March 18, 2025 • 27 mins
What if our children's screen time challenges aren't actually about them at all? When Emily Cherkin noticed her 7th-grade students increasingly absorbed by social media, they quickly pointed out an uncomfortable truth: "My parents are texting while driving, playing Candy Crush, always on Facebook." This pivotal realization—that screen addiction is fundamentally an adult problem affecting children—sparked Emily's journey toward helping families navigate digital life more intentionally.
Drawing from her experience as both educator and parent, Emily highlights the dramatic shift in both educational technology and personal device use over the past decade. She reveals the fascinating paradox of modern parenting: we overprotect our children in the physical world while dangerously underprotecting them online. Despite kidnapping being parents' #1 fear (statistically requiring a child to stand on a street corner for 750,000 years to be kidnapped), we readily hand kids devices that guarantee exposure to the real dangers of social media and cyberbullying.
The consequences are profound. Today's children are struggling to develop crucial skills like frustration tolerance, perseverance, and comfort with boredom. When parents constantly rescue, protect, and solve problems for their children—both online and offline—they inadvertently undermine confidence and resilience. As Emily notes, "Learning happens in moments of friction," and we're systematically removing those essential learning opportunities.
But there's hope in simple strategies. "Replace judgment with curiosity" by shifting from accusatory statements to genuine questions. Practice "living out loud" by verbalizing your own technology use. Turn off notifications to reduce anxiety and improve focus. These small changes create significant impacts on family dynamics around technology.
Ready to transform your family's relationship with screens? Listen now for practical wisdom on becoming tech-intentional in a digital world.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Colley (00:13):
well, here we are, another episode shifted podcast
.
Uh, we're coming from thebeautiful sunny, as you can see
oh, you won't see, because it'saudio only, but it's sunny,
trust me, and it's audio only,but it's sunny, trust me, and
it's a beautiful day.
And today I have Emily Cherkincoming in from down south.
Emily, where are you coming infrom?
Emily Cherkin (00:34):
I'm in Seattle, washington, so office and coast,
but not too far from yourborder.
Chris Colley (00:40):
Right on.
So our neighbor to the southand Emily's the author of an
amazing book called Screen TimeSolutions a judgment free guide
to becoming a tech intentionalfamily, and that's just such
great stuff in this book.
I encourage you guys to get acopy, read it and we're going to
talk a little bit about it.
But we're going to talk aboutthe crux of all of this, um,
(01:03):
screen time that I know all ofthe listeners out there.
You're dealing with it.
If you didn't want to admit itor not, we're dealing with it.
But how can we better deal withit?
Because it sometimes feels likeit's slipping away from us a
bit.
So, emily, thanks again forjoining today.
Um, I really love your book.
I think it's just so wellwritten and your insights are
(01:23):
just.
You talk about a lot of ahamoments.
Well, this book created a lotof aha moments for me, so I
thank you for that and puttingthat out into the world.
But I'd like to start alwayswith these is how did you, what
were some turning points ortipping points that got you to
where you are today in thisjourney of yours?
Emily Cherkin (01:44):
Yeah, that's a great question and I can tell
you very clearly.
So I was a classroom teacherfor 12 years.
I taught seventh grade English,working on literature and
writing and all that stuff, andabout five or six years into my
teaching career as a teacher, Iwas increasingly being asked to
enter grades in an online portal.
Teacher, I was increasinglybeing asked to enter grades in
(02:07):
an online portal.
Parents had access to thesegrades 24-7.
And I noticed two things happenalmost simultaneously.
One my students stopped comingto talk to me about grades or
missing a homework or what do Ineed to do to make this
assignment up, and their parentsstarted emailing me all the
time refreshing that gradingportal, started emailing me all
(02:27):
the time refreshing that gradingportal, and both of those had a
direct impact on the time I wasspending with my students,
because now I was spending timebehind my computer entering the
grades and responding to parentemails and I was deeply
concerned about the way it waschanging my students' skill
building that I saw is socritically important in that
middle school age.
You know that executivefunction asking for help
planning your you know projectsand homework and all that.
(02:47):
So that was a really big ahamoment for me, and that was as a
teacher.
Right, I was being asked About.
The same time, my students wereincreasingly accessing social
media platforms on their homecomputers.
Right, this is pre-personaldevices and, in fact, when I
first started teaching in 2003,none of my students had devices
(03:08):
personal devices by the time Ileft in 2015,.
it was like 95% had them, so injust over a decade it was a huge
shift for that part of it.
So when I talk about screens, Imean there really are sort of
two existing problems.
Well, I mean there's manyproblems, but the two is the
personal device one, and thenthere's the sort of ed tech one,
(03:29):
and actually they happened tome at about the same time.
So when my students were goingonline at home and at the time,
of course, it was Facebook,which no tween would be caught
dead on Facebook.
Now, you know, they would comeinto school the next day talking
about oh well, somebody didn'ttag me in this post and I didn't
get invited to this party, andI'm feeling really bad and I was
(03:50):
like, wait a minute, this ishaving a huge impact on their
social skills.
We cannot not talk about this.
So that really led me toconversations with my students,
who then quickly pointed outwell, yeah, but my parents are
texting and driving.
Students who then quicklypointed out well, yeah, but my
parents are texting and driving,my parents are playing Candy
Crush, my parents are onFacebook.
And I was like, ding, this isnot a kid problem.
(04:11):
It's an adult problem that'simpacting children.
Chris Colley (04:19):
So those are sort of my aha moments.
That's a huge realization,though, coming to you, that kids
don't just start doing thisstuff.
They have to get it fromsomewhere.
It's not just you know osmosisor like magical things, spells
or something that happens tothem.
They see it and then theyinternalize it, right.
Right, you said somethingreally interesting too that I
want to kind of drill down on alittle bit.
(04:41):
Drill down on a little bit isdo you think that, um, that
screens the accessibility thatthe kids have to it now that
it's become so easy?
Do you think that we kind ofmiss the boat on not the phones
but what happens in the phone,like more around social media?
