September 9, 2025 • 26 mins
The evolving story of English education rights in Quebec takes center stage as Joe Ortona, Chair of the English Montreal School Board and President of the Quebec English School Board Association, shares his journey and insights. What began as a chance opportunity in 2014 has grown into a commitment to preserving the cultural identity and educational rights of Quebec’s English-speaking community.
Ortona highlights how English schools serve as vital community hubs while fostering true bilingualism—preparing students to thrive in both languages while maintaining strong cultural connections. The discussion explores the unique role these schools play: helping students succeed in a French-majority province while exercising their constitutionally protected autonomy.
At the heart of current challenges are new laws and policy shifts, such as Bill 96 and Bill 40, which have introduced significant changes in the way English education is delivered and governed. These measures raise important questions about how best to protect French while also ensuring that Quebec’s English-speaking families maintain access to quality education in their language of choice. Court challenges and community engagement have played a central role in clarifying these rights and reaffirming the constitutional protections that exist.
The episode also underscores the importance of community vigilance and active participation. Beyond the legal arena, the ongoing involvement of parents, educators, and citizens is what sustains educational rights. When communities are informed and engaged, they are best able to preserve the delicate balance between respecting the French language and culture while protecting the longstanding rights of the English-speaking population.
Listen in to understand what’s at stake for Quebec’s educational future, and how these efforts impact students, families, and communities across the province.
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Episode Transcript
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Chris Colley (00:15):
Welcome back to another episode, another school
season of Shifted Podcastpodcast.
We have a lifer Quebecer,montrealer, Joe Ortona from EMSB
, chair of the governing boardand also president of the Quebec
English School BoardAssociation and a real advocate
(00:36):
for Anglo services and educationwithin Quebec.
And I asked Joe to come on herebecause I know he dabbles a lot
with all of these bills andcharters and amendments that are
happening in our schoolspresently and I thought it would
be a good kind of refresher orso that we're all on the same
(00:58):
page and we start to understanda little bit better.
I think knowledge is power andJoe is going to share a lot of
that knowledge with us today.
So, joe, thanks so much forhopping on here today and taking
a bit of time to share some ofyour thoughts and ideas about
the English education system inQuebec.
Joe Ortona (01:17):
Well, thanks for having me on.
I'm really looking forward toit.
Chris Colley (01:21):
So, Joe, maybe just to kind of build a little
bit of foundation.
Like I mentioned, I mean yougrew up in the Montreal area.
You've been a part of Quebecfabric for your career and your
personal life as well.
How did you come into the rolesthat you're in now, as you know
(01:45):
, the president of the QuebecEnglish School Board Association
, also the chairman of the EMSBgoverning board.
How did those come to you?
Joe Ortona (01:54):
You know, to be honest, it actually first
started kind of by chance In2014,.
(02:23):
People were looking forcandidates, uh, uh, young
parents, young families thatwere moving in that area a
little closer to my age, and hewas really the first one who
approached me about it.
Uh, prior to that, I had nevergiven it, um, I had never given
it any thought, uh, to be honest, but, but it kind of intrigued
me.
And then, as I it at anythought, uh, to be honest, but
(02:46):
but it kind of intrigued me.
And then, as I, as I learnedabout it, um it, it was
something that was interestingto me.
And then I wound up saying, youknow, why not give it a shot,
just to try something new?
And it turned out.
I, I very much enjoyed it andI've never regretted it since.
And I, I went from being theschool commissioner to,
eventually, the chair of theEnglish Montreal School Board
(03:08):
and then, you know, eventuallypresident of the Quebec English
School Boards Association.
Chris Colley (03:15):
Amazing and, Joe, what's your drive behind English
education in Quebec?
In Quebec, like personally,like what, what, what gets you
going about that?
And and the passion that youhave for it, um is evident in in
our community.
Um, can you, can you explore alittle bit of that with us?
Joe Ortona (03:37):
Um sure, I mean.
I mean, my drive was, uh, assoon as I started to get
involved, I quickly saw that,you know, our, our cultural
identity is, is is reallyovershadowed by the French
speaking majority in Quebec andand our and our identity is, is
(03:59):
still important and and we stillcontribute greatly to Quebec
society.
You know, we, as an Englishspeaking community, we promote
bilingualism and we want tostrengthen Quebec society but
also recognize that Quebecsociety is diverse and we want
to build on that inclusivesociety and ensure that, you
(04:22):
know, the students that comethrough our system, you know,
have those opportunities wherethey can become, you know,
lifelong Quebecers and be ableto not only study here but be
able to work here and besuccessful and fully bilingual,
to be able to speak English andFrench proficiently, right right
(04:47):
, and are you seeing where, whenkids graduate in an English
school or in an English schoolboard, what's the likelihood of
them actually staying in Quebecversus going elsewhere?
