Are our children spending too much time in the digital world and missing out on real-life experiences? What happens when we prioritize screens over face-to-face connections? These are the questions at the heart of my conversation with Katherine Martinko, author of "Childhood Unplugged: Practical Advice to Get Kids Off Screens and Find Balance.”
Katherine shares her unconventional upbringing in rural Ontario—homeschooled on a remote lakefront property with no television or internet—and how it shaped her approach to raising her own children in our hyper-connected world. Her perspective offers a refreshing counterpoint to prevailing parenting trends, as she and her husband have chosen to raise their children with limited and regulated tablets, smartphones, or television.
The conversation explores what Jonathan Haidt calls "the great rewiring of childhood"—that perfect storm when high-speed internet, smartphones, and social media collided with parental fears about "stranger danger", over-busy family lives and addictive devices that have social media. Katherine shares shocking statistics: children ages 8-12 now average 5.5 hours of entertainment screen time daily, while teenagers log nearly 9 hours—not including school-related tech use.
We also challenge common assumptions about technology and safety. Is a smartphone-equipped but distracted child truly safer than one who's fully present and aware of their surroundings? Katherine recounts how teens without phones navigate public transit more safely because they remain vigilant about potential dangers rather than absorbed in screens.
For parents feeling overwhelmed, Katherine offers practical strategies for every age group: establishing tech boundaries early with young children, implementing family "tech Sabbaths," using simpler devices for older kids, and "fixing your analog life" by creating homes rich with books, craft supplies, and opportunities for creative play. Her message is empowering: parents have the right to say no, set limits, and change course as new information emerges about technology's impact on developing brains.
Ready to help your children find balance in a screen-saturated world? Listen now and discover how unplugging might be the greatest gift you can give your family.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Colley (00:12):
Welcome everyone.
We are back here at Shift EdPodcast.
I have a local not a local,sorry a Canadian author.
I have Catherine Martinkocoming in with us today.
A great author editor put outthis amazing book Childhood
Unplugged Practical Advice toGet Kids Off Screens and Find
(00:33):
Balance and balance, catherine,is what we're all about, but I
do feel our world is off balancea little bit.
Thanks for coming and joiningme and I really want to get into
the meat of this topic becauseit's a hot topic that we're
dealing with now with our kidssocial media, screen time.
(00:56):
It's so relevant right now.
But I'd love to kind of get alittle bit of a background on
how did you come to get to thisspot in life?
I know the book has been superwell received.
Maybe like what was the journeyto get to writing this book and
getting it out there in theworld for the people to read?
Katherine Johnson Martinko (01:18):
Yes, well, it's great to be here
with you, chris, this morning.
I'm honored by the invitationto be on your podcast and that's
a good opening question.
What got me to this point?
It's certainly anunconventional place to be in
this world today that's so techsaturated, and I would say it
happened organically, genuinely.
It was not something that cameabout that consciously.
I was raised in rural Ontario ina region called Muskoka, which
(01:41):
is cottage country for those whoare familiar with that area.
I grew up on a lake with noyear-round neighbors, very
remote.
I was homeschooled for a numberof years, so it was quite an
unconventional, unorthodox wayto be raised with my younger
siblings, and so I spent a lotof time playing outside, tons
and tons of time out in thewilderness, in the forest, out
on the lake, in my rowboat,building a homemade potato gun,
(02:05):
building forts, exploring, and Ididn't have TV at home.
I didn't have an internetconnection.
In fact, my parents still don'thave an internet connection in
their home, which might soundquite archaic, but it is just
the way that they chose to live.
And when I met my husband, he'dhad sort of an opposite
upbringing and he's a wonderfulman.
He was raised in Mississaugaand was raised on a diet of
video games and excessive TVshows, and so when we heard
(02:28):
stories about our childhoods, hevery much felt that he had
missed out on a play-filled,adventurous childhood, you know,
joining in with other kids inthe neighborhood, riding bikes
around, having all kinds ofoutdoor games, of manhunt and
whatever it may be.
And he didn't have that.
And he heard my stories andfelt like my childhood had just
(02:51):
been so play filled and so richand exciting, and we decided
that we wanted that for our ownkids.
So in a way, we acknowledgedfrom the start that it's a lot
easier to just not start downthat path than it is to claw
back technology that's alreadybeen introduced, and this was
back in 2009.
I think that our view was alittle bit ahead of the time.
We didn't realize it at thetime, but it was shortly after
that that tablets andsmartphones exploded into
families lives and really tookover, and so we continue to
(03:12):
raise our kids without devices.
We don't have TV in the housetoday.
They've never been giventablets.
They still don't havesmartphones.
That being said, we are notanti-tech.
We are very much pro moderntechnology being a powerful,
useful tool in our lives.
But that's what it has to be atool, not a toy, not the primary
source of our entertainment.
Chris Colley (03:29):
Absolutely, absolutely Well said, and I
totally get this disconnect fromnature and playing.
I work a lot with preschoolteachers as well and we see it
even at these early young ageswhere we know play is the way.
What do you think some of thosethings were that started this
(03:51):
withdrawal and I love in yourbook too, because it does talk
about sitting too much, notsleeping enough, like all of
these consequences that socialmedia and screen time have on us
.
Where do you think that thisall started?
Coming from, this backing offof and retreating to the indoors
(04:12):
, to this sedentary kind ofwithdrawn life and this illusion
of social ability or socialnessvia screens?
Katherine Johnson Martinko (04:22):
Yes, Well, I would draw your
attention to the term the greatrewiring of childhood, which was
coined by social psychologistJonathan Haidt in his book the
Ancient Generation.
I also work with Jonathan I doa lot of speaking on behalf of
his organization so this issomething that I like to talk
about, and it refers to aclearly documented
transformation in the way thatchildren spend their time.
It started in the late 90s,early 2000s, with the arrival of
(04:44):
the internet in people's lives,and at first this was fantastic
, you know, bringing togetherpeople who had previously been
separated by distance.
