October 28, 2024 • 22 mins
Alan Whitman, CEO at Baker Tilly, joins Wayne to discuss what happens when you allow tax accountants (and other professional services) to be innovative in the world of remote work. They discuss some of the things that his company has had to change and adapt to in order to continue growing the company.
Featured Guest
Name: Alan Whitman
What He Does: CEO at Baker Tilly US and Chairman of the Board of Directors at Baker Tilly International
Notable: Named CEO and chairman of the board of partners in 2016, Whitman previously led the firm’s Michigan market and developed the organization’s robust international services practice. He joined Baker Tilly in 2003, having spent 15 years with another national CPA firm where he led the middle-market tax practice.
Additional Resources
- Accounting firm CEO challenges outdated talent paradigms to declare an organizational purpose
- It’s Not About the Office
- Baker Tilly
- There is a better way: Breaking the mold of public accounting
- Learn more about Wayne Turmel
- Connect with Wayne Turmel on LinkedIn
- The Kevin Eikenberry Group
Want us to answer one of your questions? Contact Us!
See the full show notes and transcript: https://longdistanceworklife.com/what-happens-when-tax-accountants-embrace-innovation-with-alan-whitman/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Hi everybody.
Welcome back to the LongDistance Work Life Podcast.
This is where we try to make senseof remote work and hybrid work and
all of that stuff withoutletting the weasels drive you insane.
My name is Wayne Turmel.
We have a good newsbad news situation today.
The bad news being we are Marisa lessbecause the good news is
(00:31):
we have a really terrific guestwith us today
and is going to bean important conversation.
I am going to bring our guest in here.
This is Alan Whitman.
He is the CEO of the accounting firmfirm Baker Tilly.
And Alan, maybe you can dolike a quick introduction on you
(00:53):
and what your company does,
and then we'll get down towhy we're having this conversation.
Yeah.
Well, Wayne, thank you for having me thisafternoon or this morning.
I don't know when this will play.
It's exciting to be with you
and to talk about the subjectthat that you'll you and I will discuss.
I'm the CEO of Baker Tilly us.
(01:13):
We are a global CPA firm.
We serve middle
market, upper middle market clientelein the in the areas of assurance
or test, audit and assurance,tax and advisory.
We've got approximately 6500 peopleworldwide.
We're about a billionand a half dollars in revenue.
(01:35):
And we've been at this since 1931.
I've been our CEO since 2016, and I'mvery, very lucky to be in the position
I am. Now
we are talkingbecause you have been making some noise
out in the blogosphereand and the world of Baker Tilly has taken
a very different approachto remote work than a lot of your
(02:00):
colleagues.
I know I've had more than one persontell me they don't want their accountants
being innovative.
They want their accountantsto keep them out of jail.
And and yet you are really an advocate
for remote work, which is not universallythe case in professional services
in general,but particularly in tax accounting.
(02:22):
Tell me what's going on there.
Well, one foundational concept is thingsdon't have to be either or.
It's not that you're either innovativeor you keep your clients out of jail.
If you say you can be both,it could be a both.
And so we do want to be innovative.
We want to come up withwith new solutions, creative solutions,
because our mission is to enhance,to protect our clients value.
(02:46):
That's what we're here to do.
We do that through a myriad of things,whether it's assurance, tax advisory
or what have you.
And so we think of both and versuseither or.
And so as you say that we've been,you know, making some noise.
Look, I I believe that the last few years,you know, with all the horrible
things that have happenedas a result of coronavirus, COVID,
(03:09):
and we all know about themsolid being, isolated death,
economic ruin, if
you will, or economic situations.
This has been nothingmore than a time machine.
We stepped into the time machinein the winter March,
I think 16th or so of 2020,and we stepped out of it some time in 21
(03:30):
or 22, whenever people feltthat they can go about their their lives.
And when we got out of the timemachine, what?
Well, the calendar said 22 to 22.
It really was 20, 35.
I'd sayfrom all the things we're dealing with,
we were moving along the continuumto virtual work.
We were moving along the wayalong the continuum of maximum
(03:52):
flexibility for our workers,for our employees, for our colleagues.
And so this is one of those thingsthat was happening gradually and suddenly
when we stepped out of the time machine,the COVID time machine, it was upon us.
And so one of the things we need to
realize is going back towhere we were is is impossible.
And it's not about normal or abnormal.
(04:13):
It's about where we were.
And if we're not looking forwardinto the future,
we're going to be hamperedby where we were.
And that's really no way to live a life.
That's no way to run a company.
And so we've embraced the ideathat we need to find a new way.
We need to define our new normal,if you will, and our new future.