Chris Colley (05:04):
And what are some of the things that we could do
in the educational system thatwould draw them, to make them
feel like to stay rather than todecide OK, I'm going to go to
another province or anothercountry because our graduation
rates are really great.
They're up there.
How do we keep those kids fromleaving and wanting to stay here
(05:27):
?
Joe Ortona (05:27):
Yeah, um that's a great question.
A lot of that, however, thatgoes to, the government of
Quebec as well.
I mean, our responsibility isit be able to educate children
who have opportunities all overthe world.
(05:47):
If that's possible, I thinkthat that's great.
What we don't want is peopleleaving because they don't have
any options here in Quebec.
That's really the concern.
(06:09):
The concern and what we do is,again, we ensure that we offer
strong bilingual education.
We have, you know, great Frenchprograms that make it such that
if anybody wants to stay inQuebec, they can.
They can do theirpost-secondary studies in Quebec
(06:32):
and work in French and be verysuccessful.
The government has to do itspart, however, in ensuring that
English-speaking Quebecers feelwelcome and feel included in
Quebec society.
When the government talks aboutQuebec in general, that's not
(06:57):
always the case, depending onwhich government is there, but
we certainly want to make surethat getting an English
education in an English schoolwith a strong French program
doesn't limit any opportunitiesand, in fact, opens as many
doors as possible.
Chris Colley (07:15):
Absolutely, and we've kind of been seeing in the
news as of late some of thatstruggle, right that's coming in
and kind of the over.
I read somewhere where this newBill 96, and correct me if I'm
wrong is kind of this extrablanket over Bill 101 that came
out in the 70s, right, likethere's this more reinforcement
(07:39):
almost of this protecting, and Iunderstand that and I
appreciate that the anglophonecommunity, I'm saying, in a
difficult position at times whenit seems like it's one way that
the government's trying to withtheir laws and their amendments
(08:00):
and stuff.
Could you kind of walk usthrough a little bit of Bill 96,
which, from what I know, is nowa law that's being contested?
Can you like walk us throughbaby steps through that, so that
our listeners kind of get abetter idea, um, and more versed
a little bit in therepercussions of such, um, you
(08:24):
know, a bill?
Joe Ortona (08:25):
Yeah, so there's, there's a lot in bill 96.
It'd be really difficult tocover it in a couple of
sentences, but essentially, youknow, bill 96 doesn't actually
do anything to protect orpromote the French language and
(08:46):
that's really the main objectionwe've had about it from day one
.
It should be what everybodyobjects to because, uh, when we
talk about what the mainobjective?
To dissuade people from usingEnglish, to punish people, to
(09:19):
bar them from, you know, beingable to go to English CGEP, and
that's really where we takeexception.
Bill 96 requires English schoolboards, for example, to have to
communicate um in French,including internally, when we're
(09:40):
writing, you know sendingemails to each other, uh,
elected officials to electedofficials, or administrators to
uh, uh to to their staff.
I mean that that's, I meananybody I speak to.
When I mentioned that justtells me that that's absurd.
Of course there's stricterrequirements in order to get
(10:05):
into English CEGEP.
There's they've added threecore French classes for students
in English CEGEPS.
They've set up enrollment capsfor English CEGEPS so that, you
know, basically is limitingeducational pathways and choices
that students have.
(10:25):
So there's all of those thingsin which we take exception and,
of course, something that we'vebeen saying for years on bill 96
and bill 21 and bill 40, whichis, you know, english school
boards are constitutionallyprotected that the government
cannot tell us, uh, how weoperate, they cannot tell us how
(10:46):
to manage, uh and control ourschool system and, um, tell us
the language that we're supposedto communicate in, when,
specifically, language is thenumber one thing that is
protected for a minoritylanguage school board.
You know, then the governmentleaves us very little choice but
(11:08):
to have to go to court toassert our rights, which is
essentially what we did.
Chris Colley (11:14):
Right, and you mentioning that too, like I know
that the French system turnedinto Centre de Service a couple
of years ago and we're stillrecognized as school boards on
the English in the Englishsystem of education.
Where is that at right now?
Is that still in court?
(11:37):
And and and going through youknow, the cogs of of legal um
processes and like what's thehope of that?
