November 25, 2024 • 21 mins
Wayne Turmel sits down with Sara Daw, of The CFO Centre, to explore the nuances of remote and hybrid work from a C-Suite perspective. As a leader of a fully remote global company operating across 17 countries, Sara shares invaluable insights into overcoming challenges, fostering psychological ownership, and building meaningful relationships in distributed teams.
Sara also shares her experience leading a remote-first organization and her thoughts on how trust and flexibility can transform the workplace. Don't miss her practical advice on designing team dynamics and crafting jobs that employees love.
Key Takeaways
1. Navigate Financial Resistance to Remote Work: Learn how to address common concerns from funders and stakeholders about hybrid and remote work models, with actionable tips on demonstrating ROI and productivity.
2. Empower Teams with Job Crafting: Discover how giving employees the freedom to design aspects of their roles can boost engagement, flexibility, and accountability within remote teams.
3. Redefine Hybrid Work: Understand why a “one-size-fits-all” approach to hybrid work doesn’t work, and how to tailor policies to meet team and individual needs effectively.
4. Build Intentional Relationships in Remote Teams: Get practical advice on creating meaningful team connections, from scheduling regular in-person meetups to designing engaging virtual activities.
5. Foster Psychological Ownership: Explore how co-creation, clear communication, and shared goals can increase employee loyalty and investment in their roles—even in a fully remote environment.
6. Set Clear Boundaries for Availability: Master the art of balancing responsiveness with structured availability to maintain productivity and team trust in remote settings.
Timestamps
00:00 Introduction
02:04 Challenges and Misconceptions of Remote Work in the C-Suite
05:37 The Importance of Flexibility in Hybrid Work
08:20 Concept of Job Crafting
10:36 Challenges of Leading a Remote Team
14:24 The Need for Physical Gatherings
17:20 Building Psychological Ownership in Remote Teams
19:35 Conclusion and Key Takeaways
Related Episodes
Additional Resources
.css-j9qmi7{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-direction:row;-ms-flex-direction:row;flex-direction:row;font-weight:700;margin-bottom:1rem;margin-top:2.8rem;width:100%;-webkit-box-pack:start;-ms-flex-pack:start;-webkit-justify-content:start;justify-content:start;padding-left:5rem;}@media only screen and (max-width: 599px){.css-j9qmi7{padding-left:0;-webkit-box-pack:center;-ms-flex-pack:center;-webkit-justify-content:center;justify-content:center;}}.css-j9qmi7 svg{fill:#27292D;}.css-j9qmi7 .eagfbvw0{-webkit-align-items:center;-webkit-box-align:center;-ms-flex-align:center;align-items:center;color:#27292D;}
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Hi, everybody.
Welcome to the Long Distance
Worklife, the podcastdesigned to help you thrive, survive
and generally find your way in the crazyworld of remote and hybrid work.
I am Wayne Trammell.
We arm wrestle us today,but that means that
we have a really excellent interviewto share with you.
(00:31):
And I'm excitedto talk to Sara Daw from the CFO center.
And we are going to look at
some factors of remote workthat maybe we haven't before.
And, so I'm looking forward to that.
Let me introduce Sara Daw,who's joining us from the UK today.
Hi, Sarah.
Who are you and why do we care?
(00:53):
Hi there.
Thanks for having me, Wayne.
So my name is Sara Daw.
I am the group CEO of,a business called the CFO Centre.
And that's a businessthat provides fractional CFOs
to growing entrepreneurial businesses.
For those that don't need,don't want full time, version
and can't afford a full time version,but recognize they need the skill set.
(01:16):
It's a global business in 17 countries.
I've also written a bookabout the business model
that sits underneaththat called Strategy and Leadership.
And so that's how the accesseconomy meets the C-suite.
That's me.
Look at you with the subtitleand everything in there nicely.
Yeah.
Sarah, I was excited to talk to youfor a couple of reasons.
(01:38):
First of all, your company is fully remoteand has been
for a long time,so you've got a lot of experience there.
But one of the things and we'll get there,we'll talk about that for sure.
But one of the thingsthat we haven't done on this show
very much and it's not intentional,it just hasn't happened, is
(01:58):
we haven't spent a lot of time
talking about the C-suiteand in particular, the CFO.
