October 21, 2025 • 30 mins
The ground is shifting under education, and pretending otherwise won’t help. We sit down with Dr. Sabba Quidwai to map a path that begins with people, not platforms: clarifying strengths, building agency, and using AI as a true teammate with defined responsibilities. Saba shares how a rocky start to her teaching career during the recession led to a powerful reframe—know your value, share your work, and let curiosity drive serendipity—and why that same mindset can help teachers and students thrive right now.
We dig into practical moves any educator can make this week. Start by naming strengths with tools like Sparketype and CliftonStrengths, then collect real stories that prove those strengths in action. Use the SPARK interview method to ground projects in human needs and let AI provide kismet—fresh ideas you can vet, refine, and ship. We talk about why agency, not rote “thinking,” is the real gap; how to assign AI first drafts and scaffolds while humans lead with insight and relationships; and why watching major AI keynotes can keep you oriented without chasing every shiny tool.
Context matters too. Policy and culture shape what’s possible, and examples like Finland show what happens when a society truly invests in people. Still, the direction is clear: as models approach average human performance on more tasks, the human premium rises on empathy, judgment, storytelling, and collaboration. If we raise the bar with authentic demos and honest expectations, we can replace fear with focus and help learners design lives they value. Subscribe, share with a colleague, and leave a review with the one strength you’ll double down on next week.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Colley (00:03):
Welcome everyone back to another episode of Shift
Ed Podcast, uh where we kind oflook at the changing landscape
of education.
Um not only here in Quebec, butbut worldwide.
Um we tend to ebb and flow inthe same waves uh as most other
countries in in the world, uhhow education is uh uh deployed
(00:25):
and and and sent to us.
Um I have Dr.
Sabba Quidwai with me today,um, who uh has this wonderful
book called Designing Schools,How to Design Thinking That
Makes You Irreplaceable in theAge of AI frames.
I just wanted to say thank youfirst off, Saba, for for
accepting to come join me hereon this cast and uh to share
(00:48):
some of your insight and yourmindset about education in AI.
Sabba Quidwai (00:53):
Of course.
No, I'm so honored to be here.
And I'm really grateful topeople like you who are kind of
you know at advancing theseconversations and you know, just
being that catalyst in theircommunities.
Chris Colley (01:03):
Awesome.
Well, thank you very much.
I I mean it's it's a pleasurefor me.
I get to talk to all theseamazing people.
And so, Sabba, as we kind ofdive into our conversation, I
tend to like to start off with alittle foundational kind of
recall of yours as to what weresome of those moments that kind
of brought you to where you aretoday?
(01:23):
Um dealing with, you know, uhredesigning school ideas, the AI
integration.
Like I know you started as a asa as a school teacher.
Um what what were some of thethe moments along that timeline
that brought you to where youare today?
Sabba Quidwai (01:40):
I think it was really the beginning of my
career as an educator.
You know, I graduated, I wouldsay, in like 2007.
And, you know, just a couplemonths later, it was the
recession.
And, you know, so with my firstjob, basically came my first
layoff notice.
And so it was a very um likejarring start almost to like my
career.
It's like, you know, you start,you get a job, especially as a
teacher.
You're like, oh, I'm gonnateach at the school for like X
(02:01):
number of years, you decorateyour classroom, you like get to
know your students, like you doall these things.
And then, you know, just acouple months later, it was
like, sorry, you're not gonna behere anymore.
And so it was just a very umunexpected start to my career.
And, you know, that would kindof be the story of my career for
the next few years.
And it really wasn't until Igot settled about four or five
years later, actually, like Ithink year three, I was like,
(02:22):
okay, I think I need to likechange professions.
This is like not working out.
And I was looking at marketingand I came across a book called
Lynchpin by Seth Godin.
And in that book, basically, hetalked a lot about how the
world of work has changed.
It's not anymore just about goto school, get good grades, and
you know, everything's likehappily ever after.
It's like you really have toknow your value proposition,
(02:42):
like what value do you bring tothe table?
But not just know yourstrengths, know your value, also
how are you gonna articulatethat?
What problems have you solved?
What how will you contribute toan organization?
Like, and what is that, Iguess, more purpose-driven work
that drives you and like thatintersection of like what do you
get at?
What can you do?
And like also where are yougonna make money?
And so I was like, oh, okay,like I can do that.
And so when I started reframingjust sort of like myself and I
(03:04):
started thinking about things ina different way, um, it was it
was crazy how overnight almostthat after reading Lynchpin, I
never actually applied foranother position ever again.
It was like after that, I wasalways being recruited because
another really big part of SethGodin's work is to share your
work, right?
To talk about your process, todocument what you're doing.
And so I started blogging and Istarted at that time, you know,
(03:26):
X now, but Twitter back thenwas the really big place for
educators.
And I was just like writing andwriting and sharing like just
my own reflections and things Iwas doing.
And so I got recruited by byUSC, later on Apple.
And and it just was one ofthose moments where I was like,
wow, like there's so many thingsthat people can teach you.
Like when I look back now at mytrajectory, every single thing
(03:48):
that's happened could have beentaught to me.
I don't call it an accident.
Like I think it's very muchlike serendipity, like really
driven by just curiosity andleaning into like, wait a
minute, there's a problem here.
Like, how can I solve thisproblem?
Like, what can we do?
And you realize like thatcuriosity is just such a
timeless skill.
And it's something that reallycan be taught to people at a
younger age.
And I think that really, it'sreally more than my experience
(04:10):
as an educator.
It's my experience as a studentand a graduate, and then having
to navigate that world of workbecause I always say 2007, while
a ton of us were like, youknow, struggling in the economy
with the recession and whatnot,Steve Jobs launched the iPhone.
2008 was when the app storecame out.
So we were going through likesuch a huge inflection point in
just how we work, communicate,live.
Like today, to think to evencall the app economy like an
(04:32):
inflection point or somethingrevolutionary sounds crazy
because there's not a day thatgoes by where people don't use
apps for something, but thatwasn't true before 2008, you
know?
And so having lived throughthose changes at that time, I
think I there's a lot there thatyou can apply to what's
happening now with AI.
And that's kind of what I'vedone like the last 10 years, I
guess, is think more deeplyabout that.
Chris Colley (04:52):
Absolutely.
And and as I was mentioning, Imean, your podcast really gets
into that frame of mind and thatmindset of how can we get it
working for us and how can weembrace it rather than having
you know this disillusion as towhat it might be.
Um, instead of seeing what itcan do, playing with it,
(05:14):
experimenting with it, andletting that lead the way rather
than preconceived you know,sentences or one-offs that
you've heard, like I willreplace you one day, like
teachers if you don't adapt, youknow, like those kinds of like
just seem to be more of a scaretactic rather than uh this is
important for our generationscoming for us to know so that
(05:37):
they know um the nuts and boltsand what's under that hood.
But I think before I dive intothat, because I love your idea
of designing schools, or I wouldsay redesigning schools.
We know the cycle of education,the expectations anyway, and it
they've been like this forcenturies.
(05:58):
Uh some would even argue longerthan centuries, where we think
that going to school, fillingour brains up, getting a job,
live happily ever after, that'sthe flow of life.
We know nowadays that is notthe case at all.
We have graduation rates herein Quebec anyway, under 50%.
And those that go to C Jepperuniversities or like college
(06:21):
level, university level, don'teven complete them, right?
Again, it's about half thatcomplete them.
So it's a half of a half thatwe're putting all this energy
and all of our system attentioninto.
How can we change that flowwhere the student is no longer
just a vessel to be filled withknowledge and content, but that
(06:44):
we develop, as you were saying,the skills and developing how do
I manage in this world that isever evolving?
What do I need to do?