Like I find that schools andparents, you know but I kind of
(05:04):
see it from a teacher'sperspective as well that we kind
of miss that social mediaeducation or digital citizenship
brie, or because it alwaysseemed like it was it's
everybody's responsibility andno one's responsibility and it
sometimes got overlooked as wejust didn't see what it was
going to do to these kids.
(05:25):
I mean, I guess in hindsight,right, we have that information
now.
Emily Cherkin (05:30):
Yes.
Chris Colley (05:31):
But will it inform our practice and how do you
think we can get back on trackwith social media, because that
seems to me the biggestattraction for kids.
Emily Cherkin (05:43):
That's such a good observation because I think
you're.
I think you're totally right,we're just, it's a constant game
of catch up because and I thinkthat is because it has changed
so rapidly in such a shortperiod of time Like, I often say
that this is a maybe 10 yearold problem, but really it's a
five-year-old problem and, like,if you don't have kids that
(06:04):
were school age in the last fiveto 10 years, it's not at all
the same.
And I'll even joke to parentslike I actually would love if my
kid had access to 2011Instagram.
That would be fine, I mean, no,it wouldn't.
But, like, I would be so muchmore okay with that because it
is so fundamentally differenttoday, so fundamentally
different today.
So I think that's a reallyreally good point.
(06:25):
That is like, did we miss theboat?
And I'm an eternal optimist.
So I think the answer is no.
It's never too late.
And I think what we're hearinga lot from like Gen Z now is you
guys set us up with some prettybad stuff and we're paying the
price and we're mad about it.
So you know, I think thatgroundswell is going to help,
(06:48):
and I also just point to thefact that adults are so terrible
at our own use of managingsocial media screens.
Whatever that, we're startingto realize the impact it's
having on our lives, Right?
So it's sort of, as you pointout, touches everyone, whether
we want to admit it or not.
Chris Colley (07:02):
Yeah, Right, right .
And do you think, like lookingat these patterns?
I mean, if we look atgenerational use?
I mean, obviously we're, we'relooking at technology towards
now, but parents have beenparents for forever and and and
had kids that that you know werecurious about things and want
(07:22):
to discover and didn't want tolisten there.
Like those relationshipshaven't changed all that much,
or have they as generations?
Like, is it the older thegeneration the less likely that
that screens will be affecting?
Or or the technology?
Like, will you have 70 yearolds like on screen for 12 hours
(07:45):
a day?
Emily Cherkin (07:46):
or like that's a good question.
Chris Colley (07:49):
Has generations been affected by this in
different ways?
Emily Cherkin (07:53):
Yes is a short answer and I think it's really
interesting because you're, ifwe think about grandparents for
a moment, you know, and I heartwo very different challenges
with grandparenting in thedigital age.
One is grandparents who arehorrified by how much time their
grandchildren are on devices,and the other is how many
parents are concerned becausetheir parents, the grandparents,
(08:14):
are giving the tech to thegrandkids because that's what
they see everybody doing.
So it's it tends to sort of gointo those extremes.
Um, yeah, that's a really goodquestion.
I do think there are general.
I'm Gen X pretty solidly and Ithink my millennial parent
friends and colleagues do have aslightly different view than I
do, because I remember an analogchildhood.
(08:37):
I I, I mean Gen X is kind ofthat last generation of really,
you know, running around theneighborhood and coming in when
the lights came on and, like youknow, sort of free play that
had really changed, and I knowyou had Lenore Skenazy on your
podcast as well she talks a lotabout that fear-based parenting
that led a lot of sort of lateGen X, millennial parenting into
(09:02):
this, like fear-based mindsetthat you know kept kids indoors
more.
So it's easy to blame screens,as like the problem, but it's
just one of many and I thinkthere are some parenting
cultural shifts, such asfear-based parenting, that have
really exacerbated the problem.
Chris Colley (09:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
I often talk like I work withpreschool teachers and getting
them to understand play and freeplay, particularly with our
pre-service teachers or teachersthat are just coming into the
profession.
They struggle with that and I'mlike I'm so curious all the
time.
So my first question to them isalways is how did you play when
(09:43):
you were young?
You know, like when you weregrowing up, what was your play
like?
And a lot of them you know itwas very, again screen oriented
and I'm talking about you know,newer teachers coming in around
in their early 20s, that we'velost connection with this play,
and Lenore talks about it sonicely in her book and the
(10:04):
podcast as well.
I know that the stranger dangeris there Two parents working
all the time.
There's less green space.
There's more of this unknown.
In your opinion, what broughtall this about?
Is there traces that we cantrace to?
Where this?
(10:24):
Can you?
Can you elaborate on that a bit?
Emily Cherkin (10:27):
Because I find it fascinating.
I do too.
Chris Colley (10:29):
Going on so quickly.
Emily Cherkin (10:31):
Yes, I do too, and I write about this in the
book, and Lenore's work hascertainly influenced my thinking
on this as well.
One of the things that I thinkreally changed for parents is
our increased consumption of24-7 media, and, you know, now
it's 24-7.
Maybe 20 years ago it was justall-day news, right, but even
(10:52):
the 24-hour news channel thingwas becoming.
You know, we were just it usedto be.
You get the news once a day,you know, it might be even in a
paper, right, and there was nolike interaction and comment
section and all of this.
It's just so different and so Athat's part of it.
The other problem is, of course, the business model of tech
relies on engagement and clicksand eyeballs, and so in order to
(11:13):
get us to engage more in these24-7 news cycles, which are
really boring if you don't havesensationalized stories, they
had to sensationalize thestories or only highlight the
sensational stories as aresult, we, as a parenting
generation were like oh my gosh,the world is so dangerous, oh
my gosh, kids are gettingkidnapped left and right.
But and this is what I I reallytalk about this in is a
(11:37):
dichotomy between what is scaryand what is dangerous, and Pew
Research found in America thatthe top three parenting fears
are number one is kidnapping,number two is youth mental
health and number three iscyberbullying.
And, as Sesame Street used tosay, one of these things is not
(11:58):
like the other, because it isshocking to see kidnapping as
the number one fear, and here'swhy it's because of our own
fear-based news, clickbaitheadlines.
We think it's a problem.
But the irony is parents'response to that is I need to
give my kid a phone to keep themsafe.
