February 12, 2025 • 28 mins
Can “traditional" education methods be doing more harm than good? Join us for a thought-provoking conversation with renowned author and lecturer Alfie Kohn, as he challenges the status quo of grading and memorization, advocating for a shift towards fostering cooperation, altruism, and empathy in our schools. Alfie reflects on his own unremarkable schooling experience to highlight how ingrained practices often overshadow the deeper educational objectives we should aim for. By questioning whether current methods align with our long-term goals for children, Alfie inspires us to consider the potential for reimagining education to cultivate critical and compassionate thinkers.
In a world of standardized tests and rigid curricula, how can teachers empower themselves and their students? We explore strategies for overcoming these systemic constraints by embracing student-centered learning. Alfie and I discuss practical steps like minimizing traditional grading and employing authentic assessments, while also addressing the political nature of educational structures. This episode is a call to action for educators to incorporate more student voice and problem-solving in their classrooms, paving the way for a brighter future in education.
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Episode Transcript
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Chris Colley (00:13):
Here we are, another episode Shift Ed podcast
coming to you out of shiverycold Montreal, and I have a
wonderful guest today.
We were having some connectionproblems but we figured those
out and I have Alfie Cohen here,author, lecturer.
Amazing research he does aroundeducation and looking at our
(00:39):
system and looking for betterways and looking for better ways
.
A very big student of JohnDewey and Jean Piaget and I
think a lot of their mindsetshave informed Alfie's mindset as
well.
So, alfie, thanks so much forhopping on here and sharing some
thoughts with us today.
Alfie Kohn (00:59):
My pleasure.
Chris Colley (01:02):
So I usually like to get started with kind of a
rewind into your past.
What was your schooling like?
Alfie Kohn (01:11):
where you were growing up Like.
Chris Colley (01:12):
What are your recollections of school as a
student, as a kid in school?
Alfie Kohn (01:18):
It was fairly unexceptional.
I went to public school in theUS, nothing very exciting.
Only later did I begin toreflect on the things that, as a
child, you take for granted and, unfortunately, many adults
take for granted as well All thethings about schooling you just
(01:40):
think are part of life.
That kids are going to begraded and tested, lectured to
have nothing to say about thecurriculum, going to be punished
and rewarded for obedience,going to be memorizing facts
rather than doing meaningfulthinking, going to be grouped by
(02:05):
ability or by age, etc.
All of those things that youknow.
We just think that's the way itis.
And gradually I came to realizeit's not the way it has to be
and got going on looking atpilot projects and extraordinary
teachers in schools and whatthe research suggests and so on.
(02:25):
So I'm happy to talk about anyof the ideas, but I don't think
my own autobiography sheds muchlight on those ideas or is
necessarily relevant tolisteners who've had different
experiences.
Chris Colley (02:40):
Right, but I mean it sounds very much like the
industrial model that we've hadin education for you know, for a
while now.
Yep, that's right, the tippingpoint as you were coming into
(03:02):
your career writing books andobserving education, what were
some of the really meaningful orpowerful moments where your
mindset kind of shifted a littlebit or started to open up to
other ideas about how educationcould be?
Alfie Kohn (03:20):
I wrote my first book some time ago about the
destructive effects ofcompetition in all areas of life
, not only at school but also athome, at work and at play, and
started thinking about andlearning about cooperative
learning as an alternative in aschool setting, realizing that
(03:41):
students don't have to beseparated from each other and
told that helping is the same ascheating or worse, set against
each other in a contest so thatmy success comes only at the
price of your failure.
And then I wrote another bookabout altruism and empathy and
once again started to thinkabout the educational
(04:02):
implications.
Once again started to thinkabout the educational
implications how can we useschools to help kids become more
caring and generous people andfound great examples of programs
that were doing that, as wellas relevant research, and went
on to think about thedestructive effects of not only
(04:23):
competition but any kind ofreward that says do this and
you'll get that.
And once again, I'm interestedin how these ideas play out in
different arenas in our society.
But found myself drawnincreasingly to thinking about
schooling in particular, and bythen I'd had some experience as
(04:44):
a teacher too.
But only after that did I pullfrom these other bases of
research and theory, to thinkabout how schooling can be more
student-centered, moremeaningful and so on, and found
that the research in factsuggests that what's sometimes
(05:06):
called progressive oralternative or constructivist
ways of teaching and learningaren't just a lot more pleasant,
but are a hell of a lot moreeffective, particularly at more
meaningful goals particularly atmore meaningful goals.
(05:27):
And so I started writing booksabout education in particular
and inviting teachers andparents and others to reflect
not only on methods but on ourobjectives.
What are we looking for here?
And the more ambitious youreducational objective, the worse
the status quo fares.
In other words, if all you careabout is having kids sit
(05:52):
quietly and cram someforgettable facts into
short-term memory, then you knowmaybe we're not doing so bad.
