April 16, 2025 • 29 mins
Shannon Merenstein takes us on a fascinating journey through the transformative power of creativity and play in childhood education. Drawing from her rich background as an artist, educator, founder of Hatch Partners in Play, and co-author of "Collage Workshop for Kids," Shannon dismantles the myth that creativity is an innate gift rather than a muscle requiring regular exercise.
What happens when we create spaces where children direct their own learning experiences? The results are nothing short of remarkable. Shannon shares stories from her PlayLab initiative, where veteran teachers were initially uncertain about stepping back from their traditional roles. They discovered something profound—children previously struggling in structured academic settings often thrive when given the freedom to engage in open-ended play. "Play gives children an opportunity to show their classroom community the best version of themselves," Shannon explains, highlighting how these experiences reveal dimensions of children's capabilities that remain hidden during traditional instruction.
The conversation explores how play naturally integrates academic concepts as children create restaurant menus with pricing, write notes to friends, or test mathematical concepts through building. Shannon describes her innovative "play journaling" practice, where children reflect on their play experiences through non-assessed writing—creating a powerful longitudinal study of each child's growth. Perhaps most compelling for administrators and education stakeholders, Shannon shares evidence that children who engage in regular open-ended play with materials like magnetic tiles and blocks consistently outperform their peers on geometry assessments.
Ready to transform your teaching or parenting approach? Listen to discover how creating space for creativity and play might be the most important gift you can offer the children in your life. The future of education isn't about abandoning academics—it's about finding the beautiful intersection where play enhances learning in ways traditional instruction alone cannot achieve.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Colley (00:12):
all right, here we are another episode shifted
podcast coming to you from coldquebec.
Um, the snow just never seemsto stop, but we are moving
forward with it and we'rethinking spring, because I think
it's already spring right, orit should be soon.
Anyway, today I have ShannonMerenstein coming in from the
(00:33):
Creative Project and also theHatch Partners in Play she works
with, also an author, wrote agreat book called Collage
Workshop for Kids, which youshould definitely check out, and
today we're going to talk abouther work and what she does with
creativity and play and art andkids, which I think is going to
be fascinating for ourlisteners.
(00:54):
And Shannon, before we start,thank you very much for
accepting this.
First off, this is a realpleasure to talk to you.
I've been following you forever.
This is a real pleasure to talkto you.
I've been following you forever.
Well, since the dawn of youknow.
It's been going, I guess fiveyears, five, six, seven years,
your project.
Shannon Merenstein (01:26):
Yeah, yeah, we started Hatch actually about
nine years ago when, just whenmy older son was just a little
baby, so on his first birthdaywe opened Hatch, which was a
studio, a physical space here inPittsburgh and has evolved into
many and morphed into manydifferent projects.
And that also kind of gave wayto a collaboration with my good
friend and partner at thecreativity project, Bar Ruchi,
and we've written these twosister books together, as you
mentioned Collage Workshop forKids and a Bar's book Art
(01:49):
Workshop.
And we have been working withteachers and caregivers really
all over the world in the pastfive years or so since the
beginning of the pandemic,really encouraging folks to
prioritize play and creativityin their classrooms and at home.
Chris Colley (02:11):
Absolutely.
And, shannon, how did you getto where you are now?
Like, what were some importantmoments in your journey so far
in your career that brought youto what you're doing today?
Shannon Merenstein (02:35):
Yeah, so I have always been a maker and an
artist since a young child.
My parents agreed to let me goto art school in New York if I
would tack on somethingpractical.
So I studied painting at PrattInstitute in New York and I also
ended up studying art educationthere, and so I worked with
(02:58):
some amazing art teachers in twoNew York City public schools,
one in Brooklyn and one inHarlem, and, of course you know,
studied with some amazingprofessors who introduced me to
the Reggio Emilia approach, toMontessori, to all sorts of
methods and pedagogicalapproaches that really honor the
(03:23):
child and their instincts andideas, especially around making,
and I really enjoyed thatprogram.
I came back to Pittsburgh,where I'm from, pittsburgh,
pennsylvania shortly after thatand took a teaching position, um
(03:45):
, at a, at a local school whereI taught art on the cart Uh, if,
if listeners are familiar,that's, that's where the um
where you roam without a room umvisiting all of the classrooms
in the school.
Um, I did that for almost adecade and when I had my first
(04:06):
child, I was really wonderingwhat it would be like to be able
to stretch my wings a littlebit and be able to really
implement some of the practices,especially around process art
and open-ended play, that I wasreally craving to do in the
school system.
(04:27):
But, you know, was sort ofconfined in many ways by
objectives and standards and,you know, a call to integrate
sort of the more academicsubjects even into our art
curriculum subjects, even intoour art curriculum, and which is
(04:49):
wonderful in many ways, butalso was limiting in some ways.
And what I wanted to create wasa space where, where children
could guide their own experience, they could be the decision
makers in that studio space,they could decide how they would
combine the materials theywould be supported in, you know,
moving around the space as theywished, really having some
(05:12):
agency, and I have just foundthat young children really don't
get very much opportunity to dothat, and so that space was
very special and it eventuallykind of morphed into other
projects and other work aroundthe same time, kind of 2021 or
so.
You know I was starting tocrave the community of being in
(05:37):
schools again to be with otherteachers, teachers, and also to
kind of legitimize some of thepractices that we were exploring
in the studio space byintegrating them back into the
schools.
And so I put a call out thereasking if there were any public
(05:58):
school teachers in our area whowould be interested in kind of
taking a risk area who would beinterested in kind of taking a
risk in embedding some of thoseopen-ended play practices within
the context of their school day.
