Gabriel Rshaid takes us on a compelling journey through the evolving landscape of education in the age of artificial intelligence. As the director and co-founder of both the Learner Space and the Global School in Argentina, Gabriel brings a unique perspective on how we might harness AI's potential while safeguarding the essential human elements of learning.
Drawing from his transformation from traditional teacher to educational innovator, Gabriel offers refreshingly honest insights about why previous waves of educational technology failed to revolutionize schools. "We've always used these tools to enhance teaching when they were really apt for enhancing learning," he explains, highlighting how our fundamental narrative about teachers' purpose prevented meaningful change. This time, however, the disruption is unavoidable – AI can complete "an overwhelming majority of school assignments without having to learn," forcing educators to reimagine their approach from the ground up.
What makes this conversation particularly valuable is Gabriel's practical experience implementing AI in his own school. Rather than banning these tools or pretending they don't exist, the Global School openly discusses appropriate AI use with students while creating engaging projects that leverage its capabilities. From interactive historical simulations to mathematical modeling of election outcomes, Gabriel demonstrates how AI can extend cognitive development rather than replace it.
Perhaps most thought-provoking is his identification of confidence as "the missing C" in education – beyond the typical creativity, critical thinking, collaboration, and communication. By nurturing self-confident learners who believe in their capacity to adapt, unlearn, and relearn, we prepare them for an uncertain future where the relationship between humans and machines continues to evolve. Gabriel's chess metaphor for education's future offers both caution and hope: just as chess players have improved alongside AI rather than being replaced by it, our students might develop deeper intuition and skills by learning with these powerful tools.
Ready to rethink your approach to education in the AI era? Listen now for insights that will challenge your assumptions and inspire new possibilities for teaching and learning.
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Episode Transcript
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Chris Colley (00:13):
Welcome back everyone to another episode of
Shift Ed podcast.
We are been having some greatconversations lately and today I
am holding no punches.
I have Gabriel Rashid in fromArgentina, who is the director
and the co-founder of theLearner Space and also the
Global School, which are twoamazing projects, what we'll get
(00:37):
into and he's also an author, alecturer, speaker, writer you
name it ed tech.
Gabriel has his hands insomewhere in there, which is
great.
So, gabriel, thanks so much forjoining me today.
Gabriel Rshaid (00:54):
Thanks for having me A great pleasure.
Thanks for the invitation.
Chris Colley (00:57):
Yeah, no, this has been great.
I'm really happy to have you on, because I've been doing a bit
of deep diving around what youdo and how you've been doing it,
and it's really fascinating.
I want to talk about yourglobal school for sure.
Before we start, though,Gabriel, I'd love to just kind
of touch base on what have beensome of your, like, big moments
(01:21):
in your career that have kind ofbrought you to where you are
today With you know you're withthe global school and the
learner space and the AI.
You seem to be like really intoit.
We actually some colleaguesjoined one of your webinars when
you were looking at the chatbotcreation.
What were some of those tippingpoints for you in your career
(01:45):
that that have brought you heretoday with us?
Gabriel Rshaid (01:48):
That's.
That's a really interestingquestion.
I never really thought aboutthat in that way.
Teacher, you know, dotting theI's and crossing the T's and
doing what needed to be done andtrying to prepare my students
for the various requirements ofthe different schools that I
(02:12):
worked at.
And then I kind of progressedalmost naturally into
intermediate leadershippositions.
Then, like many people I had,without really knowing what I
was getting myself into, I hadan opportunity to go into
leadership in terms of becomingfirst the head of a sector at
(02:34):
the school and then an overallhead.
And then, of course, myperspective shifted because the
responsibility changed and atsome point in the first school
that I was the head of, Istarted realizing that things
were not as they seemed and that, having gained a little bit of
(02:57):
perspective, what I was reallycalled to do or what I really
wanted to dedicate my life towas trying to bring forth change
in education.
I guess there's a period inevery one of our professions
when we realize that it's notjust about being a good
performer and complying withwhat the expectations are, but
(03:22):
rather trying to change thingsas they are.
And that happened to me, I wouldsay, a couple of years into my
first headship of a school, whenI realized that maybe the road
ahead was not to do better butto do differently.
And because I've always had apassion for technology Ed tech
(03:43):
was the natural field into whichI channeled my energies and I
always saw it as a catalyst foreducational change.
And now that AI came, it's likewow, they handed me a blank
check.
I believe that, beyond all theethical implications and the
doubts and the risks that aretruly there, it has the
(04:06):
potential to truly revolutionizelearning.
That's why I jumpedwholeheartedly into trying to
utilize AI for improving schools.
Chris Colley (04:18):
I don't know if that's a good answer, but that's
what comes up.
No, totally, totally.
You know, and it kind of leadsme to this first question with
you, gabriel, when we had edtech that first started coming
in, we had one-on-one programs,we had iPads in schools, we had
smart boards like all of thistech flew into schools.
Why did it have so littleeffect, in your opinion, that it
(04:42):
seems like our educationalsystem is such a slow changing
creature and you would think ata tipping point like that, when
all of this tech was starting tocome in, that there would be a
shift, that would naturallyhappen, and it seemed to not
occur.
Do you have any reflections onthat?
Gabriel Rshaid (05:00):
Yeah, that's something that I've thought
about long and hard, and I thinkit has to do with that we were
never able to reconstruct anarrative that changed our sense
of purpose as teachers, in that, as you mentioned, chris, we've
always used these tools toenhance teaching when they were
really apt for enhancinglearning and changing.
(05:23):
You know, we always talk aboutteaching and learning.
The locus of that should be alot more shifted towards
learning than teaching, and I'vealways had these conversations
with my colleagues and otherpeople who are into this, and
I've always said you know whatwe always say we need to change
the role of the teachers, weneed to be more facilitators,
(05:45):
step aside, et cetera.
What we truly need to do is torekindle our sense of purpose.
If we always think of ourselvesas the ones who are essential
to facilitate learning andindispensable to give learning,
and we derive meaning from that,we're never going to use
technology to truly outsourcethe learning into the students,
(06:07):
which is what we should havedone.
So I think it has to do withthat we were never able to
create a new narrative about theevolution of the role of
educators and call people inwith a renewed sense of purpose.
Chris Colley (06:22):
Interesting and do you find now, with the
introduction of AI I mean it'sstill very new for most teachers
I saw a survey recently wherehalf or more than half the
population of a teacher surveyedis just still very in the dark
about AI.
