Imagine unlocking the secrets to nurturing mental well-being in our schools and communities—this is precisely what Dr. Tina Montreuil, a distinguished figure in counselling psychology at McGill University, helps us explore. Her journey from a passion for teaching to spearheading the Childhood Anxiety and Regulation of Emotions Laboratory (CARE) offers a unique lens on child internalizing disorders, particularly anxiety. In our conversation, Dr. Montreuil sheds light on the silent struggles of children and the transformative power of emotion regulation in their lives.
We tackle the pressing challenges lingering from the COVID-19 era, affecting educators and caregivers alike, with insights into the stress vulnerability model. This episode delves into the genetic and environmental factors shaping children's mental health, emphasizing the pivotal role of early intervention. With Dr. Montreuil, we discuss how creating nurturing environments can build resilience, and the importance of preparing future parents for mindful upbringing. It's a call to revolutionize how we perceive mental health, starting from our homes and classrooms.
As we reflect on the profound lessons of the pandemic, a shift from relentless individualism to a culture of community support emerges as a beacon of hope. Our dialogue emphasizes the necessity of living by values, embracing self-care, and maintaining connections that uplift us. We examine the balance between stress management and living sustainably, fostering resilience not through inherent traits but through deliberate practices. This episode is a reminder to reassess our paths, ensuring they lead to sustainable happiness and collective well-being.
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Episode Transcript
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Chris Colley (00:12):
Happy New Year to everyone out there.
We're back from 2024 into 2025here on Shifted Podcast.
Today we do resolutions a lotright At the start of our 2025,
I'd start a new year.
Okay, we're going to try this.
Well, I have an amazing guesthere today that's going to kind
(00:32):
of help us navigate the brainand how it functions around
mental health and well-being.
I have Dr.
Tina Montreuil from McGillUniversity Now.
Tina, you are an associateddirector for counselling
psychology, the appliedpsychology, and also director of
(00:54):
childhood anxiety andregulation of emotions
laboratory, which is CARE right.
Dr. Tina Montreuil (01:00):
Yes, it's summed up for CARE.
So we have various projects orinterests in our lab, but they
tend to focus around, you know,better understanding child
internalizing disorders, ofwhich anxiety is one of them.
Closely, emotion regulation isassociated with anxiety and our
(01:29):
focus is, yes, establishingthose associations but, more
importantly, trying to determineways, understanding the
mechanisms by which they areassociated, so that we can
actually help kids, you know,manage anxiety better and sort
of not suffer in silence.
And I think that's one of thethings why, for me, I'm an
expert of like, of course, childconduct disorders as well,
right, which are moreexternalizing.
(01:50):
But, in my experience, is that,you know, children who are
anxious, a lot of the times theywill not perturb the class,
they will not disturb the class,but they are still very much
experiencing psychological andemotional distress.
And that's why, as a researcher, guided by clinical interests,
I've decided to focus mainly onthose internalizing disorders,
(02:14):
of which anxiety.
Chris Colley (02:16):
Well, the brain is such a complicated thing, right
?
Emotions and all that, We'lldive into that.
But I'm so curious, you know,like, how did you?
How did you come to this spotin life?
What were some of your momentsin your timeline that kind of
brought you to where you are nowat McGill?
Dr. Tina Montreuil (02:34):
Yeah, so, um , you know, in preparation for
this, this podcast, I was kindof like thinking about that.
But I also had a colleague whowe were talking about history
very recently, another podcast,and it got me to also think
about.
You know, how far does it goback?
And so, as far as I canremember, like I'm the eldest of
three, three, three girls andum, and we were very sort of
(02:55):
close, close, tight knit,community Cause I grew up in a
small town and so as far as Ican remember, like I have very
strong recollections of justbeing the teacher, so being in
an educational setting, so itseems to be something that I've
always, that I've taken a likingto from a very early age.
(03:19):
And I guess, just like anybody Igrew up and you're kind of
trying to figure out what youwant to do, I think the sort of
pedagogical or teaching aspectof who I am today has sort of
intersected with, obviously, aperson who I have also a lot of
experiences in schools or whathave you.
(03:39):
I was always someone drawn tohelping people.
I don't know what it is.
I feel like I have this sort ofattunement to other people.
There's a way in me when I lookat people, I look at their
behavior, I look at theiremotional expression.
I tend to focus on that and I'mreally interested in
understanding what's going onbeyond what you see, and I have
(04:03):
memories of that from early onas well.
So I guess the crossroad is,you know, loving the aspect of
teaching and sort oftransferring knowledge,
supporting coaching, I guess,and then combining that with a
desire to help others feelbetter, um, kind of brought me
to who I am today.
(04:25):
So like, like it's kind ofcoming full circle.
It's not like I planned thisout, but it's kind of how it
happened.
And then I've gotten greatopportunities.
You know, you never become whoyou are on your just your own
being.
It starts from your home.
Of course.
I'm very fortunate to havegrown up in a home where people
believed in me and pushed me tosucceed.
But also, you know, like, how Icame to work in schools, because
(04:48):
I'm not a local Montrealer wascoming to McGill and studying
psychology there, and thencoming across this great program
which I believe still exists,but in a different location, but
the Taylor Adolescent Program.
And so that program really, youknow, was training psychology
(05:08):
students mainly to work as sortof like clinical tutors, so they
were matching you with studentsand finding you a sort of, I
guess, an internship.
So you were basically combiningwith a student and you got to
work with various schools andthrough these connections got to
eventually even work in school.
(05:30):
So I've worked for the EnglishMontreal School Board, I've
worked for the Lester E PearsonSchool Board mainly the Anglo
sector and I pretty much havehad every single position you
can imagine.
I've been a shadow, I've been ateacher's assistant, I've been
a sort of like childcare worker,so that was during my studies.
So working in schools during mymaster's added a lot of
(05:53):
contextual knowledge to mystudies, because that's what I
was, I was studying, you know.
You know inclusive educationand you know sort of curriculum
adaptation as part of being apsychologist and school
psychologist and and.
But it also, you know sort ofcurriculum adaptation as part of
being a psychologist and schoolpsychologist and and.
But it also, you know,contributed financially to my,
my, my, my, my path, and so thisis kind of a what brings me now
(06:15):
working in what I'm doing.
And it just so happened not tobe a professor at McGill but be
a professor at McGill and thefaculty of education, and that's
probably my biggest, probablymy biggest surprise in life.
It's really great.
I love what I'm doing, but Ican't say that I actually saw
that long-term.
I never sort of thought I'd beeventually a professor, but I
knew I would be helping peopleand so it's great because now,
(06:37):
really, if you look at my earlybeginnings, it's basically
brought me here, like being ableto teach as part of my capacity
and my role as an associateprofessor, but also teach what I
love to do, which is psychologyand helping people.
So it's like really an amazingjob really.
It's like it really feels likeit's something that I love doing
(06:59):
, because it goes way back.
Chris Colley (07:02):
Yeah, it's cool.
I see the circular path as well, um, really cool.
Um well, it kind of brings meto I mean, this podcast kind of
got started um out of covid, outof the pandemic, and trying to
keep teachers in touch and kindof having conversations with our
local people and stuff likethat, and I wanted to ask about
(07:26):
kind of start with the pandemic,because it did play a big role
and I think it still continues.
What do you think the biggestchallenges are for schools and
teachers and students if we putour minds in that realm
following the pandemic, like,how's our well-being going on in
(07:47):
schools nowadays?
You know, I mean, we're maybefour years-ish removed.
What have you noticed in yourobservations?
Dr. Tina Montreuil (07:58):
Yeah, so first, I always try to not have
an overly catastrophizing orpessimistic view of things,
right?
So I think it's factual.
The pandemic affected everybodychanged, I guess it kind of
left it marked, it createdsomething that none of us, I
(08:18):
think, maybe some of us that aremore pessimistic in nature, but
I think for most of us we weretaken aback because none of us
could have imagined that we'dever be placed in such a
situation and that it would playout the way it did.
You know, when you think about,you know we're talking about
the brain before.
Like every single fight orflight fiber of our body got
activated during this period,right From, let's say, from
(08:41):
biological, physiological fearsof contamination, all the way to
our lives completely changing,our homes becoming our places of
rest for most of us, nowbecoming associated as a place
of work.
So when I say all fibers of ourbody, both physiological the
fear of contamination but alsojust our well, just our
(09:03):
wellbeing mentally, got affectedby this one single commonly
experienced event.
So I think, without beingpessimistic or catastrophizing,
I think we're just talking,we're just speaking facts.
So that's kind of where I gofrom.
And then the other thing is thatyou know the the.
