April 1, 2025 • 33 mins
Valéry Psyché takes us on a fascinating journey from her physics studies in France to becoming a pioneering researcher and educator in AI education at TELUS University in Quebec. This conversation reveals the complex layers of distance learning design, where teams of experts collaborate to create engaging online learning environments that keep students motivated despite physical and temporal separation.
Behind the scenes of asynchronous online education, we discover a meticulous process involving linguistic experts, graphic designers, programmers, and rights specialists who transform simple courses into comprehensive digital experiences. Psyché shares practical engagement strategies - from expert interview videos to reflection journals and interactive activities - all carefully crafted to maintain student attention and facilitate meaningful learning without real-time instruction.
The democratization of generative AI has forced a significant educational pivot. As students increasingly leverage AI tools for assignments, institutions are developing new assessment approaches focused on personalized, experience-based learning that AI can't easily simulate. Psyché's research exemplifies this adaptation through tools like Ecopia AI, which provides structured AI guidance for teachers designing lessons, and specialized chatbots that function as learning companions rather than simple question-answering systems.
Looking ahead, Psyché envisions AI systems that adapt to individual learning needs - generating visualizations for complex concepts, creating frameworks for students with special needs, and adjusting difficulty levels based on identified misunderstandings. The ultimate challenge isn't just developing sophisticated AI tools but teaching students to use these technologies to enhance genuine learning rather than bypass it. Are you ready to embrace this educational transformation? Join the conversation about how AI is reshaping our approach to teaching and learning.
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Episode Transcript
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Chris Colley (00:13):
We're here at ShiftED podcast, I'm reaching to
a fellow Montrealer from TELUQUniversity, which is our online
university here in Quebec, andValérie Pichet is an expert in
AI and teaching and learning,and we're going to ask her some
(00:39):
questions today about thetransformation of our schools
with AI.
It's been happening a lot.
So, Valéry, merci, thank youfor joining me today.
I hope you're doing well.
Valéry Psyché (00:54):
Yeah, thank you so much for inviting me and yes,
I'm doing pretty well actually.
Chris Colley (01:01):
Excellent, but we'll go nice and slow and have
a cool conversation.
Before we start, valerie, I'dlike to ask the guest, kind of
just as an introduction, whatwere some key moments that
brought you to where you arehere today.
In education, what were someschools you went to or people
you met or experiences you hadthat helped you get to where you
(01:25):
are here today?
Valéry Psyché (01:26):
yeah, that's a very good question.
Actually, that's uh, there'ssome very important key moments
in my, in my life, the, forexample.
I can just talk about some ofthem.
Uh, I started my study in thein in France, in Grenoble.
I was doing the equivalentdiploma of a bachelor and a
(01:50):
master.
And then there was thispossibility to go to Quebec to
have just an exchange, studentexchange for six months and to
study at Université Montreal forthis time, to learn a bit how
you guys teach and to have somecourses in international context
(02:15):
.
And then I decided to staythere and to continue my study
in Quebec because I enjoy thepeople, the life.
And then I was doing at thistime I was studying physics,
which is very far from education, but after my so I did another
(02:36):
master and then I decided that Iwanted to do a PhD.
But I wanted to change myorientation and there was this
new program it's about computercognitive informatics at
University of Quebec, which isartificial intelligence joined
(03:01):
with cognitive science, and soit was very interesting program,
very uh, innovate, aninnovation in a innovative
program actually and uh, Idecided to, to jump in this and
I never regret.
So I had uh, two directors, soone in computer science and
(03:22):
another one I chose in education.
So that's where I started to uh, to uh.
You know, like uh study, notstudy at pages, more like
research actually.
Um, but we have a couple ofcourses to have to align our
knowledge because we had to beuh uh aware, not not only about
(03:43):
computer science if we're comingfrom computer or technical
science but we have to be awareabout what was the main concern
of people from humanities.
So it was very, veryinteresting.
And then I started to beinterested in everything that
(04:05):
was based on AI in education andtechnology, enhanced learning
and all that stuff.
So yeah, that was a shift in mycareer in my career, my career.
I never changed.
(04:25):
And I was my co-directorco-supervisor was in TELUC, so
that's where I discover distancelearning as well.
Chris Colley (04:41):
And your experience with distance
learning.
How do you find it differentfrom classroom teaching Like?
What are some of the maindifferences that you experience
when you're preparing a classfor online versus, maybe,
preparing a workshop for a livein person or doing a lecture?
What do you find the bigdifferences?
Valéry Psyché (05:01):
It's quite very different and, to tell you the
truth, for many years I couldn'tconceptualize teaching or
learning without thinking aboutdistance learning.
So it took me a while toexplain more to people who are
(05:26):
doing just teaching in presencewhat were the differences.
But there are quite some bigdifferences.
For example, for us especially,what we're doing is
asynchronous distance learning,which means that we don't do
(05:47):
synchronous, we don't do like awebinar to teach our students.
So all the material has to beprepared in advance and it has
to be prepared in a way thatwill be engaging and motivating
for the students, because theywill be alone when they will be
doing the following their course.
(06:08):
So it means for us a lot ofpreparation.
So doing a teaching for us it'sdoing learning design, and
after that, when the learningdesign is done, so we implement
it in a platform, an onlineplatform, and then we do the
(06:35):
same thing as people do in theclassroom.
So we evaluate the student, weanswer their question and all
that stuff.
We supervise them.