And I know thatfor a lot of organizations,
the push back on remote work
or going hybrid or whatever,a lot of that pushback
comes from the shellwe lovingly call them the bean counters.
(02:20):
The people in charge of the money. Why?
From a
financial standpoint,what are some of the objections
or concerns that get raised when people
talk about wanting to do more remote work?
I think I think that's really interestingbecause I actually haven't,
(02:42):
come across that so much around it, coming
particularly from the CFOs,
that, that are measuring the return
in terms of the factthat they want people to go,
in the office and not beand not be hybrid or remote, but
I, I would have thought that,
(03:03):
obviously it'sgoing to be, around productivity.
I would have thoughtfrom the CFO perspective,
they're the people that are goingto be measuring output and,
they're going to be fully, on boardwith all of those concepts
and making sure that,the business is moving forward.
I mean, I've actually found,
(03:24):
the most pushback that we've come across
in terms of,
not being full time
and presenthas actually been from the funders.
So the
backers ofbusinesses, the private equity, businesses
they really wanted, someone satin an office measuring, and looking
(03:47):
after that financial investmentfull time and on site.
So I think that's where we've seenmost of the pushback is had me
I think quite frankly,it all comes down to the relationship.
It's all about relationships.
And if you can get the relationshipright, it for me,
I think you can prove that it does matterwhere you're sitting.
(04:08):
One last question on this,because I hear what you're saying
and I don't disagree with you,but how much does some cost?
The notion, we've got an office and nobodyis in it, and that makes leaders crazy.
Yeah. Yeah.
Like, oh, absolutely.
And actuallywe were one of those businesses
because we've always been remote.
(04:28):
And literally just before Covid,we took on an office space,
for central team members,so that we could have them in the office.
And that was sort of a few weeksbefore Covid.
And then it was empty for ages.
So I totally understand that.
I mean, if we invest,
if our businesses invested in space,then they are going to want to fill it.
(04:50):
I think now, post-Covid,
many businesses are realize that actually,
yes, it's a sunk cost,but it's also not necessarily the cost
that they need to bear anymore,at least not to the extent that before
Covid and actuallythey can have much smaller space,
and use the space more wisely for hybrid.
(05:11):
Obviouslythat means that only that only happens if,
you know, the managementand the executive are supportive
of remote and hybrid working,which some are and some aren't.
But we can get onto that in a moment.
But but you know, I agree.
I think we've moved away enough from Covidnow that the leases have,
you know, changed.
And we've had a few years where it'sit is possible to be more flexible
(05:35):
about whatwhat's an office space we've got.
Yeah.
So let's talk about thatflexibility in your mind.
We've been talking a lot on the showabout how hybrid work
isn't just some people are in the officeand some people not.
I mean, there's more to it than that.
In your mind,what is hybrid work at its best?
(05:58):
Yes. I
mean, I think, it's around flexibility.
I mean, the one thing that I hear
just time and againfrom every single set of,
workers, the knowledge workersI'm talking about that
can, work remotely,
every single time that I hearfrom surveys,
(06:20):
from anecdotes, from conversations,it's flexibility people want.
So I wanted to havethat shakes down is is sort of okay.
And I think it's different for differentindividuals, for different roles.
So different parts of the hierarchy.
And so the the big issue
(06:41):
that I see with hybridis that it's quite a complex problem.
It's a wicked problem.
Yet we're trying to solve itwith a very simplistic and blunt
instrument by saying it's two daysin and three days out, or vice versa,
and it just isn't that simple.
And it depends on the person.
Is that the role, etc.
and actually, I think a much better way.
(07:03):
I mean, I'm much more in favor of lettingthe, workers work it out for themselves.
So I'm in the camp of going down the,
self-managed teams approach to thisand saying,
okay, we've got to get this output done,not this.
You know, let's forget the inputs.
Let's get the output done.
(07:24):
How are we going to organize ourselvesas a team to do that?
What are we going to do together?
What do we need to be.
And where do we need to be to do that?
Do we need to be online?
Do we need to be, physically presentand will cover for each other,
when we need to,and people need more flexibility?
