What if we stopped seeing some students as "difficult to teach" and started designing our classrooms for everyone from the beginning? That's the transformative question at the heart of my conversation with Devon Warnock and Jennifer Mercer, Consultants for Inclusive Education at Lester B Pearson School Board.
Both educators began their careers in classrooms with diverse learning profiles – "We didn't even know it wasn't normal," Jennifer reflects. "We just did what we had to do." Their journeys from overwhelmed teachers to inclusive education experts reveals how Quebec's approach to inclusion has evolved over the past two decades.
The conversation tackles a persistent challenge: even experienced teachers struggle with understanding the difference between flexible pedagogy, adaptation, and modification. This confusion led Devon to develop an Inclusion Toolkit, providing practical strategies for designing lessons that work for all students rather than retrofitting for those who learn differently. When surveying 250+ teachers, they discovered that many with 15+ years of experience still felt unprepared to support students with diverse learning needs.
Perhaps most compelling is their vision of what true inclusion looks like – not just shared physical space, but environments where every student feels they genuinely belong. Through established routines, positive relationships, and thoughtful planning, teachers can create classrooms where diversity becomes the expected standard rather than the exception.
Whether you're a new teacher feeling overwhelmed by diverse classroom needs or a veteran looking to refresh your approach, this episode offers practical wisdom for moving beyond just "integrating" students to truly celebrating their unique contributions in our learning communities.
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Episode Transcript
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Chris Colley (00:12):
Excellent, all right.
Hey, welcome back everyone.
We're back with another episodeof Shift Ed Podcast.
Today I'm staying local.
I love when I can gather insome local experts.
I have two amazing educatorsfrom Lester B Pearson School
Board, devin Warnock andJennifer Mercer, and today we're
(00:34):
going to really talk aboutdifferentiation inclusivity.
They are both let me get thisright consultants.
Inlusive Education those areyour titles, correct, guys?
Devon Warnock (00:46):
You got it I love it.
Chris Colley (00:49):
I came across that acronym CIE, and I was like CIE
, cie, cie, I couldn't.
And then I found it and I waslike, ah, yes, of course.
So before we start delving intoour topic today, I'd love to
kind of just set the stage alittle bit.
And, jennifer, why don't westart with you?
How did you get to this stagein your career?
I tend to ask, like were theremoments that you recall that
(01:13):
brought you to where you aretoday, that were very
transformational in getting youto this spot in your career?
Jennifer Mercer (01:19):
Wow, that's a that's a deep question, chris.
I haven't thought too muchabout this, but I can tell you
that I spent the majority of mycareer at a school in the east
of our school board.
I got hired at DiverdanElementary School right out of
university.
It was my first experienceworking in a school and it turns
(01:44):
out that at that school therewere a lot of needs at the time
but, of course, not having muchto compare it to, I didn't
really know any different.
I did know that I loved thestudents I knew, I loved the
team that I worked with, andthat's sort of what kept me
going back there year after year.
And I actually spent my entirecareer before becoming a
(02:04):
consultant at that school, whichis sort of rare.
A lot of people bounce aroundbut I was lucky enough to be
able to get hired after a fewyou know a few rounds on the
priority list, but not too manyand I got hired there and there
were diverse learning profilesin every single class there and,
um, we just sort of adaptedwithout even knowing any better
(02:29):
at the time.
We just sort of did what we hadto do and it wasn't until um,
you know, until I I've nowbecome.
You know now I've startedworking with a lot of different
teachers in this new role.
Um, I realized that not allschools have that situation
right.
There's still.
Needs are changing throughoutthe system.
(02:50):
There's definitely more diverseprofiles in all of our schools
now than what there were.
But I'm realizing that thereality of teachers was not
necessarily my reality and inour school board typically
consultants for inclusiveeducation were resource teachers
that have become consultants.
(03:11):
But in my situation I was aclassroom teacher but because I
had so many diverse profiles andlots of IEPs, it wasn't too
difficult of a transition for meto move over to this role
because I was familiar withthose things.
Chris Colley (03:26):
I'm sure that lived experience, too, brings a
plethora of wealth to the teamas well, of having experienced
the classroom and the firsthandconnections with the students
that way.
Jennifer Mercer (03:38):
For sure.
I think at the beginning, whenI first moved into this role,
that was definitely a plus forme.
I did have that classroomexperience.
So when I was building myrelationships with my teachers
that I was working with, I thinkyou know that helped me relate
to them a little bit better thanmaybe if I was coming from a
different role.
But I've been now a consultantfor the past four and a half
(04:02):
years and you know, learningevery day and I just love it.
Chris Colley (04:06):
Amazing, Awesome and Devin.
What about you?
Where it all began for you?
What were some of those tippingpoints in your career so far?
Devon Warnock (04:15):
So it's funny because we often joke in our
team.
So both Jen and I worked inVerdun together and our director
, sandra Luther, was ourresource teacher when we were
there and she's now our directorof student services.
So all of the greats maybe comefrom Verdun because of the
amount of kids that we had infront of us who required a
(04:35):
significant amount of supportand, like Jen said, we didn't
even know it was not normal,like we were just doing what we
had to do to ensure that thosekids felt successful and felt
engaged and that they weren'tisolated.
And so, you know, back in theday, I remember I was teaching
grade six and a tipping point, Ithink, for me is I was creating
(04:57):
, you know, adapted version one,adapted version two, modified
version A, modified version B,and Sandra was running in my
room taking half my kids outbecause there wasn't class sizes
at the time.
I had 28 kids and you know Ihad 17 IEPs, and so we were just
, you know, running rampant andjust that complete, overwhelming
(05:18):
sense of this is too hard.
And so we had started to shiftour practice back then, really
looking through a trauma lensand then looking at through a
kid-centered approach, like whatif we did stations, what if we
did centers, what if we diddaily five?
And that really changed our wayof looking at how we adapted
our environment to the kids infront of us.
So that was kind of my firstlittle tipping point.
(05:40):
And then, unlike Jen, I was onthe priority list so I hopped
around from school to school andI saw, like Jen said, some of
these schools had one kid whowas, you know, a bit different
and it was really hard for thoseschools to adapt their teaching
practices.
It was like, well, this kiddoesn't learn the way I teach
and it's like, okay, but maybewe can just try it differently
or they can show you a differentway of how they learn.
(06:02):
And it was really, really hardfor those teachers to take that
leap, to change or to see thatkid is a little bit, you know,
different.
So I think that that kind ofreally prompted me to start
thinking about how I can helpother teachers to see those kids
in different ways or to offerthem different pathways to how
(06:25):
they can learn.
And when I came back from my matleave, this post popped up and
actually I had reached out toJen to say, hey, this post
popped up and you know I hadbeen a resource teacher, I had
been a classroom teacher and shewas the one who really
encouraged me to apply and it'sjust been great.
I mean, you know, the firstyear of consulting was getting
(06:46):
the lay of the land, getting toknow my schools, my building
those relationships, just likeyou would do within a classroom.
