September 23, 2025 • 30 mins
Have we been approaching education all wrong? In this mind-shifting conversation with renowned developmental psychologist Dr. Gordon Neufeld, we explore the invisible but essential foundation of all learning: relationship.
As another school year begins, Dr. Neufeld challenges educators to recognize their primary role as "attachment agents" rather than just instructors. The modern educational system often separates children from their natural "villages of cascading care," creating an environment nature never intended. When this happens, our first responsibility is to help children maintain connections with their primary caregivers while building secure attachments with us as teachers.
Most provocatively, Dr. Neufeld argues that many of the competencies we're desperately trying to teach—empathy, self-regulation, resilience—cannot actually be taught at all. "We're teaching what can't be taught," he observes. "We can only teach children to perform." These qualities emerge naturally when children feel secure in their attachments and experience genuine playfulness.
And here's where Dr. Neufeld's wisdom becomes truly transformative: he distinguishes between structured "play activities" and true playfulness. When the brain enters the play drive (as opposed to attachment or achievement drives), learning is optimized, creativity flourishes, and even sensory processing improves. This has profound implications for how we approach education, particularly for children with attention or sensory challenges.
Twenty years after publishing his landmark book "Hold On to Your Kids," Dr. Neufeld's message remains more urgent than ever. In our digital age, where screens and social media compete for children's attention and attachment, educators must "retreat to the basics" rather than pushing harder with more structured learning.
Ready to transform your approach to teaching and child development? Listen now to discover how prioritizing attachment and playfulness creates the optimal conditions for nature to do what it does best: grow children into their fullest potential.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Colley (00:01):
welcome back everyone.
Here we are in another Shifted,shifted Podcast.
Start of new school year ishere, 25, 26.
And I'm reaching across Canadato pull in just an amazing
expert, dr Gordon Neufeld, onattachment theory and
relationship building, which Ithink when we begin these school
(00:23):
years, is crucial for us to dowith our students and also our
colleagues within the school tocreate that kind of welcoming
community where we encouragelearning and growth and mistakes
and all of those beautifulthings.
So, gordon, thanks so much forhopping on here and sharing some
insight about this topic thatyou've been dabbling in for a
(00:46):
long time I'll say yes, thankyou.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (00:49):
Thank you, Chris, Glad to be here.
Thanks for the invitation tojoin you.
Chris Colley (00:53):
A real pleasure of mine.
So when we start talking aboutschool readiness, I think that's
kind of something that we'regetting our kids ready for to go
into school.
But I heard on a TED Talk thatyou had done a while ago that
nature's job is to grow the kidsright.
It will do all of that stuff,but it's really our parents and
(01:16):
teachers to cultivate therelationships a part of that
which goes tandem with thatprocess.
What are some of the ways thatyou talk to people educators,
parents about kind of gettingout of the way of nature and
focusing on what you have powerto do, which is help kids with
(01:40):
that maturation process beforethey are going into school, and
this idea of school readinessCould you put some words to that
for us?
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Yes, I could write a couple of books about it, Chris.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (01:53):
That's a very good question and it gets
to the issue.
Of course, as you said, andthank you for listening to that,
it's always nice to know thatsomebody took in that TEDx talk
on.
I think it was RelationshipMatters or I'm not sure that's
right.
Chris Colley (02:10):
It was called Relationships Matters.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (02:12):
The thing about relationship and I think I
bring it out there too is it'sinvisible.
It's a context right, even theword context is with text, but
it's not the text, so it'sinvisible.
And if everything was workingwell, we wouldn't have to pay
attention to it.
And culture is meant to keep ustogether.
It's the ties that bind, isn'tit?
(02:32):
Rituals and so on.
And so when we do somethinglike a school and we take
children out of the villages ofcascading care where they are,
it really sets up.
When you put them into daycare,it just sets up something that
nature never had in mind.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
You know, like this, this wasn't the deal.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (02:56):
And that's what makes it so difficult.
You know, in the plant world,all the attachments are below
ground.
You don't see them.
You only see the fruit ofattachments.
You never see the attachments.
Well, that's the problem ingeneral society.
You don't see attachments.
You don't see the relationshipbetween an atom and a proton.
(03:18):
You don't actually see therelationship between the moon
and the earth, yet thatrelationship defines everything.
It's invisible.
It's invisible and it's notwhat is seen.
And that's what attachment is.
It's invisible, and that's whyit's so important for those who
can think, and educators shouldbe the primary ones who can
(03:40):
think about things andphilosophies and so on.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Is that they?
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (03:44):
realize that when we do this kind of thing,
when we take children out of thecontext of cascading care with
their grandparents, theirancestors, their tribes, their
cultures and so on and so on,that we essentially become
attachment agents first andforemost.
And so we think of ourselves aseducators, of teaching children
(04:06):
.
And again, as you spoke to, theissue is actually all the
wonderful things that we talkabout develop quite
spontaneously if children havethe conditions that are
conducive to that.
And the number one condition isan experience of attachment
where the togetherness is notthreatened.
(04:26):
Now there's no way youngchildren are able to hold on to
their parents and theirgrandparents when apart.
So they need help.
So that's the first thing ofhelp is how do we help them hold
on when apart?
You know, we become agents ofattachment that way.
Secondly, they don't functionvery well outside a context of
(04:47):
attachment.
So they'll naturally gravitatetowards their peers because
they're at a.
Whenever attachments don't work,you retreat to sameness as
being the main idea ofattachment.
So you can see the health insociety In society like.
You can see the health like inthe American society now, with
(05:07):
this huge tribalization, it goesto sameness and differentness.
Whenever a society does that,you know it's in trouble to
sameness, borrowing anotherperson's laugh, having to be the
same it absolutely thwarts thewhole individuation process.
(05:28):
They're not growing up, but wethink they're being socialized,
we think they are now conformingto the society they belong in.
In actual fact, they don'tbelong to each other, because
that's not how care is delivered.
Care is delivered in cascadingcare, and so our job is not only
to become agents of attachmentand help them hold on to their
parents when apart and anintuitive teacher will kind of
(05:52):
get that, especially with ayoung one.
That that's what they need todo.
But the second thing is isyou've got to get into the
business yourself.
You've got to get into thevillage of attachment so the
child attaches to you, so thatthere is a context in which
nature can do.
What only it can do is to growthe child up.