Where where do you start withthat explanation or that
shifting of mindsets that weneed to start doing pretty
dramatically, I say, becausetechnology, like you said, I
(07:07):
mean, 20 less than 20 years ago,iPhones were nowhere to be had,
no cells, no nothing.
And then all of a sudden, poof,and everything changes, yet we
don't change the way we teachour kids.
Sabba Quidwai (07:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
I feel like one of the firstplaces I always like to start is
um really beginning to leaninto and knowing your strengths.
I think, you know, if you aregoing to navigate uncertainty,
ambiguity, and things that canbe very intimidating, like I
feel like right now is for a lotof people, one of the most
important things to have islanguage to be able to speak to
(07:42):
yourself about why there is aplace for you amidst this
change, even though it mightfeel like it's giving you a lot
of anxiety, might feel like it'smaking you nervous, or maybe
it's making you really excited.
You know, that this applies toboth ends of the spectrum.
You have to have language to beable to talk to yourself about
where you see your role, howyou're gonna navigate this, and
and and why this is anopportunity for you or how
(08:02):
you're gonna navigate thischallenge.
And so one of the things thatI'm a really big fan of is
really helping people lean intotheir strengths.
I don't think we spend enoughtime.
Like I feel like, you know, Ialways say for every
conversation you have about AI,you should be having double the
number of conversations aboutpeople, their skills, and their
strengths.
And so I think most of us, likeif you ask people, for example,
like one of my favoritequestions that we do in a
(08:23):
workshop is we say, you know,um, share the top three
strengths or skills that youbring to the table.
Like, why is this organizationlucky to have you, but they're
lucky to have me because of one,two, three.
And a lot of people are verylike nervous about saying that.
A lot of people don't have thelanguage to articulate that
about themselves.
And so I think this is a veryimportant starting place.
And there's always tworesources I like to share.
(08:45):
Number one is the Spark Type byJonathan Fields.
It's completely free.
And what I love about the sparktype compared to like a Myers
Briggs or some of the other onesis it talks about what
energizes you.
Like this is what drives you,motivates you, gets you up in
the morning.
This is the kind of work youdo, whether you've been paid or
not paid.
And to me, that's not onlylanguage to speak to yourself in
(09:06):
about your strengths, it's alsodirection for where you might
find yourself in today's world.
So this is the first one.
The second one I really like.
Um, this is a paid one, though.
It's the Gallup Cliftonstrengths.
And again, I like these becausenot only do they talk about
your strengths, but they alsotalk about your blind spots.
So, like, yes, this is a reallygood quality you have, but you
should look out for this thingjust in case, you know, because
(09:27):
this could happen too.
And so these kinds of thingshelp us become more self-aware.
And this allows us to now havea different lens with which we
see different kinds of emerging,whether it's technologies or
just honestly like life ingeneral, relationships, no
matter what you're navigating.
So, this is my first one.
Another activity we like to dois we like to have um
individuals interview peopleabout um what do you think my
(09:49):
top three strengths are, right?
So you might go to a professor,you might go to a teacher, you
might go to your mom or dad or asibling or a friend or a family
member or a mentor.
Like, you know, there's so manydifferent people around us, a
coach, there's so many differentpeople, but pick three people,
go to each of those people andbe like, what do you think my
top three skills and strengthsare?
And for each one, don't justtake a list of like three skills
or strengths, but ask them totell you a story about why.
(10:11):
All of these things reallyreinforce our confidence and our
belief in ourselves so thatwhen we look at like, okay, this
is changing, this is changing,but wait a minute, somebody told
me I'm really good at this,this, and this.
That is how you basically umthis is one of the first things,
steps that I think you can beable to take.
Then once you have thatinformation, then it's a matter
of like, what kinds of projectscan you be a part of that are
(10:34):
going to become evidence for youof those skills and strengths
that you have?
So obviously, like, you know,within schools, this is really
the direction we would like tosee kids building things,
creating things, identifyingproblems and being able to lean
into those strengths, but not inisolation, right?
This is sort of like, you know,whether you're adults working
on a team, whether you're kidsworking on a project, being able
to be like, I'm good at this,you're good at this, you're good
(10:56):
at this.
How are we going to cometogether and collaborate to
build something thatindividually we couldn't have
done on our own?
And this is actually veryimportant because now we have a
new like alien group of peoplein the mix with AIs.
And this is the AI'sresponsibility as well on the
team.
I'm good at this, this, andthis.
And so now sometimes this iswhere the friction comes.
(11:17):
A lot of the things that our AItools are good at are the
things that we think we shouldbe doing, right?
Well, I should be making theslide deck.
I should be writing this, Ishould be doing this.
I don't know.
Should you?
Should you be the person maybewho's becoming more aware about
the environment and peopleyou're designing for, leaning
more into their needs, theirinterests, their challenges, so
that you can go back to thewriting teammate with the AI
(11:38):
tool and be like, hey, here'sall this information, all this
data.
Let's make some sense out ofthis, right?
Now I'm gonna refine it becauseI'm the one with the insight.
The AI is not interacting withpeople, I'm interacting with
people.
That's my strength, that's myskill I'm bringing to the table.
You have another skill overhere.
So I think at a time when um,you know, AI tools are are
really leaning into these areour strengths, and this is what
(11:59):
we bring to the table.
This is what we do.
I think as people, we have todouble down on what are those
things that make us unique.
And I think a lot of that goesback to number one, which is
what are your strengths, whatare your skills, what are those
unique things you bring to thetable?
Chris Colley (12:10):
Because we also love how you bring to that human
aspect, you know, it's so key.
Particularly at the start ofyears, we talk to teachers a lot
about the relationship buildingthat you need to have.
In those, you're create, youknow, you're creating and
developing these skills that nomachine is gonna replace.
Like they just won't, you know.
(12:31):
Like I always told my kids whenI was teaching, like a computer
will never tell you it lovesyou, you know, like don't
anticipate anything like that,however much you love it.
Um it still has its part in ourand there's no humanity really
behind it.
It all comes from us.
Sabba Quidwai (12:48):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
So these are just like nicestarting places.
Then from there, there's somany other spaces you can go,
but these are I think twoimportant starting places.
Chris Colley (12:56):
Totally.
Yeah, I love too that thecreativity, the resilience, the
teamwork, um, you know, abilityto inspire others, to
collaborate.
Like we don't give kids enoughpractice in these, and I think
all skills need practice todevelop.
Um which brings me in Walks AIis that it is a skill that we're
(13:19):
developing with our interactionwith AI.
Um could you put a bit of meaton the bone of that statement?
That without our understandingand our creativity and our our
humanity almost, AI will just beuh what people might perceive
as like a first layer is like,oh, it's for cheating, oh, it's
(13:40):
for cutting corners, oh it'slike in the event when you don't
understand something, you'll goto what you've heard about it.
But bringing your humanity intoit actually develops what it
can do much more.
Can you can you speak to that abit, Saba?
Sabba Quidwai (13:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think, you know, I thinktoday, so like we just I we keep
saying today, so we should saywhat today is.
So today is October 6th, it's aMonday, and um, you know, just
about like a couple hours ago,it was OpenAI's uh dev day.
Um, and I was just listening tothe keynote this morning.
And I think, you know, one ofthe challenges I think we see is
that obviously the tools costmoney, right?
(14:17):
And if you're gonna try to trya bunch of the different tools,
I mean you're looking easily ata couple hundred dollars like
every single month, right?
Which is which is hard for formany, many people.
And so I always say, like, ifyou're not going to um, if if
you're not able to sort of likepurchase the tools, or even if
you can purchase them, but youdon't have time to be playing
with them all day long andexperimenting and whatnot, um,
you you should really bewatching and paying attention to
these keynotes because I thinkthese keynotes and these talks
(14:40):
that these companies do give youenough direction and language
for where the technology isgoing.