It's been around since 2022,kind of like starting to pick up
(06:42):
speed.
Do you think AI has thepossibility to change the way we
practice education?
Gabriel Rshaid (06:50):
Yeah, absolutely , I think.
I mean, of course there aredeep philosophical discussions
and issues and arguments whetheryou know, is it a good thing?
Would it impact societypositively?
Even as much as a technophileas I am, I see the inherent
risks in terms of job losses andhow many of the automated
processes will be outsourced toan AI, et cetera.
(07:10):
I see that I, even you know.
I don't think it willdehumanize us, but that's a
different discussion.
But even if you transcend allof that, you can say you know
you might not agree with that.
Ai may be beneficial to theworld.
Just use it to do what you'redoing and doing it better.
If you're into project-basedlearning, you can create better
(07:31):
projects.
If you are into mathematics,teaching mathematics, you can
connect mathematics with reallife with great ease.
If you're teaching elementaryschool, you can role-play
historical characters and haveyour students interact with the
AI and trying to see what theoutcome of history would have
been.
If you're in elementary, inkindergarten, you can again
(07:53):
create fictional characters thatallow children to kind of
extend their imagination.
There are infinite things thatwe can do better without
changing anything of what we do.
I hope anything of what we do.
I hope we change what we do.
I hope we change our practice.
That's badly needed.
But even if we disregard thedeeper philosophical discussion,
just use AI to do what you'redoing better.
(08:15):
That has a potential to vastlyimprove teaching and learning.
Chris Colley (08:19):
Absolutely, I totally agree with you.
I think too, as a teacherassistant you know kind of what
you're alluding to is that itdoes save us time, which we
could focus more on the kids andtheir development and those
conversations and thatparticipation, that active
participation, I guess.
What do you think the mainhang-up is right now about AI?
(08:40):
I know teachers really kind ofhave this idea that it will
cause kids to cheat more orplagiarize more or hand in stuff
that's not authentically theirs.
How would teachers have toadjust to AI so that they don't
have to worry about that,Because it tends to be a
(09:01):
preoccupation of the negativestuff, whereas they're not
seeing all this great, amazingpositive stuff that can happen
out of it?
How do we start shifting thatmindset a little bit?
Gabriel Rshaid (09:12):
Yeah, again, objectively, it's become a
development.
Yong Sa, who's a friend of mine, a very well-known author.
He says he calls theseevolutionary hangovers.
Like we can't possibly adapt toa change of this magnitude
which radically disrupts andbrings into question 99% of what
(09:33):
we do in schools.
A technological disruptionoccurred almost from one day to
another that allowed students tocomplete again an overwhelming
majority of all schoolassignments without having to
learn.
That's a harsh reality.
Nothing we say or do, nonarrative, nothing that we can
do will overcome the fact that,again, almost everything that is
(09:55):
asked for students to do inschool can be done by an AI.
So we need to first accept thatthat, no matter what we do, the
kind of transformation that weneed is so profound that it
can't happen overnight, and thishas far surpassed our capacity
to adapt in terms of ourselvesas a collective of educators.
Clearly, the road ahead wouldbe for again, this kind of
(10:21):
catches us at a time in whicheducation is at a crossroads in
terms of defining its own self,of identity.
We were talking about theindividual sense of purpose.
You know what is educationabout.
So it doesn't find us in a goodspot in terms of renewing our
perspective, because we are atransition generation that is
moving from standardizedassessment, international
(10:41):
examinations, fixed standard, etcetera, to multiple
intelligences, student-centeredlearning, understanding that not
all kids learn the same, etcetera.
And this is like the perfectstorm to brew up all that that
was in the mix and that wedidn't make a lot of sense of.
Clearly, the road ahead is weneed to discern, at each age
(11:01):
level and for each of thesubjects, how to use AI to
extend cognitive development andnot hinder it.
The real risk is not cheatingEverybody says, academic
integrity, which is a fancy wayof saying that students are
cheating.
The real risk is thatover-reliance on AI at a
cognitive developmental phasemay hinder cognitive development
(11:23):
.
I'll give you an example whichis one that you always use to
cite as a clear example.
Like in the last year of school, whatever it is, the senior
year in the US, or 12th grade orwhatever you call it, in
different systems in the world,we teach mathematics and we
teach calculus.
Calculus is kind of the epitomeof the abstract development of
(11:45):
mental skills for students andit helps you develop certain
patterns of logical reasoningand abstract thinking.
So when you're faced with aproblem where you have to read
the problem, comprehend,construct a mathematical model,
assign an equation and thensolve that equation to an
integral or derivative.
It is kind of the highestexpression of abstract thinking
(12:06):
and mathematical modeling youcan have in school.
That's why we teach it Now.
In the old days, before AI, youwere faced with a problem and
you're like, oh, I don't knowthis, okay, I'll go take a walk,
take a cup of coffee, come backand read it and eventually,
through an iterative process ofmental breakdown, you gradually
form those neural connectionsthat allow you to do that.
(12:28):
Now you can talk to chat GPT.
You're going to say, oh, thisis too hard.
Chat GPT is going to explain itto you and you're going to have
the illusion that you developedthe skill, which you didn't.
So that's the real risk.
How do we establish, on the onehand, the risks of
over-reliance?
By mapping out cognitivedevelopment and contrasting it
(12:48):
with the developmental phase.
And instead of that, how can weextend that cognitively so that
AI, for example, can be usedfor mathematical model?
I'll give you just a very quickexample.
Down here in Argentina in 2023,we had a presidential election
with a runoff.
There were two candidates whohad the majority of votes and we
had what they call a ballotage,a runoff in the second round.
(13:11):
So the leading candidate hadsomething like eight or nine
points over the second candidateand everybody said, oh, he's
going to win because he almosthad the number of votes that
they needed for winning in thefirst round.
With a group of students in thesenior classical school we run
a mathematical simulationthrough, in this case Chachapiti
, where we modeled optimisticand pessimistic scenarios of how
the other candidates' voteswould be assigned to the leading
(13:34):
two candidates based on theirideological preferences.
So we said okay.
For example, a candidate thatwas very close philosophically
to one candidate, we said okay,pessimistic is 60%, optimistic
is 90%, because they were very,very similar.
So we ran through all of thosescenarios and we knew that the
(13:55):
candidate who had ranked secondin the election was going to win
.
There was no way that the othercandidate could win.
In no scenario could the othercandidate win.
I was saying to my friend hey,this guy's going to win.
And they said, oh no, you know,he lost the first round.