Now, let
me let me stop you there,because I'm I'm agreeing with that said.
(04:36):
And the question is, was this something
that you were giving seriousthought to before we got pushed
across the Rubicon, or did you kind of
get surprised by it?
Well, if if if I say anything other
than to surpriseall people would challenge me.
(04:57):
Look, COVID was in one way.
It was a black swan.
And so let's take advantage of the blackswan again,
knowing that it was horrific,it was horrible, and we can learn from it.
And so I do remember August of 20
excuse me, August of 21,
I sat down with my leaders of our humanresources group, our people
(05:21):
we call people solutions and said, listen,we knew we needed a new environment.
We did a new way of doing things.
And so that was the genesis of Breakthe Mold.
That was the genesis of us saying,you know what, enough's enough.
We've got an opportunity hereand we have got a responsibility
and an expectation from our peopleto do things differently.
So all the things that we knew
(05:42):
that we thought were tablestakes, that were unmistakable
aspects of our profession, I said,You know what?
Why, why do we need to do it this wayor that way?
Why can we not do it a different way?
I didn't have the solution.
I just had the questionwith to my to my colleagues of let's
think of a different way of doing thingsand let's break from the past.
(06:04):
Let's not forget the past.
Let's use the past to fuel the future.
And so I remember sitting therewith my lead people Solutions executive
and, and our director of People Solutionsand really just spitballing
on, on a on a flip chart,all the things that were holding us back.
And it was generated by COVID.
It was generated by the Black Swanand the change in dynamic,
(06:27):
whether it be how we operateand whether and
whether it be the way that people expected
to show up and come to work.
So there are 100 ways I can takethis questioning and I'm trying to keep it
on track here without going too fardown the rabbit hole.
But what was your first big aha.
(06:52):
That the way I grew up in this profession.
I started this profession in 1987.
That's the wayI grew up in this profession.
Doesn't mean that the person isn't
the same as the persongrowing up in the profession. That
excuse me.
We all knew a new puppy in the house.
That's that's the that's thethe reverb of of working from home.
So I just said just because I did itthat way
(07:14):
doesn't mean that the next generationis going to do it that way.
I have a 19 year old daughter.
You know, the first signthat things were different was
they were studyingand working with headphones in their ears.
I never did thatand so I knew something was wrong.
And so watching my daughterand listening to her
let's see her friends told methat there's got to be a different way.
And to get them to beexcited about our profession,
(07:35):
we need to we need to change.
And so we reached out to those that
we were making
not policies, but principles
and making the way of workfor to get the answers.
And so we brought in we had inner circles,as we like to call them.
We brought all 6000 people,invited all 6000 people to small groups
of inner circles to to kick the tiresof this concept, to break the mold.
(08:00):
What do we need to do to breakthe mold of public accounting,
where by will be a different place,a different workplace into the future?
Because in the end of the day, when,while I may be the CEO of the firm,
it really isthere for it's their firm of the future.
Yeah, I, I'm intrigued
a little bitbecause one of the things I know about
(08:22):
professional services in general and,and not that I'm an expert in accounting,
but I know that culture and a culture ofmentoring is a big piece of that.
You know, you mentioned your daughter.
We have about 15 to 20% of the workforce
who came into the workforce during COVID.
(08:43):
And so they don't remember the beforetimes.
Right. Right.
So so luxurious your inner circles.
How do they tackle the idea of onboarding,mentoring,
bringing people inand making them part of the culture?
Well, one of the challengesthat we face is not knowing,
(09:04):
not recognizing what you don't know.
And and you're right,whether it's the apprentice model,
whether it's the mentor model, etc..
And the question is,how do we mentor in this new environment?
And and how do we apprenticein this new environment?
Not the only way to apprenticeis the way I did it.
The only way to apprentices proximity.
And so we've we've coinedthe phrase in our firm, we've got to go
(09:26):
from proximitybeing two feet away from somebody
being at the next officeto intentionality.
And so maybe it maybe it doesn't
matterwhether you're two feet away from somebody
or 200 miles away from somebody,you still need to be intentional.
You can't just assume that somebodyis going to pick up on what you're saying
because they're listening to you.
(09:47):
You've got to be intentionalabout mentoring them.
You've got to be intentionalabout building connections.
That's what we're focused on.
One of the things we're concerned about
and so this isn't this isn't likewe've got it all figured out and voila,
we've got a new wayof making making a soup or making a cake.
We are very concerned with peopledeveloping at the same pace
(10:07):
they were before, and we're concernedabout people being promotion
ready when it's time to consider themfor being a promotion.
Did they develop?
