September 16, 2025 • 21 mins
What if creating truly inclusive classrooms wasn't about mastering every student's culture, but about designing learning environments where everyone belongs? Dr. Burke offers a refreshing perspective on how Universal Design for Learning (UDL) and equity work combine to transform education for all students.
Drawing from her personal journey that began as a middle school student in a Massachusetts busing program, Dr. Burke shares how early experiences navigating cultural differences sparked her lifelong commitment to educational equity. Her approach is refreshingly practical—likening DEI work to hiding vegetables in a child's lasagna: "I don't need it to be called DEI, but I still need us to make sure we all have a sense of belonging."
The conversation explores the natural partnership between UDL and culturally responsive teaching, describing them as "peanut butter and jelly" that complement each other perfectly. While UDL provides the framework for designing flexible learning pathways, culturally responsive teaching explains why those pathways matter: to honor students' identities and lived experiences. As Dr. Burke eloquently puts it, "Equity isn't an add-on to UDL, it's baked in when we design with identity and access in mind."
For educators feeling overwhelmed by the prospect of cultural competency, Dr. Burke offers liberating advice: let go of the guilt that you must know everything about every culture. Instead, wear your heart on your sleeve and be comfortable saying, "I don't know, tell me." This vulnerability creates space for students to co-create their own sense of belonging.
The discussion tackles real barriers to implementation—mindset shifts, compliance culture, and initiative fatigue—while offering practical ways to measure success beyond standardized test scores. Looking at "street data" like attendance, discipline referrals, and classroom participation provides immediate feedback on whether students are developing a sense of belonging.
As education continues to evolve through technological advances and post-pandemic realities, Dr. Burke reminds us to stay grounded in principles rather than specific tools: "Fidelity doesn't mean uniformity. Fidelity is the commitment to access, engagement, and expression." By building practices that are flexible and human-centered, we create learning environments that can meet students where they are, no matter what changes come our way.
Start this school year with a renewed commitment to creating classrooms where every student belongs and has pathways to succeed. Your mindset matters more than any specific method.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Colley (00:13):
Well, welcome everyone.
Yeah, we're shit that podcasthere coming to you, beautiful,
almost fall day coming to us,and I have Dr Burke with us here
and she is a part of the UDLKatie Novak, but she also has
her own consulting firm, drBurke Consulting, and she's so
amazing on this UDL equity,inclusion and belonging that I
(00:37):
just had to have her come in atthe start of this new school
year, just so our lovelyteachers out there have this in
their minds as they're preparingand creating these
relationships with students andtheir new colleagues they might
have, so that everybody kind ofgets off on the same foot.
So, dr Burke, thank you so muchfor taking a little bit of time
out of your day to come sharesome of your ideas with us.
Dr. Burke (01:00):
Yes, thank you for having me.
I'm super excited and I lovewhat you said.
Perfect timing right.
While everyone's stillinvigorated and excited to get
their school year started.
Hopefully, some of these thingswill plant some seeds that will
help them grow throughout theyear.
Chris Colley (01:13):
Love it.
I know it will.
We're here to get smarter and Iknow that you're going to do
that through our time togetherhere today.
Together here today.
So I guess I would like tostart Dr Burke about how did you
get to where you are?
How did equity, inclusion andbelonging and UDL, how did you
get into that lane in educationand the work that you do now?
Dr. Burke (01:40):
So it actually started for myself.
As a middle school student Iwas in a busing program we
called it Mecco in Massachusettswhere I was taken on raising
the projects.
But I was taking a bus into thesuburban school districts and
from that very early start Iremember just thinking like,
even though I don't look likethese people, there's got to be
some common ground of how we canall be together successfully
(02:04):
and have this effective culturalbinding.
And so from there I had this.
There's just this thing thatlaid in the bottom of my soul.
I honestly couldn't name it.
I was too young, I didn't knowwhat it was.
But when I decided to become aneducator, then I read the book
Other People's Children, LisaDelpit.
Just something clicked for mein that.
This is what I was thinking allthis time is like you don't
(02:25):
have to share a culture to beable to be culturally competent
with other people.
And so that was kind of the nestegg for me where I wanted to
really focus on this idea ofdiversity, equity, inclusion and
belonging.
That's really important, thatwe have a sense of belonging.
And then I was passionate aboutDEI for a long time.
And then it's actually in thecurrent climate within the last
(02:45):
five years or so, where DEI hasbeen under attack a little bit.
I started adopting this mindsetwhere I think of it, because I'm
a mother of a teenage boy who Istruggled to get him to eat his
vegetables all the time.
But I always think of you knowwhat, when I slide them in the
lasagna or on the pizza.
I don't care that he doesn'trealize it, like he's still
(03:06):
eating his vegetables.
And that's how I felt about DEIis like I don't really need the
titles, I don't need it to becalled DEI, but I still need us
to do this work of making surethat we all have a sense of
belonging and we're all treatingeach other equally.
