January 14, 2025 • 35 mins
How do we become more culturally fluent leaders?
In this episode, Nicole Jansen invites global leadership strategist Jane Hyun to explore empathy and cultural fluency in leadership effectiveness. As a coach to Fortune 500 companies and author of pivotal works such as "Breaking the Bamboo Ceiling," Jane Hyun brings a wealth of knowledge on inclusive leadership and self-care practices essential for today's fast-paced business environment.
Reflecting on her personal journey from South Korea to New York City, Jane shares how her experiences of cultural dissonance have shaped her leadership strategies. Together, Jane and Nicole unpack the process of navigating cultural differences and the power of empathy in leadership. They discuss actionable strategies for leaders to create whole-person workplaces, emphasizing emotional health, diversity, and continuous personal growth.
Join us as we explore the nuances of cross-cultural leadership, the intricate responsibilities that come with roles in diverse work environments, and the importance of self-care amidst increasing work complexities
What We Discuss in this Episode
- Maintaining emotional connections within teams.
- Creating whole-person workplaces where emotional connections are valued.
- The importance of taking time to process grief and emotions in leadership.
- Continual personal growth and the necessity for cultural fluency in leadership.
- Building bridges across racial, gender, and other differences.
- Reflective questions for engaging effectively in new and high-stakes situations.
- Practicing reflective habits to challenge assumptions and slow down.
- The mismanagement of expectations and understanding the company's bigger mission.
- Effective self-care practices and the importance of understanding one's value proposition.
Podcast Highlights
0:00 - Cross-cultural leadership and changing workplaces.
3:05 – Experiencing cultural differences personally.
7:03 – Navigating cultural fluency.
10:22 - Bringing authenticity to the workplace.
16:46 - Mismanaged expectations stem from unclear role communication.
20:22 – Demonstrating self-empathy as a leader.
24:11 - Creating genuine workplace connection.
29:15 – Steps to engaging effectively with others.
34:40 - Explore books for valuable insights, connect via show notes.
Favorite Quotes
Self-Care and Effectiveness: “To handle challenges effectively, one must practice self-kindness and take necessary breaks.”
Empathy and Connection: “Building bridges across differences and practicing empathy can transform leadership and enhance team dynamics.”
Reflective Leadership: “Leading with curiosity rather than judgment opens pathways to better engagement and cultural fluency.”
Episode Show Notes and Resources: https://leadersoftransformation.com/podcast/leadership/526-embracing-leadership-and-cultural-fluency-with-jane-hyun/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Leaders of Transformation Podcast. The number one
show for business leaders and entrepreneurs passionate about uplifting
others and making a greater impact in the world. Now here's
your host, transformational coach, speaker, and business
advisor, Nicole Jansen.
How do we become culturally fluent leaders? Our guest today is Jane
(00:23):
Hyun. She is a global leadership expert and
a trusted coach to Fortune 500 Companies
and an internationally recognized expert in cross
cultural effectiveness, inclusive leadership, and
talent engagement. She is the best selling author of Breaking the
Bamboo Ceiling and co author of Flex, the new
(00:45):
playbook for managing across differences. And this year, she
released a new book called Leadership Toolkit for Asians,
the definitive resource guide for breaking the bamboo ceiling, which is a
sequel to her first book. And so today, we're gonna be talking about cross cultural
leadership and navigating the changing workplace
and, you know, how to close that cultural gap for Asians in corporate
(01:07):
America. And we're also gonna talk about wellness and health and
just really taking care of yourself through this whole process of this
evolving workplace that we live in. So Jane, welcome to the leaders transformation.
We're glad you're here today. Hi, Nicole. It's good to be here with you. Thanks
for having me. It is a pleasure. And before we go any further, I
do wanna do a shout out to Smith publicity because they're the ones who
(01:29):
introduced us. And this show would not be what it is without all the
amazing booking agents and people that recommend amazing guests. So thank you to
them for their introduction, and they're the reason why we're
here. So it's awesome. And I know you know that Ben Gutman, he's a good
friend of yours, and he's been on the show a few months ago. And so
small world. Small world. How we connect with each other. Right? Yeah. Let's talk about
(01:51):
your own life journey and kind of how that influenced the work
that you do today. Yeah. My life, I think, is has been a bit
of a path of different places and travel. I live in New York
City now, as you know, but I grew up in South Korea. So
I had kind of this my first my first formative years of first 8 years
in this profoundly different cultural context. And, you know, I grew up at a
(02:13):
time in Korea where there was very little immigration to South Korea.
Right? It was basically anybody who I grew up with looked like
me. I they had black hair, spoke Korean, and it really
was a kind of a homogeneous environment, monocultural environment. And
those early years kinda shaped me in profound ways. And I
grew up in a school system where you had maybe about 60 kids
(02:36):
and one teacher, no assistant teacher. But it was
absolutely quiet. It was this silent classroom because there was this
profound sense of, you know, when you're learning in the classroom, you're not making a
lot of noise. You're not asking a lot of questions to the teacher. Because if
you did, if you asked too many questions, you were kind of seen as argumentative
and disrespectful. So it wasn't really something that that was acceptable to do.
(02:57):
So, you know, you got punished sometimes if you kind of were out of line.
And I remember there were monitors that kind of make sure that you kind of
kept the order in the classroom. So there was this kind of like law and
order to how things were done. And then our family moved to New York City,
and that was really a chasm of difference for me. And I think about the
idea that when I started getting to know people, making friends,
and going to school here, that you could challenge your teachers. You can
(03:20):
actually talk to people in positions of authority and you can actually say a different
opinion, right? And I remember seeing that in the classroom was
profound for me. It was just like it was kind of disorienting because you're not
used to seeing that. You're not used to seeing someone interacting with someone
in a position of authority in that way. So I think those were the early
touch points of when I started to experience cross cultural
(03:43):
dissonance in a sense in my own life. And really, throughout my own life,
as I've journeyed on with my career and, of course, as I've been doing consulting
work for over 20 years and helping organizations and leaders navigate and
recognize these differences, it's been very much a part of what I do because
I've lived this journey too. Right? So I've walked in your shoes. I know how
hard it is. And trying to give them some tools and some framing for making
(04:04):
sense of that disorientation that might happen. It reminds me of a client that I
had last year, and he was white
caucasian, 6 foot 4, and he's the one
of the main partners in the firm. And his team
was largely a lot of Koreans, Taiwanese, and
very respectful. And he had a hard time because he's like, why
(04:27):
are they not taking initiative? Why are they not speaking out and telling
me if they have an issue or whatever? But then again, their
culture Yeah. That's not how they grew up. And so here they are trying to
be respectful. It's kind of funny because we when we think about like core
values, company values, and values like being respectful, You
gotta define what that means because everybody has a different understanding
(04:49):
about what that looks like. Someone says it's just, you know, it's disrespectful
to speak out where somebody else gets frustrated like in this case. And so it
was helping him to understand their perspective and walk in
their shoes and really understand how he could support
them and not necessarily forcing them to change, but
inviting them into a new possibility. In this environment, we
(05:11):
welcome it, and we want your input. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
And as much as his colleagues and team members were dealing
with the cultural fluency, he probably had to go through his own experience of
how can I practice cultural fluency in my own leadership? How do
I understand my own biases about what I
expect from other people so that I can engage with people who are not like
(05:34):
me in a more effective way? So I I think it's great that he, at
least one, recognized it. And hopefully, he thought about what he might do
or how he might respond in a different way. Yeah. Not everybody gets there.
It's true. And I think initially, he wasn't aware of it until
we made him aware of that and saying, hey, you know, maybe it's not just
that they are not taking the initiative. It's just not looking the
(05:56):
way that you expect it to. And I've had that before with other
clients where they say it's interesting. Yeah. And it's always been this
cultural difference where they're like, I don't know if this person
is fully committed. And it's like, oh my gosh. I don't know what else
they can do to tell you that they're committed
because they're giving you their all. Yeah. And it just doesn't look like what
(06:18):
you're expecting because your style is different. And
oftentimes, this also happens between entrepreneurs and maybe somebody who has
like an employee mindset too, because some entrepreneurs are, you know, they're the
flavor of the day. Right? Like every day is a new idea and note today,
we're going here and, oh, forget that. We're going over here and that's not good
leadership, of course, but it happens. And it's bringing that together
(06:40):
and creating some kind of successful cohesiveness
within that team. So talk about what your experience has been because I know you
work with large companies and helping them with this
cultural fluency. Where do you start with that If
let's say there's a company that I don't know. Maybe they hire you and they're
like, we're having trouble here. Like, where do you begin in that process to
(07:02):
even making them aware of that? We kind of have to figure things out. Because
by the time that they contact somebody on the outside, things are going on.