And I was literally led in theback door by this amazing team
of kindergarten and first gradeteachers who told me that they
(06:20):
would let their principal know afew months into the project how
things were going.
Get it going.
Yeah kind of give him a senseof you know how positive they
knew it would be.
You know how beneficial theyknew it would be for the
children who were just comingback to school after almost 18
months of, you know, virtual onand off learning through that
(06:44):
first year and a half of thepandemic.
So that sort of leads me towhere I work.
Chris Colley (06:53):
That's an interesting journey you've been
on so far.
I mean it looks so bright, thefuture as well, with a few
caveats as we go through, Iguess.
One of the first questions Ilove your story and I sometimes
have a problem explainingcreativity.
You know, teachers sometimes,when they come into our space
(07:15):
and we're about to do, you know,a workshop on, you know, again,
we tend to like doingopen-ended as well and they
always have well, not always.
Some of them have this ideathat they're not creative.
Right, that you're eithercreative or you're not.
I guess it's kind of like afixed mindset versus a growth
mindset.
Can you talk to us a little bitabout?
Shannon Merenstein (07:41):
creativity what it is.
How do we develop it?
Kind of the nuts and bolts ofit a little bit, yeah.
I mean, Bart and I often talkabout creativity as a muscle
that needs to be flexed often,exercised often, and none of us
are without it.
But it can get lost along theway, depending on our you know,
the experiences that we have aschildren, as adolescents, even
(08:04):
as adults, in being told thatthere is one right way or that
creativity means that you're atechnically excellent artist, or
creativity means that you knowjust how things go together, or
that you have you know lots andlots of ideas.
(08:24):
But I think that creativity is alens really that we look
through the world with, andcreativity and play to me are so
intertwined.
The play is sort of theactivity of being creative, of
being generative, whether that's, you know, building worlds,
whether that's telling a story,whether that's you know
(08:46):
combining materials and making asculpture, making you know an
idea, sharing an idea withsomebody else.
I think that all of those arecreative ways of being, and then
it's just you know.
I think creativity is a way ofapproaching the world, you know,
thinking flexibly, the abilityto kind of see the possibility
(09:10):
in something and to express that.
And yeah, I think it's a musclethat needs to be flexed, and
the more opportunities we have,the more we feel confident in
that creativity, I think.
Chris Colley (09:27):
Great, great.
And you mentioned theconnection to play, which I
totally agree with you.
And again, play is alsosomething that seems to be a bit
misunderstood.
Could you define what play so?
Creativity?
I love it is something likewhen I bring people in and we
practice, I say is brain?
(09:47):
You know creativity gym, braingym, you know where they have to
practice it.
It doesn't just come now.
You're not just going to startplaying Mozart or drawing
Picasso, like it just doesn'thappen that way, like in
anything right, you don't starthitting home runs if you've
never picked the bat up Right.
Where's the intersectionbetween creativity and play?
Shannon Merenstein (10:09):
meet one another and play meet one
another.
Yeah, I mean I, I.
There are so many definitionsfor play, but for in my context
anyway, in my work with childrenand with teachers, I really
think of play as this selfmotivated, self driven
experience that we're havingthat, you know, can get us into
(10:31):
a flow state or it can producenew ideas.
It can, you know, build thisconnection with somebody else
that we didn't know we had.
It can help us know aboutourselves, and play looks so
different for every person, theway that I, you know I've
thought about this a lot,especially as my own children
are growing up.
You know they play with theirwhole bodies, they play in big
(10:52):
ways.
You know they play with theirwhole bodies, they play in big
ways.
You know they want to playoutside, they want to be outside
, they want to be exploring.
I played as a child verydifferently.
I loved, you know I was verymuch into, you know, art making
and paper dolls and mixingpotions in my bathroom and all
sorts of you know sort ofindependent play.
(11:13):
That's just so different thanhow my own children engage with
the world and that has helped meshape the programs and kind of
guidance that we offer so much,because I think the most
important sort of aspect of playfor me is the choice and agency
(11:37):
that the player has in thatexperience.
And when I talk aboutopen-ended play, you know that's
very different than you knowsay, doing a puzzle, for example
, or playing a board game withrules, or even some of the
recess games that you know,sports or other play activities.
(12:00):
I think open-ended play, youknow, can take on so many
different forms.
Of course it might have rulesor boundaries that are created
by the players, but it's aboutiteration, it's about innovation
, it's about trying things.
(12:26):
Testing things out might cometo mind immediately when we talk
to teachers or other adults,parents or administrators who
kind of have a bird's eye viewof recess or what other sorts of
you know, other kinds of play,like I mentioned, kind of yeah,
for sure, for sure, and withwith the demands of school.
Chris Colley (12:48):
You know the stuff they have to deliver and I
guess the knowledge they have to, you know, engage with and
share.
Does that conflict with?
I guess?
My question is this canopen-ended play or open-ended
projects or activities beincorporated in a classroom that
(13:09):
is very structured with thecontent that they have to
deliver?
And, if so, can you offer someexamples or some tips and tricks
on how a teacher, seeing thatthey want that to happen more in
their class, how do they startopening up their lessons to the
students?
Shannon Merenstein (13:28):
Yeah.
So I think you're hitting onsomething here is that the first
step is that that teacher hasto at least have some curiosity
around what it might be like toincorporate some more of this
open-ended play or project workin the classroom.