But now it's, you know, reallybuilding those relationships and
seeing that what teachers needand how we can help, because I
remember feeling the frustrationof a classroom teacher like
nobody's helping me.
I need help.
So it's it's kind of, it'sallowed us to to kind of branch
(07:08):
out and to help develop others,Cause that's really where we see
the biggest benefit is thatbuilding capacity.
Chris Colley (07:14):
Absolutely, and I love the community too.
I mean not just withinLeicester Bee, but across our
province.
There's such, it seems like, agreat team of people coming
together with this purpose ofmaking sure that all kids have
access in classrooms and it'snot just those that you know can
(07:36):
or can't, or it's like reallyeveryone has a fair shot at it.
And it kind of brings me tothis question how long is have
we had inclusive classrooms herein Quebec?
Has that been something thathas been around for a long time
or is it something relatively,you know, within the last decade
that's happened?
Jennifer Mercer (07:57):
I think it all depends on the school board that
you're working for.
Lester B has been inclusivesince about 2003, 2004,.
If I recall my very first yearat Woodland School, which then
became Verdun Elementary, we hadthat was the very last year
that they had closed specialeducation classes.
(08:19):
We had merged, the Englishschool boards had merged and
then it was decided that LesterB would become an inclusive
school board, so they phased outthe special education classes
shortly after.
Some school boards still offerspecial education classes at
certain levels, perhaps fordifferent types of disabilities.
(08:42):
But I think most of the Englishschool boards do show an
inclusive model to a certainextent and the French system, I
believe, still has many closedclassrooms.
Chris Colley (08:55):
Right, right and Devin.
What's the thinking behind that?
Like, why have inclusiveclassrooms?
Like, what are the benefits forit?
For the students themselves?
Devon Warnock (09:08):
You know, I think that's a question that a lot of
teachers have been askingthemselves recently, because
we've seen an influx of kidscoming in with higher needs than
ever before and it's reallybecome a question of like
reminding ourselves of why we dothis.
And I always think back to DrShelley Moore.
She's a Canadian advocate forkids with exceptionalities and
(09:30):
she always brings it back to youknow, back in the day, if you
had any exceptionality, if youhad any disability, not only
were you not allowed in theschool, you were sent to a
completely different region.
So siblings were sent todifferent schools based on their
abilities.
And it was only when parentsreally started to say like, hey,
wait a minute, why can't mykids go to school together?
(09:52):
And they started to advocatefor their children and I think
that's what we've seen in Quebecas well is that we have these
parents who are saying, hey,wait a sec, my kid deserves to
go to school with his or hersiblings.
And they need to, you know, benot only integrated but
celebrated and have that realdeep sense of belonging.
And I think there's so manybenefits to having inclusive
(10:15):
classrooms and to havingstudents working together,
learning from each other,because it really sets the tone
for human nature in general.
Like when our kids are on fieldtrips and they see people who
may act differently or havereduced mobility, they're not
surprised by that becausethey're going to schools with
(10:38):
kiddos that looked and lackeddifferently than them, and
that's okay, we celebrate it.
And it's not just abouttolerance, it's about acceptance
, and I think that that makes abig difference.
And I think the biggest benefitthat you can see is when you
walk into our classrooms and seeour kids, you know, working
together and not really seeingthose differences but really
(11:00):
focusing on the similaritiesthat they share.
So I mean, I know it comes withits struggles.
We are definitely not in aperfect situation, but at the
end of the day it's.
I think it's the bestenvironment for our kids to
learn in.
Chris Colley (11:14):
Right, absolutely so.
I mean, then, in walks,differentiation, right, like
having inclusive classrooms,means that the teacher has to be
aware of all the differentvarieties of kids they have and
then making sure they haveaccess to the learning that's
going on.
How do you guys, do you findthat across the province of
(11:37):
Quebec, that the differentiationdocumentation that's been put
out by the MEQ, that that'sunderstood and followed, or does
every board kind of have itsown flavor and reinterpretation?
Like, are the nine boards allkind of in isolation in their
differentiation and it's notsomething that's global across
the province?
I think?
Jennifer Mercer (11:59):
yeah, I was just gonna say you know, I think
it's hard for us to speak aboutdifferent boards, right,
because we've both been withLesterby for a long time.
But what I do know is that youknow teachers when they first
get out of university, we studythe curriculum, we study all the
documents from the MEQ and then, as we get more and more
comfortable with our curriculum,we get into habits, we get into
(12:21):
routines and we start to dothings.
You know, sometimes the waywe've always done things the
year before.
Sometimes we make some tweaksand what I have noticed is that
there are some really greatdocuments put out by the MEQ and
I'm not so sure teachers areremembering to look at them, or
also they're just so busy, right.
So it's hard to sit down at theend of the day and spark up
(12:44):
your computer and go see whatthe MEQ has to say, because
you're putting out 10 firesevery five minutes.
So I think part of our job forDevin and I is to remind
teachers also to go consultthose documents.
There's some great documents onflexible pedagogy and
adaptations modifications, aswell as the curriculum documents
(13:09):
as well when you're talkingabout evaluation.
So I do think we get into oldhabits.
We forget to look at thosethings, but they're really great
resources.
Devon Warnock (13:14):
And I think that that's kind of why we did this,
or why I thought to do thisproject, and then it bloomed
into something a lot bigger.
But there's a realmisunderstanding of what's the
difference between flexiblepedagogy, differentiation,
adaptation, modification.
And we had teachers who were,you know, 15 years into their
(13:37):
like not early career teachers,but 15 years in who were unsure
of what to do when they had akid who was learning differently
.
And it's like, wait a minute,you've been doing this for 15
years and you still struggle, sosomething is not clear.
So how about we kind of clarifycertain things to help those
teachers feel confident?
Because that's the hardest part, and I think that that's one of
(14:00):
the struggles that we see theminute that we don't feel
confident, we don't really wantto do it.
You get in that gray area andyou want to stick to what you
know, and it's hard when wedon't have the strategies or the
confidence to be able to teachthe kids that are sitting in
front of us.
And so referring to thosedocuments are important, but,
like any good political ministrydocument, they're often vague,
(14:23):
right?
So they can be interpreted inmany different ways.
So I think that the beauty ofthose documents is that our
teachers do have a lot ofautonomy in what they do, but
when it gets down to the nittygritty of it and helping our
kids, who are diverse, we needto ensure that we're giving them
the best practices that we canto make sure that they're
(14:43):
successful.
Chris Colley (14:44):
Absolutely.
Yeah, it's.
It's getting into the nuts andbolts of it.
All Right, like I've had manydiscussions with many a teacher
about the understanding of whatdifferentiation is and
pedagogical flexibility.
But when it gets to the brasstacks of it all, it's like all
right, where do I start?
What do I do?
Do I have to make a lesson forevery kid?
And you know, like it's it's,it's that surface understanding.
(15:07):
So I understand, devin, thatyou, um, you applied for a PDIG.
