to refrigerate
foods right in the 1930s, forties, 50's, the the intake of

(02:29:20):
salt sort of normalized to what it's at today, which is about 1
1/2 teaspoons is what most people consume. 1 1/2 teaspoons
and if now tell us what are the agencies in the government that
regulate this and what what is that is that they're is that
they're not their recommended daily allowance is that how that
works? Give us a minute on that if you
would. So typically on the historical

(02:29:42):
recommendations from the American Heart Association have
been less than 1500 milligrams of sodium, which is essentially
less than about a teas, what, half a teaspoon of salt.
And they don't tell you a minimal amount though.
They just they just have this less than sign as if this is not
an essential mineral. They should also have, well, you
should at least be consuming X amount per day.

(02:30:03):
So it's just sort of consume less than this amount.
And some of the guidelines have gotten a little bit looser
because now, you know, more information has been coming out
that low salt can be harmful. Typically now the US, you know,
dietary guidelines, they, they sort of cap it at around 2300
milligrams, which is a teaspoon of salt, one teaspoon.

(02:30:27):
But really, most of the data suggests that 1 1/2 teaspoons is
associated with less cardiovascular events, less
mortality, and, you know, reallyimprovements in insulin
sensitivity and, and all these things.
This is incredible. And and what I'm blown away with
is that what you said is historically true.
I mean that the invention of therefrigerator was documented in

(02:30:49):
30s, as you said to there, and maybe there was one or two
earlier, but for thousands of years salt was the tool used to
preserve things and the tool nowsoldiers in the Roman times was
this at anytime in history, saltwas looked at and not as magic
necessarily, but it's a tool that gave our bodies vitality.

(02:31:11):
How would you describe that energy?
Tell us what the right amount ofsalt will make us feel like.
And obviously, the numbers that we have now, I mean, you know,
the majority of the people I work with are exhausted.
They're tired, they're hungry all the time.
It goes on and on and on. And then maybe we can connect it
to hunger because obviously we've lowered the salt so much
that may impact appetite. So I'll let you kind of take it,

(02:31:33):
please. Yeah, well, I mean, the
importance for Roman times was very important for their armies.
I mean, back back in those days and even really back just 50
years ago, rations, war rations always had typically about 18
grams of salt per soldier per day.
So that that's how important, you know, going to war.

(02:31:54):
If you want to have an army thatcan go to war and fight, you
need to have enough salt for these people to be active and
actually protect your country. So that that's why it was really
you were worth your weight in salt because you were literally
fighting for the protection of the country, right?
Yeah. That's kind of it's it's an
interesting historical perspective, but I think the

(02:32:15):
confusion why people think salt is harmful is because the sugar
industry really got involved in this whole dietary debate and
they needed a scapegoat, right? So if if they wanted sugar to
sort of have a free pass, what other white crystal could they
blame all the harms on high blood pressure, on hunger, on

(02:32:36):
cravings, on obesity? It was salt.
That's what they did. So I mean, we know too for a
fact that the sugar industry paid numerous scientists to
publish papers to sort of, you know, scapegoat other, you know,
substances as being harmful and sugar being harmless.
And really salt took the brunt of that for blood pressure and
cravings and and being an addictive substance, right?

(02:32:58):
But it's really not the salt that's that can be addictive.
It's really the sugar. And people are just starting to
figure this out. And then that type of craving
and addiction can lead to out ofcontrol hunger and weight gain.
So it's just it's really interesting how these crystals
work from a taste perspective and how that actually activates
sort of the hunger and craving centers in the brain.

(02:33:20):
I, I feel like what you're saying, not only is the light
bulb, as Oprah would say, it's an aha moment here going off,
but I feel like what you're saying makes so much it.
It's, it's almost like when I, when I have conversations with
people who studied anthropological ancestral health
and what our ancestors ate. And you know, and then obviously
before there was refrigeration and before there was preserve,

(02:33:43):
preserve, the foods were preserved with other items
outside of salt. We, we haunted and we gathered
foods and we did a lot of hunting.
And, you know, we've had on the show Doctor Paul Saladino and
Doctor Paul, Sean Baker and MarkSisson and their primal
perspective on what we did as asa, as a, as a species is so
powerful. Because history, I mean, history

(02:34:04):
is history for the most part. Hopefully it's not distorted,
but this history is very well documented.
And so salt as it became villainized, I hate to call it
that. I mean, it almost sounds like a
conspiracy theory that Salt became just the bad guy because
I mean, how did they pick that? How did that happen?
Because I feel like they that the experts that you mentioned

(02:34:27):
in the book obviously have made for decades.
And how many decades has it been, would you say, Doctor
James, where people have looked to Salt as this bad guy?
Was it from the 1930s forties? How did that villain vibe become
there? And then obviously tell us what
the fix is because obviously we need to change things.
And I think, you know, this, your book has given people, I

(02:34:48):
think the truth, you know, it almost feels like it should be a
documentary. And, and I feel like this truth
is not being talked about. I feel like your book is the
primary book that I mean, it's AD book on Amazon and everywhere
we go. And I feel like I would wish
there were more of them. But I feel like you're, you
don't have a huge, you don't have a large group of people
that you know, there's like 10 books on salt and why we all