The thing is is that you knowwe already are our lifestyle,
(09:24):
like families and parents, as Iwas telling you before, like
it's kind of impossible to talkabout child well-being without
also addressing the systemicaspect, which is the family, the
closest micro system to theseindividuals.
But the thing is is that youknow a lot of us, having worked
in school, like, even like 10,12 years ago, you know we were
seeing, you know some familieswere both extremes of the
(09:45):
continuum Some families very lowSES, low education, perhaps
kids were coming to school withsome, you know, precarious
conditions.
But also the other extreme islike the families that are
overly, you know, you know,working a lot, traveling a lot,
so it's not that they don't havethe means to attend to their
kids, but they're just busy.
And so the school provided thisbasis of ensuring that.
(10:07):
You know we're training, we'reforming future citizens, right.
So it's almost like the schoolwas compensating for some of the
things that maybe at home,under certain conditions, were
more precarious, right, weremore precarious, right.
What ended up happening is thatbecause of the pandemic, I think
(10:28):
one thing that it caused isthat it destabilized, sort of
the middle, the people that wereprobably more stable that the
schools did not have to thencompensate for.
So therefore, you know, now theminority became a larger, I
wouldn't say majority, but itbecame a larger proportion, more
(10:49):
of the kids that were beforemore stable in the middle, even
good families.
All of a sudden, the conditionsof surrounding the pandemic
impacted these families andtherefore also impacted the
children.
Therefore there was a greater.
So it's kind of like, you know,like, think about it as a
faucet.
There's a small's, a small wave.
Okay, the school are feelingthe pressure in terms of what's
(11:09):
happening, but then all of asudden turn on the tap much
through much, much larger debit.
All of a sudden it's like thewave is a bit bigger, we have a
lot more demands coming in.
The other aspect of that is thatwhen I was talking about the
school, the, the role of theteachers, like I that's why for
me, I oftentimes interchangeablytalk about the parents as
agents of socializations forchildren.
(11:31):
But teachers as well, like ourkids in elementary school,
preschool, they spend eight,sometimes even like more, hours
per day in school.
So the influence of the teacheris ginormous, it's very
important.
So the influence of the teacheris ginormous, it's very
important.
And so therefore, you know,like, in a certain sense, like
the teachers are also agents ofsocialization.
(11:51):
So therefore, that's what Imean by the school was
compensating.
You know, if you have, maybesome kids came from harsh homes
where there was harsh parenting,but they came to school and the
teacher was supportive, theteacher was encouraging, the
teacher built their self-esteem.
That was great.
But another dimension is thatnow we have more demands from
the families and now we havepeople in schools that over time
(12:15):
, because this lasted for awhile, became tired.
We're talking about COVID,compassion, fatigue, and the
reality is that these people,the school staff, these amazing
people, became very tired and itnever really stopped for them.
And I think even I mean I'm notteaching in elementary or high
(12:38):
school, teaching in a universitysetting, but I think for most
of us we're seeing our staff,people are tired and we haven't
really stopped.
So then it brings me to thenputting these two things
together.
We have a lot more childrencoming in with emotion,
emotional issues, systemicissues, and then we have staff
(13:01):
that you know they chose thisvocation, this job, not because
they're being paid excessivelywell, but because they have the
care, the love of teaching andlove of working with children.
So there's still good peoplethere, those qualities are still
there, but you're tired oryou're deprived yourself and a
lot of the families I wastelling you about some of the
(13:22):
teachers, they were the onesimpacted with these sort of like
systemic, you know, having totake care of aging families,
maybe having lost some familiesto COVID, and then yet you still
are called upon going back intothe schools and supporting
others, and I think it's acombination of the two.
That now, to answer yourquestion hopefully as well as I
can, is that this is what'shappening now in the schools, is
(13:45):
that COVID has come and gone,but the aftermath it's still
there.
And you know, like people mightsay argue.
Well, you know the teachers,they don't have, they have
summers to rest.
Well, I think you know anyclinical psychologist will tell
you that the accumulated fatiguethat a lot of these teachers
have endured would require morethan just a summer.
It's not enough.
(14:06):
And so, therefore, I mean, Ithink this is to me what I see
and this is what explains, forexample, that you know, the
schools are still feeling,they're still feeling some of
the aftermath and there's, youknow, like we saw, some great
teachers, but I think we stillhave to think, I think you know,
from the ministry, ministriesperspective, from parents and
(14:27):
expectations of the teachers aswell that are teaching their
kids, is that, yes, covid isdone.
But you know these folks, youknow these, these, these givers,
these caregivers, by extension,have have endured a lot and
they haven't had, perhaps, Ithink, enough time to really
recover fully from COVID.
Chris Colley (14:47):
Yeah, I see that too.
Where it was never, there wasnever closure.
You just had to keep, you know,churning the mill and hoping
that you don't burn out or youknow.
And we're seeing that in howmany teachers are coming in to
become teachers pre-serviceteachers and the duration of
their careers tend to be alittle bit shorter and shorter
(15:11):
as time goes on.
I totally love that idea too.
I don't love the idea, but Ilike the awareness of that they
haven't stopped and that theyare tired.
You can see that a lot of thetime.
But that, that love forteaching, in that sense of
responsibility and duty, I meanteachers are amazing, strong
(15:33):
people.
That you know, they put theirheads down and they just go.
I wanted to ask you to kind ofaround that is is Is this kind
of like anxiety and mentalwell-being, something that kids
learn from parents, teachers,others, or is it part of them,
(15:54):
you know, do they have that inthem already and it takes
somebody to activate it?
But can you dive into that alittle bit of how do kids become
anxious and, you know, havedifficulty sometimes with their
mental health?
Dr. Tina Montreuil (16:11):
Yeah, so, like many, like many, just like,
if you take the model of thedevelopmental origins of disease
, you know we have somethingsimilar now as well with mental
health.
Is that?
Of course?
You know, like anything, we'reborn with our own temperament.
Each child has its owntemperament and temperament is
largely genetically sort ofwired right, like.
(16:33):
So, of course, you know, Ithink it's not impossible that
you have two parents thatthere's no history of.
I think let's take anxietyspecifically, and then you know,
could that result in a childbeing anxious?
Yes, but again it's.
Could that result in a childbeing anxious?
Yes, but again, it's all aboutthe incidents, right?
So it's never like causal,direct cause, but it's, it's the
(16:59):
likelihood of, or the increasedrisk of, right.
So so usually what we do see isthat, minimally, there's on one
side of the parents, thegenetic biological parents
there's, there's a there, thereis a lineage of either.
You know, it doesn't need to beanxiety specifically, it could
be anxiety, could be depression,could be anything else, but
there was something where therewas either suspected.
So that's why you often askthat, have to ask not just like
diagnosed, but sometimes peoplelive their entire lives without
(17:19):
an actual diagnosis, but likepeople will say oh yeah, like
whenever there was an incident,my mom was a worrier.
She was like you know she wouldbe preoccupied.
It was evident, you know shewas stressed out when people
come over these types of things.
So typically that's what wehave.
So there's something in geneticcomponent and you sort of talked
about that before, about, likeyou know that there's like
almost like a stressvulnerability model.
So you have a geneticpredisposition and then you know
(17:43):
you need an environment,something to basically trigger
the genetic predisposition to besort of like manifested, or we
call it phenotype.
So you have a.
It activates the manifestationrelated to the genetic
presentation.
So it's usually a combinationof both.
(18:04):
So that at the same time, I'malways careful how I address it,
because I never talk about Idon't want parents to think it's
the parents fault.
You know we do.
It's the parents fault ifyou're anxious.
That could be true.
Like you might grow up in anenvironment where it kind of was
more stressful and therefore itdid lead to you developing some
vulnerability when it comes toanxiety.
But the good side of that aswell is that because the
(18:26):
environment plays a role in sortof like setting up or turning
on your genetic vulnerability isthat you know if you lose, you
learn the tools your environmentcan also become one to buffer
this risk right.
So you may be born into afamily where you know your
parents were anxious and the waythey reacted.
(18:47):
That's why we, that's why I sayworking with kids, you have to
work with parents as well,because our response to our kids
will play a role in how theyexpress their emotions.
That we call that emotionsocialization, emotion
regulation, socializationbehaviors, because it sort of
sets the tone.
It's not exclusive, it's notcausal, but it's one of the
(19:08):
mechanisms by which it getsmanifested.
But so the positive take I wantto tell people as well is
that's why, you know, it's worthit for families to learn more
about emotion regulation and howto promote it in their children
.
It's worth it for schools andteachers to learn about it
because there's ways that we canchange it, and the earlier the
(19:31):
better, because when we'reyounger our brain is like,
there's brain plasticity, sothat means the brain is
malleable.