And that's when I, the UDL lens, feels like that to me, right,
so it might come under adifferent guise, but if you're
still eating your vegetables,you are still making sure access
(03:27):
for all and that everyone hasthis sense of belonging and has
their potential to be their bestselves.
Chris Colley (03:32):
So for me it was a nice marriage of the DEI work
and the UDL work, which is allin essence of the same goals,
totally totally, and I mean inthat spirit, starting this new
school year, I often talk toteachers about the foundation of
relationship building as yourfirst homework.
You know, you gotta, you gottagrab the kids, you've got to
(03:55):
engage with them, you've got toshow that they belong right.
So, important, important, howdo you go about those beginning?
Because, I mean, universaldesign for learning is all about
, you know, widening theclassroom wall so that everyone
feels included.
Now we can say this I mean andit sounds super idealistic how
(04:18):
do you, what are some concretesteps that you can maybe throw
out there for us, about theconcreteness of what you can do
right today in your class, toget students to start to feel
that sense that they belongthere?
Dr. Burke (04:33):
The first piece of advice I've always given for
years.
When I first started this DEIwork because I know myself I
felt inundated with this ideathat it meant I had to learn
every culture of every scholar Iever came across, and that's a
big ask and that's doing a lotright.
So I think the first thing wedo that's concrete is let go of
that guilt of feeling like it'sthis responsibility, that
(04:54):
someone's asking you to becomean expert in every child's
culture.
What the real thing you can dois and of course, there are some
concrete inventories of whatyour kids like but it's really
about just being okay withwearing your heart on your
sleeve and saying I don't know,tell me, and letting them have
this place where they canco-create their own sense of
belonging by you saying you,tell me, what makes you feel
(05:17):
good, how do you want to beapproached, how do you, what do
you want to be referred to, whatname do you go by?
It's just that sense of like Idon't know it all, but I'm so
happy to learn and find out andallow it.
Sometimes teachers feel likethey wear this cape of like I
have to come in having theanswers and know it all.
So I got to be prepared.
That's a huge burden.
That is way too much for anyone person.
(05:38):
Just be okay saying I don'tknow, I've never heard of that
before.
Could you tell me a little bitmore about that?
I think that's really the firstconcrete stuff right, right, I
love that.
Chris Colley (05:47):
I love that and in a sense too, like I agree with
you that teachers I was ateacher for many, many years and
you just always feel like youhave to have the answer right
and if you don't have the answer, oh my goodness, like we've
created this kind of false ideaof what a teacher should and
shouldn't be.
So I guess my next, like youdid a ton of research around
(06:10):
this cultural thing competencythat you had framed it and how
it intersects with the UDLapproach Could you expand on
that?
A?
Dr. Burke (06:20):
bit for us, dr Burke.
Yeah, so I look at UDL as theframework for how to design
flexible pathways and culturallyresponsive teaching.
Is this idea of why thosepathways are important to honor
identity, the lived experiencesof our scholars, right?
So like, for example, in UDL,we say multiple means of
(06:42):
engagement, that's all aboutrecruiting interest and building
a sense of purpose, and it'snot just choice for the sake of
choice, like oh, I want to givekids the option to do things,
but it's the opportunity toactually to connect with their
lives, their lived experiences,their culture, their interests.
Because equity isn't this addon to UDL, it's baked in when we
(07:04):
design identity and access inmind.
It's like kids don't just needaccess to learning, they need to
see themselves in it.
So them as a nice marriage,like the peanut butter and jelly
.
They go so well together.
Like you need to know the whyand then the how.
Chris Colley (07:20):
I love that Great analogy too, dr Burke.
That's amazing.
And what are you finding someof those biggest barriers in
this regard?
Like I know, it's not easy,right, like our words seem like,
oh, you just snap your fingersand no, no, no.
This takes a lot of work andplanning.
And how do you get around thosestructures and barriers of
(07:45):
standard education so that everystudent has that feeling?
Dr. Burke (07:50):
Yeah, I love that you said this seems so easy, right,
because we all think that, likeit comes in a spray bottle and
if you spray it it's a meaninglike, oh, like, now'm aware I've
got a little training, I wentto a PD like, really, but really
the part is that we have to.
It's a paradigm shift fromfixing the scholar to fixing the
environment, right.
(08:10):
And so the barriers of that arethe mindset, because shifting
mindset is a lot of work forsome people.
And then I would say anotherbarrier is the weight of
compliance, right, like I hearso many teachers say, how am I
supposed to do this when,ultimately, I'm expected to
teach to these standardizedtests and fit this much
curriculum and I have to get tothese standards?
(08:31):
So this idea of complianceweighs heavy on educators and so
they feel like they can't doUDL.
And then another big barrier isinitiative fatigue, because,
let's be honest, we are in thewave of like there have been so
many things that come and go ineducation, of like this is the
next big it right, name theacronym, fill in the blank, like
(08:53):
ooh, this is what we're alldoing, we're all buying into it,
and then 10 years later it's nolonger the thing.
Chris Colley (08:58):
And then a new spray bottle, as you say Exactly
.