Did they take on the learningsas quickly as we had?
They would have or they did before
whereby they'll be ready for promotion oris everything pushed back a year or two?
And if that's the case, then we need toreexamine how we're developing people,
(10:31):
not put them back to where we were,because that's the only way to do it,
because think about it
in a shorter period of time,I'll be out of the working world
or I'll be out of Baker Tilly,then the next generation.
And so just because I knew how to do itmy way back in the eighties and nineties
and into early 2000s,
the nextgeneration didn't learn the way I did.
So we really need to modernizethe organization
(10:55):
for the future.
Let me give you an example.
So I was a tax guy growing upand in my growing
up in the firm, productionwas the only thing that mattered.
Of course, development was,but it was all about
how many of this or that can can I do?
How many individual tax returnsshould I do in a year
predicated by how many billable hoursshould I have in a year?
(11:17):
And I bet you I did
four or 500 individualtax returns growing up.
I probably stopped learning after 120 530.
Why did I do the nextthe next group of tech of individual?
All because that's the way we ran theorganization, because the work was there.
We needed to get the business outand we need to do the tax returns
and service our clients well, whatwhat about my development?
(11:40):
What about I wasn't learning,you know, the law of diminishing returns?
Why can't we think about taking that 350
returns, tax tax filings and give them tosomebody else that they can learn?
And then you can build meinto something different
by giving me different experiences.
That's what I mean by being intentionalrather than just fill
my day with workthat is in the in the system.
(12:02):
Why don't we fill my daywith developmental opportunities
to unleash and amplify my talent?
That is our purpose as an organization.
We are here to unleash and amplifyeven my talent being the CEO.
And so we need to be very intentional.
Proximity is is not the solution.
Many of many executivesin the United States
(12:22):
and frankly in the worldbelieve that the office is the solution.
The office is not the solution.
The office is a place.
It's not just becauseyou come to the office.
Does that mean you're going to learn?
Just because you're sitting nextto somebody doesn't mean
you're going to learn being intentionalabout learning and development,
being intentionalabout developing connections.
(12:44):
I don't care if it's under a tree.
I don't care if it's in a park.
I don't care if it's at the YMCA.
Let's connect with our peopleto build collaborative teams,
to enhanceand protect our clients value and buy in.
In order to do that, I need to unleashand amplify in each individual's talent.
So again, we're going from proximityto intentionality.
(13:05):
I love that question.
I'm thinking about thisas somebody listening to this podcast.
And so is there something
specific that I almost said to you?
But I know it'syour people have instituted
in order to begin that development
pipeline that was differentfrom what it was before?
(13:27):
Is there a a a policy, a way of learning?
A it's something concretethat we can point to
that says, look what they're doing.
That's different.
Okay.
So we've built an innovation hub,innovation lab, and every individual is
when they're hired, goes to that labfor a week when they get hired.
Well, that's not audit in tax.
(13:48):
That's innovation.That's learning how to think differently.
That's one too.
We've started identifying the careernon value added tasks that everybody does
and we're best getting them togetherand figuring out where should we put
those in the organizationto have somebody else do it?
Who is better, better equipped to do itso that the associate isn't mired
(14:09):
in all of the administrative layersthat go into being a public accountant?
Here'sa prime example building and collections
entering time building collections.
People didn't come into public accountingto do billing and collections.
That's an administrativetask. It's very important.
Let's put it with the personthat actually can do that.
That is designedand and learned and taught how to do that
(14:32):
versus having the
the technician, the consultantspend their time with things that aren't
is things that are not going to unleashand amplify talent.
It's not about being betteror worse than that.
Work.
It's about having the right workfor people.
There's there's just an endless supply.
So all of those thingsare actually happening.
We're also instituting
(14:54):
short termassignments where people are going to go
through a rotational program to learndifferent things in the organization.
Now that happens a lot.
And companies like P&G, their managementtraining program, where there's
one of my partners, Chris,who runs our Wisconsin practice,
her son joined an organizationoutside of public accounting,
and he was put immediatelyput into a five year rotational program.
(15:16):
And he said, well, I'm not going to leave.
This is wonderful.
I'm getting a wonderful experience
over my first five yearsI'm seeing so many different things.
Well, in our professionwe could we say, Well,
we can't do thatbecause of their billable hours.
They're not going to have as many billablehours.
We're not going to make as much moneyin the long term.
You can have a better professional,you have a more
a better trained professional.
And so let's make the investmentin unleashing, amplifying their talent
(15:39):
so that in the future
they're better,
a better professional, betterable to enhance and protect our clients.
So we need to break from the past.
