April 30, 2025 • 30 mins
This week’s “How She Finds Purpose” insight comes from Tara Landes. She says –
“I think once you've reached that pinnacle or if you're feeling like it's, it's empty or it's not enough, or even if you haven't reached the pinnacle but you're feeling somewhat unfulfilled, I really think that we're social creatures, and we have to find others to share that journey and passion with. Whatever it is, I just I really think that that's what kinda gets missed. We get so caught up on measuring success in terms of money or promotions. And so, really, I think if you're feeling a lack of purpose and a lack of passion, it's time to reach out into the community and find a way to be of service. You'll get way more back than you ever put in.”
Tara Landes is the founder of BellRock Benchmark Inc., a Canadian management consulting firm that helps business leaders solve their most challenging problems and implement lasting organizational change.
After years of working with small businesses across North America, she returned to her hometown of Vancouver, only to realize that the job she wanted didn’t exist - so she built it herself. Drawing from both psychology and business management, Tara has become a trusted advisor to over 300 small business leaders.
Here are 3 reasons why you should listen to this episode:
-
You’ll hear how one woman turned a career crossroads into a thriving consulting business, without having a “perfect plan” in place.
-
If you’ve ever felt unfulfilled despite success, Tara shares how finding purpose can come from leaning into your natural strengths, and helping others.
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You’ll get a smart, practical take on building community, navigating hard times, and how being curious about what feels fun can lead to your purpose.
Connect with Tara at:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/taralandes
Website: https://www.bellrock.ca/
Would you prefer to watch or listen to the podcast on YouTube?
Head on over to https://www.youtube.com/@leadershippurposepodcast
Want to connect? Connect with Dr. Robin on
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robinlowensphd/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/robinlowensphd
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/robinlowensphd/
Email: Robin@LeadershipPurposePodcast.com
Thank you for listening! Rate, review, & follow on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast player. Talk to you soon!
This episode was produced by Lynda, Podcast Manager for GenX Creative Entrepreneurs at https://www.ljscreativeservices.co.nz
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to the Leadership Purpose with Dr Robin podcast.
I'm your host, Robin L Owens, PhD. I'm a college
professor. And when I'm not doing that, I am teaching others
how to find and stay in alignment with their true purpose.
And this is where we talk with women who've made bold career
transitions in search for more meaning and purpose in
(00:24):
their work. So if you're feeling that pull toward more meaning and purpose in
your work or just curious about what's possible when you
pursue purpose over position, then these
conversations are here to encourage, inspire,
and guide you. Okay. Let's get started.
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Leadership
(00:47):
Purpose with Dr. Robin podcast. I'm so glad you're here and
you're listening to the podcast. I say it all the time and I will continue
to say it. I really appreciate you for listening into the
podcast. And because you've been such faithful listeners, you helped us
get ranked in the top 5% of all podcasts
globally according to Listen Notes. So
(01:09):
thank you for that, and help us keep it going. Review,
rate, subscribe to the podcast. And if you hear something today, which I'm
sure you will, that strikes you, go ahead and submit a
review. That'll really help us out. All right. So now,
today, and I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Today, I'm
talking with Tara Landes. Now, let me tell you a little bit
(01:32):
about Tara. After almost a decade of
working with small businesses throughout North America, Tara
returned to her birthplace of Vancouver, BC and began
looking for the same kind of job she had before,
small business consulting with deep implementation.
Unfortunately, or she says luckily,
(01:55):
she couldn't find a company to work for that did what
she loved to do, So she had to start her
own, her own company, so she founded BellRock
Benchmark Inc. It's a Canadian management consulting
firm that helps business leaders solve their most challenging problems
and implement lasting organizational
(02:18):
change. And in her work, Tara combines the best practices
from psychology and business management, and
she's been a trusted advisor to over 300 small
business leaders. Welcome, Tara Landes.
Thank you so much for having me, Doctor. Robin, and congratulations
on the top 5%. That's really something. There's a lot of podcasts
(02:41):
out here. So good for you for, for sticking with it and for doing such
a great job. Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you. And I'm glad
you're here. And as we were talking just before, I'm really excited about
delving into your story a little bit more. Right. Alright. Now you heard me just
read your sort of introduction bio. Right? But tell us in
your own words a little bit about two things, who you
(03:03):
are and then what you do. Okay. Who I
am? Well, I'm a I'm a mother and a wife and a daughter
and a dog owner, and a Canadian. And
I love the work that I do, which is helping people,
helping managers and leaders really develop the best
that they can in their work lives. So really try to
(03:25):
bring out find people's strengths and accent them
even further so that they become, all that they can
be, that they live their potential. Yeah. You that sounds you and I are
in alignment with our work, our respective work. So but how'd
you how'd you come to do this? I know you we thought we just heard
that you were looking for, but let's start. Tell that story.
(03:47):
Well, we can even go back further. So there I was. I
was working in telephone sales, selling
computers and computer products for a Fortune 500
company, and I knew that that was not my fate. I didn't even
really understand what I was selling, to be honest. So I was going to go
back to school, and everyone always thought I should be a lawyer. That was what
(04:08):
people told me. You should be a lawyer. You should go to law school because
you argue a lot. So, I went down that
path, and I wrote the LSAT. I did very well on the LSAT, if I
do say so myself. And then I met a lawyer because
I'd never talked to anyone about what lawyering was about. And
the lawyer said, do you wanna work eighty hours a week making $40 a year?
(04:30):
And I said, no. I don't. And so I went and did an MBA instead.
And, I went and did the MBA. I was very young. I was 26
when I graduated, and I was quite intimidated by
the job market. I went to a reasonably good school with some very
talented people around me, most of them older than me
with much more involved experience than I had
(04:53):
had. And I couldn't figure out what I wanted to do. I knew I didn't
wanna do finance, didn't like that. And I knew I didn't wanna be in a
big company because I tried that, and it just wasn't for me. I think it's
back to that arguing thing again. And so I found this small
business consulting firm, and they were hiring. And I thought, oh, that'd
be great. I'll just go it'll be like a paid internship, and I'll get to
(05:14):
go to all these different little businesses and see all the possible jobs and
all the possible industries, and I'll figure it out from there. So I
took that job, and the first company I worked with was
a cardboard box manufacturing company. And then I went to an
office refurbishment company, and then I went to a company
that ruggedized Toshiba laptops to
(05:37):
work in industry, like, out in the field. And then I went to a general
contractor. And everywhere I went, all the people
I mean, the industries were different, but the people were even
more different. And I just got really addicted to all these
different stories and these different people. And it turned out
that in small business, the stuff I knew how to do
(05:59):
was like brain surgery to them. The stuff they
know how to do, I had no idea how to do any of that stuff,
but I actually thought my stuff was pretty easy. And so
I really enjoyed going in and helping them with these tools that they
didn't necessarily have, putting them in place in their
company, and then leaving. I really liked that it was a
(06:21):
project, and the project would be over, and I could go.