Dr. Burke (09:02):
And neuroscience is telling us that, while UDL is
based on neuroscience and weknow that this thing is going to
stick, unfortunately it'sdebunking things that we also
thought were sticking.
There are tons of educationalframeworks and theories that
neuroscience is debunking andsaying like that's actually not
true, like we don't have onetype of intelligence you know,
(09:23):
as an example of one of thethings we need to debunk.
So people get fatigued with likethinking, like oh, I'm really
bought into this, this is whatI'm going to do, I'm investing
the time, the resources, theeffort and now you're telling me
this isn't the thing.
So it's really hard to getpeople to buy in and shift that
mindset when they have this PTSDof like, how long is this going
(09:45):
to last?
Like when is this going to be?
The old thing too, and I canask me to adopt.
So getting people to get overthat PTSD of the fatigue, of the
new initiatives and helpingthem adopt the mindset.
And so what I do when I workwith teachers is I really talk a
lot about the neuroscience sothat they can see that this is
more than theory, it's more thanresearch, it's more than just
(10:06):
evidence-based practices, butit's actual science of how the
brain acquires information andhow it doesn't right.
And when we know those things,how do we respond to that?
Chris Colley (10:23):
And that's what the framework of UDL is asking
us to do is to respond to thisnew knowledge we have of how the
brain acquires knowledge.
Right, I love that and I mean Itotally agree with you that we
always are looking for the newflavor of the month.
Or you know how can werevolutionize our schools month.
Or you know how can werevolutionize our schools?
The change behind it oftentimesisn't there.
And then another you know newspray bottle comes out the next
year.
Yeah, how do you go aboutevaluating if it's having an
(10:48):
effect or not?
So I bring these.
You know, okay, we're doing UDLthis year for the next four or
five years.
How do they know if it isworking or not?
Like are there?
Are there signs that you willsee in a building, amongst you
know, the peers, the colleagues,that there is this idea that's
starting to change the mindsetsbehind how they're behaving with
(11:11):
each other and their students?
Dr. Burke (11:13):
Yes, absolutely.
The first thing I would say iswe have to stop using the
summative standardized data asour North Star, that's, you know
.
And so if we, if we're onlyusing that as the North Star,
then it is going to be a longhaul before we see that change
immediately, and so we have tobe okay with using some of what
I like to refer to.
I don't know if you're familiarwith the text street data,
(11:36):
which really looks at some ofthose really informal touch
points that those things aregoing to change and happen way
more quickly than the summativestandardized data.
So, if we're okay with lookingat attendance data, are kids
coming to school more oftenbecause they have a sense of
belonging?
Are there less referrals fordiscipline because kids are able
to stay in the class and be apart and acclimate and not be
(11:57):
sent out for discipline issues?
Are they participating in moreschool-based activities, school
spirit, even the anecdotalthings that teachers can see on
a regular basis, like wow, thischild is actually raising their
hand and participating more thanthey had been.
Right, it's that small streetdata that is going to have the
impact and that tells us thatnow we're on the right track and
(12:21):
now we can start lookingforward to seeing some of the
summative data change, but thatshould never be the North Star
of like.
That's the end goal, right?
Because really our North Staris making sure that we are
creating human beings who can beindependent learners and
navigate the world to the bestof their potential.
It's not whether we can performon a standardized test.
(12:41):
So if we unpack what our endgoal is and then look for some
of those touch points along theway like I mentioned attendance,
referrals and all of that thenwe'll start to be able to
measure the impact that UDL hashad on our instruction.
Chris Colley (13:02):
I love those like concrete examples you're giving
Dr Burke like, because it ishard to measure.
You know something that'shappening within.
You know a large organizationto pinpoint it to say, oh yeah,
kids are attending school more.
You know there's lessabsenteeism, there's more
collegial collaboration going on, like all of these you hope,
things that are always happening, but being able to put your
(13:22):
finger on it and say, throughthe work we've done, look what
what's happening, you know,which is pretty remarkable.
I have a little game I want toplay with you Now.
I went on the Novak educationsite and there's such a plethora
of quotes.
Dr. Burke (13:38):
Yes, dr Novak, yes.
Chris Colley (13:42):
But sometimes they need a little bit more meat on
the bone.
Dr. Burke (13:44):
Okay.
Chris Colley (13:46):
I'm going to throw you a quote, and I'd love it if
you could expand on that alittle bit, because I think
they're very insightful.
I love it, but a few more wordsso here's the first one,
insightful, I love it.
But a few more words.
So here's the first one.
There are no labels in UDL.
There are only fabulous,amazing students with different
levels of variability.
Dr. Burke (14:04):
Got it.
Yes, that comes from becausethink about the amount of labels
that we put on kids right fromthe time, and not just the
formal ones, like, obviously, ifthey come in with an IEP or a
504, that's a huge label thatfollows them around.
But even within that, we breakdown and we see that if kids
have traditionally struggled inmath or reading, then we call
them our struggling students andwe say, like they are low end
(14:27):
or they have, you know,difficulties accessing this.
And so what?
