Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
here we are, another episode of shifted podcast.
Uh, coming to you from cold,frigid quebec, um, and we're
reaching down to cold, frigididNew York Nothing on us today.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Oh my God, it's so cold.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
I have to wear this long turtleneck.
Lenore Skenazy is coming in.
Writer, blogger, advocate forchildren free play and
co-founder of Let Grow, anorganization that came out in
2018.
Let Grow, an organization thatcame out in 2018, helping us
(00:52):
realize we got to let these kidsplay and be free, and we're
really going to focus on thattoday in our cast and Lenore.
Thanks again so much forhopping on here and joining for
a chat.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Well, thank you, Chris.
Thank you for not making mecome up there.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Yes, yes, we'll just hibernate for a while.
I don't mind.
I guess I want to start, lenore, like I'd like to ask people
that are that are advocates forfree play and young children
having experiences.
What were your earliestrecollections of play when you
(01:23):
were growing up?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Oh my God, they were so boring that your audience is
going to leave you.
I played outside, I looked forfour-leaf clovers, I played
Barbie.
Sometimes I, you know, wentwalking, sometimes in the woods,
but a lot of times just toschool.
And then a lot of my free timewas just in my room drawing and
writing and reading.
So blah, just plain oldchildhood by a kind of dull kid.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Right Now in some of the stuff that I was reading,
those times seem to be, you know, vestiges of a past almost
where that it's decreased a lot.
I I wrote the number down butit's like five to eight times
like lower now of kids going outand enjoying the outdoors, and
(02:11):
we think of outdoors as thatkind of free play where it's
unstructured and kids kind offigure out what they want to do
in the games they play, in thenegotiation, all those wonderful
skills they develop.
What is your biggest impressionof?
What has decreased this joy ofjust going outside and just
letting kids be and develop theway that they're supposed to?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Well, I did write a whole book on this, but I would
say that the big drivers arefirst of all, I think there was
a major shift in the 80s, whichwas long after I was a kid.
The 80s saw the growth of cabletelevision, 24-hour news cycle.
What are you going to fill itwith?
You look around for moredisasters and just keep
(02:55):
hammering them home.
I don't know if they did thisin Canada, but in America in the
80s we also got these kids'pictures on the milk cartons.
Did you have this?
It was missing kids' picturesand there was never an asterisk
explaining.
I was taken in a custodialdispute between my divorced
parents, which is generally thecase, or I ran away from home.
My mom remarried a stepdad.
(03:17):
I hated him, whatever.
It was so rarely actual,stranger danger.
And yet that's when that phrasebecame popular.
And there was a mini seriesabout one kid who was abducted
and it broke all ratings records.
And so the TV executives saidget me more of these.
And I don't think theexecutives actually went out and
kidnapped kids, but they didget more of these specials.
(03:39):
And the television news changedto action news or eyewitness
news, which is all about justsending a reporter out with a
microphone to where there's someblood on the ground, and so it
just felt like we were living into use a phrase that's popular
today carnage, and so it feltvery scary.
(04:04):
Have a.
You know we have smallerfamilies and I don't think
smaller families mean you loveyour children more because
there's only two of them insteadof dividing your life, you know
your love between six or eightor 10 of them.
But it does mean that you havemore time per kid and more money
per kid and as the marketplaceadjusts to that fact income
quote unquote must-haves thatnobody must have.
There were products like babyknee pads and there's baby
(04:26):
helmets to wear when your kid istoddling, and there's all sorts
of classes, and the mostegregious is, of course, in New
Jersey.
We make fun of New Jersey.
You must make fun of I don'tknow Newfoundland or something,
but we make fun of New Jerseyall the time and there are
classes there on, like how youknow, for four month olds, you
know how to get them to payattention to sounds and smells
(04:47):
and movement, and it's like howabout you leave them on the
planet Earth and see whathappens?
Speaker 1 (04:53):
That generally is going to unfold.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
You know crawling and how to get your kids engaged.
And listening to music.
It's like if music is playing,I don't care if you like it or
hate it, you're listening to it.
So it was just.
It's this strange sort ofeviscerating of the idea that
anything would happenautomatically and for the best
and a replacement with the ideathat nothing happens unless you
are making it happen.
(05:16):
And if you leave the kids alonethey will fester in stupidity
and danger.
So you better hop in right nowand do something, buy something,
enroll in something, makesomething, read something, blah,
blah, blah.
So I think all those thingstogether.
And then, obviously, recently,there's technology, but I feel
like enough of the world isworrying about the impact of
(05:38):
kids being on social media.
I kind of concern myself withthe impact of kids, knowing that
they are growing up, tracked inevery way and you know you
can't just wander around thewoods.
Oh, why is she at the pond?
Is she drowning?
I better find out.
Let me just text her.
I'm sure this won't change theexperience at all.
Are you OK or are you drowning,drowning, ha ha?
No, really, mom, I'm OK.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Really, yes, really.
Okay, don't forget to smell theflowers, mom.
I'm smelling the flowers.
Oh, how do they smell?
Did you know flower begins withf?
Let's come home and we'll lookup flowers.
So it's that, right, yeah, yeah.
And where are thesemisconceptions?
Like were they?
I mean, it seems like theevidence doesn't point to all of
this.
Right like abductions, like,like you mentioned, is typically
(06:22):
people they might have, mightknow, or within the it's not
like stranger danger.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
A lot, exactly like the stats don't put up the
evidence and your stats are.
Don't even measure like you'rein canada.
Like you know, our our bestdays are your worst days, so
there's just like there's noreason to be afraid of the least
likely thing happening.
Otherwise you would have towear I I don't know a helmet
every day, in case a meteor fellon you, you know, or bring a
(06:49):
raft with you in case there's aflood.
I mean, you can't always thinkthat way and yet, when it comes
to abduction, we've beenencouraged to always imagine the
worst.
And the weird thing aboutimagination is, first of all, I
don't have one.
There's people who can't seethings in their mind.
I think that's why I'm so muchmore rational.
But the other thing aboutimagination is if you can
picture something and you see itin your mind's eye, it's as if
(07:13):
it happened.
I mean, your mind files thataway under drowning or abduction
, even if you watched it on aLaw and Order episode, but
certainly even if you justimagined how sad you'd feel if
your kid was taken from theirfront lawn.
And then it's it's in the pileof.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
these are terrible things that happened, or almost
happened or could happen andit's all the same pile.
Well, yeah, it's, it's, it'squite, uh, it's quite shocking
because in the end, like I'vedone a lot of research and work
with preschool teachers and alot of the research says you
have to give them free play.
They have to have time to growand explore themselves and
problem solve together, likethese skills that are going to
(07:54):
be super important.
Yet we focus on the content ofyou know the cognitive all the
time, know the cognitive all thetime and I kind of wanted to
ask you a little bit about those, that division between the life
skills that we need to givethem versus this idea that they
all have to go to higher ed.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
You know, you know I was yeah, so I was just having
this kind of conversation withum a group of teachers, like by
online up in massachusetts, Iguess down for you in
Massachusetts and an AP historyteacher, you know, raised his
hand oh, perfect.
