November 19, 2024 • 41 mins
How do you earn a seat at the decision-making table? In this episode, Nicole Jansen sits down with Jenny Mitchell, an inspiring leader from Ottawa, Canada. Jenny is the Chief Visionary Officer at Chavender.com, author of Embracing Ambition, and host of the Underdog Leadership Podcast.
Committed to nurturing the next generation of leaders, Jenny works closely with not-for-profit leaders to change the world one mission at a time. She is a fundraising professional, as well as an executive coach passionate about helping aspiring women overcome hardship, stereotyping, typecasting, and debilitating self-doubt to step into the best version of themselves as leaders.
Join us as we explore the keys to overcoming obstacles, embracing ambition from a place of inner fullness, understanding personal strengths, and transforming discomfort into growth. We also tackle the intricacies of leadership, fundraising for non-profits, and the essential qualities that empower individuals to transition from supportive roles to primary leadership positions.
What We Discuss in this Episode
- Jenny’s path to leadership and empowerment
- What does it mean to embrace ambition
- How discomfort and fear can turn into growth and leadership
- How to move from "number two" to "number one" positions in your career
- Fundraising insights for non-profit leaders
- Aligning donors' values with your fundraising cause
- The role of celebration within charitable organizations
- How understanding personal assumptions and biases can improve leadership
Key Takeaways
Growth often comes from stepping outside of comfort zones and facing fears head-on.
Approach your goals with a sense of inner worth and fullness rather than seeking external validation.
Effective fundraising involves aligning donors' values with the cause and communicating a transformative vision.
Recognizing and celebrating successes within organizations helps maintain motivation and community spirit.
Seek clear, constructive feedback from peers to gain valuable perspectives on personal growth.
Demonstrate self-awareness, courage, and the ability to act on feedback for personal leadership.
Thriving in supportive roles is equally important and can be a path to discovering one's strengths.
Knowing your worth at the start of each day fosters a sense of abundance and empowerment.
Challenge personal assumptions and biases to improve leadership and create inclusive environments.
.css-j9qmi7{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-direction:row;-ms-flex-direction:row;flex-direction:row;font-weight:700;margin-bottom:1rem;margin-top:2.8rem;width:100%;-webkit-box-pack:start;-ms-flex-pack:start;-webkit-justify-content:start;justify-content:start;padding-left:5rem;}@media only screen and (max-width: 599px){.css-j9qmi7{padding-left:0;-webkit-box-pack:center;-ms-flex-pack:center;-webkit-justify-content:center;justify-content:center;}}.css-j9qmi7 svg{fill:#27292D;}.css-j9qmi7 .eagfbvw0{-webkit-align-items:center;-webkit-box-align:center;-ms-flex-align:center;align-items:center;color:#27292D;}Mark as PlayedTranscript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
So how do you earn a seat at the decision making table? Our guest today
is Jenny Mitchell. She is, based in Ottawa, Canada. So
another fellow Canadian. I'm excited to have her here.
She is the chief visionary officer atchavender.com,
and she is the author of Embracing Ambition and the
host of the Underdog Leadership podcast. You can check that
(00:25):
out if you're interested in learning more about, what she's
up to there, that's a great place to do that. She is committed
to nurturing the next generation of leaders and she works
very closely with not for profit leaders to change the world one mission at a
time. And so we're gonna talk about a few different topics here. Her
book, Embracing Ambition.
(00:48):
And it's a wonderful book with stories of women who have
overcome adversity and gotten a seat at the table.
And we're also gonna talk about fundraising because she's a fundraising professional
and lots of good things to, to come here. So Jenny, welcome to the leaders
transformation. We're glad you're here. Thanks for having me and delighted
to, open up this conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Well, before we
(01:11):
do that, let's do a shout out to Smith Publicity.
Thank you for, for the introduction. Because you know
what? This podcast yeah. Like this podcast would
not be what it is without all of the amazing
booking agents and friends and past
guests that send me amazing guests. And certainly we can't
(01:33):
interview everyone on this show, but, every once in a while we get
to to do that. And, so, yeah. Thank
you. Yeah. Thank you to them. And I'm gonna throw a question back to you,
Nicole, right away. You know, what was it about what I what we
put out or proposed to you that really resonated with you? I think that might
be a great anchor point for our conversation. Yeah. That's
(01:55):
great. Great point. Thanks for, turning that around. You're a good host.
She's got her own podcast. Can you tell? Well, so the reason
why was because of the approach that you were taking
to women, in your book,
and they're getting a seat at the table, not from a
position which some do, a lot
(02:18):
do, unfortunately, is that victim, but it's really
more from an empowerment standpoint, from a standpoint of
how do you, what, what do you need to do in the world that we
live in to get a seat at the table, to have your voice
heard? And it kind of goes for women and it also goes for
men. And so I liked the approach that you had there. And of course then
(02:39):
the fundraising as well. We do have nonprofits that are
listening, leaders that are listening and saying, how do I raise
funds for the projects that are that are near and dear to my
heart? And so, you know, getting that information,
insight from you as as somebody who has a lot of experience in the area,
I think is gonna be good. So I love that because I think when I
(03:01):
pull out of there and I know I'm gonna guess that your first question is
gonna be about leadership. And so I'm just gonna take us there if you don't
mind. And, what I wanna pick up out of there is
I don't really I'm not so interested in the adversity or the
obstacle, but I get very interested in how you
overcame it, what you learned, and where you're going with that knowledge. Yes.
(03:23):
And so that I think is to me one of the
tenets of the future leadership that we need more of. And so when when people
ask me, you know, tell me about your leadership style or tell me what's most
important to you. There are so many leadership coaches. Let's
just say that there are so many people with their own proprietary x y
z's. Who I wanna be a beacon for is
(03:45):
the people who have, my podcast is called
Underdog Leadership and some people go, oh, underdog. I'm not sure. And I say, well,
hold on a minute. Have you ever had an experience where you weren't the
most unlikely candidate? You were the one that was least
disposed to get that role and you had to
overcome something within you, I note, within you
(04:07):
to be seen differently or to be perceived differently or to
show up with your strengths. You haven't changed, Nicole. I just wanna be clear. We're
not talking about changing who you are. We're talking about picking and
choosing the pieces of you that you bring forward to get
that that leadership position. Because once you are
there, you can make the change happen for all those
(04:28):
other, sidelined, maligned,
challenged people that might might have not be the typical subjects
for leadership. That's what I wanna talk about. Love it. I love
it. So why is this such a passion for you? Where did this start for
you? It's a great question. So,
you know, I think I can go back to, the world when
(04:51):
I was little. I remember sitting in the back seat of a car looking out
the window and having two thoughts at the same time. Green,
ugly green. Remember those olive green, really wide, no seat belts, no
nothing, Nicole. Yeah. You're looking at the window and you see these cars going by
and you think, wow, the world is really really big place.
I didn't know it was that big. And 2, will I have time to meet
(05:13):
them all? Like a very people centered approach, very
focused on people, but realizing very quickly that the world makes
it very hard for us. High school is not a pleasant place
for anybody. And I remember feeling very isolated and very lonely and
very different. Now the irony is that I've come back to that
place and talked to other colleagues and everybody felt different. Like, I
(05:35):
don't know anybody who felt perfectly normal and, you
know, in high school. And so I feel like we've been sold this bill of
goods about the way the world is supposed to be. Maybe we that place
of feeling uncomfortable is the place we need to get comfortable
in so that we can grow into the next
phase of ourselves. So I resonate with the underdog.
(05:57):
I resonate with the person that has struggled to learn
how to use their voice. Good Canadians. We don't like
conflict. You know, good girl. Stay in your lane. Don't be too
bossy. Don't make too much noise. Definitely resonate with that,
Nicole. And I found my own way through it that's worked for me,
and I keep continue to learn from others about how they do it.
(06:19):
And I'd love to hear also hear how you've done that over the years too.
You know it's interesting because you you right out of the gate you're you know
for very people centered and focused on that and
and that says just says so much about who you are and what's important to
you. For me, I was like the doer. I was the loner
and I was a bit of an outsider, even though I
(06:42):
could get along with everyone. I was kind of the outside
observer watching what was happening. And I remember being
very introverted actually. And,
shy. Like literally being 3 years old, my mom saying, you know, somebody
saying, you know, what's wrong with her? It's like, oh, because I was hiding behind
her and saw, she's just shy. And I remember that. And
(07:03):
I owned that. And so when I got into business,
when I was in my teens and I said, this is what I wanna do,
I wanna be in business for myself. I wanna, you know, my parents
were entrepreneurs already. And so I was kind of in that environment. I wanted to
be my own boss. I wanna have freedom and all that thing, all those things.
It occurred to me that I was going to have to talk to some people
(07:25):
because it was not going to work otherwise. And so that's when I
started getting out of my shell and starting to articulate,
you know, communicate. And it was kind of messy in the beginning.
And then it was, you know, I was 16 years old, right? I'm trying to
sell fax machines door to door, right? In Markham, Ontario,
and you know, in the industrial areas. And it was like, oh honey,
(07:48):
that's just so, that's so cute. That's cute. Right?
$25100 fax machines back, back in the day. And that's
1988. And so who's going to give a 16 year old
$2,500 Right? And, and trust
that she's going to bring back a fax machine in a week.
(08:09):
So it was tough. And then I started selling, you know, different things. I realized
very quickly I wasn't interested in fax machines, but it was the only thing I
could find that I had gotten a line on wholesale. I could buy retail.
Sell buy wholesale and sell retail and make a profit.
And as I continued on, I realized very quickly
that it was I could complain about how it
(08:32):
was, or I could say,
how am I going to show up so
that they're going to listen to me? I got more propositions for
dinner and dates than I did sales in the beginning.
And I was like, okay, so how do I get them to
listen to me and take me seriously? What do I need to change in
(08:55):
me to do that? And that was, and, and
that was very empowering for me because over time,
they started to listen. Maybe they looked at me and went, oh,
she's young. Right? Now she's 20 to now she's 24,
25, 26. But then I'd open my mouth and they're
like, oh, dang. She knows, she's gonna she knows a few things.