Yes. Things have happened, mistakes are made, misunderstandings have
happened. All sorts of stuff could have gone down by the time they
actually say, you know, maybe we can use an outsider. And I'm sure you get
similar inquiries from a leadership side to support you. And so I would
(07:24):
say no matter where they are in that journey of
cultural fluency and understanding how to navigate that, I go in
wherever they are and then we start with kind of, you know, taking a snapshot
of where they are. Like, where are they in this process? Do they really recognize
the issue for what it is? Do they not even know what it is that
they're walking into? Or are they so far behind that we need to do some
(07:44):
repair? So, I think for me, it doesn't really matter what I walk into,
but it's really helping us to understand, but also having them
see. Sometimes it's helpful for me to be a mirror for them to say, Here's
how you're dealing with it. Here's where you are in your mindset. So that we
can figure out, what are the things we can do as an intervention from the
outside, but what can you do on the inside to ensure that these processes
(08:05):
are set in place so that leaders are set up to succeed in the future?
You know, you ask about where do we even start? I think it just depends
on where they are. And of course, we work with leaders to determine
what skills are needed, both in groups and 1 on 1, to go to the
next step. But that's a great question. Where do we even start? It's
always good when people when they feel like we need help and we can't do
it by ourselves because we don't have the resources and or knowledge or
(08:29):
insight to do that. Now, obviously, it's both sides, right? Having a greater
understanding of how to work together effectively. So
once you've established where they're at and
where you're starting from, what are some of the most common
things that come up and how do you deal with those
issues? Yeah. You talk about misunderstandings and things that
(08:51):
yeah. I think a lot of times people don't know what's cultural and
what's not. So, you know, there were times when I was
approached by, let's say, the head of HR of a business or something
because it was a global line of business that was going through something and they
were having issues. They They didn't know what the issues were, but they were having
issues. And so and it was impacting the business, whether it was misdelivery
(09:12):
deadlines, whether it was huge conflicts that were causing
disconnects across different lines of business. So that's kind of
common because a lot of times you don't know what's happening and you can't always
diagnose that from the inside. So for us, probably,
that's an easy way to start the conversation. In other
situations, we do get engaged by diversity initiatives,
(09:33):
where companies are trying to create a more inclusive work culture. And
so, part of building that is building cross cultural effectiveness and
cultural fluency. So, I feel like where people reach out to us, it's different and
varied, but at typical places, there's something going on. We can't
handle it from our normal organizational initiatives,
and let's figure out what Now, some of your books are geared also
(09:55):
to this idea of helping from the other
side. Somebody who's an aspiring leader and they
want to be promoted, they want to move up through the ranks, and
maybe they're being misunderstood and they need some tools
to be able to assert themselves more to bring out
bring all of what they have to offer to the table?
(10:17):
So if somebody was listening, and they were in that
position, what would you tell them? So actually, my most recent book, Leadership Tokyo
for Asians, talks a lot about when you're not from the dominant culture
of an organization or of a cultural environment, how do you bring
yourself to the workplace in the best possible way, in the most authentic way
that you can? I would say it's gonna require figuring out a little bit of
(10:39):
the digging deep part, right? Because at some point, in order to bring more of
yourself, my whole part 2 of the book is about bringing your full self to
the workplace. And there's chapters in it that really are a lot of
self assessment exercises to understand who you really are. What are your
values? Because at some point, if you wanna be authentic, you have to know what
you stand for. If you don't know, then you wanna spend some time thinking about
(11:00):
that and reflecting on that. And if you don't know, how do you discover that?
How do you start to examine what are the things that are not negotiable for
me that are truly important? And how can we bring more of those things
that's inside that we've been developing out to the people in our universe, whether that's
our family members, our team members, the people who should recognize me and
see me for who I am as well? So I would say that's a really
(11:21):
important place where we do a lot of digging deep and looking at self assessment
activities. I have an activity in the book that looks at kind of
reconciling your values with your organization. So it helps you think about
your cultural values. What were you raised with? And I actually share
sample leadership model of someone I worked with that was an Asian American,
Korean American person like me. And really, there was a sense of that core
(11:43):
values that he was raised with in his family. And he started with that. And
then he started to identify what other aspects of his background he
wanted to demonstrate in himself. I would say that is a really important start,
because it's talked about a lot. People often talk about, well, you gotta be yourself,
you gotta bring your authentic self if you want to be successful. And I hear
that everywhere, But how does that look for someone for whom maybe it's
(12:04):
difficult for people to accept you for yourself if you do come with a
different set of cultural values or experience or show up in a different way? So
I think that there needs to be some aspect of centering of that
and grounding in order to begin that conversation of, yes, this is who I
am. I can adapt, right? And I can do that with different parties of people
I work with. But at the end of the day, this is how I'm going
(12:25):
to do it. It's not going to look like the neighbor that's sitting next to
me, or my coworker or my boss even. And how do you communicate that?
Also, let's say, for example, when you talk about what you stand for. There's
a way that you do things and you're saying so maybe give us like a
specific example of something that someone would stand for and
say, this is what I stand for, and these are my values
(12:47):
around that. How do I align those values with the company
values and then articulate that to supervisor or
somebody that I'm reporting to to say, this is
who I stand for and I will get the results you're looking for.
I'm just gonna do it this particular way. Yeah. I think you need to think
about your manager and how supportive he or she is of who you
(13:08):
are. Right? I think that's a starting point. We we like to assume people have
the best of intentions, but times people work for people who don't necessarily believe that.
Right? They might just say, well, if you wanna be successful here, you've gotta do
it like this. Right. Or you've gotta fit into our system of doing things. But
if you have been able to get results and you've been effective, whether it's
with, you know, in a commercial sense or being effective with people
(13:30):
or getting projects accomplished in a way that only you can do it, then
I think that's really kind of worth asserting. And I mentioned the manager part because,
yes, as much as some managers are not as supportive and they're more rigid, most
of the time, you'll have a manager that would be at least willing to listen
to that. So I think it's demonstrating it, right, and showing it. And at
some point, giving evidence of that when you have your 1 on 1, when you
(13:50):
have the conversations about feedback well. Because if you can't demonstrate it, right, if you
can't show that you're able to be effective in a variety of settings, then it's
not gonna work. Because if people are saying things about, for example, if people are
saying comments about your executive presence or how you come across perhaps
that it's not working, But you know that you're being effective, right? And
that you've gotten all these clients and you've had really positive results in
(14:12):
different places. That's something that you need to kind of convey to them. Well, and
that's right. Yeah. It's the articulating your value, the
asset that you are to the to the organization. And I think
oftentimes, unfortunately, managers, leaders, I'll say
managers because there's a difference, is that a lot of
times, they're just trying to get the work done. And like you said, it's like
(14:34):
just do it this way because this is the way that we
always do it. And yet I make that distinction with the leaders
who are about empowering people and then creating environments where they're actually
expanding people and allowing people to bring the best version of themselves
forward where, you know, you realize that you get paid for
results. I mean, like, does it really matter to an extent? Obviously,
(14:57):
there's representing the brand well, there's integrity to that. All of
that being said, of course. But in terms of the how
to get it actually accomplished, we get paid for results, right?
Yeah. It's not about the amount of hours that you put into it. That's right.
And so I think that's important. I think it's also finding out whatever
your role is, right? Whatever your function is, whatever your managerial responsibility
(15:18):
is, It's finding out, like, what exactly does being effective in that
job look like for the people in your world, right, your stakeholders?