We in the UDL mindset we say oh, no, no, in that particular
area, in that one standard, thischild may not have yet shown
proficiency, but that does notmean that they struggle with
math.
Right, math, like these bigconcepts, like we're talking the
(14:47):
entire content.
But that happens a lot.
I know I'm guilty of it myself,as a first few years in my
teaching career too, is Ilabeled kids as like oh, these
are some of my lower readers, soI have to put them in certain
groups and provide certainscaffolds and supports
automatically, before even likereally digging in to see what
were their strengths.
(15:07):
And so that's really what wemean by.
That is where we assume thateveryone has some strengths and
just because they're not yetshown proficiency yet.
Right, because creating theright environment and removing
the barriers allows kids todemonstrate proficiency.
But unfortunately, because thebarriers in the environment has
not been conducive, they havenot had the platform to yet
(15:29):
demonstrate proficiency.
Chris Colley (15:31):
I love the power of.
Yet I always tell my teachersuse that word more and more and
more.
Yeah, and I'm a firm believerin that one.
If you change that one wording,how you talk with colleagues,
how you talk with peers you knowyour students, peers it's going
to bound to do something.
(15:52):
Thanks for bringing that upbecause that is such a huge word
.
All right, that up because thatis such a huge word.
All right.
All the UDL guidelines in theworld won't transform practice
if there aren't in service ofthe belief that all students can
learn.
Oh yeah, that's a beauty.
Dr. Burke (16:09):
That's with anything right.
Where you have people who sayI'm doing this with fidelity,
and to them their interpretationof fidelity is I've opened the
textbook, I've read the teachermanual and I'm going through it
just as I've demonstrated to youso far then those guidelines
are not going to make any changein your classroom.
It starts with having thebelief that everyone can and
(16:54):
will learn under the rightconditions, because once you
believe it, then you holdyourself accountable for
creating those conditions.
Chris Colley (17:02):
Great, that's so well said and I totally see that
too.
I mean, it's such a it's apowerful quote.
It's a simple quote, but itsays you must start to change
your mindset and that we havegrowth mindsets.
It's not fixed, we're not bornwith this one thought in our
head and that we have growthmindsets it's not fixed.
We're not born with this onethought in our head and that's
the way it is.
Sorry, no, don't change here,like this growth mindset that's
(17:25):
often talked about.
I think that's the epitome of itthat Katie Nowak was talking
about in that quote that she hadsaid, which I love.
Now to kind of bring things toa close and I know this is a big
thing to bring things to aclose on, but we're living in
changing times, dr Burke.
We're living in dramaticallychanging times and what happened
(17:47):
five years ago with our cultureand societies is transforming
again, you know, with theintroduction of AI and
post-COVID, still kind of likethere with us.
Yeah, what are your words thatyou can share with us about how
to stay resilient when it seemslike there is constant change
(18:11):
going on and adaptation, andwhat can we hold on to that is
steady?
Dr. Burke (18:18):
yeah, I love that.
It is a good way to end because, being in the history that we
have of things changing, I thinkpeople just assume that there's
still more to come right, likewe're only at one of the lulls
in this, but then it comes backaround and it'll keep being
cyclical.
So some people have thementality of I'll just wait for
this to go away too and change.
(18:39):
Others are just holding on fordear life like I hope it doesn't
change again.
I can't take any more.
So I'll say, through all ofthat is we have to stay grounded
in the why right and hold tightto the principles of UDL, not
necessarily the specific toolsof it, because that's the piece
that could change and I leavethat open like that absolutely
(19:00):
could.
Like thinking about what youjust said, that example of COVID
right During the pandemic, somany teachers panicked because
some of their tried and true,their favorite strategies didn't
translate to Zoom right and sothey just didn't know how to
change that.
But having the UDL mindset, notthis tool right, says you're
asking yourself constantly thequestion what's the goal?
(19:22):
What are the flexible pathways?
Right, so you can't conductyour beloved, like your Socratic
seminar that you've done inperson and you just love it.
But during the pandemic maybeyou shifted to the flip grid
discussions, right, so that's adifferent tool, but it's the
same principle of multiple meansof engagement.
So if you're speaking to thatwhy and not necessarily always
(19:43):
the how, because that coulddefinitely be flexible If we
went into another pandemic whatare multiple ways to allow them
to access and then todemonstrate their learning?
Those grounded whys should neverchange.
(20:03):
That should always be the NorthStar.
But I would also just suggestthat that's like for teachers
more so, but I was like messagesfor leaders as well, too,
because leaders have to resistthe urge to standardize
everything.
Right, I get it, I was adistrict leader for so long.
It's like we want consistency,we need to make sure, but then
we're also saying that we wantour teachers to get to know kids
(20:27):
and, like, make them have thesense of belonging.
You can't have it both ways.
You can't say that it's goingto be a rigid, standardized,
where everyone gets the samepackage.
But get to know your kids andmake sure you're meeting their
needs, right, like so we have tobe more flexible in this idea,
because fidelity doesn't meanuniformity.