And I think the big benefit of thatis where trusting our teams
(07:47):
to work it out,they have the best information
at their fingertips to be able to do that,and then they move into job crafting,
and that gives them real purposeof meaning over their work.
And, and that element of controlaround it being flexible.
And then I think you see engagement go up.
(08:08):
You just use the
term which I have not heard before,and I think I know what it means,
but you know, in very small wordsand slowly explain to me job crafting.
Yeah.
So this is where individuals can designtheir jobs or elements of their job.
So I'm a I'm a big fan of setting outthe tramlines and the guardrails.
(08:33):
In you know,with, with your functional leader.
So the functional leader setting outthe parameters, the direction of travel.
But then so essentially the what,
of the job, but then leaving it up
to the individuals to figure out the, how,
letting themtell the management or their leaders
(08:55):
how they're going to do it and whatresources and support they need to do it.
So they are crafting
their jobto fit the requirements of the outputs,
and it's sort of up to themhow they do it.
When they do it, where they do it.
And they're all prompt tosometimes you have to be together as team,
sometimes you have to be availableon a phone, to talk to customers, whatever
(09:18):
it might be.
But we're very much
then you're giving the agents,you're you're giving your workers agency.
You're giving them control.
And those are in my opinion,and for my research,
those are the elements of,
being at workthat enable us to get real joy
and flow and meaning and purpose,which means we really enjoy our work.
(09:42):
And the thing is, you get quitea lot of that from going freelance.
And I'm saying
we can learn from the freelance worldand there's, you know, I don't see why
we can't put some of those parametersinto the employed world.
We've got an employment contractto support it.
But the way we work, we can do it.
You know, we can do it in this way, too.
And that's how I've run my teams,even when they've been employed
(10:06):
in, in, in, in the business,
I've let them get on with it and decidehow to get it done in the best way.
Well,
let's talk about that because
you have been, you know, with one
ill fated exception, remote
since the get go,since you started your company and
(10:27):
for you as the leader,
what has been the biggest challenge?
Let's start with the challengesand then we'll get to the fun stuff.
So there are challenges,there's no doubt about it.
And I think because we set up as remote.
And so we had, you know, in our business
we would have individual C-suiteprofessionals, CFOs,
(10:50):
in working,they would go work, fractionally.
So part time.
And that would meanthey were hybrid sole businesses.
So they would go one daya week, two days a month.
The internal team that we have
to supportthat we call that our central team.
We never had offices to start withbecause we saw it
as an extra cost and overheads thatwe just didn't really think we needed.
(11:14):
So we were always remote as a team,and we all work from home from the start.
And there are challengesbecause I don't forget,
we didn't have so muchtechnology back then either.
So yeah, so what we
what we used to do was be very deliberate
about what we were going to do
(11:36):
and what were the reasons.
So why we would need to come together.
But we made sure that we did,meet physically, regularly.
And when I say regularly,it might be once a month.
And we would get the whole businesstogether twice a year.
So in teams locally once a month.
(11:57):
And we made sure that we did,
things during that time
that were very much aroundrelationship building.
So we didn't, do mundane things.
We didn't come togetherand then just do our work together.
We've absolutely built relationshipand we were very, very focused on that.
(12:18):
So we would define activities,work activities, and we would design,
very deliberately our time togetherbecause it was so precious.
And that meant that
we when we were apart,we were in our flow doing our work.
And we would communicate by,you know, text or email in those days
and phone now it's it's so much easierbecause we've got,
(12:42):
all the video conferencing,which we didn't have back then.
We used Skype a lot,
in the,in the early days that was available.
So that was that was the plan.
And it was about making sure that,
we brought in the elementsof psychological ownership,
into the relationships that we built.
(13:04):
So my research shows that,
you know,we can feel ownership towards our jobs
and towards our organizations that we workwith by there being a value exchange.
So firstly, you know, it has to work.
You know, we need to be able to earn moneyand, and have a living.
And our business needs to get valueout of what we do.
(13:26):
So it needs to be a good value exchange.
There needs to beit needs to add to our identity.
So we need to feel goodabout being a member of X organization
and it needs to sayhelp build us up in some way,
in terms of adding to our status.