(02:35:10):
need them. There's books on sugar.
Definitely sugar has become I think people now know and it's a
battle. I'm sure you would agree that
you know that the sugar companies are probably saying,
well, not all sugar is bad if it's healthy, you know, whole
sugar cane sugar and all this. But tell us how we we lost our
weight possibly and how, how didthey, how did they pick this?
Do you have an idea on that? Or what can you share from the

(02:35:32):
book, perhaps on how it became fulfilling?
Just from sort of, let's say an evolutionary perspective when
when we would hunt an animal, mammals are essentially walking
bags of salt, right? And so per liter of fluid,
you're going to have 1 1/2 teaspoons or essentially a full
day's worth of salt in that animal, right?
And we know that, that we humans, we contain 5 liters of

(02:35:53):
blood and that's not counting interstitial fluid, right?
And we know traditional, even the Maasai, they'll actually
drink the blood of their cattle and milk as well, which is
fairly salty. But we can, we could follow
animals to salt licks and directly consume salt from a
lick, right? Or we could get brackish or
salty water and just consume it straight.

(02:36:14):
So we've always had access to this pure, either saline
solution through the, the mammals we would hunt or just
going to the salt licks that andfollowing the animal trails.
So we always have been, you know, our tastes have always
been activated by pure salt, butnot sugar.
So the prep. So right.
And so that's the, that's one evolutionary difference.

(02:36:35):
We did get some sugar through fruit, but there's a huge
difference between consuming sugar, a little bit of sugar
that comes with fiber and water versus a highly purified white
crystal. And sort of to give you an
example of this, right, because people will be like, well, how
can sugar be addictive? It's in fruit, right?
It doesn't, right? It's in plant.

(02:36:56):
It's in a plant, right? Well, if you think about it, if
you extract plant compounds right from let's say the cocaine
leaf and you get cocaine or you,or you can get opium, right?
You extract these purely crystals right from these
plants. Now you have a highly addictive
substance because it's about the, the concentration and the
purity and boiling down and getting the the, the sugar cane

(02:37:21):
and the fluid out and then forming this white crystal.
You now have this very, very hyper palatable purified
substance that can activate the dopamine receptors in the brain
to a much greater degree and this sort of hyper release of
dopamine. We get high, we get addicted.
To it right high and then the more you get the more you need

(02:37:42):
to get that high so that's sort of just how I try to explain how
sugar can potentially be addictive and now it's not you
know addictive for everyone justlike alcohol isn't addictive for
everyone. But there is a subset of people
that when you consume sugar, it leads to this craving this
massive out of control hunger consumption especially or food

(02:38:04):
consumption due to this, you know massive release of dopamine
and when you don't get enough salt there had to there had to
have been something because it'san essential mineral there had
to have been a way that tells mammals and tells humans seek
out this substance when you're deficient there has to be a
signal. Well, when you don't have enough

(02:38:25):
salt, what happens is the the dopamine receptors in the brain
become hyperactivated. So essentially, if you don't, if
you're not getting enough salt, when you consume any other
substance that can activate the reward receptors in the brain,
it makes it more, let's say, addictive.
That includes sugar, that includes medications, that
includes things like Adderall. They've tested this on animals.

(02:38:49):
They will deplete an animal of salt.
And then if they give them things like cocaine or Adderall,
those substances become much more addictive because low salt
activates the reward centers in the brain.
Because when you, when you, whenthat happens, it's, it's what
saves you. It's what drives the animal or
the human to seek out the salt, get the reward and consume it so

(02:39:12):
you don't die of salt deficiency.
So that that's how the body works and that's how cravings
work. Yeah.
So for anyone out there that hascravings, I mean, I think that's
the word and especially the sugar and carbs, you know,
because I think, I mean, all weight gain and right now with
COVID-19 and, and people wondering about underlying
health conditions and being overweight is definitely not

(02:39:34):
helpful. You know, you want to be, I
mean, I, I unknowingly, I've shared this on, on the podcast,
but back in September did not know I had COVID-19 and tested
about two months ago for the, the antibodies and had them and
I had a little trouble breathing.
I used to have asthma 30 years ago when I was a kid and I
thought it was just bad asthma, but I didn't quarantine.
I saw my sons and I didn't know I had it.

(02:39:54):
And I was, I feel like I had a little bit of an advantage being
leaner and stronger and having ahealthy diet and doing OMAD one
meal a day and all that. You know, I have a high protein,
high fat diet. So I feel like I was lucky.
But with these cravings, a lot of people, as you know, have
gained what they're calling now the the COVID, the COVID-19,
which is 19 lbs. Of, of valley fat, it seems to

(02:40:17):
always be in the valley. And so, you know, for anyone out
there that's trying to lose weight, you know what I've, I've
suggested to them is, you know, I'll have with me like right now
here, I'll pond rising. I'll have 32 ounces of water and
I'll usually add 1/4 of a teaspoon about 1000 milligrams
of salt in my 32 ounces of water.
And so we do the math. Some of my clients will take a

(02:40:37):
gallon of water. You know, sometimes they work
out and they take more water with them.
So we'll we'll times that by I think 3 correct about 128 ounces
of water would be three of theseI believe.
Is that right or is it 4 not 128/ 32?
Let me double check. But what would you, what is
that? Was I right?
Yeah, 4. Yeah, 4/4, so before these.