Nowadays we've got into nature'sbusiness, trying to teach
(06:12):
things like empathy and tryingto teach things like
self-regulation.
This is all spontaneous.
We're teaching what can't betaught.
We can only teach children toperform.
I mean, that's always been thecriticism of school.
Is the school?
Is learning taking place?
If that was true, why are wecrushing their curiosity?
And are we not only measuringperformance?
(06:34):
And is that not like a monkey,we're doing circus tricks?
Is school not only a circuswhere children perform?
Do we really have we reallylearned?
Can we remember things we have?
Where children perform?
Do we really have we really,you know, learned?
Can we remember things we have?
And why is it that morechildren are curious in
kindergarten than in grade 12?
That's not good.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
That's not good.
So there is something that yousaid, too, that struck me that
kids learn more than all formaleducation in their first four
years of life than all formaleducation.
The brain is just going crazy.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (07:14):
But you learn about what you're attached
to, how to attach, about how tobe part of, how to matter,
because that's what the brainjust soaks in.
Because that's what the brainjust soaks in.
And the second thing is, ifthere is luxury there, then it
goes into the play mode and playoptimizes attention learning.
It goes automatically into theplay mode and so that is how you
(07:36):
know there's luxury.
There's a problem is that evenif attachments like for a three
or four-year-old, even if theattachments are, you know, the
child feels very secure in thetogetherness, provided it only
lasts for a couple of hours, andthen the child goes back
because play can't be sustained,right right, because it's a
luxury.
And so we can call things play,we can put it into the
(07:59):
curriculum, we can say go playnow.
That doesn't mean that they'replayful.
Well, we've been thinking ofplay rather than playfulness.
It's playfulness that is thenumber one indicator of
emotional health and well-being,even for our cats.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
And for humans.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (08:15):
And if we understood this is how do we
preserve playfulness, and thatincludes the teacher.
If the teacher isn't playfulanymore, oh my goodness, we've
got a problem.
Chris Colley (08:25):
Right.
That's an amazing point too,Gordon, because oftentimes when
I talk to teachers, preschoolteachers, daycare teachers
they're like there's still this,not quite sure of what play is
and like the benefits of playthey're.
They're even in like preschool.
They have this mindset thatthey have to prepare these kids
for grade one and grade two andetc.
(08:46):
Throughout, and play reallygets neglected in the sense that
it's not valued as somethingthat is actually way more
important than learning to countor write your name.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (08:56):
At that age, I'm saying Well, at every age,
play is.
Play is the nature school forlearning.
We learn more when we'replayful than anything else.
I mean, the major corporationsin the world have known that
creativity happens in play.
You know all of the latestscience on attention deficit is
(09:18):
no.
You get attention into the playmode, in curiosity, and the
filters work differently and thebrain finds its way around.
And this is the antidote, notmedication, which actually
interferes with the developmentof the prefrontal cortex.
Play just optimizes all of this.
It engages only that whichdoesn't overload the brain.
(09:39):
So in this explosion ofhypersensitivity and spectrum,
we should know well what is theanswer.
If we're talking about sensoryoverload, our brains were not
ever designed for theinformation they have in this
world.
They are totally overstimulated, some more than others, and
those who are hypersensitive andcannot filter out the
(10:01):
information need play as adefault scenario, because play
automatically regulates incominginformation to that which
you're curious about, and soyour brain has half a chance to
be able to work with stuffinstead of spending its whole
time trying to keep things out,like it already throws out close
(10:22):
to 95% of all stimulation, butin the hypersensitive it's
struggling to keep it out, soit's a defensive mode and we
don't have growth, we don't haveprogress.
So play would be the standardmodality for any child having
difficulty, be they three or bethey 15, would be the issue.
Chris Colley (10:48):
And with that play coming in, we tend to also snip
it out, formalize the educationPlay is like for recess and
after school and lunch, whateverany, any time that it's not
during the class well, we callit play.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (11:02):
And we call it play because play is supposed
to be engaging, right?
If you look back to your, yourown recess certainly mine very
little play happened.
You're busy scanning for whatworks, who does who likes, who
can I play with, who I won't berejected with?
This is all attachment work.
Children are exhausted afterrecess.
Many of them are much safer inthe class than that.
(11:27):
It's a Lord of the Fliesscenario out there that we put
supervisors in.
Now the savvy ones can learnhow to function around it, but
if we looked at it, Savvy onescan learn how to function around
it, but if we looked at it,it's not play.
Play is an instinct, is a drive.
It's one of three basic drives,the other ones being attachment
and achievement.
Play is the only one that's notoutcome-based.
(11:50):
We have used play as to callgames which are primarily
outcome-based screen activities,which are primarily
outcome-based sports, which areonly play if they're not
outcome-based, and so we'reusing this word.
We even call things likeplayoffs, which are completely
(12:13):
outcome-based Right, completelyoutcome-based.
There's no playfulness inanybody in playoffs.
The real issue is not what wecall play, but when the brain is
in the play drive, because whenthe brain is in the play drive.
It's expressive.
There is a certain safety fromfeelings getting hurt.
(12:35):
It's a state of active rest.
The brain is optimized in theplay drive.
It is where everything goodunfolds.
It's a greenhouse for growth.
And that will be true ofteachers as well.
All their creativity will be intheir playfulness.
And if they can't figure outhow to be a teacher and how to
(12:55):
preserve their playfulness,they're in trouble.
And that's the bottom line.
And that's why I said we knowmore about what our cats.
And if they can't figure outhow to be a teacher and how to
preserve their playfulness,they're in trouble.
And that's the bottom line andthat's why I said we know more
about our cats.
If our cat has had a trauma,how do we know?
When we get our cat back?
Speaker 1 (13:07):
When they're playful again, it's the same with us.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (13:10):
It's the same with us.
And so we shouldn't be thinkingof play, we should be thinking
of playfulness.
And playfulness is when thebrain is in the play drive, as
opposed to in one of the twooutcome drives.
In attachment, the outcome isproximity.
In achievement, the outcome isdesired results.
And so in one of the twooutcome and play is the
(13:34):
spontaneous drive you can't makeyourself playful, you can't
teach playfulness.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
You can't catch it, it is spontaneous.
You can't.
You know, I often totally.
Chris Colley (13:47):
I hear like teachers say oh, I'm not
creative, oh I have noimagination, I'm like well you
do.
Yeah, are you playing, you know?
