June 3, 2025 • 24 mins
In this episode, Joe is joined by Will Ahmed, CEO & Founder of Whoop and Arthur Wong, Managing Director at S&P Global Ratings. Discussion covered the evolution of healthcare, the power of wearable technology and Will’s experience with top athletes like Cristiano Ronaldo and their health journey.
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Episode Transcript
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Joseph Cass:
Hello, and welcome. (00:07):
undefined
My name is Joe Cass, Senior Director at S&P Global Ratings and the host and the creator
of the Leaders podcast. On this episode, we have Will Ahmed, Founder and CEO of WHOOP,
and Art Wong, Managing Director at S&P Global Ratings. A quick reminder that the views of the
external guests are their views alone, and they do not represent the views of S&P Global Ratings.
Joseph Cass: Okay. Let's get into it. Will, can you give (00:29):
undefined
an overview of what WHOOP is? Your inspiration to start the company and how your background as
a Harvard athlete shaped its development.Will Ahmed:
Absolutely. Thank you for having me. So our mission at WHOOP is to unlock human performance
and health span, which means we really want to help human beings live longer and perform better.
(00:54):
We build wearable technology, software, hardware, data that's really designed to
help an individual understand their bodies.I got into this space what's now about 12,
13 years ago. As a college athlete, I was someone who used to overtrain. I felt like
I didn't know what I was doing to my body. And I just got very interested in physiology,
(01:17):
which is to say, what can you measure about the human body to really understand it,
to understand performance, to understand health.And I did a ton of physiology research while I was
a student, read hundreds of medical papers and started this company WHOOP, while I was really
a college kid out of a dorm room. And it's been quite a journey over the last 13 years. I think
(01:40):
we've evolved from being a company that focused on really high-end athletic performance, so working
with many of the world's best athletes, to over time, now being a company that's used by really
a wide array of consumers looking to improve their health and improve their performance.
(02:02):
And just recently, we announced a whole new suite of hardware and software features, the WHOOP 5.0,
the WHOOP MG. We just came out with some of our first medically cleared features. So we can get
more into that. But I think the evolution of the company has been one of going from really
the highest performing athletes in the world to now everyday people who are looking to live
(02:25):
longer and healthier.Joseph Cass:
Art, can you let everyone know your background, what you do at S&P Global Ratings and also your
areas of expertise?Arthur Wong:
I'm Arthur Wong, Managing Director here at S&P Corporate Ratings. I'm the sector lead for the
health care team, and our team assigns corporate credit ratings for the health care industry.
(02:46):
We cover over 180 companies, and the range includes health care providers, pharmaceutical
names and medical device companies as well. Our ratings are based on several different factors,
but it's mainly based on our assessment of a company's competitive position,
combined with what we believe how strong their financial policies are and what their financial
strength is.Joseph Cass:
(03:07):
Will, what's the most common mistake people make when analyzing their WHOOP data?
Will Ahmed: Well, I think, first of all, (03:14):
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I would say a general mistake that the population makes is not collecting this data in the first
place. I mean it's pretty amazing that wearable technology exists today in a form factor at a
price point that is pretty accessible for a large number of people and in turn, can really help you
(03:34):
understand what's going on inside of your body.It can help you get healthier, it can help you
identify whether you're getting sick, it can help you screen your heart now. And so these
are tools that are really at our fingertips and I think should be taken advantage of. I think
when people first start using WHOOP, one mistake they may make is just to overreact to the data.
(03:56):
Oh, I had a red recovery today. What does that mean? Oh my gosh, I'm anxious about that. Or
I had a green recovery. Oh, I got to go do a bunch of stuff. I think that it's important
to recognize that WHOOP is a tool. And like any tool, it takes a minute to learn how to use it.
And I think you want to understand today's data as much as you want to send trends of the data.
(04:21):
A big theme for WHOOP is looking at data over the period of 30 days and understanding what
data today means in that context. And so it's less about the raw reading, and it's more about
understanding what progression someone's on.Are they getting slightly healthier? Are they
trending up? Are they getting slightly less healthy? Are they getting enough sleep or
(04:42):
not enough sleep? And so in general, we see a common mistake is to overreact to the data.
But I think for the most part, people who are now using this tool every day feel quite
empowered by it. And rather than understanding your health from a health and fitness magazine,
you can just have real-time super accurate data at your fingertips to interact with.
Joseph Cass: Art, can you let us (05:07):
undefined
know the main trends and drivers that are really top of mind for health care investors right now?