And so that was really fun for the first year. But then
after that first year or so, I started going back to the old
clients that I'd had. And, you know, if I went from here to
there with them, when I left, they went from there,
like, you know, sky's the limit, and I became addicted to that
(06:42):
feeling. I was completely addicted to going back
and seeing the growth and the the amazing thing that they've
done. And it didn't have to be growth, by the way. I mean, it really
depended on what their goals were. Sometimes people wanted to take a
vacation. Sometimes they wanted to be able to sell the business. It didn't
matter what the goals were, but to be a part of helping
(07:04):
them in the at the foundational level get to those
goals was really rewarding for me, and I I just
fell in love with it. And so I'm still doing that today. I love
that you kinda centered it all around what your
gifts or strengths are, the thing that was easy for you
but hard for them. Yeah. And that was the whole thing.
(07:27):
And I love that because I also teach that in my own work about
one of my principles is that centralizing your natural
abilities. So I love that. Now let's go back a little bit though.
You talked about, okay, when you found out what law was all about, you're
like, No, that's not for me. Definitely not. Then you said, Okay, and
then I just went into an MBA. Why an MBA? Did you think
(07:49):
about it or was there something about an MBA that resonated with you
or did somebody say this is the best the next best thing if you're not
gonna do law? I mean, honestly, I wish I could tell you I
was very purposeful throughout my whole career. I wasn't
it sounded like fun. I do
like business. I've always liked business. I knew I wanted to have, you
(08:11):
know, a a real career, not just a job. I'd had
jobs that wasn't for me. It just seemed honestly, I
was just hiding out school. I mean, back then, it didn't cost
quite as much as it costs now, and you could hide there for a while
and just learn things. And my favorite thing to do actually is
learn. My favorite thing to do is go to school. When I retire, I will
(08:33):
go and do a whole bunch of degrees. I just, I really
enjoy learning. So it was a way to hide out. That's what I
did. Yeah. You and I have that in common. Love it. Love learning. Love
learning. But, you know, I think you said something that's important that you might be
overlooking. You said because it was fun. You thought an MBA might
be fun. Not everyone would think an MBA is fun. That's
(08:55):
fun. What that means, that tells me you had some interest
whether you were conscious of it or not. You had some interest. You said you
had interest in business because it sounded like it was fun.
So you already sort of somewhere knew that there was gonna be something you might
like in there. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I mean, I had I definitely had an
interest in business. And I'll also say the program I went to was a case
(09:16):
based program. So instead of having to study and
memorize, it was all about talking things through. I knew that that's where my
strength was, was in, speaking about things and and
talking through issues again back to that argument stuff. But I gotta
tell you, the real thing that attracted me to the particular program
I went to had nothing to do with the program itself at all.
(09:39):
They had a student run initiative where they would go and
teach business in the former Soviet Union. And
so the, you know, the wall had fallen. This was the year 1999. And
so I got to spend a month in Minsk, Belarus
and a month in Dnieper, Ukraine and teach business
to people there. And that was the main reason I
(10:01):
chose that program, which has nothing to do with the formal
education at all, but it was definitely a seminal
experience for me. Yeah. And definitely, I would say educational
even though it's outside. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, which is the point of
it. That's wonderful though. There was something about that
you knew. Is there something, because we just
(10:23):
mentioned both of us that you said, Yeah, you like business.
How did you know? Was there something in your experience
that let you know you liked business? My family
always, we talked about that at the dinner table and my father was an
executive and there had been a long history of sort of
not family business. We're not in family business, but just people working and getting
(10:46):
that's just sort of what you did. You went and got a career. That's what
you did. So that's what I had to do too. Yeah. That makes sense.
Is there anything in the experience of little Tara
who is anywhere resembling what you're doing now? Is
there anything that looks like some connection, some early
seeds of it? Well, I'll tell you a story. I was
(11:08):
a very, very shy kid, and I'm an only child. And when I
was, I think I was about six years old and we moved houses,
moved to a new neighborhood. It was the middle of summer. And, so I had
no friends in my little neighborhood, and I had no siblings
to play with. And so I wanted to find friends, but I was really
shy. So what I did is I took my mother's catalog. She
(11:30):
had a was the company was called Regal Greetings and Gifts. They're not
around anymore, but it was like gift cards and wrapping paper and things like
that. And you'd pick your orders, and then you'd go to the the
depot, the distribution place, and you'd go pick up what you wanted. So I
took the catalog, and I started going door to door in the neighborhood, and I
would knock on the door. Hi. My name is Tara. Do you have any kids
(11:52):
for me to play with? And if they said no, I wanted to have a
reason to be there. So I said, would you like to buy some greeting cards?
And I would show them the catalog. And I got I got
all these orders as I went around the neighborhood. So I think
I always enjoyed selling.
Yes. So cute. Yes. I was
(12:15):
manipulative in retrospect, but the time was so You got
orders. I got orders. Yeah. People because they felt bad. Oh, I don't
have anyone for this poor load. It's like the kids who set up the lemonade
stand and you're buying, giving them a quarter because you feel, look at them,
let's encourage it. Yeah. My lemonade was greeting cards.
I love that. You always had that little business. It was just part of
(12:36):
their natural abilities. Yeah. That came out later.
Wow. Alright. So tell us now more of the journey from the MBA
to where you are now. Right. So I had this job, and I was doing
this work all throughout North America. Really enjoyed what I was doing. I
really enjoyed getting to know the people. Even the terrible clients were
great clients because it was a it was an experience. It was a story to
(12:59):
tell. And, in 02/2007, I
fell pregnant with my first child and came to my senses and realized I
didn't wanna be traveling all over North America anymore. I just wanted to be
home. I want to go home at the end of the day. And
so my husband and I moved back to Vancouver, Canada where I'm originally
from, and I started looking for work. My husband was in
(13:22):
investment banking, and his company had agreed to move him to
Vancouver and set him up so he could start a practice here.