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (13:54):
I mean, I guess that word playful is
really all for that, it's allabout the playfulness and when
your children are playful, whenthey're being playful, it
doesn't matter what it is Likeif they're old enough to play
with words, with wit, with irony, with paradox, like what is
irony anyway?
What is a?
Speaker 1 (14:13):
metaphor it's playing with concepts.
What is philosophy?
It's playing with ideas.
Now, when we teach these things, we're no longer.
We've lost the plot here.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (14:25):
We've lost the plot that when our
attachment needs are taken careof sufficiently, when there is
sufficient togetherness andwe're not facing threats to that
, we turn from creatures ofattachment to creatures of play.
And that is us, and that isn'tjust for kids, that's for us.
(14:47):
At our death's door is, how dowe face our mortality If we
can't face it?
We can't face it directly,we're not meant to.
We have to face it in song, ina lament, we have to face it in
poetry, we have to face it inone step removed.
That's what generates.
All the poetry in the world isfacing these things.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
We have to do it in the play mode.
There's no way we could do itdirectly.
Chris Colley (15:17):
Amazing and I'm kind of like starting to make.
Some things are starting toconnect a bit, and I mean a lot
of what we try to teach our kidssaw skill wise.
You know how to collaborate,how to share, how to critically
think, how to you know we haveall these great skills that we
want to bestow upon our youngestgenerations.
(15:38):
Is it simply just kind of againgetting out of their way?
You can't teach resilienceright Like you have to be in
environments.
You could maybe to practice it.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (15:50):
No, you can't, you can't.
No, you can't.
I mean the very idea of beingable to teach empathy, and if
you teach something, then youreinforce the skill that is made
as soon as you act in a caringway for personal benefit.
It's not empathy, it'snarcissism, it's selfishness.
You can't teach it.
You can't teach it no more thanyou can teach playfulness.
(16:14):
This is spontaneous life force,unfolding if conditions are
conducive.
Now we're full of paradoxes.
We use what children care aboutagainst them and then are
surprised when they don't careanymore.
But caring is at the heart ofempathy.
It's not taking somebody elseinto consideration.
(16:35):
The bully does that better thananybody else.
Right, right.
And that's why they stopped Inscience.
They stopped doing all work onempathy because they found that
the ones who had the bestempathy were the bullies.
So they called it cold empathybecause they had made a huge
mistake.
Is it caring?
Is that the root of it?
So it's 10 years at the root ofit.
(17:00):
So it's 10 years.
It took how many years whenscience forsake self-esteem
because they realized that theycouldn't go anywhere that way,
that those that were in denialhad the best self-esteem of
anyone?
We're all insecure, and if afour-year-old doesn't know that
bad things can happen to thosethat they love, then there's a
problem with that Right.
And then when we say andpathologize that there's a
(17:20):
problem with that Right.
So we're trying to teach things.
We're trying to teach an appletree how to how to bear apples.
Chris Colley (17:29):
Wow, I get that.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (17:30):
Yeah, that not only not only is it futile,
it is dangerous, because youknow nowadays, when you go to a
store and you get an apple, howmany apples taste like apples
anymore, because the wholeindustry has gone to create a
strawberry that we can call astrawberry, looks like a
(17:53):
strawberry, an apple that it'sprematurely to get, fruit that
they can get to the store andthat can last.
Does it nurture you?
No, no.
So it's even worse is when youget an act that takes the place
of the real thing, and that'sall.
Learning theorists know how todo is to get us to act right,
(18:15):
but we, when we act nice, whenwe feel mean, we call it
hypocrisy.
Yet with children, we call itself-regulation and we call it
empathy.
Right interesting.
Chris Colley (18:30):
Wow, you're making so many things trigger here,
gordon.
I'm like I I know that we won'thave enough time.
Well, we need like 20 more ofthese.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
That's why I said I could write a couple of more
books if I could write them.
I'm a terrible slow writer.
That's why I had to get GabberMate to help me with Hold On To
your Kids.
Chris Colley (18:49):
Which is an amazing book, such a legacy to
that book as well, and the truththat it speaks.
I mean, I go back to it oftenjust to remind myself.
But if we could, I want to kindof take some of this mindset
that we're talking about and putit in a reality situation of
what's going on now.
We have the school coming back,teachers getting new loads of
(19:12):
kids.
Yes, what are the key thingsthat teachers should be aware of
at the start of these schoolyears where their awareness of
attachment theories andrelationship building?
Can you fill in maybe someadvice for teachers on the
things to be aware of or tipsthat you might offer up?
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (19:32):
Well, it's keeping it in mind, and that's
the hard part of it.
It's invisible.
It's keeping it in mind andthat's the hard part of it.
It's invisible is that whenwe're dealing with other people
as a therapist, it took me along time to realize that I
really was only an agent ofattachment, and I'm talking in
terms of adults and marriagetherapy as well.
I'm helping individuals hold onto each other, find
togetherness in a world that'sfalling apart.
(19:53):
I'm helping individuals grievethe lack of it, but, where
possible, trying to be able tohelp them hold on.
That's, first and foremost, theissue.
If they don't, children arefilled with attachment.
Alarm, which we call anxiety,agitation, attachment problems,
cutting and burning these areall things to be able to reduce
(20:13):
it.
So we have all kinds ofbehavioral problems.
Adrenaline seeking, anxiety isthe biggest one.
It's the one there thatindicate that children are
alarmed and they're becomingdefended against it, and so the
bottom issue is that we'refalling apart as a society,
(20:42):
society.
It takes nature six years ofoptimal development to be able
to cultivate the ability in achild to hold on when apart.
They have to have given theirheart to their mom, dad,
grandparent, so that that meansthat it can transcend death.
They have to now start sharingall that is within their heart
so they feel known from insideout, because they're beginning
to identify with their insidesrather than their outsides.
(21:03):
That's part of the identitythat takes a long time of
development.
Most adolescents today are onlyat the second level of all
about sameness.
If you can't be with, then atleast you can be like, and that
is a great polarization that ishappening around the globe.
Why?
Because they're not in lovingrelationships, because they
haven't given their heart tosomebody.
(21:25):
If a five-year-old hasn't giventheir heart to mommy and daddy
or to the teacher or whoeversubstitutes for it, they're in
trouble and they're going to befull of anxiety.