(13:50):
I think that curiosity andopenness is kind of the critical
first step, because when weengage in these experiences
there is a shift in the adult'srole in the classroom and I
think that that can beintimidating or even a little
(14:15):
scary for many educators.
And the project that I wasmentioning earlier Play Lab
where we began this work withthree veteran kindergarten and
first grade educators one of mypartners, a first grade teacher,
jerome Morris he's beenteaching for over 30 plus years
in Pittsburgh public schoolswanted to know what is my role
(14:39):
in this in-play lab, which is,you know, this protected period
of open-ended play where thechildren are really deciding how
they're going to play, withwhom for how long, and the
teacher is kind of curating theenvironment a little bit to
offer these choices.
But other than that, you know,the children are really driving
this play experience.
And so he was asking again andagain what is my role in this?
(15:01):
You know, what should I bedoing during this time, and I
think that that has come up.
So now, you know, with dozens,dozens and dozens of teachers,
what is my role in this?
What should I be doing?
Because many educators are soused to, you know, kind of being
the sage on the stage anddirecting the experience and
(15:23):
guiding it the way, and, youknow, really being a performer
in so many ways too, and so itcan feel uncomfortable at first
to take on a quieter role, amore, you know, as a researcher,
as an observer.
But what we have found again andagain when we're having these
(15:43):
conversations, reflectiveconversations about play with
the teachers that we work with,is that play gives children an
opportunity.
It gives the adult anopportunity to see the children
in much more multidimensionalways.
I can't tell you how many timesI've had conversations with
teachers who, you know, describechildren in really
(16:06):
deficit-based ways, you know,about their academic selves, and
again and again and again,teachers are so surprised by
what they learn about thechildren when they see them
engaged in their preferred wayof learning through play.
(16:27):
And that has been reallypowerful for me to be able to
then begin to build this casefor play, because you know one
of my partners in Detroit.
Her name is Carla Shalaby.
She's the author ofTroublemakers, but she also
works in with Detroit publicschools through the University
of Michigan and she has said tome so many times you know there
(16:47):
is no denying that the behaviorissues that we're seeing in
schools, the mental healthissues that we're seeing, are
significant.
They can be just totallydisruptive to teaching and
learning.
It can throw off the entire day.
Teachers are exhausted,administrators are sort of at a
(17:08):
loss for what to do about this,at a loss for what to do about
this, and PlayLab gives childrenthis opportunity to show their
classroom community the bestversion of themselves in that
context.
So there's a huge opportunityfor teachers, in open-ended play
(17:28):
, to actually become observersand researchers and learn about
their students and then use thateither to sustain the
relationship and the energy thatit takes, you know, throughout
the rest of the day, or to eveninform their instruction in some
ways, you know, based on theinterests and ideas of of the
(17:48):
children.
Chris Colley (17:50):
I love that.
Shannon Merenstein (17:51):
Yeah.
Chris Colley (17:52):
That's it's, it's cool, like, I remember that too,
like, and teachers, if I gointo their classrooms and we do
these open-ended, they're likeI've never seen that kid like
that before.
Or that kid, I've never seenthem so engaged.
They're always, or they'llpoint them out ahead of time.
We'll have to watch for thisone and this one and in the end
those guys become the models ofthe play and others watch
(18:19):
because they're not afraid, Ifind you know of, of error, like
we're so error focused all thetime.
And in free play and open-endedplay, I mean you can't, there's
no, there's no mistakes, right,you're doing what feels natural
to you and you're directingyour play.
Shannon Merenstein (18:35):
Yeah, so many opportunities to correct
your mistakes If you feel thatthey are mistakes, right, like I
think you know, in much moredirect, you know, didactic
instruction.
There's really no opportunityto go over something again and
again, and again, and that's howI mean, that is how we learn
and that's something thathappens in play I you know,
(18:56):
another sort of facet of thecase for open-ended play in the
context of a very traditionalschool day is that you know
another sort of facet of thecase for open-ended play in the
context of a very traditionalschool day is that, you know,
this gives children a chance toactually apply what they're
learning holistically.
They also see in real timechildren taking the concepts
(19:25):
that they're learning in theirmath and literacy blocks and
applying them.
You know, when they're making arestaurant and they want to
make a menu and they are addingpricing and they want their
friends to make money so thatthey can pay for the food that
they've created in the kitchenarea.
They're integrating every skill, every concept that they're
(19:47):
acquiring.
Young children that we work withkindergarten, first grade,
second grade.
They want to apply those skills.
They want to be able to usethese new skills that they have
writing friends' names, usethese new skills that they have.
You know, writing friends names.
There are so many childrenactually we've we've seen use
this open-ended play time toactually, like you know, walk
(20:08):
around the room copying some ofthe words or like you know
testing, testing, testing thesemath concepts out in their
journals and the teachers arelike, is that play?
But it is, it's like it's, it'sjust just, it's the this chance
to decide, like, how I'm goingto spend this time.
And they really are seeing.
I did write down and you know,I love, I love getting the
(20:32):
question how do we build thecase for this?
Because you know we'recollecting all of all of this
evidence that it actually hashuge, huge benefits socially and
emotionally and academically.
But one of the kindergartenteachers that I was just talking
to said that when you know theythey do this kind of mid year
math assessment.
It's very focused aroundgeometry and shapes that the
(20:56):
children who had PlayLab thisyear, who had a chance to build
with magnet tiles, had a chanceto work with wooden blocks, have
, you know, really likephysically know these shapes and
this geometry and play thisgeometry, have performed better
than ever on this mid-yearassessment.
(21:18):
And I mean to me, okay, likethat's great, but to an
administrator, like thatactually matters.