And you know, it's about likean hour of your time, like
every, you know, couple of weeksor so, but you you you can have
your pulse on on what'shappening.
Okay.
So, for example, today, if wewere looking at OpenAI's Dev
Day, one of the things I oftenshare in like education that I
see is another challenge is Ithink people are too worried
(15:01):
about thinking, right?
Like they're worried, oh, noone's gonna be thinking anymore,
nobody's gonna be do that.
Right now, I think you couldargue even pre-Chat GPT, it's
not about thinking that's theproblem, it's agency, right?
It's it's do are you able toact?
Are you able to create?
Are you able to build?
Are you able to speak?
And when you look at thesethings, like people who can act,
speak, people who have highagency are people who are
(15:24):
thinking all the time, right?
They're constantly connectingdots, they're constantly looking
at what I can create, what canI contribute?
I see something here, I'm gonnado something about it, right?
And this all takes thinking.
Now you you need to go back andlike learn things for what
you're gonna do and figurethings out and whatnot.
So you're constantly thinking.
Whereas just because somebody'swriting a few pages down does
not mean that they are likeactively thinking or
(15:45):
contributing or really buildingthat skill set.
And that's why a lot of timeswhen you ask people like, oh,
tell me more in person, theycan't speak, right?
Sometimes we can write essayafter essay after essay, but
okay, explain that to me inanother way or connect this to
something else, and they can'tdo that.
And so this to me is somethingthat I think is a bit of a
mismatch in what we're lookingat right now.
And the reason I say this isbecause agency, right?
(16:07):
The ability to do, act, makedecisions, and whatnot is the
number one goal for these AItools.
It's not just to have them haveintelligence and have them help
you write an essay.
So I think what you're talkingabout with that challenge of
people not having awareness ofwhat the technology is capable
of, is you then live in a falsereality, right?
Now that sense of urgency isn'tthere for you about what we
(16:28):
need to adapt, what we need todo.
And also you don't know thathow much support you have,
right?
I mean, that the tools areincredibly powerful from a
design perspective.
Yes, there are many challengeswith them sometimes in other
areas, but I mean, I always saylike you shouldn't be using them
like a search engine, anyways.
Like it's not Google.
You know, you should have yourown way of doing research and
knowledge curation and thingslike that.
But from a design and acreation perspective, these
(16:50):
tools, in my opinion, are betterthan people.
I think, you know, and I thinkwhen we do compare, I think when
people are comparing thetechnology, they're not
comparing it to the averageperson.
They're comparing it to thebest of the best of the best
person in the world, which islike maybe like your top 10% of
people, right?
So if you want to say AI is acompetitor to the top 10%,
probably not.
But is it a competitor to maybe70% of people?
(17:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, you can walk into, Imean, you just look at look at
look around us, right?
I'm three years into thistechnology, and people are still
like, what should we do?
Right?
Like, oh, I don't know how tofigure out the essay.
I don't know how to figure outXYZ.
But you can ask Chad GPT and itcan come up with that answer
for you in a 10 minutes or so.
But the the challenge though,it can't execute, it can't go to
your class and interact withyour kids, at least not yet,
(17:31):
right?
But I think we are starting tosee with this advancement of
agents, I think, you know,learning people realize how
much.
I mean, there was just a reportthat came out by OpenAI a
couple of weeks ago, um, lookingat consumer use.
So, not like workplace use.
That was a separate report, butconsumer use and learning with
the tools is one of the numberone things people want to do,
not just learning about likealgebra, but how to do my taxes,
(17:54):
like practical things peopleare looking for.
Chris Colley (17:56):
Well, the stat was too, it's a great stat.
73% use it for non-workrelated.
And that's up from 53% a yearearlier.
So like 20% added on tonon-work related just in a year.
It's crazy.
Sabba Quidwai (18:10):
Like it's yeah, it really is.
So I think it's starting toembed itself.
Yeah, yeah.
Both the use of the tools, butI think also looking at the
data.
And you know, we kind of alwaystell people if you're somebody
who operates with this mindsetthat the tools are gonna be
better than us, you know, youreally you really feel that
sense of urgency and you doubledown, you're learning more,
playing more, like just figuringmore out about, you know,
(18:31):
what's gonna happen to my roleand like what what is my place
gonna be and what opportunity isout there for me, too.
But if if you're the kind ofperson who is like, no, this is
all hype.
No, I'm just gonna keep doingmy five-paragraph essay and I
don't want to change anythingand thinking is what matters
more than taking my flip phoneaway.
Chris Colley (18:48):
No way.
Sabba Quidwai (18:49):
Yeah, exactly.
I feel like that person is sovulnerable because the person
who believes that yes, it'sgonna be, you know, this
completely different way ofworking and living, the only bad
thing that happens to thatperson is they double down and
became a better version ofthemselves.
But the person who believesthis is hype doesn't become the
best version of themselves.
(19:09):
AI becomes this amazingversion, and now you're just
left so vulnerable.
And I think what's reallydifferent about this technology
compared to others, it's notgonna wait for you.
Like I always say, if youdeployed Chromebooks in 2014 or
2020, I don't know that it madethat much of a difference.
The strategy was kind ofsimilar, like it might have
gotten easier and whatnot.
But with AI, a six-year gap, Ipersonally don't think most
(19:33):
people will be able to recoverand catch up to that kind of uh
thing.
Even if I look at Chad GPT in2023 compared to what it is
today in just two years, Idon't, I think it's a very hard
thing to learn now and wrap yourhead around.
Chris Colley (19:46):
Totally, totally.
I mean, I just did a workshopwhere we're looking at creating
simulations in AI.
Um, we were mainly lookingthrough the lens of science, but
the teacher it was withconsultants and they're very um
nervous as to what to put in.
And once they saw the results,you could see the creativity
(20:08):
start to mount and mount andmount.
I think it takes a taste, orthat they find the right use for
it, you know, and that theythey latch onto it.
I mean, there's so many waysthat you can do that that it's
hard to I mean, it'soverwhelming in a way, right?
Because it is so new andadvancing a click that we've
(20:28):
never seen in technology anyway.
The turnovers just really fast.
How do you how do you getteachers to kind of lower the
barriers a little bit to be ableto open themselves to shifting
their mindsets towards AI alittle bit anyway?
What how do you how do you dothat in a practical way?
Sabba Quidwai (20:48):
So yeah, I mean, I can tell you kind of what we
do in 60 minutes and like it hasyet to fail.
Um I think number one, like Isaid, getting getting clear on
the AI landscape.
This I see every single place Igo.
Um and I really want to creditGoogle Gemini here because if it
had not been for Gemini givingtheir platform out to everybody,
I don't think I could do what Ido and show people as easily as
(21:10):
I do.
Because it's one thing for meto sit there and demo these
tools to you.
It's another for me to be ableto put it in your hand and be
like, you tell me what you wantand you go do it.
This is a night and day.
And prior to Google Gemini,there wasn't really any place
somebody could go to experiencethe full depth of a foundation
model without having to paymoney.
And so it just was really hard.
(21:31):
Um, so I so what we start with,first of all, is let's get a
clear view on what thistechnology is and what the goal
is.
And I think for a lot ofpeople, I've noticed they're
very intimidated or afraid totake that kind of story to
people because they think it'sgoing to scare them.
What I personally have found isthe more upfront you are and
(21:52):
the more you raise the bar andthe and the the more sort of not
challenging the narrative, butthe more authentic you are about
what's going on, the morereceptive people are.
When you try to dumb down thestory, then that's where people
are just like, wait a minute,what is going on?
What is this and whatnot?