Like what's the hope of will webe able to maintain english
school boards?
And, and you know, avoid this,the shifting where the
government seems to be much morein control of who is going to
be in those schools, runningthem, as opposed to the
community bringing, you know,electing the people that they
(11:58):
want to see in those schoolboards.
Joe Ortona (12:01):
So so there's a there.
There's two parts to thatanswer.
Um, you know where where we are, um, legally uh, and and.
Um, legally uh, and and.
And.
Then where where we are inpractice.
So, legally, we're in a verygood place.
(12:23):
As soon as the government passedbill 40, which was their bill
to abolish school boards, andessentially did abolish all of
the uh school boards on theFrench side and replaced them
with a very undemocratic andbureaucratic school service
center model, we were able to goto court and we successfully
obtained a stay, which is likean injunction.
(12:44):
It essentially means that theapplication of the law is
suspended, and it was suspendedfor English language school
boards.
That was the case since 2020.
And the government appealedthat stay and the court of
appeal upheld the stay.
And that's really remarkablebecause stays are very difficult
(13:06):
to obtain.
The threshold is very high.
You have to demonstrate thatyou would suffer, and you have
to prove it that you wouldsuffer, as a community, an
irreparable harm from the billcoming into effect and that that
harm is immediate and virtuallyirreversible.
(13:27):
And we were able to meet thatthreshold, which is already rare
in and of itself, but manytimes when stays like that are
granted, they're usuallyoverturned on appeal.
And the reason why I say thatis because there is a general
principle that governments passlaws to meet certain objectives.
(13:49):
There are, they have, they getto set their own priorities and
there's always that presumptionthat when the government does
pass a bill that it isconstitutional, so the onus is
on the person who's contesting.
The fact that we were able toget the stay maintained on
(14:11):
appeal is something that hashappened only a handful of times
in all of Canadian history.
So that gives you an idea howextremely rare getting a stay
and having it upheld on appealis.
And then we got the judgment onthe merits a few years later,
which again the governmentappealed and which the
government lost on appeal.
(14:32):
So they lost four times in arow on Bill 40.
Now they've asked the SupremeCourt of Canada for permission
to appeal.
We have not yet heard if theSupreme Court will allow the
appeal to happen.
They may, they may not,obviously.
If they don't, then that willbe the end of the legal avenues
(14:54):
and we're going to be able tocontinue to operate as school
boards in theory.
In practice regard, even if thecourts side with us.
You know we always have to makesure that we remain vigilant
and that the government willalways try to claw back powers
and try to impose their will.
(15:14):
And we have to make sure thatwe remain vigilant and we have
to be diligent and make surethat when they do try to claw
back, that we push back and thatwe preserve the rights that are
constitutionally guaranteed tous.
Chris Colley (15:29):
Right and do you see a future where these ongoing
battles might eventually besettled?
And like, I guess my questionis what would be an ideal future
for Anglo education If these,you know, all these bills get
settled?
And like, what's the visionthat you hope to see down the
(15:54):
road for Anglo service?
English educational services?
Joe Ortona (16:00):
Yeah, that's a really great question.
I mean, the the only thing thatwe could hope for and what we
should be striving for is, uh,for the government of quebec who
you know, whichever party it isthat's in power uh, but that
the government of quebec finallygets it and understands that,
when it comes to minoritylanguage public education, that
(16:24):
they do not have the exclusiveauthority to be able to just
impose whatever it is they want,you know, without any, without
any limitations.
Everybody remembers theirhistory class and remembers the
division of powers at the timeof Confederation, and section 22
(16:47):
, sorry, section 92 includededucation and it being of
exclusive provincialjurisdiction.
However, we now, since then,have a Canadian Charter of
Rights and freedoms.
We've had it since 1982.
And, essentially what section 23does is, um, most of them, you
(17:09):
know, french language education,private education, cgeps.
But when it comes to Englishlanguage public education,
(17:32):
there's a shared jurisdictionbetween the province and the
English-speaking community, andwhat that means is that the
government of Quebec gets todecide some things, the
English-speaking community getsto decide some things,
especially when it comes tothings that touch upon language
and culture, and there's ashared jurisdiction, and so the
(17:52):
government has to recognize thatwe are a partner when it comes
to public education.
I mean, that's the ideal, andas long as the government
doesn't get that, it'sunfortunate.
But we're going to findourselves in court more often
than not, and when thegovernment doesn't respect the
decisions that are decided byQuebec judges, then we have no
(18:14):
choice but to do what we did inthe latest court challenge on
the budget cuts, which is to say, the courts have already
decided this and the governmentis disregarding the law and the
constitution, and now we'reseeking punitive damages.