I think that's really important. But it's easy to be kind of, whatever,
shortsighted or having a very narrow view of, like, this is what I have to
do in my job, and this is what I have to get done. But in
essence, maybe there's some other important things about what you do that need to
(15:38):
be done or that need to be demonstrated to other people. And I think sometimes
people miss that. And or maybe it's in their job description in a certain way
as well, right? Maybe this is something that's on their review. But there is kind
of a core aspect of who they are and what they do that need to
be demonstrated to other people. And I think that's something we need to figure out.
And also, if someone is evaluating you, someone is
(15:59):
assessing you for whatever that is, they're looking for that.
They're looking for certain things, and I think it's important for you to figure that
out. It's a hard thing to talk about here because it's not tangible necessarily for
every job. But if you work in human resources, for example, and you have all
these different functions you play, let's say you're in a talent acquisition role, is your
job to fill job, right, and fill opening requisitions? But is there a
(16:20):
deeper responsibility you have that makes you effective at what you
do to do that in a prior life undergraduate and MBA recruiting
efforts? And so I knew that some were more effective than others. And it was
not just about getting jobs filled, and filling seats and job recs.
There's a lot more to that, that if you can unlock how to do it
really well, that you're gonna be seen as a value added player. I just wanted
(16:42):
to add that sometimes it's hard for people to figure that out. Right?
Yeah. I'm glad you shared that even that as as an example.
Because, yeah, I think a lot of it is mismanaged expectations here.
Somebody's saying, well, this is my job. My job description says fill the role
or fill the spots. And yet what
has not been perhaps communicated effectively or
(17:04):
interpreted translated on the other side is that
it's really about developing a team and effective high
performing team that has this particular culture, like
we're changing the culture, or we're elevating it or whatever we're
doing. And maybe that's the bigger picture. So I think it's
also in that understanding what
(17:26):
is the bigger mission of the company, and what each
role. And that's for all of us. Anyone who is look
as a coach, as a consultant, somebody who's going in, I need to
understand what their mission is and their vision. They may
say, hey. I want you to come in and do this workshop on x, y,
and z. And it's like, well, okay. So how does this
(17:48):
fit into the bigger picture so that I understand? Because
if all I do is this and I don't understand this, I'm probably going
to miss the mark. Right. Absolutely. So I think about one quality
even as we were looking at that function is, do you know the business cold?
Yeah. Can you convey that to the candidates that you're meeting to the jobs that
you're filling? I think that's something that may not be articulately
(18:11):
stated in a job description, but that's probably a really important part of your job.
Yes. And how I demonstrate it may be different from how you demonstrate it, Nicole,
but it has to be something that is core and I saw as a really
core thing that needed to be there. So, anyway, I just I just thought it's
important to talk about in light of being culturally fluent, that you're doing that with
the right context and you're knowing how to be adaptive with the core
(18:33):
things that people are looking for, that you're shaping it in the words that they
need to know. Yeah. Yeah. It's translating it. We're talking about
fluency, translating it into a way that even
your manager or leader will understand.
It's like you're translating. You're basically that's part being able can you
articulate your value proposition, just like an
(18:55):
entrepreneur does, I always say, you know, like, we all own our own company. It's
called you, Inc. Heather hedges wrote a book many years ago on this
topic, and we all own our own company. It's you, Inc. And whether
we're going and, you know, acquiring 10 clients
or 50 clients or one client who's gonna pay
us our full salary, either way, we need to
(19:17):
understand how we bring that value proposition. What's our
unique selling proposition? What's our value proposition that we bring to the table?
Absolutely. Because that's what people pay for. So so good. Let's shift
gears. Let's talk about taking care of yourself and looking inward.
And I know that you've had bit of a challenging year personally
dealing with the loss of your father and my condolences
(19:40):
to you on that. And then launching a book and
doing all the other things, how have you been able to take care of yourself
in that process? Thank you, Nicole. And when you mentioned my father, I just
kind of like softened because he was such a great guy. So the topic
of taking care of myself has, for me, been my own learning experience
too. Because 20 years ago, I probably didn't do that as readily. I
(20:02):
was probably as hard charging as the next business person
next to me. And I didn't take that many breaks. I didn't think I needed
that many breaks. I think the first time I realized that
grief and sadness and all of those emotions that come along with
losing someone happened for the first time, probably when I lost my mom
about 5 years ago. And I dealt with that with kind of the
(20:24):
suddenness of it and that you write the eulogy, you meet with all
the family members when they come to the memorial service, and I do all that.
And you go through all that. You feel like you've grieved. But in reality,
I hadn't fully processed that. And later that year and
then COVID hit, I was doing a lot of work, I was doing everything virtually,
and I just kind of hit a wall. There was a time when I just
(20:45):
felt so burnt out, and I started to feel very heavy, like
my body felt heavy in very weird ways. And I started to realize, you know,
I never really processed the passing of my mother, who's a profound
figure in my life, and she was such a selfless, giving person until the time
she passed. And it was just something that was just kind of took over me.
And so I started getting grief counseling. It's something that I've had
(21:07):
regularly, and it just kind of made me realize the importance of taking
breaks, whether it's completely taking a break when I need it and trying to
incorporate times of rest and times of reflection
throughout the day. So that's kind of what it was. And then, of course, this
year, as you say, losing my dad, it was hard too. I think in some
ways, I was closer to my dad. He was probably more like me in
(21:27):
personality or I was more like him. And it was just a lot that he
taught me. And he was the original girl dad. He had only 2 daughters
in a culture and a time that favored sons, but he never treated
us any differently. He always made us feel like we could pursue anything
that we wanted to. He always, always hoped for the best in us. So I
think for me, losing him was also another huge loss. So in a
(21:50):
way, this year was it has been a kind of a season of grief and
joy. You know, it was wonderful to get the book out and all that. But
in the background, it was this, you know, my dad couldn't be here to share
in that with me as well. Yeah. So for me, it's not such something I
tell my clients and I share with people who I'm working with. But I'm hopefully
trying to live that out too and being mindful that the grief does reside in
my body too. And I need to hear and listen to that and not ignore
(22:13):
it, which is what I typically did in the past. It wasn't something that I
attended to. It's interesting because when my parents
passed away, my dad passed away first and then my mom. And when
my mom passed away, there was also some other stuff going on. I got divorced
in that same time frame. And so it was about 2
months after my mom had died where the divorce was finalized.
(22:35):
I found out it was finalized. And here I am. I'm a
driven like, you know, driven, focused, type a,
get it done. And a lot of my friends are as well.
And I remember somebody specifically saying to me, Nicole
power through this, you're gonna be fine. You just keep going through. And I was
like, yeah. You know, that's not actually what I need right
(22:57):
now. I need a minute. It's been a crazy season
of a lot of things, and I just need some time. And so often,
I think we don't give ourselves the permission to do that because
we think we need to hustle and grind and push forward
and breakthrough and all of those nice
catchy phrases. And I think that's why we have a lot of
(23:20):
leaders that are disconnected emotionally and
psychologically from their teams is
because that's what they feel that they've needed to do. And
maybe that's what they've needed to do to keep the business going and
to continue on in that role rather than being able
to take the time and grief is such an interesting thing is
(23:42):
we're not actually taught how to grieve in society. I mean, I've had
guests on the show, Dan Dechini talked about losing his grandson.
It was a freak accident. And then he's a transformational leader. He brought
his whole family. So what did you do? And he said, I brought our whole
family together. And we lived in this, we rented a place, and we stayed
in this place for 2 months, and just were being with each
(24:04):
other. You never hear people like people do that. Right?
I love that. Yeah. So powerful. The visual and the actual act. Yeah.
That's Yes. Yes. Really beautiful. And to walk through that
process because what I emotionally,
(24:27):
people that are, we talk about bringing all of you to the workplace, People that
are when you talk about bringing all of you to the workplace, all
of you to what you do, but if that very important piece
has been shut off, then you're not able to do that. And so
I've had clients that are literally trying to figure out what their life purpose is,
and they can't figure out their life purpose, because they're so frozen in
time because something happened years ago that they've never
(24:51):
dealt with. And so to give ourselves permission, we talk
about whole workplace, whole person workplaces, and all that,
really to give people the opportunity. It's not about
weakness, but it's about compassion, not at all,
and to really be present with our emotions, because we're
talking about connecting and sensing what people need
(25:13):
and how do we connect more effectively with others.