You know these outcomes domatter, and so you know, I don't
think it has to be one or theother.
I think that this, just this,enhances the curriculum in so
(21:39):
many positive ways.
Chris Colley (21:41):
Oh for sure, you know.
It kind of leads me a bit tojust the development processes
that our youngest learners gothrough and that they have to go
about it naturally at their ownpace and they're not all going
to be at the same pace.
So if we're trying to retrofitsome lesson or everybody's doing
the same thing to all thesedifferent levels of kids, I mean
(22:05):
you can get discouraged, right,because you success or whatever
success might mean for whateverthat activity is, might not
show itself.
But then you kick open thedoors to free play and then you
know it starts to transform anddevelop those skills.
Because I do find that skilldevelopment in our youngest
(22:25):
learners, as you alluded to is,is getting trickier, as you know
, with mental.
You know mental health and justwhat covid kind of instilled in
some of these kids is as, asthey're going through the system
now you can still feel thatwave of, you know, do it for me.
You know, like, take care of me, like I don't want to invest in
(22:48):
anything that because you'lljust give it to me anyway, kind
of passive learning almost,which is the opposite of what
play really um should instill ina student.
Shannon Merenstein (22:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think that play giveseducators an opportunity to
give children the reins in termsof their pacing.
You know, something that'sreally been uncomfortable for
some educators is allowing achild to return to the same kind
(23:22):
of play every single day.
You know, when they have aregular play lab every day and
we talk so much about how thatgives children such an
opportunity to become thisexpert and to become really
confident in this area.
There was a child who every daywas building the kind of the
same structure with themagnetiles, just this very small
, you know kind of handheldstructure.
(23:44):
And you know, several times histeacher asked, like you know,
should I try to push him to liketry something else?
Should I, you know, see if youknow he wants to play the group?
And we just said, you know,like, at every other part of the
day, you know he has to keep upwith you and that's first of
(24:07):
all so exhausting for a teacherto wrangle, you know, 25 or 35
and six-year-olds by themselvesfor the entire day and try to
keep everyone in the same place.
So we find this is a moment ofjoy for the educators as well,
to really just you knoweducators as well, to really,
just, you know, be able to, youknow, be surrounded by so much
learning, so much activity inthe classroom.
(24:28):
But, yeah, but giving childrena chance to pace themselves, you
know, and allow that learningto unfold.
Another example this child.
We have this practice calledplay journaling which is, you
know, at the end of the playexperience, giving children a
chance to kind of write and drawabout their experience and just
(24:49):
have a moment of reflection, acompletely non-assessed writing
opportunity, which is great foryoung, you know, young learners,
to just put pen to paper andnot be afraid of, you know, it
being graded or corrected.
It's just, you know, it's theirspace.
They can write, they can draw,they can dictate a story to an
(25:09):
adult.
But this.
Chris Colley (25:14):
I like that idea too.
That's a great idea.
Shannon Merenstein (25:17):
Yeah, one child was just, you know,
experimenting with mark makingfor weeks.
You know, the teacher wasgetting a little impatient, like
when is he going to, you know?
When is he going to draw whathe was playing, you know?
And because even when we say anopen ended activity, like
there's still, we're all sobeholden to what is you?
Chris Colley (25:36):
know what is familiar and uh, it's like goes
against her.
Yeah, when is he?
Shannon Merenstein (25:42):
gonna start?
When is he gonna develop this?
You know, visual literacy?
Um, and it took a really longtime, I did.
He just drew these circles overand over again and we just, you
know, we encouraged her.
We have such a greatrelationship with so many of our
partner teachers but she saidjust just wait and see.
You know, just let him let itbe for now and we'll see.
(26:03):
And surely enough, you know,when he was ready, maybe it was
February, maybe it was March,but he, you know, started
combining some of those shapes.
He started saying this is me inthe.
You know, this is me playing.
You know, these are block.
This is the block structure Imade.
I played in the kitchen today.
You know, these are block.
Chris Colley (26:34):
This is the block structure I made.
I played in the kitchen today,like those are, those were huge
leaps for the child and there issuch a satisfaction in seeing
that growth.
But seeing that it happenedgood, like I'm always trying to
figure out, like so we've donethis play, and like I take
photos and videos and we sit andtalk about it and how it felt.
But I never thought of justdoing a journal like that with
them so they could just kind oflike draw things out, just you
(26:54):
know, no stakes to it, just likehave them for them, them their
reflection purposes.
I really like that idea.
Shannon Merenstein (27:02):
I might, yeah that practice started as a
way to, um, you know, convinceadministrators that we were
spending this time wisely, thatwe were incorporating, um, you
know, these new, newly acquiredliteracy skills.
But, um, it has actually becomea really powerful practice
because it communicates tochildren that you know, this
(27:24):
work that you were doing, thisplay that you were doing,
actually matters so much thatwe're going to spend time
thinking about it and thechildren are never required to
share.
But we do offer lots ofdifferent ways.
You know we share it.
You know, through thecreativity project, especially
with educators, about how tokind of document these play
experiences.
But how to bring children andtheir voice into, you know, the
(27:48):
sharing out of thatdocumentation so we might show
children photos and they mightrespond to it and, you know,
dictate what was happening inthat picture, in the video.
Chris Colley (27:56):
But the journals kind of give this longitudinal
study of the child's experienceover the year, all this trace
evidence of of this child'sgrowth and thought process, and
I love that.
I love that I'm gonna borrowthat and try this.
Shannon Merenstein (28:13):
Some cool examples after after awesome,
awesome.