(09:18):
And that's how I earned the seat at the table. Right? And
so that's why this is so important because I think so many of us, and
yes, I am Canadian and polite. I am also very
driven and results, you know, oriented. And so I was like, how
do we get the result? Right. So very tenacious as one of
my mentors says, my middle name is, Tenacity.
(09:41):
And so, yeah, I think that there's a lot of women that we wait
and men both for sure that we wait for somebody
to open the door for us. We wait for that person to give
us the opportunity. They're not giving me the opportunity. And it's like,
well, if I would wait for the opportunity, I'd
still be waiting. Yeah. And when you're pushing through
(10:03):
that boundary, that that political piece in
you, it'll feel very uncomfortable. You may feel like you're holding
your breath. You may feel like there's a tight knot in your stomach. The
but those are signals from your body. They that your
body wants to keep you safe. And one of the things I always say to
my clients is, you know, that it's okay to honor, say thank you
(10:25):
very much, you know, that little voice, but I'm gonna do it anyway. Right? Oh,
yeah. And here's something you you picked up on. I'm gonna phrase a different way.
The obstacle is the way. That's right. So many of us hit
the obstacle and run away. And I do worry about our our young our next
generations with this. I we could have a sidebar about that one. Because
adversity is is important. Not adversity that breaks you
(10:48):
down and gives you a mental health, challenge, but
adversity where you have to change the way you're doing things in order to
get to where you wanna go. Yes. And so taking a hard look at
that obstacle, I can imagine you at 23 going, okay.
It seems to me if I do a quick analysis, I'm doing better with
this profile. I get in when I have something that's only 2
(11:10):
minutes long like that analysis on the moment and adjusting,
and I would call this testing or trying
things out is so powerful versus
hurt, shame, embarrassment, which really,
cuts you off at the knees, Nicole. Yeah. Absolutely. And you
know what? Adversity and obstacles is how we
(11:32):
grow. If you're gonna, if you wanna build muscle and you
go to the gym and all you do is, you know, 3 pound weights
and that's all you're not, it'll get you to that. If you've
never lifted £3. Okay. There's some, maybe a little bit
of resistance there or you're a kid and one thing. But once you get to
the point where you are growing and that's that you need
(11:54):
more, right? Like the reward for overcoming
one challenge is another challenge in another
opportunity. And you can see it as an obstacle, or you can see it
as an opportunity. I saw it as an opportunity. And yes,
at some point I looked at it and said, you know, it's
interesting because I had, what was my obstacle
(12:16):
became my opportunity. That's right. Because now I've got like,
you got a 25 year old girl who's coming in and she knows her
stuff. And it's like, dang. Okay. I
started getting job offers. Yeah. People were like, I need you
on my team. Yeah. And you stand out. You stand
out. So the very thing that could have stopped me is the very thing that
(12:38):
became my advantage later on. Yeah. I love that. So so think
about leadership when you asked me that question earlier. I think there's an
element to leadership of okay. We all know the know
yourself, you know, self awareness blah blah blah, but it's more than
that. It's accepting the fact that you are, and I love this
quote, a spiritual being having a human experience.
(13:00):
Yes. Right? And so if you trust in your own energy and
if you can slightly distance yourself from what's happening
to you, like Yeah. Step out. Yeah. That like one
second pause between the action, what happens and how you
react. To me that it really is self leadership,
which is the most important component of any kind of other leadership. And
(13:23):
it just when you think you've got it, it's it's very nebulous. It moves
again, Nicole, because it is a continuous learning journey, and I would say the
word is deepening into rather than
expansion of. It's it's more it's yes and.
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. So tell us about your book, Embracing
Emission. How did that come to be? Yeah. So very simply,
(13:45):
I was an academic. I have many, many degrees. My former life, I was a
classical musician, and, I had written a dissertation, so I had
a doctor degree, so I knew I could write. And as an academic,
the highlight of your world is writing a book. It's the ultimate,
you know, Mount Everest. And every time I started thinking about writing this
book, I thought me by myself writing about
(14:08):
me, boring, like, truly. Right? Because as
we said, I am a people person. I like, right away, even in this interview,
you know, I wanna have a dialogue. I wanna know what you think. I wanna
I wanna create together. So this is where I said, what if I
took I had heard the research by, doctor Megan
Rabine who has the the wrote her paper on these
(14:29):
5 pillars that are outlined in the book. The 5 pillars that women
will experience in their journey to the c suite.
And I thought, what if I could marry the research with my love
of people and these first person stories? If I could inspire 12 women
to come on this journey with me and write, not what it not the
official version. Right? But the what it felt like to lead
(14:51):
as a woman version and invite them to be
transparent, vulnerable, and share their story as an
arc. And then I took those stories, those 12 stories, and fit them into
the pillars. So what you find in the book, Nicole and and to all of
our listeners is a description of the pillar. So what the experience
is based on the research, and then you get these beautiful
(15:13):
colored stories about what it feels like to lead. And
then at the end, there's some reflection questions. So that the idea that when you
interact with the information and you discuss it with girlfriends and you
have these conversations, it doesn't have the same power over you that it did
before. So that's how the book came to be. We wrote it
on a weekend in Toronto together, which is also very
(15:35):
unique. So So let me explain that we all learned about storytelling.
We had a fantastic editor that walked us through. But when we arrived
Saturday, we had kernels of ideas. We workshopped with
each other, which because we had a 1,000,000 stories. Right? Everybody in in
leadership has stories, but which one would feel the most
authentic and organic? We workshop them. And then by Sunday when we
(15:58):
left, we had the story mapped out. We may not have had it written,
and then we supported each other through that journey. And I think that has been
the most powerful part of this book. This is not this is more than just
a book. To me, this is like a way of operating in the
world. And I think that the way it was done could be applied
to so many other institutions and organizations, entrepreneurs.
(16:19):
I think they could bring this example to their teams. It's a
framework that has a lot of, flexibility
to it, and you learn so much more about people when you
do it this way. Than I was born in 1972 and
my parents were from here and, you know, that sort of litany of check
boxes Yeah. If you will. Yeah. Well, I was actually
(16:41):
born in 1972, but Me me too. Just saying. Oh,
really? So we're the same age. That's funny. Figured.
Yeah. Well, so, yeah. And I loved, I loved that.
And I loved the diversity in the book as well. You know, women talking
about their different experiences, different perspectives
on what it meant for them to, to
(17:04):
embrace ambition, to be willing to say, Hey, this
is what I've always dreamed of doing, being the underdog.
Some of the stories, like I think of the one lady who was from Nigeria
and how somebody, I just, I, I keep that stuck. It gets stuck in my
brain. Somebody said to her, how do you like it here? And she's
like, what? Cause she thought she was a refugee and she's like, I'm
(17:27):
Canadian. And I was thinking about that.
And it's like, we all have it's hard for you and
I maybe to relate to that experience. But
it's, it's, you know, it's
I just, as I said, I just, you, you, when you look and you step
into somebody else's shoes and you start to see that
(17:50):
what their experience has been, that's not to make them
a victim though, is to just recognize,
wow, we have, we have such a narrow view and how can
we expand our view and see the value and see
even beyond that, even see how
we're showing up for others
(18:12):
and in others' lives, how we're perceived in other
people's lives. People who have good intentions,
people that are looking to be successful in life
and make a difference and bring value and so forth. How are we
showing up for them? And that just really struck out for me, kind of
like being on the opposite side of these stories
(18:34):
and saying, wow, like Well, of
course, it's just How can I ensure that I'm not that person, that I'm the
person that's empowering them? Yeah. And that was her name was Onomay.
She's the first story in the book. And, she one of the things that she
said to me that I mean, there were many things that she said that really
stuck with me. One was I never thought of myself as black until I came
to Canada. So interesting because we define her that
(18:58):
way. And just for all of our listeners, you know, I'm not
a DEI specialist. I'm I I hope I'm working hard to be a
better ally, and this book has sort of prompted me to think about some things.
But, you know, we often make assumptions that are
not, not really grounded in a fact or
truth. We just do these things, and we must be
(19:20):
mindful of that. I think the most important part is just to ask
ourselves, you know, just check ourselves.
You know, you're going up to the person and saying that the story she talked
about was somebody always mistaking her for the the waiter. Oh my
gosh, Nicole. Right? Or the one where she gets announced,
congratulations. You have this new role, our BIPOC CEO. And it's like, you
(19:42):
take away all of her sovereignty, all of her work
by labeling her as such that she's only BIPOC.
And the last thing I'll say is that understanding
what they symbolize to their communities when she's making
decisions, she represents all women of color when she's making
those choices. So if she succeeds, great. But if she fails,
(20:05):
everybody's watching. And so I'm learning more and more. We talk
about women and men and how, you know, we men make
assumptions, I think, sometimes about us. I also think that we
are learning how to be more open with
our perceptions of leadership. Women tend to be
more collaborative. They tend to ask for more feedback. That does not have to
(20:28):
be a a lack of strength or a lack of confidence.
But if you've never seen it happen that way before, Nicole, if you've never seen
a truly collaborative leader, you can say, oh my god. What she doesn't know what
she's doing. Right? So taking that time to
soften that yoke of leadership. I'm not asking you
to be less clear. I'm not asking women to be, less decisive.
(20:49):
That's not my point. But we can have different influences, and we
need masculine and feminine. We can't survive with just go
go go, and we can't survive just with, sort of
that warm, compassionate. We need actually
in an ideal world, we need both and we need them to exist.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's not the either or it's not the
(21:11):
either, or, and, you know, recently I was talking to somebody about this feminine
energy, masculine energy, and we both have, we all have
both. And it's how we use that in the balance. And he was talking
about the value of the feminine energy, being that container,
you know, in, in that, in, and being the one that kind of creates that
container for the masculine drive, you know, in that. And I thought that
(21:34):
was a really great example. And yeah, you know what? I
guess maybe, I mean, I'm from Canada, I'm from Toronto. So Toronto was
very multi cultural and it has always baffled
me that we make and that's, I'll say that, and then we can move on
to other things. But, it's always
baffled me how we judge somebody
(21:57):
by their the cover of them, like the color of their skin.