And then we need to have, a home,
(13:50):
which means we need to bewith like minded people.
And if you can build those things
into the relationship at work,
then you start to get feelingsof ownership
towards the role in the job,which can, you know, which can make
where you're sittingand who you're sitting with less relevant.
(14:13):
Because you've got those, other aspects
that sort of a scaffoldingto hold you in your role.
And there are certain thingsthat you can do to build that ownership.
Wow. And we'll talk about thatin a second.
You said something, you kind of glossed it
over, like everybody understands this,and I don't think they do.
(14:34):
But this notionthat if the team is working remotely,
there is still a if not a need,
certainlya desire to physically get together.
And that means, you know,you might not have an office,
but you're going to have to renta conference room
or you're going to have to payfor some travel.
(14:56):
And you'reI mean, you just have to do that.
Yes, as we did.
And a lot of organizationsthink, well, everybody works remote,
you know,that annual meeting might be enough.
And I think
depending on the organization,it might not be.
(15:18):
So I deliberately
but to the, to all company conferences
into the schedule per year,I didn't think one was enough.
And it took a while to catch all.
And I have to say,because don't forget, we were working,
our team were freelancers.
So, you know,I couldn't force these people to come.
(15:40):
But actually, over time,everyone really started
to see the value of it being twice a year.
And that was and and some people haveto travel for that and others for that.
But then the monthly get togethersin the local teams,
I think were hugely importantbecause you then get some intimacy
(16:02):
into the relationshipswith coworkers and team leaders.
And that's part of,building the psychological ownership.
So and you need to be ableto hang out to do that,
and you need to be able to do something.
So often it works in an informal setting.
So we might get together and, you know,
(16:23):
discuss the businessduring the day or part of the day.
But then we you, we do somethingvery much fun and different and social,
which is where you can hang out togetherand allow the relationships
to flourish,just through more casual conversations.
And that's really needed,I think really needed.
(16:43):
As we reached the end of our time,you mentioned that
there were some specific thingsthat you could do.
Will you?
Let's share a couple of thosewith our folks so they can play. Yes.
So a big one is making surethat that the parties involved
feel that they can,be have access to each other.
(17:03):
So you're accessible,approachable and available.
That's really important in,
remote circumstancesto build this psychological ownership.
Because if you feel
you can get hold of each other quicklyand you're going to be responsive
to each other, and it goes both ways.
If you want other peopleto be responsive to you,
you need to be responsive to that.
(17:23):
And that helps build relationshipsand not.
Just for not for nothing.
But in order for that to happen,there needs to be some
discussions and ground rules aboutwhen are you available and.
How do you absolutely people.
And that doesn't happenjust out of good intentions. No.
You have to be very goodat planning ahead.
I'm very good at communicatingwhen you are available,
(17:46):
when you aren't availableand what are the parameters.
So that's that's a really good point.
Also, another big one is co-creation.
So doing things together,even if it's done remotely.
Actually in the same way,investing ourselves
in activities with others.
(18:07):
And so the very nature is you have tocommunicate each other to do it,
but then there's an investmentin what you've created
for the organization, which again, bonds,
the individuals to the organizationand their coworkers.
So that's that's another big one.
And intimacy.
So it's about allowing time,whether that's online
(18:29):
or offline, but allowing timejust to get to know each other
and have those, those timeswhere you share,
you know, deliberately have sessionswhere you talk about,
you know, thingsthat about yourselves that you wouldn't
normally talk about in a work situation.
So allow those,
those informal sessions to happen.
(18:52):
And I think that's where coming togetherphysically does really help with those.
So those are the sorts of things
that help bond individualsto organizations and their coworkers,
even if they're not, you know, physicallyworking together in an office all day.
And I have to add, by the way, that often,
I think this is really important.
(19:14):
Often we go into an office,
and I'm sure you've heard this beforemany times you go to an office
and you don't really talk to anyoneanyway.
You just get on your screen and,do do your job.
I mean, that can happen in officeenvironments.
So being very deliberate
about the times when you're actually goingto build relationships,
be with others, I think you can dothat even if you're remote.