But this part of learningdesign, for us it takes like a
team.
This is how we do it in TELUX.
So we need, for example I willwrite all the instructions very
(06:59):
clearly we have to think aboutstrategy, pedagogical strategy.
It's very important, as well asthe activity that we choose, to
maintain the student motivated,but as well to capture his
attention and to be sure that hewill gain some learning.
(07:23):
And when we finish that,usually we produce a very big
documents could be like 100 or100 or 100 or 200 sometimes
documents, and with all theresources.
Of course, all the resourceshave to be validated, which is
very important when you're doingdistance learning in the way we
(07:45):
do it, because we cannotviolate any rights.
So we have to have the list ofall the resources of the course
and we have a team who just dothat full-time validate that we
are okay for the rights that weuse in the course.
We are okay for the rights thatwe use in the course, you know,
and as well.
(08:06):
But we need to have somebody, alinguistic expert, because we
cannot put nothing that havebeen well written, because
everything is on the web, it'son the platform, so, and we have
graphic, a graphic designer anda programmer that programmed
the.
All it's so one course, it's a.
It's like a that programmed allit's so one course it's a.
(08:26):
It's like, uh, it's, it's alearning environment.
It's just uh, yeah, so that'sthe way we do it yeah, and do
you guys work with moodles atall?
Chris Colley (08:39):
like I was first introduced to that moodle idea
last year and we built a coursearound it.
And you're very right about theengagement part, like keeping
it so that the students don'tget bored or like, oh you know,
start looking at their phone orwhatever else how?
And I always kept asking, likepeople that had built Moodles
(08:59):
before, you know, like onlinecourses where you just yourself
pace, it's asynchronous and youhave certain chapters you go
through and you do certainactivities, and I kept asking
what makes online courses themost engaging for kids?
Is that a fair question?
How do you design your course?
Because I know that you have tothink about that design a lot
(09:23):
when you're creating thesecourses.
How do you bring engagement inwhen the students aren't with
you and then also not doing itat the same time?
They're all kind of doing it attheir own levels.
Valéry Psyché (09:36):
How do you?
Chris Colley (09:36):
create that in your course.
Valéry Psyché (09:39):
We have different strategies.
For example, we have a studioactually, so we can't make some
video, so we have a team to helpus to that.
So we prepare some video.
We are split some concepts sothe student can see us, that he
can replay the video they wantedto.
And we use as well, for example, some in a notice strategy that
(10:04):
I use.
Sometimes I invite some expertsand I ask them to answer some
questions.
So we film them so the studentcan have access of high quality
experts explaining some concepts.
I use that a lot, explainingsome concepts.
I use that a lot and as well,interactive activity.
(10:28):
But we have to be very carefulbecause we are very aware of
using inclusive access foreverybody.
So what we do is we have torespect the WCAG, which is the
web guidance guideline for theaccessibility.
(10:51):
So that means that sometimessome of the interactive
exercises that we want to usehave to be compatible with that.
So we have some constraintssometimes based on that.
Yeah, exactly, so this is astrategy we use, yeah great
(11:13):
ideas.
Yeah, we change the media so notto just text, video, audio and
all that stuff to keep themengaged.
Chris Colley (11:21):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's cool.
That's what we did.
We just tried different kindsof media and different kinds of
small tasks.
We made everything pretty shorttoo, so it never felt like it
was going on and on forever.
Valéry Psyché (11:37):
No, that's something that we use a lot.
It's a broad journal so theycan have questions for
reflection that they have tofill in their journal and then
they do need.
So we have different questionsthat we ask them to answer and
(11:58):
it helps them to write theiressay.
They have something to submitfor evaluation.
And the last thing that we usea lot we usually have a blog
associated with the course butwe notice that students
sometimes they are shy tointeract in the blog because
they commit themselves.
(12:20):
You know they have to sometimespresent themselves or talk
about some subject and they arelike, maybe shy.
So we encourage them.
They have some bonus forparticipating and we encourage
them to comment the text thatall the students write.
(12:40):
So there are some interactionin the course event.
It's a very flexible approachthat we have in the way we do
distance learning.
A student, for example, canstart whenever he wants, but
doing this kind of stuff, atleast it's connected with all
(13:02):
the students, even if they arenot in the same step of the
course.
There's always been somebody.
Actually there will always besomebody that is starting at
maybe pretty around the sametime.
Chris Colley (13:18):
So yeah, right, right, interesting.
And then AI comes into thepicture.
Valéry Psyché (13:24):
Yeah.
Chris Colley (13:26):
How is that helped or not helped in designing and
building your lessons andinteracting with your students?
Can you give me a couple ofexamples of where it really
helps you a lot and helps savetime, and maybe one or so where
it doesn't help so much?
Valéry Psyché (13:47):
yeah, it's a tricky question because, of
course, yeah, that's who does agood point there's some
disadvantage, but, um, actually,uh, we are facing a lot of
efforts uh to to review ourcourses because of generative AI
(14:08):
, because it's been democratizedalmost two years ago, more than
two years ago, in November 2022.
Learners have access to thiskind of tools and they use it a
lot to generate content to helpthem to write their essay, their
(14:33):
summative activities.
So this is a problem, a problemof intellectual integrity and
plagiarism plagiarism.
So, um, actually, we have, wehave to review the way we ask
them those questions to makemore personalized uh, make them
to uh doing like, for example,more like, uh, what we call um
(14:56):
experience, experiential uhlearning, like called theory
about.