And of course, who wouldn't dothat?
Right.
If my only experience of AI wasmagic school or brisk, where
(22:12):
I'm pushing a bunch of randombuttons and getting like average
content, I too would be like,what in the world is going on?
What kind of technology is thisthat people think is gonna
change the world, right?
Of course that's gonna be yourimpression of it.
You haven't had a realexperience.
So that's the first thing we dois we get really clear that,
like, look, this is not aboutthinking, this is not about
intelligence, this is aboutagency.
(22:32):
And there's a lot of data thatshows how low agency is in
people.
So to live in a world wherewe're watching agency skyrocket
in machines, but agency fall inpeople, this is a very dangerous
world to be building and sortof like living in.
So that's sort of the firstpiece that we clarify what's
actually going on.
Then the next thing we do is weput them directly into an
experience using um uh I have aframework called Spark.
(22:55):
And Spark is basically just anempathy interview.
So we ask people, what's yoursituation?
Tell me what you do, who youare, what's your problem?
Give me something that likeliterally is a problem or
barrier for you right now.
What's your aspiration?
If everything was to go reallywell and that problem was
solved, what would it look like?
What would happen?
And what result would you wantto see that would that would
show you, oh my God, wow, likemy problem is being solved or
(23:18):
we're moving in a positivedirection.
The last one is K.
This is what we call kismeth.
And this is basically like theserendipity of the universe.
Like, okay, I have no idea whatthe answers is.
Like, I don't know how to solvethis or create this.
You know, put it into your AItool, give me three to four
ideas for what I can do.
So we're not asking for ananswer.
We're asking for someinspiration for some ideas that
we as people can vet.
(23:40):
So it's this back and forth,back and forth, back and forth.
And there's one very key thingto this exercise, and that is
that interview that we do in thebeginning is done either by
walking and talking, it's donevia like a like a conversation
with people.
Obviously, anybody can useSpark and do it individually.
But the point of having peoplenot use technology and just
(24:00):
interview each other and thencome back to the technology and
then go back to talking to eachother is at the end we ask them
if I had to show you in thislesson, in this short exercise,
what thinking looked like, whathuman collaboration looked like,
we could pinpoint it, right?
Can you do that with yourlesson?
And so this is just soeye-opening for people.
Like, whoa, first of all, likewe're still talking and we still
(24:23):
like had a part.
And then also it's not justgiving us an answer that we're
just blindly taking.
Like, not only do you have tohave critical thinking and
evaluating the responses, butyou've also got to continue the
conversation.
The AI just came up with theidea.
There's 50 more things thatneed to happen after that first
idea is kind of vetted.
And so that really is soeye-opening for people.
And then, and then the piece inthe beginning that we talk
(24:43):
about with agency and AI is nota tool, it's your teammate, not
one teammate, many, many, manyteammates that are gonna join
your org.
It is so such a new um way ofthinking about the technology
for people that it completelyshifts their mindset.
And now they're in a bitdifferent space simply because
we brought the authentic versionof everything to them instead
of some like watered downversion of a technology that is
(25:06):
misrepresentative of what it is.
Chris Colley (25:08):
I love too that it it it begins with you.
You know, it's it's not aboutthe stuff and the this and the
that, it's about askingquestions that people can
obviously answer and then slowlyinfusing and then going back to
it again.
All right, let's go back to ourhumanity again.
Like, I love that that idea ofmixing those two together so
(25:30):
that there are it blurred, youknow, the lines are a bit
blurred without without you knownot showing anything.
Um my final question, this hasbeen so fascinating.
I mean, uh, we could I couldprobably ask you questions until
late, late.
Um, but I want to respect ourtime, Sab.
I I again thanks so much.
I really appreciate yourinsight and your passion for
(25:53):
this.
Um where where do we go fromhere that you see?
Where does school rethinking AII know it's a loaded question.
I mean, where do you start tomake sense of all of that
looking five to ten years downthe road?
Sabba Quidwai (26:11):
Yeah, you know, I always sort of say this is very
contextual to where you live,right?
So, like if you're in theUnited States or you know,
Canada or Dubai or Singapore oryou know, uh like Zimbabwe or
Tanzania, like I mean, itdoesn't matter where you are,
like your context really,really, really matters.
And this is one of the thingsthat I really look to the
(26:31):
Scandinavian countries to,because one of the things that
the Scandinavian people trulyhave is a real value and a real
prioritization of people.
Everybody says we value people,human skills, blah, blah, blah.
But when you look at laws,policies, these things, it's not
(26:52):
even remotely reflective.
Uh I've only been to Finlandfrom the different Scandinavian
countries, but it's one place,right?
When you go in, you know, whenFinland was celebrating their
100-year anniversary, they theyre- they uh built a library
called UDI Library.
And UDI Library and thegovernment building are at an
equal level.
And the reason they're equal isbecause government and
(27:12):
education, they believe, go handin hand.
And one of the reasons theyreally believe that is people in
that country really believethat people are their ultimate
human, like capital.
Like, like our people are it.
Like we got to investeverything in them because our
people are it.
And so, you know, I know a lotof people like, you know, look
to Finland, like, oh, look howmuch trust they have in this and
that.
But the trust doesn't what camefirst.
(27:33):
What came first was theirfundamental core belief in that
people are our most importantresource and we must do
everything we can for them nomatter what.
So I think where you livereally, really, really matters.
Um, and this is also just to goon a little tangent, why I
think being knowledgeable aboutthe technology is really
important because today we canmove anywhere, we can live
anywhere, like it's not alwayseasy, but those options are
(27:56):
available to you if you're like,wait a minute, I don't know if
I see a future in XYZ for whereI am.
I think I might be better offhere.
Now is the time to startplanning and making those
decisions because you've got acouple of years to do so versus
waiting five years, being stuckin something, and then it's
very, very, very difficult to dothose kinds of things and make
those moves then.
So I would say number one,context really matters for what
(28:17):
the future is going to look likeand what it's going to look
like for people within thatspace.
Second, I think people shouldget really comfortable with the
idea that AI tools are going tobe as good as them.
Um, I I think if you just lookat, you know, like I said,
what's happened in the last liketwo, three years, and you also
look at like even just today'sdev day, it is very clear the
goal is to have computers actand think like humans.
(28:38):
And so leaning into what do Ido that is not replaceable?
And just because something'sreplaceable doesn't mean that
that's automatically gone.
There's a real human premium onthings that people will want
from people in spaces by andwith people.
And so I think just not livingin like a false reality, like I
always believe like everyoneshould operate with like like
(29:00):
expect, what do they say?
Like expect the best, but hopefor the worst.
I think that is like a reallyimportant mindset to have in
this moment because again, inthe end, the only person who's
gonna win no matter whatscenario is you.
But the person who doesn't havethat mindset, you you're
running a you're running a 50-50bet.
And that 50% that you lose,that that's it's just gonna be
miserable.
And so I think when you movestep by step by step, doesn't
(29:22):
mean you have to go all in onAI, doesn't mean you have to
like become an AI hype person,doesn't mean you have to like,
you know, buy every single tool,but it means that you should
start building a knowledge base,that you should be watching
these keynotes, you shouldunderstand what people's goals
are in these companies andunderstand the relationship
between policy and technologyand whatever industry it is that
(29:43):
you are in.
unknown (29:44):
Amazing.
Chris Colley (29:45):
Well, I mean, knowledge is power and knowledge
is power.
Sabba Quidwai (29:48):
That's education, right?
Nelson Mandela.
That's why you said, right?
Education is the most powerfulweapon that we have in the
world.
And so that's what I tellpeople too.
This is not about liking AI orhating AI.
This is just knowledge is powerto make decisions.
For whatever life it is youwant to design.