(02:41:00):
So that's in a gallon. So you know, so that would be if
it's 1/4 of a teaspoon, 1000 milligrams of the fine salt, but
it's coarse salt. I always tell people to double.
I don't know if you would agree with that because it's a little
more bulky, the coarser salts, you know, more the crystals.
But whether it's 1/4 and 32 oz or I guess a full teaspoon in a
gallon of water, for me, it doesn't seem like a lot of salt

(02:41:21):
in the water and it doesn't makethe water excessively salty.
It's just how would you, it's like a saline, I think you were
saying, right. Is that an amount that you would
suggest? As I know a lot of keto people,
Rob Wolf was someone who suggested that to us about
1000kg and 32 oz. You could do it in less, but
then it becomes very salty. But what would you suggest for
anyone out there as, as a, as a prescription of sorts for an

(02:41:43):
active lifestyle? If they're doing something where
they're they're perhaps trying to eat less, you know, and
control those urges for sugar and carbs.
Do you think that prescription is something you would suggest
or tell us what you what you think about an amount that you
would suggest on on the low end maybe As for, you know, the
middle and at the highest point maybe a range of sorts, you

(02:42:05):
know. Yes, I mean, salt needs are
always kind of determined by losses.
So it's not going to be determined by someone's
lifestyle and and sort of where they sit on the spectrum of
insulin resistance. So I mean, first, the one thing
I do think we should probably clarify, please.
A lot of people are told that they're salt sensitive, meaning

(02:42:27):
their blood pressure will go up when they consume a normal
amount of salt and they're told to cut their salt intake.
Well the majority of the time what is actually happening is
they're actually just insulin resistant because they're eating
too many refined carbs and sugars.
And if these people would just drop the refined carbs and
sugar, they wouldn't over retainthe salt.
So it's not that you should juststart eating more salt.

(02:42:50):
It's make sure you first cut outthe refined carbs and sugar so
you can tolerate a normal salt intake.
And then also make sure you're consuming enough magnesium and
potassium, because that allows us to utilize salt in the
appropriate way. But if you, if you fix all of
that, then we see that these people that are on ketogenic
diets, right? They need a little bit more
salt. So typically adding one to 2G of

(02:43:13):
sodium extra compared to the typical 3 grams of sodium.
And let's say a normal person, they seem to do much better
because when when you drop the insulin, you start spilling
sodium out in the urine, you start losing it more.
And then glucose helps us absorbsodium as well.
So chronically, a lot of these people feel better with more
salt because they're not absorbing it as well.

(02:43:35):
Yes. Well, I think that's so critical
because obviously your lifestyledetermines what you lose faster
and if you're active and not active and what you're eating.
So the current, just to kind of set a little footnote in the
conversation here, the current recommended daily allowance,
tell us what that is what you just said for the average
person. And then based on something that
I'm suggesting about 1/4 of a teaspoon of the fine salts in 32

(02:43:58):
oz. And you know, we have clients
that are doing this and their appetite stops.
They literally will have the sapon rising.
They don't even feel like they need coffee, right?
And what happens is they go on and they'll have a few of these
a day. And their greatest concern is,
you know, if they do this and have good energy, they feel
good. They, they don't have an
appetite. They're like, I'm not going to
be OK. And, and they're fine.

(02:44:19):
They don't pass out. They don't feel faint, you know,
lightheaded and they end up having one meal a day or so.
And I have some clients that do even longer fasts, but but you
know, they get concerned is too much salt too much salt.
So maybe then take us to the extreme of what would be too
much because what you shared what our ancestors did.
What was that number from the ancient times when we would

(02:44:39):
preserve meat with that it was 25g was.
It like. A lot, right?
Well, they've tested this out and people who are have normal
blood pressure, 80% of those people are not salt sensitive.
So, so there's been studies giving these people up to 80 to
100 grams of salt and there's noincrease in blood pressure.

(02:45:00):
Or if there is, it's very tiny. When we say a gram and you're
saying up to 80 grams, what is that in milligrams?
That's 1000 per gram, right? Right.
That's yeah, that'd be 80,000 milligrams.
I mean, because right now I haveclients that are doing this
gallon of water with four of these as we did the math there,
right and it has 1/4 of a teaspoon.
So we end up having a teaspoon teaspoon of salt.

(02:45:22):
A teaspoon of salt is. How many grams would you say?
So a teaspoon of salt is 2300 milligrams or 2.3 grams of
sodium. Doesn't seem like a lot 2.3 and
yet we could at times and duringour these kind of like beginning
times when we were preserving food with salt, the numbers were
as high as 80 as well back then or more 25 to 30.