If a child, because it hasn'tbeen safe, has moved to the
alpha mode and is controllingand bossy and prescriptive, we
think such a child is moreindependent, because we realize
(21:47):
that no, this isn't independence.
This is a child who is tryingto stay on top of his world, who
is controlling.
The problem is you can't makeyourself safe, so their anxiety
escalates and they developeating disorders because you
can't be in control of your ownfood.
What do we do?
We try to teach childrenself-care.
Who should be taking care ofthem, us Right Putting them into
(22:12):
this.
So what am I trying to do as ateacher if I'm involved in it,
even as a psychologist to do asa teacher, if I'm involved in it
, even as a psychologist, if I'minvolved in it, if I have any
profession outside of that?
Natural cascading care thing isthe way nature is meant to grow
us up and to connect us.
(22:33):
If I'm involved, if parents arefarming out their kids to be
raised, and I'm involved in thatendeavor from the outside, then
my number one responsibility isto be able to to keep
relational relationship in mind,helping them, you know, be able
to look for to, you know, tobridge the divide, to collect
(22:56):
the kids, to get their eyes,their smiles, their nods, to
build relationships, and thatthis needs to be with adults,
not with other kids, becausethat is not how care is
delivered.
Care is delivered inhierarchical attachments and so
not in terms of siblings.
When they attach to each other,they get locked out of the care
(23:19):
their parents and grandparentshave for them.
You know, just like if starsrevolved around each other.
Well, it's really obvious inthe universe, because if planets
revolved around each other,they'd die Like they'd crash
into each other, and that's whathappens with our kids are all
revolving around each other andit's disastrous because care
(23:40):
doesn't get through, and whencare doesn't get through, we
have mental health problemsgoing through the roof.
Chris Colley (23:46):
Right, which we're seeing I guess it brings me to
this question is hold on to yourchildren, onto your kids.
Sorry, I mean, you put that outa long time ago and it almost
it seems like a differentenvironment that we are in now.
Yes, how do you see, does thatmessage still resonate today,
like more than ever that's whatI was going to ask More than
(24:07):
ever.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (24:08):
I, I, I was so concerned about how slow I
was.
I.
I wrote the book in about about1999 and it was way too big,
about 240,000 words, and Ithought, oh my goodness,
everybody's going to discoverthis.
And there was a little bit ofpride in me that wanted to be
credited with being able to, youknow, say, hey, wait, something
(24:31):
is happening, you know here,and I shouldn't have been
concerned First of all.
That's why I went hunting forGabber, because Gabber's a
really quick writer, right, andI said help, I need help.
Because he was one of mystudents taking my parenting
courses.
I said help, and so he helpedme, and of course he's such a
good writer and now you knowit's such a great help he helped
(24:55):
me get it out.
It didn't get out until 2004,.
So he helped me get it out.
It didn't get out until 2004,.
But that was one year beforeFacebook, before social media,
right.
But it's even more importantnow, because now we're seeing
(25:15):
all the symptoms of childrenbeing pulled out of orbit from
those who are meant to take careof them.
And we're seeing all of thosesymptoms that are there,
including all kinds of mentalhealth problems, addictions with
digital devices, with socialmedia and so on.
No, this is the thing is, ifteachers remember only this one
thing is the child needs adultsin his life who care for them.
(25:38):
And for that care to getthrough, the child needs to be
attached to them.
It's like the umbilical cordyou can't get it through if the
umbilical cord isn't there.
So what is my job?
My job is to work at attachmentand let attachment work for me
and for the child.
It will work for me because thechild will naturally attend to
me, want to be good for me, wantto do what I want them to do,
(26:00):
so I'll have more influence inthat child.
It will open their mind.
Now Socrates himself said indefense when he was being
criticized, according to legend,that is on his Socratic method.
Well, I couldn't teach him.
He didn't love me Like if thatwas his defense.
He knew well that attachment wasa bottom line and then we think
(26:20):
it's our way of teaching, wethink it's a curriculum.
No, no Again, a child can learnfrom the worst teacher if
they're attached to the teacher.
Chris Colley (26:30):
Right right.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (26:31):
Yeah, attachment does all the work.
We have to retreat.
We're not retreating.
We're teaching harder.
We're teaching more.
We're not retreating.
We're teaching harder.
We're teaching more.
We're teaching longer hours.
We've got to retreat.
Why is it that allthree-year-olds seem to be
gifted and then they becomestupid when they come to school?
Chris Colley (26:51):
Yes, Well said, very well said.
I mean the ideas and theconcepts that you brought in are
so relevant still today and, Ithink, even more so needed
because of all of the otherthings competing.
I mean back then it was justpeers, but now throw in social
media, throw in digital devices,throw in phones and like we're
(27:15):
battling more and more, it seems, to create those relationships
because we have tons ofcompetition.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (27:21):
Yes, we do, we do, and that's the basic
thing.
You know, what was the problemwith television?
That wasn't the problem withtelevision, it's what it
interfered with.
Chris Colley (27:30):
Exactly yeah.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (27:32):
And what is the problem with false play,
with outcome-based play?
The little bit won't hurt, butit's what it interferes with,
and it interferes with therelationships that a child needs
.
It interferes with the playthey need.
And so, in the research on thescience of play, the kind of
play that children need is itwas consistent for generations
(27:54):
and now it's taking a nosedive.
And this is huge, because whenwe lose the play we need, we,
you know again, none of us cangrow ourselves up.
That's not with.
You can't teach maturity.
None of us can grow ourselvesup you, you don't.
And and this is only somethingnature has been able to do we
(28:16):
can't make the geranium grow, wecan't make the apple tree grow,
we can't make a garden grow.
We can be midwives.
But that's only providing theconditions that are conducive.
We have never cracked life andthat is a spontaneous unfolding
of potential.
That is what it is.
Teachers are to be a holder forthis providing the conditions
(28:38):
that are conducive for nature todo its work.
What are its conditions?
Attachment and play.
So, as things disintegrate inour society, we've got to
retreat to those things, to beable to focus on cultivating a
relationship, the child'srelationship, helping them hold
on to those who have the care todeliver to them and helping
(29:01):
them form the connection with us, the attachment that they want
to be with us, a bit like usbelong to us, so that we can
take care of their relationalneeds and then nature can do
what it does best grow them up.
Chris Colley (29:18):
Amazing.
Well, gordon, this has beenabsolutely mind blowing for me,
and I know the listeners aregoing to feel similar.