We need to go from a productionbased organization where all it was
was about hours, hours, hours.
All you were graded on was hours.
You didn't know if those hoursare good, bad or indifferent.
Let's go to an output based organization
(16:03):
production to our output based or value.
Let's go from proximity to intentionality.
And so there is a huge shiftin our organization to modern size us
and become more of an outputbased organization or be solely an output
based organization rather than the behandcuffed by our accounting policies.
(16:24):
You just said something a minute agowhich I have been obsessing about,
and I haven't heard anybody in a big boyposition say this out loud.
So I want to run something by you,because our careers are of a similar age.
And when we were young workers,
there were assistantsand administrative professionals,
(16:48):
and there were peoplewho handled things like
billingand recording time and doing all that.
And then with the invention of the PCand all the software,
suddenly we got to do everything ourselvesand everybody made
that sound like it was a really good idea.
(17:08):
And I see you nodding, so I knowyou know where I'm going with this.
You know, all the suddenwe were making our own schedules
and writing our own letters anddoing all the stuff that we were doing.
But it wasn't the workthat we were supposed to do.
And it sounds like you've had
(17:28):
a little bit epiphany about this.
Yeah.
So look, it's some of it's administrativeand some of it is redundant assignments.
My thinking about individual tax returns
or, you know, small
projects that that are repetitiveand you know, you've got 3 hours.
We'll do these five because you're goingget your billable hours.
(17:51):
Well, that doesn't help me.
It helps the productionof the organization.
Okay, then let's focus on
if I'm not going to do them,how are we still going to get them done?
Let's not focus on the factthat you didn't do them.
Let's focuson redeploying you to something different.
Because I have an obligation,given our purpose as an organization,
to unleash and amplifyWayne Turbo's talent.
That's why I'm here.
(18:12):
And if I don't do that,I'm not living our purpose.
And so you're right, it'sboth administrative type things.
The layering, it'slike it's like painting your walls, right?
You paint it and you paint another color,then you keep painting it.
And pretty soon you've got ten layersof paint on the walls, and pretty soon
you got to take the entire thing downand start over again.
That'sthat's the layering effect of all this.
(18:32):
And so, yes, we are going towe are not going to
we are actually identifying nowall of those career non value added tasks,
both administrativeand just redundant assignments
moving asideso we can build a bespoke unleash
and amplified talentdevelopment program for our 6500 people.
(18:53):
Look, it's going to take some time. It'sgoing to it's a journey.
We're not going to snap our fingersand have it happen.
But we have set out, of course,
we've been working on thisand we have 1% buy in in the organization.
And it's fun to see people doodle and
and debateand innovate new ways of doing things.
So it's a we've got the powerof the organization behind us on this.
It's it's a lot of fun to watch.
(19:15):
Now, it is often said that a profit iswithout honoring his own land.
So you have plenty of peoplein your industry
who are coming tosome of these realizations very slowly.
If there's one thingthat you could tell, the
one piece of wisdom that you could sharebefore we leave
with your fellow CEOs and leaders,
(19:38):
what would it be?
Well, I'm a little
ashamed to be giving
wisdom to people maybe that havea lot more experience than I do.
But since you ask the questionand you're the host of this podcast, I'll
I'll answer the question.I'll take the heat.
Don't worry.
Look, many of us,especially in the technical sense,
(19:58):
you know, technicians, et cetera.
We think that we need to start perfectly
until we have it perfect.
Don't start.
My advice isyou don't need to start perfect.
You just need to start.
You just need to start.
You're not going to get it perfect.
And perfect is not the goal.
The goal is to get it goingso you can continue to improve
(20:21):
on what you've set out to doand getting the people
in your organization to join the band,so to speak.
That's a huge step.
Get it going. Start.
Don't start. Perfect.
You'll be surprised at how much you'llaccomplish if you just get over the over
the over the required it self-imposed
(20:41):
requirement of being perfect.
Allen Whitman, CEO of Baker Tilly,thank you so much for being with us.
This is a great conversationand I could geek out.
I've got a million things that I knowwe could talk about.
Thank you for raising your head upand talking about these things.
We we really appreciate it.
(21:03):
Well, my pleasure.
And thank you for allowing me to share it.
And I love your excitementabout the topic.
So appreciate it.
And happy holidays and happy New Year.
And of course, all of Alan’s
information is going to be on our website.
Long distance work life dotcom on the page for this episode.
(21:24):
Our new book, The Long Distance Team.
If you are interested in starting a team
from scratchor reorganizing how your team works.
Kevin In my new book, The Long DistanceTeam will be out February 28th.