But if we want kids to becritical thinkers and lifelong
learners and decent, caring,compassionate human beings, then
the status quo is an abysmalfailure.
(06:13):
And so that's why I alwaysbegin my lectures and workshops
for teachers and also forparents, by asking the question
what are your long-term goalsfor kids?
And I get the same kind ofanswers wherever I go.
And then what I do for a living, basically, is to say you say
(06:34):
you want this, so why are youdoing that?
Because here's the researchshowing that that doesn't get
you this.
Chris Colley (06:44):
Interesting that that doesn't get you this
Interesting.
Yeah, I mean I love to.
I read your Punished by Rewardsand I just felt that that it
opened so many thoughts anddifferent perspectives to look
at and it kind of was informedalso from your other book, the
Brighter Side of the HumanNature.
Humans are not naturallyselfish.
(07:06):
Do you think that that haschanged over time?
Like you wrote this book in1990, right, the Brighter Side
of Human Nature, that's right.
Has there been shifts in humannature over since you've written
that book?
Like I mean, that was you knowwe're getting on 30 plus years.
Does society change quickly?
(07:28):
Like, have you noticed anydifference about that idea that
humans are selfish?
Alfie Kohn (07:35):
Well, the human nature itself isn't going to
shift in 30 years or even in 300years.
The question is, how do ourideas about human nature shift?
And it's certainly fair to ask,you know, whether I'm as
optimistic as I was 30 years ago, or how our culture may or may
(08:00):
not have shifted in its viewsregarding human nature.
But I mean, we're at a prettydark period politically right
now and it takes an effort ofwill to remind ourselves that we
have the capacity to do better.
You know, right now it'sbeginning to look not only for
(08:22):
what's going on in the US and,to a lesser but still
significant extent, in Canadaand in many other countries.
It's beginning to look as ifthe idea of democracy was a
short-lived experiment in humanhistory, was a short-lived
experiment in human history.
But I continue to believe thathumans have the capacity to be
(08:47):
aggressive or peaceful, to becompetitive or cooperative, to
be selfish or to be pro-social,and we have the capacity to move
in a different direction.
It doesn't mean it's easy,because there are strong,
embedded structural impedimentsto to doing things that are that
(09:11):
are better, but education is asgood as any other entry point
for trying to help people changetheir beliefs and the practices
that flow from the beliefs.
You know, if our schools areset up to create, fundamentally,
(09:32):
obedience, if the primary goalin a classroom that you visit
appears to be to get the kids todo whatever they're told and
follow rules they had no part inhelping to create, then that's
a message kids take with them ascitizens they are.
(09:55):
That's why, you know, youmentioned Dewey before.
He was interested in democracyas something far wider and
richer than just, you know,voting every couple of years.
What does it mean to be part ofan autonomous community where
(10:17):
people have something to sayabout what happens to them every
day at work or at school?
And so what a great opportunityto redesign schools so that
kids have an active role indeciding how they're going to
(10:38):
learn and what they're going tolearn, and so on.
You know kids learn to makegood decisions by making
decisions, not by followingdirections.
So, then, the challenge foreducators is how do we create
schools with kids, not just forthem, to help them become
(10:58):
thoughtful decision makers?
Chris Colley (11:02):
And have you seen, like I mean through your
research and exploration ofeducation have you seen schools
that, or examples where thathappens, where the school is
created with students and theiropinions are cherished and where
it's more of a give and takebetween student and teacher?
Alfie Kohn (11:25):
Oh, yes, I write about those examples in my books
and articles and blog posts.
In one book I wrote the SchoolsOur Children Deserve the Schools
Our Children Deserve.
It's filled not only withresearch but also with samples
of interdisciplinary,project-based, student-designed
(11:48):
learning at all different agelevels.
And I did another book just forteachers, called Beyond
Discipline, where I look at thenon-academic aspects of
schooling, the social, moral,behavioral issues, and I drew
from amazing teachers I watchedall over the place, not only
(12:10):
from research, to talk aboutwhat it means to create a caring
, democratic community in placeof traditional classroom
management and discipline, aplace where kids are being
helped to be good people, notjust good learners, and it's
done by having an environmentthat's about working with kids
(12:31):
instead of doing things to them.
So, yes, if this is not stuffyou know that I think up just
sitting at my desk in a vacuumor extrapolate from.
You know, reading theoreticalworks.
The best research on this iscorroborated by the best
(12:52):
practice that really is outthere but remains a minority
report, so to speak remains aminority report, so to speak.
Chris Colley (13:03):
Great, great, and I agree with you.
I mean, it seems too thathaving that more
student-centered, progressivelook on education gets
sidestepped because of all thesestructures that we have in
place and also a feeling thateducators feel kind of
constrained with, you know,large classrooms and they have
to teach the test, and you knowfunding for education we'll say
(13:24):
in Canada, is limited as well.