It has the ability toreorganize itself more in a more
easier, more feasible fashion.
Hence the whole aspect of my labthat studies and promotes
(19:52):
school-based mental health,which is let's give the kids the
tools before they become ill,so that when they do, perhaps by
implementing these strategies,they can either offset or at
least reduce the severity ofwhat is being manifested.
So it's twofold.
I think I always want to becareful not having that dialogue
(20:14):
without also highlighting thatyou know what?
Maybe you did grow up in anenvironment where it was anxiety
prone or induced induced, butyou have the ability via the
environment to also, how I couldsay, reverse things, reverse
the negative side effects.
And also that's why I'm workingin pregnancy now is that if we
(20:35):
teach parents even before theystart thinking about these
realities, is that hopefully, bythe time their children grow?
Chris Colley (20:53):
these positive, proactive changes can be
implemented in the system andthe environment to then sort of
create better outcomes, beingmuch more to the forefront
because we were seeing it muchmore often in our teachers
parents.
Like everyone was affected byit, as we said before.
With that in mind, what aresome tips or tricks here to
(21:21):
start this school year off thatyou would recommend for teachers
and parents to be aware of orto support that mental health in
the students and in their kids?
Dr. Tina Montreuil (21:28):
Yeah, I would say one of the first thing
is probably surrounding justorganization and the level of
activity that is in your family.
I think this is one of thethings that I'm trying to always
even myself like I'm speakingas a professional, but I'm
trying to always even myselflike I'm speaking as a
professional, but I'm also, um,a mom.
I mean, I have a family, right.
(21:50):
So, um, and I want to, I'malways conscientious of not
providing, you know, advice thatI don't myself, you know, um,
implement.
That's just my, my way, that Iwant to live my life by.
But point being is thatdefinitely it's, it's, there's a
systemic pressure to always bedoing something, the, the, the
(22:11):
sort of like irony positiveirony of the pandemic is that
you know, despite the fact thatpeople were stressed about, like
, sanitary issues and you knowthe health component, because a
lot of the things close and wereinterrupted, the reality is
that a lot of people reportedthat they were actually feeling
(22:36):
healthier after a few monthsbecause they were forced into
making a choice, a systemicchoice, and some activities were
reduced and therefore youweren't overworking yourself as
an individual, but also as afamily.
You didn't have to rush afterschool to bring your kids to
this activity or that activityevery single day.
(22:58):
That was not there.
So you kind of went about yourday of like, okay, you know what
, today I think I would like todo this and then let's, you know
, let's just do it.
So and I actually wanted thesort of caution like I remember
towards the end of the pandemicpeople were like, okay, so what
are the?
What's a cautionary tale thatyou envision as we're exiting,
(23:20):
as we're walking away, seeingthe end of the tunnel out of the
pandemic?
Was this very point.
Was that people forget quickly,as much as now, if I ask most
people either that I sawclinically or that I was doing a
lot of.
I was doing a lot of sort oftalks at the time and sort of
conference.
People were saying I'm so, I'mso glad that I just I'm doing
(23:43):
things more, maybe moreintuitively, you know, because
I'm kind of forced to, but I'mprioritizing my mental health.
I'm prioritizing my health.
I'm walking every day forcingyou into reducing the over
(24:05):
demand on your lifestyle.
You know you have to rememberthe benefits of it so that you
maintain it.
But I said I feel like for alot of people they're going to
go right back to where they wereand forget the benefits of
making these choices and forgetthe benefits of making these
(24:27):
choices.
So I think we're afraid, asfamilies, we compare ourselves a
lot to what other kids aredoing, what other parents are
supporting their kids inachieving, and we're really
filling up our activity, ourschedule and that has an impact.
So, therefore, you can have thebest strategies in the world to
manage anxiety.
(24:48):
But anxiety, you know, at thebase is the result of stress
that is not well managed and youknow.
So your schedule beingoverwhelmed and twofold, I think
, is one of the ways that I seefamilies struggle is that we do
too much and there's not enoughtime in one day or one week to
(25:11):
feasibly a lot of the times, beable to do everything that we do
sustainably.
Maybe right now it's working,but eventually you're going to
burn out, but that's the reality.
So I think you know that's oneof the things we have to do.
First and foremost, think aboutprioritizing and trying to, you
know, establish I was I wastalking about that during the
(25:31):
pandemic like what's your familyplan?
Like your family is.
We do that as part of parentingcare.
We always say like what's yourin case of emergency what's your
plan and do it based on yourvalues.
Emergency what's your plan anddo it based on your values?
And I think the more we can tryto focus our outlook on not what
the society is doing, not whatother people are.
(25:53):
You know, because there'salways, you know, like Instagram
.
You know Instagram versusreality.
You know like there's thesefamilies that seemingly even in
the media sometimes, you know wetalk about that a lot in
pregnancy.
Now, this is like what peoplepost-pregnancy looks like like
mom, like hair all well done,like makeup on, like nice
clothes, like lost all the babyweight.
(26:14):
And then the reality.
This is not what most women areexperiencing.
So I think we have to try toestablish what.
What does our family need?
And it may be less than others,but maybe it's healthy for us.
And so even with schools, maybethis teacher is able to do all
that I talk about that.
You know I compared to gardens.
You're looking at your, your,your fellow teacher, and they
(26:34):
seem like they're doing this andthat and oh my gosh, so it
looks so great what they'redoing and you're trying really
hard to to have that fruitgarden, but maybe you're like a
vegetable garden, you know, togive an analogy and so, and then
ultimately, like I comparemyself, I'm like I'm just a
vegetable garden, like I wish Iwas a fruit garden.
But ultimately, when you thinkabout it, like if I had to
(26:57):
choose one over the other, likeI shouldn't have to choose
because I need the fruits, Ineed the output of that
individual, but I also need theI know, also need the vegetables
.
So we we have, all of us havesomething to contribute.
And this is why I think I alwaysbring it back to my other point
about anxiety social supportcommunity.
(27:17):
Like during the pandemic, welost that.
So all of a sudden, because welost it, we valued it.
Now that we have it, how manyof us now, you know, when we
look at the pandemic, we're like, oh, if only I could go see my
mother, if only I could connectwith that neighbor.
And now we have the ability todo it.
How many of us are actuallydoing it Right?
(27:37):
We always sort of valuesomething once we don't have it,
we try to have a mindset ofmore taking advantage of it now
that we have it.
So that starts with priority.
So the social support.
Like back to my thing about likeyou know, how can I benefit?
One teacher has vegetables,like it's figurative right, but
one has fruits.
Well, we need to be incommunity to be able to benefit
(28:01):
from each other's output and so.
So, therefore, I'm seeing that,you know, we're going back to
being very individualistic, verysort of doing our own thing,
but ultimately that has a priceas well, because we can't
benefit from each other's giftsand contributions and skills and
aptitudes, right?
So there's very little benefitsto trying to be someone else.
(28:24):
Instead, let's fully assume whowe are and try to, in community
collectivity, try to benefit oralso capitalize on what others
have to offer in order to beable to just be more happy but
also to be less tired.
It goes back to my initial point, like being overworked.
Is there a that?
(28:45):
Is there a way that we can setup our work and our school
environments where maybe wecan't have two teachers in one
class?
The co-teaching model is notendorsed by the ministry, like
it is perhaps in other countriesor other schools, but is there
a way that we can share?
I don't know lesson preparation,I'm good at universal style,
you know sort of history andyou're good in math.
(29:07):
I'm really struggling when Ihave to do my math.
So instead of like not tellinganybody that I'm struggling with
putting together my math youknow, lesson you know can I just
be comfortable with who I am,share you know what I have to
give and then maybe benefit fromother people helping me out
with what they've prepared, andthen all of a sudden I can go
home earlier on a given daybecause I've, I've, I've been
able to, you know, complete mymy course preparation or my
(29:30):
class preparation moreefficiently, trying to be
someone else.
That I'm not Right and I knowit's very philosophical what I'm
saying, but I think we stillhave to think about that,
because that's how we wereliving in the pandemic and that
was the positive at the pandemic.
But now that we're out of thepandemic, we've kind of lost
these.
We've lost these kinds of,let's say, uh, you know, so
(29:52):
these, these, um, these lifelike, like life skills or things
that would benefit usultimately yeah, I love how to
your, your, we.
Chris Colley (30:01):
There were so many important lessons that we
learned from that period of timethat we all went through
together, and I love the idea ofreflecting back on it for the
positive things that came out ofit, where the rat race wasn't
always going on, you know, likewe had to, you know shelter in
place.