Fidelity is the commitment toaccess engagement and expression
(20:48):
.
Right, our scholars rely on usto design spaces where
learning's possible for everyone, even when the ground is
shifting underneath us.
Right?
So the goal is to build apractice that's so flexible and
so human-centered that, nomatter what the world throws at
us, we're always ready to meetour scholars where they are.
Chris Colley (21:09):
Wow, dr Birkwald, thank you.
I mean this is 25 minutes, itgoes by like the wind, but I
think all those seeds that youthrew out there, I mean they're
going to take root.
They're already taking root.
I think a lot of what you saidto reinforces the kinds of
things we feel.
But you know, sometimesstructures and the outside gets
(21:33):
in the way of our beliefs andwhat we know is right for our
kids.
So I thank you so much forthrowing those out there and I
know my listeners are going toappreciate this as a as a
refresher and a stimulatingconversation to kind of get the
year going.
So I really appreciate yourtime and thank you so much for
joining me.
Dr. Burke (21:53):
Thank you, I appreciate you having me so much
.
Well, welcome everyone.
Yeah, we're shit that podcasthere coming to you, beautiful,
almost fall day coming to us,and I have Dr Burke with us here
and she is a part of the UDLKatie Novak, but she also has
her own consulting firm, drBurke Consulting, and she's so
amazing on this UDL equity,inclusion and belonging that I
(00:37):
just had to have her come in atthe start of this new school
year, just so our lovelyteachers out there have this in
their minds as they're preparingand creating these
relationships with students andtheir new colleagues they might
have, so that everybody kind ofgets off on the same foot.
So, dr Burke, thank you so muchfor taking a little bit of time
out of your day to come sharesome of your ideas with us.
Dr. Burke (01:00):
Yes, thank you for having me.
I'm super excited and I lovewhat you said.
Perfect timing right.
While everyone's stillinvigorated and excited to get
their school year started.
Hopefully, some of these thingswill plant some seeds that will
help them grow throughout theyear.
Chris Colley (01:13):
Love it.
I know it will.
We're here to get smarter and Iknow that you're going to do
that through our time togetherhere today.
Together here today.
So I guess I would like tostart Dr Burke about how did you
get to where you are?
How did equity, inclusion andbelonging and UDL, how did you
get into that lane in educationand the work that you do now?
Dr. Burke (01:40):
So it actually started for myself.
As a middle school student Iwas in a busing program we
called it Mecco in Massachusettswhere I was taken on raising
the projects.
But I was taking a bus into thesuburban school districts and
from that very early start Iremember just thinking like,
even though I don't look likethese people, there's got to be
some common ground of how we canall be together successfully
(02:04):
and have this effective culturalbinding.
And so from there I had this.
There's just this thing thatlaid in the bottom of my soul.
I honestly couldn't name it.
I was too young, I didn't knowwhat it was.
But when I decided to become aneducator, then I read the book
Other People's Children, LisaDelpit.
Just something clicked for mein that.
This is what I was thinking allthis time is like you don't
(02:25):
have to share a culture to beable to be culturally competent
with other people.
And so that was kind of the nestegg for me where I wanted to
really focus on this idea ofdiversity, equity, inclusion and
belonging.
That's really important, thatwe have a sense of belonging.
And then I was passionate aboutDEI for a long time.
And then it's actually in thecurrent climate within the last
(02:45):
five years or so, where DEI hasbeen under attack a little bit.
I started adopting this mindsetwhere I think of it, because I'm
a mother of a teenage boy who Istruggled to get him to eat his
vegetables all the time.
But I always think of you knowwhat, when I slide them in the
lasagna or on the pizza.
I don't care that he doesn'trealize it, like he's still
(03:06):
eating his vegetables.
And that's how I felt about DEIis like I don't really need the
titles, I don't need it to becalled DEI, but I still need us
to do this work of making surethat we all have a sense of
belonging and we're all treatingeach other equally.
And that's when I, the UDL lens, feels like that to me, right,
so it might come under adifferent guise, but if you're
still eating your vegetables,you are still making sure access
(03:27):
for all and that everyone hasthis sense of belonging and has
their potential to be their bestselves.
Chris Colley (03:32):
So for me it was a nice marriage of the DEI work
and the UDL work, which is allin essence of the same goals,
totally totally, and I mean inthat spirit, starting this new
school year, I often talk toteachers about the foundation of
relationship building as yourfirst homework.
You know, you gotta, you gottagrab the kids, you've got to
(03:55):
engage with them, you've got toshow that they belong right.
So, important, important, howdo you go about those beginning?
Because, I mean, universaldesign for learning is all about
, you know, widening theclassroom wall so that everyone
feels included.
Now we can say this I mean andit sounds super idealistic how
(04:18):
do you, what are some concretesteps that you can maybe throw
out there for us, about theconcreteness of what you can do
right today in your class, toget students to start to feel
that sense that they belongthere?
Dr. Burke (04:33):
The first piece of advice I've always given for
years.