I said, listen, we ran itthrough the mathematical
scenarios and there is no waythat he's going to lose.
And that happened.
So that's an example of where byconstructing a model and
(14:18):
thinking out, you know, havingthe AI run a simulation, which
you cannot do, and runningthrough all these scenarios, the
students there were able toextend their cognitive
development.
Chris Colley (14:26):
That's so cool.
I love that and like what areal life experience, right,
like something that they mightdo again down the road.
You know it's like it'sconcrete, yet you're struggling
kind of with the models to see.
Is this hypothesis going to seethrough?
You know?
You said something also, gabriel, that I really liked is that AI
(14:48):
can take care of a lot of thestuff that we do in traditional
schools Like so we're teachingtraditionally content exams, you
know, very summative, yet AItools now are at the verge of
replacing all of that stuff.
Yet we're still heading in that.
(15:08):
So let's bring it to yourschool, because I just find it
so fascinating.
So, in the global school, howdo you leverage AI with your
teachers so that you're shiftingthat practice away from
something that a machine isgoing to eventually do way
better?
Yet kids are still, you know,becoming learners and seeing
(15:35):
learning as a lifetime feat orsomething they're going to be
doing their whole lives feat, orsomething they're going to be
doing their whole lives?
How do you lead your teachersin that direction, away from
this kind of, you know, roteindustrial model that we've just
been, we've had for so manydecades?
Gabriel Rshaid (15:53):
Yeah, to start with, let me say that we're not
getting it perfect, obviously.
Chris Colley (15:57):
We're doing our best, no.
Gabriel Rshaid (15:59):
We were like our school.
The advantage of starting westarted our school seven years
ago, so the advantages ofstarting a new school is that
you can do things right from thebeginning and you don't have to
straighten them out, as we tellpeople here.
We didn't invent anything.
Why don't you think of a schoolthat fosters autonomous
learning, global projects,project-based learning,
(16:21):
creativity, technology, criticalthinking, et cetera?
We're just doing what needs tobe done.
This is not innovation.
This is what should be done, sowe don't have such an emphasis
on sit-down, closed-book,written tests or any of the more
traditional forms of learningand assessment, which helps us
in this case.
Helps us in this case.
The sudden advent of AI is notsuch a major disruptor for us,
(16:48):
because our teaching andlearning is Sorry.
It's more attuned to theintroduction of AI.
What we do with the teachers iswe try to map out different
projects to get the teachersexcited.
To start with, let me say weopenly talk about AI.
So we talk to our studentsabout AI and we tell them listen
(17:08):
, if you use, there are certainskills that you need to learn.
Obviously, there's moreemphasis on this as for middle
school onwards, but even inupper elementary, like in fourth
, fifth and sixth grade.
We talk to them about AI and wesay, hey, don't use it for this
, we're going to use it forsomething else.
If we talk openly about it, wekind of demystify the whole
thing and we take away a lot ofthe secrecy that is associated
(17:30):
with AI and the surreptitioususe to solve school assignments.
We the secrecy that isassociated with AI and the
surreptitious use to solveschool assignments we don't
place such a heavy emphasis onthe numeric grades and on the
results, which, again, is what Itell people all the time is you
have to avoid high pressuresituations, especially in the
high school.
So if you have a kid who has tocomply with your internal
(17:51):
assessment, has a test tomorrow,has to do a report and has to
do a couple of other and it's 2am, they will use AI.
They will use AI Because youknow time management avoid
high-pressure situations.
But going back to what I wassaying, we are trying to create
again projects that are cool forteachers.
We are trying to use now we'restarting to use the advanced
(18:13):
voice and camera avatars forelementary.
Like we have a tablet and wesay our teachers are creating
like special characters fortheir classes.
They're studying history.
They say, okay, you need to actlike a certain historical
figure and our kids are going tointerview you.
(18:34):
And, for example, we did aproject last year where there's
an episode in Art and Historywhen one of the founding fathers
came back from his exile inEurope and he stayed in Uruguay
and he said, no, this is a mess,I'm going to go back to Europe.
And he went back to Europe.
He didn't disembark in BuenosAires to try to fix the
situation.
So we said, okay, yourassignment is to convince this
(18:56):
historical figure that, insteadof going back to Europe because
the Buenos Aires is a mess, youhave to convince him to stay.
And then we have to think ofwhat the outcome would have been
.
So their presentation they hadto create a presentation to say,
hey, instead of jumping shipand going back to Europe, you
have to stay here, and this isthe reason why your influence
could be so good, et cetera.
We're trying to do that.
Of course, we don't always getit right, but we're trying to
(19:17):
use AI in ways that are excitingand interesting.
Chris Colley (19:19):
Right right.
And how do you lead teachersinto that unknown?
Because teachers are very theylike helping, they like
supporting students, they likeplanning so that things are
thought out and like, with thismassive change that's happening,
how can, how do you lead thosethat are hesitant to jump in,
(19:45):
like, what are your leadershipstructures that support those
kind of reluctant teachers?
Gabriel Rshaid (19:52):
yeah, to be honest with you you know, I'm
I'm a big advocate, so peopleknow me and, uh, they kind of
don't have an option here, soyeah it's, it's not on, but but
when, when I work with leadersin schools, I tell them you have
to model, you have to be amodel, you have to play yourself
, you have to be, you know,model the what what they call
confident uncertainty, like,yeah, this, yeah, this is fun,
(20:13):
this is exciting, let's playaround, use it in your meetings,
like, do the cool stuff, showthem how you know the camera can
interact with them and thatthey can summarize their
meetings they can, you know, useit and play around with it.
And I think the only way tostart with some teachers.
You're never going to reachSome people.
(20:37):
You know, no matter what you do, you're never going to reach
them because they're.
Unfortunately, some people arepast the point where they want
to learn anymore, and thatdoesn't only apply to AI, so I
wouldn't.
I always tell them don't wasteyour efforts on those who have
already given up, unfortunately,and who are ensconced in their
ego construction of being thesage on stage.
They might have value.
Schools can be diverseenvironments.
(20:59):
Let them do what they do, butin all other respects I would
say model a playful behavior, beexcited about it, play around
with it.
Even I always tell them listen,even if it doesn't have a
direct link to what you do inschool.
Show them the cool stuff,create a video, create a fun
video.
(21:19):
Uh, you know, do voice cloning.
Uh, you know, that kind ofthing, I think.
I think that's the way to leadthe way yeah, no, I love it.
Chris Colley (21:27):
I love it, it's, it's, it's really.