(12:20):
If my kid has a phone and theyGod forbid get kidnapped, I
could call them, I could tracethem, whatever.
But if you give your child aphone, what do you do?
You make number two and threeyouth mental health and cyber
bullying way worse automatically.
And so I understand theintention and in fact, I think
Lenore has.
Oh my goodness, let's cut thatpart, sorry, no problem.
(12:44):
I think Lenore in her book.
She writes about the risk ofkidnapping and there's a
statistic I love to talk aboutright, which is if you wanted
your child to be kidnapped,you'd have to put them on the
street corner every day for750,000 years to be guaranteed
of being kidnapped, which is-.
Chris Colley (13:02):
And this is number one, number one fear, number
one.
Emily Cherkin (13:05):
So a lot of the conversations I have with
parents and in the work I do isto really help bring parents
awareness to worry about theright thing that your kid's not
going to get kidnapped, but yourkid is going to experience harm
in social media.
It's not a matter of if it's aquestion of when, and so helping
them worry about or address theproblem that they can actually
(13:27):
do something about right.
And that's hard, I mean I havea lot of empathy for parents.
It is scary, it feels scary butit isn't dangerous.
Chris Colley (13:37):
Right, right.
Yeah, it's similar to like inpreschool teachers not wanting
kids to do risky play.
Yet that's how they build whothey are as humans.
Like, if you're not going tolet them take chances, you think
they're going to take chanceswhen they're older.
Emily Cherkin (13:52):
Never.
Chris Colley (13:53):
I love the reference.
You turned helicopter parentsinto snowplow parents as time
has changed and I totally thatwas like yes.
Emily Cherkin (14:06):
Yeah, and I didn't come up with that, but it
was an aha moment for me when Iheard that like this idea that
now, parents, we go ahead andmow away obstacles, you know, to
give kids a clear path, and yetwhat they really need is a
bumpy road.
They need that opportunity tomess up in preschool in a safe
environment, right when theteachers are there to help guide
(14:27):
them.
And when we take that away, itdoesn't shock me at all that
mental health is in a crisis,you know for youth?
Chris Colley (14:34):
Absolutely, yeah, oh, totally, and I guess I had a
question about that is that doyou think that?
What skills in particular doyou find that are being left in
the history dustbin that we justaren't, yeah, we aren't
achieving anymore and thisgeneration will feel it once
they hit yes, you know of age?
(14:55):
Um, yeah, what are some ofthose really valuable skills
that they that have to happen?
Emily Cherkin (15:00):
yes, absolutely great questionration.
Tolerance is a huge one.
You know, the ability to sitwith something that's
uncomfortable or scary ordifficult, I think, which the
flip side of that would beperseverance, right, the ability
to get through something andknow you are capable, right?
I think again, certainlyparents overprotect in the real
(15:23):
world and underprotect online,which is Jonathan Haidt's line,
but so that's a big one.
I think also, again,inadvertently, parents are
undermining children'sconfidence in their own skill
set when they rescue, protect,save, prevent.
You know hover, whatever wordyou want to use, you know hover,
(15:47):
whatever word you want to use.
And parents can make somedifferent choices about letting
their kids have these moments ofstruggle and see that as a gift
.
In fact, I often will say toparents what gift are you giving
your children when you providethem those experiences, or when
you delay the screen or when yousay no?
And I think this is all tied in.
But parents are afraid to sayno about the screen.
You know they're going to bejudged by their peers or
(16:08):
everyone else.
Quote unquote has it Right?
So I do.
I say to parents it's not yourfault, but it is your
responsibility, you know, and itis time to step into that
authoritative parenting, notauthority, big difference.
But you know, we need to say noand we need to tell our kids.
I know it's hard and I believein your ability to do it,
(16:32):
because that's what our kidsneed to hear so that they can
practice.
You know perseverance and andfrustration, tolerance and
boredom oh my gosh, boredom is asoul that we have to you.
Chris Colley (16:43):
You know it's a muscle we have to flex right
like exactly like what am Igoing to do with on my screen?
I'm going to be bored.
Oh, I'm not going to be able tofollow up all the other kids.
Like it's such a pressure fromyour kids too, and you always,
like, you want to please yourkids.
Yeah, as teachers want toplease their students.
Like I see the parallel natureof it happening.
Yes, that we want them to be youknow and I can help you with
(17:07):
all your problems.
And don't worry, I'll be therefor you if you struggle.
Emily Cherkin (17:11):
And instead of letting struggle happen and
developing resilience and stufflike that, yeah, and I was just
going to add that friction is soimportant here, right, and I
have a post on my screen thatsays learning happens in moments
of friction and that can be inthe classroom or at home.
We have to let our children hitthose bumps in the road so they
(17:35):
know we can guide them, we canmodel, we can give examples, we
can ask if they want help.
But when we solve it for them,we take away the opportunity to
learn something.
And that is where we see thatlonger term problem.
You know the mental health,insecurity, lack of confidence
coming out.
Chris Colley (17:51):
Absolutely Well and I think our systems are
designed that way to look forerror and look at them
negatively instead of learningopportunities.
And you see that with parentsand with teachers, right, this
kind of taking away any kind ofidea that mistakes are important
, that they help me and informme and make me grow.
Emily Cherkin (18:14):
And I see that also in the form of platforms
like surveillance technology,which catches, quote, unquote
kids making mistakes and reportsit to parents or schools and
says your kid typed this or yourkid searched up that.
And again I mean I'm sorry, butsurveillance erodes trust and
trust is the foundation of ahealthy society, right, like a
(18:36):
healthy family, of a healthyschool.
And so I see a lot of red flagswith that Again the misguided
preying on people parent fearthat but not actually thinking
about what's dangerous.
What's dangerous is not lettingchildren build the skills so
that they can thrive, so thatthey can trust others.
(18:56):
Right, that, to me, is reallyimportant.
Chris Colley (19:00):
Yeah, and one of your quotes which I really love,
kind of how can we turn thisconversation around to see it in
a positive light, that we canempower ourselves and I'm not
sure if you said it, but youreference it, call it saying
replace judgment with curiosity,have to judge about it because
(19:25):
we're all kind of doing it,we're in the same boat together,
but how can we re jig theconversation around and how we
talk to our kids or our studentsabout screen time so that
they're not feeling like, oh,I'm doing something wrong, but
you're just, we need to get moreinformed about stuff?