Chris Colley (28:17):
Well, shan, this has been fascinating.
Um Love your stories.
I love your journey so far inthis crazy educational world
that we choose to be in, butsuch good reflections for us up
here listeners.
I really appreciate yourinsight into play and creativity
(28:39):
.
It's always these subjects thatcome up in the work that we do,
so I love your perspective onit and you've thrown out some
great seeds that will start togrow around here.
So thank you for sharing someof your insight.
Shannon Merenstein (28:52):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's been a pleasure.
Chris Colley (28:56):
Absolutely, and I mean it feels like we need to
continue this conversation, sowe'll let some time pass and
maybe we can um continue thisbecause it's I've really enjoyed
it a lot, thank you absolutely.
Shannon Merenstein (29:08):
Thank you so much, chris.
all right, here we are another episode shifted
podcast coming to you from coldquebec.
Um, the snow just never seemsto stop, but we are moving
forward with it and we'rethinking spring, because I think
it's already spring right, orit should be soon.
Anyway, today I have ShannonMerenstein coming in from the
(00:33):
Creative Project and also theHatch Partners in Play she works
with, also an author, wrote agreat book called Collage
Workshop for Kids, which youshould definitely check out, and
today we're going to talk abouther work and what she does with
creativity and play and art andkids, which I think is going to
be fascinating for ourlisteners.
(00:54):
And Shannon, before we start,thank you very much for
accepting this.
First off, this is a realpleasure to talk to you.
I've been following you forever.
This is a real pleasure to talkto you.
I've been following you forever.
Well, since the dawn of youknow.
It's been going, I guess fiveyears, five, six, seven years,
your project.
Shannon Merenstein (01:26):
Yeah, yeah, we started Hatch actually about
nine years ago when, just whenmy older son was just a little
baby, so on his first birthdaywe opened Hatch, which was a
studio, a physical space here inPittsburgh and has evolved into
many and morphed into manydifferent projects.
And that also kind of gave wayto a collaboration with my good
friend and partner at thecreativity project, Bar Ruchi,
and we've written these twosister books together, as you
mentioned Collage Workshop forKids and a Bar's book Art
(01:49):
Workshop.
And we have been working withteachers and caregivers really
all over the world in the pastfive years or so since the
beginning of the pandemic,really encouraging folks to
prioritize play and creativityin their classrooms and at home.
Chris Colley (02:11):
Absolutely.
And, shannon, how did you getto where you are now?
Like, what were some importantmoments in your journey so far
in your career that brought youto what you're doing today?
Shannon Merenstein (02:35):
Yeah, so I have always been a maker and an
artist since a young child.
My parents agreed to let me goto art school in New York if I
would tack on somethingpractical.
So I studied painting at PrattInstitute in New York and I also
ended up studying art educationthere, and so I worked with
(02:58):
some amazing art teachers in twoNew York City public schools,
one in Brooklyn and one inHarlem, and, of course you know,
studied with some amazingprofessors who introduced me to
the Reggio Emilia approach, toMontessori, to all sorts of
methods and pedagogicalapproaches that really honor the
(03:23):
child and their instincts andideas, especially around making,
and I really enjoyed thatprogram.
I came back to Pittsburgh,where I'm from, pittsburgh,
pennsylvania shortly after thatand took a teaching position, um
(03:45):
, at a, at a local school whereI taught art on the cart Uh, if,
if listeners are familiar,that's, that's where the um
where you roam without a room umvisiting all of the classrooms
in the school.
Um, I did that for almost adecade and when I had my first
(04:06):
child, I was really wonderingwhat it would be like to be able
to stretch my wings a littlebit and be able to really
implement some of the practices,especially around process art
and open-ended play, that I wasreally craving to do in the
school system.
(04:27):
But, you know, was sort ofconfined in many ways by
objectives and standards and,you know, a call to integrate
sort of the more academicsubjects even into our art
curriculum subjects, even intoour art curriculum, and which is
(04:49):
wonderful in many ways, butalso was limiting in some ways.
And what I wanted to create wasa space where, where children
could guide their own experience, they could be the decision
makers in that studio space,they could decide how they would
combine the materials theywould be supported in, you know,
moving around the space as theywished, really having some
(05:12):
agency, and I have just foundthat young children really don't
get very much opportunity to dothat, and so that space was
very special and it eventuallykind of morphed into other
projects and other work aroundthe same time, kind of 2021 or
so.
You know I was starting tocrave the community of being in
(05:37):
schools again to be with otherteachers, teachers, and also to
kind of legitimize some of thepractices that we were exploring
in the studio space byintegrating them back into the
schools.
And so I put a call out thereasking if there were any public
(05:58):
school teachers in our area whowould be interested in kind of
taking a risk area who would beinterested in kind of taking a
risk in embedding some of thoseopen-ended play practices within
the context of their school day.
And I was literally led in theback door by this amazing team
of kindergarten and first gradeteachers who told me that they
(06:20):
would let their principal know afew months into the project how
things were going.
Get it going.
Yeah kind of give him a senseof you know how positive they
knew it would be.
You know how beneficial theyknew it would be for the
children who were just comingback to school after almost 18
months of, you know, virtual onand off learning through that
(06:44):
first year and a half of thepandemic.
So that sort of leads me towhere I work.
Chris Colley (06:53):
That's an interesting journey you've been
on so far.
I mean it looks so bright, thefuture as well, with a few
caveats as we go through, Iguess.
One of the first questions Ilove your story and I sometimes
have a problem explainingcreativity.