I love that idea and your like,when you're um, in your motto,
that you have play, discover,create, learn.
Play is your first word, whichI love, but I'm surprised at how
little play these generationsGen Z example do.
(21:50):
Um, it seems like plays isbeing forgotten as our kids are
growing up and stuff.
What, what do you mean by playlike in your, in your motto of
your school, and what do youhope that that play looks like
in your school?
Gabriel Rshaid (22:07):
Having fun.
As simple as that.
Like we need.
We need to what I was justsaying we need to it's.
It's like Picasso once saidthat it took him a lifetime to
draw like a 10 year old.
And I think we need to takeheart of that and say we, the
adults, the older kids, we needto have fun while we learn.
Like we, it's it's.
It can be a serious businessand fun at the same time.
(22:28):
It doesn't have to be solemn.
For us, play is having fun,being excited about learning,
and we want to share in that.
We do a lot of open classes.
We bring families in.
We can't wait to let peopleknow about what we're doing.
It's about being excited, yeah.
Chris Colley (22:44):
Yeah, it is exciting, like your school seems
exciting, like I was browsingthrough the website and it just
looks so fun, like it's flexibleseating and there's like
different areas all over theplace and projects happening.
It's like there's this vibrancygoing on.
Gabriel, what skills are youhoping to instill in your
(23:05):
students at, you know, at theglobal school?
What are the key skills thatyou find that they're going to
need in such?
You know, we've always herelike we're teaching kids for an
unknown future, right, so we're,we're giving them, hopefully,
skills, but the content, I mean,like you said, I mean they can
find that stuff if they need it,but the skills is where I find
(23:28):
that we're missing the boat, um,and getting kids ready for the
things they're going to have todo.
So, in your opinion, in yourschool, what are those skills
that are paramount that you needto have the kids having before
they leave the school?
Gabriel Rshaid (23:41):
Yeah, for us it's a missing C.
You know, they always saycreativity, critical thinking,
et cetera, the four C's.
The missing C is confidence.
I think they need to beconfident, and that's not an
accidental outcome of schoolbeing confident in your
abilities, in your capacity tounlearn and relearn.
(24:02):
We work hard for that and a lotof times getting there is more
about what we don't do than whatwe do In terms of building up
our students' confidence thatthey can do anything that they
set their minds and their heartsto do.
So that's one we believe a lotin presenting their ideas, in
(24:22):
communicating, especially orally, so we try as much as we can to
have our students defend theirideas and go out to the world
and do stuff.
We've had students that havedone leadership, like a
leadership day in a company herelast year in the outside world,
(24:42):
reproducing what they do atschool, and again, it's about so
yeah, basically, I would saythat it's nurturing
self-confident learners, makingsure that we don't impact their
self esteem or that we impact itas less as possible, and that
we, I would say, lifelonglearning is is is about the
(25:03):
tools, for sure, and we try todo that, but it's also about the
motivation.
I think that the motivation isan important part yeah, well, I
love the confidence.
Chris Colley (25:12):
Um'm going to add that C also to those four other
Cs because I totally agree.
I think if you don't have that,the others aren't as effective,
they're meaningless.
Gabriel Rshaid (25:22):
Yeah, they're meaningless.
Chris Colley (25:23):
Totally totally.
So, Gabriel to kind of bringthings to a close again.
Thanks so much for hopping onhere and sharing some of your
thoughts.
Where do you see this going?
Where's education headed to?
I asked that last question in2035.
Like, if you had a crystal ball, what do you?
Gabriel Rshaid (25:46):
where do you think we're headed with all of
this?
Yeah, to be honest, I don'tknow.
I can tell you where I think itcould be headed.
I've always been a chess player.
I I enjoy chess.
I've played chess my entirelife and chess is a is a, even
though it's a kind of veryreductive comparison to learning
.
It's a.
It's a good way to think ofwhat the future may look like,
because, uh, in chess I'd sayfor the last 15 years, uh, the,
(26:09):
the, the chess software that Ihave in my phone can beat the
world champion.
So all of us chess players havehad our egos chopped down for
many years and knowing that youknow the computer will beat us,
and we live in a world where weknow that we are not the
smartest species that playschess.
Computers are a lot better thanus.
So what happened?
In retrospect that goes all theway back to 1994, when Kasper
(26:31):
was beaten by Deep Blue, etc.
So what's the state of affairsright now?
More people than ever areplaying chess.
It's become a super populargame.
The level of the currentgeneration of grandmasters is
the best in history.
They would, hands down, beatany historical player because
(26:51):
they're playing a lot better,measured by objective standards,
than any of the grandmasters ofthe past.
Um, when I used to playtournaments when I was a lot
younger, you used to play gamesthat lasted five or six hours.
Now the main form ofcompetition is blitz, meaning
that the whole game lasts 10minutes, because it's a lot more
fun, more exciting and you cancheat.
(27:12):
You don't have time to cheat.
You don't have time to use acomputer and cheat because the
game is so fast.
And if you ask the players howthey've become so good, they
said that they.
Now chess has two sides to it.
One is the kind of holisticappreciation of pattern,
recognition of a position.
After playing a lot.
You see a position and youintuitively know what the best
(27:34):
move is, even without having tocalculate a sequence.
And there's also an analyticalside to it, which is calculating
a sequence of moves to see theoutcomes.
Now the current generation ofplayers they mostly say that
they've developed a deepintuition through repetitive
practice that allows them toknow what the best move is
without even having to calculateanalytically the sequence of
(27:54):
moves that would lead to anoutcome.
How did they achieve this?
How do we all learn?
And when I was again, when Iwas in school, I had books.
I learned from books and wereproduced.
Now we all play with oursoftware and 99 times out of 100
, we get destroyed by thecomputer.
You always play one or twolevels below the computer, so
(28:14):
the computer beats you all thetime.
Do I get discouraged?
Not at all.
So that's learning frommistakes.
Yep, big time, which we don'tdo in schools.
I am not discouraged bylearning from mistakes.
Assessment is not the sit-downwritten test that it used to be,
the six-hour game.
Now it's in real time, it'ssituational and the repetitive
(28:35):
practice has developed deepintuition.
So how do I see this evolving?
Hopefully, if we had immersivevideo games that teach you stuff
, if we truly capitalize on thepromise of adaptive learning to
learn from mistakes and not behindered by it, if we evolve
assessment from the conventionalon how to go.