Could you, could you elaborateon that quote, cause I just love
it.
Emily Cherkin (19:43):
I do too.
It's not's not mine, and Ialways open my talks with this
story because I loved that too.
And I joke that I first heardit when I took a mindfulness
class with my husband when wewere newly married and I had
time to take mindfulness classesbecause we didn't have kids yet
.
But I heard that and I thought,oh my gosh, it's all about the
(20:04):
reframe.
I feel like when we're injudgment, we are defensive or
other people feel defensive, butif you reframe it as curiosity,
it disarms that stressintention, and so one of the
ways I see that playing out withparents in screen time, for
example, is you know, if, forexample, you say to your child,
(20:26):
you're always on your phone, Ican't believe it.
You're so rude.
You know the things that we allhave said and say and instead
say I wonder why it's so hardfor you to put your phone down.
Or I forgot to teach you thisis one of my favorites I forgot
to teach you that when we go torestaurants, it's rude to look
at your phone and you have tomake eye contact with a waiter
when you order.
I forgot to teach you that.
(20:47):
So again, that shift in how wesay it, just that little again.
If our goal as parents is toteach, which I believe it is we
are our children's firstteachers then that is part of
the process.
Is we say oh, oh, my gosh, Ineed to teach you this skill,
like it didn't occur to me thatI hadn't Right?
(21:09):
I just think again like itallows us to just de-escalate
the conflict and stress around atopic that is so fraught.
Chris Colley (21:18):
Absolutely.
And another really cool tipthat you had given out was
living out loud or saying youruse.
You know like, ok, I'm going tocheck my phone now, I've got to
look at some emails, I have areally important one coming in
or whatever it might be, butyou're verbalizing that usage
and I thought that that was justa great trick to you know, get
(21:41):
people aware of the amount ofuse they might be having,
because not everybody looks atscreen time use or wants to for
(22:06):
using it with technology,because it's that accountability
piece and it's that increasingour own awareness of our use and
getting to teach our childrenabout how we use tech or how
tech uses us right.
Emily Cherkin (22:14):
So, that is the starting point, and it is
important to note that I tellparents to do this, not children
.
It starts with the adult rightand the hope is that kids will,
then, well, they're going toroll their eyes, which they
should and they will.
Chris Colley (22:31):
But that means they're listening Exactly.
Emily Cherkin (22:33):
Exactly.
Chris Colley (22:34):
Something's sunk in there and they're like
thinking it's churning Exactly.
Emily Cherkin (22:38):
Yeah, and eventually we want to see them
doing it too.
You know, and that's whereagain we can do that reframe.
We can say, you know, my sonmight hear his phone making a
notification and he'll say, oh,I'm going to go reach for my
phone and check what that wasand I'll say thank you for
living your life out loud, Right.
So I'm naming it because I wantthat attention to that behavior
to continue.
(22:59):
Like I want him to say thatagain.
So I get to name it and give itthat positive reinforcement,
because again we're so quick tocriticize, judge, blame, get mad
.
But where attention goes,energy flows right.
Like we want them to hear thepositive things, what we want to
see more of, not what we wantless of.
Chris Colley (23:19):
Yeah absolutely Absolutely.
And I think.
One last thing that we'll we'llend on here again there were so
many aha moments when I wasgoing through some of the other
podcasts that you've been a partof in your book as well.
Um, that a simple thing liketurning your notifications off
can help reduce so much anxiety.
(23:42):
What am I missing?
Focus a little bit more, and itseems like such an easy thing
to do, but would have reallygood outcomes.
Emily Cherkin (23:51):
Yeah, net benefit right away?
Yeah, absolutely.
It's one thing.
I've had my notifications offfor years.
I never miss text messagesbecause the reality is my
phone's always nearby or it's onmy computer, you know, and
thankfully there's things likeyou know you can put do not
disturb, and that's a slightimprovement, right, but yeah,
you know again any if we'reletting this device interfere
(24:13):
and actually I quote my husbandhere he's like letting someone
who's not even in the room textyou like while you're in the
middle of talking to your childis giving permission to that
person to interrupt you And'renot even physically there you
know, it's a pretty shockingthing to think about it if you
you know it is how do they havethat much power over us?
You know?
Chris Colley (24:34):
and it's like the urgency, like it's like I see it
in workshops sometimes too likeI'll know, like, oh, they just
got a notification.
They start to get antsy andthen they'll get up and walk out
, you know, to go, and I'm likewe're in the middle of something
here, like and these are likeeducators tolerance too, or the
boredom even, like you know,knowing that you can trust
(24:56):
yourself to survive 40 minuteswithout looking at your phone.
Emily Cherkin (25:00):
Like what would that?
Chris Colley (25:02):
be like.
Emily Cherkin (25:02):
I wonder if that's even the opening question
is what would it feel likeright now if I asked you to turn
your phones off and put them inthe other room and you have to
like?
How does that make you feelwhen you think about it?
Right, because I'm guessing alot of people are going to say,
oh, I get all panicky or anxious.
Chris Colley (25:17):
Oh for sure, I think they were right.
Refuse, no, no, my daughter'sgoing to contact me.
Or oh, the dentist is calling.
I got to.
I mean, think 10 years ago,what did you do?
That's it.
And then the reframe.
Emily Cherkin (25:33):
Yeah, right, and the reframe of what gift might
you be giving yourself to not beavailable 24-7, to have to
delay gratification or response,Like what is really the worst
thing that could happen.
I mean, yes, I know I'm goingto get a list, but it's also
really good to model that rightthat our kids don't need to
respond right away, just like wedon't need to, that's it.
Chris Colley (25:56):
Well, I have to think about replace judgment
with curiosity when we're having.
I was thinking too, like at thestart of a workshop, like can
everybody just silence theirphone or put it in a box?
That's a door, because it doeseat into time and and the
distraction is continuouslythere.
Emily Cherkin (26:14):
Um, well, maybe start with that story and ask
the as a question.