Arthur Wong: Sure. I think that the big focus for (05:15):
undefined
health care from an industry standpoint, but not just from an industry standpoint, but also from a
societal and legislative standpoint is the rising cost of health care. You see that -- and it's
coming from the growth in demand, there's a growth in the population and just also the increasingly
aging population that we have around the world.And the big challenge is how do we control those
(05:38):
costs while ensuring a high quality of care. And that growth as well, that demand has also led to
burnout amongst nurses, amongst doctors. I think everybody knows -- you've read
of a shortage in health care labor.And just to put it into perspective,
health care spending in the U.S. consumes 18% of GDP. And that's almost $1 in every $5 that's
(06:00):
being spent on health care. And I know that there's a saying technology eats the world,
just because of how technology, how prevalent it is in our everyday lives.
I'd like to really amend that statement to actually include health care eats the world
as well. And not just from a cost standpoint, but also how central health care is to our well-being.
(06:21):
And what you're seeing is you're seeing in the industry an increasing use of technology and
hopefully controlling the growth of those costs, but also raising the quality of health care.
And you see that in things like increased use of telehealth, remote patient monitoring. collecting
health data and applying health analytics. And of course, we can't avoid the discussion of the
(06:42):
use of AI that's penetrating everything. That's also penetrating into health care. And of course,
as you know, use of AI, it requires lots of data.And to Will's point, on all this data that's
coming in, the challenge is not just for the patients to understand that data,
it's also for the health care industry and for doctors how to interpret all that data and not
to be overwhelmed by all this incoming data.And I think whatever companies can figure out
(07:07):
how to understand this data, which is going to be critical in terms of
how we control costs and hopefully improve health care and as well lessen the burden on
our hard-pressed health care professionals, those companies are going to do pretty well.
Will Ahmed: I think Art makes a great point there. (07:21):
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I just want to add, a lot of the capabilities of wearable technology, the potential of wearable
technology is to shift a lot of these curative costs to being preventative costs because if you
can identify something that's going to happen before it happens, that saves a whole hell of a
lot of money because the curative costs are really where all the bloat is in the health care system.
(07:45):
And so as we think about that at WHOOP, it's being able to diagnose and predict well before something
happens. And continuous health monitoring, we think, plays a really important role in that.
Joseph Cass: Well, can you talk a little bit about (07:59):
undefined
the data you receive from WHOOP users and how it could positively contribute to our understanding
of human biology at a scientific level?Will Ahmed:
Yes. I mean we're collecting a scale of data that's never really been collected before. I
mean, literally, we're collecting trillions of heartbeats a month from our member base. And if
(08:23):
you think about what this data is capable of, it's really giving a much deeper understanding of the
human body. And it's also making discoveries at a population level that have never been made before.
I'll give you an example. We looked at heart rate variability of pregnant women. And we were able
(08:44):
to discover that over the course of a pregnancy, women's heart rate variability steadily declines
for the first 33 weeks, and then there's this sharp inflection 7 weeks before birth.
And it turns out that inflection occurs if you're premature as well. So if you're going to deliver
early, it happened 7 weeks back. So it might happen at the 30th week or the 31st week. And if
(09:07):
it did, that would be a sign that a woman would deliver actually 2 weeks early or 1 week early.
And this was just an amazing discovery that we had from essentially just having large data.
And we've made similar discoveries across all these other different
variables. We saw it with COVID, where we were able to identify that respiratory rate was a
predictor of someone having COVID 2 or 3 days even before they had symptoms. We've learned
(09:32):
a lot about alcohol. We learned a lot about training. We've learned a lot about sleep. And
all these things when you start to apply them at the population level, lead to discoveries.
Joseph Cass: Art, to what extent are the major health (09:42):
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care companies considering wearable technology? Is it seen as a fad or a long-term structural trend?
Arthur Wong: In terms of is it a fad or a structural shift, (09:53):
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it's definitely not a fad. I think wearables offer a high level of convenience for patients
and for consumers. And when you have greater convenience, you have greater compliance.
And to Will's point, I think that's really important because you're trying to shift
the focus of health care to more preventative -- to preventative care and that requires greater
(10:17):
compliance on the patients. And when you have greater compliance, you have better health
outcomes, you have a healthier patient. And with a healthier patient, you have lower cost.
I mean, for example, let's say you take a diabetes patient. And there -- a diabetes patient is most
concerned about the A1C levels, what their level of blood glucose is. And previously, how a patient
(10:39):
would monitor that, you would do pin pricks. Now you have these wearables, these continuous -- what
they call continuous glucose monitor, CGMs, from companies like Abbott, from Dexcom that they wear.
And then with an app on their phone, they can monitor what their A1C levels are throughout
the day. So no more pin pricks and it's greater convenience, it's more accurate and obviously,
(11:02):
is less painful because you don't have to prick your finger all the time.
And when you see -- and then when you see that your levels of A1C are too high,
they're wearing -- the patient probably is also wearing a wearable insulin pump,
such as Insulet's Omnipod. So you don't have to inject insulin as well. Also greater convenience,
(11:24):
improves your compliance and it's less painful.And also, again, with a healthier patient,
it lowers cost. And through these devices as well, all this data is being collected
throughout the day. And hopefully, it gets analyzed and you get greater health insights.