When I first started this DEIwork because I know myself I
felt inundated with this ideathat it meant I had to learn
every culture of every scholar Iever came across, and that's a
big ask and that's doing a lotright.
So I think the first thing wedo that's concrete is let go of
that guilt of feeling like it'sthis responsibility, that
(04:54):
someone's asking you to becomean expert in every child's
culture.
What the real thing you can dois and of course, there are some
concrete inventories of whatyour kids like but it's really
about just being okay withwearing your heart on your
sleeve and saying I don't know,tell me, and letting them have
this place where they canco-create their own sense of
belonging by you saying you,tell me, what makes you feel
(05:17):
good, how do you want to beapproached, how do you, what do
you want to be referred to, whatname do you go by?
It's just that sense of like Idon't know it all, but I'm so
happy to learn and find out andallow it.
Sometimes teachers feel likethey wear this cape of like I
have to come in having theanswers and know it all.
So I got to be prepared.
That's a huge burden.
That is way too much for anyone person.
(05:38):
Just be okay saying I don'tknow, I've never heard of that
before.
Could you tell me a little bitmore about that?
I think that's really the firstconcrete stuff right, right, I
love that.
Chris Colley (05:47):
I love that and in a sense too, like I agree with
you that teachers I was ateacher for many, many years and
you just always feel like youhave to have the answer right
and if you don't have the answer, oh my goodness, like we've
created this kind of false ideaof what a teacher should and
shouldn't be.
So I guess my next, like youdid a ton of research around
(06:10):
this cultural thing competencythat you had framed it and how
it intersects with the UDLapproach Could you expand on
that?
A?
Dr. Burke (06:20):
bit for us, dr Burke.
Yeah, so I look at UDL as theframework for how to design
flexible pathways and culturallyresponsive teaching.
Is this idea of why thosepathways are important to honor
identity, the lived experiencesof our scholars, right?
So like, for example, in UDL,we say multiple means of
(06:42):
engagement, that's all aboutrecruiting interest and building
a sense of purpose, and it'snot just choice for the sake of
choice, like oh, I want to givekids the option to do things,
but it's the opportunity toactually to connect with their
lives, their lived experiences,their culture, their interests.
Because equity isn't this addon to UDL, it's baked in when we
(07:04):
design identity and access inmind.
It's like kids don't just needaccess to learning, they need to
see themselves in it.
So them as a nice marriage,like the peanut butter and jelly
.
They go so well together.
Like you need to know the whyand then the how.
Chris Colley (07:20):
I love that Great analogy too, dr Burke.
That's amazing.
And what are you finding someof those biggest barriers in
this regard?
Like I know, it's not easy,right, like our words seem like,
oh, you just snap your fingersand no, no, no.
This takes a lot of work andplanning.
And how do you get around thosestructures and barriers of
(07:45):
standard education so that everystudent has that feeling?
Dr. Burke (07:50):
Yeah, I love that you said this seems so easy, right,
because we all think that, likeit comes in a spray bottle and
if you spray it it's a meaninglike, oh, like, now'm aware I've
got a little training, I wentto a PD like, really, but really
the part is that we have to.
It's a paradigm shift fromfixing the scholar to fixing the
environment, right.
(08:10):
And so the barriers of that arethe mindset, because shifting
mindset is a lot of work forsome people.
And then I would say anotherbarrier is the weight of
compliance, right, like I hearso many teachers say, how am I
supposed to do this when,ultimately, I'm expected to
teach to these standardizedtests and fit this much
curriculum and I have to get tothese standards?
(08:31):
So this idea of complianceweighs heavy on educators and so
they feel like they can't doUDL.
And then another big barrier isinitiative fatigue, because,
let's be honest, we are in thewave of like there have been so
many things that come and go ineducation, of like this is the
next big it right, name theacronym, fill in the blank, like
(08:53):
ooh, this is what we're alldoing, we're all buying into it,
and then 10 years later it's nolonger the thing.
Chris Colley (08:58):
And then a new spray bottle, as you say Exactly
.
Dr. Burke (09:02):
And neuroscience is telling us that, while UDL is
based on neuroscience and weknow that this thing is going to
stick, unfortunately it'sdebunking things that we also
thought were sticking.
There are tons of educationalframeworks and theories that
neuroscience is debunking andsaying like that's actually not
true, like we don't have onetype of intelligence you know,
(09:23):
as an example of one of thethings we need to debunk.
So people get fatigued with likethinking, like oh, I'm really
bought into this, this is whatI'm going to do, I'm investing
the time, the resources, theeffort and now you're telling me
this isn't the thing.
So it's really hard to getpeople to buy in and shift that
mindset when they have this PTSDof like, how long is this going
(09:45):
to last?
Like when is this going to be?
The old thing too, and I canask me to adopt.
So getting people to get overthat PTSD of the fatigue, of the
new initiatives and helpingthem adopt the mindset.
And so what I do when I workwith teachers is I really talk a
lot about the neuroscience sothat they can see that this is
more than theory, it's more thanresearch, it's more than just
(10:06):
evidence-based practices, butit's actual science of how the
brain acquires information andhow it doesn't right.