And so that's what we did, and there we were. And it
was 02/2008. You may recall
02/2008, there was a little bit of financial turmoil.
And my husband lost his job in a hot minute because he was just
(13:44):
starting up this, and now what are we gonna do? And I was
lamenting my fate to my previous employer saying, oh,
man, I'm gonna have to go get, like, a real job, and I can have
to go work at a bank or some big com it's the last thing I
wanna do is get one of those MBA jobs. And he just
said, so we are smart, girl. Go sell a project. Figure it
(14:05):
out. And I'm like, but I was never in sales. I just did the
consulting work. And he's like, okay. Well, then take one of those terrible jobs.
And so I really didn't want one of those terrible jobs. So
I had to find a way to start a company because nobody was doing that
kind of implementation work here, at least no one that I could find. And
did you, seek out help to like you
(14:28):
said, I don't know how to do it. Like, how did you get from there
to actually starting? Well, that person was very helpful to me that
my previous employer, just sort of giving me advice and also having, you
know, taught me for eight years or seven years. But what
I did is I started doing some mystery shopping.
And so I would go, to trade shows
(14:49):
and do mystery shopping on their trade show booths and
then try to get appointments with the leaders of those businesses to give them
their results to do the big reveal. It was tough. It was cold
calling. It was, you know, I'd call a hundred companies. I'd only
get through to three. Of the three, two would say yes. Of
the two that said yes, only one would actually keep the meeting,
(15:12):
and I was going to them. Like, they just would say, oh, no. We're too
busy, and I would have driven all that way. And but, hey, I got one
project and one led to another, and that company was born.
Wow. Yeah. Wow. So for for people who don't know, tell them
what mystery shopping is. Oh, well, mystery shop. We called it
mystery benchmarking, and so we would go to the trade show, typically a business to
(15:34):
business trade show. I say we because I did this for many years, but
then it was me. I should have said I. And I had 20
best practices that I was looking for. 10 of them had to do with the
visual experience of the booth, and 10 of them had to do
with the sales experience that I had when I approached the the
booth. And then I would just tell them I would
(15:57):
go to the meeting with the boss, and I would say, my intention
was to say, here's how you did. But what actually ended
up happening was that I would say, so this is the best
practice. As someone comes to the booth, they should be
actively greeted, for example, not passively greeted. So
someone should come to me, and then there are better and worse greetings.
(16:19):
So one of the worst greetings, although active is always
better, a worse greeting might be hello or how are
you or can I help you? Because we are programmed
through our experiences to just say, you know, can I help you? No. Thank you.
Just looking. How are you? I'm fine. Like, they aren't real questions.
So I'd explain the best practice. I wouldn't even have to tell them how
(16:41):
they did. They knew how they did. They would start say, oh, I bet
my person was, you know, sitting on their BlackBerry because this is back then. You're,
you know, looking or, oh, I bet this happened. Oh, I bet that happened. And
so all I really had to do was explain the best practices,
and it was back to that old experience of mine. The stuff that I knew
that was obvious to me, once they knew it, it was
(17:03):
obvious to them as well. But before they knew it,
it was, you know, a revelation. And so that's
how they would say, well, you know, do you know anything else other than these
20 things? And I would say, oh yeah, I know lots of things. And we'd
start talking about what their real issues were and, and start solving
them. I love that. So you were serving them
(17:24):
first. Always. Yes. I call it the drug
dealer, sales philosophy, which is, you know, first taste
is free. I have since learned that that is the principle of
reciprocity, which doctor Robert Cialdini came up with in
1984 in his book Influence. But at the time, I
just thought I was a dealer of information. No. I'm in Los Angeles. As
(17:46):
I mentioned, they have a lot of frozen yogurt places. Yeah. And they always
give you a little bit free. First taste is free. You bet. Is free.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you you had it in you without even
knowing. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. I love that. I
love that. Now I just this is a little side note. Just my curiosity.
Mhmm. Alright. So the greetings, don't say
(18:09):
don't say hello, don't say how are you doing. So those were
ineffective. What's an example of an effective greeting in that
setting? It's a it's a genuine question. So a
genuine question might be, are you familiar with us or our
product, or have you worked with us before? Or if you and and that
would start the qualification process. But even if you don't
(18:31):
wanna if you feel like that's too salesy, you can even say, have you seen
anything at the show today that really caught your attention? Just anything that
starts a conversation, a genuine conversation, as
opposed to those things that we automatically just answer and make it go
away. That's a good tip. That's a good
tip. I mean, for for them and for all of us
(18:54):
listening right now. Yeah. You can use that in lots of ways. You sure can.
People in terms of communicating. Mhmm. Because if people are used to
hearing this one phrase all the time, it's just tuned out and they give the
automatic answer. So thanks for the tip. You're welcome. Anytime.
Now would you say after doing all that and doing the work you have now,
do you feel like you have purpose in your work? Oh, I have purpose in
(19:15):
my work. In fact, all I ever wanted was to do
the work. I never wanted to start a company. I really enjoy the
work. And so I, recently accomplished my big,
hairy, audacious goal, my personal one, which was to not have to lead
this company. I never wanted to run the company. I just wanted to do the
work, and so my business partner has taken over leadership of the organization.
(19:37):
And as we speak right now, he's in strategic planning for our
business, and I'm here talking to you because that's what I like to do.
And so I have tons of purpose. My purpose is to
generate lifelong relationships and raving fans,
and and I get to do that every day. I love it. I'm glad that
work it worked out for us. Yeah. Worked out for me too.
(19:59):
You could be here and not doing strategic planning. Although, I do like strategic planning,
but I'm glad that you're here. Yeah. I like facilitating strategic
planning. So I work with other organizations and help
them have a slightly different perspective,
perhaps, on the strategy that they're pursuing and the actions that they can
take. I love doing that for others. I don't I
(20:22):
I just you know, I've been doing the same thing for a long time. I
don't really wanna do it for myself. Yeah.
Yeah. So do you think you you said earlier it wasn't so
deliberate. You were talking about your educational journey. But
coming to this point of having purpose, do you think you stumbled across it or
was it was there any intentionality in it? I think that that
(20:42):
was always in me, that I always wanted to develop those
relationships and develop them through helping
others. I think that's always been inside me. How I
got there though, I think was pretty lucky. You were guided by
helping others, though. Yeah. I was. I always liked that.