So they have to tocontextualize their the answer
based on their experience and,uh, this kind of stuff can't
help.
Or we, we, we have a we have tochange the way, the strategy,
the way we, we uh inquire them,their knowledge, uh, in order to
(15:21):
avoid the plagiarism.
So it's a lot.
It's really demanding for theprofessor team because they, you
know, like you have to reviewall your courses, change the
question, change the strategies,and but fortunately, we have
help from technological experts,techno-pedagogical experts that
(15:49):
we have at TELUK, who help themwith that.
Put in place some strategy, forexample, even give them
information about how to use AI,what they can do, what they
cannot do.
You know like to come back,because sometimes they will use
it not knowing what they can dowhat they cannot do.
You know like to come backBecause sometimes they will use
it not knowing what they can dowhat they cannot do, but if the
(16:11):
rules are more clear.
The clearer it is, the better itis for everybody.
So we start to see, in all theuniversities actually even the
ones which are not doing thedistance learning, they start to
put some some framework aboutthe, the, the acceptable use of
(16:31):
AI or what is not acceptable.
So, yeah, I cannot say that itwill help me.
It could help me actually, butI don't use it a lot like this.
But I know some teachers willuse it to help them doing a
(16:54):
planning of their teaching or tobe inspired with some ideas,
and that's what gives me theideas of developing a research.
I develop actually a tool thatis called Ecopadia and this tool
(17:16):
has an instructional design, alearning design scenario
implemented with AI assistedscenario implemented and with AI
assisted.
So the teacher who don't knowto be followed to do this
(17:39):
planning, he could use this tool, for example, to write a
scenario with planning.
Planning is a teaching lesson,so it's very useful.
We use it and we test a lotwith different contexts,
actually in Quebec and as wellin the West Indies, to see how
(18:03):
it can be used in differentcontexts, and we implemented
some prompt to help.
So we have nine or ten promptsimplemented, so we control the
prompt.
So that's why the teacher don'tneed to write a prompt, because
it's a challenge for them,right?
So you know, like a promptingeducation, it's something new, a
(18:24):
challenge for them, right to uhyou know, like a printing, it's
something new.
Not everybody knows how to do itand uh, so we um and they can.
After that they can do in afollow-up.
So they can.
There's a prompt implementedfor each part, for example, uh,
the part when they have todescribe the general information
or the pedagogical informationor the learning objectives or
(18:46):
all that stuff.
So there are different programsand if they are not satisfied
with the answer, they can make afollow-up inside the tools.
So this is one tool that couldbe helpful for teachers to help
them to build their teachingcourses.
I have done research which ismore like oriented to the
(19:09):
learner, so we implemented thechatbot in a MOOC.
So MOOC it's distance learningcourses, but they are not
credited, so there's nosupervision.
There's no um supervision ofteacher in the MOOC.
So the MOOC is free but it'snot credited.
(19:33):
So the people, they registerand they have to follow the, the
, the activities by themselves,but they don't have nobody to
talk to if they have a problemor they are they question.
At the beginning we had someforum, but when we stopped
moderating the forum because ittakes a lot of resources to
moderate the forum for morepeople to have thousands of
(19:56):
people, we realized that it wasnot possible to moderate anymore
the forum and when we stoppedthat, so there was no more
interaction, even between twoteachers, two learners, for
example, I would say.
So what we did, we added, wetested chatbots, ai chatbots,
(20:18):
but, as you know, chatbotssometimes they give false
information, so it's not veryuseful for students.
So what we did?
We integrated some technologyinside to control the way he
behaves and to control the wayhe answers.
So there's a different way todo that and we have tested.
Chris Colley (20:41):
So that's a personalized tutor, basically
what you were building.
Valéry Psyché (20:46):
So if a student felt they weren't getting it,
they could ask more questions,yeah yeah, yeah, I see it like
more a learning companion,because a tutor, intelligent
tutor yes, sometimes they callit.
People associate charge GPT asa tutor, but it's not an
intelligent tutor.
If you know about thetechnology of intelligent
(21:10):
tutoring system, you willunderstand that chat GPT is far
from an intelligent tutor.
Intelligent tutor it's anenvironment that can give
feedback, yes, for the student,like Chatbot will do, but they
will do it with the knowledge ofthe learner.
(21:39):
So that means that they've beenprogramming the way to follow
step-by-step what the learner isdoing and adapt itself, not
just to the interaction, theconversational part, but as well
other parts, for example,change strategy, pedagogical
(22:02):
strategy based off cognitivediagnostic of what the student
is doing.
For example, they will adapt,showing different contents based
on an error that the studentwill do.
So it's really more adaptivethat chat GPT can do.
(22:25):
Chat GPT is really dialogue andwe try to make it more like a
tutoring system, like we'redoing, like, for example, we had
a technology called the RACwhich is a multi-generation
technology which allows us tofeed the chatbot with the
knowledge, with the knowledge,the domain knowledge, like we do
(22:48):
in the intelligent tutoringsystem.
So we feed him with okay, youhave to know all of that, to
answer well to the student,instead of choosing some
information out of the way, soyou orient it towards the source
knowledge, rather than it goingand picking wherever its model
(23:09):
is Exactly.
And, as well, we tell him how tobehave as well.
So that's true that it'sanother part that we do in the
intelligent storytelling system.
It's tutorial expertise.
So we tell him how to behave.