(02:45:45):
Is that hard to? Say, well, we've tested 80 to
100 grams of salt, normal tons of people and essentially that
usually, you know, doesn't even move the needle on blood
pressure and the majority of normal blood pressure, yes.
Because is that the primary concern that the villain of Salt
has become, right, Doctor James,this idea that blood pressure is

(02:46:07):
going to go too high? Because I think when I said this
originally to certain clients, whether they're celebrities or
people we work with online or listeners of our podcast, they,
they get concerned that a gram or two extra could literally
knock them debt. You know, tell me to share with
everyone how these numbers really like the greatest concern
from having the salt. I mean, what, what are the, what

(02:46:30):
are the side effects? And they can be positive because
I feel more energy, more hunger control.
But what would, is there any negative at all?
Is there anything that the experts were partially right on
because they feel like they weretotally wrong?
I mean, I hate to, to make fun of what this work has been of
these other folks, but they've really made this a villain.
But it has no ammo. It seems to have no truth to it.

(02:46:52):
I, I feel like we've been truly misled down a path of concern
that doesn't exist. Is that possible?
Well, we have been misled because it's a quick fix for
someone who is insulin resistant, right?
And you can't handle as much salt.
So for those people, they might see some fluid retention, but
they've never, you know, sort ofhelp these people understand the

(02:47:14):
underlying root cause of why allof a sudden you can't tolerate a
normal salt intake. So, you know, for, for some
people, they eat a normal amountof salt and they don't do well
because they can't tolerate it. But if they simply cut the
refined carbs, cut the sugar, orthey may have high levels of
aldosterone, which can be treated.
Usually there's an underlying reason why it's very rare that

(02:47:37):
you have a genetic kidney issue where you're over absorbing
salt. Hey, it's Jorge and I just
wanted to interrupt the show just for a moment to invite you
to head on over and sign up for my daily 0 hunger e-mail that'll
give you each day a simple what to eat to get radical control
over your sugar, carb and salty snack food cravings.

(02:47:59):
And if this is something you want to conquer and make a
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It will really give you tools every day to keep building that
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I'll spell it for you. It's with AZZERO,
0hungerplan.com and it's all free.

(02:48:21):
I'll see you there. Let's get back to the show So.
It's really just figuring out the root cause of the of the
problem, and then once you fix that, a normal intake of salt
seems to be much more beneficialthan.
And not to interrupt you, but soyou keep, you mentioned sugar
and carbs, which obviously is something that we limit and I've
recommended to clients and to the listeners of the podcast,

(02:48:44):
tell us how sugar and carbs withthe combination of too much
salt, that could be a pairing that could cause problem.
And when you remove the salt, why does the the pairing
disappear? Why does the issue seem to just
fade away? I mean, because how does the
sugar amplify the negative impact of salt, right?
Right, exactly. So essentially when you consume

(02:49:06):
a diet high in sugar and carbs, you have an increase in it in
the hormone insulin. And insulin causes the kidneys
to over retain salt. And so when you drop the carbs
and sugars, you drop the insulin, and now you can start,
you know, handling the normal amount of salt appropriately.
And with this appropriate amountof salt and, and what would you

(02:49:26):
say for anyone who may be just astandard person listening,
they're not following a particular diet, but they
definitely are trying to lose weight.
And obviously, if they cut theircarbs, what would be a range
that would be on the low and then on the high?
Because obviously, you know, I, I feel this conversation is
going to help people to enjoy salt again.
But what would be a range you would give them an on a high

(02:49:47):
end? I know 80 grams seems excessive.
I don't know if you would suggest that much for anyone out
there, but what would be your range?
Sort of set. So if you can fix someone's
underlying insulin resistance and get them to a non salt
sensitive state then. Cut the carbs out and the sugars
sort. Of.
To be so, so blunt, right? Right.

(02:50:08):
Well, I mean, and that's the truth that sometimes health is
as simple as that, really, that 1 1/2 teaspoons of salt for most
people seems to be the sweet spot because when you start
going below that level of intake, when you start going
below 3000 milligrams of sodium,all the stress hormones start
increasing and heart rate startsgoing up.
When you go below, say the number again 3000. 3000 when you

(02:50:29):
go below 3000. Which is 3G correct?
Yeah, that's three grams of sodium, yeah, which is about a 1
1/2 teaspoons. You go below that and in a
particularly if you get below one to 1/2 of a teaspoon, this
is where you really see traumatic rises in things like
renin, aldosterone, noradrenaline, epinephrine,

(02:50:52):
right? All these stress hormones get
highly activated. We block these stress hormones
with medications to reduce cardiovascular disease.
So you know what I mean? So if you go on a low salt diet,
you're putting yourself in this very stressful state and your
heart rate can be upwards of 6 to 10 beats per minute higher
and you go on these low salt intakes.
So when you actually look at it from if you multiply the heart

(02:51:13):
rate by the blood pressure on a low salt diet, it's almost
always harmful in regards to stressing the heart out.
So with three grams being that, what would you say the upper
limit would be if someone were very active and sweating and and
what would cause them to want more?
And, and what would you say is Idon't know, give give us an
example of a person that would need double that, triple that.