What would it feel like?
I'm curious yeah and do youthink you can challenge yourself
Right, I'm into that Cool.
Chris Colley (26:32):
Well, Emily, this has been fantastic.
It's such a great, amazingtopic and your words and insight
is so valuable for thelisteners, so thank you for
taking some time out.
I appreciate your time.
People Screen time solution Goget it.
Emily Cherkin (26:49):
Read it.
Chris Colley (26:50):
Ask your kids questions, remember, replace
judgment with curiosity and turnthe future around a little bit.
Yes, we need it.
Emily Cherkin (27:00):
We're going to do it.
We are Thank you for having me.
Chris Colley (27:03):
Thanks, emily, my pleasure Great, eat it.
We're gonna do it, we are thankyou for having me thanks emily.
well, here we are, another episode shifted podcast
.
Uh, we're coming from thebeautiful sunny, as you can see
oh, you won't see, because it'saudio only, but it's sunny,
trust me, and it's audio only,but it's sunny, trust me, and
it's a beautiful day.
And today I have Emily Cherkincoming in from down south.
Emily, where are you coming infrom?
Emily Cherkin (00:34):
I'm in Seattle, washington, so office and coast,
but not too far from yourborder.
Chris Colley (00:40):
Right on.
So our neighbor to the southand Emily's the author of an
amazing book called Screen TimeSolutions a judgment free guide
to becoming a tech intentionalfamily, and that's just such
great stuff in this book.
I encourage you guys to get acopy, read it and we're going to
talk a little bit about it.
But we're going to talk aboutthe crux of all of this, um,
(01:03):
screen time that I know all ofthe listeners out there.
You're dealing with it.
If you didn't want to admit itor not, we're dealing with it.
But how can we better deal withit?
Because it sometimes feels likeit's slipping away from us a
bit.
So, emily, thanks again forjoining today.
Um, I really love your book.
I think it's just so wellwritten and your insights are
(01:23):
just.
You talk about a lot of ahamoments.
Well, this book created a lotof aha moments for me, so I
thank you for that and puttingthat out into the world.
But I'd like to start alwayswith these is how did you, what
were some turning points ortipping points that got you to
where you are today in thisjourney of yours?
Emily Cherkin (01:44):
Yeah, that's a great question and I can tell
you very clearly.
So I was a classroom teacherfor 12 years.
I taught seventh grade English,working on literature and
writing and all that stuff, andabout five or six years into my
teaching career as a teacher, Iwas increasingly being asked to
enter grades in an online portal.
Teacher, I was increasinglybeing asked to enter grades in
(02:07):
an online portal.
Parents had access to thesegrades 24-7.
And I noticed two things happenalmost simultaneously.
One my students stopped comingto talk to me about grades or
missing a homework or what do Ineed to do to make this
assignment up, and their parentsstarted emailing me all the
time refreshing that gradingportal, started emailing me all
(02:27):
the time refreshing that gradingportal, and both of those had a
direct impact on the time I wasspending with my students,
because now I was spending timebehind my computer entering the
grades and responding to parentemails and I was deeply
concerned about the way it waschanging my students' skill
building that I saw is socritically important in that
middle school age.
You know that executivefunction asking for help
planning your you know projectsand homework and all that.
(02:47):
So that was a really big ahamoment for me, and that was as a
teacher.
Right, I was being asked About.
The same time, my students wereincreasingly accessing social
media platforms on their homecomputers.
Right, this is pre-personaldevices and, in fact, when I
first started teaching in 2003,none of my students had devices
(03:08):
personal devices by the time Ileft in 2015,.
it was like 95% had them, so injust over a decade it was a huge
shift for that part of it.
So when I talk about screens, Imean there really are sort of
two existing problems.
Well, I mean there's manyproblems, but the two is the
personal device one, and thenthere's the sort of ed tech one,
(03:29):
and actually they happened tome at about the same time.
So when my students were goingonline at home and at the time,
of course, it was Facebook,which no tween would be caught
dead on Facebook.
Now, you know, they would comeinto school the next day talking
about oh well, somebody didn'ttag me in this post and I didn't
get invited to this party, andI'm feeling really bad and I was
(03:50):
like, wait a minute, this ishaving a huge impact on their
social skills.
We cannot not talk about this.
So that really led me toconversations with my students,
who then quickly pointed outwell, yeah, but my parents are
texting and driving.
Students who then quicklypointed out well, yeah, but my
parents are texting and driving,my parents are playing Candy
Crush, my parents are onFacebook.
And I was like, ding, this isnot a kid problem.
(04:11):
It's an adult problem that'simpacting children.
Chris Colley (04:19):
So those are sort of my aha moments.
That's a huge realization,though, coming to you, that kids
don't just start doing thisstuff.
They have to get it fromsomewhere.
It's not just you know osmosisor like magical things, spells
or something that happens tothem.
They see it and then theyinternalize it, right.
Right, you said somethingreally interesting too that I
want to kind of drill down on alittle bit.
(04:41):
Drill down on a little bit isdo you think that, um, that
screens the accessibility thatthe kids have to it now that
it's become so easy?
Do you think that we kind ofmiss the boat on not the phones
but what happens in the phone,like more around social media?
Like I find that schools andparents, you know but I kind of
(05:04):
see it from a teacher'sperspective as well that we kind
of miss that social mediaeducation or digital citizenship
brie, or because it alwaysseemed like it was it's
everybody's responsibility andno one's responsibility and it
sometimes got overlooked as wejust didn't see what it was
going to do to these kids.
(05:25):
I mean, I guess in hindsight,right, we have that information
now.
Emily Cherkin (05:30):
Yes.
Chris Colley (05:31):
But will it inform our practice and how do you
think we can get back on trackwith social media, because that
seems to me the biggestattraction for kids.
Emily Cherkin (05:43):
That's such a good observation because I think
you're.
I think you're totally right,we're just, it's a constant game
of catch up because and I thinkthat is because it has changed
so rapidly in such a shortperiod of time Like, I often say
that this is a maybe 10 yearold problem, but really it's a
five-year-old problem and, like,if you don't have kids that
(06:04):
were school age in the last fiveto 10 years, it's not at all
the same.