That's right. And we need to be connected to ourselves before we can even do
that. Oh, for sure. Sure. And to your point, Nicole, I
think because of the grief I've experienced, I think my heart
has become more softened to those who are hurting. Yes. I can say that
too. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I kind of feel for the ones
(25:35):
who are more marginalized or feeling like their voices are not heard. When
someone's going through a hard time, I feel more of the empathy that I used
to feel. So I think that's gotten It's hit a very interesting chord in
me that didn't exist as much before. So I think that's a good thing. There's
some positives that have come out of the loss, and I think I've changed in
that way too. It's a different me than what I was 5 or 6 years
(25:56):
ago. Yeah. I'm glad that I'm still growing, you know, at this point in my
life. Yeah. Well, I think we need to be always growing or
we're dying. Right? There's either one of the 2. And with that in mind, actually,
a great segue. Let's talk about trends and what you
see in business from a cultural standpoint,
even the diversity and where we're at. What do
(26:18):
you see that needs to happen that's not currently present
that needs to be more put forward as it relates to the
work that you do? Yeah. Our mission is to develop culturally fluent leaders
who can make a difference in the world and can bring out the best in
other people. So I would say I think the skills that we're trying
to teach are more important than ever. Because inherently, by trying
(26:40):
to be more effective with people who are not like you, and
that's kind of the muscle that we're training people on, whatever that difference is,
it could be racial or ethnic difference, it could be gender, it could be different
disability, or whatever difference it is that you're trying to solve for. We really need
to kind of lean into the vulnerable side of ourselves, that
we don't know everything. Because you have a totally different way of thinking, and
(27:02):
making decisions, and communicating, and resolving issues. And so I have
to be okay with that. I have to understand that in a deep way, and
I have to try to figure out how to build a bridge with you. So
I think that skill of connecting with and having more empathy
for, and then building and practicing the capability of practicing
this so that I can meet you where you are, I think that's a real
important skill for us right now. And I think it's a real important skill, I
(27:26):
don't know if you have kids, for teenagers and college students and those entering the
workforce more than ever because they're entering into a world that's, you
know, interconnected, they're bombarded by AI, They're dealing with
anxiety issues. I think they're gonna really need more of this skill more
than ever, not just for themselves, but to be better workers, better
partners in the world. So, yeah, I do feel like it's a critical skill that
(27:48):
we need to really invest in. And be ready for the ride. Right? Be ready
for the journey. Yes. And I love that you pointed out, it's like whatever the
differences are. Because a lot of times we think about
diversity in terms of racial diversity or
gender diversity or whatever. But really, it could be
a difference of thought, like personality differences. I've
(28:10):
been teaching personalities for years. Why? Because
understanding it's one thing to know that we think different. And it's another
thing to know how we think different, so that we can
actually build better relationships, and more effective teams.
And no matter where that difference of thought comes
from, whether it is my gender, whether it is my culture, my
(28:32):
upbringing, environment, socio economic,
whatever, or my personality, and my life experience.
We all think differently, and it's to be curious to seek to understand
as opposed to make assumptions or judgments. I think that's
really powerful. As we wrap up here, I'd love to hear, practically
speaking, how do you do this from a standpoint of daily habits? But
(28:55):
specifically, even like as you said, we need to practice these things. What do you
do each day to maintain your presence to this? Because I
know as type a, we're focused. We wanna get results. We wanna move
forward. And it's like, oh, yeah. I need to stop and check-in
and recognize because our biases are so Yeah.
Inherent that we need to actually make a practice of
(29:17):
it. That's a great question. I wanna leave maybe leave
you with 3 pre engagement questions that I would recommend asking
yourself. These are questions that are more self reflective that we can do. I
don't practice this with everybody that I interact with or every issue situation,
but I think it makes sense when you're entering into new situations or going into
a high stakes situation is, and there are these 3 questions. 1 is, what are
(29:39):
they thinking? What could be driving this behavior that I'm seeing that I
don't understand maybe? I'm still trying to make sense of. 2 is, how can I
connect? Right? How will I kind of break the ice? Or how do I build
this connection or relationship? And 3, how do I lead with an air of
curiosity and not of judgment about the difference that I notice or difference?
So I think these are more questions versus things that I do. But I think
(30:01):
it just allows someone to slow down. It allows someone to think about
what are my assumptions? And before I say something, before I do
something, how can I think through that? And it just takes 5, 10 minutes to
think about. And maybe even if it's to think about, like, you know what? I
think I need to do more homework here. That is a good direction to take
if you if you think that's what it is. So actually, I talk about that
in my second book, but I do mention it in many of the conversations that
(30:23):
we have with people. Good. That's good. It's that seek to understand and actually be
present rather than being reactive because I think part of
the challenges is that we are jumping into and because of the
busy pace of business right now, we're moving on to the next meeting, the
next meeting, next Zoom, whatever it is. That's right. We're just in it,
and we're not taking that time. So just that habit of
(30:45):
saying, like, what are they thinking? How can I connect? How can I
understand and be curious? That is a good practice, you know,
just before you jump on the next call, or the next jump into the next
meeting, just stop and think for a moment so that you can be responsive
versus reactive. That's right. You know, we all imagine if
everybody did this, oh, my goodness, before every conference call or
(31:08):
something. Wow, it would be different. Well, because most of us
what we do is unless we are made aware of this,
we operate like we are the center of our own universe. And so
we go into the meeting, or any situation at
home, at work, wherever. And it's about
us. And we're very self oriented, and we're looking
(31:30):
at it through our own perspective for the most part. Yeah. Most
of us. So to stop and check-in and realize what if
it wasn't about me? What if it was not about
my opinion, my expectations are, and why they're not
doing this to me? I get actually, not to go and that's a whole other
podcast, but to talk about how often even in
(31:52):
relationally, personally, people will say, you know, he's not or she's
not. And it's like, okay. Well, hang on a sec. I was doing a workshop
once on personality dynamics and I just had this thought
and I said, oftentimes, we're frustrated with other people. And that
frustration is really based on us thinking
that they like I'm frustrated because this person is not doing what
(32:14):
I think they should be doing. And who am I to tell them
and to expect that they're gonna do things my way? And so it's
like just stop and check. Why are you frustrated right now? Is it
because they're not doing what you think they should be doing? Who are you to
put that on them? I don't, you know, manager, leader, but literally, we're
not looking for drones. We're not looking for robots here. We're looking for
(32:37):
people to bring their whole person to the conversation.
Think about what they're doing. Yeah. The unique
perspective. If everybody thinks the same, it's kind of like I've said,
even in relationships, it's like, if you both think exactly the same, one of you
is unnecessary. It's just like, oh, is this
fun? Yeah. So that's where it makes it interesting. Imagine
(32:59):
if we were all the same, oh, my goodness, it would be so boring. And
we would have so many gaps in
things that we're missing out on. Oh, absolutely. So it's so
important that diversity is so important that we bring
that to the table. It's like, imagine if you went outside and
all of nature was all just one flower or one
(33:21):
plant, it'd be kind of boring. And it would actually not be even
sustainable. Ecologically, it would not be sustainable that way we
would be missing out on so much. So, you know, again, it's one of those
principles that is applied in many different areas. So And nature. It's
Yeah. True. So this has been such a great conversation, Jane. Thank you so
much. Yeah. We'll make sure that all the links to your books
(33:43):
are in the show notes and your website and social links so
people can reach out to you. Final thought before we wrap up here. Oh, for
me. I would say be kind to yourself. Be kind to
yourself. That's the theme that I've been thinking a lot about because work is
increasingly complex and harder and stressful, and I'm seeing it all
around me. There's just a lot of stress and anxiety everywhere. And I just
(34:05):
think we need to be kind to ourselves, listen to ourselves as we
tackle the stuff that's ahead of us. That's good. I agree. Because we can't pour
from an empty cup. Right? We can't pour. So Absolutely.