Coming from Toronto and actually moving to LA,
I was actually quite shocked
at how much, prejudice and
racism was actually going on. And I don't mean that again from a victim
standpoint. It was an observation and it actually was me being the other
(22:19):
side because of where we moved to. And I went everybody's
looking at me like, what are you doing here? And I'm like, what? Like,
what do you mean? What am I doing here? You know? And and so
it's, it's something that we we get to work on. And as
leaders Mhmm. We get to, you know, look
at how can we empower people? How can we
(22:43):
create environments for them to thrive and
for the best version of them to show up? How do we do that and
not be, allow our biases and our assumptions
to get in the way of that. Yeah. Sandboxes. What does
your sandbox look like? Who's in your sandbox? How do we treat the
people in your sandbox? You know, I I I love this
(23:06):
discussion. And and just to tie it back to the book, you know,
ambition means different things to different women. That's another thing I wanna
highlight is that, you know, this this masculine word ambition, we're kind of reclaiming
it with this title, embracing ambition, and it's intentional. Right?
Embracing warms it up. It it softens it. So many people
have have mentioned the title to me and granted I workshop this thing,
(23:28):
Nicole. Like, I I did test groups. I did marketing.
Fascinating what people like and what people don't like in titles. And
I wanted it to be that idea. We can reclaim it for what what we
want. It doesn't have to be the CEO of x y
z, but if that's what you desire, then let's build you a path to
get there. But being ambitious for your own sake
(23:50):
instead of for your race's sake, for your society's sake, for your
parents' sake, for your kids' sake, I mean, to truly
internalize that and, you know, as a professional coach and something I do a lot
of the time, we're often triggered by external stuff, you know, the
medals and the validation and the awards and the accolades. But
that intrinsic motivation, when you tap into it and you wanna do
(24:12):
it because you're genuinely curious and you genuinely
have a passion for something, it's a game changer because suddenly you
find the energy and the flow to make it all happen. And, that's
what I'd like more of from everybody because, you know, the AI is
gonna change a lot of things, but what it's not gonna change is human
interaction, human connection, all of those mirror neurons that are you and I
(24:35):
are having a heyday with right now on Zoom because we're connecting over
something that's meaningful. That's not going anywhere anytime soon, so
we might as well get really comfy being humans with
all the joys and the pitfalls that that comes with. Yeah,
absolutely. So let's talk about, I wanna shift
gears and I promise that we would talk about fundraising. And
(24:57):
I think this is a, it seems like a segue. And yet at the same
time, again, we're talking about environments. We're talking about
okay. So we have charities that have missions Yep.
That they want to put forth. They got the same challenge,
perception. Right? How do you connect to
your audience, the right people? How do you even,
(25:19):
you know, I know we were talking about, about what's the difference between fundraising and
capital funding? Mhmm. Why do people not
repeatedly donate? They might donate once, but they don't come
back. Yep. So, again, this is all perception. This is all,
like, what where do we start with that? Like, if
let's say somebody's out there and they they have a charity or they have some
(25:41):
kind of initiative, even if it's not a formal, you know, charity
or it's a church or whatever, and they're saying, we wanna we've
got a heart for this. Right? We wanna we wanna make this happen, this ambition
that we have. There's actually a book out there called holy ambition. The
ambition is not bad, right? It's like holy ambition. It's like, what is that
thing that you say? You know, this is, this is what I'm called to do.
(26:03):
This is what I'm the injustice that I wanna, I wanna solve
the, the gap that I wanna fill. Yeah. And they need some funds
to be able to do that. Yeah. So where do they begin? Yeah. And, you
know, there is a lot of parallels between fund development and,
capital raising capital for entrepreneurs. So for your entrepreneur listeners, I'd love for you to
think about how this relates to your world as you're raising capital.
(26:25):
It always starts with an idea, a vision of how the world's better.
Or in your case, like you mentioned, an injustice, something that's wrong that you feel
that you can you can address or fix. Or, you know, maybe it's not even
fixed. Maybe it's shift or, transform Transform.
Transform. Thank you. Wait. Yo. Great. There you go. There you go.
Transform. So, I think what we do a
(26:47):
lot of as soon as money comes into play, a lot of people get
really weird because it's taboo. There's
beliefs in there. There's how you were raised around your kitchen table.
Fun fact, if you're ever looking for a very engaging dinner party,
invite 2 other friends, 2 other couple friends, if you're if you have a
partner, and ask them what they learned around about money around the
(27:10):
kitchen table when they were kids. Because you think you know these
people, and then when you hear those deep deep rooted values, it's
fascinating what comes up. So money is
fundamental, and so that's part a. I
think a lot of the time we think of charity as a less than, and
it really inhibits us when we're out there asking for a cause.
(27:32):
So the old version of charity was the tin cup mentality. Please give us
money. Right? Yeah. For us. You know, Salvation Army,
using an example that's in Canada and the States, they worked very hard on
moving from a tin cup mentality to a a leg
up rather than a handout. And so you are going to have to
cast a vision and inspire people what will
(27:55):
be different when they make that gift. And sometimes I find people fixate
on the amount or the thing, not the bigger vision of what's going on.
So let me give an example. You want
to so that every woman in California can have access
right now. We're talking a lot about, menstrual products and all those kinds of things.
(28:15):
What values, what beliefs does the person that you're talking to
hold about that subject? So you may not go in with with menstrual
products. We may go in with how do you feel about humans? How do you
feel about equality and dignity? How do you tell me more about
your experiences as a person growing up in your community.
You know? So finding that equity, equality, and aligning
(28:37):
the beliefs, Nicole, before you move into the money part. Because a lot of the
time, we move quickly to the money, and it ends up with sort of a
bit of a, what's the word, a bit of a catalyst.
Because people people tend to not like when,
Nicole, I have this great idea. I know I know that you should come with
me. It's gonna be fantastic. I've got it all mapped out. I just need your
(28:58):
money. Yeah. Like, nobody wants to do that. It's like sales. Right? You have to
bring them along the journey. So that's part a. I think having the right people
on the team is another important. So the case, what we would use the case,
the language, why are we doing this, what's important. Who's on the
team? I think it's important to think carefully and thoughtfully and bring people
along. Volunteers and emotional,
(29:19):
enthusiasm is gonna matter a lot. So, you cannot
push boulders up a hill without the right people pushing those boulders. Yeah. And then
I think the the piece that most people miss is the celebration and the community
piece. I think we often sort of collapse in a heap after the event, and
we don't actually get the chance to do the the human work of connecting and
thanking and all those good things. So those are, like, my
(29:41):
high level examples. I would finally close with
charity, and I'm people are not gonna like to hear this, but charity is a
business. It has inputs and outputs. It has revenue. It has
expenses. Unfortunately, the charitable
world lives under the shadow of
overhead costs and the shadow of how much does your CEO get paid and
(30:02):
the shadow that we're doing, you know, and for your community, you know,
God's work and that we shouldn't get paid a lot, that we shouldn't
have needs and all those good stuff. I say,
I say forget it. I say, don't ask what things are costing at
the charity. I ask Yeah. Ask what the return on investment is
like. When you make an investment in fund development and in marketing, those are the
(30:26):
two places you should expect a return on the other side. And so for my
business folks that are sitting on boards, because I'm sure lots of them out there
are are experiencing this right now, Rather than spending all that time
on the expense sheet and cutting things back, how can you look at the revenue
and say, what's my part in this? How can I amplify this voice? How can
I make better introductions and community to
(30:48):
get this message of this mission out to more people?
And overhead and cost to raise a dollar are one
important metric, but they are not the be all and the end all, Nicole. That's
all. I'll hold it there. Do you hear my passion? I hope. Well,
and I love that you just, as you unpack that, you just laid
out, the, the, the formula or the plan for that.
(31:10):
And, you know, I wrote down this like, why, who,
and then the celebration right. Of, of that. And I think that's
so important. Celebrating all wins. I learned that from one of my mentors is celebrating
all the wins because otherwise we just keep going onto the next thing and the
next thing and the next thing. And in spiritually, you
mentioned about earlier, it's like spiritually, our spirit goes like, wow,
(31:32):
I don't do this. Yeah. I never get rewarded. You know, it's
just same old, same old. My reward is more work. I know. Next
thing. And so I think that's, that's really important. And when you said about
starting with the why, you know, I, I, and,
I'm doing this exciting thing. I think about somebody who reached out to me on
Facebook and I've had lots of people I'm sure you have too, you know, that
(31:54):
reach out and ask for money, but it's like, well, I'm doing
this thing and you should support me in it.
Right. Right. And I'm like, okay.
So not that it's not a good thing to do,
but it's not necessarily where my priority is right now. It's
not to say that I'm not donating and supporting
(32:17):
things. It's just I'm deciding, you know, and so people
can, you know, feel bad or make you feel
bad because you're not you're not supporting that thing because they
are so passionate about it and it is meaningful
and it's a yes. And I look at it and say, okay, when I say
yes to this, I'm also saying no to all these other things. And
(32:39):
so what am I saying yes to? And what am I choosing to say
no to? Or what do I it's and like, to me, it's like, I feel
like there's a there's a sense of calling. Right? It's like, I feel a
call. I test I I check-in. It's like, am I supposed to do that? Or
am I not sometimes it sounds unreasonable. It's like, I don't know why I'm doing
this, but I'm supporting this. Yeah. So I wanna talk about the
(33:00):
passion blindness because you just described it so well when you're so
pumped about something and you think you've got the best. And I would say our
capital folks are are, our venture capitalists are the same. Right? Same
thing. Entrepreneurs are guilty of this. Blinds to
all the pitfalls. Right? And sort of nobody wants to be convinced
to give money. Yeah. People wanna come along with you on the
(33:21):
journey. Yeah. And so the language and the way you set it up and make
no bones about it. What's in it for me? That is
part of the story. I mean, obviously, venture capital is what's in it for me
as a return on investment. But even if it's a charitable thing, you know, they
can give to a 1000000 different places. So how are you setting yourself
up to align with what they already believe is a yes and.