To do that, we will implementsome pre-programmed prompts to
(23:31):
tell him what is his role, forexample, and how he has to
behave with the student.
And if the student did that orthat, this is the way he has to
behave.
So maybe one day we will havesome kind of intelligent
tutorial based on generative AI.
(23:52):
The missing part is more likethe learner's model.
So actually, for the moment, wedon't really have a learner's
model.
So actually, for the moment, wedon't really have a learner's
model.
We don't know what.
We don't register the good, thegood points, the bad points,
(24:15):
the good, you know the error,the misunderstanding, all that
part.
And Chatbot doesn't react basedon this misunderstanding for
the moment.
But it will come for sure.
I have no doubt about that.
Right right.
Yeah.
Chris Colley (24:32):
Somebody told me too, valerie, that that's the
power of AI to come, that withwhatever is being inputted, it
can give you some suggestionsback.
For example, you know I had ahistory course.
I was confused.
You go into the chatbot to tryto clarify and then the chatbot
will tell the teacher aboutwhere the misconceptions were,
(24:55):
so that the teacher can adjusthis or her teachings based on
the information that thestudent's feeding into the
chatbot or the query that theyput in.
Is that something that TELUS islooking to as well, so that the
teachers can get some of thatinformation to help inform where
(25:17):
the students are getting theinfo and where there's
misconceptions or they don'thave an understanding of it?
Is that coming down the road,you think?
Valéry Psyché (25:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that could be if we For the
moment, yes, so the way it works, it's like if we register, if
we keep, we stock all theinformation, the interaction, so
we call it educational datalearning analytics.
So if we make some learninganalytics based on the
(25:50):
interaction, the trace thatstudents keep in the system, we
can effectively improve thecorrect misunderstanding of the
learners and, as well, improvethe learning design of the
(26:14):
course.
So the next, we can improve theteach for sure.
But we have to do this.
We have to do the learninganalytics part and it's with
some questions, some challenge,because some institutions they
are very, you know, they don'tfeel like they.
(26:37):
There are some issues aboutprivacy and data privacy,
confidentiality of student data.
So not all the institutions areat the same level of reflection
based on that.
But it would be very helpful ifwe are more like a standardized
way to analyze data and to usethem to improve the course.
(27:05):
That's why you have moreinformation to overcome dropout
and all that stuff.
Chris Colley (27:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
All that information is sohelpful If it's there too and
you can have access.
But, like you said, privacyissues are still kind kind of
and we're kind of in the youthsector as well, so there's age
limits on who can have accessand who can't.
Where do you see this AI?
Going down the road, like ifyou had a magic ball that you
(27:39):
could look through.
Where do you think we're headedwith AI in education?
Oh, there's through.
Where do you think we're headedwith AI?
Valéry Psyché (27:44):
in education.
Oh, I'm going research sincemany, many years.
Ai in education is not new AIeducation.
There's a society,international society, very
active in research, and sothere's different orientations.
(28:08):
I just evaluated some articlesyesterday for one of the
conferences.
There were, for example, peoplewho are interested in how to
use AI to generate, for example,this diagram to help in
(28:30):
mathematics, for example, totranslate some situation, so a
mathematic situation, andexercise, and make some
visualisation to help thestudent understand some concept,
for example.
Other example would be like howcan AI can help with, maybe
(29:06):
have some framework to coverthis kind of special needs, with
some tools that can be used togenerate some activities that
are more helpful for people withspecial needs, more helpful for
(29:29):
people with special needs.
Um, another example that I had,um yeah, so I don't have all in
my life.
I have uh, but but anyway.
So that's kind of example Ilike your differentiation,
though.
Chris Colley (29:34):
I think that I think that that whole um thing
that we have within education,where kids are all learning at
different levels.
It seems like AI can kind oflevel that playing field a
little bit, where you can adjustcertain things for certain
students, but they're all stilllearning the same stuff.
Valéry Psyché (29:53):
Yeah, it's what we call the adaptive learning,
so the tools adapt to the need,to the different needs.
So usually this is what we cando with artificial intelligence
in education to build some kindof system that, based on the
(30:13):
misunderstanding of the student,can provide different kind of
exercise or a different path aswell.
So maybe the rhythm is tooquick, so to make it more slow,
or to show a lesson that whenit's needed, because it isn't a
(30:35):
concept, or to give an exercisethat is more like the same kind
of exercise, same level, butwith another example, another
explanation, another way toabout this concept so that the
student could understand, or tomake it more contextualized,
(30:56):
based on where the person comesfrom, what we call a contextual
system or system sensible to thecontext or the culture, for
example.
So, yep, so there are someactually different, a lot of
(31:16):
things going on with the AI andthat community, actually
different, for example, toolsthat have been developed,
architecture as well thatexploits, exploits, neural
network or large language models, and to it's, it's.
(31:37):
It's a lot of tools that couldbe useful for teachers, for
learners as well, different kindof public, great, yeah.
So I think there's another shift, I think it's an educational
shift.
I think with AI generative AIthat will come.
We will see that there's ashift like we cannot teach the
(31:59):
same way, shift like we, wecannot teach the same way.
And there's a over hyper use ofAI by the student and the way
you use it, sometimes they willlose knowledge or not acquire
some competencies.
So there will be it's we are,there's a shift going on that I
(32:27):
think that that will addressmore like integrated generative
AI in the teaching.
That means to show the studenthow to use it well, to make to
learn things or to make exerciseto, instead of don't let them
(32:50):
use it and they will just copypast and don't learn anything.