They could now communicate overemail.
There was, you know, a certainamount of gaming.
That was quite enjoyable andthat was wonderful.
But then, after 2010, when itwhen high speed internet arrived
, when smartphones were inpeople's pockets, when social
media apps were developed, whenthe forward facing camera was
(05:06):
developed and kids could startposting selfies online, it
became so easy to spend timeonline that kids just started to
do a whole lot more of it.
But simultaneously, a lot ofparents were becoming less eager
to let their kids wander aroundoutside.
So there was a verywell-intentioned but disastrous
shift to overprotecting childrenand restricting their autonomy
(05:27):
in the real world, and soparents became very paranoid
about high-profile news storiesthey were hearing about
kidnappings.
They started to think that anychild wandering alone outside
was going to attract sexualpredators or kidnappers, and so
they started keeping their kidscloser to home, which was also
facilitated by the access to allof this technology, because,
trust me, you don't have thosedevices in the house.
You will not want your kidsindoors for 12 hours a day.
(05:50):
It will absolutely drive youcrazy, and so I think, in a way,
we have set ourselves up forthis technological addiction by
retreating from the real worldand making the indoor world so
much more appealing to both usas adults, as well as our kids.
Chris Colley (06:05):
Absolutely.
It's almost like this perfectstorm you're painting that we
had this kind of withdrawal atthe same time as this
introduction and it's reallykind of like caused a lot of
chaos amongst our young kids.
And I think Jonathan's bookreally reveals the statistics
behind it that since the dawn ofthe forward-facing camera, a
(06:28):
lot of the social media andstuff has exploded and they've
taken advantage.
I think you know, um I heardthat you were speaking um on
another podcast about, uh, thisidea of um treating social media
similar to like getting alicense, like a car license,
that there are certainawarenesses or restrictions we
(06:51):
have to be aware of to help ouryoung people because they just
don't have the capacity yet.
Could you expand on that idea alittle bit?
I just love that comparisonthat there is a similarity
between the two.
You know, even like smoking,you know, or vaping or whatever
you know, like it tends to bethis just kind of forget about
(07:12):
it.
Katherine Johnson Martinko (07:12):
Oh well, they'll deal with it, or
oh we'll let the parents dealwith it rather than looking at
it as a societal problem.
Mm, hmm, yes, so thatrecommendation about being 16
years old is actually thatrelates to getting a smartphone.
So getting a smartphone shouldbe on par with getting a
driver's license.
And that recommendation comesfrom Dr Jean Twenge.
She is a psychology professorat San Diego University and the
(07:35):
author of many well-known books,including iGen and Generations.
She's one of the originalresearchers in this field of the
effects of technology on kids,and for a long time I wondered
when she would let her kids havedevices.
This is a common question I have, like when do these experts let
their kids have phones, despiteeverything that they're saying?
Because I do think there's areally big disconnect between
the official guidelines and whatpeople are doing.
(07:57):
So I heard her in an interviewsay that she would give her own
three teenage daughterssmartphones when they turn 16.
And that has become myguideline.
So that is a little bit tougherthan the recommendation issued
by, say, Jonathan Haidt, whichhe says 14.
I think that he's trying to bea realist.
You know, there's so many kidswho are getting phones at age
four or six, eight years of agethat to hold out until 14 is
(08:20):
already considered reallyimpressive.
I think we should achieve 16 ifpossible.
That's what I'm striving forwith my own kids.
And then social media.
I don't think we should be onit.
Our kids should not be on ituntil 18.
I think they should get throughpuberty, they should get
through high school, ideally,and it's just not a place for
kids to be.
And this has been underscoredby last year's official advisory
(08:41):
issued by the US SurgeonGeneral, who said that we do not
have adequate evidence todetermine that social media is
safe for kids and thinks it's asharmful for kids, as you know.
It's as serious an issue as youknow seatbelts in cars and safe
aircraft and food safety andall of these things, and yet
we're just sort of brushing itoff.
It gets this free pass becauseeveryone's doing it.
Chris Colley (09:02):
Oh, I, totally, totally.
I do think we need to tightenup those rules a bit.
Yeah, yeah, and you hadmentioned too in a previous
interview as well, that schoolsare going after the social media
companies without reflecting onwhat they're doing as their own
practices.
What's your opinion on schooltaking action against?
(09:23):
You know too much screen timein their schools, like, where do
you stand with that?
Like, are you, are your kids ina school where there's limited
screen time that they haveaccess to, or can you expand on
that a bit?
Katherine Johnson Martinko (09:37):
Yeah , I think that there are so many
facets to this problem and somany different levels of problem
solving that need to happen.
It can be very easy andtempting to just pass the buck
and say that someone else shouldbe dealing with it, not us.
And I've heard the school boardsay why aren't the tech
companies doing something aboutit?
And they're suing the techcompanies for distracting
children.
And yet I have maintained fromthe beginning that schools could
(09:59):
be taking initiatives to solvea lot of these issues at school.
So my kids go to a publicschool here in Ontario.
As many of you know, ontariopassed a cell phone ban last
fall.
It's not much of a ban in myopinion, because the kids grade
seven and up are still allowedto carry the phones on their
person.
They're not supposed to checkthem and, as we all know, that's
not ever going to stop a kidfrom looking at their phone.
(10:20):
It certainly doesn't even stopan adult from looking at their
phone.
It's a complete disaster, in myopinion.
So the way that my children arestaying focused specifically is
they don't have phones.
My kids do not own smartphonesand even if they did, they would
not be allowed to take them toschool.
Ideally, we would like to seebell to bell phone bans where
children do not have access totheir personal smartphones
(10:41):
phones from nine in the morningtill three, 30 in the afternoon,
or whatever the duration of theday is.
That would include the breaksin between classes, as well as
recess and lunch, because thoseare just as important as class
time for forming great socialconnections with friends and
learning interpersonal skillsthat are valuable in life.