(02:51:35):
What would it be a range that you would take to the higher it?
Yeah. So I mean, so for normal people
that that 1 1/2 teaspoons seems to be the sweet spot, right?
Around 3000 to 3500 milligrams of sodium seems to be perfect.
When you start exercising, particularly in the heat, and

(02:51:57):
this depends on the person, you on average you lose about 1/2 a
teaspoon of salt per hour of exercise through sweat.
So now you got to add in 1/2 a teaspoon of salt for every hour
that you've exercised. But if you get, if you're doing
this in really hot temperatures like 90°F, studies show you can
lose anywhere from 1 to 2 teaspoons of salt per hour.
So it just really depends on your lifestyle, how hot it, how

(02:52:19):
hot it is outside, how much you're sweating.
Are you going into a sauna, right?
And also like caffeine intake. So coffee not just is not only a
diuretic, it's a natural erratic.
It causes you to lose a tremendous amount of salt.
So 4 cups, Yeah, we're all. Java junkies, right?
And so we never used to drink really coffee on a daily basis

(02:52:41):
in evolutionary time. So all of us are on this natural
salt wasting substance, which iswe, which what we call coffee.
But any caffeinated beverage is going to cause up to a, you
know, half a teaspoon of salt loss if you consume around this
300 to 400 milligrams of caffeine in like a one to two
hour range. So you're saying with One Cup of

(02:53:02):
coffee, and you know, most people don't have a small cup of
coffee. It's not something elegant.
They go to Starbucks and it's something large, very Grande.
Coffee will cause most people tolose about one 8th 1/8 of a
teaspoon of salt. And then when you start, yeah.
And then if you get to the threeto four cup range, you lose
about 1/2 a teaspoon of salt, which most health institutes

(02:53:24):
tell you is the maximum amount you should be consuming.
And you're and you're losing that in just drinking 3 or 4
cups of coffee, or you're losingthat in just, you know, 30 to 60
minutes of exercise. So there has to be some nuance
in this discussion. So if someone is listening to
this and they get your book and they follow on social and we're
going to give out all that information and their doctor now

(02:53:45):
says, you're crazy. Who is this guy?
This is Doctor James. I mean, he, you know, he's just
trying to sell books. What do we tell them?
What, what part of? Because I'm going to tell
everyone to please get your book.
And of course, we're going to talk about your new book.
I want to spend some time on that for just a moment or two,
maybe two or three minutes, because I think it's an
incredible book about immunity. And with COVID-19, I mean, we
need to lose weight, but we alsohave to know how to bolster

(02:54:07):
immunity and, and improve our immunity.
But what would you say to someone out there that they not,
not that they're going to battles with their physicians,
but I'm sure and you're and you're working with so many
people. If that if that obstacle occurs
where they're getting pressure, whether it's from loved ones,
doctors, experts, what does one show them from your book?
What does what is something thatyou could share?

(02:54:29):
And I don't know if there's a couple of studies or research
studies that you could mention one or two that people could
Google that they could literallyshow to their physician and say,
no, look at this. This was a study done at Harvard
or something like that. I don't know what, what ammo we
could give them a one piece of really strong ammunition.
Obviously your book is the key one.
Yeah, I mean, well, the book hasover 500 references and it took,

(02:54:52):
it took me over three years to research and write this book.
It was a labor of love. But I think from a from a
discussion standpoint, you know,doctors, they don't necessarily
want to be told by their patientor read this book, you're you're
wrong, right? That's going to instantly put up
a wall and they're going to instantly not be receptive to
information. So how you could kind of
approach this is, is, you know, doc, if I lose some weight and

(02:55:15):
maybe cut out some of these carbs and sugar and, and fix my
high insulin levels, do you think I can start adding a
little bit more salt back to some of my food so I can start
eating healthier again and exercising more?
Because I don't feel that good on this low salt diet, right?
If you come from a place, if I don't feel that good and maybe
here's a way where I can tolerate a normal salt again,

(02:55:36):
that's a better approach I think.
If there is one study, that is the study that is probably the
most essential. Is there one that comes to mind?
Or was your research of the 500 or so?
Right, there's, I mean it depends on what type of study
you're looking at. I mean Intersalt was the was the
biggest study that demonized a normal salt intake.