I wish we had more time tocontinue this, but I want to
respect our time.
Again, thanks so much fortaking some time out of your day
and sharing your knowledge withus, and I'm sure these words
ring true to educators and theselittle, just helpful reminders,
(29:41):
as you said.
A tip, think about it.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Just keep it in mind.
That's all you need to do is.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (29:50):
It's simpler than you think.
You know it's simpler than youthink.
But you need to retreat, notpush ahead.
You need to retreat to thebasics, to the elements.
If we retreated instead ofpushed ahead, we'd find the
answers would be there.
Well, it's my pleasure, as youcan tell.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
I've got less to say about these things.
Chris Colley (30:09):
I hope one day you come and hop on again and we
continue this amazingconversation.
It's been a real pleasure, sothank you.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Thank you, Bye.
Chris.
welcome back everyone.
Here we are in another Shifted,shifted Podcast.
Start of new school year ishere, 25, 26.
And I'm reaching across Canadato pull in just an amazing
expert, dr Gordon Neufeld, onattachment theory and
relationship building, which Ithink when we begin these school
(00:23):
years, is crucial for us to dowith our students and also our
colleagues within the school tocreate that kind of welcoming
community where we encouragelearning and growth and mistakes
and all of those beautifulthings.
So, gordon, thanks so much forhopping on here and sharing some
insight about this topic thatyou've been dabbling in for a
(00:46):
long time I'll say yes, thankyou.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (00:49):
Thank you, Chris, Glad to be here.
Thanks for the invitation tojoin you.
Chris Colley (00:53):
A real pleasure of mine.
So when we start talking aboutschool readiness, I think that's
kind of something that we'regetting our kids ready for to go
into school.
But I heard on a TED Talk thatyou had done a while ago that
nature's job is to grow the kidsright.
It will do all of that stuff,but it's really our parents and
(01:16):
teachers to cultivate therelationships a part of that
which goes tandem with thatprocess.
What are some of the ways thatyou talk to people educators,
parents about kind of gettingout of the way of nature and
focusing on what you have powerto do, which is help kids with
(01:40):
that maturation process beforethey are going into school, and
this idea of school readinessCould you put some words to that
for us?
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Yes, I could write a couple of books about it, Chris.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (01:53):
That's a very good question and it gets
to the issue.
Of course, as you said, andthank you for listening to that,
it's always nice to know thatsomebody took in that TEDx talk
on.
I think it was RelationshipMatters or I'm not sure that's
right.
Chris Colley (02:10):
It was called Relationships Matters.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (02:12):
The thing about relationship and I think I
bring it out there too is it'sinvisible.
It's a context right, even theword context is with text, but
it's not the text, so it'sinvisible.
And if everything was workingwell, we wouldn't have to pay
attention to it.
And culture is meant to keep ustogether.
It's the ties that bind, isn'tit?
(02:32):
Rituals and so on.
And so when we do somethinglike a school and we take
children out of the villages ofcascading care where they are,
it really sets up.
When you put them into daycare,it just sets up something that
nature never had in mind.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
You know, like this, this wasn't the deal.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (02:56):
And that's what makes it so difficult.
You know, in the plant world,all the attachments are below
ground.
You don't see them.
You only see the fruit ofattachments.
You never see the attachments.
Well, that's the problem ingeneral society.
You don't see attachments.
You don't see the relationshipbetween an atom and a proton.
(03:18):
You don't actually see therelationship between the moon
and the earth, yet thatrelationship defines everything.
It's invisible.
It's invisible and it's notwhat is seen.
And that's what attachment is.
It's invisible, and that's whyit's so important for those who
can think, and educators shouldbe the primary ones who can
(03:40):
think about things andphilosophies and so on.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Is that they?
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (03:44):
realize that when we do this kind of thing,
when we take children out of thecontext of cascading care with
their grandparents, theirancestors, their tribes, their
cultures and so on and so on,that we essentially become
attachment agents first andforemost.
And so we think of ourselves aseducators, of teaching children
(04:06):
.
And again, as you spoke to, theissue is actually all the
wonderful things that we talkabout develop quite
spontaneously if children havethe conditions that are
conducive to that.
And the number one condition isan experience of attachment
where the togetherness is notthreatened.
(04:26):
Now there's no way youngchildren are able to hold on to
their parents and theirgrandparents when apart.
So they need help.
So that's the first thing ofhelp is how do we help them hold
on when apart?
You know, we become agents ofattachment that way.
Secondly, they don't functionvery well outside a context of
(04:47):
attachment.
So they'll naturally gravitatetowards their peers because
they're at a.
Whenever attachments don't work,you retreat to sameness as
being the main idea ofattachment.
So you can see the health insociety In society like.
You can see the health like inthe American society now, with
(05:07):
this huge tribalization, it goesto sameness and differentness.
Whenever a society does that,you know it's in trouble to
sameness, borrowing anotherperson's laugh, having to be the
same it absolutely thwarts thewhole individuation process.
(05:28):
They're not growing up, but wethink they're being socialized,
we think they are now conformingto the society they belong in.
In actual fact, they don'tbelong to each other, because
that's not how care is delivered.
Care is delivered in cascadingcare, and so our job is not only
to become agents of attachmentand help them hold on to their
parents when apart and anintuitive teacher will kind of
(05:52):
get that, especially with ayoung one.
That that's what they need todo.
But the second thing is isyou've got to get into the
business yourself.
You've got to get into thevillage of attachment so the
child attaches to you, so thatthere is a context in which
nature can do.
What only it can do is to growthe child up.
Nowadays we've got into nature'sbusiness, trying to teach
(06:12):
things like empathy and tryingto teach things like
self-regulation.
This is all spontaneous.
We're teaching what can't betaught.
We can only teach children toperform.
I mean, that's always been thecriticism of school.
Is the school?
Is learning taking place?
If that was true, why are wecrushing their curiosity?
And are we not only measuringperformance?
(06:34):
And is that not like a monkey,we're doing circus tricks?
Is school not only a circuswhere children perform?
Do we really have we reallylearned?
Can we remember things we have?
Where children perform?
Do we really have we really,you know, learned?
Can we remember things we have?
And why is it that morechildren are curious in
kindergarten than in grade 12?
That's not good.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
That's not good.
So there is something that yousaid, too, that struck me that
kids learn more than all formaleducation in their first four
years of life than all formaleducation.