Sometimes we had curfews and weoften forget those lessons.
(30:25):
It was just like, almost likewe wanted to forget about it and
reassume the way we were before, without acknowledging that it
did change us and that we didlearn some insightful lessons,
as you're pointing out.
Dr. Tina Montreuil (30:41):
Well, let's not wait till it's forced upon
us, right?
Because that's what burnoutdoes as well.
I'll talk about the other thing.
Ultimately, you know, likedoing everything or trying to do
everything comes at a cost, ill.
And so there, that's what ourbodies, where I'm saying my
brain is shutting down becauseit's just too much, um, and then
(31:07):
it can lead into even like mybrain's overtiredness, can also
lead my body physiologically toshut down.
That's what a burnout is.
It's a psychological and aphysiological like let down.
I shut down, I'm just overlytired.
And there you know, like oncewe hit rock bottom, like we have
to stop.
So I always tell people likewhat, what's better?
(31:28):
To make conscious choice today,to sort of like slow things
down, which will help me managestress better, which ultimately
it's, it's all mathematical if Imanage stress better, I'm gonna
be less anxious, um, or waittill again, not a pandemic this
time, but a burnout actuallyslows down.
(31:48):
But the problem is that onceyou hit rock bottom like that,
the bottom of the barrel, with aburnout, it can take years to
really remit from that or getbetter from that.
So I think we have to.
We always think about what itcould be.
Oh, here's what I could be.
It's never good enough.
We're never good enough, butyou know, I think we also have
(32:10):
to learn to value where we're attoday based on what it could be
.
So think about the negative aswell and sort of use that as a
leverage of okay.
So maybe I need to make thesedecisions today to ensure that I
continue living my life in amore sustainable way and a
happier way as well, likehappiness is.
It's not a formula, it's notmoney, it's it's perspective,
(32:33):
right, it's.
It's based on values, it'sbased on a sense that I'm making
decision.
I have a sense of agency, asopposed to just running on
autopilot, right?
Chris Colley (32:41):
Right In control, rather than the world.
Dr. Tina Montreuil (32:46):
You know, I'm at the will, I'm just kind
of like, I'm just kind of like abouncing ball, like whatever,
but it doesn't need to be thisway.
And so this is why I always sayI could come up with the best
strategies, but you know, it'salmost like putting a bandaid on
an infected wound, right.
Ultimately, you know, thesestrategies can only really work
(33:07):
well if, systemically, you know,I'm at a place where things are
healthy and sustainable, right.
Chris Colley (33:15):
Yeah, for sure.
So, insightful, reallyinsightful, I mean.
I think just listening andhaving this conversation it's
starting to trigger ideas in meand reflecting and like it's
really interesting to kind oflook at yourself in the mirror a
little bit and be like this iswho I am and maybe I need to
(33:39):
adjust this or tweak that.
Or, you know, go and see theneighbor or you, whatever it
might be, that's going to beyour thing.
But I love this idea that wecan control it.
We don't have to be that kindof bouncing ball, as you said.
Dr. Tina Montreuil (33:53):
Exactly.
And also let's control it now,because eventually we're not
infallible.
And so, therefore, other thingsmaybe not a pandemic this time,
but other life circumstances,could you know?
We don't know.
Like you know things, thingshappen life.
Life is ups and downs, right,so let's not wait till something
on the outside of us stops us.
(34:13):
And how about we just try tomake some choices today that
will not at all costs preventyou know harmful things, or you
know sad things, from happening,but at least it's it's.
It's paving the way intocreating a more stable.
That's what emotion regulationis as well.
Right, it's like my ability totolerate the distress, potential
(34:37):
for distress that comes fromadversity.
Right, like, emotion regulationis not measured when all things
are going well.
What differentiates people thatare well regulated from those
that are not?
It's when they're tested.
Right, when periods ofadversity.
For some reason, people thathave better emotion regulated,
like, when they experienceadversity, they don't deal with
it in the same way, and I thinkwe know from research that it's
(35:00):
really based on their outlook.
It's based on, for example, ifI have less things going on left
and right and then all of asudden, I don't know, I break my
leg, for example, well then youknow, if I, the less things I
have, if my life was alreadymore manageable before that life
event, well then you know I'llbe better able to to just kind
(35:21):
of like address various needs.
If I'm running on, like youknow, almost like paycheck to
paycheck, that kind of analogylike if I'm running on like a
thin thread, if I'm like spreadleft and right and then an event
like that happens, for sureit's going to create a much more
overwhelming reaction, becauseI was already overwhelmed before
that event.
And now that that event isoccurring, well then I can't, I
(35:42):
can't address all the differentthings, right?
So well then I can't, I can'taddress all the the different
things, right?
So, um, it's also theperspective.
It's like, okay, maybe, maybethis bad thing happened, but you
know what?
I also have these things right.
So this idea ofcompartmentalizing our life like
that and making sure that it'sit's it's feasible if something
were to happen, it's all thenotion if something were to
(36:02):
happen, like would I still beable to manage all of that.
And I'm the worst at that aswell.
We know a lot of perfectionistsare the worst at that, because
we want to be doing everythingeverywhere.
But, like I'm reminded of that,as I'm telling it to you as
well, it is the way to do it andand that's why people and if we
study people that are naturallymore resilient and emotionally
regulated, that's they're not.
(36:24):
They're not better individualsnecessarily genetically than us.
It's just they often have thesesystemic features that can be
replicated by those that areless emotionally regulated.
This is the characteristicsaround their lives typically.
So it's not just genetics, it'slike.
This is how they tend to seelife, this is how they tend to
make the choices, this is basedon values and then.
(36:45):
So therefore, if that's whatthey do and they seem to be
better regulated, the idea isthat, well, if I sort of make
these same or implement orintroduce these same things in
my everyday life, thenessentially I should be able to
see those same types of benefits.
So I think the model by which Iidea of resiliency is that it's
(37:06):
not one that you're just bornwith.
It's one that you can actuallyin your environment, in your
systemic um, in your systemsthat you, you live by, whether
it's professional or personal um, it's one that can be harvested
, and that's really my, mymindset, that's my view of
things.
I think it's way moreencouraging and hopeful.
Um so, um so it really taps.
Chris Colley (37:26):
You can achieve that idea where you're not
limited.
You can always improve, you canalways try something else.
You can always practice a bitmore.
Like it's not like.
Nope, this is what I am.
Dr. Tina Montreuil (37:38):
Yes, it's like test it, try it and see and
you become the judge of it,right, but a lot of the times we
just we don't even stop.
That's why, again, the otheranother tool for emotion
regulation and anti-anxiety ismindfulness.
We need to be able, likeeverything I just said, to
achieve, for example, makingbetter choices, prioritizing,
(38:01):
you know, for example,socializing, you know, valuing
the, you know the sense ofcommunity.
Well, you can only achieve thatif you actually stop and think
about how you're living yourlife.
Right, mindfulness is that it'sjust being attuned to what I'm
thinking, what I'm doing.
So that's another thing.
If your life is busy, busy, busy, full, full, full, full, full,
well, you won't be able to bemindful, right, because it's too
full, it's too busy.
(38:22):
So that's why, you know, theidea of like prioritizing goes
hand in hand with being moremindful and being more mindful
that you can be more attuned toyour values.
And then it's like.
It's like once you trigger onething, it's kind of like always
give people the analogy like,imagine you're, you're riding
your bike you don't have a gearbike, ever old style bike.
You're, you're pedaling forwardand all of a sudden you want to
start pedaling backwards.
(38:43):
At first it's hard, like youknow, to kind of get it to
engage in the opposite direction, but eventually, once you do it
, like, oh, it's becoming muchmore, it's facilitated, right,
it's the same thing like thefirst.
Usually the first big change isthe hardest.
The mindset, perhaps, thebelief that you know it can
actually make a difference, justjust at your level of
(39:03):
conviction of like, oh well, youknow, like just this little
change will not make much of adifference, but what if it did?
How about you test you, youimplement it and you test and
you test and see and observe, um, and then usually, like, when
you do that, like, then the nextthing, and the next thing it
just kind of naturally fallsthrough.
The hardest part is justinitiating the change, um, and
(39:24):
that usually after you do that,it's much easier to implement
more changes to have a healthierlifestyle.
Chris Colley (39:32):
So cool.
Well, tina, this has just beenfascinating.
I want to have you back becausethere's so much more that I
have all these questions andnotes that we didn't get to, so
we'll definitely have to havethis other continuation of this
chat.
Didn't get to, so we'lldefinitely have to have this
other continuation of this chat.
I think you've made us all muchsmarter today, and what a great
episode to begin 2025 with um.