Chris Colley (18:29):
Wow, wow, yeah, I mean I was going to talk about
that too.
Those challenges of I mean,what is it $570 million cut in
education?
I mean, what is it A $570million cut in education?
I mean it seems like and I'mstarting to see the ground, you
know, on the ground level of youknow no opportunities for
(18:49):
professional development, youknow less teachers Like, the
repercussions are going to befelt big time, particularly for
us who are consultants and we doworkshops and support teachers
and kids in their learning.
It puts us in a very difficultposition to how do we offer
these services that we have forour community?
What is the hope of thislawsuit against this massive
(19:17):
that that we're going toexperience this year?
Joe Ortona (19:21):
Well, the, the I mean the hope of the lawsuit if
I can sum it up in one sentenceis is to stop these cuts from
actually occurring.
That's one of the things we'reseeking.
We're seeking a stay now on, uh,on the budgetary measures that
the government wants to imposeon us.
So you know they want us to meetcertain caps when it comes to
(19:47):
employees and you know they wantto bar us from being able to
use our accumulated surplus,which is money that we've saved
over the years through, you know, fiscal, fiscally responsible
management and control, um andand.
So what we're saying is youcan't do this, and that's why
(20:09):
we're going to court, because,everybody understands, uh, from
the elected school commissionersto all of the staff, all of the
pedagogues and the parents.
We all understand that if wehad to meet the targets that the
government was asking to meetand and cutting what they were
(20:29):
asking us to cut, and adopt agreatly reduced budget, we would
have to slash services thatwould have a detrimental impact
on the quality of education thatthe children receive, and a lot
of services would be greatlyreduced and some would be
eliminated.
(20:50):
So it's very, very concerning.
You know, all of this will mostlikely be decided within the
next month, because the courtsunderstand that we do have to
adopt the budget very soon.
So they're going to make everyeffort to ensure that that's
heard and decided very quickly.
Chris Colley (21:12):
Interesting.
What can we do as an Anglophonecommunity to support one
another more on these kind of Idon't want to say infringement,
but it rights as Anglo citizensin Quebec and the rights that we
have from the Charter?
Joe Ortona (21:27):
Yeah, Well, I know, with the number of pending court
(21:53):
cases that we have, it's easyto get the impression that we're
running to the courts.
That's not the case.
You know, we go to court as alast resort and oftentimes we
find ourselves in a situationwhere, when we actually push
(22:13):
back and we tell the government,you know we are not going to do
this, and we tell thegovernment, you know we are not
going to do this that theyactually don't react at all.
And so the message that Ialways keep reminding my
colleagues is they know we havethese rights.
They're counting on us eitherfeeling intimidated from
(22:34):
asserting our rights or they'recounting on us not understanding
our rights or necessarily whenthey apply.
So we shouldn't feel afraid topush back when we know that
we're right and when we knowthat we're exercising our rights
and powers that we have andpowers that we have.
(22:57):
So you know everybody in theEnglish speaking community,
whether you're your parents ofchildren currently in the system
, or your children went throughthe system, or or you're you're
now grandparents of children inthe system, or if you don't yet
have children in the system andyou're part of the just larger
(23:17):
English speaking community, Ifeel everybody has a
responsibility to be involved.
You know the schools arecommunity hubs that belong to us
.
Everybody should be involved,understand what exactly is
happening in education, becausethe decisions that are made that
affect our schools, that affectour, you know, our programs of
(23:42):
instruction are decisions thataffect you today and if they
don't affect you today, theycould affect you 10 years from
now.
So it's really important foreverybody to be informed and to
be involved and to understandexactly what our Section 23
rights are, how broadly they areto be applied, when they apply
(24:08):
and when they don't, and beready to.
Sometimes, when the governmentwants to let us know what they
want us to do, we have to letthem know what we're allowed to
do and let them know that we'reexercising those rights.
And more often than not thegovernment backs off without
requiring us to go to court.
(24:29):
So those are the wins that aremuch less costly but that happen
much more often.
But don't get talked about asmuch.
Chris Colley (24:38):
Yeah, totally, joe .
I just want to thank you somuch for coming on here and
making us all smarter about.
You know, our lovely community,I mean it's a close-knit
community, it's a strongcommunity.
It has a voice and we have tojust keep using it right, like
as you said, like if we don'tkeep talking about it and
(25:00):
pushing a little bit, they'llkindly take it, you know, like
it's something that you have tovoice and battle for a little
bit.