And I also think, though, thatoh and I should just say that
schools that have done this haveseen a tremendous increase in
(11:04):
test scores in students gettingalong, reductions in
cyberbullying, improvements in,you know, students getting along
, reductions in cyber bullying,improvements in mental health.
A corresponding decrease inneed for mental health services,
and cost also has been reduced.
Teachers report just greatersense of happiness in the
classroom.
You know their job becomes alot easier.
They shouldn't have to bepolicing these devices, so I
would like to see schools dothat right now.
(11:25):
It's up to the teachers in eachindividual classroom to set the
rules.
It shouldn't be be their job.
Their job is to be a broader,district wide, if not provincial
wide.
Mandate those phones at thedoor and say no, you need to
(11:49):
have six, seven hours today tofocus entirely on learning and
not be on a device, and I wishthat more parents would step up
and do that.
But the issues that a lot ofparents want to be able to reach
their child during the day, andthat's a whole other problem in
and of itself.
Chris Colley (11:59):
Totally.
Yeah.
It seems weird that I mean, wewant to make sure that our kids
are safe but we give them phonesand just let them, you know,
freely explore the internet.
You know one thing EmilyShurkin said she's like until
you're ready to talk about pornand like extreme violence
because they have access to allthis, they shouldn't be on these
(12:21):
phones right.
Like until you're prepared tohave these really big
conversations.
What, like?
What's the point?
Katherine Johnson Martinko (12:32):
Yeah , and there's a great question
I've heard from Catherine Price,who wrote a book called how to
Break Up With your Phone, and inone of her talks she says two
questions to ask yourself ifyou're considering giving your
kid a phone is are you ready foryour child to have access to
the entire internet?
Are you ready for the entireinternet to have access to your
child?
And if your answer is no toeither, one of those questions
you probably want to hold outgiving that device to your kid.
(12:54):
And parents really need toreconsider their concept of
safety.
So these devices are so oftenhanded over to their kids under
the guise of safety.
The parent thinks oh, because Ican reach my child, therefore
they are better off in the world.
But I challenged thatassumption.
I had a great conversation witha mother in Vancouver who has
two teenage daughters.
They ride public transit everysingle day to school.
They don't have smartphones.
(13:15):
And they came home and theywere telling their mother about
how worried they are.
Well, first they said howacutely aware they are of the
presence of creepy strangers.
So if they're standing in a busstop, they move away.
If someone a littlequestionable approaches them,
they know how to respond andsort of preempt the situation
before it gets messy.
But they told their mother thatthey're very concerned about
all the kids they see who areoblivious to their surroundings
(13:37):
because these have their earbudsin and they are looking at
TikTok videos or Instagram andthey are completely clueless as
to who's around them.
And the question is, who'sreally safer in that situation?
Is it the kid who couldhypothetically call their parent
in an emergency you know what'sthe parent going to do, really
or is it the kid who's relyingon this ancient neural circuitry
to detect and avoid danger andjust, you know, avoid getting
(14:00):
into a messy situation?
Because they're, you know,they've got their senses aware
and they're cluing into what'sgoing on around them?
So parents also need to thinkabout what they're opening up,
the can of worms that they'reopening up by giving their kids
that phone.
So not only is it distractingkids and removing them from the
real world, it is also exposingthem to overly mature content
that we would never let kidshave access to in the real world
(14:20):
.
There are many things that welimit and restrict in real life,
you know.
You can think about all the agegating that exists in terms of
buying cigarettes and alcoholand going to casinos and going
to strip clubs and watchingX-rated movies, r-rated movies,
all these things we try toprotect children, but when it
comes to phones, they haveaccess to all of that and it's
almost like it.
Chris Colley (14:40):
You, we've forgotten about that.
Right like it's.
Like, let's not think aboutthat, because I can get in touch
with them when I need to, incase there's a problem.
You know, like, what did you do10 years ago?
Right, like it's.
And and I guess my, myextension to that is, if parents
are always worried, like andit's funny, you talked about
helicopter parents I talked withLenore who is telling me it's
(15:04):
more like snowplow parents.
You know she was appropriatingit to Canada as well that it's
gotten extreme, thisprotectionism.
Yet this virtual is like thewild, wild west, like whatever
you know, and she was equatingit to like this stranger danger
of that it would, it would takehundreds and hundreds and
(15:27):
hundreds of years of a kidstanding on a corner before any
you know person would, would,adopt, adopt them, adopt them or
anything like that.
Right, so the, the, the, thereality of it is not hinged in
reality, it's.
It's this stranger danger of of, I don't know what, but it
(15:47):
seems to like have, have, havecollided with this, and I think,
because your book it came outat a really, really good time,
because all of this is likeright in our faces now and we're
having to have theseconversations and kind of be
like, hmm, wait a minute.
Um, what were some of the mostum surprising research that you
(16:08):
found when you were writing umchildhood unplugged?
Were there that you, when youwere researching the book, were
like, oh boy, this is uminteresting.
Katherine Johnson Martinko (16:22):
I mean there's a lot that's
surprising when you go deep intoany topic.
I would say there's just the.
The statistics are astonishingthemselves when you look at the
amount of screen time that kidsare accumulating.
I think often we underestimatehow much time people are on
devices.
But, uh, the latest stats showthat kids are accumulating.
I think often we underestimatehow much time people are on
devices, but the latest statsshow that kids between the ages
of eight and 12 are on theirphones for five and a half hours
a day, and teenagers betweenthe ages of 12 and 18 are on
(16:44):
their devices for eight hoursand 40 minutes a day on average.
And that is entertainment-basedscreen time only.
So that does not count anyscreen time that's being used in
school or for necessarycommunications or for homework.
So we're talking upwards ofnine hours a day and that is
going to push out everythingelse in a kid's life, like
that's that opportunity cost isoften discussed.
(17:04):
So even if the screen timeitself is not causing harm to
the child, they're missing outon all of these other
opportunities to be developingpractical life skills,
conversation skills, relationalskills, to be exercising, to be
sleeping, to be eating, to bebored, to develop bodies.