And said well, you know, you saythat there's these life skills
(08:34):
that are important, but schoolsjudge you on.
You know how many APs you passand your grade point average.
And then I told the story andI'm going to tell it again
because I think it got mesomeplace.
I don't usually chew on andit's nice to have something new
to chew on, which is that Iinterview for Yale.
Yale has a million alumni.
We interview kids because somany kids apply, and on Sunday I
(08:57):
interviewed a girl who startedout by telling me that she can't
stand her math class and she'snot doing too well in chemistry
Okay, but then she tells me thatshe can't stand her math class
and she's not doing too well inchemistry okay, but then she
tells me that she lovesthrifting.
So do I actually wearing thrift?
You can't tell, because, um,not visual, but I'm wearing a
lot of thrift and she loves itso much that she started a
thrift shop at her high schooland at first it was impossible
(09:17):
to get kids to bring stuff in,but then, excuse me, the teacher
started doing it and the kidsdid it, and then they sold it
and they raised $500.
And she decided to give thatmoney to a nonprofit that
recycles the sort of samplesthat designers here in New York
make.
And then she made a littledocumentary about that because
she loved it so much.
(09:38):
And then in the meantime shewanted to read more.
So she started a reading cluband because she's at sort of a
mediocre high school, she'dnever been exposed to even
Nabokov or Lolita.
So they're reading Lolita.
And she said that's such aweird book but it's so
interesting, and so, and thenshe was doing one other thing on
her, when she was running theyearbook.
And then she likes rocks, and Ialways liked rocks as a kid.
(10:01):
Anyways, and running theyearbook she started to realize
that it's hard to get people todo things on deadline.
So she's, she's making thingsinto smaller chunks so that they
meet these little milestonesalong the way.
And I thought this is a genius.
Okay, she's doing bad in math,doing bad in science, but she
has figured out, she's iterating.
Okay, I can't just tell peoplethis is due on January 15, and
(10:21):
expect it to be done.
So I will make it smallerchunks and I will press pause to
make sure that we're all caughtup, and I will find people to
read books with me, and we'lltry to find books that people
say are important, and thenwe'll read them and we'll talk
about them, even without ateacher.
And I love thrift.
What else can I do with thrift?
Let me actually start a thriftshop.
Who starts a thrift shop?
So to me that was superintelligence.
(10:42):
I mean intelligence in othercultures that aren't as college
obsessed as we are.
Consider, the mark of anintelligent person is coming
into a situation, looking around, seeing what has to be done and
then figuring out how to do itand then doing it.
And so I said like, look, I,you know, I don't know if Yale's
going to take her, but I gaveher, you know, you know, two
thumbs up and this girl would befantastic.
(11:03):
And then the sort of peeved APhistory teacher said, excuse me,
one second, mm-hmm, god knowswhat's going on here.
So the peeved AP history teachersaid, well, that's all fine for
Yale, they can pick and choosewho they want, and but what
(11:24):
about everybody else?
And basically what he wassaying is like what about the
unintelligent kids who only haveAP classes to their credit?
And so he was sort of tacitlyadmitting that this was a super
intelligent kid.
So he was sort of tacitlyadmitting that this was a super
intelligent kid and Yale gets totake the most intelligent kids
and not rely on these sort ofmarkers that only tell parents
(11:45):
and schools and guidancecounselors that a kid has
memorized a lot of AP history.
We are recognizing thatintelligence is something that
is only tiny, partially measuredby grades and test scores, and
in reality is measured by whatyou do in the world, what you
(12:08):
make happen and what you figureout from that and how curious
you are and how you follow up onyour curiosity.
Well, isn't that kind of damningof the school system and the
college admissions process?
And the answer is yes, but youstill want your kid to get into
college.
So give them a lot of free timewhen they're younger and then
maybe just crack the whip whenthey're in high school.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, we're even seeing that.
Earlier, like I was talking tosome pre-service teachers and
the pressure they feel of gradeone, of getting the kids ready,
you know in quotes, for you know, and even kids like.
Talking to kids in grade oneand two, I'm like so do you guys
play at all in class?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
And they're like no, there's extra time, or you know,
play a class, but do they playoutside of class?
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Well, they have, they have you.
You know recess and lunchtimeand stuff, but the idea that in
preschool we it's, it'splay-based, right, like they
should be playing lots and lotsand that's how they develop and
learn and they're saying even upuntil great, till eight years
old.
That should be.
Your main focus is play, play.
And yet we have this liketotally shut off the valve of
(13:18):
play once they get in, to startpreparing them for this.
They get into the sausagemachine and it's just like it
doesn't stop.
So kind of thinking of that.
With that in mind.
What's the crux behind?
Let Grow Like what?
Where did that idea start todevelop?
(13:39):
And you have such wonderfulpartners that have?
All come together right toadvocate for this.
So can you explain a little bitabout Let Grow?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, I will.
And then we'll get back to likewhat happens when kids need
more play than they're getting.
So a million years ago, when myyounger son was nine, he'd
wanted me and my husband to takehim someplace he'd never been
before and let him find his ownway home by the subway.
I did that.
I wrote a column a newspapercolumn about it, and two days
later I was on every possibletelevision show I don't know if
(14:10):
you know them so I won't mentionthem, but like all the big
morning shows and news showsdefending myself.
And so the weekend after allthis broke, I started a blog and
I called it Free Range Kids,and my whole premise is that our
kids are smarter and safer thanour culture gives them credit
for.
And so that was all I did.
I wrote the book Free RangeKids, I ran the blog Free Range
(14:31):
Kids.
I went around the country I'veactually been in every province
in Canada giving talks on howdid we get so afraid for our
kids?
And there's a lot of reasons,but the Let Grow happened
because in 2018, daniel Shuckman, who was the chairman of FIRE,
which fights for free speech oncampus, was talking to Jonathan
Haidt, famous most recently forthe book the Anxious Generation,
(14:55):
but he hadn't written it thenand the two of them were talking
about what they were seeing oncampus, because John is a
professor and what they wereseeing is kids who seemed more
fragile than earlier generations, more seeking an adult's help
when something minor happened,like an argument with a roommate
(15:16):
or a mouse in the dorm, andalso mistaking, feeling like
when they felt uncomfortable,they thought they were unsafe,
which is why we started seeingthe rise of safe rooms, safe
spaces, and trigger warningswhen you know when there was a
book they disagreed with or aspeaker they found controversial
, instead of just going in andlistening politely and then
(15:37):
raising your hand and givingyour considered objections and
engaging with an idea that youeither weren't familiar with or
didn't agree with.
And the two of them realizedthat trying to make kids more
open-minded and robust andresilient at age 18, 19, 20 is a
late stage intervention, right?
Why don't we start by raisingkids who are more open, curious
(16:01):
and resourceful, I guess, iswhat you'd say.
So John had read Free RangeKids and had met me and was
raising his kids free range, andhe said well, let's talk to
Lenore, let's start a nonprofitwith her.
And when they came to me I saidtwo things.