Yeah. And I think that's part of my family, my family
(21:04):
upbringing, my core and even, like, our our core values in our own
family. We help others when we can is one of our core values, which
means sometimes you can't, and that's okay. You know, you you still have to put
your oxygen mask on first. But when you can, you should.
And so, I think that's always been in me. Yeah. And that your
family has core values. I love that.
(21:26):
Yeah. Well, you know, it's it's interesting because there's a lot
less religion these days, and I certainly have no
interest in going into a discussion about religion at all. But what I will say
is in the past, when people were guided by religion,
the core values were kind of built in. Right? You know, don't kill other people
and or covet their wives or any of those things. Like, we knew what they
(21:48):
were. But today, religion plays a much
smaller role in most people's everyday lives, and so we have to
replace that with something. If we don't replace it with something, how are
kids supposed to know what's important? And how are
they supposed to find their purpose if they don't have those sort of
lines on the road about how they're supposed to behave? Yes.
(22:10):
Yes. I'm resonating with what you're saying because even
in my own teaching, I I teach that your
purpose is inside of you Mhmm. And you
can express it in a variety of ways. Mhmm. And I use this
acronym for YOU, Y O U, your own uniqueness
Yeah. To encapsulate what you talked about, what you
(22:33):
demonstrate so beautifully in your life and work, a combination
of some some one or more of something you love, your
passions, one or more of your values, like you're talking about,
the things that matter to you, one or more of your natural
abilities, your gifts, like yours for sales and
Yeah. Argument, which is really communication.
(22:55):
Yeah. Yes. So using a combination of those,
something, passion, values, natural abilities in service to
your point about helping others. And to me, when you combine those and
express it, no matter where you express it, you're in your purpose.
Yeah. Yeah. And I'd add to that. I think that that's very well put. And
I would add to that that I would put that emphasis on in
(23:17):
service of others. It's really hard to find a
purpose when you're only looking at yourself.
Agree. Agree. All right. So now speaking of
purpose, I'm thinking about the woman who's listening to the podcast right
now, and I describe them as high achieving women.
And this is what I mean by high achieving. Ambitious in a
(23:39):
positive way. Responsible. I've always been the responsible
one in all the settings.
Good at a few things. Good at things. They're
the ones people come to for advice, guidance
in their professional lives, also in their personal livesfamily,
community, neighborhood, whatever they're doingcould have a community event, and they're
(24:02):
asking her about something that she knows nothing about, but they come
to her. She's that person, And you say that like you
recognize that. You recognize that. I do recognize that person. Yeah.
So that's what I'm calling the high achieving woman. And now she's like checked all
the boxes, got the promotions, did all the things,
successful by everybody's measure, but unfulfilled.
(24:25):
Mhmm. Looking for meaning and purpose. She's the one
we're inspiring right now with this conversation. So
with her in mind, what's some thoughts you'd like to share with her
where she is in her journey, either from your personal experience
or from your professional experience or both?
Well, your question brings to mind a chat I was
(24:48):
having last night on WhatsApp. And there
is a group of 25 women that I am connected with.
They're all business. They happen to be in business. I don't know that that
was necessarily part of the selection process. But,
we play mahjong, which is a a Chinese tile
game. Most of them are of Asian descent. I am
(25:10):
not. And, it's a really complicated game,
like, really complicated. But what I love about this group
of women is that we're there to support each other all the
time. And the reason I bring it up is because I was at 10:00
last night texting about books and this and that, and
somebody else was talking about makeup. And I just said, I don't even wear it.
(25:32):
And we just go through this whole thing, but it's just such a supportive,
lovely community environment. And so I
think once you've reached that pinnacle or if
you're feeling like it's it's empty or it's not enough, or
even if you haven't reached the pinnacle, but you're feeling somewhat unfulfilled,
I really think that we're social creatures, and we have to find
(25:55):
others to share that journey and passion
with. And you can do it over a tile game,
or a book club or a community initiative that
you're involved with or whatever it is. I just I really think
that that's what kinda gets missed. We get so caught up
on measuring success in terms of money or
(26:19):
promotions or things that really I mean, listen. Money
matters. Of course. It matters to people when they don't have it, especially,
but there's so much more to it. And so, really, I
think if you're feeling a lack of purpose and a lack of passion, it's time
to reach out into the community and find a way to be of
service. You'll get way more back than you ever put in.
(26:41):
Yes. Yes. I agree wholeheartedly. Tara, that's
wisdom. That is wisdom.
Right. So now before we tell people where they could be in touch with you,
is there anything that I didn't ask you that you might want to share?
Do you have any thoughts on one more thing I want to say? And if
you don't, it's okay. But sometimes I give people the opportunity just in case
(27:02):
there's something that bubbles up that I didn't think to ask. Yeah,
There is two things. One of them is
the most important choice you will make is the person that you decide to spend
your life with. So make that choice
recognizing that that is the first level of community
that you're picking. I think it's really important. You need to have
(27:25):
aligned values if your values aren't aligned. And so that's why you need to know
what your values are. Because if you don't know what your own values
are, how in the world can you match them against someone else's?
So that's one thing. The other thing is when people listen to this
story, the way I've just recounted it, it sounds
like things were pretty smooth and easy, and they weren't at
(27:47):
all. It was really hard. I had horrible postpartum
after my first child. I had you know, we were
when I when we were here in 02/2008, we were living in my parents' condo.
We were fortunate to have a place to live. It was a two bedroom condo,
and there we were with this baby and no idea what we were gonna do
for, you know, anything. People go through
(28:10):
really hard things too. That's part of the story.
And so I think, you know, wherever you are, if you're at the peak or
the valley, when you step back five years later,
it's gonna be a completely different place. So it's not all sunshine and
happiness all the time. But when you average things out, they
can be pretty good. Yes. I'm glad you didn't let that go.
(28:32):
I'm glad you inserted that in there. I think somebody needs to hear
that. Yes. Alright. So now where can be people hear
more from you and be in touch with you? Well, I would love them to
connect on LinkedIn, Tara Landis. I would love for them
to check out my company website, which is
bellrock.ca. And we also offer management
(28:53):
training in our, program, which is, online,
asynchronous sorry. Synchronous online class delivered live.