All of these things are justnot happening because the kids
are scrolling on their devicesand we know that they might be
interacting with people on theirdevices, but the quality of
(17:25):
those interactions is farinferior to anything that you
ever get online and there'sproblems.
Or in person, and there'sproblems that happen when that
sort of becomes the primary formof entertainment.
So I see the stats are shocking.
Another thing that struck me alittle bit different, but I
tried to interview parents wholived in rural settings as well
as parents who lived in urbansettings, and both types of
(17:47):
families believe that they'velived in the best possible place
to raise screen minimalistchildren with lots of outdoor
playtime, and I thought that wasso interesting because often
one group thinks that the other,you know, would be a lot harder
.
You know the urban parentsalways.
Often I get pushback saying ohwell, you can raise your kids
the way you do because you livein a small town, and I don't
believe that.
I think it's more of afoundational philosophy and
(18:08):
approach to life and I provedthat through the people that I
talked to.
I mean one family livesdowntown Toronto and they
thought this is the best placeto live with kids because we
have access to all of theseincredible resources swimming
pools and skating rinks andmuseums and galleries and
theaters and, you know, giantparks, all these things that you
(18:28):
can do.
And then I talked to a mom with40 acres in Northern Ontario
whose kids go out hunting in theback 40 and, you know, play in
a pond, and she said I don'tknow how we could do it if we
ever lived in a city.
So really it doesn't matterwhere you live.
Chris Colley (18:36):
I believe we can make it happen.
Absolutely, absolutely Well.
This has been reallyfascinating, catherine.
And to kind of end, let's goback to your book, and I mean
it's called Practical Advice toGetting your Kids Off Screen and
Finding Balance.
What are some of those advicesthat you can share?
Katherine Johnson Martinko (18:56):
to kind of close, yeah, well, I
think about it often as beingdivided into age groups.
So I think babies and toddlers,for instance, begin as you mean
to go on.
So establish the patterns andnorms within your household that
you want to continue, becauseit's always better to just start
out a certain way than to tryto reset it later.
You can reset, of course, butit's a lot more challenging.
(19:18):
Younger kids are the easiestdemographic to raise without
screens, because they willaccept whatever you establish in
the home without pushing backand they're also so easily
delighted by you, know simplethings and often we were giving
them tablets that are hyperstimulating and then we wonder
why they don't want something alittle bit simpler.
But you can sort of recalibratethat and and and and pull back
(19:38):
with older kids.
Oh, there's so much you can do.
I think you can.
You can do, like a tech, a techShabbat.
That's a wonderful practice asa family a 24 hour tech fast
where everyone in the familygets their devices and
reconnects and spends timeoutside and does other things.
You can buy simpler devices.
You can find simpler forms oftechnology that may enable the
(19:58):
kind of communication you wantwith your kid.
We have a desktop computer inour home that we let our boys
chat.
They can use iMessage from thecomputer, and so they're still
able to text their friends andbe part of group chats, get
their fair share of ridiculousmemes and videos and things like
that.
And yet that's where it stays.
It doesn't live in their pocket, it's not accessible throughout
the day as soon as they leave,so you're just sort of
introducing little bits offriction there to bring them
(20:20):
back into the real world.
So there are so many thingsthat you can do.
I think that very much it'sabout putting tech in its
rightful place and not lettingit, you know, colonize childhood
to the extent that it is.
Chris Colley (20:31):
Absolutely.
And I remember one thing yousaid that was so poignant say no
.
Like it's hard for parents tosay no, and I totally get if
it's established pre and you'rehaving to kind of pull it back.
It's way way trickier.
But if you have young kids andyou want to establish something,
now's the time to do it, tojust start saying no.
Katherine Johnson Martinko (20:52):
Yeah , and you, yeah.
You have the right to say no,you have the right to change
your mind, and that's the thingI tell a lot of parents.
Many tell me it's too late.
I don't know how to do this.
You have new information.
Honestly, the information thatwe have now compared to three
years ago, five years ago, it'stremendous.
The evidence from all of thesescientific studies are coming in
proving that kids are sufferingas a result of this extensive,
(21:12):
excessive screen time, and soyou totally can sit down with
your kid and say look, based onnew information I have, we are
going to be doing thingsdifferently.
There are some sample scriptsavailable on the Anxious
Generation resources page thatare fantastic.
So they come from psychologistDr Becky Kennedy, and she
actually will write out exactlywhat you can say to a teenager.
If you want to get them offsocial media or swap out their
(21:33):
smartphone for a basic phone,there are scripts that you can
use.
So you have permission to dothat.
And, and one final thing I oftentell parents is fix your analog
life first.
It's really important to fillthe analog world, the real world
, with interesting things foryour kid to do, even if it's
just toys, loose parts, books,craft supplies, things that you
can just leave them to do ontheir own.
(21:53):
You don't have to entertainthem by any means, but making
your house a place where theyhave things to do and then the
siren call of the devicesbecomes a little bit less
seductive.
Chris Colley (22:04):
Right, right.
And I'd say being boredsometimes is a good thing.
You know my kid always oh, I'mgoing to be bored.
It's boring when I, you know,restrict and you've got to just
say no this is best for you andyou'll thank me one day maybe.
Anyway, this is justfascinating.
(22:24):
I mean, this topic is not goingaway and, like you said, I think
that there's been a light shoneon it now over the last few
years and that we have to startaddressing it because, I mean,
these kids are going to begrowing up and being our leaders
(22:45):
one day and we need them tohave clear minds and balance in
life, rather than just all oneway.
Katherine Johnson Martinko (22:49):
Yeah , I agree, and I think that I
don't really buy the argumentthat we need to be teaching them
tech skills from a young age inorder to succeed professionally
.
I do think that this technologyis evolving so rapidly that
it's not going to look anythinglike this by the time they enter
the workforce.
It's designed to be intuitive,you know.
We all learned it.