You know, teachers sometimes,when they come into our space
(07:15):
and we're about to do, you know,a workshop on, you know, again,
we tend to like doingopen-ended as well and they
always have well, not always.
Some of them have this ideathat they're not creative.
Right, that you're eithercreative or you're not.
I guess it's kind of like afixed mindset versus a growth
mindset.
Can you talk to us a little bitabout?
Shannon Merenstein (07:41):
creativity what it is.
How do we develop it?
Kind of the nuts and bolts ofit a little bit, yeah.
I mean, Bart and I often talkabout creativity as a muscle
that needs to be flexed often,exercised often, and none of us
are without it.
But it can get lost along theway, depending on our you know,
the experiences that we have aschildren, as adolescents, even
(08:04):
as adults, in being told thatthere is one right way or that
creativity means that you're atechnically excellent artist, or
creativity means that you knowjust how things go together, or
that you have you know lots andlots of ideas.
(08:24):
But I think that creativity is alens really that we look
through the world with, andcreativity and play to me are so
intertwined.
The play is sort of theactivity of being creative, of
being generative, whether that's, you know, building worlds,
whether that's telling a story,whether that's you know
(08:46):
combining materials and making asculpture, making you know an
idea, sharing an idea withsomebody else.
I think that all of those arecreative ways of being, and then
it's just you know.
I think creativity is a way ofapproaching the world, you know,
thinking flexibly, the abilityto kind of see the possibility
(09:10):
in something and to express that.
And yeah, I think it's a musclethat needs to be flexed, and
the more opportunities we have,the more we feel confident in
that creativity, I think.
Chris Colley (09:27):
Great, great.
And you mentioned theconnection to play, which I
totally agree with you.
And again, play is alsosomething that seems to be a bit
misunderstood.
Could you define what play so?
Creativity?
I love it is something likewhen I bring people in and we
practice, I say is brain?
(09:47):
You know creativity gym, braingym, you know where they have to
practice it.
It doesn't just come now.
You're not just going to startplaying Mozart or drawing
Picasso, like it just doesn'thappen that way, like in
anything right, you don't starthitting home runs if you've
never picked the bat up Right.
Where's the intersectionbetween creativity and play?
Shannon Merenstein (10:09):
meet one another and play meet one
another.
Yeah, I mean I, I.
There are so many definitionsfor play, but for in my context
anyway, in my work with childrenand with teachers, I really
think of play as this selfmotivated, self driven
experience that we're havingthat, you know, can get us into
(10:31):
a flow state or it can producenew ideas.
It can, you know, build thisconnection with somebody else
that we didn't know we had.
It can help us know aboutourselves, and play looks so
different for every person, theway that I, you know I've
thought about this a lot,especially as my own children
are growing up.
You know they play with theirwhole bodies, they play in big
(10:52):
ways.
You know they play with theirwhole bodies, they play in big
ways.
You know they want to playoutside, they want to be outside
, they want to be exploring.
I played as a child verydifferently.
I loved, you know I was verymuch into, you know, art making
and paper dolls and mixingpotions in my bathroom and all
sorts of you know sort ofindependent play.
(11:13):
That's just so different thanhow my own children engage with
the world and that has helped meshape the programs and kind of
guidance that we offer so much,because I think the most
important sort of aspect of playfor me is the choice and agency
(11:37):
that the player has in thatexperience.
And when I talk aboutopen-ended play, you know that's
very different than you knowsay, doing a puzzle, for example
, or playing a board game withrules, or even some of the
recess games that you know,sports or other play activities.
(12:00):
I think open-ended play, youknow, can take on so many
different forms.
Of course it might have rulesor boundaries that are created
by the players, but it's aboutiteration, it's about innovation
, it's about trying things.
(12:26):
Testing things out might cometo mind immediately when we talk
to teachers or other adults,parents or administrators who
kind of have a bird's eye viewof recess or what other sorts of
you know, other kinds of play,like I mentioned, kind of yeah,
for sure, for sure, and withwith the demands of school.
Chris Colley (12:48):
You know the stuff they have to deliver and I
guess the knowledge they have to, you know, engage with and
share.
Does that conflict with?
I guess?
My question is this canopen-ended play or open-ended
projects or activities beincorporated in a classroom that
(13:09):
is very structured with thecontent that they have to
deliver?
And, if so, can you offer someexamples or some tips and tricks
on how a teacher, seeing thatthey want that to happen more in
their class, how do they startopening up their lessons to the
students?
Shannon Merenstein (13:28):
Yeah.
So I think you're hitting onsomething here is that the first
step is that that teacher hasto at least have some curiosity
around what it might be like toincorporate some more of this
open-ended play or project workin the classroom.
(13:50):
I think that curiosity andopenness is kind of the critical
first step, because when weengage in these experiences
there is a shift in the adult'srole in the classroom and I
think that that can beintimidating or even a little
(14:15):
scary for many educators.
And the project that I wasmentioning earlier Play Lab
where we began this work withthree veteran kindergarten and
first grade educators one of mypartners, a first grade teacher,
jerome Morris he's beenteaching for over 30 plus years
in Pittsburgh public schoolswanted to know what is my role
(14:39):
in this in-play lab, which is,you know, this protected period
of open-ended play where thechildren are really deciding how
they're going to play, withwhom for how long, and the
teacher is kind of curating theenvironment a little bit to
offer these choices.
But other than that, you know,the children are really driving
this play experience.
And so he was asking again andagain what is my role in this?
(15:01):
You know, what should I bedoing during this time, and I
think that that has come up.