(39:52):
Just a little surge of thinkabout things a bit.
Think about you, think aboutyou know your likes, dislikes,
where you want to be.
Maybe you're doing too much.
Reduce down a bit, like allthese just wonderful thoughts
that I think that we should behaving at the beginning of the
year.
So, thank you so much for allof your insight and strategies
(40:13):
that you shared with us today.
It was so cool.
Dr. Tina Montreuil (40:16):
Well, it's my pleasure.
Thank you very much for yourinvitation.
Chris Colley (40:19):
Cool, and I wish you all the best in 2025.
And well, we'll be talking soon.
Dr. Tina Montreuil (40:26):
Thank you Right back at you.
Happy New Year to everyone out there.
We're back from 2024 into 2025here on Shifted Podcast.
Today we do resolutions a lotright At the start of our 2025,
I'd start a new year.
Okay, we're going to try this.
Well, I have an amazing guesthere today that's going to kind
(00:32):
of help us navigate the brainand how it functions around
mental health and well-being.
I have Dr.
Tina Montreuil from McGillUniversity Now.
Tina, you are an associateddirector for counselling
psychology, the appliedpsychology, and also director of
(00:54):
childhood anxiety andregulation of emotions
laboratory, which is CARE right.
Dr. Tina Montreuil (01:00):
Yes, it's summed up for CARE.
So we have various projects orinterests in our lab, but they
tend to focus around, you know,better understanding child
internalizing disorders, ofwhich anxiety is one of them.
Closely, emotion regulation isassociated with anxiety and our
(01:29):
focus is, yes, establishingthose associations but, more
importantly, trying to determineways, understanding the
mechanisms by which they areassociated, so that we can
actually help kids, you know,manage anxiety better and sort
of not suffer in silence.
And I think that's one of thethings why, for me, I'm an
expert of like, of course, childconduct disorders as well,
right, which are moreexternalizing.
(01:50):
But, in my experience, is that,you know, children who are
anxious, a lot of the times theywill not perturb the class,
they will not disturb the class,but they are still very much
experiencing psychological andemotional distress.
And that's why, as a researcher, guided by clinical interests,
I've decided to focus mainly onthose internalizing disorders,
(02:14):
of which anxiety.
Chris Colley (02:16):
Well, the brain is such a complicated thing, right
?
Emotions and all that, We'lldive into that.
But I'm so curious, you know,like, how did you?
How did you come to this spotin life?
What were some of your momentsin your timeline that kind of
brought you to where you are nowat McGill?
Dr. Tina Montreuil (02:34):
Yeah, so, um , you know, in preparation for
this, this podcast, I was kindof like thinking about that.
But I also had a colleague whowe were talking about history
very recently, another podcast,and it got me to also think
about.
You know, how far does it goback?
And so, as far as I canremember, like I'm the eldest of
three, three, three girls andum, and we were very sort of
(02:55):
close, close, tight knit,community Cause I grew up in a
small town and so as far as Ican remember, like I have very
strong recollections of justbeing the teacher, so being in
an educational setting, so itseems to be something that I've
always, that I've taken a likingto from a very early age.
(03:19):
And I guess, just like anybody Igrew up and you're kind of
trying to figure out what youwant to do, I think the sort of
pedagogical or teaching aspectof who I am today has sort of
intersected with, obviously, aperson who I have also a lot of
experiences in schools or whathave you.
(03:39):
I was always someone drawn tohelping people.
I don't know what it is.
I feel like I have this sort ofattunement to other people.
There's a way in me when I lookat people, I look at their
behavior, I look at theiremotional expression.
I tend to focus on that and I'mreally interested in
understanding what's going onbeyond what you see, and I have
(04:03):
memories of that from early onas well.
So I guess the crossroad is,you know, loving the aspect of
teaching and sort oftransferring knowledge,
supporting coaching, I guess,and then combining that with a
desire to help others feelbetter, um, kind of brought me
to who I am today.
(04:25):
So like, like it's kind ofcoming full circle.
It's not like I planned thisout, but it's kind of how it
happened.
And then I've gotten greatopportunities.
You know, you never become whoyou are on your just your own
being.
It starts from your home.
Of course.
I'm very fortunate to havegrown up in a home where people
believed in me and pushed me tosucceed.
But also, you know, like, how Icame to work in schools, because
(04:48):
I'm not a local Montrealer wascoming to McGill and studying
psychology there, and thencoming across this great program
which I believe still exists,but in a different location, but
the Taylor Adolescent Program.
And so that program really, youknow, was training psychology
(05:08):
students mainly to work as sortof like clinical tutors, so they
were matching you with studentsand finding you a sort of, I
guess, an internship.
So you were basically combiningwith a student and you got to
work with various schools andthrough these connections got to
eventually even work in school.
(05:30):
So I've worked for the EnglishMontreal School Board, I've
worked for the Lester E PearsonSchool Board mainly the Anglo
sector and I pretty much havehad every single position you
can imagine.
I've been a shadow, I've been ateacher's assistant, I've been
a sort of like childcare worker,so that was during my studies.
So working in schools during mymaster's added a lot of
(05:53):
contextual knowledge to mystudies, because that's what I
was, I was studying, you know.
You know inclusive educationand you know sort of curriculum
adaptation as part of being apsychologist and school
psychologist and and.
But it also, you know sort ofcurriculum adaptation as part of
being a psychologist and schoolpsychologist and and.
But it also, you know,contributed financially to my,
my, my, my, my path, and so thisis kind of a what brings me now
(06:15):
working in what I'm doing.
And it just so happened not tobe a professor at McGill but be
a professor at McGill and thefaculty of education, and that's
probably my biggest, probablymy biggest surprise in life.
It's really great.
I love what I'm doing, but Ican't say that I actually saw
that long-term.
I never sort of thought I'd beeventually a professor, but I
knew I would be helping peopleand so it's great because now,
(06:37):
really, if you look at my earlybeginnings, it's basically
brought me here, like being ableto teach as part of my capacity
and my role as an associateprofessor, but also teach what I
love to do, which is psychologyand helping people.
So it's like really an amazingjob really.
It's like it really feels likeit's something that I love doing
(06:59):
, because it goes way back.
Chris Colley (07:02):
Yeah, it's cool.
I see the circular path as well, um, really cool.
Um well, it kind of brings meto I mean, this podcast kind of
got started um out of covid, outof the pandemic, and trying to
keep teachers in touch and kindof having conversations with our
local people and stuff likethat, and I wanted to ask about
(07:26):
kind of start with the pandemic,because it did play a big role
and I think it still continues.
What do you think the biggestchallenges are for schools and
teachers and students if we putour minds in that realm
following the pandemic, like,how's our well-being going on in
(07:47):
schools nowadays?
You know, I mean, we're maybefour years-ish removed.
What have you noticed in yourobservations?
Dr. Tina Montreuil (07:58):
Yeah, so first, I always try to not have
an overly catastrophizing orpessimistic view of things,
right?
So I think it's factual.
The pandemic affected everybodychanged, I guess it kind of
left it marked, it createdsomething that none of us, I
(08:18):
think, maybe some of us that aremore pessimistic in nature, but
I think for most of us we weretaken aback because none of us
could have imagined that we'dever be placed in such a
situation and that it would playout the way it did.
You know, when you think about,you know we're talking about
the brain before.
Like every single fight orflight fiber of our body got
activated during this period,right From, let's say, from
(08:41):
biological, physiological fearsof contamination, all the way to
our lives completely changing,our homes becoming our places of
rest for most of us, nowbecoming associated as a place
of work.
So when I say all fibers of ourbody, both physiological the
fear of contamination but alsojust our well, just our
(09:03):
wellbeing mentally, got affectedby this one single commonly
experienced event.
So I think, without beingpessimistic or catastrophizing,
I think we're just talking,we're just speaking facts.
So that's kind of where I gofrom.
And then the other thing is thatyou know the the.
The thing is is that you knowwe already are our lifestyle,
(09:24):
like families and parents, as Iwas telling you before, like
it's kind of impossible to talkabout child well-being without
also addressing the systemicaspect, which is the family, the
closest micro system to theseindividuals.
But the thing is is that youknow a lot of us, having worked
in school, like, even like 10,12 years ago, you know we were
seeing, you know some familieswere both extremes of the
(09:45):
continuum Some families very lowSES, low education, perhaps
kids were coming to school withsome, you know, precarious
conditions.
But also the other extreme islike the families that are
overly, you know, you know,working a lot, traveling a lot,
so it's not that they don't havethe means to attend to their
kids, but they're just busy.
And so the school provided thisbasis of ensuring that.