Joseph Cass: Will, what's your expectations for the future (11:41):
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of health wearables? Could we ever reach a point where they predict or even prevent illnesses?
Will Ahmed: I think if you look at the history (11:50):
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of wearable technology, it's sort of like progressively getting more interesting. And
V1 was sort of this world of tracking, right, where it just would record certain information,
but wouldn't necessarily tell you what to do with it or how to organize it.
(12:12):
I think V2 of wearables has been organizing that data into scores that are a little bit
more actionable. So for example, sleep scores and recovery scores and health scores. And I think the
sort of the utopia, if you will, is being able to take all of this data to a place of coaching
and behavior change. And that's where you can see a fairly profound outcome for society.
(12:39):
So for example, WHOOP just came out with this feature called Healthspan with WHOOP Age,
where we essentially tell you how old you are physiologically based on all of your habits
and your behaviors. And we're already seeing fairly meaningful behavior change associated
with people understanding, well, if they get a little bit more sleep, that's going to make
(13:01):
them younger. If they get -- exercised a little bit more, that's going to make them younger.
If they do weight lifting, that's going to make them a little younger. If their
resting heart rate is higher, that's going to make them older. If their VO2 max is lower, that's
going to make them older. These sorts of things start to become more actionable and very tangible.
A related sort of thing as it pertains to health outcomes is being able to diagnose something. So
(13:28):
for example, WHOOP now has the ability to take an ECG reading right from your wrist and diagnose
whether or not you have AFib. And that's a report that you could send directly to a cardiologist. So
again, these are the sorts of capabilities that really didn't exist just a matter of
years ago and are now giving medical-grade technology into the hands of consumers.
Joseph Cass: Will, Cristiano Ronaldo is (13:53):
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now a partner and investor at WHOOP. How did you land Ronaldo as a partner? Did you just
cold e-mail him? And secondly, what was it like meeting and interviewing Cristiano at his house?
Will Ahmed: Well, fortunately, WHOOP is really the (14:10):
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best advocate for the brand. And when I say WHOOP, I mean the product itself. And in Ronaldo's case,
much like a lot of the world's best athletes, he was just someone who started using WHOOP. And we
discovered he was wearing it just by seeing his photos on Instagram or in the public eye.
(14:31):
And so it was about 2 years of him wearing it before I had any interaction with him or contact
with him. And in fact, his team reached out to us because he loved the product so much. We've always
been in the business of trying to authentically tell stories around health and data. And because
our product is geared for high performers, high-performing people organically wear it,
(14:54):
authentically wear it. And so our marketing strategy tends to be to amplify those stories.
Ronaldo, of course, one of the most highest-performing individuals in the
world and certainly from an athletic standpoint. So I got to meet him in Riyadh where he lives,
and we spent a couple of hours together and really hit it off. And I realized
(15:15):
in listening to him talk about his training that he was something of a sports scientist.
There was a side to him that I hadn't really seen before, where he was talking very deeply
about his body and his data and certain things that he would do to improve his sleep or decrease
his resting heart rate or breathe before a big moment. And there were these little
(15:36):
details that I found quite fascinating that I thought we could amplify in our storytelling.
And so then we spent a few months trying to work out what a deal could be together, and
he became a large investor in the company and a global ambassador for WHOOP. And I've now done
a few interviews with him. I've spent a lot of time with him. I think he's got an intensity that
(16:01):
burns inside of him that's unique. I mean, really, his drive, I think, is what differentiates him.
Yes, we see the talent. But what you don't see is the other 22 hours of the day when
he's not competing on a football field, all the little things that he's doing
and choosing to do that make him great. And for a lot of athletes, I think that's
(16:24):
something they can do for 5 years or 8 years.I think it's unusual when you see someone doing
it for 20-plus years. And that also speaks to why at 40 years old, he's still a very
competitive athlete and someone who's winning. So we love our partnership with Cristiano, and
I think he's a great ambassador for the company.Joseph Cass:
(16:45):
Art, as someone who is ingrained and well versed in the world of health care, did you use a health
care tracker in your own personal life?Arthur Wong:
I do use one. It's an Apple Watch. So sorry, Will, I haven't tried the WHOOP's device yet. I think
with your device feature, being able to estimate what your true age is, I'm a little bit nervous to
(17:06):
try to use it now. But I do think with devices like WHOOPs, like Apple Watch, like the Google
Watch, they're gaining in popularity. People are becoming more focused on their health and their
well-being and especially as they get older.And this generation of seniors, they're also
more active. So they do want to have more focus on their health care because they want
(17:27):
to be more active as they go along. And you're also seeing a consumerization of health care.
So consumer-friendly devices and services such as the Abbott and Dexcom, CGMs such as
insulin pump, but also from companies like Apple, Google, Amazon, WHOOP that you're
seeing an increasing use of technology and data that these devices are collecting. And
(17:51):
hopefully, they will also help keep people healthier. And I think that's a great thing.