Right, so it's a struggle forteachers.
With that in mind, how do yousupport teacher growth?
But within those constraints,like, how do they, how can they
move beyond thinking about, well, I have to teach you to test
and I have, like all these, youknow, structural gears that we
(13:47):
have within the educationalsystem, how can teachers start
to move beyond that where it'snot an excuse to say, well, I
can't look at progressive orstudent-centered because I have
all of these requirements?
How does that conversationstart, alfie?
Alfie Kohn (14:07):
It starts by distinguishing between
short-term and long-term kindsof change, and I think we have
to engage in both simultaneously.
Simultaneously.
The short-term question is,given the constraints that
you've mentioned of having atop-down standardized curriculum
and often with exams thatstudents have to write and be
(14:29):
prepared for, how can I minimizethe damage of that in my own
classroom?
How can I?
Nothing about that structureprevents me from doing more
asking than telling, and even inthe worst class school systems
(14:51):
I have found teachers who givekids an enormous amount of
discretion to really thoughtfullessons, while managing to also
prepare them for the damn test.
They realize that they don'thave to do punishments and
rewards.
They don't have to assignhomework so that kids work a
second shift after they get homefrom a full day in school,
(15:13):
which has no benefits,especially below high school,
according to the best research.
They can do authenticassessment to see how things are
going and never give a test and, above all, never use a mark,
never put a letter or number onanything a child has done, which
research shows has threeeffects when you grade children.
(15:37):
First, it makes kids a lot lessexcited about learning.
Second, it makes them kidsprefer the easiest possible task
, not because they're lazy, butbecause they're rational.
You know, duh?
Of course I'm not going to wantto challenge myself.
If the goal in here is to getan A or a 100 or whatever, that
(15:58):
I'm going to do the easiestthing because it's not a
learning classroom, it's agrade-oriented classroom.
And the third effect is thatkids tend to think in a
shallower, more superficial waycompared to students learning
the identical material with nogrades at all.
So all of those thingsungrading classrooms, getting
rid of the many traditionalfeatures can be done to a
(16:22):
meaningful extent even in thesame bad system we're in.
In the short term you minimizethe damage but at the same time
just have to put up with theseare political decisions and
(16:47):
they're bad ones.
And just as we organize andmobilize to make other kinds of
social change, so we have toorganize and mobilize to
challenge these things.
So we have to organize andmobilize to challenge these
things.
(17:30):
And I offer examples in my booksof people who have boycotted
the tests, refused to take them.
If they're know, a member ofParliament who knows less about
learning than we do has imposedon us professional development
in both the US and Canada.
And there's two things I'venoticed.
I've spoken in all tenprovinces in Canada as well as
one territory, and I'll give youtwo examples of two
(17:52):
generalizations.
The first is that in mostCanadian provinces the teachers,
through their unions, decide onwho to bring in for
professional developmentworkshops, so the teachers
themselves can make the decisionof how we want to learn better,
to be better at our craft.
That's very unusual in the USwhere usually it's
(18:15):
administrators who decide whatthe teachers have to sit through
.
That's a point in Canada'sfavor.
But the second generalization isthat even in Canadian provinces
and districts where teachersare very unhappy about the
testing that the students haveto do and that the teachers have
(18:37):
to teach to, there is verylittle critical reaction to,
very little critical thoughtabout and pushback on how
standardized and regimented thecurriculums are.
This is true even in theprovinces where there's very
little in the way ofstandardized testing, especially
(19:01):
for the youngest kids inSaskatchewan and Manitoba, at
least for a while.
But the idea that here comes acurriculum so that if you're
teaching grade four you knowyou're going to be doing rocks
and minerals this year,regardless of whether the kids
have any interest in it orbackground in it or whatever,
(19:23):
and you cannot have astudent-centered classroom if
you have a standardizedcurriculum that you're required
to teach.
The teacher has very littlemeaningful autonomy as a
professional educator if everygrade four classroom in the
province has to be learning thesame damn thing regardless.
(19:46):
So in other words, it doesn'tmatter who your kids are this
year and how they may differfrom the kids you had last year,
you have to be teaching thesame damn thing.
And the amazing thing aboutthat is it's not only a fatal
obstacle to the best kind ofteaching.
The most amazing thing to me isthat Canadian teachers don't
even seem to realize with somehappy exceptions how awful this
(20:13):
is and how they ought to bedoing everything possible to
change this standardization.
Chris Colley (20:22):
Yeah, I totally agree.
I've been doing work with somepre-service teachers as well and
I'm amazed how they teach theway they were taught right, and
I mean, I guess that's how thecycle just keeps going.
Is that when you're becoming ateacher, you go to your closest
reference of teaching, which istypically the traditional stand
and deliver where kids are quiet, and you are the deliverer of
(20:46):
knowledge, I guess, or content.