The brain is just going crazy.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (07:14):
But you learn about what you're attached
to, how to attach, about how tobe part of, how to matter,
because that's what the brainjust soaks in.
Because that's what the brainjust soaks in.
And the second thing is, ifthere is luxury there, then it
goes into the play mode and playoptimizes attention learning.
It goes automatically into theplay mode and so that is how you
(07:36):
know there's luxury.
There's a problem is that evenif attachments like for a three
or four-year-old, even if theattachments are, you know, the
child feels very secure in thetogetherness, provided it only
lasts for a couple of hours, andthen the child goes back
because play can't be sustained,right right, because it's a
luxury.
And so we can call things play,we can put it into the
(07:59):
curriculum, we can say go playnow.
That doesn't mean that they'replayful.
Well, we've been thinking ofplay rather than playfulness.
It's playfulness that is thenumber one indicator of
emotional health and well-being,even for our cats.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
And for humans.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (08:15):
And if we understood this is how do we
preserve playfulness, and thatincludes the teacher.
If the teacher isn't playfulanymore, oh my goodness, we've
got a problem.
Chris Colley (08:25):
Right.
That's an amazing point too,Gordon, because oftentimes when
I talk to teachers, preschoolteachers, daycare teachers
they're like there's still this,not quite sure of what play is
and like the benefits of playthey're.
They're even in like preschool.
They have this mindset thatthey have to prepare these kids
for grade one and grade two andetc.
(08:46):
Throughout, and play reallygets neglected in the sense that
it's not valued as somethingthat is actually way more
important than learning to countor write your name.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (08:56):
At that age, I'm saying Well, at every age,
play is.
Play is the nature school forlearning.
We learn more when we'replayful than anything else.
I mean, the major corporationsin the world have known that
creativity happens in play.
You know all of the latestscience on attention deficit is
(09:18):
no.
You get attention into the playmode, in curiosity, and the
filters work differently and thebrain finds its way around.
And this is the antidote, notmedication, which actually
interferes with the developmentof the prefrontal cortex.
Play just optimizes all of this.
It engages only that whichdoesn't overload the brain.
(09:39):
So in this explosion ofhypersensitivity and spectrum,
we should know well what is theanswer.
If we're talking about sensoryoverload, our brains were not
ever designed for theinformation they have in this
world.
They are totally overstimulated, some more than others, and
those who are hypersensitive andcannot filter out the
(10:01):
information need play as adefault scenario, because play
automatically regulates incominginformation to that which
you're curious about, and soyour brain has half a chance to
be able to work with stuffinstead of spending its whole
time trying to keep things out,like it already throws out close
(10:22):
to 95% of all stimulation, butin the hypersensitive it's
struggling to keep it out, soit's a defensive mode and we
don't have growth, we don't haveprogress.
So play would be the standardmodality for any child having
difficulty, be they three or bethey 15, would be the issue.
Chris Colley (10:48):
And with that play coming in, we tend to also snip
it out, formalize the educationPlay is like for recess and
after school and lunch, whateverany, any time that it's not
during the class well, we callit play.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (11:02):
And we call it play because play is supposed
to be engaging, right?
If you look back to your, yourown recess certainly mine very
little play happened.
You're busy scanning for whatworks, who does who likes, who
can I play with, who I won't berejected with?
This is all attachment work.
Children are exhausted afterrecess.
Many of them are much safer inthe class than that.
(11:27):
It's a Lord of the Fliesscenario out there that we put
supervisors in.
Now the savvy ones can learnhow to function around it, but
if we looked at it, Savvy onescan learn how to function around
it, but if we looked at it,it's not play.
Play is an instinct, is a drive.
It's one of three basic drives,the other ones being attachment
and achievement.
Play is the only one that's notoutcome-based.
(11:50):
We have used play as to callgames which are primarily
outcome-based screen activities,which are primarily
outcome-based sports, which areonly play if they're not
outcome-based, and so we'reusing this word.
We even call things likeplayoffs, which are completely
(12:13):
outcome-based Right, completelyoutcome-based.
There's no playfulness inanybody in playoffs.
The real issue is not what wecall play, but when the brain is
in the play drive, because whenthe brain is in the play drive.
It's expressive.
There is a certain safety fromfeelings getting hurt.
(12:35):
It's a state of active rest.
The brain is optimized in theplay drive.
It is where everything goodunfolds.
It's a greenhouse for growth.
And that will be true ofteachers as well.
All their creativity will be intheir playfulness.
And if they can't figure outhow to be a teacher and how to
(12:55):
preserve their playfulness,they're in trouble.
And that's the bottom line.
And that's why I said we knowmore about what our cats.
And if they can't figure outhow to be a teacher and how to
preserve their playfulness,they're in trouble.
And that's the bottom line andthat's why I said we know more
about our cats.
If our cat has had a trauma,how do we know?
When we get our cat back?
Speaker 1 (13:07):
When they're playful again, it's the same with us.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (13:10):
It's the same with us.
And so we shouldn't be thinkingof play, we should be thinking
of playfulness.
And playfulness is when thebrain is in the play drive, as
opposed to in one of the twooutcome drives.
In attachment, the outcome isproximity.
In achievement, the outcome isdesired results.
And so in one of the twooutcome and play is the
(13:34):
spontaneous drive you can't makeyourself playful, you can't
teach playfulness.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
You can't catch it, it is spontaneous.
You can't.
You know, I often totally.
Chris Colley (13:47):
I hear like teachers say oh, I'm not
creative, oh I have noimagination, I'm like well you
do.
Yeah, are you playing, you know?
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (13:54):
I mean, I guess that word playful is
really all for that, it's allabout the playfulness and when
your children are playful, whenthey're being playful, it
doesn't matter what it is Likeif they're old enough to play
with words, with wit, with irony, with paradox, like what is
irony anyway?
What is a?
Speaker 1 (14:13):
metaphor it's playing with concepts.
What is philosophy?
It's playing with ideas.
Now, when we teach these things, we're no longer.
We've lost the plot here.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (14:25):
We've lost the plot that when our
attachment needs are taken careof sufficiently, when there is
sufficient togetherness andwe're not facing threats to that
, we turn from creatures ofattachment to creatures of play.
And that is us, and that isn'tjust for kids, that's for us.
(14:47):
At our death's door is, how dowe face our mortality If we
can't face it?
We can't face it directly,we're not meant to.