Joseph Cass: Will, I saw on Instagram, you recently became (17:56):
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a father. First of all, congratulations.Will Ahmed:
Thank you.Joseph Cass:
We had our second daughter a few years ago, and I was wearing my WHOOP. And I can tell you there was
a lot of red days during that first few months. So very interested to know how you're finding your
own personal score these days.Will Ahmed:
Well, I will say becoming a father is an amazing feeling and the sort of biological love that you
(18:22):
feel for this new little human isn't it just an amazing -- it's an amazing feeling. I think that,
I guess, in WHOOP terms, my sleep consistency has actually been a little better, so that's
going to bed and waking up at the same time.And the reason it's better is because we've tried
(18:43):
to build a schedule around our bed times and wake times that adapts to our new little son. And I
also have been traveling a little less than usual to be around the family and be around my son.
I will say the quality of my sleep, so your hours of sleep, your restorative sleep,
(19:04):
that's declined, so that's not as great. And then I am seeing some lower recovery scores,
some red and yellow scores that otherwise might have been green. But look, that's
the sacrifice that comes with having a newborn.And again, back to my point earlier about just
(19:24):
learning how to use this data, I think it's okay to go through periods where you're not
having the best data. And it's just part of it is an awareness that you don't have
the best data. Your body is not at its peak level and giving yourself a little bit of
forgiveness, so to speak, during that period.I'm not trying to crush workouts the way I was
(19:44):
before I had a newborn. I'm not trying to make an additional 100 decisions from the period of 5
p.m. to midnight like I otherwise might have been. So those are just sort of things that
you start to recognize by measuring your body.Arthur Wong:
Actually, I'm curious, Will, after having the baby, how much older does your WHOOP device
(20:06):
say you've aged?Will Ahmed:
Yes. The aging has been fascinating. When we first had this -- when the WHOOP Age
feature first came out, my pace of aging was kind of like 1:1, which is to say that every
chronological day is equivalent to my physiological age, and so it's sort of
like 1:1. And you want it to be less, right?So of course, I immediately am motivated by
(20:30):
this new feature, and it just plunges. And so I'm working out all the time,
I'm sleeping all the time, I'm like dialed in. And then we have the newborn and all of a sudden,
you see it just start rising back up and my pace of aging, all of a sudden is above 1. And so just
(20:51):
now, I've actually kind of turned the corner again as little Tommy has built out a sleep schedule and
as I've kind of dialed some things in at home.Arthur Wong:
Congratulations again.Will Ahmed:
Thank you.Joseph Cass:
Will, if we could unlock one major breakthrough in health optimization, what would you want it to be?
Will Ahmed: Well, I think at the sort of the biggest unlock is (21:13):
undefined
to be able to drive health outcomes, which is to say when you put a WHOOP on, fast forward a month,
fast forward 3 months, fast forward 6 months, you're going to be a healthier person. And we're
close to being able to show that we can do that.We certainly do it for some people. We want to
(21:34):
be able to do it for all people. And that's to say that because of the data that you see,
because of the coaching experience you go through, you start making better decisions,
you start having better habits, and that leads you to a healthier and higher performing state
of being. That's really the utopia.I would say from a sensing standpoint,
(21:58):
I'm really proud of the fact that we just launched blood pressure monitoring. And so
our latest technology has a new feature called Blood Pressure Insights. It gives you a daily
blood pressure reading. That's from the wrist, that's without a cuff. And that's been seen as
one of the probably most difficult things in wearable technology. And so we're very proud
(22:21):
to be one of the very first companies to do this, and so that's a pretty big leap forward.
Joseph Cass: Will, last one now. (22:27):
undefined
What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given and who gave it to you?
Will Ahmed: Well, I think the (22:35):
undefined
biggest piece of advice that I just keep hearing in my head is keep going. And the reason for that
is like when things are going great, there's a huge problem that's lurking around the corner.
And when things are really bad and you're dealing with an avalanche of problems, guess what, the sun
(22:55):
also rises, you're going to get through it, you're going to come out the other side, good days await.
And so there's just a little bit of like a keep going mindset that I think is helpful for every
entrepreneur. That's certainly a talk track in my mind. It's not to get too comfortable
when things are great, and it's certainly not to get too down when things are hard.
(23:18):
And in fact, when things are really hard, I think you end up learning a lot from those experiences.
And so many of like my fondest memories in the history of WHOOP are these like insanely
difficult periods that really tested me or my team or the company at large to push through.
(23:38):
And at the end of the day, the thing that's kind of helped guide me is just this mindset of, okay,
we're going to keep going.Joseph Cass:
Well, that's it. Thank you very much to Will and to Art for your time today. To
everyone listening, everyone watching, see you next time on the Leaders podcast.