One is let's bring in PeterGray as well, because Peter Gray
, you and your listenersprobably know, is a professor of
(16:24):
psychology at Boston Collegewho has spent his life studying
the importance of all agestogether, mixed aged kids, just
playing without anybodyorganizing them.
So we brought in Peter Gray andI said then the other caveat is
that I've been a thought leadernow for like a dozen years and I
can tell you where thoughts go.
They go back to the worst casescenario.
So being a thought leader isn'tgetting me anywhere.
(16:46):
You know, people listen, theynod, they agree.
Oh, yes, I love my childhood.
Oh, I learned so much from freeplay.
I climbed a tree once.
I didn't know how to get down.
We stayed out till thestreetlights came on.
My dad had a bell blah, blah,blah.
Okay, great, but then theywould go home and they couldn't
change because there was no pushand nobody else was doing it.
And so I said we have to come upwith a way to change people's
(17:07):
actions, particularly parents,because the only thing that I've
seen that changes anything whenit comes to a parent is their
kid.
If they are pushed to let go oftheir kid and their kid goes to
the store or makes the snowmanor, you know, organizes a game
of hockey on their own, and thenthey come in and they're you
(17:28):
know, they're rosy-cheeked andthey're excited, or they got
lost or they fell, but it'sstill not the end of the world.
All that rewires the parent,not me saying your kid needs
independence, not me saying theend of the world.
All that rewires the parent,not me saying your kid needs
independence, not me saying thechances of a kid being kidnapped
are like one in a zillion,doesn't matter, but seeing your
own kid do something on theirown is the greatest pleasure any
parent ever has, and I can saythat because when my kids are in
(17:50):
their 20s, when they, you know,get a job, it's a thrill.
When they voluntarily take outthe garbage, which they didn't
do for their first 25 years,that's a thrill, right.
So really, the reward ofparenting is not telling your
kid please do that, and they dothat.
It's them doing something ontheir own, and one of the
reasons that parents are beingdriven so crazy these days is
(18:12):
it's we're with them all thetime, so we're always telling
them what to do, so we never getthe joy of seeing them do
anything on their own, and weget the misery of seeing them do
something badly or be mean ortake a mini risk or do something
, waste their time, and so themore closely we are bound to our
kids, where we see all thefaults and we don't get the
(18:32):
rewards, so Let Grow's main.
We have two programs that werecommend for schools, and all
our materials are free, and oneof them is called the Let Grow
Experience, and this is, youknow, sort of inspired by.
John Haidt always says that acollective problem needs a
collective solution.
I'm afraid to send my kid tothe store.
(18:54):
You're afraid to send your kidto the store, I don't want my
kid on the street, there'snobody else there.
But if we're all doing it atthe same time, then it's
collective action and it breaksthrough.
So the thing the electoralexperience is simply a homework
assignment that teachers givethe students, and it's one page
and it says in more than onesentence, but it basically says
(19:16):
go home and do something new onyour own, with your parents'
permission, but without yourparents.
And then we have a list ofthings they can climb a tree,
they can, you know, makepancakes, they can visit grandma
, whatever it is, and obviouslyit all depends on your
neighborhood and the age of thekid and their interests, because
it should be something thatactually interests them, that
they feel like doing that forone reason or another they
(19:36):
haven't done yet.
And so once that happens, andagain the parent sees the kid
come home, you know, with themilk from the store, that
changes the parent.
But the reason the LECROexperience is so important is
because it puts the cart beforethe horse.
We're making you let go beforeyou're ready to let go, because
once you let go you'll be readythe next time and the next time
(19:56):
and the next one, because itkeeps getting easier.
And then it becomes normal andyou're not the only person doing
it.
So there's not the guilt andthere's not the fear, and it's
recommended by the school, somaybe there's something good
about it.
And then the kid writes a littlereflection.
Like you know, I went to thestore.
How was it?
It was hard but fun.
And then what are you going todo next time?
Next time I want to go get myown haircut or whatever, but I
(20:17):
really feel like we haven'tfigured this out yet, but we
should have.
We should have these littlereflections for the parent,
because the parent has torealize how far they've come
from.
No, they couldn't possibly doit.
There's a big street.
There's a scary dog.
Oh, she's only seven, eight,nine, 10, 11, 12, 13.
She's only 14 years old.
(20:38):
And then afterwards people arelike, well, that was easy.
Or why was I so scared?
Or look at my kid.
But it's never.
Oh, I'm never doing that again.
It's never that.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Right, right.
That's so cool and like whatwas the crux behind when you had
your, your son and you.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
You know that that first that kind of sparked
everything like he had asked.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
I want to go and and like how did you let go, how did
you overcome I don't know fearor like like what's gonna happen
or like what, what was yourprocess that you had to go
through to kind of let thathappen?
Speaker 2 (21:36):
no-transcript.
He needed to take a cab instead.
And back then the nine year oldis 26.
So back then there weretelephones on poles, strangely
enough, and so I gave him somequarters if he had to call us.
And I think I look back, I'vebeen a newspaper columnist for
(21:57):
so long I could find old columnsof mine saying my kids are four
and six years old.
They're boys, you know, when wego to the theater I let them go
into the men's room without mebecause I think they're going to
be okay.
And my kids are now seven andnine and I let them go
downstairs to the courtyard.
There's no cars.
We lived in like a fortress,you know.
Is that crazy to let them takethe elevator by themselves?
(22:18):
And so I think, I think it wasjust something that I believe in
.
Also, I'm a reporter, so all Ido or did was like wander around
the city, and sometimes I wouldjust take the subway, get off,
and I wouldn't let myself getback on until I'd found a story.
And so that just meant I wastalking to strangers all the
time in neighborhoods ofdifferent ethnicities, and it
(22:40):
was, you know, sometimes hard tofind a story, but it was always
interesting because it just hadan excuse to talk to everybody.
And when you realize like thatmost people are either nice or
boring, you know, but not evil,you get a.
I'd say I sort of had a verycorrectly calibrated sense of
reality and also I never watchedthe TV news.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
That helps me.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Yes, yes, because it's just full of anxiety ridden
news anyway, right, it's justthey, you know they.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
If it bleeds, it leads.
But like when I, after I let myson ride the subway and I was
on all these TV shows, there wasa question that a lot of the
interviewers would ask.
It's like, okay, it's great hecame home, he was happy, good
for you.
But what if he didn't come home?
And I'm like, why are wetalking about that?
I don't say you drove to thegrocery today, but what if you
were hit by a drunk driver?
(23:33):
I mean, but there was somethingabout this compulsion of the
media and I say now the cultureat large of thinking that the
normal and safe is the exceptionand the disaster is the rule.
And so let's talk about thedisaster.
And why are we talking aboutkidnapping, which is so rare,
when all I was talking about wasa subway ride on a Sunday in a
(23:56):
neighborhood that I chose?
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Right, right, right.
It's amazing the visceralreaction people had to this.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
I read some of the feedback and the comments the
first comment on my blog from2009 or 2010 was you're an
asshole.
It's like this is kind of great.
This will forever be there.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
People respond to that kind of you know it's like
children, oh my God, we mustprotect them.