(28:55):
You know, we go out and here'sa situation that you have to
solve and you have to solve itin a limited amount of time and
you have to demonstrate thatdeep intuition and learning
through solving a real-timesituation, and that's the
outcome of school.
So I see that Now, whether thatwill happen or not, education
has proven impervious to most ofthe forces that have shaped the
outside world.
So who knows?
Chris Colley (29:16):
I love your metaphor, though.
That's so good and it makes alot of sense.
Well, I'm going to think aboutthat.
I mean, you've shared so manythoughts here, gabriel.
It's going to take me some timeto weed through them all, but I
really do appreciate you takingsome time and sharing these.
It's been really fascinatingkind of getting to know you a
little bit preparing for this,but this conversation has been
(29:38):
so cool, so thank you very much.
Gabriel Rshaid (29:40):
I'm very, very grateful for the opportunity
Amazing.
Chris Colley (29:43):
Well, you take care and we'll talk soon.
Okay, thank you very much.
Thank you.
Welcome back everyone to another episode of
Shift Ed podcast.
We are been having some greatconversations lately and today I
am holding no punches.
I have Gabriel Rashid in fromArgentina, who is the director
and the co-founder of theLearner Space and also the
Global School, which are twoamazing projects, what we'll get
(00:37):
into and he's also an author, alecturer, speaker, writer you
name it ed tech.
Gabriel has his hands insomewhere in there, which is
great.
So, gabriel, thanks so much forjoining me today.
Gabriel Rshaid (00:54):
Thanks for having me A great pleasure.
Thanks for the invitation.
Chris Colley (00:57):
Yeah, no, this has been great.
I'm really happy to have you on, because I've been doing a bit
of deep diving around what youdo and how you've been doing it,
and it's really fascinating.
I want to talk about yourglobal school for sure.
Before we start, though,Gabriel, I'd love to just kind
of touch base on what have beensome of your, like, big moments
(01:21):
in your career that have kind ofbrought you to where you are
today With you know you're withthe global school and the
learner space and the AI.
You seem to be like really intoit.
We actually some colleaguesjoined one of your webinars when
you were looking at the chatbotcreation.
What were some of those tippingpoints for you in your career
(01:45):
that that have brought you heretoday with us?
Gabriel Rshaid (01:48):
That's.
That's a really interestingquestion.
I never really thought aboutthat in that way.
Teacher, you know, dotting theI's and crossing the T's and
doing what needed to be done andtrying to prepare my students
for the various requirements ofthe different schools that I
(02:12):
worked at.
And then I kind of progressedalmost naturally into
intermediate leadershippositions.
Then, like many people I had,without really knowing what I
was getting myself into, I hadan opportunity to go into
leadership in terms of becomingfirst the head of a sector at
(02:34):
the school and then an overallhead.
And then, of course, myperspective shifted because the
responsibility changed and atsome point in the first school
that I was the head of, Istarted realizing that things
were not as they seemed and that, having gained a little bit of
(02:57):
perspective, what I was reallycalled to do or what I really
wanted to dedicate my life towas trying to bring forth change
in education.
I guess there's a period inevery one of our professions
when we realize that it's notjust about being a good
performer and complying withwhat the expectations are, but
(03:22):
rather trying to change thingsas they are.
And that happened to me, I wouldsay, a couple of years into my
first headship of a school, whenI realized that maybe the road
ahead was not to do better butto do differently.
And because I've always had apassion for technology Ed tech
(03:43):
was the natural field into whichI channeled my energies and I
always saw it as a catalyst foreducational change.
And now that AI came, it's likewow, they handed me a blank
check.
I believe that, beyond all theethical implications and the
doubts and the risks that aretruly there, it has the
(04:06):
potential to truly revolutionizelearning.
That's why I jumpedwholeheartedly into trying to
utilize AI for improving schools.
Chris Colley (04:18):
I don't know if that's a good answer, but that's
what comes up.
No, totally, totally.
You know, and it kind of leadsme to this first question with
you, gabriel, when we had edtech that first started coming
in, we had one-on-one programs,we had iPads in schools, we had
smart boards like all of thistech flew into schools.
Why did it have so littleeffect, in your opinion, that it
(04:42):
seems like our educationalsystem is such a slow changing
creature and you would think ata tipping point like that, when
all of this tech was starting tocome in, that there would be a
shift, that would naturallyhappen, and it seemed to not
occur.
Do you have any reflections onthat?
Gabriel Rshaid (05:00):
Yeah, that's something that I've thought
about long and hard, and I thinkit has to do with that we were
never able to reconstruct anarrative that changed our sense
of purpose as teachers, in that, as you mentioned, chris, we've
always used these tools toenhance teaching when they were
really apt for enhancinglearning and changing.
(05:23):
You know, we always talk aboutteaching and learning.
The locus of that should be alot more shifted towards
learning than teaching, and I'vealways had these conversations
with my colleagues and otherpeople who are into this, and
I've always said you know whatwe always say we need to change
the role of the teachers, weneed to be more facilitators,
(05:45):
step aside, et cetera.
What we truly need to do is torekindle our sense of purpose.
If we always think of ourselvesas the ones who are essential
to facilitate learning andindispensable to give learning,
and we derive meaning from that,we're never going to use
technology to truly outsourcethe learning into the students,
(06:07):
which is what we should havedone.
So I think it has to do withthat we were never able to
create a new narrative about theevolution of the role of
educators and call people inwith a renewed sense of purpose.
Chris Colley (06:22):
Interesting and do you find now, with the
introduction of AI I mean it'sstill very new for most teachers
I saw a survey recently wherehalf or more than half the
population of a teacher surveyedis just still very in the dark
about AI.
It's been around since 2022,kind of like starting to pick up
(06:42):
speed.
Do you think AI has thepossibility to change the way we
practice education?
Gabriel Rshaid (06:50):
Yeah, absolutely , I think.
I mean, of course there aredeep philosophical discussions
and issues and arguments whetheryou know, is it a good thing?
Would it impact societypositively?
Even as much as a technophileas I am, I see the inherent
risks in terms of job losses andhow many of the automated
processes will be outsourced toan AI, et cetera.
(07:10):
I see that I, even you know.
I don't think it willdehumanize us, but that's a
different discussion.
But even if you transcend allof that, you can say you know
you might not agree with that.
Ai may be beneficial to theworld.
Just use it to do what you'redoing and doing it better.
If you're into project-basedlearning, you can create better
(07:31):
projects.
If you are into mathematics,teaching mathematics, you can
connect mathematics with reallife with great ease.