Arthur Wong: Thank you for having me. (23:53):
undefined
Will Ahmed: Thank you, Joe (23:54):
undefined
undefined
My name is Joe Cass, Senior Director at S&P Global Ratings and the host and the creator
of the Leaders podcast. On this episode, we have Will Ahmed, Founder and CEO of WHOOP,
and Art Wong, Managing Director at S&P Global Ratings. A quick reminder that the views of the
external guests are their views alone, and they do not represent the views of S&P Global Ratings.
Joseph Cass: Okay. Let's get into it. Will, can you give (00:29):
undefined
an overview of what WHOOP is? Your inspiration to start the company and how your background as
a Harvard athlete shaped its development.Will Ahmed:
Absolutely. Thank you for having me. So our mission at WHOOP is to unlock human performance
and health span, which means we really want to help human beings live longer and perform better.
(00:54):
We build wearable technology, software, hardware, data that's really designed to
help an individual understand their bodies.I got into this space what's now about 12,
13 years ago. As a college athlete, I was someone who used to overtrain. I felt like
I didn't know what I was doing to my body. And I just got very interested in physiology,
(01:17):
which is to say, what can you measure about the human body to really understand it,
to understand performance, to understand health.And I did a ton of physiology research while I was
a student, read hundreds of medical papers and started this company WHOOP, while I was really
a college kid out of a dorm room. And it's been quite a journey over the last 13 years. I think
(01:40):
we've evolved from being a company that focused on really high-end athletic performance, so working
with many of the world's best athletes, to over time, now being a company that's used by really
a wide array of consumers looking to improve their health and improve their performance.
(02:02):
And just recently, we announced a whole new suite of hardware and software features, the WHOOP 5.0,
the WHOOP MG. We just came out with some of our first medically cleared features. So we can get
more into that. But I think the evolution of the company has been one of going from really
the highest performing athletes in the world to now everyday people who are looking to live
(02:25):
longer and healthier.Joseph Cass:
Art, can you let everyone know your background, what you do at S&P Global Ratings and also your
areas of expertise?Arthur Wong:
I'm Arthur Wong, Managing Director here at S&P Corporate Ratings. I'm the sector lead for the
health care team, and our team assigns corporate credit ratings for the health care industry.
(02:46):
We cover over 180 companies, and the range includes health care providers, pharmaceutical
names and medical device companies as well. Our ratings are based on several different factors,
but it's mainly based on our assessment of a company's competitive position,
combined with what we believe how strong their financial policies are and what their financial
strength is.Joseph Cass:
(03:07):
Will, what's the most common mistake people make when analyzing their WHOOP data?
Will Ahmed: Well, I think, first of all, (03:14):
undefined
I would say a general mistake that the population makes is not collecting this data in the first
place. I mean it's pretty amazing that wearable technology exists today in a form factor at a
price point that is pretty accessible for a large number of people and in turn, can really help you
(03:34):
understand what's going on inside of your body.It can help you get healthier, it can help you
identify whether you're getting sick, it can help you screen your heart now. And so these
are tools that are really at our fingertips and I think should be taken advantage of. I think
when people first start using WHOOP, one mistake they may make is just to overreact to the data.
(03:56):
Oh, I had a red recovery today. What does that mean? Oh my gosh, I'm anxious about that. Or
I had a green recovery. Oh, I got to go do a bunch of stuff. I think that it's important
to recognize that WHOOP is a tool. And like any tool, it takes a minute to learn how to use it.
And I think you want to understand today's data as much as you want to send trends of the data.
(04:21):
A big theme for WHOOP is looking at data over the period of 30 days and understanding what
data today means in that context. And so it's less about the raw reading, and it's more about
understanding what progression someone's on.Are they getting slightly healthier? Are they
trending up? Are they getting slightly less healthy? Are they getting enough sleep or
(04:42):
not enough sleep? And so in general, we see a common mistake is to overreact to the data.
But I think for the most part, people who are now using this tool every day feel quite
empowered by it. And rather than understanding your health from a health and fitness magazine,
you can just have real-time super accurate data at your fingertips to interact with.
Joseph Cass: Art, can you let us (05:07):
undefined
know the main trends and drivers that are really top of mind for health care investors right now?
Arthur Wong: Sure. I think that the big focus for (05:15):
undefined
health care from an industry standpoint, but not just from an industry standpoint, but also from a
societal and legislative standpoint is the rising cost of health care. You see that -- and it's
coming from the growth in demand, there's a growth in the population and just also the increasingly
aging population that we have around the world.And the big challenge is how do we control those
(05:38):
costs while ensuring a high quality of care. And that growth as well, that demand has also led to
burnout amongst nurses, amongst doctors. I think everybody knows -- you've read
of a shortage in health care labor.And just to put it into perspective,
health care spending in the U.S. consumes 18% of GDP. And that's almost $1 in every $5 that's
(06:00):
being spent on health care. And I know that there's a saying technology eats the world,
just because of how technology, how prevalent it is in our everyday lives.