(33:43):
Right? Yes. And show them that they can make that difference through
your organization. So this is an egoless experience. There's
not a lot of ego in, fund development in my
experience. It's much more about a partnership. It's so much more
about listening. People think that fundraisers are snake oil, you know, snake
they they convince people of things. That's not it at all. I'm
(34:06):
always surprised. We do a heck of a lot of listening. We do a a
lot of alignment check-in, and we're not looking for
money. We're looking for fit. And Yeah. People don't spend
the time doing that, unfortunately. There are a whole bunch of other components.
Brand comes in. You know? Are they trustworthy? We talk about hygiene
issues in my world. So, you know, if before Nicole's gonna give me money, it's
(34:28):
just to know that I'm trustworthy, just to have know that my financially, I'm gonna
be stable. Please, please, please, no definite deficit financing.
Nobody wants to give money to a charity to pull it out of a hole.
We are always forward thinking. So why now?
Why me? Why are you talking to me? What is it about me? And then,
I think what's changed? So for a lot of folks, you're gonna
(34:50):
have to if you're bringing in inviting someone to make a big investment
for transformational mission shift, you
better be able to tell me why you're asking for it now. Well, it's because,
you know, music in the schools is no longer available. We're seeing these trends with
kids. Like, give me data, but also tell me stories
and tell me how people's lives can be changed and bring
(35:12):
me along a story arc. And don't expect me to give you I
always say, you know, it's a bit like sales. The first gift is the smallest
gift. Right? Mhmm. Like, sometimes there's the that fine. I'll give you some
money to go away gift. But if you it's small
slow yeses and fast nos, you know,
versus fast nos. Well and it is it is like sales.
(35:35):
When you think about people are not, they don't want to be sold.
They want, they have a problem that they need to solve. They have
a need they're looking to fill. There's there's a
reason why they would buy something and it's not just to
convince you or have you go away and say, here, let me give you some
money. You know, I'll buy your thing. And then they regret it later. Who
(35:57):
wants that? Then you might get a transaction, but you you'll get a user, but
you won't get a customer. You won't get long term.
Yep. Client value in that. And so, this is
so good. So Jenny, tell us a little bit more about like what you do.
We've talked about your book. You mentioned about you also coach, you know,
obviously you have expertise in fundraising. Tell us a little bit more about what
(36:19):
you do and the clients that you work with. Thank you for this platform because
I, I, I sort of listen to you list off those things. I'm like, God,
I've done a lot of variety of things, but there is a thread, Nicole.
So the thread is meaningful connections. The thread is conversations
that matter. And so I can trace that thread
through all of my work. And where I've landed is,
(36:42):
supporting and elevating women's voices. What I talk about is
helping number twos become number ones in work and life. So I'm no
longer interested in just work coaching. I really wanna be full
body coaching. I wanna in a sense that I don't think you can I haven't
met anybody yet who is 1 person at work and 1 person at home?
And so all of the pieces that I've been adding to my toolkit, be it
(37:04):
breath work, be it, vestibular system work,
be it, you know, positive affirmations. I mean, I've I
am a huge book reader. I love all that stuff. And what I'd
like to do is help those number twos
become who they wanna be. And the way that is through
coaching. It's been my best experience. So I work 1 on 1 with folks.
(37:26):
Most of my folks come from corporate. That tends to be my thread. And
then I also work in group programs. So I have a program called the penthouse,
which is for aspiring women leaders where we have, 12
months together where we go through self, others,
team, and vision. Those are sort of my 4 big buckets, and,
we cocreate that space together. So just like just
(37:49):
like at the podcast where I immediately flipped it to you, I hate talking
heads. I wanna be in dialogue and conversation with people.
And so the mastermind, framework really works well. Whereas I
introduce topics, I absolutely facilitate and I guide.
But I actually believe very strongly in the the tentative executive
coaching or any coaching is that the coachee is comes already
(38:12):
whole. We're not here with people. Right? We're here
to elevate, ask good questions, challenge,
inspire to provoke a new sense
of a new lens, a new sense of awareness, a new perspective. Because
when your perspective changes, the world around you changes with it.
Yeah. And that I think is is probably the most profound and powerful
(38:33):
thing I could do with with my life. Yeah. I
love that. I love that. And when you talk about number
twos becoming number ones, as we wrap up
here Yeah. What is if there is a
obviously Yeah. Going to your website, learning more about your
programs, and and participating in your next program
(38:55):
that you've got launching, the mastermind for the 12
months. What is one thing that if
I'm number 2 Mhmm. Has
been kind of in line of succession and
maybe delayed, and they feel like,
I don't know how to get from here to there. What is the one thing
(39:17):
that you would say for them just a starting point to to
do to be to set themselves up to be that number 1?
Love the question. Deep
breath. Ask for genuine feedback.
And what I often find is that, unfortunately,
number twos are pigeonholed because they do such a good job that the
(39:41):
number one doesn't really want them to move anywhere. Right. So that's
one of the experiences you have. Right? The other thing I often say
is never, please, never put yourself in a position where someone
you put your career in somebody else's hands. And I see a lot of that
in the world where people say, well, my number one will take care of me.
So what I mean by feedback is, going to
(40:03):
your direct report and saying, in the pursuit of my
learning, I've identified some areas. So people don't like, can
you give me feedback blank. Right? It doesn't work. I've identified some specific
areas that I would like to work on in my growth, and you may have
made some notes for I was going for in 4 lines, 4
questions, and I'd like to take the time with you to kind of unpack some
(40:25):
of those things. Would that be something you would you would be willing to do
at our next 101? Now do you hear that? The permission based, would that be
something? So asking permission, first of all. And when we
get into that meeting, some folks, you have to know your boss. Do they like
to have things in advance? Do they like to speak off the cuff? One of
the things I found is if you can ask them to ask for a scale.
(40:46):
So some people are very uncomfortable receiving or giving
feedback. So if you say on a scale to 1 to 10, 10 being I
communicate most effectively with you and timely, where would you put me?
I find that really cuts to the chase, Nicole, as far as, like,
getting people to answer. Yeah. And then here's that's part a,
but part b is going to, a direct not
(41:07):
a direct report, but somebody who's on that same line and seeking
feedback. Not asking them to be a mentor or a sponsor, but what's
your perception of you of me? And could you please be as
as clear and as constructive as possible for me?
Because I think most people are quite taken aback by that, and it really
changes the energetic dynamic. I've been waiting
(41:30):
around. I've been sitting in my seat waiting for someone to anoint
me versus going after it in a very respectful not
necessarily this isn't an aggressive move. This is a and if
you want to, you can even let your boss know that you're doing
it. You'd be amazed how it changes energy when you take
responsibility for your own career, how people see you
(41:51):
differently. I have seen this time and time again, the internal
processing to make the decision to take coaching
or to take yourself seriously, suddenly the the the
playing field changes. The chair changes, Nicole, if you will. Yes.
Oh, I love that because that is about personal leadership. That
is about demonstrating it and it takes courage. It takes
(42:14):
awareness. It takes courage to be willing to even
receive that feedback. What are you gonna do with that feedback once you get it?
That is so good. Such great great advice. Jenny, I
really enjoyed this conversation, man. I I I it
went in directions that I didn't expect it to go. There's like that's why I
love these conversations where it's like you're just open to the possibility,
(42:37):
and it's been so good. We're gonna make sure, of course,
your book, a link to your book, Embracing Ambition, and
your podcast, Underdog Leadership, and your website, travinder.com,
is all in the show notes. Any final thoughts for our listeners
before we wrap up? I guess I
would say that you know
(42:59):
what you are looking for. Just sometimes you
have to get quiet, you have to get thoughtful,
and you have to get brave to find out what you really think
because you know what's best for you. I
I know you do. Yeah. That's so
good. You, when you, when you were talking about number twos and
(43:21):
number ones and how valuable number twos
are, even as we categorize number 1, number
2, I was, I was thinking about the fact
that sometimes we think our value is only
in a position of number being in number 1, then I'm
valuable. Yeah. But maybe it's realizing to what you were just saying
(43:43):
is maybe realizing that this is
the best position. This is where I thrive. So often, like,
I see that in sales where somebody is a really good
salesperson and then they promote them into
management and they fail miserably. Why? Because that's
not actually, that's a totally different set of skills.
(44:05):
And so, you know, in knowing what you really want, don't just take,
just don't chase that number one position because
you think that's what you need to do because that's what everybody else
assumes is the next role for you. You might be in number 2 and you
might love it. I know there's some people who are entrepreneurs. I believe
we're all entrepreneurs at heart, but some are more,
(44:28):
adept to being intrepreneurs, working within
companies, working within systems. I think of somebody
amazing, talented woman. She's a rock star.
And she said, you know what? I think I realized in myself that
I like working within a system, a structure, a team that's
already established, and then I can shine there. And so to
(44:51):
your point about just know who you are, know what you really
want you deep, deep inside, know that. And don't let anybody tell you that you
need to do something other than that. Just stay, you know, take the
feedback, take the feedback, but trust your trust,
your instincts. So yeah. So good. Thank you. I'm looking at your sign
behind you that says loved enough. You know? And it's that idea
(45:13):
that you start the day, you're already enough. Right?
Because I think even with this number 2 and number 1, we can imply through
those labels that they're that people are less than. And in
my experience, the more you show up with your cup already full
and that you can fill your own cup, which is something I'm still
working on, Nicole. I mean, I think we're all a work in progress. It gets
(45:35):
easier as you get older. But that knowing of of how you can
take care of yourself, that you are already enough, and that the
day at work is a bonus Yes. Which
finishes, and then it starts all over again. None of this sort of collapse into
a heap at 5 o'clock anymore, please. Like, life is too short and too
valuable for that. Let's let's let's embrace ambition.