Oh, yeah, remember teacher PDIGsare opening up now so you can
apply for them for next year andyour PDIG was around an
inclusive toolkit.
Is that correct?
Devon Warnock (15:20):
Yeah, so we actually.
It was funny.
So I had gone to a presentationand one of the consultants from
Soul World for Laurier had donea similar project, and so I was
like, oh my gosh, we need to dothis and add our board, because
we have so many amazingteachers and I think we need to
kind of sit down and figure thisout all together.
(15:42):
And so I applied for a PDIG.
We got it.
It was amazing.
We sat down with a boatload ofteachers and we sent a survey
out and we originally called ourtoolkit the Modification
Toolkit, and the aim was to makemodifications more meaningful.
And what we quickly realized isthat, by pegging it as a
modification toolkit, that someteachers who didn't necessarily
(16:05):
have kids who were modified intheir class were like, oh, I
don't need this, and so theyweren't necessarily being
engaged in our, in our, in ourprofessional development or our
workshops.
And I was like, wait a minute,like these are the teachers who
need to hear this, because theseare the kids who who are going
to benefit from this, even ifthey're not modified.
So we switched it up and wecalled it our inclusion toolkit,
because really it's how to youknow how to do everything you
(16:30):
need to do in an inclusiveclassroom and that PDIG
opportunity, I mean man sittingwith those teachers.
And one thing I think Jen and Ihave both learned very quickly
in the role of consultant isthat teachers will listen to
teachers a heck of a lot fasterthan they will to a consultant
because even though we wereteachers, we know how they felt.
(16:52):
We are no longer teachers, weare now at the board level and
there's that shift in like oh,yeah, okay, but when it comes
from their colleagues, man, whata difference it makes.
So hearing from them and reallyworking closely with those
teachers, it made it so muchmore meaningful for us.
Chris Colley (17:10):
Interesting and, jen, can you elaborate on some
of the like through work withthe toolkit and where I guess
it's more explicit and morestrategy based and practice?
And like what were some of yoursurprises that you saw teachers
wanting to adapt that theyhadn't before?
Jennifer Mercer (17:43):
Well, I think the beauty of this toolkit that
you know was led by Devin and acolleague of ours, jessica
worked on by a bunch of teachers.
I think the beauty of this kitis that it's really a one-stop
shop for teachers for planningfor their classrooms.
You know, there are forms thatthey can use to fill out student
profiles.
They can have access toministry documents, they can
have access to some frequentlyasked questions, which is a
section that I love in thattoolkit because it really does.
(18:04):
It really does clarify the roleof the teacher, the.
You know the purpose of thistoolkit, so there's a lot of
really great things included andI think it just really helps
teachers to plan for their class, plan for all of the needs of
all of their students in aone-stop shop.
It's not retrofitting for kidsthat learn a little bit
(18:26):
different.
It really is planning witheverybody in mind.
So I think that's the beautifulpart of that toolkit.
Chris Colley (18:34):
Amazing Devin.
Do you have anything to add tothat, Because I knew that you
were behind it?
A lot of the toolkit.
Were there any surprises foryou that came out of that PIDG
and working with teachersdirectly?
Devon Warnock (18:46):
So I think what was fun about working with that
gang was they weren't afraid tospeak up and speak out.
They had, you know, they askedsome really hard questions.
We sent a survey to ourteachers.
We got about 250-ish responsesback and what we found right
(19:09):
away is, you know, teachers werereally struggling with aligning
modified activities with cycleexpectations.
Teachers were struggling withdeveloping learning activities
and then creating and reportingon IEP objectives, which you
know some of these teachers hadbeen in schools for 15 to 20
years and they were stillstruggling with those three
things.
So it made us kind of look atour project, as you know, bigger
(19:36):
than we had originally thought,which was great, because
traditionally modification isreally seen as other right it's
seen as something different.
It focuses on what kids can't do, and so we really wanted it to
stop being a reactive approachfor teachers.
We wanted it to be somethingwell like how about we focus on
what your kids can do and shiftthem towards bridging the gap in
(19:59):
their learning, wherever theyare in their learning, and as
opposed to what I did back inthe day, you know, of creating
completely different materialsand different assignments it's
how can you do this for all yourkids, so that you're not
completely overwhelmed by who'ssitting in front of you?
And you know it is really justinviting, I think, teachers to
(20:20):
think about all of theirstudents when they're planning,
as opposed to the kid who's easyto teach to.
So I think that's what we did,and you know it's still a
journey.
There's still some bumps alongthe way to go, but really that
was the surprising thing.
(20:41):
We had teachers asking reallyhard questions and really being
vulnerable in what they didn'tknow, and it was like, wow, okay
, so then, if this many peopleneed this much information, like
, let's see what we can do withthis so that was really the
beauty of it, I think.
Chris Colley (21:01):
That's cool.
That's cool.
I really love that um, and I'vealso seen that you guys are
starting to um start the journeyat the pre-service teacher
level and I've seen a couple ofyour your presentations to
pre-service teachers to get themready, because I've been doing
work with them as well.
And there's a long way to go, sothat after 15 years of practice
(21:25):
, I'm only just starting like wewant to avoid that right,
Exactly.
So what are the things that youguys recommend for those
pre-service teachers that theyshould become aware of or read
over or you know, like, how doyou, how do you motivate them to
be aware of inclusivity in ourclassrooms so that they're aware
(21:47):
of it and react to it?
Jennifer Mercer (21:49):
You know they, that is actually one of the best
parts of our job.
I think Devin woulds that wejust recently did with them was
sort of, you know, having thempractice and planning with their
(22:19):
, with these students in mindand giving them access to the
toolkit and giving them hands onexperience to sort of tweak
some lessons of theirs, you know, using the tools that we're
introducing to them.
But I have to say, you know,they have a lot of great tools
already in their tool belt.
They have what they have goingfor them, I think, is really
(22:40):
sort of maybe a naivete, right.
They don't really have apreconceived notion of what
their classroom should look like, because they're just happy to
pick up a 50% post that's leftover right, because they're
brand new.
And when you look at who was inour session back in January, you
know we had about, I would say,a good 30 students sorry, 30
(23:02):
pre-service teachers, 30teachers, new teachers and they
all were teaching bits andpieces of things 50% French
grade two, 50% French grade sixand and they were just happy to
be there.
They were overwhelmed but theywere happy to be there and they
were happy to work hard and meetthe needs of their students.
So they really do have some,some resilience and you know
(23:26):
they were happy to be introducedto these tools.
But I think I think coming infresh like that is really a
great, you know, a great, almosta protective factor, because
they don't really know whatthings should look like, because
things don't look like thatanymore.
Our students have changed overthe years.
Classrooms are diverse, so Ithink their open-mindedness is
(23:49):
really a great thing.
Chris Colley (23:51):
That's cool.
Devon Warnock (23:54):
I'm actually going to McGill next week.
We're presenting at a class atMcGill with Sam Braseisi and we
presented at Concordia a fewweeks ago.
That was amazing.