And when we know those things,how do we respond to that?
Chris Colley (10:23):
And that's what the framework of UDL is asking
us to do is to respond to thisnew knowledge we have of how the
brain acquires knowledge.
Right, I love that and I mean Itotally agree with you that we
always are looking for the newflavor of the month.
Or you know how can werevolutionize our schools month.
Or you know how can werevolutionize our schools?
The change behind it oftentimesisn't there.
And then another you know newspray bottle comes out the next
year.
Yeah, how do you go aboutevaluating if it's having an
(10:48):
effect or not?
So I bring these.
You know, okay, we're doing UDLthis year for the next four or
five years.
How do they know if it isworking or not?
Like are there?
Are there signs that you willsee in a building, amongst you
know, the peers, the colleagues,that there is this idea that's
starting to change the mindsetsbehind how they're behaving with
(11:11):
each other and their students?
Dr. Burke (11:13):
Yes, absolutely.
The first thing I would say iswe have to stop using the
summative standardized data asour North Star, that's, you know
.
And so if we, if we're onlyusing that as the North Star,
then it is going to be a longhaul before we see that change
immediately, and so we have tobe okay with using some of what
I like to refer to.
I don't know if you're familiarwith the text street data,
(11:36):
which really looks at some ofthose really informal touch
points that those things aregoing to change and happen way
more quickly than the summativestandardized data.
So, if we're okay with lookingat attendance data, are kids
coming to school more oftenbecause they have a sense of
belonging?
Are there less referrals fordiscipline because kids are able
to stay in the class and be apart and acclimate and not be
(11:57):
sent out for discipline issues?
Are they participating in moreschool-based activities, school
spirit, even the anecdotalthings that teachers can see on
a regular basis, like wow, thischild is actually raising their
hand and participating more thanthey had been.
Right, it's that small streetdata that is going to have the
impact and that tells us thatnow we're on the right track and
(12:21):
now we can start lookingforward to seeing some of the
summative data change, but thatshould never be the North Star
of like.
That's the end goal, right?
Because really our North Staris making sure that we are
creating human beings who can beindependent learners and
navigate the world to the bestof their potential.
It's not whether we can performon a standardized test.
(12:41):
So if we unpack what our endgoal is and then look for some
of those touch points along theway like I mentioned attendance,
referrals and all of that thenwe'll start to be able to
measure the impact that UDL hashad on our instruction.
Chris Colley (13:02):
I love those like concrete examples you're giving
Dr Burke like, because it ishard to measure.
You know something that'shappening within.
You know a large organizationto pinpoint it to say, oh yeah,
kids are attending school more.
You know there's lessabsenteeism, there's more
collegial collaboration going on, like all of these you hope,
things that are always happening, but being able to put your
(13:22):
finger on it and say, throughthe work we've done, look what
what's happening, you know,which is pretty remarkable.
I have a little game I want toplay with you Now.
I went on the Novak educationsite and there's such a plethora
of quotes.
Dr. Burke (13:38):
Yes, dr Novak, yes.
Chris Colley (13:42):
But sometimes they need a little bit more meat on
the bone.
Dr. Burke (13:44):
Okay.
Chris Colley (13:46):
I'm going to throw you a quote, and I'd love it if
you could expand on that alittle bit, because I think
they're very insightful.
I love it, but a few more wordsso here's the first one,
insightful, I love it.
But a few more words.
So here's the first one.
There are no labels in UDL.
There are only fabulous,amazing students with different
levels of variability.
Dr. Burke (14:04):
Got it.
Yes, that comes from becausethink about the amount of labels
that we put on kids right fromthe time, and not just the
formal ones, like, obviously, ifthey come in with an IEP or a
504, that's a huge label thatfollows them around.
But even within that, we breakdown and we see that if kids
have traditionally struggled inmath or reading, then we call
them our struggling students andwe say, like they are low end
(14:27):
or they have, you know,difficulties accessing this.
And so what?
We in the UDL mindset we say oh, no, no, in that particular
area, in that one standard, thischild may not have yet shown
proficiency, but that does notmean that they struggle with
math.
Right, math, like these bigconcepts, like we're talking the
(14:47):
entire content.
But that happens a lot.
I know I'm guilty of it myself,as a first few years in my
teaching career too, is Ilabeled kids as like oh, these
are some of my lower readers, soI have to put them in certain
groups and provide certainscaffolds and supports
automatically, before even likereally digging in to see what
were their strengths.
(15:07):
And so that's really what wemean by.
That is where we assume thateveryone has some strengths and
just because they're not yetshown proficiency yet.
Right, because creating theright environment and removing
the barriers allows kids todemonstrate proficiency.
But unfortunately, because thebarriers in the environment has
not been conducive, they havenot had the platform to yet
(15:29):
demonstrate proficiency.
Chris Colley (15:31):
I love the power of.
Yet I always tell my teachersuse that word more and more and
more.
Yeah, and I'm a firm believerin that one.