So I really appreciate thisknowledge that you shared with
us about how all of this isconnected together.
Really, I mean, it's all thisweb that's connected and it's
(25:23):
starting to make a lot moresense to me, anyway, thanks to
you.
So thanks so much, joe.
I appreciate it.
Joe Ortona (25:29):
Always happy to help and answer any questions, and
thanks for having me on again.
This was a lot of fun and I'dbe happy to come back anytime.
Chris Colley (25:38):
Amazing.
I will definitely reach backout to you, Joe, when, uh, some
wild things continue.
Joe Ortona (25:45):
You take care and have a great school year.
Thanks you too.
Thank you.
Welcome back to another episode, another school
season of Shifted Podcastpodcast.
We have a lifer Quebecer,montrealer, Joe Ortona from EMSB
, chair of the governing boardand also president of the Quebec
English School BoardAssociation and a real advocate
(00:36):
for Anglo services and educationwithin Quebec.
And I asked Joe to come on herebecause I know he dabbles a lot
with all of these bills andcharters and amendments that are
happening in our schoolspresently and I thought it would
be a good kind of refresher orso that we're all on the same
(00:58):
page and we start to understanda little bit better.
I think knowledge is power andJoe is going to share a lot of
that knowledge with us today.
So, joe, thanks so much forhopping on here today and taking
a bit of time to share some ofyour thoughts and ideas about
the English education system inQuebec.
Joe Ortona (01:17):
Well, thanks for having me on.
I'm really looking forward toit.
Chris Colley (01:21):
So, Joe, maybe just to kind of build a little
bit of foundation.
Like I mentioned, I mean yougrew up in the Montreal area.
You've been a part of Quebecfabric for your career and your
personal life as well.
How did you come into the rolesthat you're in now, as you know
(01:45):
, the president of the QuebecEnglish School Board Association
, also the chairman of the EMSBgoverning board.
How did those come to you?
Joe Ortona (01:54):
You know, to be honest, it actually first
started kind of by chance In2014,.
(02:23):
People were looking forcandidates, uh, uh, young
parents, young families thatwere moving in that area a
little closer to my age, and hewas really the first one who
approached me about it.
Uh, prior to that, I had nevergiven it, um, I had never given
it any thought, uh, to be honest, but, but it kind of intrigued
me.
And then, as I it at anythought, uh, to be honest, but
(02:46):
but it kind of intrigued me.
And then, as I, as I learnedabout it, um it, it was
something that was interestingto me.
And then I wound up saying, youknow, why not give it a shot,
just to try something new?
And it turned out.
I, I very much enjoyed it andI've never regretted it since.
And I, I went from being theschool commissioner to,
eventually, the chair of theEnglish Montreal School Board
(03:08):
and then, you know, eventuallypresident of the Quebec English
School Boards Association.
Chris Colley (03:15):
Amazing and, Joe, what's your drive behind English
education in Quebec?
In Quebec, like personally,like what, what, what gets you
going about that?
And and the passion that youhave for it, um is evident in in
our community.
Um, can you, can you explore alittle bit of that with us?
Joe Ortona (03:37):
Um sure, I mean.
I mean, my drive was, uh, assoon as I started to get
involved, I quickly saw that,you know, our, our cultural
identity is, is is reallyovershadowed by the French
speaking majority in Quebec andand our and our identity is, is
(03:59):
still important and and we stillcontribute greatly to Quebec
society.
You know, we, as an Englishspeaking community, we promote
bilingualism and we want tostrengthen Quebec society but
also recognize that Quebecsociety is diverse and we want
to build on that inclusivesociety and ensure that, you
(04:22):
know, the students that comethrough our system, you know,
have those opportunities wherethey can become, you know,
lifelong Quebecers and be ableto not only study here but be
able to work here and besuccessful and fully bilingual,
to be able to speak English andFrench proficiently, right right
(04:47):
, and are you seeing where, whenkids graduate in an English
school or in an English schoolboard, what's the likelihood of
them actually staying in Quebecversus going elsewhere?
Chris Colley (05:04):
And what are some of the things that we could do
in the educational system thatwould draw them, to make them
feel like to stay rather than todecide OK, I'm going to go to
another province or anothercountry because our graduation
rates are really great.
They're up there.
How do we keep those kids fromleaving and wanting to stay here
(05:27):
?
Joe Ortona (05:27):
Yeah, um that's a great question.
A lot of that, however, thatgoes to, the government of
Quebec as well.