But pre-service teachers I mean, this is my bread and butter.
This is where I want to be,because I know that the reality
of teaching is so different thanwhat you experience at McGill
(24:17):
and Concordia.
Right, and I think my recentresearch was that I think McGill
maybe offers six to ninecredits that goes around
somewhere.
Inclusion I think Concordiadoes a bit more.
Maybe nine to 12 credits.
Bishops I think it was sixcredits.
Those are the classes that areaimed at preparing pre-service
teachers for inclusiveclassrooms.
Chris Colley (24:41):
It's not a lot of exposure really.
Devon Warnock (24:44):
They're not really getting that exposure,
and, at the end of the day,designing for diversity is what
you have to do.
Designing for diversity is whatyou have to do.
So I think that a lot of ourwork goes into providing them
with some skills and strategiesthat they haven't necessarily
seen before.
And so then, the minute you dothat.
(25:04):
they sometimes see that as extra, and so, to avoid that, if we
could get some courseworkinvolved, some stuff for them to
have access to before becominga full-time teacher and seeing
it as an extra, that's wherewe'll get the most bang for our
buck.
Because what we've learned, andwhat I learned as a teacher, is
that if I can design for, youknow, one lesson for all my kids
(25:26):
, I am saving 10 hours at night.
You know, going home at nightand back before the internet.
Well, I had the internet but Ididn't have Google, so I would
have to like cut things out andcut it with glue and then
photocopy it this way and notthat way.
And you know you spend hoursdoing that stuff and we know
that teachers lack that time andthey lack that.
You know sometimes they lacksupport and resources.
(25:47):
If you're in a school, in arural school, you may not have a
full-time resource teacher atyour school.
In a rural school, you may nothave a full-time resource
teacher at your school, you maynot have a consultant to come in
and work with you.
So if we can providepre-service teachers and early
career teachers with mentoringopportunities and opportunities
to ask questions and to practice, practice, practice.
I think that that can reallyservice us all in the long run,
(26:09):
because then it becomes.
You know, our school boards arereceiving these bright-eyed and
bushy-tailed teachers andwithin five years we can lose
them because they're overwhelmedand they're tired and they
don't feel equipped to help toteach a child with autism.
You know, they don't feelequipped to teach a child who
has a specific learningdisability in reading and
(26:29):
writing.
They've never had to do thatbefore.
So I think the more that we canprepare them, I think the
higher chance that we'll keepthem around.
Chris Colley (26:38):
Absolutely.
I totally agree with you onthat, because it is overwhelming
.
I mean, just remove inclusivity, which is ridiculous, but just
the teaching job is sooverwhelming and then having to
take into account the kids infront.
You can't just be up on thestage and just deliver stuff
anymore um because you knowyou're getting half the kids.
(27:00):
The other half are just rollingtheir eyes like what the heck
am I?
Jennifer Mercer (27:03):
doing here.
Chris Colley (27:04):
Um, this has been really fascinating.
I want to thank you guys first.
Before we, I have one lastquestion for you.
What is the ideal inclusiveenvironment in your opinion?
I saw that there was an article, a post put out on um through
Lester B's um news cast and ittalked about that and that
(27:28):
phrase, that sentence, reallypopped out at me.
What, what are some of theaspects that need to be in there
?
I mean, ideal is a big word,but an inclusive classroom that
is more inclusive, like ifyou're starting from very low,
what are some of the things thatare easy to get going to start
creating that inclusion withinyour class Routines and rituals?
Devon Warnock (27:53):
Say again, Kevin yeah, say again.
Routines and rituals.
If you can get a solid routineand ritual so your kids don't
have to think about how to learn, if they already know the way
that you're going to teach.
I know, jen, when you alwaysrefer back to the setup that you
had.
Your kids didn't have to thinkabout it, they knew.
Jennifer Mercer (28:15):
Yeah, lots of you know routines, rituals.
That certainly helps build theclass culture.
I also think that you knowshifting the language a little
bit, you know I I like that.
You know we call ourselvesconsultants for inclusive
education instead of.
You know we call ourselvesconsultants for inclusive
education instead of, you know,special education consultants.
(28:37):
I do like that.
But even more so if anybodyfollows Shelley Moore, you know
she has a diagram where she'sgot these bubbles that represent
, you know, segregation andintegration and inclusion, and
she sort of challenges us tothink about what's beyond that,
what is beyond inclusion, right,because when you look at your
(28:58):
classroom, everybody isindividual and everybody has
different needs and I thinkthat's sort of the whether it be
behavioral needs, whether it belearning needs, whether it be
everybody is diverse.
So I think it's sort of justkind of shifting our lens to
from what's normal to have in aclass quote unquote to just, you
know, acknowledging thateverybody's unique, everybody
(29:21):
has needs and you know, justkeeping that in mind when we
plan for them I think reallyreally will help teachers sort
of grasp the needs of theirclass and be able to plan for
those kids and not just the oneor two or four or five.
That have, you know, learningdifficulties or behavior
(29:41):
difficulties, but just keepingeveryone in mind, which is a
challenge, and, um, it can beoverwhelming, but hopefully, um
you know, through, through pdand through listening to
podcasts and all of those things, we'll get there.
Devon Warnock (29:56):
And I think, at the end of the day, a real sense
of inclusion in a classroom isthat it's more than just a
shared space, it's more thanjust routine and rituals, it's
it's having those relationshipsthat are solidly built where a
kid feels that they belong inyour class, because the minute a
kid feels they belong, you canget them to do anything so that
(30:17):
when you have that heightenedsense, then students, whether
they have exceptionalities ornot, they're more likely to
engage, they're more likely tocontribute and to form positive
relationships with their peers,which then you know, promotes a
stronger community in your class.
And because you know the flipside is that when you have an
inclusive school that don't haveinclusive instructional
(30:39):
practices, you have kids who are, you know, throwing stuff at
you and walking out of the classand are like this is too hard,
this is not for me, and so youhave on, the flip side is you
have kids who don't feel thatthey belong, that they don't
that know, they aren't plannedfor.
So I think when you build inthose rituals, routines, and
have that relationship and, youknow, use an inclusive framework
(31:02):
, you know, anyone in Quebec hasaccess to our toolkit.
They can go and check out allthe templates and lesson plans
that we've created and reallyit's just an invitation to to
use a master brain of a teacheron paper, and that's kind of
what we discovered.
I think it was Arla Connell.
(31:22):
She's a teacher for Maple Grove, she's fantastic, and she said
you know, this is what excellentteachers do.
But imagine we're just givingthis to brand new teachers, like
they're going to, they're goingto have this in their minds and
then it's just going to becomea ritual and a routine for them,
a habitual thing to be like.
Okay, I'm planning this method.
What's my baseline?
Okay, what can all of my kidsdo?
What could some of my kids do?
And look at it that way, I likethat.
(31:46):
Yeah.
Chris Colley (31:47):
But you can see it as kind of a structure that
you're bringing in and you'refollowing that structure.
