January 27, 2025 • 28 mins
The Final Episode? What’s Next for Remote Work & Leadership
In this special episode of Long-Distance Worklife, Wayne Turmel is joined by leadership expert Kevin Eikenberry to discuss the future of leadership, workplace flexibility, and the key insights from Kevin’s latest book, Flexible Leadership: Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with Confidence.
They explore why leadership must evolve in response to an ever-changing work environment, how leaders can balance flexibility with consistency, and why the debate around remote and hybrid work is far from over. Plus, Wayne shares an important announcement about the future of the podcast.
Don’t miss this insightful conversation on navigating the complexities of leadership in 2025 and beyond.
Episode Highlights:
✅ Why flexible leadership is essential in today’s workplace
✅ The myths around “return to office” and why remote work isn’t dead
✅ How leaders can balance consistency and adaptability
✅ Practical strategies for leading teams in uncertain times
✅ A major announcement about Long-Distance Worklife and what’s next
⏰ Timestamps:
00:00 Intro to the Final Episode
00:35 Special Guest: Kevin Eikenberry
01:26 Why Leadership Must Be More Flexible
03:04 The “Return to Office” Debate: What’s Really Happening?
05:10 The Challenges Leaders Face with Hybrid Work
07:01 Understanding the Cynefin Model for Decision-Making
10:15 How Leaders Can Adapt in Different Situations
14:26 Balancing Flexibility with Consistency as a Leader
17:07 How Communication Changes with a Flexible Leadership Style
21:20 Why Flexible Leadership is the Future of Work
23:22 Big Announcement: What’s Next for Long-Distance Worklife
26:49 What’s Coming on The Remarkable Leadership Podcast
28:13 Final Thoughts & Thank You to Our Listeners
🔗 Resources & Links:
📖 Get Flexible Leadership and exclusive bonuses: KevinEikenberry.com/Flexible-Leadership
🎙️ Follow Kevin’s podcast: The Remarkable Leadership Podcast
🌐 Explore past episodes and resources: LongDistanceWorklife.com
Thank you for being part of this journey! Follow us to The Remarkable Leadership Podcast for more insights on remote work, hybrid teams, and leadership in the evolving workplace.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Hi, everybody.
Welcome toanother episode of Long Distance Worklife,
the show where we need to help you.
Do more than survive,but thrive in the crazy,
evolving world of work.
Our guest today,because it is a Marisa-less episode,
but our guest today is somebodyvery familiar to most of you.
(00:32):
You have heard his name,if not actually met him.
That is, our bossand my coauthor, author, Kevin Eikenberry.
And when the interview is over,I would really love you to stick around.
I have an important announcementto make at the end of the show
that I hope you will stick around forand heed.
(00:52):
That being said,
we are going to introduce the lovelyand talented Kevin Eikenberry.
He is the brains behind the KevinEikenberry group.
He is also my coauthor on the three books
in the Long Distance Work Life series,Long Distance Leader, Long Distance
Teammate, Long Distance Team,and now Circling Back Again,
(01:15):
with the updated versionof long distance leader.
But he's not here to talk aboutany of that stuff.
He is here to talk about his latest book,Flexible Leadership.
Kevin, how are you?
Hey. I'm good, I'm good.
I'm glad to be here.
It's nice man.
This side of the mic.
Yeah it is.
(01:35):
You do as much of this or more than I do.
And it's,
It's sometimes tiring,but I know you are energized
because you've got a new bookthat you're very excited about.
Let's start with the titleflexible Leadership.
I mean, isn't that the idea? What?
What is the central idea?
(01:56):
Yeah,that's pretty close to the central idea.
You know,I think that, most of us would say, well,
if the world has changed,which obviously you've talked
about a lot in this show, then shouldn'twe have to change as a leader, too?
And I would say the answer is yes.
And yet, for the most part,most leaders are locked into the way
they've always done it
to what they think their style is,to what they think they're supposed to do.
(02:17):
Trends or habits are.
And my assertion is that,
there's notthere's not a right way to lead.
There's but in every situation,there's there's probably a best way
or a small number of best waysthat we could lead in that moment.
And, we need to figure out
how to understand what those momentslook like and how to lead in the best
way, not necessarilyin our most comfortable way.
(02:41):
Well, and
that getsus to kind of an important point,
which is
there's this notion that, you know,
returning to the office or,
remote work is kind of behind us,and we've done it.
And we've kind of moved on from that.
First of all, I mean,what do you say to that?
(03:04):
Well, I think that, what we've gotis a pendulum.
Right?
And we had we had a we had a pandemicand the pendulum went all the way to
the law, said you had to stay homefrom work, from the office,
to maybe we could make this work to
maybe we really think we ought to go backto the way it used to be.
(03:24):
But, you know, I remember youand I saying very early in the pandemic,
and I think you probably actually saidat first that the cat's out of the bag,
that, you know, you're never going toyou're never going to put that back in.
You were never going to goall the way back to where we were before.
And even though now, as we havethis conversation in January of 2025,
where it seems like an awful lot of big
(03:45):
organizations are saying you all need tocome on back to the office.
I don't think we'll ever goall the way back to where we once were.
I don't think that's possible.
I don't think it's likely.
And I don't even think it's necessary.
Well, and it does
fall on leadersto navigate their way through this.
(04:06):
I mean, youand I saw a report this morning that said,
while 80% of companieshave back to the office orders,
only 17% of themare actually enforcing the rules.
Or what's even kind of worse
is we've revertedto the stealth remote work
that we had in the before timeswhere, well, somebody kid is sick,
(04:30):
so we'll let her work from homeand, you know, somebody else
just, you know, he gets stuff done.