Later in life they can too, andwhat is going to really matter
are knowing the skills that makethem human, these skills that
(23:12):
set them apart from the machines, and I think that that will put
them ahead in the long run.
Chris Colley (23:17):
Absolutely Real, concrete relationships with real
people that are live in frontof you, face to face.
Well, Catherine Martinko, thankyou so much.
Thanks for putting this bookout.
It's helped me in my practiceand I share it a lot with the
people that are around me.
Childhood Unplugged practicaladvice to get kids off screen
(23:39):
and find balance Excellent bookPlease go out and get it.
Find balanced excellent bookPlease go out and get it,
Catherine.
Thank you for your insight andwisdom and putting this book out
and the words that you put init, I think, will help us in the
long run.
So thank you for that andthanks for joining us today.
Katherine Johnson Martink (23:56):
Great .
Well, it was my pleasure.
I'm so happy to hear that youenjoyed the book.
Thank you.
Welcome everyone.
We are back here at Shift EdPodcast.
I have a local not a local,sorry a Canadian author.
I have Catherine Martinkocoming in with us today.
A great author editor put outthis amazing book Childhood
Unplugged Practical Advice toGet Kids Off Screens and Find
(00:33):
Balance and balance, catherine,is what we're all about, but I
do feel our world is off balancea little bit.
Thanks for coming and joiningme and I really want to get into
the meat of this topic becauseit's a hot topic that we're
dealing with now with our kidssocial media, screen time.
(00:56):
It's so relevant right now.
But I'd love to kind of get alittle bit of a background on
how did you come to get to thisspot in life?
I know the book has been superwell received.
Maybe like what was the journeyto get to writing this book and
getting it out there in theworld for the people to read?
Katherine Johnson Martinko (01:18):
Yes, well, it's great to be here
with you, chris, this morning.
I'm honored by the invitationto be on your podcast and that's
a good opening question.
What got me to this point?
It's certainly anunconventional place to be in
this world today that's so techsaturated, and I would say it
happened organically, genuinely.
It was not something that cameabout that consciously.
I was raised in rural Ontario ina region called Muskoka, which
(01:41):
is cottage country for those whoare familiar with that area.
I grew up on a lake with noyear-round neighbors, very
remote.
I was homeschooled for a numberof years, so it was quite an
unconventional, unorthodox wayto be raised with my younger
siblings, and so I spent a lotof time playing outside, tons
and tons of time out in thewilderness, in the forest, out
on the lake, in my rowboat,building a homemade potato gun,
(02:05):
building forts, exploring, and Ididn't have TV at home.
I didn't have an internetconnection.
In fact, my parents still don'thave an internet connection in
their home, which might soundquite archaic, but it is just
the way that they chose to live.
And when I met my husband, he'dhad sort of an opposite
upbringing and he's a wonderfulman.
He was raised in Mississaugaand was raised on a diet of
video games and excessive TVshows, and so when we heard
(02:28):
stories about our childhoods, hevery much felt that he had
missed out on a play-filled,adventurous childhood, you know,
joining in with other kids inthe neighborhood, riding bikes
around, having all kinds ofoutdoor games, of manhunt and
whatever it may be.
And he didn't have that.
And he heard my stories andfelt like my childhood had just
(02:51):
been so play filled and so richand exciting, and we decided
that we wanted that for our ownkids.
So in a way, we acknowledgedfrom the start that it's a lot
easier to just not start downthat path than it is to claw
back technology that's alreadybeen introduced, and this was
back in 2009.
I think that our view was alittle bit ahead of the time.
We didn't realize it at thetime, but it was shortly after
that that tablets andsmartphones exploded into
families lives and really tookover, and so we continue to
(03:12):
raise our kids without devices.
We don't have TV in the housetoday.
They've never been giventablets.
They still don't havesmartphones.
That being said, we are notanti-tech.
We are very much pro moderntechnology being a powerful,
useful tool in our lives.
But that's what it has to be atool, not a toy, not the primary
source of our entertainment.
Chris Colley (03:29):
Absolutely, absolutely Well said, and I
totally get this disconnect fromnature and playing.
I work a lot with preschoolteachers as well and we see it
even at these early young ageswhere we know play is the way.
What do you think some of thosethings were that started this
(03:51):
withdrawal and I love in yourbook too, because it does talk
about sitting too much, notsleeping enough, like all of
these consequences that socialmedia and screen time have on us
.
Where do you think that thisall started?
Coming from, this backing offof and retreating to the indoors
(04:12):
, to this sedentary kind ofwithdrawn life and this illusion
of social ability or socialnessvia screens?
Katherine Johnson Martinko (04:22):
Yes, Well, I would draw your
attention to the term the greatrewiring of childhood, which was
coined by social psychologistJonathan Haidt in his book the
Ancient Generation.
I also work with Jonathan I doa lot of speaking on behalf of
his organization so this issomething that I like to talk
about, and it refers to aclearly documented
transformation in the way thatchildren spend their time.
It started in the late 90s,early 2000s, with the arrival of
(04:44):
the internet in people's lives,and at first this was fantastic
, you know, bringing togetherpeople who had previously been
separated by distance.
They could now communicate overemail.
There was, you know, a certainamount of gaming.
That was quite enjoyable andthat was wonderful.
But then, after 2010, when itwhen high speed internet arrived
, when smartphones were inpeople's pockets, when social
media apps were developed, whenthe forward facing camera was
(05:06):
developed and kids could startposting selfies online, it
became so easy to spend timeonline that kids just started to
do a whole lot more of it.
But simultaneously, a lot ofparents were becoming less eager
to let their kids wander aroundoutside.
So there was a verywell-intentioned but disastrous
shift to overprotecting childrenand restricting their autonomy
(05:27):
in the real world, and soparents became very paranoid
about high-profile news storiesthey were hearing about
kidnappings.
They started to think that anychild wandering alone outside
was going to attract sexualpredators or kidnappers, and so
they started keeping their kidscloser to home, which was also
facilitated by the access to allof this technology, because,
trust me, you don't have thosedevices in the house.