So now, you know, with dozens,dozens and dozens of teachers,
what is my role in this?
What should I be doing?
Because many educators are soused to, you know, kind of being
the sage on the stage anddirecting the experience and
(15:23):
guiding it the way, and, youknow, really being a performer
in so many ways too, and so itcan feel uncomfortable at first
to take on a quieter role, amore, you know, as a researcher,
as an observer.
But what we have found again andagain when we're having these
(15:43):
conversations, reflectiveconversations about play with
the teachers that we work with,is that play gives children an
opportunity.
It gives the adult anopportunity to see the children
in much more multidimensionalways.
I can't tell you how many timesI've had conversations with
teachers who, you know, describechildren in really
(16:06):
deficit-based ways, you know,about their academic selves, and
again and again and again,teachers are so surprised by
what they learn about thechildren when they see them
engaged in their preferred wayof learning through play.
(16:27):
And that has been reallypowerful for me to be able to
then begin to build this casefor play, because you know one
of my partners in Detroit.
Her name is Carla Shalaby.
She's the author ofTroublemakers, but she also
works in with Detroit publicschools through the University
of Michigan and she has said tome so many times you know there
(16:47):
is no denying that the behaviorissues that we're seeing in
schools, the mental healthissues that we're seeing, are
significant.
They can be just totallydisruptive to teaching and
learning.
It can throw off the entire day.
Teachers are exhausted,administrators are sort of at a
(17:08):
loss for what to do about this,at a loss for what to do about
this, and PlayLab gives childrenthis opportunity to show their
classroom community the bestversion of themselves in that
context.
So there's a huge opportunityfor teachers, in open-ended play
(17:28):
, to actually become observersand researchers and learn about
their students and then use thateither to sustain the
relationship and the energy thatit takes, you know, throughout
the rest of the day, or to eveninform their instruction in some
ways, you know, based on theinterests and ideas of of the
(17:48):
children.
Chris Colley (17:50):
I love that.
Shannon Merenstein (17:51):
Yeah.
Chris Colley (17:52):
That's it's, it's cool, like, I remember that too,
like, and teachers, if I gointo their classrooms and we do
these open-ended, they're likeI've never seen that kid like
that before.
Or that kid, I've never seenthem so engaged.
They're always, or they'llpoint them out ahead of time.
We'll have to watch for thisone and this one and in the end
those guys become the models ofthe play and others watch
(18:19):
because they're not afraid, Ifind you know of, of error, like
we're so error focused all thetime.
And in free play and open-endedplay, I mean you can't, there's
no, there's no mistakes, right,you're doing what feels natural
to you and you're directingyour play.
Shannon Merenstein (18:35):
Yeah, so many opportunities to correct
your mistakes If you feel thatthey are mistakes, right, like I
think you know, in much moredirect, you know, didactic
instruction.
There's really no opportunityto go over something again and
again, and again, and that's howI mean, that is how we learn
and that's something thathappens in play I you know,
(18:56):
another sort of facet of thecase for open-ended play in the
context of a very traditionalschool day is that you know
another sort of facet of thecase for open-ended play in the
context of a very traditionalschool day is that, you know,
this gives children a chance toactually apply what they're
learning holistically.
They also see in real timechildren taking the concepts
(19:25):
that they're learning in theirmath and literacy blocks and
applying them.
You know, when they're making arestaurant and they want to
make a menu and they are addingpricing and they want their
friends to make money so thatthey can pay for the food that
they've created in the kitchenarea.
They're integrating every skill, every concept that they're
(19:47):
acquiring.
Young children that we work withkindergarten, first grade,
second grade.
They want to apply those skills.
They want to be able to usethese new skills that they have
writing friends' names, usethese new skills that they have.
You know, writing friends names.
There are so many childrenactually we've we've seen use
this open-ended play time toactually, like you know, walk
(20:08):
around the room copying some ofthe words or like you know
testing, testing, testing thesemath concepts out in their
journals and the teachers arelike, is that play?
But it is, it's like it's, it'sjust just, it's the this chance
to decide, like, how I'm goingto spend this time.
And they really are seeing.
I did write down and you know,I love, I love getting the
(20:32):
question how do we build thecase for this?
Because you know we'recollecting all of all of this
evidence that it actually hashuge, huge benefits socially and
emotionally and academically.
But one of the kindergartenteachers that I was just talking
to said that when you know theythey do this kind of mid year
math assessment.
It's very focused aroundgeometry and shapes that the
(20:56):
children who had PlayLab thisyear, who had a chance to build
with magnet tiles, had a chanceto work with wooden blocks, have
, you know, really likephysically know these shapes and
this geometry and play thisgeometry, have performed better
than ever on this mid-yearassessment.
(21:18):
And I mean to me, okay, likethat's great, but to an
administrator, like thatactually matters.
You know these outcomes domatter, and so you know, I don't
think it has to be one or theother.
I think that this, just this,enhances the curriculum in so
(21:39):
many positive ways.
Chris Colley (21:41):
Oh for sure, you know.
It kind of leads me a bit tojust the development processes
that our youngest learners gothrough and that they have to go
about it naturally at their ownpace and they're not all going
to be at the same pace.
So if we're trying to retrofitsome lesson or everybody's doing
the same thing to all thesedifferent levels of kids, I mean
(22:05):
you can get discouraged, right,because you success or whatever
success might mean for whateverthat activity is, might not
show itself.
But then you kick open thedoors to free play and then you
know it starts to transform anddevelop those skills.
Because I do find that skilldevelopment in our youngest
(22:25):
learners, as you alluded to is,is getting trickier, as you know
, with mental.