(19:35):
Sarah, thank you so much.
So much good stuffin this conversation, folks.
If you want to learn more about Sarah,we will have all kinds of links
and informationand the CFO center and her book
Strategy and Leadership as a service
on our home page.
Sarah,thank you so much for being with us.
(19:57):
I really appreciate your time today.
Thanks for having me.
I really enjoyed it.
And folks, if you are interested,
in visit long distance
leader.com,like and subscribe to the show.
You know how podcasts work.
It's embarrassing to have to keep begging,but we appreciate your support.
(20:25):
If you are interested in our new book,The Long Distance
Leader Revised Rules for RemarkableRemote and Hybrid Leadership,
now in its second editionafter six years and seven languages.
Stop by and long distance
workplace.com/ldl or Kevin
Eikenberry dot coms LDL and learn more.
(20:49):
If you have comments, suggestions, guest
ideas,vicious personal attacks stopped by,
you can connect with Marissaand or myself on LinkedIn.
Long distance worklife has a page on LinkedIn.
Or you can just email us at the email.
Addresses listed and that's it.
(21:14):
Thank you so much for joining us.
We hope that,this podcast gives you some ideas.
Some spark gets you thinking in new waysabout the way that we work today.
We will be backnext week with a Marissa episode.
And that's it. I'm Wayne Trammell.
Don't let the weasels get you down.
Hi, everybody.
Welcome to the Long Distance
Worklife, the podcastdesigned to help you thrive, survive
and generally find your way in the crazyworld of remote and hybrid work.
I am Wayne Trammell.
We arm wrestle us today,but that means that
we have a really excellent interviewto share with you.
(00:31):
And I'm excitedto talk to Sara Daw from the CFO center.
And we are going to look at
some factors of remote workthat maybe we haven't before.
And, so I'm looking forward to that.
Let me introduce Sara Daw,who's joining us from the UK today.
Hi, Sarah.
Who are you and why do we care?
(00:53):
Hi there.
Thanks for having me, Wayne.
So my name is Sara Daw.
I am the group CEO of,a business called the CFO Centre.
And that's a businessthat provides fractional CFOs
to growing entrepreneurial businesses.
For those that don't need,don't want full time, version
and can't afford a full time version,but recognize they need the skill set.
(01:16):
It's a global business in 17 countries.
I've also written a bookabout the business model
that sits underneaththat called Strategy and Leadership.
And so that's how the accesseconomy meets the C-suite.
That's me.
Look at you with the subtitleand everything in there nicely.
Yeah.
Sarah, I was excited to talk to youfor a couple of reasons.
(01:38):
First of all, your company is fully remoteand has been
for a long time,so you've got a lot of experience there.
But one of the things and we'll get there,we'll talk about that for sure.
But one of the thingsthat we haven't done on this show
very much and it's not intentional,it just hasn't happened, is
(01:58):
we haven't spent a lot of time
talking about the C-suiteand in particular, the CFO.
And I know thatfor a lot of organizations,
the push back on remote work
or going hybrid or whatever,a lot of that pushback
comes from the shellwe lovingly call them the bean counters.
(02:20):
The people in charge of the money. Why?
From a
financial standpoint,what are some of the objections
or concerns that get raised when people
talk about wanting to do more remote work?
I think I think that's really interestingbecause I actually haven't,
(02:42):
come across that so much around it, coming
particularly from the CFOs,
that, that are measuring the return
in terms of the factthat they want people to go,
in the office and not beand not be hybrid or remote, but
I, I would have thought that,
(03:03):
obviously it'sgoing to be, around productivity.
I would have thoughtfrom the CFO perspective,
they're the people that are goingto be measuring output and,
they're going to be fully, on boardwith all of those concepts
and making sure that,the business is moving forward.
I mean, I've actually found,
(03:24):
the most pushback that we've come across
in terms of,
not being full time
and presenthas actually been from the funders.
So the
backers ofbusinesses, the private equity, businesses
they really wanted, someone satin an office measuring, and looking
(03:47):
after that financial investmentfull time and on site.
So I think that's where we've seenmost of the pushback is had me
I think quite frankly,it all comes down to the relationship.
It's all about relationships.