I that you're bringing in andyou're following that structure.
I love the idea, too, ofrelationships.
I mean, I think that's whateducators do, is they create
relationships with others andhopefully positive, the most
positive relationships, becauseonce you have those, then
(32:07):
there's room to move and to knowand sometimes you're going to
get feedback from the studentthemselves of how they learn or
what they're not getting at.
So, totally, totally love that,totally love that.
Well, guys, this has beenreally fascinating.
You've made us all smarter outthere, the listeners, because it
is so important and it justneeds to be talked about more.
(32:31):
Like I, I love to the idea ofthe language, that we just need
to have a common language, thatwe start using um to set up some
of these rituals and routines,um.
So thank you, guys for this.
It's been really fascinatingthank you, chris.
Excellent, all right.
Hey, welcome back everyone.
We're back with another episodeof Shift Ed Podcast.
Today I'm staying local.
I love when I can gather insome local experts.
I have two amazing educatorsfrom Lester B Pearson School
Board, devin Warnock andJennifer Mercer, and today we're
(00:34):
going to really talk aboutdifferentiation inclusivity.
They are both let me get thisright consultants.
Inlusive Education those areyour titles, correct, guys?
Devon Warnock (00:46):
You got it I love it.
Chris Colley (00:49):
I came across that acronym CIE, and I was like CIE
, cie, cie, I couldn't.
And then I found it and I waslike, ah, yes, of course.
So before we start delving intoour topic today, I'd love to
kind of just set the stage alittle bit.
And, jennifer, why don't westart with you?
How did you get to this stagein your career?
I tend to ask, like were theremoments that you recall that
(01:13):
brought you to where you aretoday, that were very
transformational in getting youto this spot in your career?
Jennifer Mercer (01:19):
Wow, that's a that's a deep question, chris.
I haven't thought too muchabout this, but I can tell you
that I spent the majority of mycareer at a school in the east
of our school board.
I got hired at DiverdanElementary School right out of
university.
It was my first experienceworking in a school and it turns
(01:44):
out that at that school therewere a lot of needs at the time
but, of course, not having muchto compare it to, I didn't
really know any different.
I did know that I loved thestudents I knew, I loved the
team that I worked with, andthat's sort of what kept me
going back there year after year.
And I actually spent my entirecareer before becoming a
(02:04):
consultant at that school, whichis sort of rare.
A lot of people bounce aroundbut I was lucky enough to be
able to get hired after a fewyou know a few rounds on the
priority list, but not too manyand I got hired there and there
were diverse learning profilesin every single class there and,
um, we just sort of adaptedwithout even knowing any better
(02:29):
at the time.
We just sort of did what we hadto do and it wasn't until um,
you know, until I I've nowbecome.
You know now I've startedworking with a lot of different
teachers in this new role.
Um, I realized that not allschools have that situation
right.
There's still.
Needs are changing throughoutthe system.
(02:50):
There's definitely more diverseprofiles in all of our schools
now than what there were.
But I'm realizing that thereality of teachers was not
necessarily my reality and inour school board typically
consultants for inclusiveeducation were resource teachers
that have become consultants.
(03:11):
But in my situation I was aclassroom teacher but because I
had so many diverse profiles andlots of IEPs, it wasn't too
difficult of a transition for meto move over to this role
because I was familiar withthose things.
Chris Colley (03:26):
I'm sure that lived experience, too, brings a
plethora of wealth to the teamas well, of having experienced
the classroom and the firsthandconnections with the students
that way.
Jennifer Mercer (03:38):
For sure.
I think at the beginning, whenI first moved into this role,
that was definitely a plus forme.
I did have that classroomexperience.
So when I was building myrelationships with my teachers
that I was working with, I thinkyou know that helped me relate
to them a little bit better thanmaybe if I was coming from a
different role.
But I've been now a consultantfor the past four and a half
(04:02):
years and you know, learningevery day and I just love it.
Chris Colley (04:06):
Amazing, Awesome and Devin.
What about you?
Where it all began for you?
What were some of those tippingpoints in your career so far?
Devon Warnock (04:15):
So it's funny because we often joke in our
team.
So both Jen and I worked inVerdun together and our director
, sandra Luther, was ourresource teacher when we were
there and she's now our directorof student services.
So all of the greats maybe comefrom Verdun because of the
amount of kids that we had infront of us who required a
(04:35):
significant amount of supportand, like Jen said, we didn't
even know it was not normal,like we were just doing what we
had to do to ensure that thosekids felt successful and felt
engaged and that they weren'tisolated.
And so, you know, back in theday, I remember I was teaching
grade six and a tipping point, Ithink, for me is I was creating
(04:57):
, you know, adapted version one,adapted version two, modified
version A, modified version B,and Sandra was running in my
room taking half my kids outbecause there wasn't class sizes
at the time.
I had 28 kids and you know Ihad 17 IEPs, and so we were just
, you know, running rampant andjust that complete, overwhelming
(05:18):
sense of this is too hard.
And so we had started to shiftour practice back then, really
looking through a trauma lensand then looking at through a
kid-centered approach, like whatif we did stations, what if we
did centers, what if we diddaily five?
And that really changed our wayof looking at how we adapted
our environment to the kids infront of us.
So that was kind of my firstlittle tipping point.
(05:40):
And then, unlike Jen, I was onthe priority list so I hopped
around from school to school andI saw, like Jen said, some of
these schools had one kid whowas, you know, a bit different
and it was really hard for thoseschools to adapt their teaching
practices.
It was like, well, this kiddoesn't learn the way I teach
and it's like, okay, but maybewe can just try it differently
or they can show you a differentway of how they learn.
(06:02):
And it was really, really hardfor those teachers to take that
leap, to change or to see thatkid is a little bit, you know,
different.
So I think that that kind ofreally prompted me to start
thinking about how I can helpother teachers to see those kids
in different ways or to offerthem different pathways to how
(06:25):
they can learn.
And when I came back from my matleave, this post popped up and
actually I had reached out toJen to say, hey, this post
popped up and you know I hadbeen a resource teacher, I had
been a classroom teacher and shewas the one who really
encouraged me to apply and it'sjust been great.
I mean, you know, the firstyear of consulting was getting
(06:46):
the lay of the land, getting toknow my schools, my building
those relationships, just likeyou would do within a classroom.
But now it's, you know, reallybuilding those relationships and
seeing that what teachers needand how we can help, because I
remember feeling the frustrationof a classroom teacher like
nobody's helping me.
I need help.
So it's it's kind of, it'sallowed us to to kind of branch
(07:08):
out and to help develop others,Cause that's really where we see
the biggest benefit is thatbuilding capacity.
Chris Colley (07:14):
Absolutely, and I love the community too.
I mean not just withinLeicester Bee, but across our
province.
There's such, it seems like, agreat team of people coming
together with this purpose ofmaking sure that all kids have
access in classrooms and it'snot just those that you know can
(07:36):
or can't, or it's like reallyeveryone has a fair shot at it.