If you're teaching elementaryschool, you can role-play
historical characters and haveyour students interact with the
AI and trying to see what theoutcome of history would have
been.
If you're in elementary, inkindergarten, you can again
(07:53):
create fictional characters thatallow children to kind of
extend their imagination.
There are infinite things thatwe can do better without
changing anything of what we do.
I hope anything of what we do.
I hope we change what we do.
I hope we change our practice.
That's badly needed.
But even if we disregard thedeeper philosophical discussion,
just use AI to do what you'redoing better.
(08:15):
That has a potential to vastlyimprove teaching and learning.
Chris Colley (08:19):
Absolutely, I totally agree with you.
I think too, as a teacherassistant you know kind of what
you're alluding to is that itdoes save us time, which we
could focus more on the kids andtheir development and those
conversations and thatparticipation, that active
participation, I guess.
What do you think the mainhang-up is right now about AI?
(08:40):
I know teachers really kind ofhave this idea that it will
cause kids to cheat more orplagiarize more or hand in stuff
that's not authentically theirs.
How would teachers have toadjust to AI so that they don't
have to worry about that,Because it tends to be a
(09:01):
preoccupation of the negativestuff, whereas they're not
seeing all this great, amazingpositive stuff that can happen
out of it?
How do we start shifting thatmindset a little bit?
Gabriel Rshaid (09:12):
Yeah, again, objectively, it's become a
development.
Yong Sa, who's a friend of mine, a very well-known author.
He says he calls theseevolutionary hangovers.
Like we can't possibly adapt toa change of this magnitude
which radically disrupts andbrings into question 99% of what
(09:33):
we do in schools.
A technological disruptionoccurred almost from one day to
another that allowed students tocomplete again an overwhelming
majority of all schoolassignments without having to
learn.
That's a harsh reality.
Nothing we say or do, nonarrative, nothing that we can
do will overcome the fact that,again, almost everything that is
(09:55):
asked for students to do inschool can be done by an AI.
So we need to first accept thatthat, no matter what we do, the
kind of transformation that weneed is so profound that it
can't happen overnight, and thishas far surpassed our capacity
to adapt in terms of ourselvesas a collective of educators.
Clearly, the road ahead wouldbe for again, this kind of
(10:21):
catches us at a time in whicheducation is at a crossroads in
terms of defining its own self,of identity.
We were talking about theindividual sense of purpose.
You know what is educationabout.
So it doesn't find us in a goodspot in terms of renewing our
perspective, because we are atransition generation that is
moving from standardizedassessment, international
(10:41):
examinations, fixed standard, etcetera, to multiple
intelligences, student-centeredlearning, understanding that not
all kids learn the same, etcetera.
And this is like the perfectstorm to brew up all that that
was in the mix and that wedidn't make a lot of sense of.
Clearly, the road ahead is weneed to discern, at each age
(11:01):
level and for each of thesubjects, how to use AI to
extend cognitive development andnot hinder it.
The real risk is not cheatingEverybody says, academic
integrity, which is a fancy wayof saying that students are
cheating.
The real risk is thatover-reliance on AI at a
cognitive developmental phasemay hinder cognitive development
(11:23):
.
I'll give you an example whichis one that you always use to
cite as a clear example.
Like in the last year of school, whatever it is, the senior
year in the US, or 12th grade orwhatever you call it, in
different systems in the world,we teach mathematics and we
teach calculus.
Calculus is kind of the epitomeof the abstract development of
(11:45):
mental skills for students andit helps you develop certain
patterns of logical reasoningand abstract thinking.
So when you're faced with aproblem where you have to read
the problem, comprehend,construct a mathematical model,
assign an equation and thensolve that equation to an
integral or derivative.
It is kind of the highestexpression of abstract thinking
(12:06):
and mathematical modeling youcan have in school.
That's why we teach it Now.
In the old days, before AI, youwere faced with a problem and
you're like, oh, I don't knowthis, okay, I'll go take a walk,
take a cup of coffee, come backand read it and eventually,
through an iterative process ofmental breakdown, you gradually
form those neural connectionsthat allow you to do that.
(12:28):
Now you can talk to chat GPT.
You're going to say, oh, thisis too hard.
Chat GPT is going to explain itto you and you're going to have
the illusion that you developedthe skill, which you didn't.
So that's the real risk.
How do we establish, on the onehand, the risks of
over-reliance?
By mapping out cognitivedevelopment and contrasting it
(12:48):
with the developmental phase.
And instead of that, how can weextend that cognitively so that
AI, for example, can be usedfor mathematical model?
I'll give you just a very quickexample.
Down here in Argentina in 2023,we had a presidential election
with a runoff.
There were two candidates whohad the majority of votes and we
had what they call a ballotage,a runoff in the second round.
(13:11):
So the leading candidate hadsomething like eight or nine
points over the second candidateand everybody said, oh, he's
going to win because he almosthad the number of votes that
they needed for winning in thefirst round.
With a group of students in thesenior classical school we run
a mathematical simulationthrough, in this case Chachapiti
, where we modeled optimisticand pessimistic scenarios of how
the other candidates' voteswould be assigned to the leading
(13:34):
two candidates based on theirideological preferences.
So we said okay.
For example, a candidate thatwas very close philosophically
to one candidate, we said okay,pessimistic is 60%, optimistic
is 90%, because they were very,very similar.
So we ran through all of thosescenarios and we knew that the
(13:55):
candidate who had ranked secondin the election was going to win
.
There was no way that the othercandidate could win.
In no scenario could the othercandidate win.
I was saying to my friend hey,this guy's going to win.
And they said, oh no, you know,he lost the first round.
I said, listen, we ran itthrough the mathematical
scenarios and there is no waythat he's going to lose.
And that happened.
So that's an example of where byconstructing a model and
(14:18):
thinking out, you know, havingthe AI run a simulation, which
you cannot do, and runningthrough all these scenarios, the
students there were able toextend their cognitive
development.
Chris Colley (14:26):
That's so cool.
I love that and like what areal life experience, right,
like something that they mightdo again down the road.
You know it's like it'sconcrete, yet you're struggling
kind of with the models to see.
Is this hypothesis going to seethrough?
You know?
You said something also, gabriel, that I really liked is that AI
(14:48):
can take care of a lot of thestuff that we do in traditional
schools Like so we're teachingtraditionally content exams, you
know, very summative, yet AItools now are at the verge of
replacing all of that stuff.
Yet we're still heading in that.
(15:08):
So let's bring it to yourschool, because I just find it
so fascinating.