Chris Colley (30:02):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Well, I feel that yourknowledge that you've shared
with today has made us allsmarter.
Saba.
Sabba Quidwai (30:08):
Thank you for having me.
Chris Colley (30:09):
It's been a real treat.
Go check out Saba's website,uh, designingschools.org.
I'll put it in the uh blog postand in the comment section.
Um, and I'll also link up tothose two resources that you
suggested.
I think those are great.
I like the spark.
Um this has been a great, greattime.
I hope we can do this again oneday, Saba.
I mean, I just feel like we'regetting going here, but um, I
(30:34):
really appreciate your insightand your thoughtfulness.
Sabba Quidwai (30:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you for having me.
Welcome everyone back to another episode of Shift
Ed Podcast, uh where we kind oflook at the changing landscape
of education.
Um not only here in Quebec, butbut worldwide.
Um we tend to ebb and flow inthe same waves uh as most other
countries in in the world, uhhow education is uh uh deployed
(00:25):
and and and sent to us.
Um I have Dr.
Sabba Quidwai with me today,um, who uh has this wonderful
book called Designing Schools,How to Design Thinking That
Makes You Irreplaceable in theAge of AI frames.
I just wanted to say thank youfirst off, Saba, for for
accepting to come join me hereon this cast and uh to share
(00:48):
some of your insight and yourmindset about education in AI.
Sabba Quidwai (00:53):
Of course.
No, I'm so honored to be here.
And I'm really grateful topeople like you who are kind of
you know at advancing theseconversations and you know, just
being that catalyst in theircommunities.
Chris Colley (01:03):
Awesome.
Well, thank you very much.
I I mean it's it's a pleasurefor me.
I get to talk to all theseamazing people.
And so, Sabba, as we kind ofdive into our conversation, I
tend to like to start off with alittle foundational kind of
recall of yours as to what weresome of those moments that kind
of brought you to where you aretoday?
(01:23):
Um dealing with, you know, uhredesigning school ideas, the AI
integration.
Like I know you started as a asa as a school teacher.
Um what what were some of thethe moments along that timeline
that brought you to where youare today?
Sabba Quidwai (01:40):
I think it was really the beginning of my
career as an educator.
You know, I graduated, I wouldsay, in like 2007.
And, you know, just a couplemonths later, it was the
recession.
And, you know, so with my firstjob, basically came my first
layoff notice.
And so it was a very um likejarring start almost to like my
career.
It's like, you know, you start,you get a job, especially as a
teacher.
You're like, oh, I'm gonnateach at the school for like X
(02:01):
number of years, you decorateyour classroom, you like get to
know your students, like you doall these things.
And then, you know, just acouple months later, it was
like, sorry, you're not gonna behere anymore.
And so it was just a very umunexpected start to my career.
And, you know, that would kindof be the story of my career for
the next few years.
And it really wasn't until Igot settled about four or five
years later, actually, like Ithink year three, I was like,
(02:22):
okay, I think I need to likechange professions.
This is like not working out.
And I was looking at marketingand I came across a book called
Lynchpin by Seth Godin.
And in that book, basically, hetalked a lot about how the
world of work has changed.
It's not anymore just about goto school, get good grades, and
you know, everything's likehappily ever after.
It's like you really have toknow your value proposition,
(02:42):
like what value do you bring tothe table?
But not just know yourstrengths, know your value, also
how are you gonna articulatethat?
What problems have you solved?
What how will you contribute toan organization?
Like, and what is that, Iguess, more purpose-driven work
that drives you and like thatintersection of like what do you
get at?
What can you do?
And like also where are yougonna make money?
And so I was like, oh, okay,like I can do that.
And so when I started reframingjust sort of like myself and I
(03:04):
started thinking about things ina different way, um, it was it
was crazy how overnight almostthat after reading Lynchpin, I
never actually applied foranother position ever again.
It was like after that, I wasalways being recruited because
another really big part of SethGodin's work is to share your
work, right?
To talk about your process, todocument what you're doing.
And so I started blogging and Istarted at that time, you know,
(03:26):
X now, but Twitter back thenwas the really big place for
educators.
And I was just like writing andwriting and sharing like just
my own reflections and things Iwas doing.
And so I got recruited by byUSC, later on Apple.
And and it just was one ofthose moments where I was like,
wow, like there's so many thingsthat people can teach you.
Like when I look back now at mytrajectory, every single thing
(03:48):
that's happened could have beentaught to me.
I don't call it an accident.
Like I think it's very muchlike serendipity, like really
driven by just curiosity andleaning into like, wait a
minute, there's a problem here.
Like, how can I solve thisproblem?
Like, what can we do?
And you realize like thatcuriosity is just such a
timeless skill.
And it's something that reallycan be taught to people at a
younger age.
And I think that really, it'sreally more than my experience
(04:10):
as an educator.
It's my experience as a studentand a graduate, and then having
to navigate that world of workbecause I always say 2007, while
a ton of us were like, youknow, struggling in the economy
with the recession and whatnot,Steve Jobs launched the iPhone.
2008 was when the app storecame out.
So we were going through likesuch a huge inflection point in
just how we work, communicate,live.
Like today, to think to evencall the app economy like an
(04:32):
inflection point or somethingrevolutionary sounds crazy
because there's not a day thatgoes by where people don't use
apps for something, but thatwasn't true before 2008, you
know?
And so having lived throughthose changes at that time, I
think I there's a lot there thatyou can apply to what's
happening now with AI.
And that's kind of what I'vedone like the last 10 years, I
guess, is think more deeplyabout that.
Chris Colley (04:52):
Absolutely.
And and as I was mentioning, Imean, your podcast really gets
into that frame of mind and thatmindset of how can we get it
working for us and how can weembrace it rather than having
you know this disillusion as towhat it might be.
Um, instead of seeing what itcan do, playing with it,
(05:14):
experimenting with it, andletting that lead the way rather
than preconceived you know,sentences or one-offs that
you've heard, like I willreplace you one day, like
teachers if you don't adapt, youknow, like those kinds of like
just seem to be more of a scaretactic rather than uh this is
important for our generationscoming for us to know so that
(05:37):
they know um the nuts and boltsand what's under that hood.
But I think before I dive intothat, because I love your idea
of designing schools, or I wouldsay redesigning schools.
We know the cycle of education,the expectations anyway, and it
they've been like this forcenturies.
(05:58):
Uh some would even argue longerthan centuries, where we think
that going to school, fillingour brains up, getting a job,
live happily ever after, that'sthe flow of life.
We know nowadays that is notthe case at all.
We have graduation rates herein Quebec anyway, under 50%.
And those that go to C Jepperuniversities or like college
(06:21):
level, university level, don'teven complete them, right?
Again, it's about half thatcomplete them.
So it's a half of a half thatwe're putting all this energy
and all of our system attentioninto.
How can we change that flowwhere the student is no longer
just a vessel to be filled withknowledge and content, but that
(06:44):
we develop, as you were saying,the skills and developing how do
I manage in this world that isever evolving?
What do I need to do?
Where where do you start withthat explanation or that
shifting of mindsets that weneed to start doing pretty
dramatically, I say, becausetechnology, like you said, I
(07:07):
mean, 20 less than 20 years ago,iPhones were nowhere to be had,
no cells, no nothing.
And then all of a sudden, poof,and everything changes, yet we
don't change the way we teachour kids.
Sabba Quidwai (07:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
I feel like one of the firstplaces I always like to start is
um really beginning to leaninto and knowing your strengths.
I think, you know, if you aregoing to navigate uncertainty,
ambiguity, and things that canbe very intimidating, like I
feel like right now is for a lotof people, one of the most
important things to have islanguage to be able to speak to
(07:42):
yourself about why there is aplace for you amidst this
change, even though it mightfeel like it's giving you a lot
of anxiety, might feel like it'smaking you nervous, or maybe
it's making you really excited.