You will not want your kidsindoors for 12 hours a day.
(05:50):
It will absolutely drive youcrazy, and so I think, in a way,
we have set ourselves up forthis technological addiction by
retreating from the real worldand making the indoor world so
much more appealing to both usas adults, as well as our kids.
Chris Colley (06:05):
Absolutely.
It's almost like this perfectstorm you're painting that we
had this kind of withdrawal atthe same time as this
introduction and it's reallykind of like caused a lot of
chaos amongst our young kids.
And I think Jonathan's bookreally reveals the statistics
behind it that since the dawn ofthe forward-facing camera, a
(06:28):
lot of the social media andstuff has exploded and they've
taken advantage.
I think you know, um I heardthat you were speaking um on
another podcast about, uh, thisidea of um treating social media
similar to like getting alicense, like a car license,
that there are certainawarenesses or restrictions we
(06:51):
have to be aware of to help ouryoung people because they just
don't have the capacity yet.
Could you expand on that idea alittle bit?
I just love that comparisonthat there is a similarity
between the two.
You know, even like smoking,you know, or vaping or whatever
you know, like it tends to bethis just kind of forget about
(07:12):
it.
Katherine Johnson Martinko (07:12):
Oh well, they'll deal with it, or
oh we'll let the parents dealwith it rather than looking at
it as a societal problem.
Mm, hmm, yes, so thatrecommendation about being 16
years old is actually thatrelates to getting a smartphone.
So getting a smartphone shouldbe on par with getting a
driver's license.
And that recommendation comesfrom Dr Jean Twenge.
She is a psychology professorat San Diego University and the
(07:35):
author of many well-known books,including iGen and Generations.
She's one of the originalresearchers in this field of the
effects of technology on kids,and for a long time I wondered
when she would let her kids havedevices.
This is a common question I have, like when do these experts let
their kids have phones, despiteeverything that they're saying?
Because I do think there's areally big disconnect between
the official guidelines and whatpeople are doing.
(07:57):
So I heard her in an interviewsay that she would give her own
three teenage daughterssmartphones when they turn 16.
And that has become myguideline.
So that is a little bit tougherthan the recommendation issued
by, say, Jonathan Haidt, whichhe says 14.
I think that he's trying to bea realist.
You know, there's so many kidswho are getting phones at age
four or six, eight years of agethat to hold out until 14 is
(08:20):
already considered reallyimpressive.
I think we should achieve 16 ifpossible.
That's what I'm striving forwith my own kids.
And then social media.
I don't think we should be onit.
Our kids should not be on ituntil 18.
I think they should get throughpuberty, they should get
through high school, ideally,and it's just not a place for
kids to be.
And this has been underscoredby last year's official advisory
(08:41):
issued by the US SurgeonGeneral, who said that we do not
have adequate evidence todetermine that social media is
safe for kids and thinks it's asharmful for kids, as you know.
It's as serious an issue as youknow seatbelts in cars and safe
aircraft and food safety andall of these things, and yet
we're just sort of brushing itoff.
It gets this free pass becauseeveryone's doing it.
Chris Colley (09:02):
Oh, I, totally, totally.
I do think we need to tightenup those rules a bit.
Yeah, yeah, and you hadmentioned too in a previous
interview as well, that schoolsare going after the social media
companies without reflecting onwhat they're doing as their own
practices.
What's your opinion on schooltaking action against?
(09:23):
You know too much screen timein their schools, like, where do
you stand with that?
Like, are you, are your kids ina school where there's limited
screen time that they haveaccess to, or can you expand on
that a bit?
Katherine Johnson Martinko (09:37):
Yeah , I think that there are so many
facets to this problem and somany different levels of problem
solving that need to happen.
It can be very easy andtempting to just pass the buck
and say that someone else shouldbe dealing with it, not us.
And I've heard the school boardsay why aren't the tech
companies doing something aboutit?
And they're suing the techcompanies for distracting
children.
And yet I have maintained fromthe beginning that schools could
(09:59):
be taking initiatives to solvea lot of these issues at school.
So my kids go to a publicschool here in Ontario.
As many of you know, ontariopassed a cell phone ban last
fall.
It's not much of a ban in myopinion, because the kids grade
seven and up are still allowedto carry the phones on their
person.
They're not supposed to checkthem and, as we all know, that's
not ever going to stop a kidfrom looking at their phone.
(10:20):
It certainly doesn't even stopan adult from looking at their
phone.
It's a complete disaster, in myopinion.
So the way that my children arestaying focused specifically is
they don't have phones.
My kids do not own smartphonesand even if they did, they would
not be allowed to take them toschool.
Ideally, we would like to seebell to bell phone bans where
children do not have access totheir personal smartphones
(10:41):
phones from nine in the morningtill three, 30 in the afternoon,
or whatever the duration of theday is.
That would include the breaksin between classes, as well as
recess and lunch, because thoseare just as important as class
time for forming great socialconnections with friends and
learning interpersonal skillsthat are valuable in life.
And I also think, though, thatoh and I should just say that
schools that have done this haveseen a tremendous increase in
(11:04):
test scores in students gettingalong, reductions in
cyberbullying, improvements in,you know, students getting along
, reductions in cyber bullying,improvements in mental health.
A corresponding decrease inneed for mental health services,
and cost also has been reduced.
Teachers report just greatersense of happiness in the
classroom.
You know their job becomes alot easier.
They shouldn't have to bepolicing these devices, so I
would like to see schools dothat right now.
(11:25):
It's up to the teachers in eachindividual classroom to set the
rules.
It shouldn't be be their job.
Their job is to be a broader,district wide, if not provincial
wide.
Mandate those phones at thedoor and say no, you need to
(11:49):
have six, seven hours today tofocus entirely on learning and
not be on a device, and I wishthat more parents would step up
and do that.
But the issues that a lot ofparents want to be able to reach
their child during the day, andthat's a whole other problem in
and of itself.