(45:56):
I love how I did that. Let's embrace ambition every
day and and come from a place of of
a fullness, I guess, is the word or abundance is the word I'm looking for.
Yeah. So good. Alright. Well, I always
say leaders of transformation take action. So for the
everyone who's listening out there watching, take action on something
(46:18):
that you heard today. You know, maybe it's spending that quiet time getting
still and spending 30 minutes or an hour or
whatever, or even 15 minutes, just taking a little bit of time to
just set step aside, step out of
the busyness and to check-in with yourself and to say,
okay, what are the next steps that I need to take? What do I, what
(46:40):
do I desire, truly desire? And then what are the next steps to
go forward from there? I encourage you, you know, maybe
just relistening to this, grabbing the nuggets, get the book,
listen to, you know, her podcast, Jenny's podcast, go
to her website, explore this a little bit further because you know what? You can
listen to podcast every day. You can read books, you can have all these
(47:01):
things, but it's when we take action and apply what
we learned, that's when transformation happens. So I encourage you to do
that. We'd love to hear your stories. You can go on leaders of transformation.com.
Reach out to us there. Of course, we're on social as well, and we'd love
to hear how this has impacted you and, and what you do with
it. So with that, thanks for being here today, and we look forward to seeing
(47:23):
you next week on another episode of the lead of the transformation. Have a great
day.
So how do you earn a seat at the decision making table? Our guest today
is Jenny Mitchell. She is, based in Ottawa, Canada. So
another fellow Canadian. I'm excited to have her here.
She is the chief visionary officer atchavender.com,
and she is the author of Embracing Ambition and the
host of the Underdog Leadership podcast. You can check that
(00:25):
out if you're interested in learning more about, what she's
up to there, that's a great place to do that. She is committed
to nurturing the next generation of leaders and she works
very closely with not for profit leaders to change the world one mission at a
time. And so we're gonna talk about a few different topics here. Her
book, Embracing Ambition.
(00:48):
And it's a wonderful book with stories of women who have
overcome adversity and gotten a seat at the table.
And we're also gonna talk about fundraising because she's a fundraising professional
and lots of good things to, to come here. So Jenny, welcome to the leaders
transformation. We're glad you're here. Thanks for having me and delighted
to, open up this conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Well, before we
(01:11):
do that, let's do a shout out to Smith Publicity.
Thank you for, for the introduction. Because you know
what? This podcast yeah. Like this podcast would
not be what it is without all of the amazing
booking agents and friends and past
guests that send me amazing guests. And certainly we can't
(01:33):
interview everyone on this show, but, every once in a while we get
to to do that. And, so, yeah. Thank
you. Yeah. Thank you to them. And I'm gonna throw a question back to you,
Nicole, right away. You know, what was it about what I what we
put out or proposed to you that really resonated with you? I think that might
be a great anchor point for our conversation. Yeah. That's
(01:55):
great. Great point. Thanks for, turning that around. You're a good host.
She's got her own podcast. Can you tell? Well, so the reason
why was because of the approach that you were taking
to women, in your book,
and they're getting a seat at the table, not from a
position which some do, a lot
(02:18):
do, unfortunately, is that victim, but it's really
more from an empowerment standpoint, from a standpoint of
how do you, what, what do you need to do in the world that we
live in to get a seat at the table, to have your voice
heard? And it kind of goes for women and it also goes for
men. And so I liked the approach that you had there. And of course then
(02:39):
the fundraising as well. We do have nonprofits that are
listening, leaders that are listening and saying, how do I raise
funds for the projects that are that are near and dear to my
heart? And so, you know, getting that information,
insight from you as as somebody who has a lot of experience in the area,
I think is gonna be good. So I love that because I think when I
(03:01):
pull out of there and I know I'm gonna guess that your first question is
gonna be about leadership. And so I'm just gonna take us there if you don't
mind. And, what I wanna pick up out of there is
I don't really I'm not so interested in the adversity or the
obstacle, but I get very interested in how you
overcame it, what you learned, and where you're going with that knowledge. Yes.
(03:23):
And so that I think is to me one of the
tenets of the future leadership that we need more of. And so when when people
ask me, you know, tell me about your leadership style or tell me what's most
important to you. There are so many leadership coaches. Let's
just say that there are so many people with their own proprietary x y
z's. Who I wanna be a beacon for is
(03:45):
the people who have, my podcast is called
Underdog Leadership and some people go, oh, underdog. I'm not sure. And I say, well,
hold on a minute. Have you ever had an experience where you weren't the
most unlikely candidate? You were the one that was least
disposed to get that role and you had to
overcome something within you, I note, within you
(04:07):
to be seen differently or to be perceived differently or to
show up with your strengths. You haven't changed, Nicole. I just wanna be clear. We're
not talking about changing who you are. We're talking about picking and
choosing the pieces of you that you bring forward to get
that that leadership position. Because once you are
there, you can make the change happen for all those
(04:28):
other, sidelined, maligned,
challenged people that might might have not be the typical subjects
for leadership. That's what I wanna talk about. Love it. I love
it. So why is this such a passion for you? Where did this start for
you? It's a great question. So,
you know, I think I can go back to, the world when
(04:51):
I was little. I remember sitting in the back seat of a car looking out
the window and having two thoughts at the same time. Green,
ugly green. Remember those olive green, really wide, no seat belts, no
nothing, Nicole. Yeah. You're looking at the window and you see these cars going by
and you think, wow, the world is really really big place.
I didn't know it was that big. And 2, will I have time to meet
(05:13):
them all? Like a very people centered approach, very
focused on people, but realizing very quickly that the world makes
it very hard for us. High school is not a pleasant place
for anybody. And I remember feeling very isolated and very lonely and
very different. Now the irony is that I've come back to that
place and talked to other colleagues and everybody felt different. Like, I
(05:35):
don't know anybody who felt perfectly normal and, you
know, in high school. And so I feel like we've been sold this bill of
goods about the way the world is supposed to be. Maybe we that place
of feeling uncomfortable is the place we need to get comfortable
in so that we can grow into the next
phase of ourselves. So I resonate with the underdog.
(05:57):
I resonate with the person that has struggled to learn
how to use their voice. Good Canadians. We don't like
conflict. You know, good girl. Stay in your lane. Don't be too
bossy. Don't make too much noise. Definitely resonate with that,
Nicole. And I found my own way through it that's worked for me,
and I keep continue to learn from others about how they do it.
(06:19):
And I'd love to hear also hear how you've done that over the years too.
You know it's interesting because you you right out of the gate you're you know
for very people centered and focused on that and
and that says just says so much about who you are and what's important to
you. For me, I was like the doer. I was the loner
and I was a bit of an outsider, even though I
(06:42):
could get along with everyone. I was kind of the outside
observer watching what was happening. And I remember being
very introverted actually. And,
shy. Like literally being 3 years old, my mom saying, you know, somebody
saying, you know, what's wrong with her? It's like, oh, because I was hiding behind
her and saw, she's just shy. And I remember that. And
(07:03):
I owned that. And so when I got into business,
when I was in my teens and I said, this is what I wanna do,
I wanna be in business for myself. I wanna, you know, my parents
were entrepreneurs already. And so I was kind of in that environment. I wanted to
be my own boss. I wanna have freedom and all that thing, all those things.
It occurred to me that I was going to have to talk to some people
(07:25):
because it was not going to work otherwise. And so that's when I
started getting out of my shell and starting to articulate,
you know, communicate. And it was kind of messy in the beginning.
And then it was, you know, I was 16 years old, right? I'm trying to
sell fax machines door to door, right? In Markham, Ontario,
and you know, in the industrial areas. And it was like, oh honey,
(07:48):
that's just so, that's so cute. That's cute. Right?
$25100 fax machines back, back in the day. And that's
1988. And so who's going to give a 16 year old
$2,500 Right? And, and trust
that she's going to bring back a fax machine in a week.
(08:09):
So it was tough. And then I started selling, you know, different things. I realized
very quickly I wasn't interested in fax machines, but it was the only thing I
could find that I had gotten a line on wholesale. I could buy retail.
Sell buy wholesale and sell retail and make a profit.
And as I continued on, I realized very quickly
that it was I could complain about how it
(08:32):
was, or I could say,
how am I going to show up so
that they're going to listen to me? I got more propositions for
dinner and dates than I did sales in the beginning.
And I was like, okay, so how do I get them to
listen to me and take me seriously? What do I need to change in
(08:55):
me to do that? And that was, and, and
that was very empowering for me because over time,
they started to listen. Maybe they looked at me and went, oh,
she's young. Right? Now she's 20 to now she's 24,
25, 26. But then I'd open my mouth and they're
like, oh, dang. She knows, she's gonna she knows a few things.
(09:18):
And that's how I earned the seat at the table. Right? And
so that's why this is so important because I think so many of us, and
yes, I am Canadian and polite. I am also very
driven and results, you know, oriented. And so I was like, how
do we get the result? Right. So very tenacious as one of
my mentors says, my middle name is, Tenacity.
(09:41):
And so, yeah, I think that there's a lot of women that we wait
and men both for sure that we wait for somebody
to open the door for us. We wait for that person to give
us the opportunity. They're not giving me the opportunity. And it's like,
well, if I would wait for the opportunity, I'd
still be waiting. Yeah. And when you're pushing through
(10:03):
that boundary, that that political piece in
you, it'll feel very uncomfortable. You may feel like you're holding
your breath. You may feel like there's a tight knot in your stomach. The
but those are signals from your body. They that your
body wants to keep you safe. And one of the things I always say to
my clients is, you know, that it's okay to honor, say thank you
(10:25):
very much, you know, that little voice, but I'm gonna do it anyway. Right? Oh,
yeah. And here's something you you picked up on. I'm gonna phrase a different way.