And it kind of brings me tothis question how long is have
we had inclusive classrooms herein Quebec?
Has that been something thathas been around for a long time
or is it something relatively,you know, within the last decade
that's happened?
Jennifer Mercer (07:57):
I think it all depends on the school board that
you're working for.
Lester B has been inclusivesince about 2003, 2004,.
If I recall my very first yearat Woodland School, which then
became Verdun Elementary, we hadthat was the very last year
that they had closed specialeducation classes.
(08:19):
We had merged, the Englishschool boards had merged and
then it was decided that LesterB would become an inclusive
school board, so they phased outthe special education classes
shortly after.
Some school boards still offerspecial education classes at
certain levels, perhaps fordifferent types of disabilities.
(08:42):
But I think most of the Englishschool boards do show an
inclusive model to a certainextent and the French system, I
believe, still has many closedclassrooms.
Chris Colley (08:55):
Right, right and Devin.
What's the thinking behind that?
Like, why have inclusiveclassrooms?
Like, what are the benefits forit?
For the students themselves?
Devon Warnock (09:08):
You know, I think that's a question that a lot of
teachers have been askingthemselves recently, because
we've seen an influx of kidscoming in with higher needs than
ever before and it's reallybecome a question of like
reminding ourselves of why we dothis.
And I always think back to DrShelley Moore.
She's a Canadian advocate forkids with exceptionalities and
(09:30):
she always brings it back to youknow, back in the day, if you
had any exceptionality, if youhad any disability, not only
were you not allowed in theschool, you were sent to a
completely different region.
So siblings were sent todifferent schools based on their
abilities.
And it was only when parentsreally started to say like, hey,
wait a minute, why can't mykids go to school together?
(09:52):
And they started to advocatefor their children and I think
that's what we've seen in Quebecas well is that we have these
parents who are saying, hey,wait a sec, my kid deserves to
go to school with his or hersiblings.
And they need to, you know, benot only integrated but
celebrated and have that realdeep sense of belonging.
And I think there's so manybenefits to having inclusive
(10:15):
classrooms and to havingstudents working together,
learning from each other,because it really sets the tone
for human nature in general.
Like when our kids are on fieldtrips and they see people who
may act differently or havereduced mobility, they're not
surprised by that becausethey're going to schools with
(10:38):
kiddos that looked and lackeddifferently than them, and
that's okay, we celebrate it.
And it's not just abouttolerance, it's about acceptance
, and I think that that makes abig difference.
And I think the biggest benefitthat you can see is when you
walk into our classrooms and seeour kids, you know, working
together and not really seeingthose differences but really
(11:00):
focusing on the similaritiesthat they share.
So I mean, I know it comes withits struggles.
We are definitely not in aperfect situation, but at the
end of the day it's.
I think it's the bestenvironment for our kids to
learn in.
Chris Colley (11:14):
Right, absolutely so.
I mean, then, in walks,differentiation, right, like
having inclusive classrooms,means that the teacher has to be
aware of all the differentvarieties of kids they have and
then making sure they haveaccess to the learning that's
going on.
How do you guys, do you findthat across the province of
(11:37):
Quebec, that the differentiationdocumentation that's been put
out by the MEQ, that that'sunderstood and followed, or does
every board kind of have itsown flavor and reinterpretation?
Like, are the nine boards allkind of in isolation in their
differentiation and it's notsomething that's global across
the province?
I think?
Jennifer Mercer (11:59):
yeah, I was just gonna say you know, I think
it's hard for us to speak aboutdifferent boards, right,
because we've both been withLesterby for a long time.
But what I do know is that youknow teachers when they first
get out of university, we studythe curriculum, we study all the
documents from the MEQ and then, as we get more and more
comfortable with our curriculum,we get into habits, we get into
(12:21):
routines and we start to dothings.
You know, sometimes the waywe've always done things the
year before.
Sometimes we make some tweaksand what I have noticed is that
there are some really greatdocuments put out by the MEQ and
I'm not so sure teachers areremembering to look at them, or
also they're just so busy, right.
So it's hard to sit down at theend of the day and spark up
(12:44):
your computer and go see whatthe MEQ has to say, because
you're putting out 10 firesevery five minutes.
So I think part of our job forDevin and I is to remind
teachers also to go consultthose documents.
There's some great documents onflexible pedagogy and
adaptations modifications, aswell as the curriculum documents
(13:09):
as well when you're talkingabout evaluation.
So I do think we get into oldhabits.
We forget to look at thosethings, but they're really great
resources.
Devon Warnock (13:14):
And I think that that's kind of why we did this,
or why I thought to do thisproject, and then it bloomed
into something a lot bigger.
But there's a realmisunderstanding of what's the
difference between flexiblepedagogy, differentiation,
adaptation, modification.
And we had teachers who were,you know, 15 years into their
(13:37):
like not early career teachers,but 15 years in who were unsure
of what to do when they had akid who was learning differently
.
And it's like, wait a minute,you've been doing this for 15
years and you still struggle, sosomething is not clear.
So how about we kind of clarifycertain things to help those
teachers feel confident?
Because that's the hardest part, and I think that that's one of
(14:00):
the struggles that we see theminute that we don't feel
confident, we don't really wantto do it.
You get in that gray area andyou want to stick to what you
know, and it's hard when wedon't have the strategies or the
confidence to be able to teachthe kids that are sitting in
front of us.
And so referring to thosedocuments are important, but,
like any good political ministrydocument, they're often vague,
(14:23):
right?
So they can be interpreted inmany different ways.
So I think that the beauty ofthose documents is that our
teachers do have a lot ofautonomy in what they do, but
when it gets down to the nittygritty of it and helping our
kids, who are diverse, we needto ensure that we're giving them
the best practices that we canto make sure that they're
(14:43):
successful.
Chris Colley (14:44):
Absolutely.
Yeah, it's.
It's getting into the nuts andbolts of it.
All Right, like I've had manydiscussions with many a teacher
about the understanding of whatdifferentiation is and
pedagogical flexibility.
But when it gets to the brasstacks of it all, it's like all
right, where do I start?
What do I do?
Do I have to make a lesson forevery kid?
And you know, like it's it's,it's that surface understanding.
(15:07):
So I understand, devin, thatyou, um, you applied for a PDIG.
Oh, yeah, remember teacher PDIGsare opening up now so you can
apply for them for next year andyour PDIG was around an
inclusive toolkit.
Is that correct?
Devon Warnock (15:20):
Yeah, so we actually.
It was funny.
So I had gone to a presentationand one of the consultants from
Soul World for Laurier had donea similar project, and so I was
like, oh my gosh, we need to dothis and add our board, because
we have so many amazingteachers and I think we need to
kind of sit down and figure thisout all together.
(15:42):
And so I applied for a PDIG.
We got it.
It was amazing.
We sat down with a boatload ofteachers and we sent a survey
out and we originally called ourtoolkit the Modification
Toolkit, and the aim was to makemodifications more meaningful.