You know, that this applies toboth ends of the spectrum.
You have to have language to beable to talk to yourself about
where you see your role, howyou're gonna navigate this, and
and and why this is anopportunity for you or how
(08:02):
you're gonna navigate thischallenge.
And so one of the things thatI'm a really big fan of is
really helping people lean intotheir strengths.
I don't think we spend enoughtime.
Like I feel like, you know, Ialways say for every
conversation you have about AI,you should be having double the
number of conversations aboutpeople, their skills, and their
strengths.
And so I think most of us, likeif you ask people, for example,
like one of my favoritequestions that we do in a
(08:23):
workshop is we say, you know,um, share the top three
strengths or skills that youbring to the table.
Like, why is this organizationlucky to have you, but they're
lucky to have me because of one,two, three.
And a lot of people are verylike nervous about saying that.
A lot of people don't have thelanguage to articulate that
about themselves.
And so I think this is a veryimportant starting place.
And there's always tworesources I like to share.
(08:45):
Number one is the Spark Type byJonathan Fields.
It's completely free.
And what I love about the sparktype compared to like a Myers
Briggs or some of the other onesis it talks about what
energizes you.
Like this is what drives you,motivates you, gets you up in
the morning.
This is the kind of work youdo, whether you've been paid or
not paid.
And to me, that's not onlylanguage to speak to yourself in
(09:06):
about your strengths, it's alsodirection for where you might
find yourself in today's world.
So this is the first one.
The second one I really like.
Um, this is a paid one, though.
It's the Gallup Cliftonstrengths.
And again, I like these becausenot only do they talk about
your strengths, but they alsotalk about your blind spots.
So, like, yes, this is a reallygood quality you have, but you
should look out for this thingjust in case, you know, because
(09:27):
this could happen too.
And so these kinds of thingshelp us become more self-aware.
And this allows us to now havea different lens with which we
see different kinds of emerging,whether it's technologies or
just honestly like life ingeneral, relationships, no
matter what you're navigating.
So, this is my first one.
Another activity we like to dois we like to have um
individuals interview peopleabout um what do you think my
(09:49):
top three strengths are, right?
So you might go to a professor,you might go to a teacher, you
might go to your mom or dad or asibling or a friend or a family
member or a mentor.
Like, you know, there's so manydifferent people around us, a
coach, there's so many differentpeople, but pick three people,
go to each of those people andbe like, what do you think my
top three skills and strengthsare?
And for each one, don't justtake a list of like three skills
or strengths, but ask them totell you a story about why.
(10:11):
All of these things reallyreinforce our confidence and our
belief in ourselves so thatwhen we look at like, okay, this
is changing, this is changing,but wait a minute, somebody told
me I'm really good at this,this, and this.
That is how you basically umthis is one of the first things,
steps that I think you can beable to take.
Then once you have thatinformation, then it's a matter
of like, what kinds of projectscan you be a part of that are
(10:34):
going to become evidence for youof those skills and strengths
that you have?
So obviously, like, you know,within schools, this is really
the direction we would like tosee kids building things,
creating things, identifyingproblems and being able to lean
into those strengths, but not inisolation, right?
This is sort of like, you know,whether you're adults working
on a team, whether you're kidsworking on a project, being able
to be like, I'm good at this,you're good at this, you're good
(10:56):
at this.
How are we going to cometogether and collaborate to
build something thatindividually we couldn't have
done on our own?
And this is actually veryimportant because now we have a
new like alien group of peoplein the mix with AIs.
And this is the AI'sresponsibility as well on the
team.
I'm good at this, this, andthis.
And so now sometimes this iswhere the friction comes.
(11:17):
A lot of the things that our AItools are good at are the
things that we think we shouldbe doing, right?
Well, I should be making theslide deck.
I should be writing this, Ishould be doing this.
I don't know.
Should you?
Should you be the person maybewho's becoming more aware about
the environment and peopleyou're designing for, leaning
more into their needs, theirinterests, their challenges, so
that you can go back to thewriting teammate with the AI
(11:38):
tool and be like, hey, here'sall this information, all this
data.
Let's make some sense out ofthis, right?
Now I'm gonna refine it becauseI'm the one with the insight.
The AI is not interacting withpeople, I'm interacting with
people.
That's my strength, that's myskill I'm bringing to the table.
You have another skill overhere.
So I think at a time when um,you know, AI tools are are
really leaning into these areour strengths, and this is what
(11:59):
we bring to the table.
This is what we do.
I think as people, we have todouble down on what are those
things that make us unique.
And I think a lot of that goesback to number one, which is
what are your strengths, whatare your skills, what are those
unique things you bring to thetable?
Chris Colley (12:10):
Because we also love how you bring to that human
aspect, you know, it's so key.
Particularly at the start ofyears, we talk to teachers a lot
about the relationship buildingthat you need to have.
In those, you're create, youknow, you're creating and
developing these skills that nomachine is gonna replace.
Like they just won't, you know.
(12:31):
Like I always told my kids whenI was teaching, like a computer
will never tell you it lovesyou, you know, like don't
anticipate anything like that,however much you love it.
Um it still has its part in ourand there's no humanity really
behind it.
It all comes from us.
Sabba Quidwai (12:48):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
So these are just like nicestarting places.
Then from there, there's somany other spaces you can go,
but these are I think twoimportant starting places.
Chris Colley (12:56):
Totally.
Yeah, I love too that thecreativity, the resilience, the
teamwork, um, you know, abilityto inspire others, to
collaborate.
Like we don't give kids enoughpractice in these, and I think
all skills need practice todevelop.
Um which brings me in Walks AIis that it is a skill that we're
(13:19):
developing with our interactionwith AI.
Um could you put a bit of meaton the bone of that statement?
That without our understandingand our creativity and our our
humanity almost, AI will just beuh what people might perceive
as like a first layer is like,oh, it's for cheating, oh, it's
(13:40):
for cutting corners, oh it'slike in the event when you don't
understand something, you'll goto what you've heard about it.
But bringing your humanity intoit actually develops what it
can do much more.
Can you can you speak to that abit, Saba?
Sabba Quidwai (13:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think, you know, I thinktoday, so like we just I we keep
saying today, so we should saywhat today is.
So today is October 6th, it's aMonday, and um, you know, just
about like a couple hours ago,it was OpenAI's uh dev day.
Um, and I was just listening tothe keynote this morning.
And I think, you know, one ofthe challenges I think we see is
that obviously the tools costmoney, right?
(14:17):
And if you're gonna try to trya bunch of the different tools,
I mean you're looking easily ata couple hundred dollars like
every single month, right?
Which is which is hard for formany, many people.
And so I always say, like, ifyou're not going to um, if if
you're not able to sort of likepurchase the tools, or even if
you can purchase them, but youdon't have time to be playing
with them all day long andexperimenting and whatnot, um,
you you should really bewatching and paying attention to
these keynotes because I thinkthese keynotes and these talks
(14:40):
that these companies do give youenough direction and language
for where the technology isgoing.
And you know, it's about likean hour of your time, like
every, you know, couple of weeksor so, but you you you can have
your pulse on on what'shappening.
Okay.
So, for example, today, if wewere looking at OpenAI's Dev
Day, one of the things I oftenshare in like education that I
see is another challenge is Ithink people are too worried
(15:01):
about thinking, right?
Like they're worried, oh, noone's gonna be thinking anymore,
nobody's gonna be do that.
Right now, I think you couldargue even pre-Chat GPT, it's
not about thinking that's theproblem, it's agency, right?
It's it's do are you able toact?