Chris Colley (32:55):
so, yeah, exactly getting the students to know
what it's all about.
Super important.
Um Well, valerie, this has beenfascinating.
Such great insight.
I love your examples that youoffered, too, and the future
does look bright.
I mean, there's a lot of stuffhappening and, like you said,
there's a big shift going onright now, but I think people
(33:17):
like yourself have done researchand thought about this and
you're making us all a lotsmarter.
So thanks for sharing some ofyour insight today.
Valéry Psyché (33:25):
My pleasure.
Chris Colley (33:27):
It was great talking to you and have yourself
a great day.
Valéry Psyché (33:30):
Thank you, Chris.
Bye-bye.
Chris Colley (33:34):
Bye-bye.
We're here at ShiftED podcast, I'm reaching to
a fellow Montrealer from TELUQUniversity, which is our online
university here in Quebec, andValérie Pichet is an expert in
AI and teaching and learning,and we're going to ask her some
(00:39):
questions today about thetransformation of our schools
with AI.
It's been happening a lot.
So, Valéry, merci, thank youfor joining me today.
I hope you're doing well.
Valéry Psyché (00:54):
Yeah, thank you so much for inviting me and yes,
I'm doing pretty well actually.
Chris Colley (01:01):
Excellent, but we'll go nice and slow and have
a cool conversation.
Before we start, valerie, I'dlike to ask the guest, kind of
just as an introduction, whatwere some key moments that
brought you to where you arehere today.
In education, what were someschools you went to or people
you met or experiences you hadthat helped you get to where you
(01:25):
are here today?
Valéry Psyché (01:26):
yeah, that's a very good question.
Actually, that's uh, there'ssome very important key moments
in my, in my life, the, forexample.
I can just talk about some ofthem.
Uh, I started my study in thein in France, in Grenoble.
I was doing the equivalentdiploma of a bachelor and a
(01:50):
master.
And then there was thispossibility to go to Quebec to
have just an exchange, studentexchange for six months and to
study at Université Montreal forthis time, to learn a bit how
you guys teach and to have somecourses in international context
(02:15):
.
And then I decided to staythere and to continue my study
in Quebec because I enjoy thepeople, the life.
And then I was doing at thistime I was studying physics,
which is very far from education, but after my so I did another
(02:36):
master and then I decided that Iwanted to do a PhD.
But I wanted to change myorientation and there was this
new program it's about computercognitive informatics at
University of Quebec, which isartificial intelligence joined
(03:01):
with cognitive science, and soit was very interesting program,
very uh, innovate, aninnovation in a innovative
program actually and uh, Idecided to, to jump in this and
I never regret.
So I had uh, two directors, soone in computer science and
(03:22):
another one I chose in education.
So that's where I started to uh, to uh.
You know, like uh study, notstudy at pages, more like
research actually.
Um, but we have a couple ofcourses to have to align our
knowledge because we had to beuh uh aware, not not only about
(03:43):
computer science if we're comingfrom computer or technical
science but we have to be awareabout what was the main concern
of people from humanities.
So it was very, veryinteresting.
And then I started to beinterested in everything that
(04:05):
was based on AI in education andtechnology, enhanced learning
and all that stuff.
So yeah, that was a shift in mycareer in my career, my career.
I never changed.
(04:25):
And I was my co-directorco-supervisor was in TELUC, so
that's where I discover distancelearning as well.
Chris Colley (04:41):
And your experience with distance
learning.
How do you find it differentfrom classroom teaching Like?
What are some of the maindifferences that you experience
when you're preparing a classfor online versus, maybe,
preparing a workshop for a livein person or doing a lecture?
What do you find the bigdifferences?
Valéry Psyché (05:01):
It's quite very different and, to tell you the
truth, for many years I couldn'tconceptualize teaching or
learning without thinking aboutdistance learning.
So it took me a while toexplain more to people who are
(05:26):
doing just teaching in presencewhat were the differences.
But there are quite some bigdifferences.
For example, for us especially,what we're doing is
asynchronous distance learning,which means that we don't do
(05:47):
synchronous, we don't do like awebinar to teach our students.
So all the material has to beprepared in advance and it has
to be prepared in a way thatwill be engaging and motivating
for the students, because theywill be alone when they will be
doing the following their course.
(06:08):
So it means for us a lot ofpreparation.
So doing a teaching for us it'sdoing learning design, and
after that, when the learningdesign is done, so we implement
it in a platform, an onlineplatform, and then we do the
(06:35):
same thing as people do in theclassroom.
So we evaluate the student, weanswer their question and all
that stuff.
We supervise them.
But this part of learningdesign, for us it takes like a
team.
This is how we do it in TELUX.
So we need, for example I willwrite all the instructions very
(06:59):
clearly we have to think aboutstrategy, pedagogical strategy.
It's very important, as well asthe activity that we choose, to
maintain the student motivated,but as well to capture his
attention and to be sure that hewill gain some learning.
(07:23):
And when we finish that,usually we produce a very big
documents could be like 100 or100 or 100 or 200 sometimes
documents, and with all theresources.
Of course, all the resourceshave to be validated, which is
very important when you're doingdistance learning in the way we
(07:45):
do it, because we cannotviolate any rights.
So we have to have the list ofall the resources of the course
and we have a team who just dothat full-time validate that we
are okay for the rights that weuse in the course.