I'd like to really amend that statement to actually include health care eats the world
as well. And not just from a cost standpoint, but also how central health care is to our well-being.
(06:21):
And what you're seeing is you're seeing in the industry an increasing use of technology and
hopefully controlling the growth of those costs, but also raising the quality of health care.
And you see that in things like increased use of telehealth, remote patient monitoring. collecting
health data and applying health analytics. And of course, we can't avoid the discussion of the
(06:42):
use of AI that's penetrating everything. That's also penetrating into health care. And of course,
as you know, use of AI, it requires lots of data.And to Will's point, on all this data that's
coming in, the challenge is not just for the patients to understand that data,
it's also for the health care industry and for doctors how to interpret all that data and not
to be overwhelmed by all this incoming data.And I think whatever companies can figure out
(07:07):
how to understand this data, which is going to be critical in terms of
how we control costs and hopefully improve health care and as well lessen the burden on
our hard-pressed health care professionals, those companies are going to do pretty well.
Will Ahmed: I think Art makes a great point there. (07:21):
undefined
I just want to add, a lot of the capabilities of wearable technology, the potential of wearable
technology is to shift a lot of these curative costs to being preventative costs because if you
can identify something that's going to happen before it happens, that saves a whole hell of a
lot of money because the curative costs are really where all the bloat is in the health care system.
(07:45):
And so as we think about that at WHOOP, it's being able to diagnose and predict well before something
happens. And continuous health monitoring, we think, plays a really important role in that.
Joseph Cass: Well, can you talk a little bit about (07:59):
undefined
the data you receive from WHOOP users and how it could positively contribute to our understanding
of human biology at a scientific level?Will Ahmed:
Yes. I mean we're collecting a scale of data that's never really been collected before. I
mean, literally, we're collecting trillions of heartbeats a month from our member base. And if
(08:23):
you think about what this data is capable of, it's really giving a much deeper understanding of the
human body. And it's also making discoveries at a population level that have never been made before.
I'll give you an example. We looked at heart rate variability of pregnant women. And we were able
(08:44):
to discover that over the course of a pregnancy, women's heart rate variability steadily declines
for the first 33 weeks, and then there's this sharp inflection 7 weeks before birth.
And it turns out that inflection occurs if you're premature as well. So if you're going to deliver
early, it happened 7 weeks back. So it might happen at the 30th week or the 31st week. And if
(09:07):
it did, that would be a sign that a woman would deliver actually 2 weeks early or 1 week early.
And this was just an amazing discovery that we had from essentially just having large data.
And we've made similar discoveries across all these other different
variables. We saw it with COVID, where we were able to identify that respiratory rate was a
predictor of someone having COVID 2 or 3 days even before they had symptoms. We've learned
(09:32):
a lot about alcohol. We learned a lot about training. We've learned a lot about sleep. And
all these things when you start to apply them at the population level, lead to discoveries.
Joseph Cass: Art, to what extent are the major health (09:42):
undefined
care companies considering wearable technology? Is it seen as a fad or a long-term structural trend?
Arthur Wong: In terms of is it a fad or a structural shift, (09:53):
undefined
it's definitely not a fad. I think wearables offer a high level of convenience for patients
and for consumers. And when you have greater convenience, you have greater compliance.
And to Will's point, I think that's really important because you're trying to shift
the focus of health care to more preventative -- to preventative care and that requires greater
(10:17):
compliance on the patients. And when you have greater compliance, you have better health
outcomes, you have a healthier patient. And with a healthier patient, you have lower cost.
I mean, for example, let's say you take a diabetes patient. And there -- a diabetes patient is most
concerned about the A1C levels, what their level of blood glucose is. And previously, how a patient
(10:39):
would monitor that, you would do pin pricks. Now you have these wearables, these continuous -- what
they call continuous glucose monitor, CGMs, from companies like Abbott, from Dexcom that they wear.
And then with an app on their phone, they can monitor what their A1C levels are throughout
the day. So no more pin pricks and it's greater convenience, it's more accurate and obviously,
(11:02):
is less painful because you don't have to prick your finger all the time.
And when you see -- and then when you see that your levels of A1C are too high,
they're wearing -- the patient probably is also wearing a wearable insulin pump,
such as Insulet's Omnipod. So you don't have to inject insulin as well. Also greater convenience,
(11:24):
improves your compliance and it's less painful.And also, again, with a healthier patient,
it lowers cost. And through these devices as well, all this data is being collected
throughout the day. And hopefully, it gets analyzed and you get greater health insights.
Joseph Cass: Will, what's your expectations for the future (11:41):
undefined
of health wearables? Could we ever reach a point where they predict or even prevent illnesses?