We are very excited about thatand of course you want to ask us
(21:46):
a question or have a topicthat you want us to discuss.
You can reach out to Marisa and I,
Wayne@KevinEikenberry.comMarisa@KevinEikenberry.com.
Again, we will have linksto some of Alan's articles
and and information
about BakerTilly for those who are interested.
(22:09):
As always,
we are very, very proud and excitedthat Kevin
Eikenberry groupto bring you information like this.
You know the dealif you listen to podcasts
there like and subscribe.
That's it. My name is Wayne Trammell.
Thank you for being with us on the longdistance work life.
(22:31):
And don'tlet the weasels get you down. Hey.
Hi everybody.
Welcome back to the LongDistance Work Life Podcast.
This is where we try to make senseof remote work and hybrid work and
all of that stuff withoutletting the weasels drive you insane.
My name is Wayne Turmel.
We have a good newsbad news situation today.
The bad news being we are Marisa lessbecause the good news is
(00:31):
we have a really terrific guestwith us today
and is going to bean important conversation.
I am going to bring our guest in here.
This is Alan Whitman.
He is the CEO of the accounting firmfirm Baker Tilly.
And Alan, maybe you can dolike a quick introduction on you
(00:53):
and what your company does,
and then we'll get down towhy we're having this conversation.
Yeah.
Well, Wayne, thank you for having me thisafternoon or this morning.
I don't know when this will play.
It's exciting to be with you
and to talk about the subjectthat that you'll you and I will discuss.
I'm the CEO of Baker Tilly us.
(01:13):
We are a global CPA firm.
We serve middle
market, upper middle market clientelein the in the areas of assurance
or test, audit and assurance,tax and advisory.
We've got approximately 6500 peopleworldwide.
We're about a billionand a half dollars in revenue.
(01:35):
And we've been at this since 1931.
I've been our CEO since 2016, and I'mvery, very lucky to be in the position
I am. Now
we are talkingbecause you have been making some noise
out in the blogosphereand and the world of Baker Tilly has taken
a very different approachto remote work than a lot of your
(02:00):
colleagues.
I know I've had more than one persontell me they don't want their accountants
being innovative.
They want their accountantsto keep them out of jail.
And and yet you are really an advocate
for remote work, which is not universallythe case in professional services
in general,but particularly in tax accounting.
(02:22):
Tell me what's going on there.
Well, one foundational concept is thingsdon't have to be either or.
It's not that you're either innovativeor you keep your clients out of jail.
If you say you can be both,it could be a both.
And so we do want to be innovative.
We want to come up withwith new solutions, creative solutions,
because our mission is to enhance,to protect our clients value.
(02:46):
That's what we're here to do.
We do that through a myriad of things,whether it's assurance, tax advisory
or what have you.
And so we think of both and versuseither or.
And so as you say that we've been,you know, making some noise.
Look, I I believe that the last few years,you know, with all the horrible
things that have happenedas a result of coronavirus, COVID,
(03:09):
and we all know about themsolid being, isolated death,
economic ruin, if
you will, or economic situations.
This has been nothingmore than a time machine.
We stepped into the time machinein the winter March,
I think 16th or so of 2020,and we stepped out of it some time in 21
(03:30):
or 22, whenever people feltthat they can go about their their lives.
And when we got out of the timemachine, what?
Well, the calendar said 22 to 22.
It really was 20, 35.
I'd sayfrom all the things we're dealing with,
we were moving along the continuumto virtual work.
We were moving along the wayalong the continuum of maximum
(03:52):
flexibility for our workers,for our employees, for our colleagues.
And so this is one of those thingsthat was happening gradually and suddenly
when we stepped out of the time machine,the COVID time machine, it was upon us.
And so one of the things we need to
realize is going back towhere we were is is impossible.
And it's not about normal or abnormal.
(04:13):
It's about where we were.
And if we're not looking forwardinto the future,
we're going to be hamperedby where we were.
And that's really no way to live a life.
That's no way to run a company.
And so we've embraced the ideathat we need to find a new way.
We need to define our new normal,if you will, and our new future.
Now, let
me let me stop you there,because I'm I'm agreeing with that said.
(04:36):
And the question is, was this something
that you were giving seriousthought to before we got pushed
across the Rubicon, or did you kind of
get surprised by it?
Well, if if if I say anything other
than to surpriseall people would challenge me.
(04:57):
Look, COVID was in one way.
It was a black swan.
And so let's take advantage of the blackswan again,
knowing that it was horrific,it was horrible, and we can learn from it.
And so I do remember August of 20
excuse me, August of 21,
I sat down with my leaders of our humanresources group, our people
(05:21):
we call people solutions and said, listen,we knew we needed a new environment.