I mean, our responsibility isit be able to educate children
who have opportunities all overthe world.
(05:47):
If that's possible, I thinkthat that's great.
What we don't want is peopleleaving because they don't have
any options here in Quebec.
That's really the concern.
(06:09):
The concern and what we do is,again, we ensure that we offer
strong bilingual education.
We have, you know, great Frenchprograms that make it such that
if anybody wants to stay inQuebec, they can.
They can do theirpost-secondary studies in Quebec
(06:32):
and work in French and be verysuccessful.
The government has to do itspart, however, in ensuring that
English-speaking Quebecers feelwelcome and feel included in
Quebec society.
When the government talks aboutQuebec in general, that's not
(06:57):
always the case, depending onwhich government is there, but
we certainly want to make surethat getting an English
education in an English schoolwith a strong French program
doesn't limit any opportunitiesand, in fact, opens as many
doors as possible.
Chris Colley (07:15):
Absolutely, and we've kind of been seeing in the
news as of late some of thatstruggle, right that's coming in
and kind of the over.
I read somewhere where this newBill 96, and correct me if I'm
wrong is kind of this extrablanket over Bill 101 that came
out in the 70s, right, likethere's this more reinforcement
(07:39):
almost of this protecting, and Iunderstand that and I
appreciate that the anglophonecommunity, I'm saying, in a
difficult position at times whenit seems like it's one way that
the government's trying to withtheir laws and their amendments
(08:00):
and stuff.
Could you kind of walk usthrough a little bit of Bill 96,
which, from what I know, is nowa law that's being contested?
Can you like walk us throughbaby steps through that, so that
our listeners kind of get abetter idea, um, and more versed
a little bit in therepercussions of such, um, you
(08:24):
know, a bill?
Joe Ortona (08:25):
Yeah, so there's, there's a lot in bill 96.
It'd be really difficult tocover it in a couple of
sentences, but essentially, youknow, bill 96 doesn't actually
do anything to protect orpromote the French language and
(08:46):
that's really the main objectionwe've had about it from day one
.
It should be what everybodyobjects to because, uh, when we
talk about what the mainobjective?
To dissuade people from usingEnglish, to punish people, to
(09:19):
bar them from, you know, beingable to go to English CGEP, and
that's really where we takeexception.
Bill 96 requires English schoolboards, for example, to have to
communicate um in French,including internally, when we're
(09:40):
writing, you know sendingemails to each other, uh,
elected officials to electedofficials, or administrators to
uh, uh to to their staff.
I mean that that's, I meananybody I speak to.
When I mentioned that justtells me that that's absurd.
Of course there's stricterrequirements in order to get
(10:05):
into English CEGEP.
There's they've added threecore French classes for students
in English CEGEPS.
They've set up enrollment capsfor English CEGEPS so that, you
know, basically is limitingeducational pathways and choices
that students have.
(10:25):
So there's all of those thingsin which we take exception and,
of course, something that we'vebeen saying for years on bill 96
and bill 21 and bill 40, whichis, you know, english school
boards are constitutionallyprotected that the government
cannot tell us, uh, how weoperate, they cannot tell us how
(10:46):
to manage, uh and control ourschool system and, um, tell us
the language that we're supposedto communicate in, when,
specifically, language is thenumber one thing that is
protected for a minoritylanguage school board.
You know, then the governmentleaves us very little choice but
(11:08):
to have to go to court toassert our rights, which is
essentially what we did.
Chris Colley (11:14):
Right, and you mentioning that too, like I know
that the French system turnedinto Centre de Service a couple
of years ago and we're stillrecognized as school boards on
the English in the Englishsystem of education.
Where is that at right now?
Is that still in court?
(11:37):
And and and going through youknow, the cogs of of legal um
processes and like what's thehope of that?
Like what's the hope of will webe able to maintain english
school boards?
And, and you know, avoid this,the shifting where the
government seems to be much morein control of who is going to
be in those schools, runningthem, as opposed to the
community bringing, you know,electing the people that they
(11:58):
want to see in those schoolboards.
Joe Ortona (12:01):
So so there's a there.
There's two parts to thatanswer.
Um, you know where where we are, um, legally uh, and and.
Um, legally uh, and and.
And.
Then where where we are inpractice.
So, legally, we're in a verygood place.
(12:23):
As soon as the government passedbill 40, which was their bill
to abolish school boards, andessentially did abolish all of
the uh school boards on theFrench side and replaced them
with a very undemocratic andbureaucratic school service
center model, we were able to goto court and we successfully
obtained a stay, which is likean injunction.