(02:55:58):
The problem is though, is there was a new sort of secondary
study when they removed the foursort of tribal groups that were
consuming this very, very low amount of salt, like 500
milligrams or less per day. When they removed those four
groups and in the inter salt study, so the interstal

(02:56:19):
contained 52 populations. When you remove those four, it
became 48. Blood pressure actually went up
or actually slightly went down with an increase in salt intake.
So inter salt was one of the biggest population studies
demonizing salt because as salt intake went up in those 52
populations, blood pressure wentup when you remove the group

(02:56:41):
that was consuming this very, very low range.
And you looked at an actual, youknow, western population, you
looked at 48 countries, blood pressure actually slightly went
down as as salt intake went up. And so that was like a really
key observational study. And then there I mean, the, if
you look at any meta analysis onpeople with normal blood
pressure from the actual clinical studies, low salt

(02:57:03):
intakes don't ever lower blood pressure really more than one to
two points, virtually nothing. But they always raise heart rate
by a fairly dramatic amount. And so those studies are
important. But really there's been studies
published in New England Journalof Medicine that have shown
they're looking at over 100,000 people that if you go below that
3000 milligrams of sodium per day, you're at a much higher

(02:57:24):
risk of dying from heart diseaseor all 'cause mortality.
And so those are really important studies too.
So if the new the journal, whichjournal?
It was new. England, New England Journal.
If they're reporting or this idea that a 3000 you had
mentioned is a good number. Yeah, less than 3 was the worst.
Less than three and what is and what is our current recommended

(02:57:46):
daily allowance in the in the USwould you say?
Yeah. So most health institutes say
you should not eat more than 2300 milligrams.
Of. Sodium.
And that that number is obviously their upper limit too,
as you said with the with the the sign the greater than or
less than the less than sign right upper limit.
Correct. The upper limit.

(02:58:07):
So for someone watching right now, obviously they need to get
your book, but I would say, how would you not tend on this note,
because I want to talk about your new book, but how would you
put everything they've been toldfor I, I want to say since the
refrigerator was invented to notto put away the salt and not
that a particular type of salt is better than other.

(02:58:29):
I know some salts are contaminated and, and with
plastics and we want to try to get a more of an ancient source
for mines down deep. I love Redmond's Real Salt.
Have you heard of those folks back in Utah?
We have good salt and has extra minerals in there, But what
would you say for someone who's just their mind has been blown
with this conversation? They're like, why are these guys
who's Doctor James and, and obviously this book has been a

(02:58:51):
best seller and, and I think it's such a critical resource
and, and it's spent, you spent three years, as you said,
putting this together, But what would, what would you say to
these people that are listening to this for the first time?
And really they don't know what to do next?
What's the next step for someonewho wants to improve their
health? Obviously we're going to cut
carbs out. I can promise you that, and

(02:59:11):
sugars. But then when can we start
adding the salt back in and get this fixed going?
I mean, literally, you could start at any time.
It's not like, well, I got to check with my doctor or should
they or what, what would be the next step?
What would you suggest? Well, I think, you know, so many
people are have metabolic dysfunction and they're on
medications that cause blood sugar to drop.

(02:59:31):
So you do want to work with yourdoctor because if you start
cutting out right, the refined carbs and sugars, you're not
going to need as high of a dose of these medicines.
And so you do need to, these people do need to be monitored
by their doctor. They should be working in
conjunction with their doctor and getting the OK and saying, I
plan on reducing my carb intake from 400 grams this week to 300,

(02:59:52):
then maybe to 200, then to 100. And then when can I get my
health intake and, and have the blood pressure and all that
checked. And, and typically if you work
with your doctor and you start using salt to eat healthy real
food, because now all of a sudden those bitter foods that
you didn't used to like, like those greens, they start
tasting. Much better when you start
sprinkling a little bit of healthy salt down there.

(03:00:13):
I agree 100%. And so by adding that so, and if
someone does a cold Turkey, theyjust say literally no pun
intended with the Turkey, but just cut out the carbs and the
sugars. And now they're on a kind of a
carnivore diet kind of like withDoctor Baker and Doctor Saladino
have recommended. A lot of my clients are
embracing that and they've made the jump.
They just decided to cut it out and they're improving their

(03:00:35):
health with salt intake. Is the amount 1000 milligrams
per or 32 oz, Does that seem reasonable or what we say was
about a full teaspoon for a gallon of water, Does that seem
like a fair number to you or do you think it should be able to
higher or a little lower? Or is that number seem safe for
someone who's cut out the carbs?Yeah.

(03:00:56):
I mean, I hate to put a number on it because it just depends on
like, right? And so your body typically will
tell you how much fluid to consume and it and if you start
listening to those signals as well, it'll sort of guide you to
a good spot for salt intake too.What, what is a natural way for
people to know if they're getting the right amounts?
I mean, obviously their hunger gets regulated, correct?

(03:01:18):
Their hunger and energy feels good and, and maybe what would
be the the gauges for when you're too low on sugar, though,
Obviously more appetite, more tiredness.
What give us a few guidelines sopeople can, can kind of figure
out that range for themselves ifthey've cut the carbs out, cut
the sugars out. You know, I'm following this,
this guideline obviously of about 1000 milligrams for about

(03:01:39):
32 ounces of water. You know, and, and I think we're
in a safe limit where if it's a whole gallon of water, which we,
I think we calculated this for these, right?
It's a teaspoon of salt, which doesn't shock you at all.
You're, I think we're in the safe realm.
What would be the the guidelinesto know if that is working for
them based on is it energy, how they feel, appetite right things

(03:02:00):
like that? Yes, I mean, the most common
signs of not having enough salt intake would be Lightheadedness,
especially when you go from a seated to a standing position,
all of a sudden you feel lightheaded, right, Because the
main sign of not having enough salt is a low blood volume.
And essentially then all the symptoms stem from that.