We did a new way of doing things.
And so that was the genesis of Breakthe Mold.
That was the genesis of us saying,you know what, enough's enough.
We've got an opportunity hereand we have got a responsibility
and an expectation from our peopleto do things differently.
So all the things that we knew
(05:42):
that we thought were tablestakes, that were unmistakable
aspects of our profession, I said,You know what?
Why, why do we need to do it this wayor that way?
Why can we not do it a different way?
I didn't have the solution.
I just had the questionwith to my to my colleagues of let's
think of a different way of doing thingsand let's break from the past.
(06:04):
Let's not forget the past.
Let's use the past to fuel the future.
And so I remember sitting therewith my lead people Solutions executive
and, and our director of People Solutionsand really just spitballing
on, on a on a flip chart,all the things that were holding us back.
And it was generated by COVID.
It was generated by the Black Swanand the change in dynamic,
(06:27):
whether it be how we operateand whether and
whether it be the way that people expected
to show up and come to work.
So there are 100 ways I can takethis questioning and I'm trying to keep it
on track here without going too fardown the rabbit hole.
But what was your first big aha.
(06:52):
That the way I grew up in this profession.
I started this profession in 1987.
That's the wayI grew up in this profession.
Doesn't mean that the person isn't
the same as the persongrowing up in the profession. That
excuse me.
We all knew a new puppy in the house.
That's that's the that's thethe reverb of of working from home.
So I just said just because I did itthat way
(07:14):
doesn't mean that the next generationis going to do it that way.
I have a 19 year old daughter.
You know, the first signthat things were different was
they were studyingand working with headphones in their ears.
I never did thatand so I knew something was wrong.
And so watching my daughterand listening to her
let's see her friends told methat there's got to be a different way.
And to get them to beexcited about our profession,
(07:35):
we need to we need to change.
And so we reached out to those that
we were making
not policies, but principles
and making the way of workfor to get the answers.
And so we brought in we had inner circles,as we like to call them.
We brought all 6000 people,invited all 6000 people to small groups
of inner circles to to kick the tiresof this concept, to break the mold.
(08:00):
What do we need to do to breakthe mold of public accounting,
where by will be a different place,a different workplace into the future?
Because in the end of the day, when,while I may be the CEO of the firm,
it really isthere for it's their firm of the future.
Yeah, I, I'm intrigued
a little bitbecause one of the things I know about
(08:22):
professional services in general and,and not that I'm an expert in accounting,
but I know that culture and a culture ofmentoring is a big piece of that.
You know, you mentioned your daughter.
We have about 15 to 20% of the workforce
who came into the workforce during COVID.
(08:43):
And so they don't remember the beforetimes.
Right. Right.
So so luxurious your inner circles.
How do they tackle the idea of onboarding,mentoring,
bringing people inand making them part of the culture?
Well, one of the challengesthat we face is not knowing,
(09:04):
not recognizing what you don't know.
And and you're right,whether it's the apprentice model,
whether it's the mentor model, etc..
And the question is,how do we mentor in this new environment?
And and how do we apprenticein this new environment?
Not the only way to apprenticeis the way I did it.
The only way to apprentices proximity.
And so we've we've coinedthe phrase in our firm, we've got to go
(09:26):
from proximitybeing two feet away from somebody
being at the next officeto intentionality.
And so maybe it maybe it doesn't
matterwhether you're two feet away from somebody
or 200 miles away from somebody,you still need to be intentional.
You can't just assume that somebodyis going to pick up on what you're saying
because they're listening to you.
(09:47):
You've got to be intentionalabout mentoring them.
You've got to be intentionalabout building connections.
That's what we're focused on.
One of the things we're concerned about
and so this isn't this isn't likewe've got it all figured out and voila,
we've got a new wayof making making a soup or making a cake.
We are very concerned with peopledeveloping at the same pace
(10:07):
they were before, and we're concernedabout people being promotion
ready when it's time to consider themfor being a promotion.
Did they develop?
Did they take on the learningsas quickly as we had?
They would have or they did before
whereby they'll be ready for promotion oris everything pushed back a year or two?
And if that's the case, then we need toreexamine how we're developing people,
(10:31):
not put them back to where we were,because that's the only way to do it,
because think about it
in a shorter period of time,I'll be out of the working world
or I'll be out of Baker Tilly,then the next generation.
And so just because I knew how to do itmy way back in the eighties and nineties
and into early 2000s,
the nextgeneration didn't learn the way I did.
So we really need to modernizethe organization
(10:55):
for the future.
Let me give you an example.