(12:44):
It essentially means that theapplication of the law is
suspended, and it was suspendedfor English language school
boards.
That was the case since 2020.
And the government appealedthat stay and the court of
appeal upheld the stay.
And that's really remarkablebecause stays are very difficult
(13:06):
to obtain.
The threshold is very high.
You have to demonstrate thatyou would suffer, and you have
to prove it that you wouldsuffer, as a community, an
irreparable harm from the billcoming into effect and that that
harm is immediate and virtuallyirreversible.
(13:27):
And we were able to meet thatthreshold, which is already rare
in and of itself, but manytimes when stays like that are
granted, they're usuallyoverturned on appeal.
And the reason why I say thatis because there is a general
principle that governments passlaws to meet certain objectives.
(13:49):
There are, they have, they getto set their own priorities and
there's always that presumptionthat when the government does
pass a bill that it isconstitutional, so the onus is
on the person who's contesting.
The fact that we were able toget the stay maintained on
(14:11):
appeal is something that hashappened only a handful of times
in all of Canadian history.
So that gives you an idea howextremely rare getting a stay
and having it upheld on appealis.
And then we got the judgment onthe merits a few years later,
which again the governmentappealed and which the
government lost on appeal.
(14:32):
So they lost four times in arow on Bill 40.
Now they've asked the SupremeCourt of Canada for permission
to appeal.
We have not yet heard if theSupreme Court will allow the
appeal to happen.
They may, they may not,obviously.
If they don't, then that willbe the end of the legal avenues
(14:54):
and we're going to be able tocontinue to operate as school
boards in theory.
In practice regard, even if thecourts side with us.
You know we always have to makesure that we remain vigilant
and that the government willalways try to claw back powers
and try to impose their will.
(15:14):
And we have to make sure thatwe remain vigilant and we have
to be diligent and make surethat when they do try to claw
back, that we push back and thatwe preserve the rights that are
constitutionally guaranteed tous.
Chris Colley (15:29):
Right and do you see a future where these ongoing
battles might eventually besettled?
And like, I guess my questionis what would be an ideal future
for Anglo education If these,you know, all these bills get
settled?
And like, what's the visionthat you hope to see down the
(15:54):
road for Anglo service?
English educational services?
Joe Ortona (16:00):
Yeah, that's a really great question.
I mean, the the only thing thatwe could hope for and what we
should be striving for is, uh,for the government of quebec who
you know, whichever party it isthat's in power uh, but that
the government of quebec finallygets it and understands that,
when it comes to minoritylanguage public education, that
(16:24):
they do not have the exclusiveauthority to be able to just
impose whatever it is they want,you know, without any, without
any limitations.
Everybody remembers theirhistory class and remembers the
division of powers at the timeof Confederation, and section 22
(16:47):
, sorry, section 92 includededucation and it being of
exclusive provincialjurisdiction.
However, we now, since then,have a Canadian Charter of
Rights and freedoms.
We've had it since 1982.
And, essentially what section 23does is, um, most of them, you
(17:09):
know, french language education,private education, cgeps.
But when it comes to Englishlanguage public education,
(17:32):
there's a shared jurisdictionbetween the province and the
English-speaking community, andwhat that means is that the
government of Quebec gets todecide some things, the
English-speaking community getsto decide some things,
especially when it comes tothings that touch upon language
and culture, and there's ashared jurisdiction, and so the
(17:52):
government has to recognize thatwe are a partner when it comes
to public education.
I mean, that's the ideal, andas long as the government
doesn't get that, it'sunfortunate.
But we're going to findourselves in court more often
than not, and when thegovernment doesn't respect the
decisions that are decided byQuebec judges, then we have no
(18:14):
choice but to do what we did inthe latest court challenge on
the budget cuts, which is to say, the courts have already
decided this and the governmentis disregarding the law and the
constitution, and now we'reseeking punitive damages.
Chris Colley (18:29):
Wow, wow, yeah, I mean I was going to talk about
that too.
Those challenges of I mean,what is it $570 million cut in
education?
I mean, what is it A $570million cut in education?
I mean it seems like and I'mstarting to see the ground, you
know, on the ground level of youknow no opportunities for
(18:49):
professional development, youknow less teachers Like, the
repercussions are going to befelt big time, particularly for
us who are consultants and we doworkshops and support teachers
and kids in their learning.
It puts us in a very difficultposition to how do we offer
these services that we have forour community?