And what we quickly realized isthat, by pegging it as a
modification toolkit, that someteachers who didn't necessarily
(16:05):
have kids who were modified intheir class were like, oh, I
don't need this, and so theyweren't necessarily being
engaged in our, in our, in ourprofessional development or our
workshops.
And I was like, wait a minute,like these are the teachers who
need to hear this, because theseare the kids who who are going
to benefit from this, even ifthey're not modified.
So we switched it up and wecalled it our inclusion toolkit,
because really it's how to youknow how to do everything you
(16:30):
need to do in an inclusiveclassroom and that PDIG
opportunity, I mean man sittingwith those teachers.
And one thing I think Jen and Ihave both learned very quickly
in the role of consultant isthat teachers will listen to
teachers a heck of a lot fasterthan they will to a consultant
because even though we wereteachers, we know how they felt.
(16:52):
We are no longer teachers, weare now at the board level and
there's that shift in like oh,yeah, okay, but when it comes
from their colleagues, man, whata difference it makes.
So hearing from them and reallyworking closely with those
teachers, it made it so muchmore meaningful for us.
Chris Colley (17:10):
Interesting and, jen, can you elaborate on some
of the like through work withthe toolkit and where I guess
it's more explicit and morestrategy based and practice?
And like what were some of yoursurprises that you saw teachers
wanting to adapt that theyhadn't before?
Jennifer Mercer (17:43):
Well, I think the beauty of this toolkit that
you know was led by Devin and acolleague of ours, jessica
worked on by a bunch of teachers.
I think the beauty of this kitis that it's really a one-stop
shop for teachers for planningfor their classrooms.
You know, there are forms thatthey can use to fill out student
profiles.
They can have access toministry documents, they can
have access to some frequentlyasked questions, which is a
section that I love in thattoolkit because it really does.
(18:04):
It really does clarify the roleof the teacher, the.
You know the purpose of thistoolkit, so there's a lot of
really great things included andI think it just really helps
teachers to plan for their class, plan for all of the needs of
all of their students in aone-stop shop.
It's not retrofitting for kidsthat learn a little bit
(18:26):
different.
It really is planning witheverybody in mind.
So I think that's the beautifulpart of that toolkit.
Chris Colley (18:34):
Amazing Devin.
Do you have anything to add tothat, Because I knew that you
were behind it?
A lot of the toolkit.
Were there any surprises foryou that came out of that PIDG
and working with teachersdirectly?
Devon Warnock (18:46):
So I think what was fun about working with that
gang was they weren't afraid tospeak up and speak out.
They had, you know, they askedsome really hard questions.
We sent a survey to ourteachers.
We got about 250-ish responsesback and what we found right
(19:09):
away is, you know, teachers werereally struggling with aligning
modified activities with cycleexpectations.
Teachers were struggling withdeveloping learning activities
and then creating and reportingon IEP objectives, which you
know some of these teachers hadbeen in schools for 15 to 20
years and they were stillstruggling with those three
things.
So it made us kind of look atour project, as you know, bigger
(19:36):
than we had originally thought,which was great, because
traditionally modification isreally seen as other right it's
seen as something different.
It focuses on what kids can't do, and so we really wanted it to
stop being a reactive approachfor teachers.
We wanted it to be somethingwell like how about we focus on
what your kids can do and shiftthem towards bridging the gap in
(19:59):
their learning, wherever theyare in their learning, and as
opposed to what I did back inthe day, you know, of creating
completely different materialsand different assignments it's
how can you do this for all yourkids, so that you're not
completely overwhelmed by who'ssitting in front of you?
And you know it is really justinviting, I think, teachers to
(20:20):
think about all of theirstudents when they're planning,
as opposed to the kid who's easyto teach to.
So I think that's what we did,and you know it's still a
journey.
There's still some bumps alongthe way to go, but really that
was the surprising thing.
(20:41):
We had teachers asking reallyhard questions and really being
vulnerable in what they didn'tknow, and it was like, wow, okay
, so then, if this many peopleneed this much information, like
, let's see what we can do withthis so that was really the
beauty of it, I think.
Chris Colley (21:01):
That's cool.
That's cool.
I really love that um, and I'vealso seen that you guys are
starting to um start the journeyat the pre-service teacher
level and I've seen a couple ofyour your presentations to
pre-service teachers to get themready, because I've been doing
work with them as well.
And there's a long way to go, sothat after 15 years of practice
(21:25):
, I'm only just starting like wewant to avoid that right,
Exactly.
So what are the things that youguys recommend for those
pre-service teachers that theyshould become aware of or read
over or you know, like, how doyou, how do you motivate them to
be aware of inclusivity in ourclassrooms so that they're aware
(21:47):
of it and react to it?
Jennifer Mercer (21:49):
You know they, that is actually one of the best
parts of our job.
I think Devin woulds that wejust recently did with them was
sort of, you know, having thempractice and planning with their
(22:19):
, with these students in mindand giving them access to the
toolkit and giving them hands onexperience to sort of tweak
some lessons of theirs, you know, using the tools that we're
introducing to them.
But I have to say, you know,they have a lot of great tools
already in their tool belt.
They have what they have goingfor them, I think, is really
(22:40):
sort of maybe a naivete, right.
They don't really have apreconceived notion of what
their classroom should look like, because they're just happy to
pick up a 50% post that's leftover right, because they're
brand new.
And when you look at who was inour session back in January, you
know we had about, I would say,a good 30 students sorry, 30
(23:02):
pre-service teachers, 30teachers, new teachers and they
all were teaching bits andpieces of things 50% French
grade two, 50% French grade sixand and they were just happy to
be there.
They were overwhelmed but theywere happy to be there and they
were happy to work hard and meetthe needs of their students.
So they really do have some,some resilience and you know
(23:26):
they were happy to be introducedto these tools.
But I think I think coming infresh like that is really a
great, you know, a great, almosta protective factor, because
they don't really know whatthings should look like, because
things don't look like thatanymore.
Our students have changed overthe years.
Classrooms are diverse, so Ithink their open-mindedness is
(23:49):
really a great thing.
Chris Colley (23:51):
That's cool.
Devon Warnock (23:54):
I'm actually going to McGill next week.
We're presenting at a class atMcGill with Sam Braseisi and we
presented at Concordia a fewweeks ago.
That was amazing.
But pre-service teachers I mean, this is my bread and butter.
This is where I want to be,because I know that the reality
of teaching is so different thanwhat you experience at McGill
(24:17):
and Concordia.
Right, and I think my recentresearch was that I think McGill
maybe offers six to ninecredits that goes around
somewhere.
Inclusion I think Concordiadoes a bit more.
Maybe nine to 12 credits.
Bishops I think it was sixcredits.
Those are the classes that areaimed at preparing pre-service
teachers for inclusiveclassrooms.
Chris Colley (24:41):
It's not a lot of exposure really.
Devon Warnock (24:44):
They're not really getting that exposure,
and, at the end of the day,designing for diversity is what
you have to do.
Designing for diversity is whatyou have to do.