Will Ahmed: I think if you look at the history (11:50):
undefined
of wearable technology, it's sort of like progressively getting more interesting. And
V1 was sort of this world of tracking, right, where it just would record certain information,
but wouldn't necessarily tell you what to do with it or how to organize it.
(12:12):
I think V2 of wearables has been organizing that data into scores that are a little bit
more actionable. So for example, sleep scores and recovery scores and health scores. And I think the
sort of the utopia, if you will, is being able to take all of this data to a place of coaching
and behavior change. And that's where you can see a fairly profound outcome for society.
(12:39):
So for example, WHOOP just came out with this feature called Healthspan with WHOOP Age,
where we essentially tell you how old you are physiologically based on all of your habits
and your behaviors. And we're already seeing fairly meaningful behavior change associated
with people understanding, well, if they get a little bit more sleep, that's going to make
(13:01):
them younger. If they get -- exercised a little bit more, that's going to make them younger.
If they do weight lifting, that's going to make them a little younger. If their
resting heart rate is higher, that's going to make them older. If their VO2 max is lower, that's
going to make them older. These sorts of things start to become more actionable and very tangible.
A related sort of thing as it pertains to health outcomes is being able to diagnose something. So
(13:28):
for example, WHOOP now has the ability to take an ECG reading right from your wrist and diagnose
whether or not you have AFib. And that's a report that you could send directly to a cardiologist. So
again, these are the sorts of capabilities that really didn't exist just a matter of
years ago and are now giving medical-grade technology into the hands of consumers.
Joseph Cass: Will, Cristiano Ronaldo is (13:53):
undefined
now a partner and investor at WHOOP. How did you land Ronaldo as a partner? Did you just
cold e-mail him? And secondly, what was it like meeting and interviewing Cristiano at his house?
Will Ahmed: Well, fortunately, WHOOP is really the (14:10):
undefined
best advocate for the brand. And when I say WHOOP, I mean the product itself. And in Ronaldo's case,
much like a lot of the world's best athletes, he was just someone who started using WHOOP. And we
discovered he was wearing it just by seeing his photos on Instagram or in the public eye.
(14:31):
And so it was about 2 years of him wearing it before I had any interaction with him or contact
with him. And in fact, his team reached out to us because he loved the product so much. We've always
been in the business of trying to authentically tell stories around health and data. And because
our product is geared for high performers, high-performing people organically wear it,
(14:54):
authentically wear it. And so our marketing strategy tends to be to amplify those stories.
Ronaldo, of course, one of the most highest-performing individuals in the
world and certainly from an athletic standpoint. So I got to meet him in Riyadh where he lives,
and we spent a couple of hours together and really hit it off. And I realized
(15:15):
in listening to him talk about his training that he was something of a sports scientist.
There was a side to him that I hadn't really seen before, where he was talking very deeply
about his body and his data and certain things that he would do to improve his sleep or decrease
his resting heart rate or breathe before a big moment. And there were these little
(15:36):
details that I found quite fascinating that I thought we could amplify in our storytelling.
And so then we spent a few months trying to work out what a deal could be together, and
he became a large investor in the company and a global ambassador for WHOOP. And I've now done
a few interviews with him. I've spent a lot of time with him. I think he's got an intensity that
(16:01):
burns inside of him that's unique. I mean, really, his drive, I think, is what differentiates him.
Yes, we see the talent. But what you don't see is the other 22 hours of the day when
he's not competing on a football field, all the little things that he's doing
and choosing to do that make him great. And for a lot of athletes, I think that's
(16:24):
something they can do for 5 years or 8 years.I think it's unusual when you see someone doing
it for 20-plus years. And that also speaks to why at 40 years old, he's still a very
competitive athlete and someone who's winning. So we love our partnership with Cristiano, and
I think he's a great ambassador for the company.Joseph Cass:
(16:45):
Art, as someone who is ingrained and well versed in the world of health care, did you use a health
care tracker in your own personal life?Arthur Wong:
I do use one. It's an Apple Watch. So sorry, Will, I haven't tried the WHOOP's device yet. I think
with your device feature, being able to estimate what your true age is, I'm a little bit nervous to
(17:06):
try to use it now. But I do think with devices like WHOOPs, like Apple Watch, like the Google
Watch, they're gaining in popularity. People are becoming more focused on their health and their
well-being and especially as they get older.And this generation of seniors, they're also
more active. So they do want to have more focus on their health care because they want
(17:27):
to be more active as they go along. And you're also seeing a consumerization of health care.
So consumer-friendly devices and services such as the Abbott and Dexcom, CGMs such as
insulin pump, but also from companies like Apple, Google, Amazon, WHOOP that you're
seeing an increasing use of technology and data that these devices are collecting. And
(17:51):
hopefully, they will also help keep people healthier. And I think that's a great thing.