The classes run once a month, but every class comes with a one on one
coaching session. So people learn the tools and the tricks, the
things like we were just talking about with the greeting, simple
practical tools, but then they get to speak with a coach a couple,
(29:16):
weeks later about how it went for them. And so they can find me
in any of those places. Okay. That sounds good. Tara, thank
you so much for spending time with us today. It was a delight to talk
with you. Thank you too. I really enjoyed this. Thanks so much.
Okay. Everyone, I'd love to hear your response to the episode.
Just send me a message on the
(29:39):
website, the
podcast website,
leadershippurposepodcast.com, leadershippurposepodcast Com. Or if you'd rather go on social media, I'm on all the
channels, but I spend most of my time in LinkedIn
at Robin L. Owens PhD, at Robin L. Owens PhD.
And I'd love to hear your response. And until
(30:01):
next time, this is Dr. Robin. Thank you
for tuning into this episode of the Leadership Purpose with
Dr. Robin podcast. If you enjoyed it, head on
over and rate and subscribe so you never miss
an episode. New episodes drop every week, and I can't
wait to hang out with you again
(30:23):
soon. Meanwhile, this is Dr. Robin
signing off. See you next time.
Welcome to the Leadership Purpose with Dr Robin podcast.
I'm your host, Robin L Owens, PhD. I'm a college
professor. And when I'm not doing that, I am teaching others
how to find and stay in alignment with their true purpose.
And this is where we talk with women who've made bold career
transitions in search for more meaning and purpose in
(00:24):
their work. So if you're feeling that pull toward more meaning and purpose in
your work or just curious about what's possible when you
pursue purpose over position, then these
conversations are here to encourage, inspire,
and guide you. Okay. Let's get started.
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Leadership
(00:47):
Purpose with Dr. Robin podcast. I'm so glad you're here and
you're listening to the podcast. I say it all the time and I will continue
to say it. I really appreciate you for listening into the
podcast. And because you've been such faithful listeners, you helped us
get ranked in the top 5% of all podcasts
globally according to Listen Notes. So
(01:09):
thank you for that, and help us keep it going. Review,
rate, subscribe to the podcast. And if you hear something today, which I'm
sure you will, that strikes you, go ahead and submit a
review. That'll really help us out. All right. So now,
today, and I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Today, I'm
talking with Tara Landes. Now, let me tell you a little bit
(01:32):
about Tara. After almost a decade of
working with small businesses throughout North America, Tara
returned to her birthplace of Vancouver, BC and began
looking for the same kind of job she had before,
small business consulting with deep implementation.
Unfortunately, or she says luckily,
(01:55):
she couldn't find a company to work for that did what
she loved to do, So she had to start her
own, her own company, so she founded BellRock
Benchmark Inc. It's a Canadian management consulting
firm that helps business leaders solve their most challenging problems
and implement lasting organizational
(02:18):
change. And in her work, Tara combines the best practices
from psychology and business management, and
she's been a trusted advisor to over 300 small
business leaders. Welcome, Tara Landes.
Thank you so much for having me, Doctor. Robin, and congratulations
on the top 5%. That's really something. There's a lot of podcasts
(02:41):
out here. So good for you for, for sticking with it and for doing such
a great job. Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you. And I'm glad
you're here. And as we were talking just before, I'm really excited about
delving into your story a little bit more. Right. Alright. Now you heard me just
read your sort of introduction bio. Right? But tell us in
your own words a little bit about two things, who you
(03:03):
are and then what you do. Okay. Who I
am? Well, I'm a I'm a mother and a wife and a daughter
and a dog owner, and a Canadian. And
I love the work that I do, which is helping people,
helping managers and leaders really develop the best
that they can in their work lives. So really try to
(03:25):
bring out find people's strengths and accent them
even further so that they become, all that they can
be, that they live their potential. Yeah. You that sounds you and I are
in alignment with our work, our respective work. So but how'd
you how'd you come to do this? I know you we thought we just heard
that you were looking for, but let's start. Tell that story.
(03:47):
Well, we can even go back further. So there I was. I
was working in telephone sales, selling
computers and computer products for a Fortune 500
company, and I knew that that was not my fate. I didn't even
really understand what I was selling, to be honest. So I was going to go
back to school, and everyone always thought I should be a lawyer. That was what
(04:08):
people told me. You should be a lawyer. You should go to law school because
you argue a lot. So, I went down that
path, and I wrote the LSAT. I did very well on the LSAT, if I
do say so myself. And then I met a lawyer because
I'd never talked to anyone about what lawyering was about. And
the lawyer said, do you wanna work eighty hours a week making $40 a year?
(04:30):
And I said, no. I don't. And so I went and did an MBA instead.
And, I went and did the MBA. I was very young. I was 26
when I graduated, and I was quite intimidated by
the job market. I went to a reasonably good school with some very
talented people around me, most of them older than me
with much more involved experience than I had
(04:53):
had. And I couldn't figure out what I wanted to do. I knew I didn't
wanna do finance, didn't like that. And I knew I didn't wanna be in a
big company because I tried that, and it just wasn't for me. I think it's
back to that arguing thing again. And so I found this small
business consulting firm, and they were hiring. And I thought, oh, that'd
be great. I'll just go it'll be like a paid internship, and I'll get to
(05:14):
go to all these different little businesses and see all the possible jobs and
all the possible industries, and I'll figure it out from there. So I
took that job, and the first company I worked with was
a cardboard box manufacturing company. And then I went to an
office refurbishment company, and then I went to a company
that ruggedized Toshiba laptops to
(05:37):
work in industry, like, out in the field. And then I went to a general
contractor. And everywhere I went, all the people
I mean, the industries were different, but the people were even
more different. And I just got really addicted to all these
different stories and these different people. And it turned out
that in small business, the stuff I knew how to do
(05:59):
was like brain surgery to them. The stuff they
know how to do, I had no idea how to do any of that stuff,
but I actually thought my stuff was pretty easy. And so
I really enjoyed going in and helping them with these tools that they
didn't necessarily have, putting them in place in their
company, and then leaving. I really liked that it was a
(06:21):
project, and the project would be over, and I could go.
And so that was really fun for the first year. But then
after that first year or so, I started going back to the old
clients that I'd had. And, you know, if I went from here to
there with them, when I left, they went from there,
like, you know, sky's the limit, and I became addicted to that
(06:42):
feeling. I was completely addicted to going back
and seeing the growth and the the amazing thing that they've
done. And it didn't have to be growth, by the way. I mean, it really
depended on what their goals were. Sometimes people wanted to take a
vacation. Sometimes they wanted to be able to sell the business. It didn't
matter what the goals were, but to be a part of helping
(07:04):
them in the at the foundational level get to those
goals was really rewarding for me, and I I just
fell in love with it. And so I'm still doing that today. I love
that you kinda centered it all around what your
gifts or strengths are, the thing that was easy for you
but hard for them. Yeah. And that was the whole thing.