And if you can get the relationshipright, it for me,
I think you can prove that it does matterwhere you're sitting.
(04:08):
One last question on this,because I hear what you're saying
and I don't disagree with you,but how much does some cost?
The notion, we've got an office and nobodyis in it, and that makes leaders crazy.
Yeah. Yeah.
Like, oh, absolutely.
And actuallywe were one of those businesses
because we've always been remote.
(04:28):
And literally just before Covid,we took on an office space,
for central team members,so that we could have them in the office.
And that was sort of a few weeksbefore Covid.
And then it was empty for ages.
So I totally understand that.
I mean, if we invest,
if our businesses invested in space,then they are going to want to fill it.
(04:50):
I think now, post-Covid,
many businesses are realize that actually,
yes, it's a sunk cost,but it's also not necessarily the cost
that they need to bear anymore,at least not to the extent that before
Covid and actuallythey can have much smaller space,
and use the space more wisely for hybrid.
(05:11):
Obviouslythat means that only that only happens if,
you know, the managementand the executive are supportive
of remote and hybrid working,which some are and some aren't.
But we can get onto that in a moment.
But but you know, I agree.
I think we've moved away enough from Covidnow that the leases have,
you know, changed.
And we've had a few years where it'sit is possible to be more flexible
(05:35):
about whatwhat's an office space we've got.
Yeah.
So let's talk about thatflexibility in your mind.
We've been talking a lot on the showabout how hybrid work
isn't just some people are in the officeand some people not.
I mean, there's more to it than that.
In your mind,what is hybrid work at its best?
(05:58):
Yes. I
mean, I think, it's around flexibility.
I mean, the one thing that I hear
just time and againfrom every single set of,
workers, the knowledge workersI'm talking about that
can, work remotely,
every single time that I hearfrom surveys,
(06:20):
from anecdotes, from conversations,it's flexibility people want.
So I wanted to havethat shakes down is is sort of okay.
And I think it's different for differentindividuals, for different roles.
So different parts of the hierarchy.
And so the the big issue
(06:41):
that I see with hybridis that it's quite a complex problem.
It's a wicked problem.
Yet we're trying to solve itwith a very simplistic and blunt
instrument by saying it's two daysin and three days out, or vice versa,
and it just isn't that simple.
And it depends on the person.
Is that the role, etc.
and actually, I think a much better way.
(07:03):
I mean, I'm much more in favor of lettingthe, workers work it out for themselves.
So I'm in the camp of going down the,
self-managed teams approach to thisand saying,
okay, we've got to get this output done,not this.
You know, let's forget the inputs.
Let's get the output done.
(07:24):
How are we going to organize ourselvesas a team to do that?
What are we going to do together?
What do we need to be.
And where do we need to be to do that?
Do we need to be online?
Do we need to be, physically presentand will cover for each other,
when we need to,and people need more flexibility?
And I think the big benefit of thatis where trusting our teams
(07:47):
to work it out,they have the best information
at their fingertips to be able to do that,and then they move into job crafting,
and that gives them real purposeof meaning over their work.
And, and that element of controlaround it being flexible.
And then I think you see engagement go up.
(08:08):
You just use the
term which I have not heard before,and I think I know what it means,
but you know, in very small wordsand slowly explain to me job crafting.
Yeah.
So this is where individuals can designtheir jobs or elements of their job.
So I'm a I'm a big fan of setting outthe tramlines and the guardrails.
(08:33):
In you know,with, with your functional leader.
So the functional leader setting outthe parameters, the direction of travel.
But then so essentially the what,
of the job, but then leaving it up
to the individuals to figure out the, how,
letting themtell the management or their leaders
(08:55):
how they're going to do it and whatresources and support they need to do it.
So they are crafting
their jobto fit the requirements of the outputs,
and it's sort of up to themhow they do it.
When they do it, where they do it.
And they're all prompt tosometimes you have to be together as team,
sometimes you have to be availableon a phone, to talk to customers, whatever
(09:18):
it might be.
But we're very much
then you're giving the agents,you're you're giving your workers agency.
You're giving them control.