The obstacle is the way. That's right. So many of us hit
the obstacle and run away. And I do worry about our our young our next
generations with this. I we could have a sidebar about that one. Because
adversity is is important. Not adversity that breaks you
(10:48):
down and gives you a mental health, challenge, but
adversity where you have to change the way you're doing things in order to
get to where you wanna go. Yes. And so taking a hard look at
that obstacle, I can imagine you at 23 going, okay.
It seems to me if I do a quick analysis, I'm doing better with
this profile. I get in when I have something that's only 2
(11:10):
minutes long like that analysis on the moment and adjusting,
and I would call this testing or trying
things out is so powerful versus
hurt, shame, embarrassment, which really,
cuts you off at the knees, Nicole. Yeah. Absolutely. And you
know what? Adversity and obstacles is how we
(11:32):
grow. If you're gonna, if you wanna build muscle and you
go to the gym and all you do is, you know, 3 pound weights
and that's all you're not, it'll get you to that. If you've
never lifted £3. Okay. There's some, maybe a little bit
of resistance there or you're a kid and one thing. But once you get to
the point where you are growing and that's that you need
(11:54):
more, right? Like the reward for overcoming
one challenge is another challenge in another
opportunity. And you can see it as an obstacle, or you can see it
as an opportunity. I saw it as an opportunity. And yes,
at some point I looked at it and said, you know, it's
interesting because I had, what was my obstacle
(12:16):
became my opportunity. That's right. Because now I've got like,
you got a 25 year old girl who's coming in and she knows her
stuff. And it's like, dang. Okay. I
started getting job offers. Yeah. People were like, I need you
on my team. Yeah. And you stand out. You stand
out. So the very thing that could have stopped me is the very thing that
(12:38):
became my advantage later on. Yeah. I love that. So so think
about leadership when you asked me that question earlier. I think there's an
element to leadership of okay. We all know the know
yourself, you know, self awareness blah blah blah, but it's more than
that. It's accepting the fact that you are, and I love this
quote, a spiritual being having a human experience.
(13:00):
Yes. Right? And so if you trust in your own energy and
if you can slightly distance yourself from what's happening
to you, like Yeah. Step out. Yeah. That like one
second pause between the action, what happens and how you
react. To me that it really is self leadership,
which is the most important component of any kind of other leadership. And
(13:23):
it just when you think you've got it, it's it's very nebulous. It moves
again, Nicole, because it is a continuous learning journey, and I would say the
word is deepening into rather than
expansion of. It's it's more it's yes and.
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. So tell us about your book, Embracing
Emission. How did that come to be? Yeah. So very simply,
(13:45):
I was an academic. I have many, many degrees. My former life, I was a
classical musician, and, I had written a dissertation, so I had
a doctor degree, so I knew I could write. And as an academic,
the highlight of your world is writing a book. It's the ultimate,
you know, Mount Everest. And every time I started thinking about writing this
book, I thought me by myself writing about
(14:08):
me, boring, like, truly. Right? Because as
we said, I am a people person. I like, right away, even in this interview,
you know, I wanna have a dialogue. I wanna know what you think. I wanna
I wanna create together. So this is where I said, what if I
took I had heard the research by, doctor Megan
Rabine who has the the wrote her paper on these
(14:29):
5 pillars that are outlined in the book. The 5 pillars that women
will experience in their journey to the c suite.
And I thought, what if I could marry the research with my love
of people and these first person stories? If I could inspire 12 women
to come on this journey with me and write, not what it not the
official version. Right? But the what it felt like to lead
(14:51):
as a woman version and invite them to be
transparent, vulnerable, and share their story as an
arc. And then I took those stories, those 12 stories, and fit them into
the pillars. So what you find in the book, Nicole and and to all of
our listeners is a description of the pillar. So what the experience
is based on the research, and then you get these beautiful
(15:13):
colored stories about what it feels like to lead. And
then at the end, there's some reflection questions. So that the idea that when you
interact with the information and you discuss it with girlfriends and you
have these conversations, it doesn't have the same power over you that it did
before. So that's how the book came to be. We wrote it
on a weekend in Toronto together, which is also very
(15:35):
unique. So So let me explain that we all learned about storytelling.
We had a fantastic editor that walked us through. But when we arrived
Saturday, we had kernels of ideas. We workshopped with
each other, which because we had a 1,000,000 stories. Right? Everybody in in
leadership has stories, but which one would feel the most
authentic and organic? We workshop them. And then by Sunday when we
(15:58):
left, we had the story mapped out. We may not have had it written,
and then we supported each other through that journey. And I think that has been
the most powerful part of this book. This is not this is more than just
a book. To me, this is like a way of operating in the
world. And I think that the way it was done could be applied
to so many other institutions and organizations, entrepreneurs.
(16:19):
I think they could bring this example to their teams. It's a
framework that has a lot of, flexibility
to it, and you learn so much more about people when you
do it this way. Than I was born in 1972 and
my parents were from here and, you know, that sort of litany of check
boxes Yeah. If you will. Yeah. Well, I was actually
(16:41):
born in 1972, but Me me too. Just saying. Oh,
really? So we're the same age. That's funny. Figured.
Yeah. Well, so, yeah. And I loved, I loved that.
And I loved the diversity in the book as well. You know, women talking
about their different experiences, different perspectives
on what it meant for them to, to
(17:04):
embrace ambition, to be willing to say, Hey, this
is what I've always dreamed of doing, being the underdog.
Some of the stories, like I think of the one lady who was from Nigeria
and how somebody, I just, I, I keep that stuck. It gets stuck in my
brain. Somebody said to her, how do you like it here? And she's
like, what? Cause she thought she was a refugee and she's like, I'm
(17:27):
Canadian. And I was thinking about that.
And it's like, we all have it's hard for you and
I maybe to relate to that experience. But
it's, it's, you know, it's
I just, as I said, I just, you, you, when you look and you step
into somebody else's shoes and you start to see that
(17:50):
what their experience has been, that's not to make them
a victim though, is to just recognize,
wow, we have, we have such a narrow view and how can
we expand our view and see the value and see
even beyond that, even see how
we're showing up for others
(18:12):
and in others' lives, how we're perceived in other
people's lives. People who have good intentions,
people that are looking to be successful in life
and make a difference and bring value and so forth. How are we
showing up for them? And that just really struck out for me, kind of
like being on the opposite side of these stories
(18:34):
and saying, wow, like Well, of
course, it's just How can I ensure that I'm not that person, that I'm the
person that's empowering them? Yeah. And that was her name was Onomay.
She's the first story in the book. And, she one of the things that she
said to me that I mean, there were many things that she said that really
stuck with me. One was I never thought of myself as black until I came
to Canada. So interesting because we define her that
(18:58):
way. And just for all of our listeners, you know, I'm not
a DEI specialist. I'm I I hope I'm working hard to be a
better ally, and this book has sort of prompted me to think about some things.
But, you know, we often make assumptions that are
not, not really grounded in a fact or
truth. We just do these things, and we must be
(19:20):
mindful of that. I think the most important part is just to ask
ourselves, you know, just check ourselves.
You know, you're going up to the person and saying that the story she talked
about was somebody always mistaking her for the the waiter. Oh my
gosh, Nicole. Right? Or the one where she gets announced,
congratulations. You have this new role, our BIPOC CEO. And it's like, you
(19:42):
take away all of her sovereignty, all of her work
by labeling her as such that she's only BIPOC.
And the last thing I'll say is that understanding
what they symbolize to their communities when she's making
decisions, she represents all women of color when she's making
those choices. So if she succeeds, great. But if she fails,
(20:05):
everybody's watching. And so I'm learning more and more. We talk
about women and men and how, you know, we men make
assumptions, I think, sometimes about us. I also think that we
are learning how to be more open with
our perceptions of leadership. Women tend to be
more collaborative. They tend to ask for more feedback. That does not have to
(20:28):
be a a lack of strength or a lack of confidence.
But if you've never seen it happen that way before, Nicole, if you've never seen
a truly collaborative leader, you can say, oh my god. What she doesn't know what
she's doing. Right? So taking that time to
soften that yoke of leadership. I'm not asking you
to be less clear. I'm not asking women to be, less decisive.
(20:49):
That's not my point. But we can have different influences, and we
need masculine and feminine. We can't survive with just go
go go, and we can't survive just with, sort of
that warm, compassionate. We need actually
in an ideal world, we need both and we need them to exist.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's not the either or it's not the
(21:11):
either, or, and, you know, recently I was talking to somebody about this feminine
energy, masculine energy, and we both have, we all have
both. And it's how we use that in the balance. And he was talking
about the value of the feminine energy, being that container,
you know, in, in that, in, and being the one that kind of creates that
container for the masculine drive, you know, in that. And I thought that
(21:34):
was a really great example. And yeah, you know what? I
guess maybe, I mean, I'm from Canada, I'm from Toronto. So Toronto was
very multi cultural and it has always baffled
me that we make and that's, I'll say that, and then we can move on
to other things. But, it's always
baffled me how we judge somebody
(21:57):
by their the cover of them, like the color of their skin.
Coming from Toronto and actually moving to LA,
I was actually quite shocked
at how much, prejudice and
racism was actually going on. And I don't mean that again from a victim
standpoint. It was an observation and it actually was me being the other
(22:19):
side because of where we moved to. And I went everybody's
looking at me like, what are you doing here? And I'm like, what? Like,
what do you mean? What am I doing here? You know? And and so
it's, it's something that we we get to work on. And as
leaders Mhmm. We get to, you know, look
at how can we empower people? How can we
(22:43):
create environments for them to thrive and
for the best version of them to show up? How do we do that and
not be, allow our biases and our assumptions
to get in the way of that. Yeah. Sandboxes. What does
your sandbox look like? Who's in your sandbox? How do we treat the
people in your sandbox? You know, I I I love this
(23:06):
discussion. And and just to tie it back to the book, you know,
ambition means different things to different women. That's another thing I wanna
highlight is that, you know, this this masculine word ambition, we're kind of reclaiming
it with this title, embracing ambition, and it's intentional. Right?
Embracing warms it up. It it softens it. So many people
have have mentioned the title to me and granted I workshop this thing,
(23:28):
Nicole. Like, I I did test groups. I did marketing.