Yeah. So I always say leaders of transformation take action. And maybe
that action is being kind to yourself. I mean, it's a starting point.
That's an action. Before you it is an action. Before you can be
(34:27):
kind to others and be able to put something else, you do need to have
something in your cup that you can share with others. And so be kind to
yourself. Thank you for being here, Jane. Thank you to all our listeners
and viewers to being here. I love talking. Yeah. This was such a
pleasure. Such a pleasure. And I think there is so much value and
richness in this and a fresh perspective on this
(34:48):
topic. And so I'm just gonna encourage everyone to go check out your books,
and this is something that they're, you know, interested or if they
have company and they need this kind of support and fluency
in their company to reach out. And as I said, all of the details will
be in the show notes so they can connect. So Thanks so much, Nicole. This
was so much fun. My pleasure. Likewise. Well, thank you for being here. We look
(35:10):
forward to seeing you next week on another episode of the Leaders of Transformation. And
thank you, Jane. Such a pleasure. Thank you for listening to the Leaders of
Transformation podcast with Nicole Jansen. If you're enjoying the
show, please click the follow or subscribe button, and leave a rating and
review wherever you listen to your podcasts. And remember to
join us on social and get connected. Together, we can
(35:33):
make this world a better place for everyone. We'll see you next
time.
Welcome to the Leaders of Transformation Podcast. The number one
show for business leaders and entrepreneurs passionate about uplifting
others and making a greater impact in the world. Now here's
your host, transformational coach, speaker, and business
advisor, Nicole Jansen.
How do we become culturally fluent leaders? Our guest today is Jane
(00:23):
Hyun. She is a global leadership expert and
a trusted coach to Fortune 500 Companies
and an internationally recognized expert in cross
cultural effectiveness, inclusive leadership, and
talent engagement. She is the best selling author of Breaking the
Bamboo Ceiling and co author of Flex, the new
(00:45):
playbook for managing across differences. And this year, she
released a new book called Leadership Toolkit for Asians,
the definitive resource guide for breaking the bamboo ceiling, which is a
sequel to her first book. And so today, we're gonna be talking about cross cultural
leadership and navigating the changing workplace
and, you know, how to close that cultural gap for Asians in corporate
(01:07):
America. And we're also gonna talk about wellness and health and
just really taking care of yourself through this whole process of this
evolving workplace that we live in. So Jane, welcome to the leaders transformation.
We're glad you're here today. Hi, Nicole. It's good to be here with you. Thanks
for having me. It is a pleasure. And before we go any further, I
do wanna do a shout out to Smith publicity because they're the ones who
(01:29):
introduced us. And this show would not be what it is without all the
amazing booking agents and people that recommend amazing guests. So thank you to
them for their introduction, and they're the reason why we're
here. So it's awesome. And I know you know that Ben Gutman, he's a good
friend of yours, and he's been on the show a few months ago. And so
small world. Small world. How we connect with each other. Right? Yeah. Let's talk about
(01:51):
your own life journey and kind of how that influenced the work
that you do today. Yeah. My life, I think, is has been a bit
of a path of different places and travel. I live in New York
City now, as you know, but I grew up in South Korea. So
I had kind of this my first my first formative years of first 8 years
in this profoundly different cultural context. And, you know, I grew up at a
(02:13):
time in Korea where there was very little immigration to South Korea.
Right? It was basically anybody who I grew up with looked like
me. I they had black hair, spoke Korean, and it really
was a kind of a homogeneous environment, monocultural environment. And
those early years kinda shaped me in profound ways. And I
grew up in a school system where you had maybe about 60 kids
(02:36):
and one teacher, no assistant teacher. But it was
absolutely quiet. It was this silent classroom because there was this
profound sense of, you know, when you're learning in the classroom, you're not making a
lot of noise. You're not asking a lot of questions to the teacher. Because if
you did, if you asked too many questions, you were kind of seen as argumentative
and disrespectful. So it wasn't really something that that was acceptable to do.
(02:57):
So, you know, you got punished sometimes if you kind of were out of line.
And I remember there were monitors that kind of make sure that you kind of
kept the order in the classroom. So there was this kind of like law and
order to how things were done. And then our family moved to New York City,
and that was really a chasm of difference for me. And I think about the
idea that when I started getting to know people, making friends,
and going to school here, that you could challenge your teachers. You can
(03:20):
actually talk to people in positions of authority and you can actually say a different
opinion, right? And I remember seeing that in the classroom was
profound for me. It was just like it was kind of disorienting because you're not
used to seeing that. You're not used to seeing someone interacting with someone
in a position of authority in that way. So I think those were the early
touch points of when I started to experience cross cultural
(03:43):
dissonance in a sense in my own life. And really, throughout my own life,
as I've journeyed on with my career and, of course, as I've been doing consulting
work for over 20 years and helping organizations and leaders navigate and
recognize these differences, it's been very much a part of what I do because
I've lived this journey too. Right? So I've walked in your shoes. I know how
hard it is. And trying to give them some tools and some framing for making
(04:04):
sense of that disorientation that might happen. It reminds me of a client that I
had last year, and he was white
caucasian, 6 foot 4, and he's the one
of the main partners in the firm. And his team
was largely a lot of Koreans, Taiwanese, and
very respectful. And he had a hard time because he's like, why
(04:27):
are they not taking initiative? Why are they not speaking out and telling
me if they have an issue or whatever? But then again, their
culture Yeah. That's not how they grew up. And so here they are trying to
be respectful. It's kind of funny because we when we think about like core
values, company values, and values like being respectful, You
gotta define what that means because everybody has a different understanding
(04:49):
about what that looks like. Someone says it's just, you know, it's disrespectful
to speak out where somebody else gets frustrated like in this case. And so it
was helping him to understand their perspective and walk in
their shoes and really understand how he could support
them and not necessarily forcing them to change, but
inviting them into a new possibility. In this environment, we
(05:11):
welcome it, and we want your input. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
And as much as his colleagues and team members were dealing
with the cultural fluency, he probably had to go through his own experience of
how can I practice cultural fluency in my own leadership? How do
I understand my own biases about what I
expect from other people so that I can engage with people who are not like
(05:34):
me in a more effective way? So I I think it's great that he, at
least one, recognized it. And hopefully, he thought about what he might do
or how he might respond in a different way. Yeah. Not everybody gets there.
It's true. And I think initially, he wasn't aware of it until
we made him aware of that and saying, hey, you know, maybe it's not just
that they are not taking the initiative. It's just not looking the
(05:56):
way that you expect it to. And I've had that before with other
clients where they say it's interesting. Yeah. And it's always been this
cultural difference where they're like, I don't know if this person
is fully committed. And it's like, oh my gosh. I don't know what else
they can do to tell you that they're committed
because they're giving you their all. Yeah. And it just doesn't look like what
(06:18):
you're expecting because your style is different. And
oftentimes, this also happens between entrepreneurs and maybe somebody who has
like an employee mindset too, because some entrepreneurs are, you know, they're the
flavor of the day. Right? Like every day is a new idea and note today,
we're going here and, oh, forget that. We're going over here and that's not good
leadership, of course, but it happens. And it's bringing that together
(06:40):
and creating some kind of successful cohesiveness
within that team. So talk about what your experience has been because I know you
work with large companies and helping them with this
cultural fluency. Where do you start with that If
let's say there's a company that I don't know. Maybe they hire you and they're
like, we're having trouble here. Like, where do you begin in that process to
(07:02):
even making them aware of that? We kind of have to figure things out. Because
by the time that they contact somebody on the outside, things are going on.
Yes. Things have happened, mistakes are made, misunderstandings have
happened. All sorts of stuff could have gone down by the time they
actually say, you know, maybe we can use an outsider. And I'm sure you get
similar inquiries from a leadership side to support you. And so I would
(07:24):
say no matter where they are in that journey of
cultural fluency and understanding how to navigate that, I go in
wherever they are and then we start with kind of, you know, taking a snapshot
of where they are. Like, where are they in this process? Do they really recognize
the issue for what it is? Do they not even know what it is that
they're walking into? Or are they so far behind that we need to do some
(07:44):
repair? So, I think for me, it doesn't really matter what I walk into,
but it's really helping us to understand, but also having them
see. Sometimes it's helpful for me to be a mirror for them to say, Here's
how you're dealing with it. Here's where you are in your mindset. So that we
can figure out, what are the things we can do as an intervention from the
outside, but what can you do on the inside to ensure that these processes
(08:05):
are set in place so that leaders are set up to succeed in the future?