Chris Colley (11:59):
Totally.
Yeah.
It seems weird that I mean, wewant to make sure that our kids
are safe but we give them phonesand just let them, you know,
freely explore the internet.
You know one thing EmilyShurkin said she's like until
you're ready to talk about pornand like extreme violence
because they have access to allthis, they shouldn't be on these
(12:21):
phones right.
Like until you're prepared tohave these really big
conversations.
What, like?
What's the point?
Katherine Johnson Martinko (12:32):
Yeah , and there's a great question
I've heard from Catherine Price,who wrote a book called how to
Break Up With your Phone, and inone of her talks she says two
questions to ask yourself ifyou're considering giving your
kid a phone is are you ready foryour child to have access to
the entire internet?
Are you ready for the entireinternet to have access to your
child?
And if your answer is no toeither, one of those questions
you probably want to hold outgiving that device to your kid.
(12:54):
And parents really need toreconsider their concept of
safety.
So these devices are so oftenhanded over to their kids under
the guise of safety.
The parent thinks oh, because Ican reach my child, therefore
they are better off in the world.
But I challenged thatassumption.
I had a great conversation witha mother in Vancouver who has
two teenage daughters.
They ride public transit everysingle day to school.
They don't have smartphones.
(13:15):
And they came home and theywere telling their mother about
how worried they are.
Well, first they said howacutely aware they are of the
presence of creepy strangers.
So if they're standing in a busstop, they move away.
If someone a littlequestionable approaches them,
they know how to respond andsort of preempt the situation
before it gets messy.
But they told their mother thatthey're very concerned about
all the kids they see who areoblivious to their surroundings
(13:37):
because these have their earbudsin and they are looking at
TikTok videos or Instagram andthey are completely clueless as
to who's around them.
And the question is, who'sreally safer in that situation?
Is it the kid who couldhypothetically call their parent
in an emergency you know what'sthe parent going to do, really
or is it the kid who's relyingon this ancient neural circuitry
to detect and avoid danger andjust, you know, avoid getting
(14:00):
into a messy situation?
Because they're, you know,they've got their senses aware
and they're cluing into what'sgoing on around them?
So parents also need to thinkabout what they're opening up,
the can of worms that they'reopening up by giving their kids
that phone.
So not only is it distractingkids and removing them from the
real world, it is also exposingthem to overly mature content
that we would never let kidshave access to in the real world
(14:20):
.
There are many things that welimit and restrict in real life,
you know.
You can think about all the agegating that exists in terms of
buying cigarettes and alcoholand going to casinos and going
to strip clubs and watchingX-rated movies, r-rated movies,
all these things we try toprotect children, but when it
comes to phones, they haveaccess to all of that and it's
almost like it.
Chris Colley (14:40):
You, we've forgotten about that.
Right like it's.
Like, let's not think aboutthat, because I can get in touch
with them when I need to, incase there's a problem.
You know, like, what did you do10 years ago?
Right, like it's.
And and I guess my, myextension to that is, if parents
are always worried, like andit's funny, you talked about
helicopter parents I talked withLenore who is telling me it's
(15:04):
more like snowplow parents.
You know she was appropriatingit to Canada as well that it's
gotten extreme, thisprotectionism.
Yet this virtual is like thewild, wild west, like whatever
you know, and she was equatingit to like this stranger danger
of that it would, it would takehundreds and hundreds and
(15:27):
hundreds of years of a kidstanding on a corner before any
you know person would, would,adopt, adopt them, adopt them or
anything like that.
Right, so the, the, the, thereality of it is not hinged in
reality, it's.
It's this stranger danger of of, I don't know what, but it
(15:47):
seems to like have, have, havecollided with this, and I think,
because your book it came outat a really, really good time,
because all of this is likeright in our faces now and we're
having to have theseconversations and kind of be
like, hmm, wait a minute.
Um, what were some of the mostum surprising research that you
(16:08):
found when you were writing umchildhood unplugged?
Were there that you, when youwere researching the book, were
like, oh boy, this is uminteresting.
Katherine Johnson Martinko (16:22):
I mean there's a lot that's
surprising when you go deep intoany topic.
I would say there's just the.
The statistics are astonishingthemselves when you look at the
amount of screen time that kidsare accumulating.
I think often we underestimatehow much time people are on
devices.
But, uh, the latest stats showthat kids are accumulating.
I think often we underestimatehow much time people are on
devices, but the latest statsshow that kids between the ages
of eight and 12 are on theirphones for five and a half hours
a day, and teenagers betweenthe ages of 12 and 18 are on
(16:44):
their devices for eight hoursand 40 minutes a day on average.
And that is entertainment-basedscreen time only.
So that does not count anyscreen time that's being used in
school or for necessarycommunications or for homework.
So we're talking upwards ofnine hours a day and that is
going to push out everythingelse in a kid's life, like
that's that opportunity cost isoften discussed.
(17:04):
So even if the screen timeitself is not causing harm to
the child, they're missing outon all of these other
opportunities to be developingpractical life skills,
conversation skills, relationalskills, to be exercising, to be
sleeping, to be eating, to bebored, to develop bodies.
All of these things are justnot happening because the kids
are scrolling on their devicesand we know that they might be
interacting with people on theirdevices, but the quality of
(17:25):
those interactions is farinferior to anything that you
ever get online and there'sproblems.
Or in person, and there'sproblems that happen when that
sort of becomes the primary formof entertainment.
So I see the stats are shocking.
Another thing that struck me alittle bit different, but I
tried to interview parents wholived in rural settings as well
as parents who lived in urbansettings, and both types of
(17:47):
families believe that they'velived in the best possible place
to raise screen minimalistchildren with lots of outdoor
playtime, and I thought that wasso interesting because often
one group thinks that the other,you know, would be a lot harder
.
You know the urban parentsalways.
Often I get pushback saying ohwell, you can raise your kids
the way you do because you livein a small town, and I don't
believe that.