I should say I love that idea.
What would you give as advicefor teachers where they're
listening to this and they'resaying yes, yes, yes, and then
they're faced with.
You know again the curriculum.
What are some small littlesteps that they could tweak to
(21:10):
open the doors up a little bitmore on student voice and
student centered learning?
You know more.
You know having kids solveproblems within the class,
develop skills which we tend tooverlook as well.
You know all the soft skillsthat kids are going to
desperately need in the futureare.
Where does the journey kind ofstart, alfie, if you could offer
(21:31):
a few little tidbits from yourexperience where teachers tend
to get started to start making alittle bit more of a shift
towards giving back the learningto the kids.
Alfie Kohn (21:44):
I would start with the kids' questions about
themselves and the world.
In fact, there's an approachcalled curriculum integration,
(22:05):
created by an American educatornamed James Bean, b-e-a-n-e into
older elementary and even highschool, where you basically have
kids think about the questionsthey have about themselves and
about the world in stages andthen, in small groups, look for
common denominators among theirquestions and then bring
(22:25):
everyone in the classroomtogether to share their group's
common questions about self andworld, their group's common
questions about self and world,and figure out if there are
overlaps and then create aninterdisciplinary curriculum for
(23:04):
the whole year that'sfundamentally based on those
questions.
Now, if you've got certainareas you're forced to cover, I
would look after that to try tofind ways in which you start
with the kids and what they wantto know.
And if they're talking aboutwhat's happening in current
events, if they're talking aboutwildfires that are happening
(23:33):
and they're scared about climatechange, that can become not
only a science curriculum but asocial studies curriculum, a
literature curriculum, amathematics curriculum that can
take you for months with kidswho are actively engaged, you
know.
Then you look at the curriculumyou were handed and where
you've got to cover this and youfigure out some way to say, oh
(23:57):
yeah, we covered that too.
But you don't start with thetop-down stuff.
You start with the student'sinterests and then, when there's
questions about how much longerwe should spend on this
question or which book we shouldread, whether we should do this
in our small groups or as awhole class, how we can assess
(24:22):
this at the end of the week tomake sure that people don't have
questions or gaps in theirunderstanding, all of those
decisions about how to proceedwith it are made with the kids
in class meetings.
All of that can be done evenbefore we make the structural
(24:43):
changes that would make suchteaching easier, but it's still
to a large extent, possible,even in the status quo.
Large extent possible even inthe status quo and beyond that.
You know I draw from a hugerange of experts, of teachers
and researchers, and I offercitations in all my books, so
(25:05):
that if you're primarily focusedon how am I going to help
little kids learn arithmetic,well, now you turn to the
writings of Constance Camus, whois without peer and helping to
help make sure that kidsconstruct meaning around
(25:26):
mathematical ideas when they'resix years old, instead of merely
memorizing the approvedtechnique for borrowing from the
10th place.
If you're interested in ways ofteaching history in high school,
I can point you to experts whohave focused on what it means to
help kids not just memorizedates and events one after
(25:52):
another and spit them back, butlearn how to think like
historians.
And so it goes for eachdiscipline, for combining
disciplines and for each age.
So it's about it starts withthe teacher's commitment that
says learning is something youdo with kids, not just create
(26:13):
for them or make them do.
And it starts with anunderstanding that learning is
about being able to understandideas from the inside out, not
merely memorizing facts orpracticing skills in isolation.
Chris Colley (26:31):
Fascinating.
Those are some amazingsuggestions and I think
listeners could startimplementing those small things
pretty easily and I can see ashift that could come about
pretty quickly.
Once you get the kidsinterested and motivated and
listening to their interests, Ithink you get that engagement
which would propel the learningforward, which is just love it.
Alfie Kohn (26:57):
It's much more exciting for the teacher, but
it's also unsettling forteachers who are used to being
the kings or queens of theirclassroom.
So, you have to be willing togive up some control, you have
to be willing to make sure thata classroom is more like a jazz
improvisation than like a soloperformance.
(27:17):
But the other thing, the lastthing maybe, to finish up on
here, is that it's ideal if youdon't have to try to do this all
by yourself, if you can findother teachers to do it with, to
learn from and to build and tochallenge authorities to
remember to do that long-termchange, to facilitate this kind
(27:38):
of learning, rather than to haveto constantly be, you know,
rowing against the current.
You know change is easier tomake, morale is easier to build
when you're not all by yourself.
Chris Colley (27:57):
Absolutely so cool .
Well, I want to thank you.
This has been just a real treat.
Your words and your books,you've made us all smarter today
, Alfie, so thank you for that,oh.
Alfie Kohn (28:09):
I appreciate your interest.
Chris Colley (28:11):
Oh, it's so fascinating.