So, in the global school, howdo you leverage AI with your
teachers so that you're shiftingthat practice away from
something that a machine isgoing to eventually do way
better?
Yet kids are still, you know,becoming learners and seeing
(15:35):
learning as a lifetime feat orsomething they're going to be
doing their whole lives feat, orsomething they're going to be
doing their whole lives?
How do you lead your teachersin that direction, away from
this kind of, you know, roteindustrial model that we've just
been, we've had for so manydecades?
Gabriel Rshaid (15:53):
Yeah, to start with, let me say that we're not
getting it perfect, obviously.
Chris Colley (15:57):
We're doing our best, no.
Gabriel Rshaid (15:59):
We were like our school.
The advantage of starting westarted our school seven years
ago, so the advantages ofstarting a new school is that
you can do things right from thebeginning and you don't have to
straighten them out, as we tellpeople here.
We didn't invent anything.
Why don't you think of a schoolthat fosters autonomous
learning, global projects,project-based learning,
(16:21):
creativity, technology, criticalthinking, et cetera?
We're just doing what needs tobe done.
This is not innovation.
This is what should be done, sowe don't have such an emphasis
on sit-down, closed-book,written tests or any of the more
traditional forms of learningand assessment, which helps us
in this case.
Helps us in this case.
The sudden advent of AI is notsuch a major disruptor for us,
(16:48):
because our teaching andlearning is Sorry.
It's more attuned to theintroduction of AI.
What we do with the teachers iswe try to map out different
projects to get the teachersexcited.
To start with, let me say weopenly talk about AI.
So we talk to our studentsabout AI and we tell them listen
(17:08):
, if you use, there are certainskills that you need to learn.
Obviously, there's moreemphasis on this as for middle
school onwards, but even inupper elementary, like in fourth
, fifth and sixth grade.
We talk to them about AI and wesay, hey, don't use it for this
, we're going to use it forsomething else.
If we talk openly about it, wekind of demystify the whole
thing and we take away a lot ofthe secrecy that is associated
(17:30):
with AI and the surreptitioususe to solve school assignments.
We the secrecy that isassociated with AI and the
surreptitious use to solveschool assignments we don't
place such a heavy emphasis onthe numeric grades and on the
results, which, again, is what Itell people all the time is you
have to avoid high pressuresituations, especially in the
high school.
So if you have a kid who has tocomply with your internal
(17:51):
assessment, has a test tomorrow,has to do a report and has to
do a couple of other and it's 2am, they will use AI.
They will use AI Because youknow time management avoid
high-pressure situations.
But going back to what I wassaying, we are trying to create
again projects that are cool forteachers.
We are trying to use now we'restarting to use the advanced
(18:13):
voice and camera avatars forelementary.
Like we have a tablet and wesay our teachers are creating
like special characters fortheir classes.
They're studying history.
They say, okay, you need to actlike a certain historical
figure and our kids are going tointerview you.
(18:34):
And, for example, we did aproject last year where there's
an episode in Art and Historywhen one of the founding fathers
came back from his exile inEurope and he stayed in Uruguay
and he said, no, this is a mess,I'm going to go back to Europe.
And he went back to Europe.
He didn't disembark in BuenosAires to try to fix the
situation.
So we said, okay, yourassignment is to convince this
(18:56):
historical figure that, insteadof going back to Europe because
the Buenos Aires is a mess, youhave to convince him to stay.
And then we have to think ofwhat the outcome would have been
.
So their presentation they hadto create a presentation to say,
hey, instead of jumping shipand going back to Europe, you
have to stay here, and this isthe reason why your influence
could be so good, et cetera.
We're trying to do that.
Of course, we don't always getit right, but we're trying to
(19:17):
use AI in ways that are excitingand interesting.
Chris Colley (19:19):
Right right.
And how do you lead teachersinto that unknown?
Because teachers are very theylike helping, they like
supporting students, they likeplanning so that things are
thought out and like, with thismassive change that's happening,
how can, how do you lead thosethat are hesitant to jump in,
(19:45):
like, what are your leadershipstructures that support those
kind of reluctant teachers?
Gabriel Rshaid (19:52):
yeah, to be honest with you you know, I'm
I'm a big advocate, so peopleknow me and, uh, they kind of
don't have an option here, soyeah it's, it's not on, but but
when, when I work with leadersin schools, I tell them you have
to model, you have to be amodel, you have to play yourself
, you have to be, you know,model the what what they call
confident uncertainty, like,yeah, this, yeah, this is fun,
(20:13):
this is exciting, let's playaround, use it in your meetings,
like, do the cool stuff, showthem how you know the camera can
interact with them and thatthey can summarize their
meetings they can, you know, useit and play around with it.
And I think the only way tostart with some teachers.
You're never going to reachSome people.
(20:37):
You know, no matter what you do, you're never going to reach
them because they're.
Unfortunately, some people arepast the point where they want
to learn anymore, and thatdoesn't only apply to AI, so I
wouldn't.
I always tell them don't wasteyour efforts on those who have
already given up, unfortunately,and who are ensconced in their
ego construction of being thesage on stage.
They might have value.
Schools can be diverseenvironments.
(20:59):
Let them do what they do, butin all other respects I would
say model a playful behavior, beexcited about it, play around
with it.
Even I always tell them listen,even if it doesn't have a
direct link to what you do inschool.
Show them the cool stuff,create a video, create a fun
video.
(21:19):
Uh, you know, do voice cloning.
Uh, you know, that kind ofthing, I think.
I think that's the way to leadthe way yeah, no, I love it.
Chris Colley (21:27):
I love it, it's, it's, it's really.
I love that idea and your like,when you're um, in your motto,
that you have play, discover,create, learn.
Play is your first word, whichI love, but I'm surprised at how
little play these generationsGen Z example do.
(21:50):
Um, it seems like plays isbeing forgotten as our kids are
growing up and stuff.
What, what do you mean by playlike in your, in your motto of
your school, and what do youhope that that play looks like
in your school?
Gabriel Rshaid (22:07):
Having fun.
As simple as that.
Like we need.
We need to what I was justsaying we need to it's.
It's like Picasso once saidthat it took him a lifetime to
draw like a 10 year old.
And I think we need to takeheart of that and say we, the
adults, the older kids, we needto have fun while we learn.
Like we, it's it's.
It can be a serious businessand fun at the same time.
(22:28):
It doesn't have to be solemn.
For us, play is having fun,being excited about learning,
and we want to share in that.