Joseph Cass: Will, I saw on Instagram, you recently became (17:56):
undefined
a father. First of all, congratulations.Will Ahmed:
Thank you.Joseph Cass:
We had our second daughter a few years ago, and I was wearing my WHOOP. And I can tell you there was
a lot of red days during that first few months. So very interested to know how you're finding your
own personal score these days.Will Ahmed:
Well, I will say becoming a father is an amazing feeling and the sort of biological love that you
(18:22):
feel for this new little human isn't it just an amazing -- it's an amazing feeling. I think that,
I guess, in WHOOP terms, my sleep consistency has actually been a little better, so that's
going to bed and waking up at the same time.And the reason it's better is because we've tried
(18:43):
to build a schedule around our bed times and wake times that adapts to our new little son. And I
also have been traveling a little less than usual to be around the family and be around my son.
I will say the quality of my sleep, so your hours of sleep, your restorative sleep,
(19:04):
that's declined, so that's not as great. And then I am seeing some lower recovery scores,
some red and yellow scores that otherwise might have been green. But look, that's
the sacrifice that comes with having a newborn.And again, back to my point earlier about just
(19:24):
learning how to use this data, I think it's okay to go through periods where you're not
having the best data. And it's just part of it is an awareness that you don't have
the best data. Your body is not at its peak level and giving yourself a little bit of
forgiveness, so to speak, during that period.I'm not trying to crush workouts the way I was
(19:44):
before I had a newborn. I'm not trying to make an additional 100 decisions from the period of 5
p.m. to midnight like I otherwise might have been. So those are just sort of things that
you start to recognize by measuring your body.Arthur Wong:
Actually, I'm curious, Will, after having the baby, how much older does your WHOOP device
(20:06):
say you've aged?Will Ahmed:
Yes. The aging has been fascinating. When we first had this -- when the WHOOP Age
feature first came out, my pace of aging was kind of like 1:1, which is to say that every
chronological day is equivalent to my physiological age, and so it's sort of
like 1:1. And you want it to be less, right?So of course, I immediately am motivated by
(20:30):
this new feature, and it just plunges. And so I'm working out all the time,
I'm sleeping all the time, I'm like dialed in. And then we have the newborn and all of a sudden,
you see it just start rising back up and my pace of aging, all of a sudden is above 1. And so just
(20:51):
now, I've actually kind of turned the corner again as little Tommy has built out a sleep schedule and
as I've kind of dialed some things in at home.Arthur Wong:
Congratulations again.Will Ahmed:
Thank you.Joseph Cass:
Will, if we could unlock one major breakthrough in health optimization, what would you want it to be?
Will Ahmed: Well, I think at the sort of the biggest unlock is (21:13):
undefined
to be able to drive health outcomes, which is to say when you put a WHOOP on, fast forward a month,
fast forward 3 months, fast forward 6 months, you're going to be a healthier person. And we're
close to being able to show that we can do that.We certainly do it for some people. We want to
(21:34):
be able to do it for all people. And that's to say that because of the data that you see,
because of the coaching experience you go through, you start making better decisions,
you start having better habits, and that leads you to a healthier and higher performing state
of being. That's really the utopia.I would say from a sensing standpoint,
(21:58):
I'm really proud of the fact that we just launched blood pressure monitoring. And so
our latest technology has a new feature called Blood Pressure Insights. It gives you a daily
blood pressure reading. That's from the wrist, that's without a cuff. And that's been seen as
one of the probably most difficult things in wearable technology. And so we're very proud
(22:21):
to be one of the very first companies to do this, and so that's a pretty big leap forward.
Joseph Cass: Will, last one now. (22:27):
undefined
What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given and who gave it to you?
Will Ahmed: Well, I think the (22:35):
undefined
biggest piece of advice that I just keep hearing in my head is keep going. And the reason for that
is like when things are going great, there's a huge problem that's lurking around the corner.
And when things are really bad and you're dealing with an avalanche of problems, guess what, the sun
(22:55):
also rises, you're going to get through it, you're going to come out the other side, good days await.
And so there's just a little bit of like a keep going mindset that I think is helpful for every
entrepreneur. That's certainly a talk track in my mind. It's not to get too comfortable
when things are great, and it's certainly not to get too down when things are hard.
(23:18):
And in fact, when things are really hard, I think you end up learning a lot from those experiences.
And so many of like my fondest memories in the history of WHOOP are these like insanely
difficult periods that really tested me or my team or the company at large to push through.
(23:38):
And at the end of the day, the thing that's kind of helped guide me is just this mindset of, okay,
we're going to keep going.Joseph Cass:
Well, that's it. Thank you very much to Will and to Art for your time today. To
everyone listening, everyone watching, see you next time on the Leaders podcast.
Arthur Wong: Thank you for having me. (23:53):
undefined
Will Ahmed: Thank you, Joe (23:54):
undefined
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