(10:07):
You know we're training, we'reforming future citizens, right.
So it's almost like the schoolwas compensating for some of the
things that maybe at home,under certain conditions, were
more precarious, right, weremore precarious, right.
What ended up happening is thatbecause of the pandemic, I think
(10:28):
one thing that it caused isthat it destabilized, sort of
the middle, the people that wereprobably more stable that the
schools did not have to thencompensate for.
So therefore, you know, now theminority became a larger, I
wouldn't say majority, but itbecame a larger proportion, more
(10:49):
of the kids that were beforemore stable in the middle, even
good families.
All of a sudden, the conditionsof surrounding the pandemic
impacted these families andtherefore also impacted the
children.
Therefore there was a greater.
So it's kind of like, you know,like, think about it as a
faucet.
There's a small's, a small wave.
Okay, the school are feelingthe pressure in terms of what's
(11:09):
happening, but then all of asudden turn on the tap much
through much, much larger debit.
All of a sudden it's like thewave is a bit bigger, we have a
lot more demands coming in.
The other aspect of that is thatwhen I was talking about the
school, the, the role of theteachers, like I that's why for
me, I oftentimes interchangeablytalk about the parents as
agents of socializations forchildren.
(11:31):
But teachers as well, like ourkids in elementary school,
preschool, they spend eight,sometimes even like more, hours
per day in school.
So the influence of the teacheris ginormous, it's very
important.
So the influence of the teacheris ginormous, it's very
important.
And so therefore, you know,like, in a certain sense, like
the teachers are also agents ofsocialization.
(11:51):
So therefore, that's what Imean by the school was
compensating.
You know, if you have, maybesome kids came from harsh homes
where there was harsh parenting,but they came to school and the
teacher was supportive, theteacher was encouraging, the
teacher built their self-esteem.
That was great.
But another dimension is thatnow we have more demands from
the families and now we havepeople in schools that over time
(12:15):
, because this lasted for awhile, became tired.
We're talking about COVID,compassion, fatigue, and the
reality is that these people,the school staff, these amazing
people, became very tired and itnever really stopped for them.
And I think even I mean I'm notteaching in elementary or high
(12:38):
school, teaching in a universitysetting, but I think for most
of us we're seeing our staff,people are tired and we haven't
really stopped.
So then it brings me to thenputting these two things
together.
We have a lot more childrencoming in with emotion,
emotional issues, systemicissues, and then we have staff
(13:01):
that you know they chose thisvocation, this job, not because
they're being paid excessivelywell, but because they have the
care, the love of teaching andlove of working with children.
So there's still good peoplethere, those qualities are still
there, but you're tired oryou're deprived yourself and a
lot of the families I wastelling you about some of the
(13:22):
teachers, they were the onesimpacted with these sort of like
systemic, you know, having totake care of aging families,
maybe having lost some familiesto COVID, and then yet you still
are called upon going back intothe schools and supporting
others, and I think it's acombination of the two.
That now, to answer yourquestion hopefully as well as I
can, is that this is what'shappening now in the schools, is
(13:45):
that COVID has come and gone,but the aftermath it's still
there.
And you know, like people mightsay argue.
Well, you know the teachers,they don't have, they have
summers to rest.
Well, I think you know anyclinical psychologist will tell
you that the accumulated fatiguethat a lot of these teachers
have endured would require morethan just a summer.
It's not enough.
(14:06):
And so, therefore, I mean, Ithink this is to me what I see
and this is what explains, forexample, that you know, the
schools are still feeling,they're still feeling some of
the aftermath and there's, youknow, like we saw, some great
teachers, but I think we stillhave to think, I think you know,
from the ministry, ministriesperspective, from parents and
(14:27):
expectations of the teachers aswell that are teaching their
kids, is that, yes, covid isdone.
But you know these folks, youknow these, these, these givers,
these caregivers, by extension,have have endured a lot and
they haven't had, perhaps, Ithink, enough time to really
recover fully from COVID.
Chris Colley (14:47):
Yeah, I see that too.
Where it was never, there wasnever closure.
You just had to keep, you know,churning the mill and hoping
that you don't burn out or youknow.
And we're seeing that in howmany teachers are coming in to
become teachers pre-serviceteachers and the duration of
their careers tend to be alittle bit shorter and shorter
(15:11):
as time goes on.
I totally love that idea too.
I don't love the idea, but Ilike the awareness of that they
haven't stopped and that theyare tired.
You can see that a lot of thetime.
But that, that love forteaching, in that sense of
responsibility and duty, I meanteachers are amazing, strong
(15:33):
people.
That you know, they put theirheads down and they just go.
I wanted to ask you to kind ofaround that is is Is this kind
of like anxiety and mentalwell-being, something that kids
learn from parents, teachers,others, or is it part of them,
(15:54):
you know, do they have that inthem already and it takes
somebody to activate it?
But can you dive into that alittle bit of how do kids become
anxious and, you know, havedifficulty sometimes with their
mental health?
Dr. Tina Montreuil (16:11):
Yeah, so, like many, like many, just like,
if you take the model of thedevelopmental origins of disease
, you know we have somethingsimilar now as well with mental
health.
Is that?
Of course?
You know, like anything, we'reborn with our own temperament.
Each child has its owntemperament and temperament is
largely genetically sort ofwired right, like.
(16:33):
So, of course, you know, Ithink it's not impossible that
you have two parents thatthere's no history of.
I think let's take anxietyspecifically, and then you know,
could that result in a childbeing anxious?
Yes, but again it's.
Could that result in a childbeing anxious?
Yes, but again, it's all aboutthe incidents, right?
So it's never like causal,direct cause, but it's, it's the
(16:59):
likelihood of, or the increasedrisk of, right.
So so usually what we do see isthat, minimally, there's on one
side of the parents, thegenetic biological parents
there's, there's a there, thereis a lineage of either.
You know, it doesn't need to beanxiety specifically, it could
be anxiety, could be depression,could be anything else, but
there was something where therewas either suspected.
So that's why you often askthat, have to ask not just like
diagnosed, but sometimes peoplelive their entire lives without
(17:19):
an actual diagnosis, but likepeople will say oh yeah, like
whenever there was an incident,my mom was a worrier.
She was like you know she wouldbe preoccupied.
It was evident, you know shewas stressed out when people
come over these types of things.
So typically that's what wehave.
So there's something in geneticcomponent and you sort of talked
about that before, about, likeyou know that there's like
almost like a stressvulnerability model.
So you have a geneticpredisposition and then you know
(17:43):
you need an environment,something to basically trigger
the genetic predisposition to besort of like manifested, or we
call it phenotype.
So you have a.
It activates the manifestationrelated to the genetic
presentation.
So it's usually a combinationof both.
(18:04):
So that at the same time, I'malways careful how I address it,
because I never talk about Idon't want parents to think it's
the parents fault.
You know we do.
It's the parents fault ifyou're anxious.
That could be true.
Like you might grow up in anenvironment where it kind of was
more stressful and therefore itdid lead to you developing some
vulnerability when it comes toanxiety.
But the good side of that aswell is that because the
(18:26):
environment plays a role in sortof like setting up or turning
on your genetic vulnerability isthat you know if you lose, you
learn the tools your environmentcan also become one to buffer
this risk right.
So you may be born into afamily where you know your
parents were anxious and the waythey reacted.
(18:47):
That's why we, that's why I sayworking with kids, you have to
work with parents as well,because our response to our kids
will play a role in how theyexpress their emotions.
That we call that emotionsocialization, emotion
regulation, socializationbehaviors, because it sort of
sets the tone.
It's not exclusive, it's notcausal, but it's one of the
(19:08):
mechanisms by which it getsmanifested.
But so the positive take I wantto tell people as well is
that's why, you know, it's worthit for families to learn more
about emotion regulation and howto promote it in their children
.
It's worth it for schools andteachers to learn about it
because there's ways that we canchange it, and the earlier the
(19:31):
better, because when we'reyounger our brain is like,
there's brain plasticity, sothat means the brain is
malleable.
It has the ability toreorganize itself more in a more
easier, more feasible fashion.
Hence the whole aspect of my labthat studies and promotes
(19:52):
school-based mental health,which is let's give the kids the
tools before they become ill,so that when they do, perhaps by
implementing these strategies,they can either offset or at
least reduce the severity ofwhat is being manifested.
So it's twofold.
I think I always want to becareful not having that dialogue
(20:14):
without also highlighting thatyou know what?
Maybe you did grow up in anenvironment where it was anxiety
prone or induced induced, butyou have the ability via the
environment to also, how I couldsay, reverse things, reverse
the negative side effects.