If you change that one wording,how you talk with colleagues,
how you talk with peers you knowyour students, peers it's going
to bound to do something.
(15:52):
Thanks for bringing that upbecause that is such a huge word
.
All right, that up because thatis such a huge word.
All right.
All the UDL guidelines in theworld won't transform practice
if there aren't in service ofthe belief that all students can
learn.
Oh yeah, that's a beauty.
Dr. Burke (16:09):
That's with anything right.
Where you have people who sayI'm doing this with fidelity,
and to them their interpretationof fidelity is I've opened the
textbook, I've read the teachermanual and I'm going through it
just as I've demonstrated to youso far then those guidelines
are not going to make any changein your classroom.
It starts with having thebelief that everyone can and
(16:54):
will learn under the rightconditions, because once you
believe it, then you holdyourself accountable for
creating those conditions.
Chris Colley (17:02):
Great, that's so well said and I totally see that
too.
I mean, it's such a it's apowerful quote.
It's a simple quote, but itsays you must start to change
your mindset and that we havegrowth mindsets.
It's not fixed, we're not bornwith this one thought in our
head and that we have growthmindsets it's not fixed.
We're not born with this onethought in our head and that's
the way it is.
Sorry, no, don't change here,like this growth mindset that's
(17:25):
often talked about.
I think that's the epitome of itthat Katie Nowak was talking
about in that quote that she hadsaid, which I love.
Now to kind of bring things toa close and I know this is a big
thing to bring things to aclose on, but we're living in
changing times, dr Burke.
We're living in dramaticallychanging times and what happened
(17:47):
five years ago with our cultureand societies is transforming
again, you know, with theintroduction of AI and
post-COVID, still kind of likethere with us.
Yeah, what are your words thatyou can share with us about how
to stay resilient when it seemslike there is constant change
(18:11):
going on and adaptation, andwhat can we hold on to that is
steady?
Dr. Burke (18:18):
yeah, I love that.
It is a good way to end because, being in the history that we
have of things changing, I thinkpeople just assume that there's
still more to come right, likewe're only at one of the lulls
in this, but then it comes backaround and it'll keep being
cyclical.
So some people have thementality of I'll just wait for
this to go away too and change.
(18:39):
Others are just holding on fordear life like I hope it doesn't
change again.
I can't take any more.
So I'll say, through all ofthat is we have to stay grounded
in the why right and hold tightto the principles of UDL, not
necessarily the specific toolsof it, because that's the piece
that could change and I leavethat open like that absolutely
(19:00):
could.
Like thinking about what youjust said, that example of COVID
right During the pandemic, somany teachers panicked because
some of their tried and true,their favorite strategies didn't
translate to Zoom right and sothey just didn't know how to
change that.
But having the UDL mindset, notthis tool right, says you're
asking yourself constantly thequestion what's the goal?
(19:22):
What are the flexible pathways?
Right, so you can't conductyour beloved, like your Socratic
seminar that you've done inperson and you just love it.
But during the pandemic maybeyou shifted to the flip grid
discussions, right, so that's adifferent tool, but it's the
same principle of multiple meansof engagement.
So if you're speaking to thatwhy and not necessarily always
(19:43):
the how, because that coulddefinitely be flexible If we
went into another pandemic whatare multiple ways to allow them
to access and then todemonstrate their learning?
Those grounded whys should neverchange.
(20:03):
That should always be the NorthStar.
But I would also just suggestthat that's like for teachers
more so, but I was like messagesfor leaders as well, too,
because leaders have to resistthe urge to standardize
everything.
Right, I get it, I was adistrict leader for so long.
It's like we want consistency,we need to make sure, but then
we're also saying that we wantour teachers to get to know kids
(20:27):
and, like, make them have thesense of belonging.
You can't have it both ways.
You can't say that it's goingto be a rigid, standardized,
where everyone gets the samepackage.
But get to know your kids andmake sure you're meeting their
needs, right, like so we have tobe more flexible in this idea,
because fidelity doesn't meanuniformity.
Fidelity is the commitment toaccess engagement and expression
(20:48):
.
Right, our scholars rely on usto design spaces where
learning's possible for everyone, even when the ground is
shifting underneath us.
Right?
So the goal is to build apractice that's so flexible and
so human-centered that, nomatter what the world throws at
us, we're always ready to meetour scholars where they are.
Chris Colley (21:09):
Wow, dr Birkwald, thank you.
I mean this is 25 minutes, itgoes by like the wind, but I
think all those seeds that youthrew out there, I mean they're
going to take root.
They're already taking root.
I think a lot of what you saidto reinforces the kinds of
things we feel.
But you know, sometimesstructures and the outside gets
(21:33):
in the way of our beliefs andwhat we know is right for our
kids.
So I thank you so much forthrowing those out there and I
know my listeners are going toappreciate this as a as a
refresher and a stimulatingconversation to kind of get the
year going.
So I really appreciate yourtime and thank you so much for
joining me.
Dr. Burke (21:53):
Thank you, I appreciate you having me so much
.
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