What is the hope of thislawsuit against this massive
(19:17):
that that we're going toexperience this year?
Joe Ortona (19:21):
Well, the, the I mean the hope of the lawsuit if
I can sum it up in one sentenceis is to stop these cuts from
actually occurring.
That's one of the things we'reseeking.
We're seeking a stay now on, uh,on the budgetary measures that
the government wants to imposeon us.
So you know they want us to meetcertain caps when it comes to
(19:47):
employees and you know they wantto bar us from being able to
use our accumulated surplus,which is money that we've saved
over the years through, you know, fiscal, fiscally responsible
management and control, um andand.
So what we're saying is youcan't do this, and that's why
(20:09):
we're going to court, because,everybody understands, uh, from
the elected school commissionersto all of the staff, all of the
pedagogues and the parents.
We all understand that if wehad to meet the targets that the
government was asking to meetand and cutting what they were
(20:29):
asking us to cut, and adopt agreatly reduced budget, we would
have to slash services thatwould have a detrimental impact
on the quality of education thatthe children receive, and a lot
of services would be greatlyreduced and some would be
eliminated.
(20:50):
So it's very, very concerning.
You know, all of this will mostlikely be decided within the
next month, because the courtsunderstand that we do have to
adopt the budget very soon.
So they're going to make everyeffort to ensure that that's
heard and decided very quickly.
Chris Colley (21:12):
Interesting.
What can we do as an Anglophonecommunity to support one
another more on these kind of Idon't want to say infringement,
but it rights as Anglo citizensin Quebec and the rights that we
have from the Charter?
Joe Ortona (21:27):
Yeah, Well, I know, with the number of pending court
(21:53):
cases that we have, it's easyto get the impression that we're
running to the courts.
That's not the case.
You know, we go to court as alast resort and oftentimes we
find ourselves in a situationwhere, when we actually push
(22:13):
back and we tell the government,you know we are not going to do
this, and we tell thegovernment, you know we are not
going to do this that theyactually don't react at all.
And so the message that Ialways keep reminding my
colleagues is they know we havethese rights.
They're counting on us eitherfeeling intimidated from
(22:34):
asserting our rights or they'recounting on us not understanding
our rights or necessarily whenthey apply.
So we shouldn't feel afraid topush back when we know that
we're right and when we knowthat we're exercising our rights
and powers that we have andpowers that we have.
(22:57):
So you know everybody in theEnglish speaking community,
whether you're your parents ofchildren currently in the system
, or your children went throughthe system, or or you're you're
now grandparents of children inthe system, or if you don't yet
have children in the system andyou're part of the just larger
(23:17):
English speaking community, Ifeel everybody has a
responsibility to be involved.
You know the schools arecommunity hubs that belong to us
.
Everybody should be involved,understand what exactly is
happening in education, becausethe decisions that are made that
affect our schools, that affectour, you know, our programs of
(23:42):
instruction are decisions thataffect you today and if they
don't affect you today, theycould affect you 10 years from
now.
So it's really important foreverybody to be informed and to
be involved and to understandexactly what our Section 23
rights are, how broadly they areto be applied, when they apply
(24:08):
and when they don't, and beready to.
Sometimes, when the governmentwants to let us know what they
want us to do, we have to letthem know what we're allowed to
do and let them know that we'reexercising those rights.
And more often than not thegovernment backs off without
requiring us to go to court.
(24:29):
So those are the wins that aremuch less costly but that happen
much more often.
But don't get talked about asmuch.
Chris Colley (24:38):
Yeah, totally, joe .
I just want to thank you somuch for coming on here and
making us all smarter about.
You know, our lovely community,I mean it's a close-knit
community, it's a strongcommunity.
It has a voice and we have tojust keep using it right, like
as you said, like if we don'tkeep talking about it and
(25:00):
pushing a little bit, they'llkindly take it, you know, like
it's something that you have tovoice and battle for a little
bit.
So I really appreciate thisknowledge that you shared with
us about how all of this isconnected together.
Really, I mean, it's all thisweb that's connected and it's
(25:23):
starting to make a lot moresense to me, anyway, thanks to
you.
So thanks so much, joe.
I appreciate it.
Joe Ortona (25:29):
Always happy to help and answer any questions, and
thanks for having me on again.
This was a lot of fun and I'dbe happy to come back anytime.
Chris Colley (25:38):
Amazing.
I will definitely reach backout to you, Joe, when, uh, some
wild things continue.
Joe Ortona (25:45):
You take care and have a great school year.
Thanks you too.
Thank you.
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