We have to face it in song, ina lament, we have to face it in
poetry, we have to face it inone step removed.
That's what generates.
All the poetry in the world isfacing these things.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
We have to do it in the play mode.
There's no way we could do itdirectly.
Chris Colley (15:17):
Amazing and I'm kind of like starting to make.
Some things are starting toconnect a bit, and I mean a lot
of what we try to teach our kidssaw skill wise.
You know how to collaborate,how to share, how to critically
think, how to you know we haveall these great skills that we
want to bestow upon our youngestgenerations.
(15:38):
Is it simply just kind of againgetting out of their way?
You can't teach resilienceright Like you have to be in
environments.
You could maybe to practice it.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (15:50):
No, you can't, you can't.
No, you can't.
I mean the very idea of beingable to teach empathy, and if
you teach something, then youreinforce the skill that is made
as soon as you act in a caringway for personal benefit.
It's not empathy, it'snarcissism, it's selfishness.
You can't teach it.
You can't teach it no more thanyou can teach playfulness.
(16:14):
This is spontaneous life force,unfolding if conditions are
conducive.
Now we're full of paradoxes.
We use what children care aboutagainst them and then are
surprised when they don't careanymore.
But caring is at the heart ofempathy.
It's not taking somebody elseinto consideration.
(16:35):
The bully does that better thananybody else.
Right, right.
And that's why they stopped Inscience.
They stopped doing all work onempathy because they found that
the ones who had the bestempathy were the bullies.
So they called it cold empathybecause they had made a huge
mistake.
Is it caring?
Is that the root of it?
So it's 10 years at the root ofit.
(17:00):
So it's 10 years.
It took how many years whenscience forsake self-esteem
because they realized that theycouldn't go anywhere that way,
that those that were in denialhad the best self-esteem of
anyone?
We're all insecure, and if afour-year-old doesn't know that
bad things can happen to thosethat they love, then there's a
problem with that Right.
And then when we say andpathologize that there's a
(17:20):
problem with that Right.
So we're trying to teach things.
We're trying to teach an appletree how to how to bear apples.
Chris Colley (17:29):
Wow, I get that.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (17:30):
Yeah, that not only not only is it futile,
it is dangerous, because youknow nowadays, when you go to a
store and you get an apple, howmany apples taste like apples
anymore, because the wholeindustry has gone to create a
strawberry that we can call astrawberry, looks like a
(17:53):
strawberry, an apple that it'sprematurely to get, fruit that
they can get to the store andthat can last.
Does it nurture you?
No, no.
So it's even worse is when youget an act that takes the place
of the real thing, and that'sall.
Learning theorists know how todo is to get us to act right,
(18:15):
but we, when we act nice, whenwe feel mean, we call it
hypocrisy.
Yet with children, we call itself-regulation and we call it
empathy.
Right interesting.
Chris Colley (18:30):
Wow, you're making so many things trigger here,
gordon.
I'm like I I know that we won'thave enough time.
Well, we need like 20 more ofthese.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
That's why I said I could write a couple of more
books if I could write them.
I'm a terrible slow writer.
That's why I had to get GabberMate to help me with Hold On To
your Kids.
Chris Colley (18:49):
Which is an amazing book, such a legacy to
that book as well, and the truththat it speaks.
I mean, I go back to it oftenjust to remind myself.
But if we could, I want to kindof take some of this mindset
that we're talking about and putit in a reality situation of
what's going on now.
We have the school coming back,teachers getting new loads of
(19:12):
kids.
Yes, what are the key thingsthat teachers should be aware of
at the start of these schoolyears where their awareness of
attachment theories andrelationship building?
Can you fill in maybe someadvice for teachers on the
things to be aware of or tipsthat you might offer up?
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (19:32):
Well, it's keeping it in mind, and that's
the hard part of it.
It's invisible.
It's keeping it in mind andthat's the hard part of it.
It's invisible is that whenwe're dealing with other people
as a therapist, it took me along time to realize that I
really was only an agent ofattachment, and I'm talking in
terms of adults and marriagetherapy as well.
I'm helping individuals hold onto each other, find
togetherness in a world that'sfalling apart.
(19:53):
I'm helping individuals grievethe lack of it, but, where
possible, trying to be able tohelp them hold on.
That's, first and foremost, theissue.
If they don't, children arefilled with attachment.
Alarm, which we call anxiety,agitation, attachment problems,
cutting and burning these areall things to be able to reduce
(20:13):
it.
So we have all kinds ofbehavioral problems.
Adrenaline seeking, anxiety isthe biggest one.
It's the one there thatindicate that children are
alarmed and they're becomingdefended against it, and so the
bottom issue is that we'refalling apart as a society,
(20:42):
society.
It takes nature six years ofoptimal development to be able
to cultivate the ability in achild to hold on when apart.
They have to have given theirheart to their mom, dad,
grandparent, so that that meansthat it can transcend death.
They have to now start sharingall that is within their heart
so they feel known from insideout, because they're beginning
to identify with their insidesrather than their outsides.
(21:03):
That's part of the identitythat takes a long time of
development.
Most adolescents today are onlyat the second level of all
about sameness.
If you can't be with, then atleast you can be like, and that
is a great polarization that ishappening around the globe.
Why?
Because they're not in lovingrelationships, because they
haven't given their heart tosomebody.
(21:25):
If a five-year-old hasn't giventheir heart to mommy and daddy
or to the teacher or whoeversubstitutes for it, they're in
trouble and they're going to befull of anxiety.
If a child, because it hasn'tbeen safe, has moved to the
alpha mode and is controllingand bossy and prescriptive, we
think such a child is moreindependent, because we realize
(21:47):
that no, this isn't independence.
This is a child who is tryingto stay on top of his world, who
is controlling.
The problem is you can't makeyourself safe, so their anxiety
escalates and they developeating disorders because you
can't be in control of your ownfood.
What do we do?
We try to teach childrenself-care.
Who should be taking care ofthem, us Right Putting them into
(22:12):
this.
So what am I trying to do as ateacher if I'm involved in it,
even as a psychologist to do asa teacher, if I'm involved in it
, even as a psychologist, if I'minvolved in it, if I have any
profession outside of that?
Natural cascading care thing isthe way nature is meant to grow
us up and to connect us.