Are you able to create?
Are you able to build?
Are you able to speak?
And when you look at thesethings, like people who can act,
speak, people who have highagency are people who are
(15:24):
thinking all the time, right?
They're constantly connectingdots, they're constantly looking
at what I can create, what canI contribute?
I see something here, I'm gonnado something about it, right?
And this all takes thinking.
Now you you need to go back andlike learn things for what
you're gonna do and figurethings out and whatnot.
So you're constantly thinking.
Whereas just because somebody'swriting a few pages down does
not mean that they are likeactively thinking or
(15:45):
contributing or really buildingthat skill set.
And that's why a lot of timeswhen you ask people like, oh,
tell me more in person, theycan't speak, right?
Sometimes we can write essayafter essay after essay, but
okay, explain that to me inanother way or connect this to
something else, and they can'tdo that.
And so this to me is somethingthat I think is a bit of a
mismatch in what we're lookingat right now.
And the reason I say this isbecause agency, right?
(16:07):
The ability to do, act, makedecisions, and whatnot is the
number one goal for these AItools.
It's not just to have them haveintelligence and have them help
you write an essay.
So I think what you're talkingabout with that challenge of
people not having awareness ofwhat the technology is capable
of, is you then live in a falsereality, right?
Now that sense of urgency isn'tthere for you about what we
(16:28):
need to adapt, what we need todo.
And also you don't know thathow much support you have,
right?
I mean, that the tools areincredibly powerful from a
design perspective.
Yes, there are many challengeswith them sometimes in other
areas, but I mean, I always saylike you shouldn't be using them
like a search engine, anyways.
Like it's not Google.
You know, you should have yourown way of doing research and
knowledge curation and thingslike that.
But from a design and acreation perspective, these
(16:50):
tools, in my opinion, are betterthan people.
I think, you know, and I thinkwhen we do compare, I think when
people are comparing thetechnology, they're not
comparing it to the averageperson.
They're comparing it to thebest of the best of the best
person in the world, which islike maybe like your top 10% of
people, right?
So if you want to say AI is acompetitor to the top 10%,
probably not.
But is it a competitor to maybe70% of people?
(17:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, you can walk into, Imean, you just look at look at
look around us, right?
I'm three years into thistechnology, and people are still
like, what should we do?
Right?
Like, oh, I don't know how tofigure out the essay.
I don't know how to figure outXYZ.
But you can ask Chad GPT and itcan come up with that answer
for you in a 10 minutes or so.
But the the challenge though,it can't execute, it can't go to
your class and interact withyour kids, at least not yet,
(17:31):
right?
But I think we are starting tosee with this advancement of
agents, I think, you know,learning people realize how
much.
I mean, there was just a reportthat came out by OpenAI a
couple of weeks ago, um, lookingat consumer use.
So, not like workplace use.
That was a separate report, butconsumer use and learning with
the tools is one of the numberone things people want to do,
not just learning about likealgebra, but how to do my taxes,
(17:54):
like practical things peopleare looking for.
Chris Colley (17:56):
Well, the stat was too, it's a great stat.
73% use it for non-workrelated.
And that's up from 53% a yearearlier.
So like 20% added on tonon-work related just in a year.
It's crazy.
Sabba Quidwai (18:10):
Like it's yeah, it really is.
So I think it's starting toembed itself.
Yeah, yeah.
Both the use of the tools, butI think also looking at the
data.
And you know, we kind of alwaystell people if you're somebody
who operates with this mindsetthat the tools are gonna be
better than us, you know, youreally you really feel that
sense of urgency and you doubledown, you're learning more,
playing more, like just figuringmore out about, you know,
(18:31):
what's gonna happen to my roleand like what what is my place
gonna be and what opportunity isout there for me, too.
But if if you're the kind ofperson who is like, no, this is
all hype.
No, I'm just gonna keep doingmy five-paragraph essay and I
don't want to change anythingand thinking is what matters
more than taking my flip phoneaway.
Chris Colley (18:48):
No way.
Sabba Quidwai (18:49):
Yeah, exactly.
I feel like that person is sovulnerable because the person
who believes that yes, it'sgonna be, you know, this
completely different way ofworking and living, the only bad
thing that happens to thatperson is they double down and
became a better version ofthemselves.
But the person who believesthis is hype doesn't become the
best version of themselves.
(19:09):
AI becomes this amazingversion, and now you're just
left so vulnerable.
And I think what's reallydifferent about this technology
compared to others, it's notgonna wait for you.
Like I always say, if youdeployed Chromebooks in 2014 or
2020, I don't know that it madethat much of a difference.
The strategy was kind ofsimilar, like it might have
gotten easier and whatnot.
But with AI, a six-year gap, Ipersonally don't think most
(19:33):
people will be able to recoverand catch up to that kind of uh
thing.
Even if I look at Chad GPT in2023 compared to what it is
today in just two years, Idon't, I think it's a very hard
thing to learn now and wrap yourhead around.
Chris Colley (19:46):
Totally, totally.
I mean, I just did a workshopwhere we're looking at creating
simulations in AI.
Um, we were mainly lookingthrough the lens of science, but
the teacher it was withconsultants and they're very um
nervous as to what to put in.
And once they saw the results,you could see the creativity
(20:08):
start to mount and mount andmount.
I think it takes a taste, orthat they find the right use for
it, you know, and that theythey latch onto it.
I mean, there's so many waysthat you can do that that it's
hard to I mean, it'soverwhelming in a way, right?
Because it is so new andadvancing a click that we've
(20:28):
never seen in technology anyway.
The turnovers just really fast.
How do you how do you getteachers to kind of lower the
barriers a little bit to be ableto open themselves to shifting
their mindsets towards AI alittle bit anyway?
What how do you how do you dothat in a practical way?
Sabba Quidwai (20:48):
So yeah, I mean, I can tell you kind of what we
do in 60 minutes and like it hasyet to fail.
Um I think number one, like Isaid, getting getting clear on
the AI landscape.
This I see every single place Igo.
Um and I really want to creditGoogle Gemini here because if it
had not been for Gemini givingtheir platform out to everybody,
I don't think I could do what Ido and show people as easily as
(21:10):
I do.
Because it's one thing for meto sit there and demo these
tools to you.
It's another for me to be ableto put it in your hand and be
like, you tell me what you wantand you go do it.
This is a night and day.
And prior to Google Gemini,there wasn't really any place
somebody could go to experiencethe full depth of a foundation
model without having to paymoney.
And so it just was really hard.
(21:31):
Um, so I so what we start with,first of all, is let's get a
clear view on what thistechnology is and what the goal
is.
And I think for a lot ofpeople, I've noticed they're
very intimidated or afraid totake that kind of story to
people because they think it'sgoing to scare them.
What I personally have found isthe more upfront you are and
(21:52):
the more you raise the bar andthe and the the more sort of not
challenging the narrative, butthe more authentic you are about
what's going on, the morereceptive people are.
When you try to dumb down thestory, then that's where people
are just like, wait a minute,what is going on?
What is this and whatnot?
And of course, who wouldn't dothat?
Right.
If my only experience of AI wasmagic school or brisk, where
(22:12):
I'm pushing a bunch of randombuttons and getting like average
content, I too would be like,what in the world is going on?
What kind of technology is thisthat people think is gonna
change the world, right?
Of course that's gonna be yourimpression of it.
You haven't had a realexperience.
So that's the first thing we dois we get really clear that,
like, look, this is not aboutthinking, this is not about
intelligence, this is aboutagency.
(22:32):
And there's a lot of data thatshows how low agency is in
people.
So to live in a world wherewe're watching agency skyrocket
in machines, but agency fall inpeople, this is a very dangerous
world to be building and sortof like living in.