And also that's why I'm workingin pregnancy now is that if we
(20:35):
teach parents even before theystart thinking about these
realities, is that hopefully, bythe time their children grow?
Chris Colley (20:53):
these positive, proactive changes can be
implemented in the system andthe environment to then sort of
create better outcomes, beingmuch more to the forefront
because we were seeing it muchmore often in our teachers
parents.
Like everyone was affected byit, as we said before.
With that in mind, what aresome tips or tricks here to
(21:21):
start this school year off thatyou would recommend for teachers
and parents to be aware of orto support that mental health in
the students and in their kids?
Dr. Tina Montreuil (21:28):
Yeah, I would say one of the first thing
is probably surrounding justorganization and the level of
activity that is in your family.
I think this is one of thethings that I'm trying to always
even myself like I'm speakingas a professional, but I'm
trying to always even myselflike I'm speaking as a
professional, but I'm also, um,a mom.
I mean, I have a family, right.
(21:50):
So, um, and I want to, I'malways conscientious of not
providing, you know, advice thatI don't myself, you know, um,
implement.
That's just my, my way, that Iwant to live my life by.
But point being is thatdefinitely it's, it's, there's a
systemic pressure to always bedoing something, the, the, the
(22:11):
sort of like irony positiveirony of the pandemic is that
you know, despite the fact thatpeople were stressed about, like
, sanitary issues and you knowthe health component, because a
lot of the things close and wereinterrupted, the reality is
that a lot of people reportedthat they were actually feeling
(22:36):
healthier after a few monthsbecause they were forced into
making a choice, a systemicchoice, and some activities were
reduced and therefore youweren't overworking yourself as
an individual, but also as afamily.
You didn't have to rush afterschool to bring your kids to
this activity or that activityevery single day.
(22:58):
That was not there.
So you kind of went about yourday of like, okay, you know what
, today I think I would like todo this and then let's, you know
, let's just do it.
So and I actually wanted thesort of caution like I remember
towards the end of the pandemicpeople were like, okay, so what
are the?
What's a cautionary tale thatyou envision as we're exiting,
(23:20):
as we're walking away, seeingthe end of the tunnel out of the
pandemic?
Was this very point.
Was that people forget quickly,as much as now, if I ask most
people either that I sawclinically or that I was doing a
lot of.
I was doing a lot of sort oftalks at the time and sort of
conference.
People were saying I'm so, I'mso glad that I just I'm doing
(23:43):
things more, maybe moreintuitively, you know, because
I'm kind of forced to, but I'mprioritizing my mental health.
I'm prioritizing my health.
I'm walking every day forcingyou into reducing the over
(24:05):
demand on your lifestyle.
You know you have to rememberthe benefits of it so that you
maintain it.
But I said I feel like for alot of people they're going to
go right back to where they wereand forget the benefits of
making these choices and forgetthe benefits of making these
(24:27):
choices.
So I think we're afraid, asfamilies, we compare ourselves a
lot to what other kids aredoing, what other parents are
supporting their kids inachieving, and we're really
filling up our activity, ourschedule and that has an impact.
So, therefore, you can have thebest strategies in the world to
manage anxiety.
(24:48):
But anxiety, you know, at thebase is the result of stress
that is not well managed and youknow.
So your schedule beingoverwhelmed and twofold, I think
, is one of the ways that I seefamilies struggle is that we do
too much and there's not enoughtime in one day or one week to
(25:11):
feasibly a lot of the times, beable to do everything that we do
sustainably.
Maybe right now it's working,but eventually you're going to
burn out, but that's the reality.
So I think you know that's oneof the things we have to do.
First and foremost, think aboutprioritizing and trying to, you
know, establish I was I wastalking about that during the
(25:31):
pandemic like what's your familyplan?
Like your family is.
We do that as part of parentingcare.
We always say like what's yourin case of emergency what's your
plan and do it based on yourvalues.
Emergency what's your plan anddo it based on your values?
And I think the more we can tryto focus our outlook on not what
the society is doing, not whatother people are.
(25:53):
You know, because there'salways, you know, like Instagram
.
You know Instagram versusreality.
You know like there's thesefamilies that seemingly even in
the media sometimes, you know wetalk about that a lot in
pregnancy.
Now, this is like what peoplepost-pregnancy looks like like
mom, like hair all well done,like makeup on, like nice
clothes, like lost all the babyweight.
(26:14):
And then the reality.
This is not what most women areexperiencing.
So I think we have to try toestablish what.
What does our family need?
And it may be less than others,but maybe it's healthy for us.
And so even with schools, maybethis teacher is able to do all
that I talk about that.
You know I compared to gardens.
You're looking at your, your,your fellow teacher, and they
(26:34):
seem like they're doing this andthat and oh my gosh, so it
looks so great what they'redoing and you're trying really
hard to to have that fruitgarden, but maybe you're like a
vegetable garden, you know, togive an analogy and so, and then
ultimately, like I comparemyself, I'm like I'm just a
vegetable garden, like I wish Iwas a fruit garden.
But ultimately, when you thinkabout it, like if I had to
(26:57):
choose one over the other, likeI shouldn't have to choose
because I need the fruits, Ineed the output of that
individual, but I also need theI know, also need the vegetables
.
So we we have, all of us havesomething to contribute.
And this is why I think I alwaysbring it back to my other point
about anxiety social supportcommunity.
(27:17):
Like during the pandemic, welost that.
So all of a sudden, because welost it, we valued it.
Now that we have it, how manyof us now, you know, when we
look at the pandemic, we're like, oh, if only I could go see my
mother, if only I could connectwith that neighbor.
And now we have the ability todo it.
How many of us are actuallydoing it Right?
(27:37):
We always sort of valuesomething once we don't have it,
we try to have a mindset ofmore taking advantage of it now
that we have it.
So that starts with priority.
So the social support.
Like back to my thing about likeyou know, how can I benefit?
One teacher has vegetables,like it's figurative right, but
one has fruits.
Well, we need to be incommunity to be able to benefit
(28:01):
from each other's output and so.
So, therefore, I'm seeing that,you know, we're going back to
being very individualistic, verysort of doing our own thing,
but ultimately that has a priceas well, because we can't
benefit from each other's giftsand contributions and skills and
aptitudes, right?
So there's very little benefitsto trying to be someone else.
(28:24):
Instead, let's fully assume whowe are and try to, in community
collectivity, try to benefit oralso capitalize on what others
have to offer in order to beable to just be more happy but
also to be less tired.
It goes back to my initial point, like being overworked.
Is there a that?
(28:45):
Is there a way that we can setup our work and our school
environments where maybe wecan't have two teachers in one
class?
The co-teaching model is notendorsed by the ministry, like
it is perhaps in other countriesor other schools, but is there
a way that we can share?
I don't know lesson preparation,I'm good at universal style,
you know sort of history andyou're good in math.
(29:07):
I'm really struggling when Ihave to do my math.
So instead of like not tellinganybody that I'm struggling with
putting together my math youknow, lesson you know can I just
be comfortable with who I am,share you know what I have to
give and then maybe benefit fromother people helping me out
with what they've prepared, andthen all of a sudden I can go
home earlier on a given daybecause I've, I've, I've been
able to, you know, complete mymy course preparation or my
(29:30):
class preparation moreefficiently, trying to be
someone else.
That I'm not Right and I knowit's very philosophical what I'm
saying, but I think we stillhave to think about that,
because that's how we wereliving in the pandemic and that
was the positive at the pandemic.
But now that we're out of thepandemic, we've kind of lost
these.
We've lost these kinds of,let's say, uh, you know, so
(29:52):
these, these, um, these lifelike, like life skills or things
that would benefit usultimately yeah, I love how to
your, your, we.
Chris Colley (30:01):
There were so many important lessons that we
learned from that period of timethat we all went through
together, and I love the idea ofreflecting back on it for the
positive things that came out ofit, where the rat race wasn't
always going on, you know, likewe had to, you know shelter in
place.
Sometimes we had curfews and weoften forget those lessons.
(30:25):
It was just like, almost likewe wanted to forget about it and
reassume the way we were before, without acknowledging that it
did change us and that we didlearn some insightful lessons,
as you're pointing out.
Dr. Tina Montreuil (30:41):
Well, let's not wait till it's forced upon
us, right?
Because that's what burnoutdoes as well.
I'll talk about the other thing.
Ultimately, you know, likedoing everything or trying to do
everything comes at a cost, ill.
And so there, that's what ourbodies, where I'm saying my
brain is shutting down becauseit's just too much, um, and then
(31:07):
it can lead into even like mybrain's overtiredness, can also
lead my body physiologically toshut down.