(07:27):
And I love that because I also teach that in my own work about
one of my principles is that centralizing your natural
abilities. So I love that. Now let's go back a little bit though.
You talked about, okay, when you found out what law was all about, you're
like, No, that's not for me. Definitely not. Then you said, Okay, and
then I just went into an MBA. Why an MBA? Did you think
(07:49):
about it or was there something about an MBA that resonated with you
or did somebody say this is the best the next best thing if you're not
gonna do law? I mean, honestly, I wish I could tell you I
was very purposeful throughout my whole career. I wasn't
it sounded like fun. I do
like business. I've always liked business. I knew I wanted to have, you
(08:11):
know, a a real career, not just a job. I'd had
jobs that wasn't for me. It just seemed honestly, I
was just hiding out school. I mean, back then, it didn't cost
quite as much as it costs now, and you could hide there for a while
and just learn things. And my favorite thing to do actually is
learn. My favorite thing to do is go to school. When I retire, I will
(08:33):
go and do a whole bunch of degrees. I just, I really
enjoy learning. So it was a way to hide out. That's what I
did. Yeah. You and I have that in common. Love it. Love learning. Love
learning. But, you know, I think you said something that's important that you might be
overlooking. You said because it was fun. You thought an MBA might
be fun. Not everyone would think an MBA is fun. That's
(08:55):
fun. What that means, that tells me you had some interest
whether you were conscious of it or not. You had some interest. You said you
had interest in business because it sounded like it was fun.
So you already sort of somewhere knew that there was gonna be something you might
like in there. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I mean, I had I definitely had an
interest in business. And I'll also say the program I went to was a case
(09:16):
based program. So instead of having to study and
memorize, it was all about talking things through. I knew that that's where my
strength was, was in, speaking about things and and
talking through issues again back to that argument stuff. But I gotta
tell you, the real thing that attracted me to the particular program
I went to had nothing to do with the program itself at all.
(09:39):
They had a student run initiative where they would go and
teach business in the former Soviet Union. And
so the, you know, the wall had fallen. This was the year 1999. And
so I got to spend a month in Minsk, Belarus
and a month in Dnieper, Ukraine and teach business
to people there. And that was the main reason I
(10:01):
chose that program, which has nothing to do with the formal
education at all, but it was definitely a seminal
experience for me. Yeah. And definitely, I would say educational
even though it's outside. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, which is the point of
it. That's wonderful though. There was something about that
you knew. Is there something, because we just
(10:23):
mentioned both of us that you said, Yeah, you like business.
How did you know? Was there something in your experience
that let you know you liked business? My family
always, we talked about that at the dinner table and my father was an
executive and there had been a long history of sort of
not family business. We're not in family business, but just people working and getting
(10:46):
that's just sort of what you did. You went and got a career. That's what
you did. So that's what I had to do too. Yeah. That makes sense.
Is there anything in the experience of little Tara
who is anywhere resembling what you're doing now? Is
there anything that looks like some connection, some early
seeds of it? Well, I'll tell you a story. I was
(11:08):
a very, very shy kid, and I'm an only child. And when I
was, I think I was about six years old and we moved houses,
moved to a new neighborhood. It was the middle of summer. And, so I had
no friends in my little neighborhood, and I had no siblings
to play with. And so I wanted to find friends, but I was really
shy. So what I did is I took my mother's catalog. She
(11:30):
had a was the company was called Regal Greetings and Gifts. They're not
around anymore, but it was like gift cards and wrapping paper and things like
that. And you'd pick your orders, and then you'd go to the the
depot, the distribution place, and you'd go pick up what you wanted. So I
took the catalog, and I started going door to door in the neighborhood, and I
would knock on the door. Hi. My name is Tara. Do you have any kids
(11:52):
for me to play with? And if they said no, I wanted to have a
reason to be there. So I said, would you like to buy some greeting cards?
And I would show them the catalog. And I got I got
all these orders as I went around the neighborhood. So I think
I always enjoyed selling.
Yes. So cute. Yes. I was
(12:15):
manipulative in retrospect, but the time was so You got
orders. I got orders. Yeah. People because they felt bad. Oh, I don't
have anyone for this poor load. It's like the kids who set up the lemonade
stand and you're buying, giving them a quarter because you feel, look at them,
let's encourage it. Yeah. My lemonade was greeting cards.
I love that. You always had that little business. It was just part of
(12:36):
their natural abilities. Yeah. That came out later.
Wow. Alright. So tell us now more of the journey from the MBA
to where you are now. Right. So I had this job, and I was doing
this work all throughout North America. Really enjoyed what I was doing. I
really enjoyed getting to know the people. Even the terrible clients were
great clients because it was a it was an experience. It was a story to
(12:59):
tell. And, in 02/2007, I
fell pregnant with my first child and came to my senses and realized I
didn't wanna be traveling all over North America anymore. I just wanted to be
home. I want to go home at the end of the day. And
so my husband and I moved back to Vancouver, Canada where I'm originally
from, and I started looking for work. My husband was in
(13:22):
investment banking, and his company had agreed to move him to
Vancouver and set him up so he could start a practice here.
And so that's what we did, and there we were. And it
was 02/2008. You may recall
02/2008, there was a little bit of financial turmoil.
And my husband lost his job in a hot minute because he was just
(13:44):
starting up this, and now what are we gonna do? And I was
lamenting my fate to my previous employer saying, oh,
man, I'm gonna have to go get, like, a real job, and I can have
to go work at a bank or some big com it's the last thing I
wanna do is get one of those MBA jobs. And he just
said, so we are smart, girl. Go sell a project. Figure it
(14:05):
out. And I'm like, but I was never in sales. I just did the
consulting work. And he's like, okay. Well, then take one of those terrible jobs.
And so I really didn't want one of those terrible jobs. So
I had to find a way to start a company because nobody was doing that
kind of implementation work here, at least no one that I could find. And
did you, seek out help to like you
(14:28):
said, I don't know how to do it. Like, how did you get from there
to actually starting? Well, that person was very helpful to me that
my previous employer, just sort of giving me advice and also having, you
know, taught me for eight years or seven years. But what
I did is I started doing some mystery shopping.