Fascinating what people like and what people don't like in titles. And
I wanted it to be that idea. We can reclaim it for what what we
want. It doesn't have to be the CEO of x y
z, but if that's what you desire, then let's build you a path to
get there. But being ambitious for your own sake
(23:50):
instead of for your race's sake, for your society's sake, for your
parents' sake, for your kids' sake, I mean, to truly
internalize that and, you know, as a professional coach and something I do a lot
of the time, we're often triggered by external stuff, you know, the
medals and the validation and the awards and the accolades. But
that intrinsic motivation, when you tap into it and you wanna do
(24:12):
it because you're genuinely curious and you genuinely
have a passion for something, it's a game changer because suddenly you
find the energy and the flow to make it all happen. And, that's
what I'd like more of from everybody because, you know, the AI is
gonna change a lot of things, but what it's not gonna change is human
interaction, human connection, all of those mirror neurons that are you and I
(24:35):
are having a heyday with right now on Zoom because we're connecting over
something that's meaningful. That's not going anywhere anytime soon, so
we might as well get really comfy being humans with
all the joys and the pitfalls that that comes with. Yeah,
absolutely. So let's talk about, I wanna shift
gears and I promise that we would talk about fundraising. And
(24:57):
I think this is a, it seems like a segue. And yet at the same
time, again, we're talking about environments. We're talking about
okay. So we have charities that have missions Yep.
That they want to put forth. They got the same challenge,
perception. Right? How do you connect to
your audience, the right people? How do you even,
(25:19):
you know, I know we were talking about, about what's the difference between fundraising and
capital funding? Mhmm. Why do people not
repeatedly donate? They might donate once, but they don't come
back. Yep. So, again, this is all perception. This is all,
like, what where do we start with that? Like, if
let's say somebody's out there and they they have a charity or they have some
(25:41):
kind of initiative, even if it's not a formal, you know, charity
or it's a church or whatever, and they're saying, we wanna we've
got a heart for this. Right? We wanna we wanna make this happen, this ambition
that we have. There's actually a book out there called holy ambition. The
ambition is not bad, right? It's like holy ambition. It's like, what is that
thing that you say? You know, this is, this is what I'm called to do.
(26:03):
This is what I'm the injustice that I wanna, I wanna solve
the, the gap that I wanna fill. Yeah. And they need some funds
to be able to do that. Yeah. So where do they begin? Yeah. And, you
know, there is a lot of parallels between fund development and,
capital raising capital for entrepreneurs. So for your entrepreneur listeners, I'd love for you to
think about how this relates to your world as you're raising capital.
(26:25):
It always starts with an idea, a vision of how the world's better.
Or in your case, like you mentioned, an injustice, something that's wrong that you feel
that you can you can address or fix. Or, you know, maybe it's not even
fixed. Maybe it's shift or, transform Transform.
Transform. Thank you. Wait. Yo. Great. There you go. There you go.
Transform. So, I think what we do a
(26:47):
lot of as soon as money comes into play, a lot of people get
really weird because it's taboo. There's
beliefs in there. There's how you were raised around your kitchen table.
Fun fact, if you're ever looking for a very engaging dinner party,
invite 2 other friends, 2 other couple friends, if you're if you have a
partner, and ask them what they learned around about money around the
(27:10):
kitchen table when they were kids. Because you think you know these
people, and then when you hear those deep deep rooted values, it's
fascinating what comes up. So money is
fundamental, and so that's part a. I
think a lot of the time we think of charity as a less than, and
it really inhibits us when we're out there asking for a cause.
(27:32):
So the old version of charity was the tin cup mentality. Please give us
money. Right? Yeah. For us. You know, Salvation Army,
using an example that's in Canada and the States, they worked very hard on
moving from a tin cup mentality to a a leg
up rather than a handout. And so you are going to have to
cast a vision and inspire people what will
(27:55):
be different when they make that gift. And sometimes I find people fixate
on the amount or the thing, not the bigger vision of what's going on.
So let me give an example. You want
to so that every woman in California can have access
right now. We're talking a lot about, menstrual products and all those kinds of things.
(28:15):
What values, what beliefs does the person that you're talking to
hold about that subject? So you may not go in with with menstrual
products. We may go in with how do you feel about humans? How do you
feel about equality and dignity? How do you tell me more about
your experiences as a person growing up in your community.
You know? So finding that equity, equality, and aligning
(28:37):
the beliefs, Nicole, before you move into the money part. Because a lot of the
time, we move quickly to the money, and it ends up with sort of a
bit of a, what's the word, a bit of a catalyst.
Because people people tend to not like when,
Nicole, I have this great idea. I know I know that you should come with
me. It's gonna be fantastic. I've got it all mapped out. I just need your
(28:58):
money. Yeah. Like, nobody wants to do that. It's like sales. Right? You have to
bring them along the journey. So that's part a. I think having the right people
on the team is another important. So the case, what we would use the case,
the language, why are we doing this, what's important. Who's on the
team? I think it's important to think carefully and thoughtfully and bring people
along. Volunteers and emotional,
(29:19):
enthusiasm is gonna matter a lot. So, you cannot
push boulders up a hill without the right people pushing those boulders. Yeah. And then
I think the the piece that most people miss is the celebration and the community
piece. I think we often sort of collapse in a heap after the event, and
we don't actually get the chance to do the the human work of connecting and
thanking and all those good things. So those are, like, my
(29:41):
high level examples. I would finally close with
charity, and I'm people are not gonna like to hear this, but charity is a
business. It has inputs and outputs. It has revenue. It has
expenses. Unfortunately, the charitable
world lives under the shadow of
overhead costs and the shadow of how much does your CEO get paid and
(30:02):
the shadow that we're doing, you know, and for your community, you know,
God's work and that we shouldn't get paid a lot, that we shouldn't
have needs and all those good stuff. I say,
I say forget it. I say, don't ask what things are costing at
the charity. I ask Yeah. Ask what the return on investment is
like. When you make an investment in fund development and in marketing, those are the
(30:26):
two places you should expect a return on the other side. And so for my
business folks that are sitting on boards, because I'm sure lots of them out there
are are experiencing this right now, Rather than spending all that time
on the expense sheet and cutting things back, how can you look at the revenue
and say, what's my part in this? How can I amplify this voice? How can
I make better introductions and community to
(30:48):
get this message of this mission out to more people?
And overhead and cost to raise a dollar are one
important metric, but they are not the be all and the end all, Nicole. That's
all. I'll hold it there. Do you hear my passion? I hope. Well,
and I love that you just, as you unpack that, you just laid
out, the, the, the formula or the plan for that.
(31:10):
And, you know, I wrote down this like, why, who,
and then the celebration right. Of, of that. And I think that's
so important. Celebrating all wins. I learned that from one of my mentors is celebrating
all the wins because otherwise we just keep going onto the next thing and the
next thing and the next thing. And in spiritually, you
mentioned about earlier, it's like spiritually, our spirit goes like, wow,
(31:32):
I don't do this. Yeah. I never get rewarded. You know, it's
just same old, same old. My reward is more work. I know. Next
thing. And so I think that's, that's really important. And when you said about
starting with the why, you know, I, I, and,
I'm doing this exciting thing. I think about somebody who reached out to me on
Facebook and I've had lots of people I'm sure you have too, you know, that
(31:54):
reach out and ask for money, but it's like, well, I'm doing
this thing and you should support me in it.
Right. Right. And I'm like, okay.
So not that it's not a good thing to do,
but it's not necessarily where my priority is right now. It's
not to say that I'm not donating and supporting
(32:17):
things. It's just I'm deciding, you know, and so people
can, you know, feel bad or make you feel
bad because you're not you're not supporting that thing because they
are so passionate about it and it is meaningful
and it's a yes. And I look at it and say, okay, when I say
yes to this, I'm also saying no to all these other things. And
(32:39):
so what am I saying yes to? And what am I choosing to say
no to? Or what do I it's and like, to me, it's like, I feel
like there's a there's a sense of calling. Right? It's like, I feel a
call. I test I I check-in. It's like, am I supposed to do that? Or
am I not sometimes it sounds unreasonable. It's like, I don't know why I'm doing
this, but I'm supporting this. Yeah. So I wanna talk about the
(33:00):
passion blindness because you just described it so well when you're so
pumped about something and you think you've got the best. And I would say our
capital folks are are, our venture capitalists are the same. Right? Same
thing. Entrepreneurs are guilty of this. Blinds to
all the pitfalls. Right? And sort of nobody wants to be convinced
to give money. Yeah. People wanna come along with you on the
(33:21):
journey. Yeah. And so the language and the way you set it up and make
no bones about it. What's in it for me? That is
part of the story. I mean, obviously, venture capital is what's in it for me
as a return on investment. But even if it's a charitable thing, you know, they
can give to a 1000000 different places. So how are you setting yourself
up to align with what they already believe is a yes and.
(33:43):
Right? Yes. And show them that they can make that difference through
your organization. So this is an egoless experience. There's
not a lot of ego in, fund development in my
experience. It's much more about a partnership. It's so much more
about listening. People think that fundraisers are snake oil, you know, snake
they they convince people of things. That's not it at all. I'm
(34:06):
always surprised. We do a heck of a lot of listening. We do a a
lot of alignment check-in, and we're not looking for
money. We're looking for fit. And Yeah. People don't spend
the time doing that, unfortunately. There are a whole bunch of other components.
Brand comes in. You know? Are they trustworthy? We talk about hygiene
issues in my world. So, you know, if before Nicole's gonna give me money, it's
(34:28):
just to know that I'm trustworthy, just to have know that my financially, I'm gonna
be stable. Please, please, please, no definite deficit financing.
Nobody wants to give money to a charity to pull it out of a hole.
We are always forward thinking. So why now?