So that's sort of the firstpiece that we clarify what's
actually going on.
Then the next thing we do is weput them directly into an
experience using um uh I have aframework called Spark.
(22:55):
And Spark is basically just anempathy interview.
So we ask people, what's yoursituation?
Tell me what you do, who youare, what's your problem?
Give me something that likeliterally is a problem or
barrier for you right now.
What's your aspiration?
If everything was to go reallywell and that problem was
solved, what would it look like?
What would happen?
And what result would you wantto see that would that would
show you, oh my God, wow, likemy problem is being solved or
(23:18):
we're moving in a positivedirection.
The last one is K.
This is what we call kismeth.
And this is basically like theserendipity of the universe.
Like, okay, I have no idea whatthe answers is.
Like, I don't know how to solvethis or create this.
You know, put it into your AItool, give me three to four
ideas for what I can do.
So we're not asking for ananswer.
We're asking for someinspiration for some ideas that
we as people can vet.
(23:40):
So it's this back and forth,back and forth, back and forth.
And there's one very key thingto this exercise, and that is
that interview that we do in thebeginning is done either by
walking and talking, it's donevia like a like a conversation
with people.
Obviously, anybody can useSpark and do it individually.
But the point of having peoplenot use technology and just
(24:00):
interview each other and thencome back to the technology and
then go back to talking to eachother is at the end we ask them
if I had to show you in thislesson, in this short exercise,
what thinking looked like, whathuman collaboration looked like,
we could pinpoint it, right?
Can you do that with yourlesson?
And so this is just soeye-opening for people.
Like, whoa, first of all, likewe're still talking and we still
(24:23):
like had a part.
And then also it's not justgiving us an answer that we're
just blindly taking.
Like, not only do you have tohave critical thinking and
evaluating the responses, butyou've also got to continue the
conversation.
The AI just came up with theidea.
There's 50 more things thatneed to happen after that first
idea is kind of vetted.
And so that really is soeye-opening for people.
And then, and then the piece inthe beginning that we talk
(24:43):
about with agency and AI is nota tool, it's your teammate, not
one teammate, many, many, manyteammates that are gonna join
your org.
It is so such a new um way ofthinking about the technology
for people that it completelyshifts their mindset.
And now they're in a bitdifferent space simply because
we brought the authentic versionof everything to them instead
of some like watered downversion of a technology that is
(25:06):
misrepresentative of what it is.
Chris Colley (25:08):
I love too that it it it begins with you.
You know, it's it's not aboutthe stuff and the this and the
that, it's about askingquestions that people can
obviously answer and then slowlyinfusing and then going back to
it again.
All right, let's go back to ourhumanity again.
Like, I love that that idea ofmixing those two together so
(25:30):
that there are it blurred, youknow, the lines are a bit
blurred without without you knownot showing anything.
Um my final question, this hasbeen so fascinating.
I mean, uh, we could I couldprobably ask you questions until
late, late.
Um, but I want to respect ourtime, Sab.
I I again thanks so much.
I really appreciate yourinsight and your passion for
(25:53):
this.
Um where where do we go fromhere that you see?
Where does school rethinking AII know it's a loaded question.
I mean, where do you start tomake sense of all of that
looking five to ten years downthe road?
Sabba Quidwai (26:11):
Yeah, you know, I always sort of say this is very
contextual to where you live,right?
So, like if you're in theUnited States or you know,
Canada or Dubai or Singapore oryou know, uh like Zimbabwe or
Tanzania, like I mean, itdoesn't matter where you are,
like your context really,really, really matters.
And this is one of the thingsthat I really look to the
(26:31):
Scandinavian countries to,because one of the things that
the Scandinavian people trulyhave is a real value and a real
prioritization of people.
Everybody says we value people,human skills, blah, blah, blah.
But when you look at laws,policies, these things, it's not
(26:52):
even remotely reflective.
Uh I've only been to Finlandfrom the different Scandinavian
countries, but it's one place,right?
When you go in, you know, whenFinland was celebrating their
100-year anniversary, they theyre- they uh built a library
called UDI Library.
And UDI Library and thegovernment building are at an
equal level.
And the reason they're equal isbecause government and
(27:12):
education, they believe, go handin hand.
And one of the reasons theyreally believe that is people in
that country really believethat people are their ultimate
human, like capital.
Like, like our people are it.
Like we got to investeverything in them because our
people are it.
And so, you know, I know a lotof people like, you know, look
to Finland, like, oh, look howmuch trust they have in this and
that.
But the trust doesn't what camefirst.
(27:33):
What came first was theirfundamental core belief in that
people are our most importantresource and we must do
everything we can for them nomatter what.
So I think where you livereally, really, really matters.
Um, and this is also just to goon a little tangent, why I
think being knowledgeable aboutthe technology is really
important because today we canmove anywhere, we can live
anywhere, like it's not alwayseasy, but those options are
(27:56):
available to you if you're like,wait a minute, I don't know if
I see a future in XYZ for whereI am.
I think I might be better offhere.
Now is the time to startplanning and making those
decisions because you've got acouple of years to do so versus
waiting five years, being stuckin something, and then it's
very, very, very difficult to dothose kinds of things and make
those moves then.
So I would say number one,context really matters for what
(28:17):
the future is going to look likeand what it's going to look
like for people within thatspace.
Second, I think people shouldget really comfortable with the
idea that AI tools are going tobe as good as them.
Um, I I think if you just lookat, you know, like I said,
what's happened in the last liketwo, three years, and you also
look at like even just today'sdev day, it is very clear the
goal is to have computers actand think like humans.
(28:38):
And so leaning into what do Ido that is not replaceable?
And just because something'sreplaceable doesn't mean that
that's automatically gone.
There's a real human premium onthings that people will want
from people in spaces by andwith people.
And so I think just not livingin like a false reality, like I
always believe like everyoneshould operate with like like
(29:00):
expect, what do they say?
Like expect the best, but hopefor the worst.
I think that is like a reallyimportant mindset to have in
this moment because again, inthe end, the only person who's
gonna win no matter whatscenario is you.
But the person who doesn't havethat mindset, you you're
running a you're running a 50-50bet.
And that 50% that you lose,that that's it's just gonna be
miserable.
And so I think when you movestep by step by step, doesn't
(29:22):
mean you have to go all in onAI, doesn't mean you have to
like become an AI hype person,doesn't mean you have to like,
you know, buy every single tool,but it means that you should
start building a knowledge base,that you should be watching
these keynotes, you shouldunderstand what people's goals
are in these companies andunderstand the relationship
between policy and technologyand whatever industry it is that
(29:43):
you are in.
unknown (29:44):
Amazing.
Chris Colley (29:45):
Well, I mean, knowledge is power and knowledge
is power.
Sabba Quidwai (29:48):
That's education, right?
Nelson Mandela.
That's why you said, right?
Education is the most powerfulweapon that we have in the
world.
And so that's what I tellpeople too.
This is not about liking AI orhating AI.
This is just knowledge is powerto make decisions.
For whatever life it is youwant to design.
Chris Colley (30:02):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Well, I feel that yourknowledge that you've shared
with today has made us allsmarter.
Saba.
Sabba Quidwai (30:08):
Thank you for having me.
Chris Colley (30:09):
It's been a real treat.
Go check out Saba's website,uh, designingschools.org.
I'll put it in the uh blog postand in the comment section.
Um, and I'll also link up tothose two resources that you
suggested.
I think those are great.
I like the spark.
Um this has been a great, greattime.
I hope we can do this again oneday, Saba.
I mean, I just feel like we'regetting going here, but um, I
(30:34):
really appreciate your insightand your thoughtfulness.
Sabba Quidwai (30:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you for having me.
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