And I'll even joke to parentslike I actually would love if my
kid had access to 2011Instagram.
That would be fine, I mean, no,it wouldn't.
But, like, I would be so muchmore okay with that because it
is so fundamentally differenttoday, so fundamentally
different today.
So I think that's a reallyreally good point.
(06:25):
That is like, did we miss theboat?
And I'm an eternal optimist.
So I think the answer is no.
It's never too late.
And I think what we're hearinga lot from like Gen Z now is you
guys set us up with some prettybad stuff and we're paying the
price and we're mad about it.
So you know, I think thatgroundswell is going to help,
(06:48):
and I also just point to thefact that adults are so terrible
at our own use of managingsocial media screens.
Whatever that, we're startingto realize the impact it's
having on our lives, Right?
So it's sort of, as you pointout, touches everyone, whether
we want to admit it or not.
Chris Colley (07:02):
Yeah, Right, right .
And do you think, like lookingat these patterns?
I mean, if we look atgenerational use?
I mean, obviously we're, we'relooking at technology towards
now, but parents have beenparents for forever and and and
had kids that that you know werecurious about things and want
(07:22):
to discover and didn't want tolisten there.
Like those relationshipshaven't changed all that much,
or have they as generations?
Like, is it the older thegeneration the less likely that
that screens will be affecting?
Or or the technology?
Like, will you have 70 yearolds like on screen for 12 hours
(07:45):
a day?
Emily Cherkin (07:46):
or like that's a good question.
Chris Colley (07:49):
Has generations been affected by this in
different ways?
Emily Cherkin (07:53):
Yes is a short answer and I think it's really
interesting because you're, ifwe think about grandparents for
a moment, you know, and I heartwo very different challenges
with grandparenting in thedigital age.
One is grandparents who arehorrified by how much time their
grandchildren are on devices,and the other is how many
parents are concerned becausetheir parents, the grandparents,
(08:14):
are giving the tech to thegrandkids because that's what
they see everybody doing.
So it's it tends to sort of gointo those extremes.
Um, yeah, that's a really goodquestion.
I do think there are general.
I'm Gen X pretty solidly and Ithink my millennial parent
friends and colleagues do have aslightly different view than I
do, because I remember an analogchildhood.
(08:37):
I I, I mean Gen X is kind ofthat last generation of really,
you know, running around theneighborhood and coming in when
the lights came on and, like youknow, sort of free play that
had really changed, and I knowyou had Lenore Skenazy on your
podcast as well she talks a lotabout that fear-based parenting
that led a lot of sort of lateGen X, millennial parenting into
(09:02):
this, like fear-based mindsetthat you know kept kids indoors
more.
So it's easy to blame screens,as like the problem, but it's
just one of many and I thinkthere are some parenting
cultural shifts, such asfear-based parenting, that have
really exacerbated the problem.
Chris Colley (09:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
I often talk like I work withpreschool teachers and getting
them to understand play and freeplay, particularly with our
pre-service teachers or teachersthat are just coming into the
profession.
They struggle with that and I'mlike I'm so curious all the
time.
So my first question to them isalways is how did you play when
(09:43):
you were young?
You know, like when you weregrowing up, what was your play
like?
And a lot of them you know itwas very, again screen oriented
and I'm talking about you know,newer teachers coming in around
in their early 20s, that we'velost connection with this play,
and Lenore talks about it sonicely in her book and the
(10:04):
podcast as well.
I know that the stranger dangeris there Two parents working
all the time.
There's less green space.
There's more of this unknown.
In your opinion, what broughtall this about?
Is there traces that we cantrace to?
Where this?
(10:24):
Can you?
Can you elaborate on that a bit?
Emily Cherkin (10:27):
Because I find it fascinating.
I do too.
Chris Colley (10:29):
Going on so quickly.
Emily Cherkin (10:31):
Yes, I do too, and I write about this in the
book, and Lenore's work hascertainly influenced my thinking
on this as well.
One of the things that I thinkreally changed for parents is
our increased consumption of24-7 media, and, you know, now
it's 24-7.
Maybe 20 years ago it was justall-day news, right, but even
(10:52):
the 24-hour news channel thingwas becoming.
You know, we were just it usedto be.
You get the news once a day,you know, it might be even in a
paper, right, and there was nolike interaction and comment
section and all of this.
It's just so different and so Athat's part of it.
The other problem is, of course, the business model of tech
relies on engagement and clicksand eyeballs, and so in order to
(11:13):
get us to engage more in these24-7 news cycles, which are
really boring if you don't havesensationalized stories, they
had to sensationalize thestories or only highlight the
sensational stories as aresult, we, as a parenting
generation were like oh my gosh,the world is so dangerous, oh
my gosh, kids are gettingkidnapped left and right.
But and this is what I I reallytalk about this in is a
(11:37):
dichotomy between what is scaryand what is dangerous, and Pew
Research found in America thatthe top three parenting fears
are number one is kidnapping,number two is youth mental
health and number three iscyberbullying.
And, as Sesame Street used tosay, one of these things is not
(11:58):
like the other, because it isshocking to see kidnapping as
the number one fear, and here'swhy it's because of our own
fear-based news, clickbaitheadlines.
We think it's a problem.
But the irony is parents'response to that is I need to
give my kid a phone to keep themsafe.
(12:20):
If my kid has a phone and theyGod forbid get kidnapped, I
could call them, I could tracethem, whatever.
But if you give your child aphone, what do you do?
You make number two and threeyouth mental health and cyber
bullying way worse automatically.
And so I understand theintention and in fact, I think
Lenore has.
Oh my goodness, let's cut thatpart, sorry, no problem.
(12:44):
I think Lenore in her book.
She writes about the risk ofkidnapping and there's a
statistic I love to talk aboutright, which is if you wanted
your child to be kidnapped,you'd have to put them on the
street corner every day for750,000 years to be guaranteed
of being kidnapped, which is-.
Chris Colley (13:02):
And this is number one, number one fear, number
one.