We are okay for the rights thatwe use in the course, you know,
and as well.
(08:06):
But we need to have somebody, alinguistic expert, because we
cannot put nothing that havebeen well written, because
everything is on the web, it'son the platform, so, and we have
graphic, a graphic designer anda programmer that programmed
the.
All it's so one course, it's a.
It's like a that programmed allit's so one course it's a.
(08:26):
It's like, uh, it's, it's alearning environment.
It's just uh, yeah, so that'sthe way we do it yeah, and do
you guys work with moodles atall?
Chris Colley (08:39):
like I was first introduced to that moodle idea
last year and we built a coursearound it.
And you're very right about theengagement part, like keeping
it so that the students don'tget bored or like, oh you know,
start looking at their phone orwhatever else how?
And I always kept asking, likepeople that had built Moodles
(08:59):
before, you know, like onlinecourses where you just yourself
pace, it's asynchronous and youhave certain chapters you go
through and you do certainactivities, and I kept asking
what makes online courses themost engaging for kids?
Is that a fair question?
How do you design your course?
Because I know that you have tothink about that design a lot
(09:23):
when you're creating thesecourses.
How do you bring engagement inwhen the students aren't with
you and then also not doing itat the same time?
They're all kind of doing it attheir own levels.
Valéry Psyché (09:36):
How do you?
Chris Colley (09:36):
create that in your course.
Valéry Psyché (09:39):
We have different strategies.
For example, we have a studioactually, so we can't make some
video, so we have a team to helpus to that.
So we prepare some video.
We are split some concepts sothe student can see us, that he
can replay the video they wantedto.
And we use as well, for example, some in a notice strategy that
(10:04):
I use.
Sometimes I invite some expertsand I ask them to answer some
questions.
So we film them so the studentcan have access of high quality
experts explaining some concepts.
I use that a lot, explainingsome concepts.
I use that a lot and as well,interactive activity.
(10:28):
But we have to be very carefulbecause we are very aware of
using inclusive access foreverybody.
So what we do is we have torespect the WCAG, which is the
web guidance guideline for theaccessibility.
(10:51):
So that means that sometimessome of the interactive
exercises that we want to usehave to be compatible with that.
So we have some constraintssometimes based on that.
Yeah, exactly, so this is astrategy we use, yeah great
(11:13):
ideas.
Yeah, we change the media so notto just text, video, audio and
all that stuff to keep themengaged.
Chris Colley (11:21):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's cool.
That's what we did.
We just tried different kindsof media and different kinds of
small tasks.
We made everything pretty shorttoo, so it never felt like it
was going on and on forever.
Valéry Psyché (11:37):
No, that's something that we use a lot.
It's a broad journal so theycan have questions for
reflection that they have tofill in their journal and then
they do need.
So we have different questionsthat we ask them to answer and
(11:58):
it helps them to write theiressay.
They have something to submitfor evaluation.
And the last thing that we usea lot we usually have a blog
associated with the course butwe notice that students
sometimes they are shy tointeract in the blog because
they commit themselves.
(12:20):
You know they have to sometimespresent themselves or talk
about some subject and they arelike, maybe shy.
So we encourage them.
They have some bonus forparticipating and we encourage
them to comment the text thatall the students write.
(12:40):
So there are some interactionin the course event.
It's a very flexible approachthat we have in the way we do
distance learning.
A student, for example, canstart whenever he wants, but
doing this kind of stuff, atleast it's connected with all
(13:02):
the students, even if they arenot in the same step of the
course.
There's always been somebody.
Actually there will always besomebody that is starting at
maybe pretty around the sametime.
Chris Colley (13:18):
So yeah, right, right, interesting.
And then AI comes into thepicture.
Valéry Psyché (13:24):
Yeah.
Chris Colley (13:26):
How is that helped or not helped in designing and
building your lessons andinteracting with your students?
Can you give me a couple ofexamples of where it really
helps you a lot and helps savetime, and maybe one or so where
it doesn't help so much?
Valéry Psyché (13:47):
yeah, it's a tricky question because, of
course, yeah, that's who does agood point there's some
disadvantage, but, um, actually,uh, we are facing a lot of
efforts uh to to review ourcourses because of generative AI
(14:08):
, because it's been democratizedalmost two years ago, more than
two years ago, in November 2022.
Learners have access to thiskind of tools and they use it a
lot to generate content to helpthem to write their essay, their
(14:33):
summative activities.
So this is a problem, a problemof intellectual integrity and
plagiarism plagiarism.
So, um, actually, we have, wehave to review the way we ask
them those questions to makemore personalized uh, make them
to uh doing like, for example,more like, uh, what we call um
(14:56):
experience, experiential uhlearning, like called theory
about.
So they have to tocontextualize their the answer
based on their experience and,uh, this kind of stuff can't
help.
Or we, we, we have a we have tochange the way, the strategy,
the way we, we uh inquire them,their knowledge, uh, in order to
(15:21):
avoid the plagiarism.
So it's a lot.
It's really demanding for theprofessor team because they, you
know, like you have to reviewall your courses, change the
question, change the strategies,and but fortunately, we have
help from technological experts,techno-pedagogical experts that
(15:49):
we have at TELUK, who help themwith that.
Put in place some strategy, forexample, even give them
information about how to use AI,what they can do, what they
cannot do.
You know like to come back,because sometimes they will use
it not knowing what they can dowhat they cannot do.