So I was a tax guy growing upand in my growing
up in the firm, productionwas the only thing that mattered.
Of course, development was,but it was all about
how many of this or that can can I do?
How many individual tax returnsshould I do in a year
predicated by how many billable hoursshould I have in a year?
(11:17):
And I bet you I did
four or 500 individualtax returns growing up.
I probably stopped learning after 120 530.
Why did I do the nextthe next group of tech of individual?
All because that's the way we ran theorganization, because the work was there.
We needed to get the business outand we need to do the tax returns
and service our clients well, whatwhat about my development?
(11:40):
What about I wasn't learning,you know, the law of diminishing returns?
Why can't we think about taking that 350
returns, tax tax filings and give them tosomebody else that they can learn?
And then you can build meinto something different
by giving me different experiences.
That's what I mean by being intentionalrather than just fill
my day with workthat is in the in the system.
(12:02):
Why don't we fill my daywith developmental opportunities
to unleash and amplify my talent?
That is our purpose as an organization.
We are here to unleash and amplifyeven my talent being the CEO.
And so we need to be very intentional.
Proximity is is not the solution.
Many of many executivesin the United States
(12:22):
and frankly in the worldbelieve that the office is the solution.
The office is not the solution.
The office is a place.
It's not just becauseyou come to the office.
Does that mean you're going to learn?
Just because you're sitting nextto somebody doesn't mean
you're going to learn being intentionalabout learning and development,
being intentionalabout developing connections.
(12:44):
I don't care if it's under a tree.
I don't care if it's in a park.
I don't care if it's at the YMCA.
Let's connect with our peopleto build collaborative teams,
to enhanceand protect our clients value and buy in.
In order to do that, I need to unleashand amplify in each individual's talent.
So again, we're going from proximityto intentionality.
(13:05):
I love that question.
I'm thinking about thisas somebody listening to this podcast.
And so is there something
specific that I almost said to you?
But I know it'syour people have instituted
in order to begin that development
pipeline that was differentfrom what it was before?
(13:27):
Is there a a a policy, a way of learning?
A it's something concretethat we can point to
that says, look what they're doing.
That's different.
Okay.
So we've built an innovation hub,innovation lab, and every individual is
when they're hired, goes to that labfor a week when they get hired.
Well, that's not audit in tax.
(13:48):
That's innovation.That's learning how to think differently.
That's one too.
We've started identifying the careernon value added tasks that everybody does
and we're best getting them togetherand figuring out where should we put
those in the organizationto have somebody else do it?
Who is better, better equipped to do itso that the associate isn't mired
(14:09):
in all of the administrative layersthat go into being a public accountant?
Here'sa prime example building and collections
entering time building collections.
People didn't come into public accountingto do billing and collections.
That's an administrativetask. It's very important.
Let's put it with the personthat actually can do that.
That is designedand and learned and taught how to do that
(14:32):
versus having the
the technician, the consultantspend their time with things that aren't
is things that are not going to unleashand amplify talent.
It's not about being betteror worse than that.
Work.
It's about having the right workfor people.
There's there's just an endless supply.
So all of those thingsare actually happening.
We're also instituting
(14:54):
short termassignments where people are going to go
through a rotational program to learndifferent things in the organization.
Now that happens a lot.
And companies like P&G, their managementtraining program, where there's
one of my partners, Chris,who runs our Wisconsin practice,
her son joined an organizationoutside of public accounting,
and he was put immediatelyput into a five year rotational program.
(15:16):
And he said, well, I'm not going to leave.
This is wonderful.
I'm getting a wonderful experience
over my first five yearsI'm seeing so many different things.
Well, in our professionwe could we say, Well,
we can't do thatbecause of their billable hours.
They're not going to have as many billablehours.
We're not going to make as much moneyin the long term.
You can have a better professional,you have a more
a better trained professional.
And so let's make the investmentin unleashing, amplifying their talent
(15:39):
so that in the future
they're better,
a better professional, betterable to enhance and protect our clients.
So we need to break from the past.
We need to go from a productionbased organization where all it was
was about hours, hours, hours.
All you were graded on was hours.
You didn't know if those hoursare good, bad or indifferent.
Let's go to an output based organization
(16:03):
production to our output based or value.
Let's go from proximity to intentionality.
And so there is a huge shiftin our organization to modern size us
and become more of an outputbased organization or be solely an output
based organization rather than the behandcuffed by our accounting policies.
(16:24):
You just said something a minute agowhich I have been obsessing about,
and I haven't heard anybody in a big boyposition say this out loud.
So I want to run something by you,because our careers are of a similar age.