You know, you ask about where do we even start? I think it just depends
on where they are. And of course, we work with leaders to determine
what skills are needed, both in groups and 1 on 1, to go to the
next step. But that's a great question. Where do we even start? It's
always good when people when they feel like we need help and we can't do
it by ourselves because we don't have the resources and or knowledge or
(08:29):
insight to do that. Now, obviously, it's both sides, right? Having a greater
understanding of how to work together effectively. So
once you've established where they're at and
where you're starting from, what are some of the most common
things that come up and how do you deal with those
issues? Yeah. You talk about misunderstandings and things that
(08:51):
yeah. I think a lot of times people don't know what's cultural and
what's not. So, you know, there were times when I was
approached by, let's say, the head of HR of a business or something
because it was a global line of business that was going through something and they
were having issues. They They didn't know what the issues were, but they were having
issues. And so and it was impacting the business, whether it was misdelivery
(09:12):
deadlines, whether it was huge conflicts that were causing
disconnects across different lines of business. So that's kind of
common because a lot of times you don't know what's happening and you can't always
diagnose that from the inside. So for us, probably,
that's an easy way to start the conversation. In other
situations, we do get engaged by diversity initiatives,
(09:33):
where companies are trying to create a more inclusive work culture. And
so, part of building that is building cross cultural effectiveness and
cultural fluency. So, I feel like where people reach out to us, it's different and
varied, but at typical places, there's something going on. We can't
handle it from our normal organizational initiatives,
and let's figure out what Now, some of your books are geared also
(09:55):
to this idea of helping from the other
side. Somebody who's an aspiring leader and they
want to be promoted, they want to move up through the ranks, and
maybe they're being misunderstood and they need some tools
to be able to assert themselves more to bring out
bring all of what they have to offer to the table?
(10:17):
So if somebody was listening, and they were in that
position, what would you tell them? So actually, my most recent book, Leadership Tokyo
for Asians, talks a lot about when you're not from the dominant culture
of an organization or of a cultural environment, how do you bring
yourself to the workplace in the best possible way, in the most authentic way
that you can? I would say it's gonna require figuring out a little bit of
(10:39):
the digging deep part, right? Because at some point, in order to bring more of
yourself, my whole part 2 of the book is about bringing your full self to
the workplace. And there's chapters in it that really are a lot of
self assessment exercises to understand who you really are. What are your
values? Because at some point, if you wanna be authentic, you have to know what
you stand for. If you don't know, then you wanna spend some time thinking about
(11:00):
that and reflecting on that. And if you don't know, how do you discover that?
How do you start to examine what are the things that are not negotiable for
me that are truly important? And how can we bring more of those things
that's inside that we've been developing out to the people in our universe, whether that's
our family members, our team members, the people who should recognize me and
see me for who I am as well? So I would say that's a really
(11:21):
important place where we do a lot of digging deep and looking at self assessment
activities. I have an activity in the book that looks at kind of
reconciling your values with your organization. So it helps you think about
your cultural values. What were you raised with? And I actually share
sample leadership model of someone I worked with that was an Asian American,
Korean American person like me. And really, there was a sense of that core
(11:43):
values that he was raised with in his family. And he started with that. And
then he started to identify what other aspects of his background he
wanted to demonstrate in himself. I would say that is a really important start,
because it's talked about a lot. People often talk about, well, you gotta be yourself,
you gotta bring your authentic self if you want to be successful. And I hear
that everywhere, But how does that look for someone for whom maybe it's
(12:04):
difficult for people to accept you for yourself if you do come with a
different set of cultural values or experience or show up in a different way? So
I think that there needs to be some aspect of centering of that
and grounding in order to begin that conversation of, yes, this is who I
am. I can adapt, right? And I can do that with different parties of people
I work with. But at the end of the day, this is how I'm going
(12:25):
to do it. It's not going to look like the neighbor that's sitting next to
me, or my coworker or my boss even. And how do you communicate that?
Also, let's say, for example, when you talk about what you stand for. There's
a way that you do things and you're saying so maybe give us like a
specific example of something that someone would stand for and
say, this is what I stand for, and these are my values
(12:47):
around that. How do I align those values with the company
values and then articulate that to supervisor or
somebody that I'm reporting to to say, this is
who I stand for and I will get the results you're looking for.
I'm just gonna do it this particular way. Yeah. I think you need to think
about your manager and how supportive he or she is of who you
(13:08):
are. Right? I think that's a starting point. We we like to assume people have
the best of intentions, but times people work for people who don't necessarily believe that.
Right? They might just say, well, if you wanna be successful here, you've gotta do
it like this. Right. Or you've gotta fit into our system of doing things. But
if you have been able to get results and you've been effective, whether it's
with, you know, in a commercial sense or being effective with people
(13:30):
or getting projects accomplished in a way that only you can do it, then
I think that's really kind of worth asserting. And I mentioned the manager part because,
yes, as much as some managers are not as supportive and they're more rigid, most
of the time, you'll have a manager that would be at least willing to listen
to that. So I think it's demonstrating it, right, and showing it. And at
some point, giving evidence of that when you have your 1 on 1, when you
(13:50):
have the conversations about feedback well. Because if you can't demonstrate it, right, if you
can't show that you're able to be effective in a variety of settings, then it's
not gonna work. Because if people are saying things about, for example, if people are
saying comments about your executive presence or how you come across perhaps
that it's not working, But you know that you're being effective, right? And
that you've gotten all these clients and you've had really positive results in
(14:12):
different places. That's something that you need to kind of convey to them. Well, and
that's right. Yeah. It's the articulating your value, the
asset that you are to the to the organization. And I think
oftentimes, unfortunately, managers, leaders, I'll say
managers because there's a difference, is that a lot of
times, they're just trying to get the work done. And like you said, it's like
(14:34):
just do it this way because this is the way that we
always do it. And yet I make that distinction with the leaders
who are about empowering people and then creating environments where they're actually
expanding people and allowing people to bring the best version of themselves
forward where, you know, you realize that you get paid for
results. I mean, like, does it really matter to an extent? Obviously,
(14:57):
there's representing the brand well, there's integrity to that. All of
that being said, of course. But in terms of the how
to get it actually accomplished, we get paid for results, right?
Yeah. It's not about the amount of hours that you put into it. That's right.
And so I think that's important. I think it's also finding out whatever
your role is, right? Whatever your function is, whatever your managerial responsibility
(15:18):
is, It's finding out, like, what exactly does being effective in that
job look like for the people in your world, right, your stakeholders?
I think that's really important. But it's easy to be kind of, whatever,
shortsighted or having a very narrow view of, like, this is what I have to
do in my job, and this is what I have to get done. But in
essence, maybe there's some other important things about what you do that need to
(15:38):
be done or that need to be demonstrated to other people. And I think sometimes
people miss that. And or maybe it's in their job description in a certain way
as well, right? Maybe this is something that's on their review. But there is kind
of a core aspect of who they are and what they do that need to
be demonstrated to other people. And I think that's something we need to figure out.
And also, if someone is evaluating you, someone is
(15:59):
assessing you for whatever that is, they're looking for that.
They're looking for certain things, and I think it's important for you to figure that
out. It's a hard thing to talk about here because it's not tangible necessarily for
every job. But if you work in human resources, for example, and you have all
these different functions you play, let's say you're in a talent acquisition role, is your
job to fill job, right, and fill opening requisitions? But is there a
(16:20):
deeper responsibility you have that makes you effective at what you
do to do that in a prior life undergraduate and MBA recruiting
efforts? And so I knew that some were more effective than others. And it was
not just about getting jobs filled, and filling seats and job recs.
There's a lot more to that, that if you can unlock how to do it
really well, that you're gonna be seen as a value added player. I just wanted
(16:42):
to add that sometimes it's hard for people to figure that out. Right?