You know like to come backBecause sometimes they will use
it not knowing what they can dowhat they cannot do, but if the
(16:11):
rules are more clear.
The clearer it is, the better itis for everybody.
So we start to see, in all theuniversities actually even the
ones which are not doing thedistance learning, they start to
put some some framework aboutthe, the, the acceptable use of
(16:31):
AI or what is not acceptable.
So, yeah, I cannot say that itwill help me.
It could help me actually, butI don't use it a lot like this.
But I know some teachers willuse it to help them doing a
(16:54):
planning of their teaching or tobe inspired with some ideas,
and that's what gives me theideas of developing a research.
I develop actually a tool thatis called Ecopadia and this tool
(17:16):
has an instructional design, alearning design scenario
implemented with AI assistedscenario implemented and with AI
assisted.
So the teacher who don't knowto be followed to do this
(17:39):
planning, he could use this tool, for example, to write a
scenario with planning.
Planning is a teaching lesson,so it's very useful.
We use it and we test a lotwith different contexts,
actually in Quebec and as wellin the West Indies, to see how
(18:03):
it can be used in differentcontexts, and we implemented
some prompt to help.
So we have nine or ten promptsimplemented, so we control the
prompt.
So that's why the teacher don'tneed to write a prompt, because
it's a challenge for them,right?
So you know, like a promptingeducation, it's something new, a
(18:24):
challenge for them, right to uhyou know, like a printing, it's
something new.
Not everybody knows how to do itand uh, so we um and they can.
After that they can do in afollow-up.
So they can.
There's a prompt implementedfor each part, for example, uh,
the part when they have todescribe the general information
or the pedagogical informationor the learning objectives or
(18:46):
all that stuff.
So there are different programsand if they are not satisfied
with the answer, they can make afollow-up inside the tools.
So this is one tool that couldbe helpful for teachers to help
them to build their teachingcourses.
I have done research which ismore like oriented to the
(19:09):
learner, so we implemented thechatbot in a MOOC.
So MOOC it's distance learningcourses, but they are not
credited, so there's nosupervision.
There's no um supervision ofteacher in the MOOC.
So the MOOC is free but it'snot credited.
(19:33):
So the people, they registerand they have to follow the, the
, the activities by themselves,but they don't have nobody to
talk to if they have a problemor they are they question.
At the beginning we had someforum, but when we stopped
moderating the forum because ittakes a lot of resources to
moderate the forum for morepeople to have thousands of
(19:56):
people, we realized that it wasnot possible to moderate anymore
the forum and when we stoppedthat, so there was no more
interaction, even between twoteachers, two learners, for
example, I would say.
So what we did, we added, wetested chatbots, ai chatbots,
(20:18):
but, as you know, chatbotssometimes they give false
information, so it's not veryuseful for students.
So what we did?
We integrated some technologyinside to control the way he
behaves and to control the wayhe answers.
So there's a different way todo that and we have tested.
Chris Colley (20:41):
So that's a personalized tutor, basically
what you were building.
Valéry Psyché (20:46):
So if a student felt they weren't getting it,
they could ask more questions,yeah yeah, yeah, I see it like
more a learning companion,because a tutor, intelligent
tutor yes, sometimes they callit.
People associate charge GPT asa tutor, but it's not an
intelligent tutor.
If you know about thetechnology of intelligent
(21:10):
tutoring system, you willunderstand that chat GPT is far
from an intelligent tutor.
Intelligent tutor it's anenvironment that can give
feedback, yes, for the student,like Chatbot will do, but they
will do it with the knowledge ofthe learner.
(21:39):
So that means that they've beenprogramming the way to follow
step-by-step what the learner isdoing and adapt itself, not
just to the interaction, theconversational part, but as well
other parts, for example,change strategy, pedagogical
(22:02):
strategy based off cognitivediagnostic of what the student
is doing.
For example, they will adapt,showing different contents based
on an error that the studentwill do.
So it's really more adaptivethat chat GPT can do.
(22:25):
Chat GPT is really dialogue andwe try to make it more like a
tutoring system, like we'redoing, like, for example, we had
a technology called the RACwhich is a multi-generation
technology which allows us tofeed the chatbot with the
knowledge, with the knowledge,the domain knowledge, like we do
(22:48):
in the intelligent tutoringsystem.
So we feed him with okay, youhave to know all of that, to
answer well to the student,instead of choosing some
information out of the way, soyou orient it towards the source
knowledge, rather than it goingand picking wherever its model
(23:09):
is Exactly.
And, as well, we tell him how tobehave as well.
So that's true that it'sanother part that we do in the
intelligent storytelling system.
It's tutorial expertise.
So we tell him how to behave.
To do that, we will implementsome pre-programmed prompts to
(23:31):
tell him what is his role, forexample, and how he has to
behave with the student.
And if the student did that orthat, this is the way he has to
behave.
So maybe one day we will havesome kind of intelligent
tutorial based on generative AI.
(23:52):
The missing part is more likethe learner's model.
So actually, for the moment, wedon't really have a learner's
model.
So actually, for the moment, wedon't really have a learner's
model.
We don't know what.
We don't register the good, thegood points, the bad points,
(24:15):
the good, you know the error,the misunderstanding, all that
part.
And Chatbot doesn't react basedon this misunderstanding for
the moment.
But it will come for sure.
I have no doubt about that.
Right right.
Yeah.
Chris Colley (24:32):
Somebody told me too, valerie, that that's the
power of AI to come, that withwhatever is being inputted, it
can give you some suggestionsback.