I wish we had much more time,but maybe you'll come and join
me again down the road for acontinuation.
Alfie Kohn (28:20):
Okay, thanks very much and invite folks who want
to know more about this to havea look at the resources on my
website, which is just my namealphicone K-O-H-N dot org.
Chris Colley (28:33):
Perfect, We'll do.
I'll put it in the descriptorof the cast so that people have
access to it easily.
And thanks again.
This has been really wonderfuland I wish you a great day.
Alfie Kohn (28:43):
Thank you, same to you, bye, thank you.
Here we are, another episode Shift Ed podcast
coming to you out of shiverycold Montreal, and I have a
wonderful guest today.
We were having some connectionproblems but we figured those
out and I have Alfie Cohen here,author, lecturer.
Amazing research he does aroundeducation and looking at our
(00:39):
system and looking for betterways and looking for better ways
.
A very big student of JohnDewey and Jean Piaget and I
think a lot of their mindsetshave informed Alfie's mindset as
well.
So, alfie, thanks so much forhopping on here and sharing some
thoughts with us today.
Alfie Kohn (00:59):
My pleasure.
Chris Colley (01:02):
So I usually like to get started with kind of a
rewind into your past.
What was your schooling like?
Alfie Kohn (01:11):
where you were growing up Like.
Chris Colley (01:12):
What are your recollections of school as a
student, as a kid in school?
Alfie Kohn (01:18):
It was fairly unexceptional.
I went to public school in theUS, nothing very exciting.
Only later did I begin toreflect on the things that, as a
child, you take for granted and, unfortunately, many adults
take for granted as well All thethings about schooling you just
(01:40):
think are part of life.
That kids are going to begraded and tested, lectured to
have nothing to say about thecurriculum, going to be punished
and rewarded for obedience,going to be memorizing facts
rather than doing meaningfulthinking, going to be grouped by
(02:05):
ability or by age, etc.
All of those things that youknow.
We just think that's the way itis.
And gradually I came to realizeit's not the way it has to be
and got going on looking atpilot projects and extraordinary
teachers in schools and whatthe research suggests and so on.
(02:25):
So I'm happy to talk about anyof the ideas, but I don't think
my own autobiography sheds muchlight on those ideas or is
necessarily relevant tolisteners who've had different
experiences.
Chris Colley (02:40):
Right, but I mean it sounds very much like the
industrial model that we've hadin education for you know, for a
while now.
Yep, that's right, the tippingpoint as you were coming into
(03:02):
your career writing books andobserving education, what were
some of the really meaningful orpowerful moments where your
mindset kind of shifted a littlebit or started to open up to
other ideas about how educationcould be?
Alfie Kohn (03:20):
I wrote my first book some time ago about the
destructive effects ofcompetition in all areas of life
, not only at school but also athome, at work and at play, and
started thinking about andlearning about cooperative
learning as an alternative in aschool setting, realizing that
(03:41):
students don't have to beseparated from each other and
told that helping is the same ascheating or worse, set against
each other in a contest so thatmy success comes only at the
price of your failure.
And then I wrote another bookabout altruism and empathy and
once again started to thinkabout the educational
(04:02):
implications.
Once again started to thinkabout the educational
implications how can we useschools to help kids become more
caring and generous people andfound great examples of programs
that were doing that, as wellas relevant research, and went
on to think about thedestructive effects of not only
(04:23):
competition but any kind ofreward that says do this and
you'll get that.
And once again, I'm interestedin how these ideas play out in
different arenas in our society.
But found myself drawnincreasingly to thinking about
schooling in particular, and bythen I'd had some experience as
(04:44):
a teacher too.
But only after that did I pullfrom these other bases of
research and theory, to thinkabout how schooling can be more
student-centered, moremeaningful and so on, and found
that the research in factsuggests that what's sometimes
(05:06):
called progressive oralternative or constructivist
ways of teaching and learningaren't just a lot more pleasant,
but are a hell of a lot moreeffective, particularly at more
meaningful goals particularly atmore meaningful goals.
(05:27):
And so I started writing booksabout education in particular
and inviting teachers andparents and others to reflect
not only on methods but on ourobjectives.
What are we looking for here?
And the more ambitious youreducational objective, the worse
the status quo fares.
In other words, if all you careabout is having kids sit
(05:52):
quietly and cram someforgettable facts into
short-term memory, then you knowmaybe we're not doing so bad.
But if we want kids to becritical thinkers and lifelong
learners and decent, caring,compassionate human beings, then
the status quo is an abysmalfailure.
(06:13):
And so that's why I alwaysbegin my lectures and workshops
for teachers and also forparents, by asking the question
what are your long-term goalsfor kids?
And I get the same kind ofanswers wherever I go.
And then what I do for a living, basically, is to say you say
(06:34):
you want this, so why are youdoing that?