So I think that a lot of ourwork goes into providing them
with some skills and strategiesthat they haven't necessarily
seen before.
And so then, the minute you dothat.
(25:04):
they sometimes see that as extra, and so, to avoid that, if we
could get some courseworkinvolved, some stuff for them to
have access to before becominga full-time teacher and seeing
it as an extra, that's wherewe'll get the most bang for our
buck.
Because what we've learned, andwhat I learned as a teacher, is
that if I can design for, youknow, one lesson for all my kids
(25:26):
, I am saving 10 hours at night.
You know, going home at nightand back before the internet.
Well, I had the internet but Ididn't have Google, so I would
have to like cut things out andcut it with glue and then
photocopy it this way and notthat way.
And you know you spend hoursdoing that stuff and we know
that teachers lack that time andthey lack that.
You know sometimes they lacksupport and resources.
(25:47):
If you're in a school, in arural school, you may not have a
full-time resource teacher atyour school.
In a rural school, you may nothave a full-time resource
teacher at your school, you maynot have a consultant to come in
and work with you.
So if we can providepre-service teachers and early
career teachers with mentoringopportunities and opportunities
to ask questions and to practice, practice, practice.
I think that that can reallyservice us all in the long run,
(26:09):
because then it becomes.
You know, our school boards arereceiving these bright-eyed and
bushy-tailed teachers andwithin five years we can lose
them because they're overwhelmedand they're tired and they
don't feel equipped to help toteach a child with autism.
You know, they don't feelequipped to teach a child who
has a specific learningdisability in reading and
(26:29):
writing.
They've never had to do thatbefore.
So I think the more that we canprepare them, I think the
higher chance that we'll keepthem around.
Chris Colley (26:38):
Absolutely.
I totally agree with you onthat, because it is overwhelming
.
I mean, just remove inclusivity, which is ridiculous, but just
the teaching job is sooverwhelming and then having to
take into account the kids infront.
You can't just be up on thestage and just deliver stuff
anymore um because you knowyou're getting half the kids.
(27:00):
The other half are just rollingtheir eyes like what the heck
am I?
Jennifer Mercer (27:03):
doing here.
Chris Colley (27:04):
Um, this has been really fascinating.
I want to thank you guys first.
Before we, I have one lastquestion for you.
What is the ideal inclusiveenvironment in your opinion?
I saw that there was an article, a post put out on um through
Lester B's um news cast and ittalked about that and that
(27:28):
phrase, that sentence, reallypopped out at me.
What, what are some of theaspects that need to be in there
?
I mean, ideal is a big word,but an inclusive classroom that
is more inclusive, like ifyou're starting from very low,
what are some of the things thatare easy to get going to start
creating that inclusion withinyour class Routines and rituals?
Devon Warnock (27:53):
Say again, Kevin yeah, say again.
Routines and rituals.
If you can get a solid routineand ritual so your kids don't
have to think about how to learn, if they already know the way
that you're going to teach.
I know, jen, when you alwaysrefer back to the setup that you
had.
Your kids didn't have to thinkabout it, they knew.
Jennifer Mercer (28:15):
Yeah, lots of you know routines, rituals.
That certainly helps build theclass culture.
I also think that you knowshifting the language a little
bit, you know I I like that.
You know we call ourselvesconsultants for inclusive
education instead of.
You know we call ourselvesconsultants for inclusive
education instead of, you know,special education consultants.
(28:37):
I do like that.
But even more so if anybodyfollows Shelley Moore, you know
she has a diagram where she'sgot these bubbles that represent
, you know, segregation andintegration and inclusion, and
she sort of challenges us tothink about what's beyond that,
what is beyond inclusion, right,because when you look at your
(28:58):
classroom, everybody isindividual and everybody has
different needs and I thinkthat's sort of the whether it be
behavioral needs, whether it belearning needs, whether it be
everybody is diverse.
So I think it's sort of justkind of shifting our lens to
from what's normal to have in aclass quote unquote to just, you
know, acknowledging thateverybody's unique, everybody
(29:21):
has needs and you know, justkeeping that in mind when we
plan for them I think reallyreally will help teachers sort
of grasp the needs of theirclass and be able to plan for
those kids and not just the oneor two or four or five.
That have, you know, learningdifficulties or behavior
(29:41):
difficulties, but just keepingeveryone in mind, which is a
challenge, and, um, it can beoverwhelming, but hopefully, um
you know, through, through pdand through listening to
podcasts and all of those things, we'll get there.
Devon Warnock (29:56):
And I think, at the end of the day, a real sense
of inclusion in a classroom isthat it's more than just a
shared space, it's more thanjust routine and rituals, it's
it's having those relationshipsthat are solidly built where a
kid feels that they belong inyour class, because the minute a
kid feels they belong, you canget them to do anything so that
(30:17):
when you have that heightenedsense, then students, whether
they have exceptionalities ornot, they're more likely to
engage, they're more likely tocontribute and to form positive
relationships with their peers,which then you know, promotes a
stronger community in your class.
And because you know the flipside is that when you have an
inclusive school that don't haveinclusive instructional
(30:39):
practices, you have kids who are, you know, throwing stuff at
you and walking out of the classand are like this is too hard,
this is not for me, and so youhave on, the flip side is you
have kids who don't feel thatthey belong, that they don't
that know, they aren't plannedfor.
So I think when you build inthose rituals, routines, and
have that relationship and, youknow, use an inclusive framework
(31:02):
, you know, anyone in Quebec hasaccess to our toolkit.
They can go and check out allthe templates and lesson plans
that we've created and reallyit's just an invitation to to
use a master brain of a teacheron paper, and that's kind of
what we discovered.
I think it was Arla Connell.
(31:22):
She's a teacher for Maple Grove, she's fantastic, and she said
you know, this is what excellentteachers do.
But imagine we're just givingthis to brand new teachers, like
they're going to, they're goingto have this in their minds and
then it's just going to becomea ritual and a routine for them,
a habitual thing to be like.
Okay, I'm planning this method.
What's my baseline?
Okay, what can all of my kidsdo?
What could some of my kids do?
And look at it that way, I likethat.
(31:46):
Yeah.
Chris Colley (31:47):
But you can see it as kind of a structure that
you're bringing in and you'refollowing that structure.
I that you're bringing in andyou're following that structure.
I love the idea, too, ofrelationships.
I mean, I think that's whateducators do, is they create
relationships with others andhopefully positive, the most
positive relationships, becauseonce you have those, then
(32:07):
there's room to move and to knowand sometimes you're going to
get feedback from the studentthemselves of how they learn or
what they're not getting at.
So, totally, totally love that,totally love that.
Well, guys, this has beenreally fascinating.
You've made us all smarter outthere, the listeners, because it
is so important and it justneeds to be talked about more.
(32:31):
Like I, I love to the idea ofthe language, that we just need
to have a common language, thatwe start using um to set up some
of these rituals and routines,um.
So thank you, guys for this.
It's been really fascinatingthank you, chris.
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