We do a lot of open classes.
We bring families in.
We can't wait to let peopleknow about what we're doing.
It's about being excited, yeah.
Chris Colley (22:44):
Yeah, it is exciting, like your school seems
exciting, like I was browsingthrough the website and it just
looks so fun, like it's flexibleseating and there's like
different areas all over theplace and projects happening.
It's like there's this vibrancygoing on.
Gabriel, what skills are youhoping to instill in your
(23:05):
students at, you know, at theglobal school?
What are the key skills thatyou find that they're going to
need in such?
You know, we've always herelike we're teaching kids for an
unknown future, right, so we're,we're giving them, hopefully,
skills, but the content, I mean,like you said, I mean they can
find that stuff if they need it,but the skills is where I find
(23:28):
that we're missing the boat, um,and getting kids ready for the
things they're going to have todo.
So, in your opinion, in yourschool, what are those skills
that are paramount that you needto have the kids having before
they leave the school?
Gabriel Rshaid (23:41):
Yeah, for us it's a missing C.
You know, they always saycreativity, critical thinking,
et cetera, the four C's.
The missing C is confidence.
I think they need to beconfident, and that's not an
accidental outcome of schoolbeing confident in your
abilities, in your capacity tounlearn and relearn.
(24:02):
We work hard for that and a lotof times getting there is more
about what we don't do than whatwe do In terms of building up
our students' confidence thatthey can do anything that they
set their minds and their heartsto do.
So that's one we believe a lotin presenting their ideas, in
(24:22):
communicating, especially orally, so we try as much as we can to
have our students defend theirideas and go out to the world
and do stuff.
We've had students that havedone leadership, like a
leadership day in a company herelast year in the outside world,
(24:42):
reproducing what they do atschool, and again, it's about so
yeah, basically, I would saythat it's nurturing
self-confident learners, makingsure that we don't impact their
self esteem or that we impact itas less as possible, and that
we, I would say, lifelonglearning is is is about the
(25:03):
tools, for sure, and we try todo that, but it's also about the
motivation.
I think that the motivation isan important part yeah, well, I
love the confidence.
Chris Colley (25:12):
Um'm going to add that C also to those four other
Cs because I totally agree.
I think if you don't have that,the others aren't as effective,
they're meaningless.
Gabriel Rshaid (25:22):
Yeah, they're meaningless.
Chris Colley (25:23):
Totally totally.
So, Gabriel to kind of bringthings to a close again.
Thanks so much for hopping onhere and sharing some of your
thoughts.
Where do you see this going?
Where's education headed to?
I asked that last question in2035.
Like, if you had a crystal ball, what do you?
Gabriel Rshaid (25:46):
where do you think we're headed with all of
this?
Yeah, to be honest, I don'tknow.
I can tell you where I think itcould be headed.
I've always been a chess player.
I I enjoy chess.
I've played chess my entirelife and chess is a is a, even
though it's a kind of veryreductive comparison to learning
.
It's a.
It's a good way to think ofwhat the future may look like,
because, uh, in chess I'd sayfor the last 15 years, uh, the,
(26:09):
the, the chess software that Ihave in my phone can beat the
world champion.
So all of us chess players havehad our egos chopped down for
many years and knowing that youknow the computer will beat us,
and we live in a world where weknow that we are not the
smartest species that playschess.
Computers are a lot better thanus.
So what happened?
In retrospect that goes all theway back to 1994, when Kasper
(26:31):
was beaten by Deep Blue, etc.
So what's the state of affairsright now?
More people than ever areplaying chess.
It's become a super populargame.
The level of the currentgeneration of grandmasters is
the best in history.
They would, hands down, beatany historical player because
(26:51):
they're playing a lot better,measured by objective standards,
than any of the grandmasters ofthe past.
Um, when I used to playtournaments when I was a lot
younger, you used to play gamesthat lasted five or six hours.
Now the main form ofcompetition is blitz, meaning
that the whole game lasts 10minutes, because it's a lot more
fun, more exciting and you cancheat.
(27:12):
You don't have time to cheat.
You don't have time to use acomputer and cheat because the
game is so fast.
And if you ask the players howthey've become so good, they
said that they.
Now chess has two sides to it.
One is the kind of holisticappreciation of pattern,
recognition of a position.
After playing a lot.
You see a position and youintuitively know what the best
(27:34):
move is, even without having tocalculate a sequence.
And there's also an analyticalside to it, which is calculating
a sequence of moves to see theoutcomes.
Now the current generation ofplayers they mostly say that
they've developed a deepintuition through repetitive
practice that allows them toknow what the best move is
without even having to calculateanalytically the sequence of
(27:54):
moves that would lead to anoutcome.
How did they achieve this?
How do we all learn?
And when I was again, when Iwas in school, I had books.
I learned from books and wereproduced.
Now we all play with oursoftware and 99 times out of 100
, we get destroyed by thecomputer.
You always play one or twolevels below the computer, so
(28:14):
the computer beats you all thetime.
Do I get discouraged?
Not at all.
So that's learning frommistakes.
Yep, big time, which we don'tdo in schools.
I am not discouraged bylearning from mistakes.
Assessment is not the sit-downwritten test that it used to be,
the six-hour game.
Now it's in real time, it'ssituational and the repetitive
(28:35):
practice has developed deepintuition.
So how do I see this evolving?
Hopefully, if we had immersivevideo games that teach you stuff
, if we truly capitalize on thepromise of adaptive learning to
learn from mistakes and not behindered by it, if we evolve
assessment from the conventionalon how to go.
(28:55):
You know, we go out and here'sa situation that you have to
solve and you have to solve itin a limited amount of time and
you have to demonstrate thatdeep intuition and learning
through solving a real-timesituation, and that's the
outcome of school.
So I see that Now, whether thatwill happen or not, education
has proven impervious to most ofthe forces that have shaped the
outside world.
So who knows?
Chris Colley (29:16):
I love your metaphor, though.
That's so good and it makes alot of sense.
Well, I'm going to think aboutthat.
I mean, you've shared so manythoughts here, gabriel.
It's going to take me some timeto weed through them all, but I
really do appreciate you takingsome time and sharing these.
It's been really fascinatingkind of getting to know you a
little bit preparing for this,but this conversation has been
(29:38):
so cool, so thank you very much.
Gabriel Rshaid (29:40):
I'm very, very grateful for the opportunity
Amazing.
Chris Colley (29:43):
Well, you take care and we'll talk soon.
Okay, thank you very much.
Thank you.
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