Because here's the researchshowing that that doesn't get
you this.
Chris Colley (06:44):
Interesting that that doesn't get you this
Interesting.
Yeah, I mean I love to.
I read your Punished by Rewardsand I just felt that that it
opened so many thoughts anddifferent perspectives to look
at and it kind of was informedalso from your other book, the
Brighter Side of the HumanNature.
Humans are not naturallyselfish.
(07:06):
Do you think that that haschanged over time?
Like you wrote this book in1990, right, the Brighter Side
of Human Nature, that's right.
Has there been shifts in humannature over since you've written
that book?
Like I mean, that was you knowwe're getting on 30 plus years.
Does society change quickly?
(07:28):
Like, have you noticed anydifference about that idea that
humans are selfish?
Alfie Kohn (07:35):
Well, the human nature itself isn't going to
shift in 30 years or even in 300years.
The question is, how do ourideas about human nature shift?
And it's certainly fair to ask,you know, whether I'm as
optimistic as I was 30 years ago, or how our culture may or may
(08:00):
not have shifted in its viewsregarding human nature.
But I mean, we're at a prettydark period politically right
now and it takes an effort ofwill to remind ourselves that we
have the capacity to do better.
You know, right now it'sbeginning to look not only for
(08:22):
what's going on in the US and,to a lesser but still
significant extent, in Canadaand in many other countries.
It's beginning to look as ifthe idea of democracy was a
short-lived experiment in humanhistory, was a short-lived
experiment in human history.
But I continue to believe thathumans have the capacity to be
(08:47):
aggressive or peaceful, to becompetitive or cooperative, to
be selfish or to be pro-social,and we have the capacity to move
in a different direction.
It doesn't mean it's easy,because there are strong,
embedded structural impedimentsto to doing things that are that
(09:11):
are better, but education is asgood as any other entry point
for trying to help people changetheir beliefs and the practices
that flow from the beliefs.
You know, if our schools areset up to create, fundamentally,
(09:32):
obedience, if the primary goalin a classroom that you visit
appears to be to get the kids todo whatever they're told and
follow rules they had no part inhelping to create, then that's
a message kids take with them ascitizens they are.
(09:55):
That's why, you know, youmentioned Dewey before.
He was interested in democracyas something far wider and
richer than just, you know,voting every couple of years.
What does it mean to be part ofan autonomous community where
(10:17):
people have something to sayabout what happens to them every
day at work or at school?
And so what a great opportunityto redesign schools so that
kids have an active role indeciding how they're going to
(10:38):
learn and what they're going tolearn, and so on.
You know kids learn to makegood decisions by making
decisions, not by followingdirections.
So, then, the challenge foreducators is how do we create
schools with kids, not just forthem, to help them become
(10:58):
thoughtful decision makers?
Chris Colley (11:02):
And have you seen, like I mean through your
research and exploration ofeducation have you seen schools
that, or examples where thathappens, where the school is
created with students and theiropinions are cherished and where
it's more of a give and takebetween student and teacher?
Alfie Kohn (11:25):
Oh, yes, I write about those examples in my books
and articles and blog posts.
In one book I wrote the SchoolsOur Children Deserve the Schools
Our Children Deserve.
It's filled not only withresearch but also with samples
of interdisciplinary,project-based, student-designed
(11:48):
learning at all different agelevels.
And I did another book just forteachers, called Beyond
Discipline, where I look at thenon-academic aspects of
schooling, the social, moral,behavioral issues, and I drew
from amazing teachers I watchedall over the place, not only
(12:10):
from research, to talk aboutwhat it means to create a caring
, democratic community in placeof traditional classroom
management and discipline, aplace where kids are being
helped to be good people, notjust good learners, and it's
done by having an environmentthat's about working with kids
(12:31):
instead of doing things to them.
So, yes, if this is not stuffyou know that I think up just
sitting at my desk in a vacuumor extrapolate from.
You know, reading theoreticalworks.
The best research on this iscorroborated by the best
(12:52):
practice that really is outthere but remains a minority
report, so to speak remains aminority report, so to speak.
Chris Colley (13:03):
Great, great, and I agree with you.
I mean, it seems too thathaving that more
student-centered, progressivelook on education gets
sidestepped because of all thesestructures that we have in
place and also a feeling thateducators feel kind of
constrained with, you know,large classrooms and they have
to teach the test, and you knowfunding for education we'll say
(13:24):
in Canada, is limited as well.
Right, so it's a struggle forteachers.
With that in mind, how do yousupport teacher growth?
But within those constraints,like, how do they, how can they
move beyond thinking about, well, I have to teach you to test
and I have, like all these, youknow, structural gears that we
(13:47):
have within the educationalsystem, how can teachers start
to move beyond that where it'snot an excuse to say, well, I
can't look at progressive orstudent-centered because I have
all of these requirements?