And so I would go, to trade shows
(14:49):
and do mystery shopping on their trade show booths and
then try to get appointments with the leaders of those businesses to give them
their results to do the big reveal. It was tough. It was cold
calling. It was, you know, I'd call a hundred companies. I'd only
get through to three. Of the three, two would say yes. Of
the two that said yes, only one would actually keep the meeting,
(15:12):
and I was going to them. Like, they just would say, oh, no. We're too
busy, and I would have driven all that way. And but, hey, I got one
project and one led to another, and that company was born.
Wow. Yeah. Wow. So for for people who don't know, tell them
what mystery shopping is. Oh, well, mystery shop. We called it
mystery benchmarking, and so we would go to the trade show, typically a business to
(15:34):
business trade show. I say we because I did this for many years, but
then it was me. I should have said I. And I had 20
best practices that I was looking for. 10 of them had to do with the
visual experience of the booth, and 10 of them had to do
with the sales experience that I had when I approached the the
booth. And then I would just tell them I would
(15:57):
go to the meeting with the boss, and I would say, my intention
was to say, here's how you did. But what actually ended
up happening was that I would say, so this is the best
practice. As someone comes to the booth, they should be
actively greeted, for example, not passively greeted. So
someone should come to me, and then there are better and worse greetings.
(16:19):
So one of the worst greetings, although active is always
better, a worse greeting might be hello or how are
you or can I help you? Because we are programmed
through our experiences to just say, you know, can I help you? No. Thank you.
Just looking. How are you? I'm fine. Like, they aren't real questions.
So I'd explain the best practice. I wouldn't even have to tell them how
(16:41):
they did. They knew how they did. They would start say, oh, I bet
my person was, you know, sitting on their BlackBerry because this is back then. You're,
you know, looking or, oh, I bet this happened. Oh, I bet that happened. And
so all I really had to do was explain the best practices,
and it was back to that old experience of mine. The stuff that I knew
that was obvious to me, once they knew it, it was
(17:03):
obvious to them as well. But before they knew it,
it was, you know, a revelation. And so that's
how they would say, well, you know, do you know anything else other than these
20 things? And I would say, oh yeah, I know lots of things. And we'd
start talking about what their real issues were and, and start solving
them. I love that. So you were serving them
(17:24):
first. Always. Yes. I call it the drug
dealer, sales philosophy, which is, you know, first taste
is free. I have since learned that that is the principle of
reciprocity, which doctor Robert Cialdini came up with in
1984 in his book Influence. But at the time, I
just thought I was a dealer of information. No. I'm in Los Angeles. As
(17:46):
I mentioned, they have a lot of frozen yogurt places. Yeah. And they always
give you a little bit free. First taste is free. You bet. Is free.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you you had it in you without even
knowing. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. I love that. I
love that. Now I just this is a little side note. Just my curiosity.
Mhmm. Alright. So the greetings, don't say
(18:09):
don't say hello, don't say how are you doing. So those were
ineffective. What's an example of an effective greeting in that
setting? It's a it's a genuine question. So a
genuine question might be, are you familiar with us or our
product, or have you worked with us before? Or if you and and that
would start the qualification process. But even if you don't
(18:31):
wanna if you feel like that's too salesy, you can even say, have you seen
anything at the show today that really caught your attention? Just anything that
starts a conversation, a genuine conversation, as
opposed to those things that we automatically just answer and make it go
away. That's a good tip. That's a good
tip. I mean, for for them and for all of us
(18:54):
listening right now. Yeah. You can use that in lots of ways. You sure can.
People in terms of communicating. Mhmm. Because if people are used to
hearing this one phrase all the time, it's just tuned out and they give the
automatic answer. So thanks for the tip. You're welcome. Anytime.
Now would you say after doing all that and doing the work you have now,
do you feel like you have purpose in your work? Oh, I have purpose in
(19:15):
my work. In fact, all I ever wanted was to do
the work. I never wanted to start a company. I really enjoy the
work. And so I, recently accomplished my big,
hairy, audacious goal, my personal one, which was to not have to lead
this company. I never wanted to run the company. I just wanted to do the
work, and so my business partner has taken over leadership of the organization.
(19:37):
And as we speak right now, he's in strategic planning for our
business, and I'm here talking to you because that's what I like to do.
And so I have tons of purpose. My purpose is to
generate lifelong relationships and raving fans,
and and I get to do that every day. I love it. I'm glad that
work it worked out for us. Yeah. Worked out for me too.
(19:59):
You could be here and not doing strategic planning. Although, I do like strategic planning,
but I'm glad that you're here. Yeah. I like facilitating strategic
planning. So I work with other organizations and help
them have a slightly different perspective,
perhaps, on the strategy that they're pursuing and the actions that they can
take. I love doing that for others. I don't I
(20:22):
I just you know, I've been doing the same thing for a long time. I
don't really wanna do it for myself. Yeah.
Yeah. So do you think you you said earlier it wasn't so
deliberate. You were talking about your educational journey. But
coming to this point of having purpose, do you think you stumbled across it or
was it was there any intentionality in it? I think that that
(20:42):
was always in me, that I always wanted to develop those
relationships and develop them through helping
others. I think that's always been inside me. How I
got there though, I think was pretty lucky. You were guided by
helping others, though. Yeah. I was. I always liked that.
Yeah. And I think that's part of my family, my family
(21:04):
upbringing, my core and even, like, our our core values in our own
family. We help others when we can is one of our core values, which
means sometimes you can't, and that's okay. You know, you you still have to put
your oxygen mask on first. But when you can, you should.
And so, I think that's always been in me. Yeah. And that your
family has core values. I love that.
(21:26):
Yeah. Well, you know, it's it's interesting because there's a lot
less religion these days, and I certainly have no
interest in going into a discussion about religion at all. But what I will say
is in the past, when people were guided by religion,
the core values were kind of built in. Right? You know, don't kill other people
and or covet their wives or any of those things. Like, we knew what they
(21:48):
were. But today, religion plays a much
smaller role in most people's everyday lives, and so we have to
replace that with something. If we don't replace it with something, how are
kids supposed to know what's important? And how are
they supposed to find their purpose if they don't have those sort of
lines on the road about how they're supposed to behave? Yes.