And it's like thisoverbearingness almost, because
it's the opposite of how kidshave grown up since the dawn of
time, really right, Like it'sonly recently.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Parents have always wanted to protect their kids,
but one of the ways you protectthem is by allowing them to
develop some skills and somestreet smarts and some
relationship abilities so thatthey'll be okay.
And when you take all thoseaway and all you give them is
the backseat of the car and afive-point harness until they go
off to college, you'veprotected them from something
(25:03):
that they were protected fromanyhow, which was being
kidnapped, because whether theywere in the car or not in the
car, they weren't going to bekidnapped.
But in the meantime, you havenot protected them from the big
things.
Actually, the new big fears ofparents' day is that their child
will be anxious and depressed,and Peter Gray, who I work with,
did a big study that waspublished in the Journal of
Pediatrics that found that overthe decades, as children's
(25:24):
independence and free play havegone down not just since COVID,
not just since the iPhone,decades of this going down and
being replaced by supervised,structured activities their
anxiety and depression have beengoing up.
And I always want them tomeasure something else, which is
passivity, because when I'vebeen at school I can't remember
was I this dulled out at school?
(25:46):
Maybe I was.
I mean, maybe it's been so longI don't remember, but I see
these kids and it's like kids,you know.
Today we have a visitor, okay,okay, and let's talk about what
you've been doing.
What have you been doing?
I picked up my pencil.
What my pencil?
You picked up your pencil.
(26:07):
Wow, class.
Did you hear that?
He picked up his pencil?
Let's give him a high five.
It's.
There's something very umunreal about the this, the whole
kabuki of some of the schoolsthat I've been in, and I've been
in some schools which is theopposite, where kids are excited
(26:30):
and can't wait to tell youthings and are engaged, whether
it's in class or at recess.
But I've been in enough thatthe kids seem almost like their
body is there, but they'rehaving an out of body experience
and their other body is at hometaking a nap.
So I see that I see that.
You do see that.
(26:50):
How young do you see it?
Speaker 1 (26:52):
I see it like, I can see it in grade one, I see it in
grade two, three, I mean, asyou get into high school, you
see at least half have checkedout.
You know, or just like I don'tdo math, or you know, they just
are fearful of wrong answers.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
They're really afraid they're people talking.
I mean I would be in class Isay, like what?
I'd just be this obnoxious,like what lady?
And it's like I decided I wouldgo to a room.
You can't, you can't mutter.
They've been through theprocess where the teacher talks
and you listen.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Right and that dynamic must shift dramatically.
But all things in educationtake time.
It's not a very proactivecommunity at times, because they
do have these structures, theymust follow.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah, well, sometimes it's just the you know the
requirements of the district.
It's like you must spend thismuch time in seats and you must
have, you know, have proficiencyon X or Y.
But I think I think one of thethings too is that the less we
see kids doing on their own, theless we believe they can do.
And I'm sure that's true inschools too.
(28:15):
If the kids never speak up,maybe just give up on having
them speak.
And it's hard, I think, for ateacher or a parent or almost
any adult to recognize how muchkids learn when we're not
teaching them.
And really I don't have it.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
I think that would be a scary realization for
teachers to realize that myeffectiveness of like
transmission of stuff reallydoesn't help much.
You know, the soft skills, thepersonal development, the, the
things that are going to besuper important in their lives,
that they need, um, you know, Imean content comes and goes and
(28:55):
I can find it if I need to, andwe put so much onus on that
rather than this developingthese future generations that
are going to be, you know, inour positions down the road, and
so it's.
It does have this kind of um,generational effect to it as
well.
Um, and and you so right, Imean, it wasn't COVID where this
(29:16):
started happening.
This happened way before allthis stuff.
I love that point that you madethat we think, you know,
sometimes might have thismisconception that, oh, it's
just recently, but no, it's notrecently.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Although COVID did a huge number it sure, did it sure
did On kids and parents andschool, it really amplified it
all.
Yeah, it was like yeah, sointeresting.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Well, I just want to thank you for taking some time.
I really appreciate yourinsights.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
You're welcome, but I have to make one other plug.
So, let grow, does two things inschools or recommends two
things from schools, and theother is that the schools stay
open for mixed age.
No phone replay before or afterschool, so that you know if
kids go home they're going to goonto their screens or they're
going to go into someadult-organized activity, which
is fine, but it doesn't teachall those skills we've been
(30:04):
talking about, the negotiationand compromise and creativity.
So there's sort of no place inkids' lives where they're with
other kids of different ages andnot on a device.
You know where there's time andspace and other kids and it's a
device-free area.
So I think of it as a wildlifesanctuary.
(30:25):
So if you can keep your schoolopen for that and you have an
adult who's there but they'rejust like a you know a lifeguard
, they're not intervening,they're not organizing the games
Then you've provided them withthis very enriched environment
which happens to be time, space,other kids combined, without
phones.
So consider doing that andwe've seen amazing results.
(30:48):
We had a teacher who startedone and took, went and got all
the metrics from how manyprincipal's office visits
happened before the first yearof play club, second year, third
year.
He's been in five years of playclub now and they've gone down
over the years as they'vematriculated more kids into
(31:10):
playing and playing became abigger thing and now they're
open every day before school forfree play.
Kids love coming to school evenmore.
They're not late, there's lessschool refusal and the
discipline problems.
They're not completely gone,but they've come there.
They've plunged since givingkids back and I always think of
(31:30):
it as like it's like if you tookall the whole wheat out of
bread and then you were feedingkids this nice white, fluffy
loaf which is, you know, sort ofthe adult organized world, but
then you put the whole wheatback and then they stop drooping
because they're getting thenutrients that come from
organizing your own game.
Finding a new friend, meeting akid in a different grade, trying
(31:51):
something new, or just knowingyou're going to see your friends
and have time together thatisn't at a desk is really great.
So the Let Grow Play Club andthe Let Grow Experience are both
at letgroworg, both free, easy.
It's so easy it's kind ofembarrassing that we've turned
them into you know, quoteunquote curricula, because I
(32:12):
just explained them to you intwo seconds.
But there they are and there'sletters to send home to the
parents and there's, you know,for further reading, but really
it boils down to more free playand independence Perfect.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Well, I'll definitely share those links in the in the
bio and um on the blog poststhat I'll put up.
Um, just so insightful, um.
Thank you so much again.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
You'd hope I'd have some insights, talking about the
same thing for 16 years.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Like we said, nothing goes quickly in education, um,
but I think, like your resourcesare definitely something that
people should have in theirhands and have an awareness of,
so I will make that happen, uh,here in our province.
Um, I appreciate your time andI hope that we, uh we touch base
again.
Uh, lenore, this has been a lotof fun.
I've really enjoyed talkingwith you.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Ditto.
Your listeners can send mestories.
I live through stories ofsomething that a kid did or a
parent realized or a teacher saw.
So it's just Lenore L-E-N-O-R-Eat letgroworg.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
And she's amazing at responding to emails Sometimes,
except when I lose them, allright.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Chris Pleasure.
here we are, another episode of shifted podcast.