(03:02:20):
So when you don't have a good blood volume, your exercise
performance goes down, you feel fatigued, you're lightheaded,
you can start getting muscle cramps.
So there's there's these signs to look for and that has to be
that maybe you might be deficient in salt.
And if you're too high in salt, what what what's a sign that
immediately says, Oh my gosh, cut back on the salt.
Not that we, we that would happen.

(03:02:41):
It sounds like our bodies can take high, high levels of that.
But you always hear people worried about, you know, whether
it's the bathroom going to the bathroom too much.
Is there? Is that some truth to that?
I think yes, that people who if you do consume more than a
normal intake, your bathroom frequency can increase, of

(03:03:02):
course. However, both as they would say
#1 and #2 so both the urine and and and going to the bathroom
bowel movements or. Just to be specific.
Yeah, I mean, bowel movements could increase too, Sure.
OK, OK. But it shouldn't be runny stools
or anything like that. I mean, people should be normal.
They should be fine. I mean, even with high levels of
salt, right? That doesn't, I've heard that as

(03:03:22):
a myth. I think it's more of a myth,
right? Yeah, I mean, it depends on the
person. I think the the main symptoms
and signals for someone who's probably having too much salt,
and this is probably because they're metabolically just, you
know, they're, they're, they have metabolic syndrome is they
see the swelling in the hands orthe feet when they consume salt.
And now to me, that's a huge redflag.
You know, that person may have insulin resistance or might not

(03:03:44):
be getting enough potassium or magnesium or there's something
going on that should not happen.OK.
So it's more of a of a retentionand fluid and but that's paired
with sugar and carbs as you had mentioned, right?
It's almost always parents so. It's almost always in these
people who have insulin resistance.
Incredible, incredible. Well, tell us for a moment, I
see the book behind you through this immunity fix.

(03:04:06):
Obviously the world has changed.It's almost 2021 now and I feel
like obviously the salt fix can be very beneficial to help us
with energy, health, regulating appetite.
But tell us your, your newest book.
Just give us a little insight onto that because I want people to
pick that up as well. I think it's a, it's a book that
right now I think people want toknow about, about their

(03:04:27):
immunity. And would you, would you share a
little bit about the new book, please?
Sure. So so this new book really
stemmed from several publications of mine.
And then I started saying, well,people don't really read
scientific journals. I might, I might as well turn
this into a book. And it ended up turning into
that has, you know, almost 2500 references.
Wow. It's like this encyclopedia on

(03:04:49):
immune health and and you know what supplements can help
support the immune system. But when I started looking at
some of this, I wanted to take adifferent approach.
Most people view their immune system as a mask or not a mask
or having a vaccine or not having a vaccine.
But the people can do things to improve their own immune
function. And this is what's important,
right, That support their own immune system.

(03:05:10):
And you know, the study started showing that if you have
metabolic syndrome, which is a constellation of three or more
of the five following issues with high blood pressure, high
triglycerides, high glucose, high waste circumference and low
HDL. If you have three or more of
those, that's considered metabolic syndrome and those

(03:05:31):
people are at a 3 1/2 fold higher risk of dying from COVID
and a four and a half fold higher risk of ending up in the
ICU. So, and we know things that can
fix metabolic syndrome rather quickly.
I mean, simply going on a diet, low and refined carbs and sugar
can help fix metabolic syndrome within a few weeks.
And if that syndrome is increasing your risk 3 to 4 fold
depending up in the ICU or dyingfrom COVID, well then people

(03:05:53):
need to understand that what they're putting in their bodies
is determining their own immune health and how well they can
fight against viruses. I think that is a powerful
message and and I feel like in today's world, we feel like so
much of what we have going on wecan't control.
But the very thing you just mentioned is the one thing we
can't control what we eat, how we think.

(03:06:15):
And this book, obviously it's available everywhere.
What for someone who is considering the salt fix and
immunity fix, what would you saythis book has given readers that
the immunity fix, the new book in the sense of a prescription
on how to overcome, and I think that's incredible.
There are 5 five factors, right?Five factors and a high waist

(03:06:36):
circumference. Maybe you could talk for a
moment on that because I know somany people watching this hate
belly fat, but that's a high waist circumference, right?
And how that can can really put you at at a high level of
concern. And I feel like that's why I got
through COVID-19 myself. Didn't even know I had it, other
than a little bit of a difficultat night breathing and I had my
asthma inhaler. So it helped to some degree, but

(03:06:58):
I got through it. But you know, I, I have a flat
stomach. Back in the day 20 years ago or
25 years ago, I was overweight. And so I know a lot of people
watching have a high waist circumference and cutting out
sugar and carbs. Is that one of the tools that
you talk about in the book as well then?
Yeah. Yeah, 100%.
And well, the one scary thing too is, is that a lot of people

(03:07:18):
can be thin on the outside, but actually on the inside, right,
they have this fat in and aroundtheir organs.
It's called visceral fat. I know you're familiar with
that. It's almost like you're not even
protected. Of course, you're at a higher
risk if you have a high waist circumference, but but you're
not safe, so to speak, even if you have, even if you're thin on
the outside because you might bemetabolically sick.