And those are in my opinion,and for my research,
those are the elements of,
being at workthat enable us to get real joy
and flow and meaning and purpose,which means we really enjoy our work.
(09:42):
And the thing is, you get quitea lot of that from going freelance.
And I'm saying
we can learn from the freelance worldand there's, you know, I don't see why
we can't put some of those parametersinto the employed world.
We've got an employment contractto support it.
But the way we work, we can do it.
You know, we can do it in this way, too.
And that's how I've run my teams,even when they've been employed
(10:06):
in, in, in, in the business,
I've let them get on with it and decidehow to get it done in the best way.
Well,
let's talk about that because
you have been, you know, with one
ill fated exception, remote
since the get go,since you started your company and
(10:27):
for you as the leader,
what has been the biggest challenge?
Let's start with the challengesand then we'll get to the fun stuff.
So there are challenges,there's no doubt about it.
And I think because we set up as remote.
And so we had, you know, in our business
we would have individual C-suiteprofessionals, CFOs,
(10:50):
in working,they would go work, fractionally.
So part time.
And that would meanthey were hybrid sole businesses.
So they would go one daya week, two days a month.
The internal team that we have
to supportthat we call that our central team.
We never had offices to start withbecause we saw it
as an extra cost and overheads thatwe just didn't really think we needed.
(11:14):
So we were always remote as a team,and we all work from home from the start.
And there are challengesbecause I don't forget,
we didn't have so muchtechnology back then either.
So yeah, so what we
what we used to do was be very deliberate
about what we were going to do
(11:36):
and what were the reasons.
So why we would need to come together.
But we made sure that we did,meet physically, regularly.
And when I say regularly,it might be once a month.
And we would get the whole businesstogether twice a year.
So in teams locally once a month.
(11:57):
And we made sure that we did,
things during that time
that were very much aroundrelationship building.
So we didn't, do mundane things.
We didn't come togetherand then just do our work together.
We've absolutely built relationshipand we were very, very focused on that.
(12:18):
So we would define activities,work activities, and we would design,
very deliberately our time togetherbecause it was so precious.
And that meant that
we when we were apart,we were in our flow doing our work.
And we would communicate by,you know, text or email in those days
and phone now it's it's so much easierbecause we've got,
(12:42):
all the video conferencing,which we didn't have back then.
We used Skype a lot,
in the,in the early days that was available.
So that was that was the plan.
And it was about making sure that,
we brought in the elementsof psychological ownership,
into the relationships that we built.
(13:04):
So my research shows that,
you know,we can feel ownership towards our jobs
and towards our organizations that we workwith by there being a value exchange.
So firstly, you know, it has to work.
You know, we need to be able to earn moneyand, and have a living.
And our business needs to get valueout of what we do.
(13:26):
So it needs to be a good value exchange.
There needs to beit needs to add to our identity.
So we need to feel goodabout being a member of X organization
and it needs to sayhelp build us up in some way,
in terms of adding to our status.
And then we need to have, a home,
(13:50):
which means we need to bewith like minded people.
And if you can build those things
into the relationship at work,
then you start to get feelingsof ownership
towards the role in the job,which can, you know, which can make
where you're sittingand who you're sitting with less relevant.
(14:13):
Because you've got those, other aspects
that sort of a scaffoldingto hold you in your role.
And there are certain thingsthat you can do to build that ownership.
Wow. And we'll talk about thatin a second.
You said something, you kind of glossed it
over, like everybody understands this,and I don't think they do.
(14:34):
But this notionthat if the team is working remotely,
there is still a if not a need,
certainlya desire to physically get together.
And that means, you know,you might not have an office,
but you're going to have to renta conference room
or you're going to have to payfor some travel.
(14:56):
And you'reI mean, you just have to do that.
Yes, as we did.
And a lot of organizationsthink, well, everybody works remote,
you know,that annual meeting might be enough.
And I think
depending on the organization,it might not be.
(15:18):
So I deliberately
but to the, to all company conferences
into the schedule per year,I didn't think one was enough.
And it took a while to catch all.
And I have to say,because don't forget, we were working,
our team were freelancers.
So, you know,I couldn't force these people to come.
(15:40):
But actually, over time,everyone really started
to see the value of it being twice a year.