I think it's more of afoundational philosophy and
(18:08):
approach to life and I provedthat through the people that I
talked to.
I mean one family livesdowntown Toronto and they
thought this is the best placeto live with kids because we
have access to all of theseincredible resources swimming
pools and skating rinks andmuseums and galleries and
theaters and, you know, giantparks, all these things that you
(18:28):
can do.
And then I talked to a mom with40 acres in Northern Ontario
whose kids go out hunting in theback 40 and, you know, play in
a pond, and she said I don'tknow how we could do it if we
ever lived in a city.
So really it doesn't matterwhere you live.
Chris Colley (18:36):
I believe we can make it happen.
Absolutely, absolutely Well.
This has been reallyfascinating, catherine.
And to kind of end, let's goback to your book, and I mean
it's called Practical Advice toGetting your Kids Off Screen and
Finding Balance.
What are some of those advicesthat you can share?
Katherine Johnson Martinko (18:56):
to kind of close, yeah, well, I
think about it often as beingdivided into age groups.
So I think babies and toddlers,for instance, begin as you mean
to go on.
So establish the patterns andnorms within your household that
you want to continue, becauseit's always better to just start
out a certain way than to tryto reset it later.
You can reset, of course, butit's a lot more challenging.
(19:18):
Younger kids are the easiestdemographic to raise without
screens, because they willaccept whatever you establish in
the home without pushing backand they're also so easily
delighted by you, know simplethings and often we were giving
them tablets that are hyperstimulating and then we wonder
why they don't want something alittle bit simpler.
But you can sort of recalibratethat and and and and pull back
(19:38):
with older kids.
Oh, there's so much you can do.
I think you can.
You can do, like a tech, a techShabbat.
That's a wonderful practice asa family a 24 hour tech fast
where everyone in the familygets their devices and
reconnects and spends timeoutside and does other things.
You can buy simpler devices.
You can find simpler forms oftechnology that may enable the
(19:58):
kind of communication you wantwith your kid.
We have a desktop computer inour home that we let our boys
chat.
They can use iMessage from thecomputer, and so they're still
able to text their friends andbe part of group chats, get
their fair share of ridiculousmemes and videos and things like
that.
And yet that's where it stays.
It doesn't live in their pocket, it's not accessible throughout
the day as soon as they leave,so you're just sort of
introducing little bits offriction there to bring them
(20:20):
back into the real world.
So there are so many thingsthat you can do.
I think that very much it'sabout putting tech in its
rightful place and not lettingit, you know, colonize childhood
to the extent that it is.
Chris Colley (20:31):
Absolutely.
And I remember one thing yousaid that was so poignant say no
.
Like it's hard for parents tosay no, and I totally get if
it's established pre and you'rehaving to kind of pull it back.
It's way way trickier.
But if you have young kids andyou want to establish something,
now's the time to do it, tojust start saying no.
Katherine Johnson Martinko (20:52):
Yeah , and you, yeah.
You have the right to say no,you have the right to change
your mind, and that's the thingI tell a lot of parents.
Many tell me it's too late.
I don't know how to do this.
You have new information.
Honestly, the information thatwe have now compared to three
years ago, five years ago, it'stremendous.
The evidence from all of thesescientific studies are coming in
proving that kids are sufferingas a result of this extensive,
(21:12):
excessive screen time, and soyou totally can sit down with
your kid and say look, based onnew information I have, we are
going to be doing thingsdifferently.
There are some sample scriptsavailable on the Anxious
Generation resources page thatare fantastic.
So they come from psychologistDr Becky Kennedy, and she
actually will write out exactlywhat you can say to a teenager.
If you want to get them offsocial media or swap out their
(21:33):
smartphone for a basic phone,there are scripts that you can
use.
So you have permission to dothat.
And, and one final thing I oftentell parents is fix your analog
life first.
It's really important to fillthe analog world, the real world
, with interesting things foryour kid to do, even if it's
just toys, loose parts, books,craft supplies, things that you
can just leave them to do ontheir own.
(21:53):
You don't have to entertainthem by any means, but making
your house a place where theyhave things to do and then the
siren call of the devicesbecomes a little bit less
seductive.
Chris Colley (22:04):
Right, right.
And I'd say being boredsometimes is a good thing.
You know my kid always oh, I'mgoing to be bored.
It's boring when I, you know,restrict and you've got to just
say no this is best for you andyou'll thank me one day maybe.
Anyway, this is justfascinating.
(22:24):
I mean, this topic is not goingaway and, like you said, I think
that there's been a light shoneon it now over the last few
years and that we have to startaddressing it because, I mean,
these kids are going to begrowing up and being our leaders
(22:45):
one day and we need them tohave clear minds and balance in
life, rather than just all oneway.
Katherine Johnson Martinko (22:49):
Yeah , I agree, and I think that I
don't really buy the argumentthat we need to be teaching them
tech skills from a young age inorder to succeed professionally
.
I do think that this technologyis evolving so rapidly that
it's not going to look anythinglike this by the time they enter
the workforce.
It's designed to be intuitive,you know.
We all learned it.
Later in life they can too, andwhat is going to really matter
are knowing the skills that makethem human, these skills that
(23:12):
set them apart from the machines, and I think that that will put
them ahead in the long run.
Chris Colley (23:17):
Absolutely Real, concrete relationships with real
people that are live in frontof you, face to face.
Well, Catherine Martinko, thankyou so much.
Thanks for putting this bookout.
It's helped me in my practiceand I share it a lot with the
people that are around me.
Childhood Unplugged practicaladvice to get kids off screen
(23:39):
and find balance Excellent bookPlease go out and get it.
Find balanced excellent bookPlease go out and get it,
Catherine.
Thank you for your insight andwisdom and putting this book out
and the words that you put init, I think, will help us in the
long run.
So thank you for that andthanks for joining us today.
Katherine Johnson Martink (23:56):
Great .
Well, it was my pleasure.
I'm so happy to hear that youenjoyed the book.
Thank you.
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