Emily Cherkin (13:05):
So a lot of the conversations I have with
parents and in the work I do isto really help bring parents
awareness to worry about theright thing that your kid's not
going to get kidnapped, but yourkid is going to experience harm
in social media.
It's not a matter of if it's aquestion of when, and so helping
them worry about or address theproblem that they can actually
(13:27):
do something about right.
And that's hard, I mean I havea lot of empathy for parents.
It is scary, it feels scary butit isn't dangerous.
Chris Colley (13:37):
Right, right.
Yeah, it's similar to like inpreschool teachers not wanting
kids to do risky play.
Yet that's how they build whothey are as humans.
Like, if you're not going tolet them take chances, you think
they're going to take chanceswhen they're older.
Emily Cherkin (13:52):
Never.
Chris Colley (13:53):
I love the reference.
You turned helicopter parentsinto snowplow parents as time
has changed and I totally thatwas like yes.
Emily Cherkin (14:06):
Yeah, and I didn't come up with that, but it
was an aha moment for me when Iheard that like this idea that
now, parents, we go ahead andmow away obstacles, you know, to
give kids a clear path, and yetwhat they really need is a
bumpy road.
They need that opportunity tomess up in preschool in a safe
environment, right when theteachers are there to help guide
(14:27):
them.
And when we take that away, itdoesn't shock me at all that
mental health is in a crisis,you know for youth?
Chris Colley (14:34):
Absolutely, yeah, oh, totally, and I guess I had a
question about that is that doyou think that?
What skills in particular doyou find that are being left in
the history dustbin that we justaren't, yeah, we aren't
achieving anymore and thisgeneration will feel it once
they hit yes, you know of age?
(14:55):
Um, yeah, what are some ofthose really valuable skills
that they that have to happen?
Emily Cherkin (15:00):
yes, absolutely great questionration.
Tolerance is a huge one.
You know, the ability to sitwith something that's
uncomfortable or scary ordifficult, I think, which the
flip side of that would beperseverance, right, the ability
to get through something andknow you are capable, right?
I think again, certainlyparents overprotect in the real
(15:23):
world and underprotect online,which is Jonathan Haidt's line,
but so that's a big one.
I think also, again,inadvertently, parents are
undermining children'sconfidence in their own skill
set when they rescue, protect,save, prevent.
You know hover, whatever wordyou want to use, you know hover,
(15:47):
whatever word you want to use.
And parents can make somedifferent choices about letting
their kids have these moments ofstruggle and see that as a gift
.
In fact, I often will say toparents what gift are you giving
your children when you providethem those experiences, or when
you delay the screen or when yousay no?
And I think this is all tied in.
But parents are afraid to sayno about the screen.
You know they're going to bejudged by their peers or
(16:08):
everyone else.
Quote unquote has it Right?
So I do.
I say to parents it's not yourfault, but it is your
responsibility, you know, and itis time to step into that
authoritative parenting, notauthority, big difference.
But you know, we need to say noand we need to tell our kids.
I know it's hard and I believein your ability to do it,
(16:32):
because that's what our kidsneed to hear so that they can
practice.
You know perseverance and andfrustration, tolerance and
boredom oh my gosh, boredom is asoul that we have to you.
Chris Colley (16:43):
You know it's a muscle we have to flex right
like exactly like what am Igoing to do with on my screen?
I'm going to be bored.
Oh, I'm not going to be able tofollow up all the other kids.
Like it's such a pressure fromyour kids too, and you always,
like, you want to please yourkids.
Yeah, as teachers want toplease their students.
Like I see the parallel natureof it happening.
Yes, that we want them to be youknow and I can help you with
(17:07):
all your problems.
And don't worry, I'll be therefor you if you struggle.
Emily Cherkin (17:11):
And instead of letting struggle happen and
developing resilience and stufflike that, yeah, and I was just
going to add that friction is soimportant here, right, and I
have a post on my screen thatsays learning happens in moments
of friction and that can be inthe classroom or at home.
We have to let our children hitthose bumps in the road so they
(17:35):
know we can guide them, we canmodel, we can give examples, we
can ask if they want help.
But when we solve it for them,we take away the opportunity to
learn something.
And that is where we see thatlonger term problem.
You know the mental health,insecurity, lack of confidence
coming out.
Chris Colley (17:51):
Absolutely Well and I think our systems are
designed that way to look forerror and look at them
negatively instead of learningopportunities.
And you see that with parentsand with teachers, right, this
kind of taking away any kind ofidea that mistakes are important
, that they help me and informme and make me grow.
Emily Cherkin (18:14):
And I see that also in the form of platforms
like surveillance technology,which catches, quote, unquote
kids making mistakes and reportsit to parents or schools and
says your kid typed this or yourkid searched up that.
And again I mean I'm sorry, butsurveillance erodes trust and
trust is the foundation of ahealthy society, right, like a
(18:36):
healthy family, of a healthyschool.
And so I see a lot of red flagswith that Again the misguided
preying on people parent fearthat but not actually thinking
about what's dangerous.
What's dangerous is not lettingchildren build the skills so
that they can thrive, so thatthey can trust others.
(18:56):
Right, that, to me, is reallyimportant.
Chris Colley (19:00):
Yeah, and one of your quotes which I really love,
kind of how can we turn thisconversation around to see it in
a positive light, that we canempower ourselves and I'm not
sure if you said it, but youreference it, call it saying
replace judgment with curiosity,have to judge about it because
(19:25):
we're all kind of doing it,we're in the same boat together,
but how can we re jig theconversation around and how we
talk to our kids or our studentsabout screen time so that
they're not feeling like, oh,I'm doing something wrong, but
you're just, we need to get moreinformed about stuff?
Could you, could you elaborateon that quote, cause I just love
it.
Emily Cherkin (19:43):
I do too.
It's not's not mine, and Ialways open my talks with this
story because I loved that too.
And I joke that I first heardit when I took a mindfulness
class with my husband when wewere newly married and I had
time to take mindfulness classesbecause we didn't have kids yet
.
But I heard that and I thought,oh my gosh, it's all about the
(20:04):
reframe.