Why me? Why are you talking to me? What is it about me? And then,
I think what's changed? So for a lot of folks, you're gonna
(34:50):
have to if you're bringing in inviting someone to make a big investment
for transformational mission shift, you
better be able to tell me why you're asking for it now. Well, it's because,
you know, music in the schools is no longer available. We're seeing these trends with
kids. Like, give me data, but also tell me stories
and tell me how people's lives can be changed and bring
(35:12):
me along a story arc. And don't expect me to give you I
always say, you know, it's a bit like sales. The first gift is the smallest
gift. Right? Mhmm. Like, sometimes there's the that fine. I'll give you some
money to go away gift. But if you it's small
slow yeses and fast nos, you know,
versus fast nos. Well and it is it is like sales.
(35:35):
When you think about people are not, they don't want to be sold.
They want, they have a problem that they need to solve. They have
a need they're looking to fill. There's there's a
reason why they would buy something and it's not just to
convince you or have you go away and say, here, let me give you some
money. You know, I'll buy your thing. And then they regret it later. Who
(35:57):
wants that? Then you might get a transaction, but you you'll get a user, but
you won't get a customer. You won't get long term.
Yep. Client value in that. And so, this is
so good. So Jenny, tell us a little bit more about like what you do.
We've talked about your book. You mentioned about you also coach, you know,
obviously you have expertise in fundraising. Tell us a little bit more about what
(36:19):
you do and the clients that you work with. Thank you for this platform because
I, I, I sort of listen to you list off those things. I'm like, God,
I've done a lot of variety of things, but there is a thread, Nicole.
So the thread is meaningful connections. The thread is conversations
that matter. And so I can trace that thread
through all of my work. And where I've landed is,
(36:42):
supporting and elevating women's voices. What I talk about is
helping number twos become number ones in work and life. So I'm no
longer interested in just work coaching. I really wanna be full
body coaching. I wanna in a sense that I don't think you can I haven't
met anybody yet who is 1 person at work and 1 person at home?
And so all of the pieces that I've been adding to my toolkit, be it
(37:04):
breath work, be it, vestibular system work,
be it, you know, positive affirmations. I mean, I've I
am a huge book reader. I love all that stuff. And what I'd
like to do is help those number twos
become who they wanna be. And the way that is through
coaching. It's been my best experience. So I work 1 on 1 with folks.
(37:26):
Most of my folks come from corporate. That tends to be my thread. And
then I also work in group programs. So I have a program called the penthouse,
which is for aspiring women leaders where we have, 12
months together where we go through self, others,
team, and vision. Those are sort of my 4 big buckets, and,
we cocreate that space together. So just like just
(37:49):
like at the podcast where I immediately flipped it to you, I hate talking
heads. I wanna be in dialogue and conversation with people.
And so the mastermind, framework really works well. Whereas I
introduce topics, I absolutely facilitate and I guide.
But I actually believe very strongly in the the tentative executive
coaching or any coaching is that the coachee is comes already
(38:12):
whole. We're not here with people. Right? We're here
to elevate, ask good questions, challenge,
inspire to provoke a new sense
of a new lens, a new sense of awareness, a new perspective. Because
when your perspective changes, the world around you changes with it.
Yeah. And that I think is is probably the most profound and powerful
(38:33):
thing I could do with with my life. Yeah. I
love that. I love that. And when you talk about number
twos becoming number ones, as we wrap up
here Yeah. What is if there is a
obviously Yeah. Going to your website, learning more about your
programs, and and participating in your next program
(38:55):
that you've got launching, the mastermind for the 12
months. What is one thing that if
I'm number 2 Mhmm. Has
been kind of in line of succession and
maybe delayed, and they feel like,
I don't know how to get from here to there. What is the one thing
(39:17):
that you would say for them just a starting point to to
do to be to set themselves up to be that number 1?
Love the question. Deep
breath. Ask for genuine feedback.
And what I often find is that, unfortunately,
number twos are pigeonholed because they do such a good job that the
(39:41):
number one doesn't really want them to move anywhere. Right. So that's
one of the experiences you have. Right? The other thing I often say
is never, please, never put yourself in a position where someone
you put your career in somebody else's hands. And I see a lot of that
in the world where people say, well, my number one will take care of me.
So what I mean by feedback is, going to
(40:03):
your direct report and saying, in the pursuit of my
learning, I've identified some areas. So people don't like, can
you give me feedback blank. Right? It doesn't work. I've identified some specific
areas that I would like to work on in my growth, and you may have
made some notes for I was going for in 4 lines, 4
questions, and I'd like to take the time with you to kind of unpack some
(40:25):
of those things. Would that be something you would you would be willing to do
at our next 101? Now do you hear that? The permission based, would that be
something? So asking permission, first of all. And when we
get into that meeting, some folks, you have to know your boss. Do they like
to have things in advance? Do they like to speak off the cuff? One of
the things I found is if you can ask them to ask for a scale.
(40:46):
So some people are very uncomfortable receiving or giving
feedback. So if you say on a scale to 1 to 10, 10 being I
communicate most effectively with you and timely, where would you put me?
I find that really cuts to the chase, Nicole, as far as, like,
getting people to answer. Yeah. And then here's that's part a,
but part b is going to, a direct not
(41:07):
a direct report, but somebody who's on that same line and seeking
feedback. Not asking them to be a mentor or a sponsor, but what's
your perception of you of me? And could you please be as
as clear and as constructive as possible for me?
Because I think most people are quite taken aback by that, and it really
changes the energetic dynamic. I've been waiting
(41:30):
around. I've been sitting in my seat waiting for someone to anoint
me versus going after it in a very respectful not
necessarily this isn't an aggressive move. This is a and if
you want to, you can even let your boss know that you're doing
it. You'd be amazed how it changes energy when you take
responsibility for your own career, how people see you
(41:51):
differently. I have seen this time and time again, the internal
processing to make the decision to take coaching
or to take yourself seriously, suddenly the the the
playing field changes. The chair changes, Nicole, if you will. Yes.
Oh, I love that because that is about personal leadership. That
is about demonstrating it and it takes courage. It takes
(42:14):
awareness. It takes courage to be willing to even
receive that feedback. What are you gonna do with that feedback once you get it?
That is so good. Such great great advice. Jenny, I
really enjoyed this conversation, man. I I I it
went in directions that I didn't expect it to go. There's like that's why I
love these conversations where it's like you're just open to the possibility,
(42:37):
and it's been so good. We're gonna make sure, of course,
your book, a link to your book, Embracing Ambition, and
your podcast, Underdog Leadership, and your website, travinder.com,
is all in the show notes. Any final thoughts for our listeners
before we wrap up? I guess I
would say that you know
(42:59):
what you are looking for. Just sometimes you
have to get quiet, you have to get thoughtful,
and you have to get brave to find out what you really think
because you know what's best for you. I
I know you do. Yeah. That's so
good. You, when you, when you were talking about number twos and
(43:21):
number ones and how valuable number twos
are, even as we categorize number 1, number
2, I was, I was thinking about the fact
that sometimes we think our value is only
in a position of number being in number 1, then I'm
valuable. Yeah. But maybe it's realizing to what you were just saying
(43:43):
is maybe realizing that this is
the best position. This is where I thrive. So often, like,
I see that in sales where somebody is a really good
salesperson and then they promote them into
management and they fail miserably. Why? Because that's
not actually, that's a totally different set of skills.
(44:05):
And so, you know, in knowing what you really want, don't just take,
just don't chase that number one position because
you think that's what you need to do because that's what everybody else
assumes is the next role for you. You might be in number 2 and you
might love it. I know there's some people who are entrepreneurs. I believe
we're all entrepreneurs at heart, but some are more,
(44:28):
adept to being intrepreneurs, working within
companies, working within systems. I think of somebody
amazing, talented woman. She's a rock star.
And she said, you know what? I think I realized in myself that
I like working within a system, a structure, a team that's
already established, and then I can shine there. And so to
(44:51):
your point about just know who you are, know what you really
want you deep, deep inside, know that. And don't let anybody tell you that you
need to do something other than that. Just stay, you know, take the
feedback, take the feedback, but trust your trust,
your instincts. So yeah. So good. Thank you. I'm looking at your sign
behind you that says loved enough. You know? And it's that idea
(45:13):
that you start the day, you're already enough. Right?
Because I think even with this number 2 and number 1, we can imply through
those labels that they're that people are less than. And in
my experience, the more you show up with your cup already full
and that you can fill your own cup, which is something I'm still
working on, Nicole. I mean, I think we're all a work in progress. It gets
(45:35):
easier as you get older. But that knowing of of how you can
take care of yourself, that you are already enough, and that the
day at work is a bonus Yes. Which
finishes, and then it starts all over again. None of this sort of collapse into
a heap at 5 o'clock anymore, please. Like, life is too short and too
valuable for that. Let's let's let's embrace ambition.
(45:56):
I love how I did that. Let's embrace ambition every
day and and come from a place of of
a fullness, I guess, is the word or abundance is the word I'm looking for.
Yeah. So good. Alright. Well, I always
say leaders of transformation take action. So for the
everyone who's listening out there watching, take action on something
(46:18):
that you heard today. You know, maybe it's spending that quiet time getting
still and spending 30 minutes or an hour or
whatever, or even 15 minutes, just taking a little bit of time to
just set step aside, step out of
the busyness and to check-in with yourself and to say,
okay, what are the next steps that I need to take? What do I, what
(46:40):
do I desire, truly desire? And then what are the next steps to
go forward from there? I encourage you, you know, maybe
just relistening to this, grabbing the nuggets, get the book,
listen to, you know, her podcast, Jenny's podcast, go
to her website, explore this a little bit further because you know what? You can
listen to podcast every day. You can read books, you can have all these
(47:01):
things, but it's when we take action and apply what
we learned, that's when transformation happens. So I encourage you to do
that. We'd love to hear your stories. You can go on leaders of transformation.com.
Reach out to us there. Of course, we're on social as well, and we'd love
to hear how this has impacted you and, and what you do with
it. So with that, thanks for being here today, and we look forward to seeing
(47:23):
you next week on another episode of the lead of the transformation. Have a great
day.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.