(22:10):
Yes. I'm resonating with what you're saying because even
in my own teaching, I I teach that your
purpose is inside of you Mhmm. And you
can express it in a variety of ways. Mhmm. And I use this
acronym for YOU, Y O U, your own uniqueness
Yeah. To encapsulate what you talked about, what you
(22:33):
demonstrate so beautifully in your life and work, a combination
of some some one or more of something you love, your
passions, one or more of your values, like you're talking about,
the things that matter to you, one or more of your natural
abilities, your gifts, like yours for sales and
Yeah. Argument, which is really communication.
(22:55):
Yeah. Yes. So using a combination of those,
something, passion, values, natural abilities in service to
your point about helping others. And to me, when you combine those and
express it, no matter where you express it, you're in your purpose.
Yeah. Yeah. And I'd add to that. I think that that's very well put. And
I would add to that that I would put that emphasis on in
(23:17):
service of others. It's really hard to find a
purpose when you're only looking at yourself.
Agree. Agree. All right. So now speaking of
purpose, I'm thinking about the woman who's listening to the podcast right
now, and I describe them as high achieving women.
And this is what I mean by high achieving. Ambitious in a
(23:39):
positive way. Responsible. I've always been the responsible
one in all the settings.
Good at a few things. Good at things. They're
the ones people come to for advice, guidance
in their professional lives, also in their personal livesfamily,
community, neighborhood, whatever they're doingcould have a community event, and they're
(24:02):
asking her about something that she knows nothing about, but they come
to her. She's that person, And you say that like you
recognize that. You recognize that. I do recognize that person. Yeah.
So that's what I'm calling the high achieving woman. And now she's like checked all
the boxes, got the promotions, did all the things,
successful by everybody's measure, but unfulfilled.
(24:25):
Mhmm. Looking for meaning and purpose. She's the one
we're inspiring right now with this conversation. So
with her in mind, what's some thoughts you'd like to share with her
where she is in her journey, either from your personal experience
or from your professional experience or both?
Well, your question brings to mind a chat I was
(24:48):
having last night on WhatsApp. And there
is a group of 25 women that I am connected with.
They're all business. They happen to be in business. I don't know that that
was necessarily part of the selection process. But,
we play mahjong, which is a a Chinese tile
game. Most of them are of Asian descent. I am
(25:10):
not. And, it's a really complicated game,
like, really complicated. But what I love about this group
of women is that we're there to support each other all the
time. And the reason I bring it up is because I was at 10:00
last night texting about books and this and that, and
somebody else was talking about makeup. And I just said, I don't even wear it.
(25:32):
And we just go through this whole thing, but it's just such a supportive,
lovely community environment. And so I
think once you've reached that pinnacle or if
you're feeling like it's it's empty or it's not enough, or
even if you haven't reached the pinnacle, but you're feeling somewhat unfulfilled,
I really think that we're social creatures, and we have to find
(25:55):
others to share that journey and passion
with. And you can do it over a tile game,
or a book club or a community initiative that
you're involved with or whatever it is. I just I really think
that that's what kinda gets missed. We get so caught up
on measuring success in terms of money or
(26:19):
promotions or things that really I mean, listen. Money
matters. Of course. It matters to people when they don't have it, especially,
but there's so much more to it. And so, really, I
think if you're feeling a lack of purpose and a lack of passion, it's time
to reach out into the community and find a way to be of
service. You'll get way more back than you ever put in.
(26:41):
Yes. Yes. I agree wholeheartedly. Tara, that's
wisdom. That is wisdom.
Right. So now before we tell people where they could be in touch with you,
is there anything that I didn't ask you that you might want to share?
Do you have any thoughts on one more thing I want to say? And if
you don't, it's okay. But sometimes I give people the opportunity just in case
(27:02):
there's something that bubbles up that I didn't think to ask. Yeah,
There is two things. One of them is
the most important choice you will make is the person that you decide to spend
your life with. So make that choice
recognizing that that is the first level of community
that you're picking. I think it's really important. You need to have
(27:25):
aligned values if your values aren't aligned. And so that's why you need to know
what your values are. Because if you don't know what your own values
are, how in the world can you match them against someone else's?
So that's one thing. The other thing is when people listen to this
story, the way I've just recounted it, it sounds
like things were pretty smooth and easy, and they weren't at
(27:47):
all. It was really hard. I had horrible postpartum
after my first child. I had you know, we were
when I when we were here in 02/2008, we were living in my parents' condo.
We were fortunate to have a place to live. It was a two bedroom condo,
and there we were with this baby and no idea what we were gonna do
for, you know, anything. People go through
(28:10):
really hard things too. That's part of the story.
And so I think, you know, wherever you are, if you're at the peak or
the valley, when you step back five years later,
it's gonna be a completely different place. So it's not all sunshine and
happiness all the time. But when you average things out, they
can be pretty good. Yes. I'm glad you didn't let that go.
(28:32):
I'm glad you inserted that in there. I think somebody needs to hear
that. Yes. Alright. So now where can be people hear
more from you and be in touch with you? Well, I would love them to
connect on LinkedIn, Tara Landis. I would love for them
to check out my company website, which is
bellrock.ca. And we also offer management
(28:53):
training in our, program, which is, online,
asynchronous sorry. Synchronous online class delivered live.
The classes run once a month, but every class comes with a one on one
coaching session. So people learn the tools and the tricks, the
things like we were just talking about with the greeting, simple
practical tools, but then they get to speak with a coach a couple,
(29:16):
weeks later about how it went for them. And so they can find me
in any of those places. Okay. That sounds good. Tara, thank
you so much for spending time with us today. It was a delight to talk
with you. Thank you too. I really enjoyed this. Thanks so much.
Okay. Everyone, I'd love to hear your response to the episode.
Just send me a message on the
(29:39):
website, the
podcast website,
leadershippurposepodcast.com, leadershippurposepodcast Com. Or if you'd rather go on social media, I'm on all the
channels, but I spend most of my time in LinkedIn
at Robin L. Owens PhD, at Robin L. Owens PhD.
And I'd love to hear your response. And until
(30:01):
next time, this is Dr. Robin. Thank you
for tuning into this episode of the Leadership Purpose with
Dr. Robin podcast. If you enjoyed it, head on
over and rate and subscribe so you never miss
an episode. New episodes drop every week, and I can't
wait to hang out with you again
(30:23):
soon. Meanwhile, this is Dr. Robin
signing off. See you next time.
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