And that was and and some people haveto travel for that and others for that.
But then the monthly get togethersin the local teams,
I think were hugely importantbecause you then get some intimacy
(16:02):
into the relationshipswith coworkers and team leaders.
And that's part of,building the psychological ownership.
So and you need to be ableto hang out to do that,
and you need to be able to do something.
So often it works in an informal setting.
So we might get together and, you know,
(16:23):
discuss the businessduring the day or part of the day.
But then we you, we do somethingvery much fun and different and social,
which is where you can hang out togetherand allow the relationships
to flourish,just through more casual conversations.
And that's really needed,I think really needed.
(16:43):
As we reached the end of our time,you mentioned that
there were some specific thingsthat you could do.
Will you?
Let's share a couple of thosewith our folks so they can play. Yes.
So a big one is making surethat that the parties involved
feel that they can,be have access to each other.
(17:03):
So you're accessible,approachable and available.
That's really important in,
remote circumstancesto build this psychological ownership.
Because if you feel
you can get hold of each other quicklyand you're going to be responsive
to each other, and it goes both ways.
If you want other peopleto be responsive to you,
you need to be responsive to that.
(17:23):
And that helps build relationshipsand not.
Just for not for nothing.
But in order for that to happen,there needs to be some
discussions and ground rules aboutwhen are you available and.
How do you absolutely people.
And that doesn't happenjust out of good intentions. No.
You have to be very goodat planning ahead.
I'm very good at communicatingwhen you are available,
(17:46):
when you aren't availableand what are the parameters.
So that's that's a really good point.
Also, another big one is co-creation.
So doing things together,even if it's done remotely.
Actually in the same way,investing ourselves
in activities with others.
(18:07):
And so the very nature is you have tocommunicate each other to do it,
but then there's an investmentin what you've created
for the organization, which again, bonds,
the individuals to the organizationand their coworkers.
So that's that's another big one.
And intimacy.
So it's about allowing time,whether that's online
(18:29):
or offline, but allowing timejust to get to know each other
and have those, those timeswhere you share,
you know, deliberately have sessionswhere you talk about,
you know, thingsthat about yourselves that you wouldn't
normally talk about in a work situation.
So allow those,
those informal sessions to happen.
(18:52):
And I think that's where coming togetherphysically does really help with those.
So those are the sorts of things
that help bond individualsto organizations and their coworkers,
even if they're not, you know, physicallyworking together in an office all day.
And I have to add, by the way, that often,
I think this is really important.
(19:14):
Often we go into an office,
and I'm sure you've heard this beforemany times you go to an office
and you don't really talk to anyoneanyway.
You just get on your screen and,do do your job.
I mean, that can happen in officeenvironments.
So being very deliberate
about the times when you're actually goingto build relationships,
be with others, I think you can dothat even if you're remote.
(19:35):
Sarah, thank you so much.
So much good stuffin this conversation, folks.
If you want to learn more about Sarah,we will have all kinds of links
and informationand the CFO center and her book
Strategy and Leadership as a service
on our home page.
Sarah,thank you so much for being with us.
(19:57):
I really appreciate your time today.
Thanks for having me.
I really enjoyed it.
And folks, if you are interested,
in visit long distance
leader.com,like and subscribe to the show.
You know how podcasts work.
It's embarrassing to have to keep begging,but we appreciate your support.
(20:25):
If you are interested in our new book,The Long Distance
Leader Revised Rules for RemarkableRemote and Hybrid Leadership,
now in its second editionafter six years and seven languages.
Stop by and long distance
workplace.com/ldl or Kevin
Eikenberry dot coms LDL and learn more.
(20:49):
If you have comments, suggestions, guest
ideas,vicious personal attacks stopped by,
you can connect with Marissaand or myself on LinkedIn.
Long distance worklife has a page on LinkedIn.
Or you can just email us at the email.
Addresses listed and that's it.
(21:14):
Thank you so much for joining us.
We hope that,this podcast gives you some ideas.
Some spark gets you thinking in new waysabout the way that we work today.
We will be backnext week with a Marissa episode.
And that's it. I'm Wayne Trammell.
Don't let the weasels get you down.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com