Uh, coming to you from cold,frigid quebec, um, and we're
reaching down to cold, frigididNew York Nothing on us today.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Oh my God, it's so cold.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
I have to wear this long turtleneck.
Lenore Skenazy is coming in.
Writer, blogger, advocate forchildren free play and
co-founder of Let Grow, anorganization that came out in
2018.
Let Grow, an organization thatcame out in 2018, helping us
(00:52):
realize we got to let these kidsplay and be free, and we're
really going to focus on thattoday in our cast and Lenore.
Thanks again so much forhopping on here and joining for
a chat.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Well, thank you, Chris.
Thank you for not making mecome up there.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Yes, yes, we'll just hibernate for a while.
I don't mind.
I guess I want to start, lenore, like I'd like to ask people
that are that are advocates forfree play and young children
having experiences.
What were your earliestrecollections of play when you
(01:23):
were growing up?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Oh my God, they were so boring that your audience is
going to leave you.
I played outside, I looked forfour-leaf clovers, I played
Barbie.
Sometimes I, you know, wentwalking, sometimes in the woods,
but a lot of times just toschool.
And then a lot of my free timewas just in my room drawing and
writing and reading.
So blah, just plain oldchildhood by a kind of dull kid.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Right Now in some of the stuff that I was reading,
those times seem to be, you know, vestiges of a past almost
where that it's decreased a lot.
I I wrote the number down butit's like five to eight times
like lower now of kids going outand enjoying the outdoors, and
(02:11):
we think of outdoors as thatkind of free play where it's
unstructured and kids kind offigure out what they want to do
in the games they play, in thenegotiation, all those wonderful
skills they develop.
What is your biggest impressionof?
What has decreased this joy ofjust going outside and just
letting kids be and develop theway that they're supposed to?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Well, I did write a whole book on this, but I would
say that the big drivers arefirst of all, I think there was
a major shift in the 80s, whichwas long after I was a kid.
The 80s saw the growth of cabletelevision, 24-hour news cycle.
What are you going to fill itwith?
You look around for moredisasters and just keep
(02:55):
hammering them home.
I don't know if they did thisin Canada, but in America in the
80s we also got these kids'pictures on the milk cartons.
Did you have this?
It was missing kids' picturesand there was never an asterisk
explaining.
I was taken in a custodialdispute between my divorced
parents, which is generally thecase, or I ran away from home.
My mom remarried a stepdad.
(03:17):
I hated him, whatever.
It was so rarely actual,stranger danger.
And yet that's when that phrasebecame popular.
And there was a mini seriesabout one kid who was abducted
and it broke all ratings records.
And so the TV executives saidget me more of these.
And I don't think theexecutives actually went out and
kidnapped kids, but they didget more of these specials.
(03:39):
And the television news changedto action news or eyewitness
news, which is all about justsending a reporter out with a
microphone to where there's someblood on the ground, and so it
just felt like we were living into use a phrase that's popular
today carnage, and so it feltvery scary.
(04:04):
Have a.
You know we have smallerfamilies and I don't think
smaller families mean you loveyour children more because
there's only two of them insteadof dividing your life, you know
your love between six or eightor 10 of them.
But it does mean that you havemore time per kid and more money
per kid and as the marketplaceadjusts to that fact income
quote unquote must-haves thatnobody must have.
There were products like babyknee pads and there's baby
(04:26):
helmets to wear when your kid istoddling, and there's all sorts
of classes, and the mostegregious is, of course, in New
Jersey.
We make fun of New Jersey.
You must make fun of I don'tknow Newfoundland or something,
but we make fun of New Jerseyall the time and there are
classes there on, like how youknow, for four month olds, you
know how to get them to payattention to sounds and smells
(04:47):
and movement, and it's like howabout you leave them on the
planet Earth and see whathappens?
Speaker 1 (04:53):
That generally is going to unfold.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
You know crawling and how to get your kids engaged.
And listening to music.
It's like if music is playing,I don't care if you like it or
hate it, you're listening to it.
So it was just.
It's this strange sort ofeviscerating of the idea that
anything would happenautomatically and for the best
and a replacement with the ideathat nothing happens unless you
are making it happen.
(05:16):
And if you leave the kids alonethey will fester in stupidity
and danger.
So you better hop in right nowand do something, buy something,
enroll in something, makesomething, read something, blah,
blah, blah.
So I think all those thingstogether.
And then, obviously, recently,there's technology, but I feel
like enough of the world isworrying about the impact of
(05:38):
kids being on social media.
I kind of concern myself withthe impact of kids, knowing that
they are growing up, tracked inevery way and you know you
can't just wander around thewoods.
Oh, why is she at the pond?
Is she drowning?
I better find out.
Let me just text her.
I'm sure this won't change theexperience at all.
Are you OK or are you drowning,drowning, ha ha?
No, really, mom, I'm OK.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Really, yes, really.
Okay, don't forget to smell theflowers, mom.
I'm smelling the flowers.
Oh, how do they smell?
Did you know flower begins withf?
Let's come home and we'll lookup flowers.
So it's that, right, yeah, yeah.
And where are thesemisconceptions?
Like were they?
I mean, it seems like theevidence doesn't point to all of
this.
Right like abductions, like,like you mentioned, is typically
(06:22):
people they might have, mightknow, or within the it's not
like stranger danger.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
A lot, exactly like the stats don't put up the
evidence and your stats are.
Don't even measure like you'rein canada.
Like you know, our our bestdays are your worst days, so
there's just like there's noreason to be afraid of the least
likely thing happening.
Otherwise you would have towear I I don't know a helmet
every day, in case a meteor fellon you, you know, or bring a
(06:49):
raft with you in case there's aflood.
I mean, you can't always thinkthat way and yet, when it comes
to abduction, we've beenencouraged to always imagine the
worst.
And the weird thing aboutimagination is, first of all, I
don't have one.
There's people who can't seethings in their mind.
I think that's why I'm so muchmore rational.
But the other thing aboutimagination is if you can
picture something and you see itin your mind's eye, it's as if
(07:13):
it happened.
I mean, your mind files thataway under drowning or abduction
, even if you watched it on aLaw and Order episode, but
certainly even if you justimagined how sad you'd feel if
your kid was taken from theirfront lawn.
And then it's it's in the pileof.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
these are terrible things that happened, or almost
happened or could happen andit's all the same pile.
Well, yeah, it's, it's, it'squite, uh, it's quite shocking
because in the end, like I'vedone a lot of research and work
with preschool teachers and alot of the research says you
have to give them free play.
They have to have time to growand explore themselves and
problem solve together, likethese skills that are going to
(07:54):
be super important.
Yet we focus on the content ofyou know the cognitive all the
time, know the cognitive all thetime and I kind of wanted to
ask you a little bit about those, that division between the life
skills that we need to givethem versus this idea that they
all have to go to higher ed.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
You know, you know I was yeah, so I was just having
this kind of conversation withum a group of teachers, like by
online up in massachusetts, Iguess down for you in
Massachusetts and an AP historyteacher, you know, raised his
hand oh, perfect.