You know mental health and justwhat covid kind of instilled in
some of these kids is as, asthey're going through the system
now you can still feel thatwave of, you know, do it for me.
You know, like, take care of me, like I don't want to invest in
(22:48):
anything that because you'lljust give it to me anyway, kind
of passive learning almost,which is the opposite of what
play really um should instill ina student.
Shannon Merenstein (22:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think that play giveseducators an opportunity to
give children the reins in termsof their pacing.
You know, something that'sreally been uncomfortable for
some educators is allowing achild to return to the same kind
(23:22):
of play every single day.
You know, when they have aregular play lab every day and
we talk so much about how thatgives children such an
opportunity to become thisexpert and to become really
confident in this area.
There was a child who every daywas building the kind of the
same structure with themagnetiles, just this very small
, you know kind of handheldstructure.
(23:44):
And you know, several times histeacher asked, like you know,
should I try to push him to liketry something else?
Should I, you know, see if youknow he wants to play the group?
And we just said, you know,like, at every other part of the
day, you know he has to keep upwith you and that's first of
(24:07):
all so exhausting for a teacherto wrangle, you know, 25 or 35
and six-year-olds by themselvesfor the entire day and try to
keep everyone in the same place.
So we find this is a moment ofjoy for the educators as well,
to really just you knoweducators as well, to really,
just, you know, be able to, youknow, be surrounded by so much
learning, so much activity inthe classroom.
(24:28):
But, yeah, but giving childrena chance to pace themselves, you
know, and allow that learningto unfold.
Another example this child.
We have this practice calledplay journaling which is, you
know, at the end of the playexperience, giving children a
chance to kind of write and drawabout their experience and just
(24:49):
have a moment of reflection, acompletely non-assessed writing
opportunity, which is great foryoung, you know, young learners,
to just put pen to paper andnot be afraid of, you know, it
being graded or corrected.
It's just, you know, it's theirspace.
They can write, they can draw,they can dictate a story to an
(25:09):
adult.
But this.
Chris Colley (25:14):
I like that idea too.
That's a great idea.
Shannon Merenstein (25:17):
Yeah, one child was just, you know,
experimenting with mark makingfor weeks.
You know, the teacher wasgetting a little impatient, like
when is he going to, you know?
When is he going to draw whathe was playing, you know?
And because even when we say anopen ended activity, like
there's still, we're all sobeholden to what is you?
Chris Colley (25:36):
know what is familiar and uh, it's like goes
against her.
Yeah, when is he?
Shannon Merenstein (25:42):
gonna start?
When is he gonna develop this?
You know, visual literacy?
Um, and it took a really longtime, I did.
He just drew these circles overand over again and we just, you
know, we encouraged her.
We have such a greatrelationship with so many of our
partner teachers but she saidjust just wait and see.
You know, just let him let itbe for now and we'll see.
(26:03):
And surely enough, you know,when he was ready, maybe it was
February, maybe it was March,but he, you know, started
combining some of those shapes.
He started saying this is me inthe.
You know, this is me playing.
You know, these are block.
This is the block structure Imade.
I played in the kitchen today.
You know, these are block.
Chris Colley (26:34):
This is the block structure I made.
I played in the kitchen today,like those are, those were huge
leaps for the child and there issuch a satisfaction in seeing
that growth.
But seeing that it happenedgood, like I'm always trying to
figure out, like so we've donethis play, and like I take
photos and videos and we sit andtalk about it and how it felt.
But I never thought of justdoing a journal like that with
them so they could just kind oflike draw things out, just you
(26:54):
know, no stakes to it, just likehave them for them, them their
reflection purposes.
I really like that idea.
Shannon Merenstein (27:02):
I might, yeah that practice started as a
way to, um, you know, convinceadministrators that we were
spending this time wisely, thatwe were incorporating, um, you
know, these new, newly acquiredliteracy skills.
But, um, it has actually becomea really powerful practice
because it communicates tochildren that you know, this
(27:24):
work that you were doing, thisplay that you were doing,
actually matters so much thatwe're going to spend time
thinking about it and thechildren are never required to
share.
But we do offer lots ofdifferent ways.
You know we share it.
You know, through thecreativity project, especially
with educators, about how tokind of document these play
experiences.
But how to bring children andtheir voice into, you know, the
(27:48):
sharing out of thatdocumentation so we might show
children photos and they mightrespond to it and, you know,
dictate what was happening inthat picture, in the video.
Chris Colley (27:56):
But the journals kind of give this longitudinal
study of the child's experienceover the year, all this trace
evidence of of this child'sgrowth and thought process, and
I love that.
I love that I'm gonna borrowthat and try this.
Shannon Merenstein (28:13):
Some cool examples after after awesome,
awesome.
Chris Colley (28:17):
Well, shan, this has been fascinating.
Um Love your stories.
I love your journey so far inthis crazy educational world
that we choose to be in, butsuch good reflections for us up
here listeners.
I really appreciate yourinsight into play and creativity
(28:39):
.
It's always these subjects thatcome up in the work that we do,
so I love your perspective onit and you've thrown out some
great seeds that will start togrow around here.
So thank you for sharing someof your insight.
Shannon Merenstein (28:52):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's been a pleasure.
Chris Colley (28:56):
Absolutely, and I mean it feels like we need to
continue this conversation, sowe'll let some time pass and
maybe we can um continue thisbecause it's I've really enjoyed
it a lot, thank you absolutely.
Shannon Merenstein (29:08):
Thank you so much, chris.
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