Yeah. I'm glad you shared that even that as as an example.
Because, yeah, I think a lot of it is mismanaged expectations here.
Somebody's saying, well, this is my job. My job description says fill the role
or fill the spots. And yet what
has not been perhaps communicated effectively or
(17:04):
interpreted translated on the other side is that
it's really about developing a team and effective high
performing team that has this particular culture, like
we're changing the culture, or we're elevating it or whatever we're
doing. And maybe that's the bigger picture. So I think it's
also in that understanding what
(17:26):
is the bigger mission of the company, and what each
role. And that's for all of us. Anyone who is look
as a coach, as a consultant, somebody who's going in, I need to
understand what their mission is and their vision. They may
say, hey. I want you to come in and do this workshop on x, y,
and z. And it's like, well, okay. So how does this
(17:48):
fit into the bigger picture so that I understand? Because
if all I do is this and I don't understand this, I'm probably going
to miss the mark. Right. Absolutely. So I think about one quality
even as we were looking at that function is, do you know the business cold?
Yeah. Can you convey that to the candidates that you're meeting to the jobs that
you're filling? I think that's something that may not be articulately
(18:11):
stated in a job description, but that's probably a really important part of your job.
Yes. And how I demonstrate it may be different from how you demonstrate it, Nicole,
but it has to be something that is core and I saw as a really
core thing that needed to be there. So, anyway, I just I just thought it's
important to talk about in light of being culturally fluent, that you're doing that with
the right context and you're knowing how to be adaptive with the core
(18:33):
things that people are looking for, that you're shaping it in the words that they
need to know. Yeah. Yeah. It's translating it. We're talking about
fluency, translating it into a way that even
your manager or leader will understand.
It's like you're translating. You're basically that's part being able can you
articulate your value proposition, just like an
(18:55):
entrepreneur does, I always say, you know, like, we all own our own company. It's
called you, Inc. Heather hedges wrote a book many years ago on this
topic, and we all own our own company. It's you, Inc. And whether
we're going and, you know, acquiring 10 clients
or 50 clients or one client who's gonna pay
us our full salary, either way, we need to
(19:17):
understand how we bring that value proposition. What's our
unique selling proposition? What's our value proposition that we bring to the table?
Absolutely. Because that's what people pay for. So so good. Let's shift
gears. Let's talk about taking care of yourself and looking inward.
And I know that you've had bit of a challenging year personally
dealing with the loss of your father and my condolences
(19:40):
to you on that. And then launching a book and
doing all the other things, how have you been able to take care of yourself
in that process? Thank you, Nicole. And when you mentioned my father, I just
kind of like softened because he was such a great guy. So the topic
of taking care of myself has, for me, been my own learning experience
too. Because 20 years ago, I probably didn't do that as readily. I
(20:02):
was probably as hard charging as the next business person
next to me. And I didn't take that many breaks. I didn't think I needed
that many breaks. I think the first time I realized that
grief and sadness and all of those emotions that come along with
losing someone happened for the first time, probably when I lost my mom
about 5 years ago. And I dealt with that with kind of the
(20:24):
suddenness of it and that you write the eulogy, you meet with all
the family members when they come to the memorial service, and I do all that.
And you go through all that. You feel like you've grieved. But in reality,
I hadn't fully processed that. And later that year and
then COVID hit, I was doing a lot of work, I was doing everything virtually,
and I just kind of hit a wall. There was a time when I just
(20:45):
felt so burnt out, and I started to feel very heavy, like
my body felt heavy in very weird ways. And I started to realize, you know,
I never really processed the passing of my mother, who's a profound
figure in my life, and she was such a selfless, giving person until the time
she passed. And it was just something that was just kind of took over me.
And so I started getting grief counseling. It's something that I've had
(21:07):
regularly, and it just kind of made me realize the importance of taking
breaks, whether it's completely taking a break when I need it and trying to
incorporate times of rest and times of reflection
throughout the day. So that's kind of what it was. And then, of course, this
year, as you say, losing my dad, it was hard too. I think in some
ways, I was closer to my dad. He was probably more like me in
(21:27):
personality or I was more like him. And it was just a lot that he
taught me. And he was the original girl dad. He had only 2 daughters
in a culture and a time that favored sons, but he never treated
us any differently. He always made us feel like we could pursue anything
that we wanted to. He always, always hoped for the best in us. So I
think for me, losing him was also another huge loss. So in a
(21:50):
way, this year was it has been a kind of a season of grief and
joy. You know, it was wonderful to get the book out and all that. But
in the background, it was this, you know, my dad couldn't be here to share
in that with me as well. Yeah. So for me, it's not such something I
tell my clients and I share with people who I'm working with. But I'm hopefully
trying to live that out too and being mindful that the grief does reside in
my body too. And I need to hear and listen to that and not ignore
(22:13):
it, which is what I typically did in the past. It wasn't something that I
attended to. It's interesting because when my parents
passed away, my dad passed away first and then my mom. And when
my mom passed away, there was also some other stuff going on. I got divorced
in that same time frame. And so it was about 2
months after my mom had died where the divorce was finalized.
(22:35):
I found out it was finalized. And here I am. I'm a
driven like, you know, driven, focused, type a,
get it done. And a lot of my friends are as well.
And I remember somebody specifically saying to me, Nicole
power through this, you're gonna be fine. You just keep going through. And I was
like, yeah. You know, that's not actually what I need right
(22:57):
now. I need a minute. It's been a crazy season
of a lot of things, and I just need some time. And so often,
I think we don't give ourselves the permission to do that because
we think we need to hustle and grind and push forward
and breakthrough and all of those nice
catchy phrases. And I think that's why we have a lot of
(23:20):
leaders that are disconnected emotionally and
psychologically from their teams is
because that's what they feel that they've needed to do. And
maybe that's what they've needed to do to keep the business going and
to continue on in that role rather than being able
to take the time and grief is such an interesting thing is
(23:42):
we're not actually taught how to grieve in society. I mean, I've had
guests on the show, Dan Dechini talked about losing his grandson.
It was a freak accident. And then he's a transformational leader. He brought
his whole family. So what did you do? And he said, I brought our whole
family together. And we lived in this, we rented a place, and we stayed
in this place for 2 months, and just were being with each
(24:04):
other. You never hear people like people do that. Right?
I love that. Yeah. So powerful. The visual and the actual act. Yeah.
That's Yes. Yes. Really beautiful. And to walk through that
process because what I emotionally,
(24:27):
people that are, we talk about bringing all of you to the workplace, People that
are when you talk about bringing all of you to the workplace, all
of you to what you do, but if that very important piece
has been shut off, then you're not able to do that. And so
I've had clients that are literally trying to figure out what their life purpose is,
and they can't figure out their life purpose, because they're so frozen in
time because something happened years ago that they've never
(24:51):
dealt with. And so to give ourselves permission, we talk
about whole workplace, whole person workplaces, and all that,
really to give people the opportunity. It's not about
weakness, but it's about compassion, not at all,
and to really be present with our emotions, because we're
talking about connecting and sensing what people need
(25:13):
and how do we connect more effectively with others.