And said well, you know, you saythat there's these life skills
(08:34):
that are important, but schoolsjudge you on.
You know how many APs you passand your grade point average.
And then I told the story andI'm going to tell it again
because I think it got mesomeplace.
I don't usually chew on andit's nice to have something new
to chew on, which is that Iinterview for Yale.
Yale has a million alumni.
We interview kids because somany kids apply, and on Sunday I
(08:57):
interviewed a girl who startedout by telling me that she can't
stand her math class and she'snot doing too well in chemistry
Okay, but then she tells me thatshe can't stand her math class
and she's not doing too well inchemistry okay, but then she
tells me that she lovesthrifting.
So do I actually wearing thrift?
You can't tell, because, um,not visual, but I'm wearing a
lot of thrift and she loves itso much that she started a
thrift shop at her high schooland at first it was impossible
(09:17):
to get kids to bring stuff in,but then, excuse me, the teacher
started doing it and the kidsdid it, and then they sold it
and they raised $500.
And she decided to give thatmoney to a nonprofit that
recycles the sort of samplesthat designers here in New York
make.
And then she made a littledocumentary about that because
she loved it so much.
(09:38):
And then in the meantime shewanted to read more.
So she started a reading cluband because she's at sort of a
mediocre high school, she'dnever been exposed to even
Nabokov or Lolita.
So they're reading Lolita.
And she said that's such aweird book but it's so
interesting, and so, and thenshe was doing one other thing on
her, when she was running theyearbook.
And then she likes rocks, and Ialways liked rocks as a kid.
(10:01):
Anyways, and running theyearbook she started to realize
that it's hard to get people todo things on deadline.
So she's, she's making thingsinto smaller chunks so that they
meet these little milestonesalong the way.
And I thought this is a genius.
Okay, she's doing bad in math,doing bad in science, but she
has figured out, she's iterating.
Okay, I can't just tell peoplethis is due on January 15, and
(10:21):
expect it to be done.
So I will make it smallerchunks and I will press pause to
make sure that we're all caughtup, and I will find people to
read books with me, and we'lltry to find books that people
say are important, and thenwe'll read them and we'll talk
about them, even without ateacher.
And I love thrift.
What else can I do with thrift?
Let me actually start a thriftshop.
Who starts a thrift shop?
So to me that was superintelligence.
(10:42):
I mean intelligence in othercultures that aren't as college
obsessed as we are.
Consider, the mark of anintelligent person is coming
into a situation, looking around, seeing what has to be done and
then figuring out how to do itand then doing it.
And so I said like, look, I,you know, I don't know if Yale's
going to take her, but I gaveher, you know, you know, two
thumbs up and this girl would befantastic.
(11:03):
And then the sort of peeved APhistory teacher said, excuse me,
one second, mm-hmm, god knowswhat's going on here.
So the peeved AP history teachersaid, well, that's all fine for
Yale, they can pick and choosewho they want, and but what
(11:24):
about everybody else?
And basically what he wassaying is like what about the
unintelligent kids who only haveAP classes to their credit?
And so he was sort of tacitlyadmitting that this was a super
intelligent kid.
So he was sort of tacitlyadmitting that this was a super
intelligent kid and Yale gets totake the most intelligent kids
and not rely on these sort ofmarkers that only tell parents
(11:45):
and schools and guidancecounselors that a kid has
memorized a lot of AP history.
We are recognizing thatintelligence is something that
is only tiny, partially measuredby grades and test scores, and
in reality is measured by whatyou do in the world, what you
(12:08):
make happen and what you figureout from that and how curious
you are and how you follow up onyour curiosity.
Well, isn't that kind of damningof the school system and the
college admissions process?
And the answer is yes, but youstill want your kid to get into
college.
So give them a lot of free timewhen they're younger and then
maybe just crack the whip whenthey're in high school.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, we're even seeing that.
Earlier, like I was talking tosome pre-service teachers and
the pressure they feel of gradeone, of getting the kids ready,
you know in quotes, for you know, and even kids like.
Talking to kids in grade oneand two, I'm like so do you guys
play at all in class?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
And they're like no, there's extra time, or you know,
play a class, but do they playoutside of class?
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Well, they have, they have you.
You know recess and lunchtimeand stuff, but the idea that in
preschool we it's, it'splay-based, right, like they
should be playing lots and lotsand that's how they develop and
learn and they're saying even upuntil great, till eight years
old.
That should be.
Your main focus is play, play.
And yet we have this liketotally shut off the valve of
(13:18):
play once they get in, to startpreparing them for this.
They get into the sausagemachine and it's just like it
doesn't stop.
So kind of thinking of that.
With that in mind.
What's the crux behind?
Let Grow Like what?
Where did that idea start todevelop?
(13:39):
And you have such wonderfulpartners that have?
All come together right toadvocate for this.
So can you explain a little bitabout Let Grow?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, I will.
And then we'll get back to likewhat happens when kids need
more play than they're getting.
So a million years ago, when myyounger son was nine, he'd
wanted me and my husband to takehim someplace he'd never been
before and let him find his ownway home by the subway.
I did that.
I wrote a column a newspapercolumn about it, and two days
later I was on every possibletelevision show I don't know if
(14:10):
you know them so I won't mentionthem, but like all the big
morning shows and news showsdefending myself.
And so the weekend after allthis broke, I started a blog and
I called it Free Range Kids,and my whole premise is that our
kids are smarter and safer thanour culture gives them credit
for.
And so that was all I did.
I wrote the book Free RangeKids, I ran the blog Free Range
(14:31):
Kids.
I went around the country I'veactually been in every province
in Canada giving talks on howdid we get so afraid for our
kids?
And there's a lot of reasons,but the Let Grow happened
because in 2018, daniel Shuckman, who was the chairman of FIRE,
which fights for free speech oncampus, was talking to Jonathan
Haidt, famous most recently forthe book the Anxious Generation,
(14:55):
but he hadn't written it thenand the two of them were talking
about what they were seeing oncampus, because John is a
professor and what they wereseeing is kids who seemed more
fragile than earlier generations, more seeking an adult's help
when something minor happened,like an argument with a roommate
(15:16):
or a mouse in the dorm, andalso mistaking, feeling like
when they felt uncomfortable,they thought they were unsafe,
which is why we started seeingthe rise of safe rooms, safe
spaces, and trigger warningswhen you know when there was a
book they disagreed with or aspeaker they found controversial
, instead of just going in andlistening politely and then
(15:37):
raising your hand and givingyour considered objections and
engaging with an idea that youeither weren't familiar with or
didn't agree with.
And the two of them realizedthat trying to make kids more
open-minded and robust andresilient at age 18, 19, 20 is a
late stage intervention, right?
Why don't we start by raisingkids who are more open, curious
(16:01):
and resourceful, I guess, iswhat you'd say.
So John had read Free RangeKids and had met me and was
raising his kids free range, andhe said well, let's talk to
Lenore, let's start a nonprofitwith her.
And when they came to me I saidtwo things.