(03:07:39):
And that's why checking triglyceride levels and insulin
levels and things like that and blood pressure are good signals
if you may or may not have insulin resistance.
But really too, I mean, the media has covered that the
elderly are at are the most at risk for COVID.
We hear that a lot. True or false or yes or?
It is true, but we don't have any control over that, right?

(03:08:00):
You don't have over your age. But what they don't talk about
is things like vitamin D deficiency.
If you're significantly deficient in vitamin D, that's
actually a worse risk factor than being old.
It's been shown to increase the risk of dying from COVID by 15
fold. 15 fold. Vitamin D, vitamin D, What is a
good number from the book that you would suggest?

(03:08:20):
I mean, I feel like you're the doctor that can give us the,
the, the ranges, you know? Yes.
So vitamin D deficiency is typically diagnosed at less than
20 nanograms per amount. And typical sufficiency levels
or, or levels, you know, that are considered normal are
usually above 30 nanograms. And what's in what's interesting

(03:08:44):
is we're starting to see studiesthat if you're at really 55,
that that might be the best level to be at, right?
And so, but the most of the population, 1 billion people
globally are vitamin D deficiency and half the global
population is vitamin D insufficient, which is like
between that 20 and 30 range. And so you have this risk factor

(03:09:06):
where, you know, half the population is either vitamin D
deficiency or insufficient, and it can increase your risk of,
you know, having a poor COVID outcome by sixfold and increase
the risk of dying up to fifteenfold.
And, and to give you a comparison, if you're the risk
factor for if you're over 60 is really only about ninefold.

(03:09:27):
So this is a worse risk factor, something that we have control
over compared to being old, right?
That's incredible. And you talk about this, I'm
sure extensively in the book. So if, if vitamin D is one of
the elements that we're missing and I know we can get it from
the sun, correct. Is that partially what your
prescription would be that or give us that number again you
gave us and then the way to measure it was it, what was the

(03:09:49):
number? Yeah.
So typically most vitamin D deficiency is less than 20,
insufficiency is between 20 and 30, and then sufficiency is
above 30. And what is that range 30?
What are the units or how do youmeasure?
Nanograms. It's nanograms.
So typically if you go to Whole Foods, for example, or you go
to, you know, your health food store, what would be a way to is

(03:10:12):
that typically what they put on the bottles just to educate
everyone? Typically they do.
They've actually switched from international units to
micrograms on the potential bottle.
So the bottle won't tell you, you know your your blood level,
so to speak. Your doctor typically works with
you on how to what dose to get you up to that type of level.
Got it, got it. So to end on this note, I feel

(03:10:36):
like people need to know how to stay in touch with you on social
media, your website. Would you mind sharing how
people can stay at, stay connected to and, and we're
online, you're located so peoplecan hopefully follow a lot of
what you do and, and subscribe to your newsletter and things
like that. Yeah, so I'm typically most
active on Instagram and Twitter,which is at Doctor James Dinek,
which is DINIC, or my website isDoctor James dinek.com.

(03:11:01):
And Amazon has, you know, the salt fix and the immunity fix
and all. I love it.
I love it and I know you've heard in other books as well,
but what would you say for 20/21?
Is one of your goals with all that we have in front of us in
the sense of of a world where weare not healthy, we're not well,
and obviously there's so many things we need to embrace, I
feel like. Is there a message you want to

(03:11:22):
share with anyone as we wrap up here?
That would be. That the the.
I would hope that the pep talk or the motivation, because I
feel like we have a lot of power, we have a lot of control.
As you said, we can modify and can't modify our age.
We can't maybe change what the world is doing, but we can
change what we do to some degree.
What would you share to give someone a little push right now?
Because I feel like we're at a point right now where they can,

(03:11:45):
they can get a book and get one of your books.
Hopefully both, but they can also also do something different
with what they're eating and what they're doing right.
Right. And that's exactly the message
of the book is that you are in control of your health.
There are things that you can doto support your own immune
systems. And ultimately we're going to
have other viruses that we have to deal with in this world,

(03:12:06):
right? Even if we get a vaccine and
it's your own health, that's notonly going to determine how well
you can fight other viruses, butthe leading causes of death in
the US are cardiovascular disease, cancer, type 2
diabetes, obesity. That is primarily driven through
diet and lifestyle. And so we can't lose sight of of
those leading killers because right now we do have a spike in,

(03:12:29):
you know, doubts from COVID. We got to we got to look at the
whole picture. And ultimately, you are in
control of what goes in your mouth and not your exercise and
things like that. Thanks for having me, Jorge.
Oh, you bet my my friend. Thank you.

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SALT: The Missing Weight Loss Key | Dr. James DiNicolantonio Reveals the Truth

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