How does that conversationstart, alfie?
Alfie Kohn (14:07):
It starts by distinguishing between
short-term and long-term kindsof change, and I think we have
to engage in both simultaneously.
Simultaneously.
The short-term question is,given the constraints that
you've mentioned of having atop-down standardized curriculum
and often with exams thatstudents have to write and be
(14:29):
prepared for, how can I minimizethe damage of that in my own
classroom?
How can I?
Nothing about that structureprevents me from doing more
asking than telling, and even inthe worst class school systems
(14:51):
I have found teachers who givekids an enormous amount of
discretion to really thoughtfullessons, while managing to also
prepare them for the damn test.
They realize that they don'thave to do punishments and
rewards.
They don't have to assignhomework so that kids work a
second shift after they get homefrom a full day in school,
(15:13):
which has no benefits,especially below high school,
according to the best research.
They can do authenticassessment to see how things are
going and never give a test and, above all, never use a mark,
never put a letter or number onanything a child has done, which
research shows has threeeffects when you grade children.
(15:37):
First, it makes kids a lot lessexcited about learning.
Second, it makes them kidsprefer the easiest possible task
, not because they're lazy, butbecause they're rational.
You know, duh?
Of course I'm not going to wantto challenge myself.
If the goal in here is to getan A or a 100 or whatever, that
(15:58):
I'm going to do the easiestthing because it's not a
learning classroom, it's agrade-oriented classroom.
And the third effect is thatkids tend to think in a
shallower, more superficial waycompared to students learning
the identical material with nogrades at all.
So all of those thingsungrading classrooms, getting
rid of the many traditionalfeatures can be done to a
(16:22):
meaningful extent even in thesame bad system we're in.
In the short term you minimizethe damage but at the same time
just have to put up with theseare political decisions and
(16:47):
they're bad ones.
And just as we organize andmobilize to make other kinds of
social change, so we have toorganize and mobilize to
challenge these things.
So we have to organize andmobilize to challenge these
things.
(17:30):
And I offer examples in my booksof people who have boycotted
the tests, refused to take them.
If they're know, a member ofParliament who knows less about
learning than we do has imposedon us professional development
in both the US and Canada.
And there's two things I'venoticed.
I've spoken in all tenprovinces in Canada as well as
one territory, and I'll give youtwo examples of two
(17:52):
generalizations.
The first is that in mostCanadian provinces the teachers,
through their unions, decide onwho to bring in for
professional developmentworkshops, so the teachers
themselves can make the decisionof how we want to learn better,
to be better at our craft.
That's very unusual in the USwhere usually it's
(18:15):
administrators who decide whatthe teachers have to sit through
.
That's a point in Canada'sfavor.
But the second generalization isthat even in Canadian provinces
and districts where teachersare very unhappy about the
testing that the students haveto do and that the teachers have
(18:37):
to teach to, there is verylittle critical reaction to,
very little critical thoughtabout and pushback on how
standardized and regimented thecurriculums are.
This is true even in theprovinces where there's very
little in the way ofstandardized testing, especially
(19:01):
for the youngest kids inSaskatchewan and Manitoba, at
least for a while.
But the idea that here comes acurriculum so that if you're
teaching grade four you knowyou're going to be doing rocks
and minerals this year,regardless of whether the kids
have any interest in it orbackground in it or whatever,
(19:23):
and you cannot have astudent-centered classroom if
you have a standardizedcurriculum that you're required
to teach.
The teacher has very littlemeaningful autonomy as a
professional educator if everygrade four classroom in the
province has to be learning thesame damn thing regardless.
(19:46):
So in other words, it doesn'tmatter who your kids are this
year and how they may differfrom the kids you had last year,
you have to be teaching thesame damn thing.
And the amazing thing aboutthat is it's not only a fatal
obstacle to the best kind ofteaching.
The most amazing thing to me isthat Canadian teachers don't
even seem to realize with somehappy exceptions how awful this
(20:13):
is and how they ought to bedoing everything possible to
change this standardization.
Chris Colley (20:22):
Yeah, I totally agree.
I've been doing work with somepre-service teachers as well and
I'm amazed how they teach theway they were taught right, and
I mean, I guess that's how thecycle just keeps going.
Is that when you're becoming ateacher, you go to your closest
reference of teaching, which istypically the traditional stand
and deliver where kids are quiet, and you are the deliverer of
(20:46):
knowledge, I guess, or content.
I should say I love that idea.
What would you give as advicefor teachers where they're
listening to this and they'resaying yes, yes, yes, and then
they're faced with.
You know again the curriculum.
What are some small littlesteps that they could tweak to
(21:10):
open the doors up a little bitmore on student voice and
student centered learning?
You know more.
You know having kids solveproblems within the class,
develop skills which we tend tooverlook as well.
You know all the soft skillsthat kids are going to
desperately need in the futureare.