I feel like when we're injudgment, we are defensive or
other people feel defensive, butif you reframe it as curiosity,
it disarms that stressintention, and so one of the
ways I see that playing out withparents in screen time, for
example, is you know, if, forexample, you say to your child,
(20:26):
you're always on your phone, Ican't believe it.
You're so rude.
You know the things that we allhave said and say and instead
say I wonder why it's so hardfor you to put your phone down.
Or I forgot to teach you thisis one of my favorites I forgot
to teach you that when we go torestaurants, it's rude to look
at your phone and you have tomake eye contact with a waiter
when you order.
I forgot to teach you that.
(20:47):
So again, that shift in how wesay it, just that little again.
If our goal as parents is toteach, which I believe it is we
are our children's firstteachers then that is part of
the process.
Is we say oh, oh, my gosh, Ineed to teach you this skill,
like it didn't occur to me thatI hadn't Right?
(21:09):
I just think again like itallows us to just de-escalate
the conflict and stress around atopic that is so fraught.
Chris Colley (21:18):
Absolutely.
And another really cool tipthat you had given out was
living out loud or saying youruse.
You know like, ok, I'm going tocheck my phone now, I've got to
look at some emails, I have areally important one coming in
or whatever it might be, butyou're verbalizing that usage
and I thought that that was justa great trick to you know, get
(21:41):
people aware of the amount ofuse they might be having,
because not everybody looks atscreen time use or wants to for
(22:06):
using it with technology,because it's that accountability
piece and it's that increasingour own awareness of our use and
getting to teach our childrenabout how we use tech or how
tech uses us right.
Emily Cherkin (22:14):
So, that is the starting point, and it is
important to note that I tellparents to do this, not children
.
It starts with the adult rightand the hope is that kids will,
then, well, they're going toroll their eyes, which they
should and they will.
Chris Colley (22:31):
But that means they're listening Exactly.
Emily Cherkin (22:33):
Exactly.
Chris Colley (22:34):
Something's sunk in there and they're like
thinking it's churning Exactly.
Emily Cherkin (22:38):
Yeah, and eventually we want to see them
doing it too.
You know, and that's whereagain we can do that reframe.
We can say, you know, my sonmight hear his phone making a
notification and he'll say, oh,I'm going to go reach for my
phone and check what that wasand I'll say thank you for
living your life out loud, Right.
So I'm naming it because I wantthat attention to that behavior
to continue.
(22:59):
Like I want him to say thatagain.
So I get to name it and give itthat positive reinforcement,
because again we're so quick tocriticize, judge, blame, get mad
.
But where attention goes,energy flows right.
Like we want them to hear thepositive things, what we want to
see more of, not what we wantless of.
Chris Colley (23:19):
Yeah absolutely Absolutely.
And I think.
One last thing that we'll we'llend on here again there were so
many aha moments when I wasgoing through some of the other
podcasts that you've been a partof in your book as well.
Um, that a simple thing liketurning your notifications off
can help reduce so much anxiety.
(23:42):
What am I missing?
Focus a little bit more, and itseems like such an easy thing
to do, but would have reallygood outcomes.
Emily Cherkin (23:51):
Yeah, net benefit right away?
Yeah, absolutely.
It's one thing.
I've had my notifications offfor years.
I never miss text messagesbecause the reality is my
phone's always nearby or it's onmy computer, you know, and
thankfully there's things likeyou know you can put do not
disturb, and that's a slightimprovement, right, but yeah,
you know again any if we'reletting this device interfere
(24:13):
and actually I quote my husbandhere he's like letting someone
who's not even in the room textyou like while you're in the
middle of talking to your childis giving permission to that
person to interrupt you And'renot even physically there you
know, it's a pretty shockingthing to think about it if you
you know it is how do they havethat much power over us?
You know?
Chris Colley (24:34):
and it's like the urgency, like it's like I see it
in workshops sometimes too likeI'll know, like, oh, they just
got a notification.
They start to get antsy andthen they'll get up and walk out
, you know, to go, and I'm likewe're in the middle of something
here, like and these are likeeducators tolerance too, or the
boredom even, like you know,knowing that you can trust
(24:56):
yourself to survive 40 minuteswithout looking at your phone.
Emily Cherkin (25:00):
Like what would that?
Chris Colley (25:02):
be like.
Emily Cherkin (25:02):
I wonder if that's even the opening question
is what would it feel likeright now if I asked you to turn
your phones off and put them inthe other room and you have to
like?
How does that make you feelwhen you think about it?
Right, because I'm guessing alot of people are going to say,
oh, I get all panicky or anxious.
Chris Colley (25:17):
Oh for sure, I think they were right.
Refuse, no, no, my daughter'sgoing to contact me.
Or oh, the dentist is calling.
I got to.
I mean, think 10 years ago,what did you do?
That's it.
And then the reframe.
Emily Cherkin (25:33):
Yeah, right, and the reframe of what gift might
you be giving yourself to not beavailable 24-7, to have to
delay gratification or response,Like what is really the worst
thing that could happen.
I mean, yes, I know I'm goingto get a list, but it's also
really good to model that rightthat our kids don't need to
respond right away, just like wedon't need to, that's it.
Chris Colley (25:56):
Well, I have to think about replace judgment
with curiosity when we're having.
I was thinking too, like at thestart of a workshop, like can
everybody just silence theirphone or put it in a box?
That's a door, because it doeseat into time and and the
distraction is continuouslythere.
Emily Cherkin (26:14):
Um, well, maybe start with that story and ask
the as a question.
What would it feel like?
I'm curious yeah and do youthink you can challenge yourself
Right, I'm into that Cool.
Chris Colley (26:32):
Well, Emily, this has been fantastic.
It's such a great, amazingtopic and your words and insight
is so valuable for thelisteners, so thank you for
taking some time out.
I appreciate your time.
People Screen time solution Goget it.
Emily Cherkin (26:49):
Read it.
Chris Colley (26:50):
Ask your kids questions, remember, replace
judgment with curiosity and turnthe future around a little bit.
Yes, we need it.
Emily Cherkin (27:00):
We're going to do it.
We are Thank you for having me.
Chris Colley (27:03):
Thanks, emily, my pleasure Great, eat it.
We're gonna do it, we are thankyou for having me thanks emily.
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Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.