One is let's bring in PeterGray as well, because Peter Gray
, you and your listenersprobably know, is a professor of
(16:24):
psychology at Boston Collegewho has spent his life studying
the importance of all agestogether, mixed aged kids, just
playing without anybodyorganizing them.
So we brought in Peter Gray andI said then the other caveat is
that I've been a thought leadernow for like a dozen years and I
can tell you where thoughts go.
They go back to the worst casescenario.
So being a thought leader isn'tgetting me anywhere.
(16:46):
You know, people listen, theynod, they agree.
Oh, yes, I love my childhood.
Oh, I learned so much from freeplay.
I climbed a tree once.
I didn't know how to get down.
We stayed out till thestreetlights came on.
My dad had a bell blah, blah,blah.
Okay, great, but then theywould go home and they couldn't
change because there was no pushand nobody else was doing it.
And so I said we have to come upwith a way to change people's
(17:07):
actions, particularly parents,because the only thing that I've
seen that changes anything whenit comes to a parent is their
kid.
If they are pushed to let go oftheir kid and their kid goes to
the store or makes the snowmanor, you know, organizes a game
of hockey on their own, and thenthey come in and they're you
(17:28):
know, they're rosy-cheeked andthey're excited, or they got
lost or they fell, but it'sstill not the end of the world.
All that rewires the parent,not me saying your kid needs
independence, not me saying theend of the world.
All that rewires the parent,not me saying your kid needs
independence, not me saying thechances of a kid being kidnapped
are like one in a zillion,doesn't matter, but seeing your
own kid do something on theirown is the greatest pleasure any
parent ever has, and I can saythat because when my kids are in
(17:50):
their 20s, when they, you know,get a job, it's a thrill.
When they voluntarily take outthe garbage, which they didn't
do for their first 25 years,that's a thrill, right.
So really, the reward ofparenting is not telling your
kid please do that, and they dothat.
It's them doing something ontheir own, and one of the
reasons that parents are beingdriven so crazy these days is
(18:12):
it's we're with them all thetime, so we're always telling
them what to do, so we never getthe joy of seeing them do
anything on their own, and weget the misery of seeing them do
something badly or be mean ortake a mini risk or do something
, waste their time, and so themore closely we are bound to our
kids, where we see all thefaults and we don't get the
(18:32):
rewards, so Let Grow's main.
We have two programs that werecommend for schools, and all
our materials are free, and oneof them is called the Let Grow
Experience, and this is, youknow, sort of inspired by.
John Haidt always says that acollective problem needs a
collective solution.
I'm afraid to send my kid tothe store.
(18:54):
You're afraid to send your kidto the store, I don't want my
kid on the street, there'snobody else there.
But if we're all doing it atthe same time, then it's
collective action and it breaksthrough.
So the thing the electoralexperience is simply a homework
assignment that teachers givethe students, and it's one page
and it says in more than onesentence, but it basically says
(19:16):
go home and do something new onyour own, with your parents'
permission, but without yourparents.
And then we have a list ofthings they can climb a tree,
they can, you know, makepancakes, they can visit grandma
, whatever it is, and obviouslyit all depends on your
neighborhood and the age of thekid and their interests, because
it should be something thatactually interests them, that
they feel like doing that forone reason or another they
(19:36):
haven't done yet.
And so once that happens, andagain the parent sees the kid
come home, you know, with themilk from the store, that
changes the parent.
But the reason the LECROexperience is so important is
because it puts the cart beforethe horse.
We're making you let go beforeyou're ready to let go, because
once you let go you'll be readythe next time and the next time
(19:56):
and the next one, because itkeeps getting easier.
And then it becomes normal andyou're not the only person doing
it.
So there's not the guilt andthere's not the fear, and it's
recommended by the school, somaybe there's something good
about it.
And then the kid writes a littlereflection.
Like you know, I went to thestore.
How was it?
It was hard but fun.
And then what are you going todo next time?
Next time I want to go get myown haircut or whatever, but I
(20:17):
really feel like we haven'tfigured this out yet, but we
should have.
We should have these littlereflections for the parent,
because the parent has torealize how far they've come
from.
No, they couldn't possibly doit.
There's a big street.
There's a scary dog.
Oh, she's only seven, eight,nine, 10, 11, 12, 13.
She's only 14 years old.
(20:38):
And then afterwards people arelike, well, that was easy.
Or why was I so scared?
Or look at my kid.
But it's never.
Oh, I'm never doing that again.
It's never that.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Right, right.
That's so cool and like whatwas the crux behind when you had
your, your son and you.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
You know that that first that kind of sparked
everything like he had asked.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
I want to go and and like how did you let go, how did
you overcome I don't know fearor like like what's gonna happen
or like what, what was yourprocess that you had to go
through to kind of let thathappen?
Speaker 2 (21:36):
no-transcript.
He needed to take a cab instead.
And back then the nine year oldis 26.
So back then there weretelephones on poles, strangely
enough, and so I gave him somequarters if he had to call us.
And I think I look back, I'vebeen a newspaper columnist for
(21:57):
so long I could find old columnsof mine saying my kids are four
and six years old.
They're boys, you know, when wego to the theater I let them go
into the men's room without mebecause I think they're going to
be okay.
And my kids are now seven andnine and I let them go
downstairs to the courtyard.
There's no cars.
We lived in like a fortress,you know.
Is that crazy to let them takethe elevator by themselves?
(22:18):
And so I think, I think it wasjust something that I believe in
.
Also, I'm a reporter, so all Ido or did was like wander around
the city, and sometimes I wouldjust take the subway, get off,
and I wouldn't let myself getback on until I'd found a story.
And so that just meant I wastalking to strangers all the
time in neighborhoods ofdifferent ethnicities, and it
(22:40):
was, you know, sometimes hard tofind a story, but it was always
interesting because it just hadan excuse to talk to everybody.
And when you realize like thatmost people are either nice or
boring, you know, but not evil,you get a.
I'd say I sort of had a verycorrectly calibrated sense of
reality and also I never watchedthe TV news.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
That helps me.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Yes, yes, because it's just full of anxiety ridden
news anyway, right, it's justthey, you know they.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
If it bleeds, it leads.
But like when I, after I let myson ride the subway and I was
on all these TV shows, there wasa question that a lot of the
interviewers would ask.
It's like, okay, it's great hecame home, he was happy, good
for you.
But what if he didn't come home?
And I'm like, why are wetalking about that?
I don't say you drove to thegrocery today, but what if you
were hit by a drunk driver?
(23:33):
I mean, but there was somethingabout this compulsion of the
media and I say now the cultureat large of thinking that the
normal and safe is the exceptionand the disaster is the rule.
And so let's talk about thedisaster.
And why are we talking aboutkidnapping, which is so rare,
when all I was talking about wasa subway ride on a Sunday in a
(23:56):
neighborhood that I chose?
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Right, right, right.
It's amazing the visceralreaction people had to this.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
I read some of the feedback and the comments the
first comment on my blog from2009 or 2010 was you're an
asshole.
It's like this is kind of great.
This will forever be there.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
People respond to that kind of you know it's like
children, oh my God, we mustprotect them.