(22:33):
If I'm involved, if parents arefarming out their kids to be
raised, and I'm involved in thatendeavor from the outside, then
my number one responsibility isto be able to to keep
relational relationship in mind,helping them, you know, be able
to look for to, you know, tobridge the divide, to collect
(22:56):
the kids, to get their eyes,their smiles, their nods, to
build relationships, and thatthis needs to be with adults,
not with other kids, becausethat is not how care is
delivered.
Care is delivered inhierarchical attachments and so
not in terms of siblings.
When they attach to each other,they get locked out of the care
(23:19):
their parents and grandparentshave for them.
You know, just like if starsrevolved around each other.
Well, it's really obvious inthe universe, because if planets
revolved around each other,they'd die Like they'd crash
into each other, and that's whathappens with our kids are all
revolving around each other andit's disastrous because care
(23:40):
doesn't get through, and whencare doesn't get through, we
have mental health problemsgoing through the roof.
Chris Colley (23:46):
Right, which we're seeing I guess it brings me to
this question is hold on to yourchildren, onto your kids.
Sorry, I mean, you put that outa long time ago and it almost
it seems like a differentenvironment that we are in now.
Yes, how do you see, does thatmessage still resonate today,
like more than ever that's whatI was going to ask More than
(24:07):
ever.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (24:08):
I, I, I was so concerned about how slow I
was.
I.
I wrote the book in about about1999 and it was way too big,
about 240,000 words, and Ithought, oh my goodness,
everybody's going to discoverthis.
And there was a little bit ofpride in me that wanted to be
credited with being able to, youknow, say, hey, wait, something
(24:31):
is happening, you know here,and I shouldn't have been
concerned First of all.
That's why I went hunting forGabber, because Gabber's a
really quick writer, right, andI said help, I need help.
Because he was one of mystudents taking my parenting
courses.
I said help, and so he helpedme, and of course he's such a
good writer and now you knowit's such a great help he helped
(24:55):
me get it out.
It didn't get out until 2004,.
So he helped me get it out.
It didn't get out until 2004,.
But that was one year beforeFacebook, before social media,
right.
But it's even more importantnow, because now we're seeing
(25:15):
all the symptoms of childrenbeing pulled out of orbit from
those who are meant to take careof them.
And we're seeing all of thosesymptoms that are there,
including all kinds of mentalhealth problems, addictions with
digital devices, with socialmedia and so on.
No, this is the thing is, ifteachers remember only this one
thing is the child needs adultsin his life who care for them.
(25:38):
And for that care to getthrough, the child needs to be
attached to them.
It's like the umbilical cordyou can't get it through if the
umbilical cord isn't there.
So what is my job?
My job is to work at attachmentand let attachment work for me
and for the child.
It will work for me because thechild will naturally attend to
me, want to be good for me, wantto do what I want them to do,
(26:00):
so I'll have more influence inthat child.
It will open their mind.
Now Socrates himself said indefense when he was being
criticized, according to legend,that is on his Socratic method.
Well, I couldn't teach him.
He didn't love me Like if thatwas his defense.
He knew well that attachment wasa bottom line and then we think
(26:20):
it's our way of teaching, wethink it's a curriculum.
No, no Again, a child can learnfrom the worst teacher if
they're attached to the teacher.
Chris Colley (26:30):
Right right.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (26:31):
Yeah, attachment does all the work.
We have to retreat.
We're not retreating.
We're teaching harder.
We're teaching more.
We're not retreating.
We're teaching harder.
We're teaching more.
We're teaching longer hours.
We've got to retreat.
Why is it that allthree-year-olds seem to be
gifted and then they becomestupid when they come to school?
Chris Colley (26:51):
Yes, Well said, very well said.
I mean the ideas and theconcepts that you brought in are
so relevant still today and, Ithink, even more so needed
because of all of the otherthings competing.
I mean back then it was justpeers, but now throw in social
media, throw in digital devices,throw in phones and like we're
(27:15):
battling more and more, it seems, to create those relationships
because we have tons ofcompetition.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (27:21):
Yes, we do, we do, and that's the basic
thing.
You know, what was the problemwith television?
That wasn't the problem withtelevision, it's what it
interfered with.
Chris Colley (27:30):
Exactly yeah.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (27:32):
And what is the problem with false play,
with outcome-based play?
The little bit won't hurt, butit's what it interferes with,
and it interferes with therelationships that a child needs
.
It interferes with the playthey need.
And so, in the research on thescience of play, the kind of
play that children need is itwas consistent for generations
(27:54):
and now it's taking a nosedive.
And this is huge, because whenwe lose the play we need, we,
you know again, none of us cangrow ourselves up.
That's not with.
You can't teach maturity.
None of us can grow ourselvesup you, you don't.
And and this is only somethingnature has been able to do we
(28:16):
can't make the geranium grow, wecan't make the apple tree grow,
we can't make a garden grow.
We can be midwives.
But that's only providing theconditions that are conducive.
We have never cracked life andthat is a spontaneous unfolding
of potential.
That is what it is.
Teachers are to be a holder forthis providing the conditions
(28:38):
that are conducive for nature todo its work.
What are its conditions?
Attachment and play.
So, as things disintegrate inour society, we've got to
retreat to those things, to beable to focus on cultivating a
relationship, the child'srelationship, helping them hold
on to those who have the care todeliver to them and helping
(29:01):
them form the connection with us, the attachment that they want
to be with us, a bit like usbelong to us, so that we can
take care of their relationalneeds and then nature can do
what it does best grow them up.
Chris Colley (29:18):
Amazing.
Well, gordon, this has beenabsolutely mind blowing for me,
and I know the listeners aregoing to feel similar.
I wish we had more time tocontinue this, but I want to
respect our time.
Again, thanks so much fortaking some time out of your day
and sharing your knowledge withus, and I'm sure these words
ring true to educators and theselittle, just helpful reminders,
(29:41):
as you said.
A tip, think about it.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Just keep it in mind.
That's all you need to do is.
Dr. Gordon Neufeld (29:50):
It's simpler than you think.
You know it's simpler than youthink.
But you need to retreat, notpush ahead.
You need to retreat to thebasics, to the elements.
If we retreated instead ofpushed ahead, we'd find the
answers would be there.
Well, it's my pleasure, as youcan tell.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
I've got less to say about these things.
Chris Colley (30:09):
I hope one day you come and hop on again and we
continue this amazingconversation.
It's been a real pleasure, sothank you.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Thank you, Bye.
Chris.
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