That's right. And we need to be connected to ourselves before we can even do
that. Oh, for sure. Sure. And to your point, Nicole, I
think because of the grief I've experienced, I think my heart
has become more softened to those who are hurting. Yes. I can say that
too. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I kind of feel for the ones
(25:35):
who are more marginalized or feeling like their voices are not heard. When
someone's going through a hard time, I feel more of the empathy that I used
to feel. So I think that's gotten It's hit a very interesting chord in
me that didn't exist as much before. So I think that's a good thing. There's
some positives that have come out of the loss, and I think I've changed in
that way too. It's a different me than what I was 5 or 6 years
(25:56):
ago. Yeah. I'm glad that I'm still growing, you know, at this point in my
life. Yeah. Well, I think we need to be always growing or
we're dying. Right? There's either one of the 2. And with that in mind, actually,
a great segue. Let's talk about trends and what you
see in business from a cultural standpoint,
even the diversity and where we're at. What do
(26:18):
you see that needs to happen that's not currently present
that needs to be more put forward as it relates to the
work that you do? Yeah. Our mission is to develop culturally fluent leaders
who can make a difference in the world and can bring out the best in
other people. So I would say I think the skills that we're trying
to teach are more important than ever. Because inherently, by trying
(26:40):
to be more effective with people who are not like you, and
that's kind of the muscle that we're training people on, whatever that difference is,
it could be racial or ethnic difference, it could be gender, it could be different
disability, or whatever difference it is that you're trying to solve for. We really need
to kind of lean into the vulnerable side of ourselves, that
we don't know everything. Because you have a totally different way of thinking, and
(27:02):
making decisions, and communicating, and resolving issues. And so I have
to be okay with that. I have to understand that in a deep way, and
I have to try to figure out how to build a bridge with you. So
I think that skill of connecting with and having more empathy
for, and then building and practicing the capability of practicing
this so that I can meet you where you are, I think that's a real
important skill for us right now. And I think it's a real important skill, I
(27:26):
don't know if you have kids, for teenagers and college students and those entering the
workforce more than ever because they're entering into a world that's, you
know, interconnected, they're bombarded by AI, They're dealing with
anxiety issues. I think they're gonna really need more of this skill more
than ever, not just for themselves, but to be better workers, better
partners in the world. So, yeah, I do feel like it's a critical skill that
(27:48):
we need to really invest in. And be ready for the ride. Right? Be ready
for the journey. Yes. And I love that you pointed out, it's like whatever the
differences are. Because a lot of times we think about
diversity in terms of racial diversity or
gender diversity or whatever. But really, it could be
a difference of thought, like personality differences. I've
(28:10):
been teaching personalities for years. Why? Because
understanding it's one thing to know that we think different. And it's another
thing to know how we think different, so that we can
actually build better relationships, and more effective teams.
And no matter where that difference of thought comes
from, whether it is my gender, whether it is my culture, my
(28:32):
upbringing, environment, socio economic,
whatever, or my personality, and my life experience.
We all think differently, and it's to be curious to seek to understand
as opposed to make assumptions or judgments. I think that's
really powerful. As we wrap up here, I'd love to hear, practically
speaking, how do you do this from a standpoint of daily habits? But
(28:55):
specifically, even like as you said, we need to practice these things. What do you
do each day to maintain your presence to this? Because I
know as type a, we're focused. We wanna get results. We wanna move
forward. And it's like, oh, yeah. I need to stop and check-in
and recognize because our biases are so Yeah.
Inherent that we need to actually make a practice of
(29:17):
it. That's a great question. I wanna leave maybe leave
you with 3 pre engagement questions that I would recommend asking
yourself. These are questions that are more self reflective that we can do. I
don't practice this with everybody that I interact with or every issue situation,
but I think it makes sense when you're entering into new situations or going into
a high stakes situation is, and there are these 3 questions. 1 is, what are
(29:39):
they thinking? What could be driving this behavior that I'm seeing that I
don't understand maybe? I'm still trying to make sense of. 2 is, how can I
connect? Right? How will I kind of break the ice? Or how do I build
this connection or relationship? And 3, how do I lead with an air of
curiosity and not of judgment about the difference that I notice or difference?
So I think these are more questions versus things that I do. But I think
(30:01):
it just allows someone to slow down. It allows someone to think about
what are my assumptions? And before I say something, before I do
something, how can I think through that? And it just takes 5, 10 minutes to
think about. And maybe even if it's to think about, like, you know what? I
think I need to do more homework here. That is a good direction to take
if you if you think that's what it is. So actually, I talk about that
in my second book, but I do mention it in many of the conversations that
(30:23):
we have with people. Good. That's good. It's that seek to understand and actually be
present rather than being reactive because I think part of
the challenges is that we are jumping into and because of the
busy pace of business right now, we're moving on to the next meeting, the
next meeting, next Zoom, whatever it is. That's right. We're just in it,
and we're not taking that time. So just that habit of
(30:45):
saying, like, what are they thinking? How can I connect? How can I
understand and be curious? That is a good practice, you know,
just before you jump on the next call, or the next jump into the next
meeting, just stop and think for a moment so that you can be responsive
versus reactive. That's right. You know, we all imagine if
everybody did this, oh, my goodness, before every conference call or
(31:08):
something. Wow, it would be different. Well, because most of us
what we do is unless we are made aware of this,
we operate like we are the center of our own universe. And so
we go into the meeting, or any situation at
home, at work, wherever. And it's about
us. And we're very self oriented, and we're looking
(31:30):
at it through our own perspective for the most part. Yeah. Most
of us. So to stop and check-in and realize what if
it wasn't about me? What if it was not about
my opinion, my expectations are, and why they're not
doing this to me? I get actually, not to go and that's a whole other
podcast, but to talk about how often even in
(31:52):
relationally, personally, people will say, you know, he's not or she's
not. And it's like, okay. Well, hang on a sec. I was doing a workshop
once on personality dynamics and I just had this thought
and I said, oftentimes, we're frustrated with other people. And that
frustration is really based on us thinking
that they like I'm frustrated because this person is not doing what
(32:14):
I think they should be doing. And who am I to tell them
and to expect that they're gonna do things my way? And so it's
like just stop and check. Why are you frustrated right now? Is it
because they're not doing what you think they should be doing? Who are you to
put that on them? I don't, you know, manager, leader, but literally, we're
not looking for drones. We're not looking for robots here. We're looking for
(32:37):
people to bring their whole person to the conversation.
Think about what they're doing. Yeah. The unique
perspective. If everybody thinks the same, it's kind of like I've said,
even in relationships, it's like, if you both think exactly the same, one of you
is unnecessary. It's just like, oh, is this
fun? Yeah. So that's where it makes it interesting. Imagine
(32:59):
if we were all the same, oh, my goodness, it would be so boring. And
we would have so many gaps in
things that we're missing out on. Oh, absolutely. So it's so
important that diversity is so important that we bring
that to the table. It's like, imagine if you went outside and
all of nature was all just one flower or one
(33:21):
plant, it'd be kind of boring. And it would actually not be even
sustainable. Ecologically, it would not be sustainable that way we
would be missing out on so much. So, you know, again, it's one of those
principles that is applied in many different areas. So And nature. It's
Yeah. True. So this has been such a great conversation, Jane. Thank you so
much. Yeah. We'll make sure that all the links to your books
(33:43):
are in the show notes and your website and social links so
people can reach out to you. Final thought before we wrap up here. Oh, for
me. I would say be kind to yourself. Be kind to
yourself. That's the theme that I've been thinking a lot about because work is
increasingly complex and harder and stressful, and I'm seeing it all
around me. There's just a lot of stress and anxiety everywhere. And I just
(34:05):
think we need to be kind to ourselves, listen to ourselves as we
tackle the stuff that's ahead of us. That's good. I agree. Because we can't pour
from an empty cup. Right? We can't pour. So Absolutely.
Yeah. So I always say leaders of transformation take action. And maybe
that action is being kind to yourself. I mean, it's a starting point.
That's an action. Before you it is an action. Before you can be
(34:27):
kind to others and be able to put something else, you do need to have
something in your cup that you can share with others. And so be kind to
yourself. Thank you for being here, Jane. Thank you to all our listeners
and viewers to being here. I love talking. Yeah. This was such a
pleasure. Such a pleasure. And I think there is so much value and
richness in this and a fresh perspective on this
(34:48):
topic. And so I'm just gonna encourage everyone to go check out your books,
and this is something that they're, you know, interested or if they
have company and they need this kind of support and fluency
in their company to reach out. And as I said, all of the details will
be in the show notes so they can connect. So Thanks so much, Nicole. This
was so much fun. My pleasure. Likewise. Well, thank you for being here. We look
(35:10):
forward to seeing you next week on another episode of the Leaders of Transformation. And
thank you, Jane. Such a pleasure. Thank you for listening to the Leaders of
Transformation podcast with Nicole Jansen. If you're enjoying the
show, please click the follow or subscribe button, and leave a rating and
review wherever you listen to your podcasts. And remember to
join us on social and get connected. Together, we can
(35:33):
make this world a better place for everyone. We'll see you next
time.
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