Where does the journey kind ofstart, alfie, if you could offer
(21:31):
a few little tidbits from yourexperience where teachers tend
to get started to start making alittle bit more of a shift
towards giving back the learningto the kids.
Alfie Kohn (21:44):
I would start with the kids' questions about
themselves and the world.
In fact, there's an approachcalled curriculum integration,
(22:05):
created by an American educatornamed James Bean, b-e-a-n-e into
older elementary and even highschool, where you basically have
kids think about the questionsthey have about themselves and
about the world in stages andthen, in small groups, look for
common denominators among theirquestions and then bring
(22:25):
everyone in the classroomtogether to share their group's
common questions about self andworld, their group's common
questions about self and world,and figure out if there are
overlaps and then create aninterdisciplinary curriculum for
(23:04):
the whole year that'sfundamentally based on those
questions.
Now, if you've got certainareas you're forced to cover, I
would look after that to try tofind ways in which you start
with the kids and what they wantto know.
And if they're talking aboutwhat's happening in current
events, if they're talking aboutwildfires that are happening
(23:33):
and they're scared about climatechange, that can become not
only a science curriculum but asocial studies curriculum, a
literature curriculum, amathematics curriculum that can
take you for months with kidswho are actively engaged, you
know.
Then you look at the curriculumyou were handed and where
you've got to cover this and youfigure out some way to say, oh
(23:57):
yeah, we covered that too.
But you don't start with thetop-down stuff.
You start with the student'sinterests and then, when there's
questions about how much longerwe should spend on this
question or which book we shouldread, whether we should do this
in our small groups or as awhole class, how we can assess
(24:22):
this at the end of the week tomake sure that people don't have
questions or gaps in theirunderstanding, all of those
decisions about how to proceedwith it are made with the kids
in class meetings.
All of that can be done evenbefore we make the structural
(24:43):
changes that would make suchteaching easier, but it's still
to a large extent, possible,even in the status quo.
Large extent possible even inthe status quo and beyond that.
You know I draw from a hugerange of experts, of teachers
and researchers, and I offercitations in all my books, so
(25:05):
that if you're primarily focusedon how am I going to help
little kids learn arithmetic,well, now you turn to the
writings of Constance Camus, whois without peer and helping to
help make sure that kidsconstruct meaning around
(25:26):
mathematical ideas when they'resix years old, instead of merely
memorizing the approvedtechnique for borrowing from the
10th place.
If you're interested in ways ofteaching history in high school,
I can point you to experts whohave focused on what it means to
help kids not just memorizedates and events one after
(25:52):
another and spit them back, butlearn how to think like
historians.
And so it goes for eachdiscipline, for combining
disciplines and for each age.
So it's about it starts withthe teacher's commitment that
says learning is something youdo with kids, not just create
(26:13):
for them or make them do.
And it starts with anunderstanding that learning is
about being able to understandideas from the inside out, not
merely memorizing facts orpracticing skills in isolation.
Chris Colley (26:31):
Fascinating.
Those are some amazingsuggestions and I think
listeners could startimplementing those small things
pretty easily and I can see ashift that could come about
pretty quickly.
Once you get the kidsinterested and motivated and
listening to their interests, Ithink you get that engagement
which would propel the learningforward, which is just love it.
Alfie Kohn (26:57):
It's much more exciting for the teacher, but
it's also unsettling forteachers who are used to being
the kings or queens of theirclassroom.
So, you have to be willing togive up some control, you have
to be willing to make sure thata classroom is more like a jazz
improvisation than like a soloperformance.
(27:17):
But the other thing, the lastthing maybe, to finish up on
here, is that it's ideal if youdon't have to try to do this all
by yourself, if you can findother teachers to do it with, to
learn from and to build and tochallenge authorities to
remember to do that long-termchange, to facilitate this kind
(27:38):
of learning, rather than to haveto constantly be, you know,
rowing against the current.
You know change is easier tomake, morale is easier to build
when you're not all by yourself.
Chris Colley (27:57):
Absolutely so cool .
Well, I want to thank you.
This has been just a real treat.
Your words and your books,you've made us all smarter today
, Alfie, so thank you for that,oh.
Alfie Kohn (28:09):
I appreciate your interest.
Chris Colley (28:11):
Oh, it's so fascinating.
I wish we had much more time,but maybe you'll come and join
me again down the road for acontinuation.
Alfie Kohn (28:20):
Okay, thanks very much and invite folks who want
to know more about this to havea look at the resources on my
website, which is just my namealphicone K-O-H-N dot org.
Chris Colley (28:33):
Perfect, We'll do.
I'll put it in the descriptorof the cast so that people have
access to it easily.
And thanks again.
This has been really wonderfuland I wish you a great day.
Alfie Kohn (28:43):
Thank you, same to you, bye, thank you.
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