For example, you know I had ahistory course.
I was confused.
You go into the chatbot to tryto clarify and then the chatbot
will tell the teacher aboutwhere the misconceptions were,
(24:55):
so that the teacher can adjusthis or her teachings based on
the information that thestudent's feeding into the
chatbot or the query that theyput in.
Is that something that TELUS islooking to as well, so that the
teachers can get some of thatinformation to help inform where
(25:17):
the students are getting theinfo and where there's
misconceptions or they don'thave an understanding of it?
Is that coming down the road,you think?
Valéry Psyché (25:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that could be if we For the
moment, yes, so the way it works, it's like if we register, if
we keep, we stock all theinformation, the interaction, so
we call it educational datalearning analytics.
So if we make some learninganalytics based on the
(25:50):
interaction, the trace thatstudents keep in the system, we
can effectively improve thecorrect misunderstanding of the
learners and, as well, improvethe learning design of the
(26:14):
course.
So the next, we can improve theteach for sure.
But we have to do this.
We have to do the learninganalytics part and it's with
some questions, some challenge,because some institutions they
are very, you know, they don'tfeel like they.
(26:37):
There are some issues aboutprivacy and data privacy,
confidentiality of student data.
So not all the institutions areat the same level of reflection
based on that.
But it would be very helpful ifwe are more like a standardized
way to analyze data and to usethem to improve the course.
(27:05):
That's why you have moreinformation to overcome dropout
and all that stuff.
Chris Colley (27:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
All that information is sohelpful If it's there too and
you can have access.
But, like you said, privacyissues are still kind kind of
and we're kind of in the youthsector as well, so there's age
limits on who can have accessand who can't.
Where do you see this AI?
Going down the road, like ifyou had a magic ball that you
(27:39):
could look through.
Where do you think we're headedwith AI in education?
Oh, there's through.
Where do you think we're headedwith AI?
Valéry Psyché (27:44):
in education.
Oh, I'm going research sincemany, many years.
Ai in education is not new AIeducation.
There's a society,international society, very
active in research, and sothere's different orientations.
(28:08):
I just evaluated some articlesyesterday for one of the
conferences.
There were, for example, peoplewho are interested in how to
use AI to generate, for example,this diagram to help in
(28:30):
mathematics, for example, totranslate some situation, so a
mathematic situation, andexercise, and make some
visualisation to help thestudent understand some concept,
for example.
Other example would be like howcan AI can help with, maybe
(29:06):
have some framework to coverthis kind of special needs, with
some tools that can be used togenerate some activities that
are more helpful for people withspecial needs, more helpful for
(29:29):
people with special needs.
Um, another example that I had,um yeah, so I don't have all in
my life.
I have uh, but but anyway.
So that's kind of example Ilike your differentiation,
though.
Chris Colley (29:34):
I think that I think that that whole um thing
that we have within education,where kids are all learning at
different levels.
It seems like AI can kind oflevel that playing field a
little bit, where you can adjustcertain things for certain
students, but they're all stilllearning the same stuff.
Valéry Psyché (29:53):
Yeah, it's what we call the adaptive learning,
so the tools adapt to the need,to the different needs.
So usually this is what we cando with artificial intelligence
in education to build some kindof system that, based on the
(30:13):
misunderstanding of the student,can provide different kind of
exercise or a different path aswell.
So maybe the rhythm is tooquick, so to make it more slow,
or to show a lesson that whenit's needed, because it isn't a
(30:35):
concept, or to give an exercisethat is more like the same kind
of exercise, same level, butwith another example, another
explanation, another way toabout this concept so that the
student could understand, or tomake it more contextualized,
(30:56):
based on where the person comesfrom, what we call a contextual
system or system sensible to thecontext or the culture, for
example.
So, yep, so there are someactually different, a lot of
(31:16):
things going on with the AI andthat community, actually
different, for example, toolsthat have been developed,
architecture as well thatexploits, exploits, neural
network or large language models, and to it's, it's.
(31:37):
It's a lot of tools that couldbe useful for teachers, for
learners as well, different kindof public, great, yeah.
So I think there's another shift, I think it's an educational
shift.
I think with AI generative AIthat will come.
We will see that there's ashift like we cannot teach the
(31:59):
same way, shift like we, wecannot teach the same way.
And there's a over hyper use ofAI by the student and the way
you use it, sometimes they willlose knowledge or not acquire
some competencies.
So there will be it's we are,there's a shift going on that I
(32:27):
think that that will addressmore like integrated generative
AI in the teaching.
That means to show the studenthow to use it well, to make to
learn things or to make exerciseto, instead of don't let them
(32:50):
use it and they will just copypast and don't learn anything.
Chris Colley (32:55):
so, yeah, exactly getting the students to know
what it's all about.
Super important.
Um Well, valerie, this has beenfascinating.
Such great insight.
I love your examples that youoffered, too, and the future
does look bright.
I mean, there's a lot of stuffhappening and, like you said,
there's a big shift going onright now, but I think people
(33:17):
like yourself have done researchand thought about this and
you're making us all a lotsmarter.
So thanks for sharing some ofyour insight today.
Valéry Psyché (33:25):
My pleasure.
Chris Colley (33:27):
It was great talking to you and have yourself
a great day.
Valéry Psyché (33:30):
Thank you, Chris.
Bye-bye.
Chris Colley (33:34):
Bye-bye.
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