That's what a burnout is.
It's a psychological and aphysiological like let down.
I shut down, I'm just overlytired.
And there you know, like oncewe hit rock bottom, like we have
to stop.
So I always tell people likewhat, what's better?
(31:28):
To make conscious choice today,to sort of like slow things
down, which will help me managestress better, which ultimately
it's, it's all mathematical if Imanage stress better, I'm gonna
be less anxious, um, or waittill again, not a pandemic this
time, but a burnout actuallyslows down.
(31:48):
But the problem is that onceyou hit rock bottom like that,
the bottom of the barrel, with aburnout, it can take years to
really remit from that or getbetter from that.
So I think we have to.
We always think about what itcould be.
Oh, here's what I could be.
It's never good enough.
We're never good enough, butyou know, I think we also have
(32:10):
to learn to value where we're attoday based on what it could be
.
So think about the negative aswell and sort of use that as a
leverage of okay.
So maybe I need to make thesedecisions today to ensure that I
continue living my life in amore sustainable way and a
happier way as well, likehappiness is.
It's not a formula, it's notmoney, it's it's perspective,
(32:33):
right, it's.
It's based on values, it'sbased on a sense that I'm making
decision.
I have a sense of agency, asopposed to just running on
autopilot, right?
Chris Colley (32:41):
Right In control, rather than the world.
Dr. Tina Montreuil (32:46):
You know, I'm at the will, I'm just kind
of like, I'm just kind of like abouncing ball, like whatever,
but it doesn't need to be thisway.
And so this is why I always sayI could come up with the best
strategies, but you know, it'salmost like putting a bandaid on
an infected wound, right.
Ultimately, you know, thesestrategies can only really work
(33:07):
well if, systemically, you know,I'm at a place where things are
healthy and sustainable, right.
Chris Colley (33:15):
Yeah, for sure.
So, insightful, reallyinsightful, I mean.
I think just listening andhaving this conversation it's
starting to trigger ideas in meand reflecting and like it's
really interesting to kind oflook at yourself in the mirror a
little bit and be like this iswho I am and maybe I need to
(33:39):
adjust this or tweak that.
Or, you know, go and see theneighbor or you, whatever it
might be, that's going to beyour thing.
But I love this idea that wecan control it.
We don't have to be that kindof bouncing ball, as you said.
Dr. Tina Montreuil (33:53):
Exactly.
And also let's control it now,because eventually we're not
infallible.
And so, therefore, other thingsmaybe not a pandemic this time,
but other life circumstances,could you know?
We don't know.
Like you know things, thingshappen life.
Life is ups and downs, right,so let's not wait till something
on the outside of us stops us.
(34:13):
And how about we just try tomake some choices today that
will not at all costs preventyou know harmful things, or you
know sad things, from happening,but at least it's it's.
It's paving the way intocreating a more stable.
That's what emotion regulationis as well.
Right, it's like my ability totolerate the distress, potential
(34:37):
for distress that comes fromadversity.
Right, like, emotion regulationis not measured when all things
are going well.
What differentiates people thatare well regulated from those
that are not?
It's when they're tested.
Right, when periods ofadversity.
For some reason, people thathave better emotion regulated,
like, when they experienceadversity, they don't deal with
it in the same way, and I thinkwe know from research that it's
(35:00):
really based on their outlook.
It's based on, for example, ifI have less things going on left
and right and then all of asudden, I don't know, I break my
leg, for example, well then youknow, if I, the less things I
have, if my life was alreadymore manageable before that life
event, well then you know I'llbe better able to to just kind
(35:21):
of like address various needs.
If I'm running on, like youknow, almost like paycheck to
paycheck, that kind of analogylike if I'm running on like a
thin thread, if I'm like spreadleft and right and then an event
like that happens, for sureit's going to create a much more
overwhelming reaction, becauseI was already overwhelmed before
that event.
And now that that event isoccurring, well then I can't, I
(35:42):
can't address all the differentthings, right?
So well then I can't, I can'taddress all the the different
things, right?
So, um, it's also theperspective.
It's like, okay, maybe, maybethis bad thing happened, but you
know what?
I also have these things right.
So this idea ofcompartmentalizing our life like
that and making sure that it'sit's it's feasible if something
were to happen, it's all thenotion if something were to
(36:02):
happen, like would I still beable to manage all of that.
And I'm the worst at that aswell.
We know a lot of perfectionistsare the worst at that, because
we want to be doing everythingeverywhere.
But, like I'm reminded of that,as I'm telling it to you as
well, it is the way to do it andand that's why people and if we
study people that are naturallymore resilient and emotionally
regulated, that's they're not.
(36:24):
They're not better individualsnecessarily genetically than us.
It's just they often have thesesystemic features that can be
replicated by those that areless emotionally regulated.
This is the characteristicsaround their lives typically.
So it's not just genetics, it'slike.
This is how they tend to seelife, this is how they tend to
make the choices, this is basedon values and then.
(36:45):
So therefore, if that's whatthey do and they seem to be
better regulated, the idea isthat, well, if I sort of make
these same or implement orintroduce these same things in
my everyday life, thenessentially I should be able to
see those same types of benefits.
So I think the model by which Iidea of resiliency is that it's
(37:06):
not one that you're just bornwith.
It's one that you can actuallyin your environment, in your
systemic um, in your systemsthat you, you live by, whether
it's professional or personal um, it's one that can be harvested
, and that's really my, mymindset, that's my view of
things.
I think it's way moreencouraging and hopeful.
Um so, um so it really taps.
Chris Colley (37:26):
You can achieve that idea where you're not
limited.
You can always improve, you canalways try something else.
You can always practice a bitmore.
Like it's not like.
Nope, this is what I am.
Dr. Tina Montreuil (37:38):
Yes, it's like test it, try it and see and
you become the judge of it,right, but a lot of the times we
just we don't even stop.
That's why, again, the otheranother tool for emotion
regulation and anti-anxiety ismindfulness.
We need to be able, likeeverything I just said, to
achieve, for example, makingbetter choices, prioritizing,
(38:01):
you know, for example,socializing, you know, valuing
the, you know the sense ofcommunity.
Well, you can only achieve thatif you actually stop and think
about how you're living yourlife.
Right, mindfulness is that it'sjust being attuned to what I'm
thinking, what I'm doing.
So that's another thing.
If your life is busy, busy, busy, full, full, full, full, full,
well, you won't be able to bemindful, right, because it's too
full, it's too busy.
(38:22):
So that's why, you know, theidea of like prioritizing goes
hand in hand with being moremindful and being more mindful
that you can be more attuned toyour values.
And then it's like.
It's like once you trigger onething, it's kind of like always
give people the analogy like,imagine you're, you're riding
your bike you don't have a gearbike, ever old style bike.
You're, you're pedaling forwardand all of a sudden you want to
start pedaling backwards.
(38:43):
At first it's hard, like youknow, to kind of get it to
engage in the opposite direction, but eventually, once you do it
, like, oh, it's becoming muchmore, it's facilitated, right,
it's the same thing like thefirst.
Usually the first big change isthe hardest.
The mindset, perhaps, thebelief that you know it can
actually make a difference, justjust at your level of
(39:03):
conviction of like, oh well, youknow, like just this little
change will not make much of adifference, but what if it did?
How about you test you, youimplement it and you test and
you test and see and observe, um, and then usually, like, when
you do that, like, then the nextthing, and the next thing it
just kind of naturally fallsthrough.
The hardest part is justinitiating the change, um, and
(39:24):
that usually after you do that,it's much easier to implement
more changes to have a healthierlifestyle.
Chris Colley (39:32):
So cool.
Well, tina, this has just beenfascinating.
I want to have you back becausethere's so much more that I
have all these questions andnotes that we didn't get to, so
we'll definitely have to havethis other continuation of this
chat.
Didn't get to, so we'lldefinitely have to have this
other continuation of this chat.
I think you've made us all muchsmarter today, and what a great
episode to begin 2025 with um.
(39:52):
Just a little surge of thinkabout things a bit.
Think about you, think aboutyou know your likes, dislikes,
where you want to be.
Maybe you're doing too much.
Reduce down a bit, like allthese just wonderful thoughts
that I think that we should behaving at the beginning of the
year.
So, thank you so much for allof your insight and strategies
(40:13):
that you shared with us today.
It was so cool.
Dr. Tina Montreuil (40:16):
Well, it's my pleasure.
Thank you very much for yourinvitation.
Chris Colley (40:19):
Cool, and I wish you all the best in 2025.
And well, we'll be talking soon.
Dr. Tina Montreuil (40:26):
Thank you Right back at you.
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