And when we were young workers,
there were assistantsand administrative professionals,
(16:48):
and there were peoplewho handled things like
billingand recording time and doing all that.
And then with the invention of the PCand all the software,
suddenly we got to do everything ourselvesand everybody made
that sound like it was a really good idea.
(17:08):
And I see you nodding, so I knowyou know where I'm going with this.
You know, all the suddenwe were making our own schedules
and writing our own letters anddoing all the stuff that we were doing.
But it wasn't the workthat we were supposed to do.
And it sounds like you've had
(17:28):
a little bit epiphany about this.
Yeah.
So look, it's some of it's administrativeand some of it is redundant assignments.
My thinking about individual tax returns
or, you know, small
projects that that are repetitiveand you know, you've got 3 hours.
We'll do these five because you're goingget your billable hours.
(17:51):
Well, that doesn't help me.
It helps the productionof the organization.
Okay, then let's focus on
if I'm not going to do them,how are we still going to get them done?
Let's not focus on the factthat you didn't do them.
Let's focuson redeploying you to something different.
Because I have an obligation,given our purpose as an organization,
to unleash and amplifyWayne Turbo's talent.
That's why I'm here.
(18:12):
And if I don't do that,I'm not living our purpose.
And so you're right, it'sboth administrative type things.
The layering, it'slike it's like painting your walls, right?
You paint it and you paint another color,then you keep painting it.
And pretty soon you've got ten layersof paint on the walls, and pretty soon
you got to take the entire thing downand start over again.
That'sthat's the layering effect of all this.
(18:32):
And so, yes, we are going towe are not going to
we are actually identifying nowall of those career non value added tasks,
both administrativeand just redundant assignments
moving asideso we can build a bespoke unleash
and amplified talentdevelopment program for our 6500 people.
(18:53):
Look, it's going to take some time. It'sgoing to it's a journey.
We're not going to snap our fingersand have it happen.
But we have set out, of course,
we've been working on thisand we have 1% buy in in the organization.
And it's fun to see people doodle and
and debateand innovate new ways of doing things.
So it's a we've got the powerof the organization behind us on this.
It's it's a lot of fun to watch.
(19:15):
Now, it is often said that a profit iswithout honoring his own land.
So you have plenty of peoplein your industry
who are coming tosome of these realizations very slowly.
If there's one thingthat you could tell, the
one piece of wisdom that you could sharebefore we leave
with your fellow CEOs and leaders,
(19:38):
what would it be?
Well, I'm a little
ashamed to be giving
wisdom to people maybe that havea lot more experience than I do.
But since you ask the questionand you're the host of this podcast, I'll
I'll answer the question.I'll take the heat.
Don't worry.
Look, many of us,especially in the technical sense,
(19:58):
you know, technicians, et cetera.
We think that we need to start perfectly
until we have it perfect.
Don't start.
My advice isyou don't need to start perfect.
You just need to start.
You just need to start.
You're not going to get it perfect.
And perfect is not the goal.
The goal is to get it goingso you can continue to improve
(20:21):
on what you've set out to doand getting the people
in your organization to join the band,so to speak.
That's a huge step.
Get it going. Start.
Don't start. Perfect.
You'll be surprised at how much you'llaccomplish if you just get over the over
the over the required it self-imposed
(20:41):
requirement of being perfect.
Allen Whitman, CEO of Baker Tilly,thank you so much for being with us.
This is a great conversationand I could geek out.
I've got a million things that I knowwe could talk about.
Thank you for raising your head upand talking about these things.
We we really appreciate it.
(21:03):
Well, my pleasure.
And thank you for allowing me to share it.
And I love your excitementabout the topic.
So appreciate it.
And happy holidays and happy New Year.
And of course, all of Alan’s
information is going to be on our website.
Long distance work life dotcom on the page for this episode.
(21:24):
Our new book, The Long Distance Team.
If you are interested in starting a team
from scratchor reorganizing how your team works.
Kevin In my new book, The Long DistanceTeam will be out February 28th.
We are very excited about thatand of course you want to ask us
(21:46):
a question or have a topicthat you want us to discuss.
You can reach out to Marisa and I,
Wayne@KevinEikenberry.comMarisa@KevinEikenberry.com.
Again, we will have linksto some of Alan's articles
and and information
about BakerTilly for those who are interested.
(22:09):
As always,
we are very, very proud and excitedthat Kevin
Eikenberry groupto bring you information like this.
You know the dealif you listen to podcasts
there like and subscribe.
That's it. My name is Wayne Trammell.
Thank you for being with us on the longdistance work life.
(22:31):
And don'tlet the weasels get you down. Hey.
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