And it's like thisoverbearingness almost, because
it's the opposite of how kidshave grown up since the dawn of
time, really right, Like it'sonly recently.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Parents have always wanted to protect their kids,
but one of the ways you protectthem is by allowing them to
develop some skills and somestreet smarts and some
relationship abilities so thatthey'll be okay.
And when you take all thoseaway and all you give them is
the backseat of the car and afive-point harness until they go
off to college, you'veprotected them from something
(25:03):
that they were protected fromanyhow, which was being
kidnapped, because whether theywere in the car or not in the
car, they weren't going to bekidnapped.
But in the meantime, you havenot protected them from the big
things.
Actually, the new big fears ofparents' day is that their child
will be anxious and depressed,and Peter Gray, who I work with,
did a big study that waspublished in the Journal of
Pediatrics that found that overthe decades, as children's
(25:24):
independence and free play havegone down not just since COVID,
not just since the iPhone,decades of this going down and
being replaced by supervised,structured activities their
anxiety and depression have beengoing up.
And I always want them tomeasure something else, which is
passivity, because when I'vebeen at school I can't remember
was I this dulled out at school?
(25:46):
Maybe I was.
I mean, maybe it's been so longI don't remember, but I see
these kids and it's like kids,you know.
Today we have a visitor, okay,okay, and let's talk about what
you've been doing.
What have you been doing?
I picked up my pencil.
What my pencil?
You picked up your pencil.
(26:07):
Wow, class.
Did you hear that?
He picked up his pencil?
Let's give him a high five.
It's.
There's something very umunreal about the this, the whole
kabuki of some of the schoolsthat I've been in, and I've been
in some schools which is theopposite, where kids are excited
(26:30):
and can't wait to tell youthings and are engaged, whether
it's in class or at recess.
But I've been in enough thatthe kids seem almost like their
body is there, but they'rehaving an out of body experience
and their other body is at hometaking a nap.
So I see that I see that.
You do see that.
(26:50):
How young do you see it?
Speaker 1 (26:52):
I see it like, I can see it in grade one, I see it in
grade two, three, I mean, asyou get into high school, you
see at least half have checkedout.
You know, or just like I don'tdo math, or you know, they just
are fearful of wrong answers.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
They're really afraid they're people talking.
I mean I would be in class Isay, like what?
I'd just be this obnoxious,like what lady?
And it's like I decided I wouldgo to a room.
You can't, you can't mutter.
They've been through theprocess where the teacher talks
and you listen.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Right and that dynamic must shift dramatically.
But all things in educationtake time.
It's not a very proactivecommunity at times, because they
do have these structures, theymust follow.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah, well, sometimes it's just the you know the
requirements of the district.
It's like you must spend thismuch time in seats and you must
have, you know, have proficiencyon X or Y.
But I think I think one of thethings too is that the less we
see kids doing on their own, theless we believe they can do.
And I'm sure that's true inschools too.
(28:15):
If the kids never speak up,maybe just give up on having
them speak.
And it's hard, I think, for ateacher or a parent or almost
any adult to recognize how muchkids learn when we're not
teaching them.
And really I don't have it.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
I think that would be a scary realization for
teachers to realize that myeffectiveness of like
transmission of stuff reallydoesn't help much.
You know, the soft skills, thepersonal development, the, the
things that are going to besuper important in their lives,
that they need, um, you know, Imean content comes and goes and
(28:55):
I can find it if I need to, andwe put so much onus on that
rather than this developingthese future generations that
are going to be, you know, inour positions down the road, and
so it's.
It does have this kind of um,generational effect to it as
well.
Um, and and you so right, Imean, it wasn't COVID where this
(29:16):
started happening.
This happened way before allthis stuff.
I love that point that you madethat we think, you know,
sometimes might have thismisconception that, oh, it's
just recently, but no, it's notrecently.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Although COVID did a huge number it sure, did it sure
did On kids and parents andschool, it really amplified it
all.
Yeah, it was like yeah, sointeresting.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Well, I just want to thank you for taking some time.
I really appreciate yourinsights.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
You're welcome, but I have to make one other plug.
So, let grow, does two things inschools or recommends two
things from schools, and theother is that the schools stay
open for mixed age.
No phone replay before or afterschool, so that you know if
kids go home they're going to goonto their screens or they're
going to go into someadult-organized activity, which
is fine, but it doesn't teachall those skills we've been
(30:04):
talking about, the negotiationand compromise and creativity.
So there's sort of no place inkids' lives where they're with
other kids of different ages andnot on a device.
You know where there's time andspace and other kids and it's a
device-free area.
So I think of it as a wildlifesanctuary.
(30:25):
So if you can keep your schoolopen for that and you have an
adult who's there but they'rejust like a you know a lifeguard
, they're not intervening,they're not organizing the games
Then you've provided them withthis very enriched environment
which happens to be time, space,other kids combined, without
phones.
So consider doing that andwe've seen amazing results.
(30:48):
We had a teacher who startedone and took, went and got all
the metrics from how manyprincipal's office visits
happened before the first yearof play club, second year, third
year.
He's been in five years of playclub now and they've gone down
over the years as they'vematriculated more kids into
(31:10):
playing and playing became abigger thing and now they're
open every day before school forfree play.
Kids love coming to school evenmore.
They're not late, there's lessschool refusal and the
discipline problems.
They're not completely gone,but they've come there.
They've plunged since givingkids back and I always think of
(31:30):
it as like it's like if you tookall the whole wheat out of
bread and then you were feedingkids this nice white, fluffy
loaf which is, you know, sort ofthe adult organized world, but
then you put the whole wheatback and then they stop drooping
because they're getting thenutrients that come from
organizing your own game.
Finding a new friend, meeting akid in a different grade, trying
(31:51):
something new, or just knowingyou're going to see your friends
and have time together thatisn't at a desk is really great.
So the Let Grow Play Club andthe Let Grow Experience are both
at letgroworg, both free, easy.
It's so easy it's kind ofembarrassing that we've turned
them into you know, quoteunquote curricula, because I
(32:12):
just explained them to you intwo seconds.
But there they are and there'sletters to send home to the
parents and there's, you know,for further reading, but really
it boils down to more free playand independence Perfect.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Well, I'll definitely share those links in the in the
bio and um on the blog poststhat I'll put up.
Um, just so insightful, um.
Thank you so much again.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
You'd hope I'd have some insights, talking about the
same thing for 16 years.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Like we said, nothing goes quickly in education, um,
but I think, like your resourcesare definitely something that
people should have in theirhands and have an awareness of,
so I will make that happen, uh,here in our province.
Um, I appreciate your time andI hope that we, uh we touch base
again.
Uh, lenore, this has been a lotof fun.
I've really enjoyed talkingwith you.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Ditto.
Your listeners can send mestories.
I live through stories ofsomething that a kid did or a
parent realized or a teacher saw.
So it's just Lenore L-E-N-O-R-Eat letgroworg.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
And she's amazing at responding to emails Sometimes,
except when I lose them, allright.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Chris Pleasure.
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