So we'll just let him slide and let it go.
And that lack of structurecan put a lot of pressure on, on and on.
Leader
puts a lot of pressure on a leaderputs a lot of pressure on individuals.
Right. Am I amI in the in-group that gets to stay home?
(04:52):
Am I not like, how does that all play?
There's a whole lot of stuffI think there, you know, to me, the whole
this whole pendulum swing.
I was mentioning Wayne and of courseyou and I have talked about this,
but to me, in In Long DistanceLeader, we talk about,
the three oh model and that leadershipis about outcomes, others and ourselves.
And I think so much of all of the
(05:14):
tumult, so much of the conversation
about what return to officelooks like and where, where it's happening
and what's going to happen withit has really been
a tension between outcomes and others.
Right?
So those who have saidwe need to come back to the office
have said we need thatso we can get the outcomes that we need.
And it was like we're fighting againstin some ways against others, the team
(05:37):
who in many cases would rather stay home
and and it's been framed as there'sgoing to be a winner and a loser.
The you know,and maybe outputs are winning
because we're going to have to come backor, or,
or when we weren't bringing people back,it's like, well,
we had to give in to othersso that they so we wouldn't lose them.
(05:58):
And so it's been framedtoo often as an as an either or choice,
and it's
been framed as a tensionbetween those two things.
And and, and in the new book,I would call that a flexor,
the idea of a flexor and,and the right answer, in this case,
to this conversation we're having here,is that,
(06:18):
like with any of the flexorsthat we could talk about, that
the right answer is rarely at either end,but it's somewhere in the middle.
Right.
And so that's why I don't thinkwe'll ever go all the way back,
because we, we havethe cat is out of that bag.
Right.You can't put the genie back in that
bottle or whatever,whatever you want to say.
And and the reality is that even thoughpeople might feel that tension,
(06:42):
that the leaders that are most effective,the leaders that are flexible will say,
what's the context?
Say, and where should we be leaningbetween those two
rather than we're going all the way backor we're never going back?
And I've never really been a proponentof either end of that spectrum.
But the right answeris somewhere in the middle, and different
answer for different organizationsand different teams, different work.
Yeah.
Let's talk aboutbecause you mentioned the three
(07:04):
oh model and all of our work in the longdistance,
work life seriescontains models that that are helpful.
And we didn't invent all of those modelsin long distance leader.
One of the most important thingsI think we did
was raise the notion of richnessversus scope,
which was researchthat came before you and I.
(07:25):
But we
extrapolated what that meantfor certain circumstances.
And you've done the same thingwith something
called the Orphan Model,
which is a really interestingstarting point.
And then we'll talk about what you've
added to and extrapolate it on to that.
But first of all, tell us
(07:46):
what that first model is,because first of all, it's in Welsh.
And Welsh may as well be Greek.
And there's too many consonants.
And help me out. Listen, you're the first.
This is the first show I've been on.
Where were the host said it.
Right. Can Evan,
Which is a which is a model that wasbuilt, by Dave Snowdon and others.
I want to certainly give him full credit.
(08:08):
And it's been it's really meant as a modelto help us make sense of the world. So,
if, if I put you someplace in
on the planet and tell you to leave,but if you don't have a map for leaving,
you don't know where to go,and you're stuck.
And so, as leaders,we find ourselves in a world,
and sometimes we don't really knowhow to make sense of it
because, you know,so we end up treating everything the same.
(08:31):
So the can have been model says there'ssort of four sort of domains in which,
a situation falls and they,they all start with the letter C.
And Wayne would laughthat Kevin likes alliteration.
But this is not my model, Wayne.
Just saying.
So the for.
Know we know why it appeals to you. Pedro.
Well, it's not the only reason.
It's just an added bonus.As it turns out. Wayne.
(08:53):
So the Kevin model says that situationsthat we find ourselves in are either
clear. The context is either
clear, it's complicated,it's complex, or it's chaotic.
And it relates to,
how much we know aboutor what we know about in the situation.
And from that, accordingto the great work of Snowden and others,
(09:13):
is to say, well, given that context,
what should we thenwhat is the best next step for us to take?
And the the problem is that as leaders,
we have typically been trained to lead
in situate contexts that are clear.
(09:34):
We know the information.There's an answer.
We pick the answer.We've got best practices.
I mean, listen,I worked in an organization
before I started this company at Chevron.
Well run.
Well respected, good companythat in that time
period over 30 years ago,the big focus was best practices.
And if the world is clearor relatively clear and
there are things we can figure out, thenbest practices that are a great way to go.
(09:56):
When the context is clear, that's great.
Also, in the context is clear,it's really easy for leaders to say,
I have the answer.
Let's go, everyone follow me and let's go.
But that's not the world we live inmost of the time.
And yet that's the that's thethat's the place where we end up spending,
where we think our time is.That's what leaders are doing.
Well.
And of course, thatleads to the idea of flexibility, right?
(10:19):
The ability to lead when there isa distinct roadmap is very different.
When you know it's March 17th of 2020
and the world blows up and we don't knowwhat the heck we're doing, right.
And so what you've done isyou've taken the Canavan model
and you have
added these things called flexors,and these are designed
(10:42):
to help a leader say, okay,this situation is really chaotic.
Here are the things I needto think about versus
there's a you know, the roadmap is clear.
So help us through the flexorsand what does that mean.
Yeah.
So let's just.
Take an example one. Right. So
(11:03):
so yeahso the idea of flexors are so it's easy
to say well make makes understandwhat the situation is.
And then lead accordingly.
Except that that's not very helpfulreally yet.
And so let's take an example.
So for years when I've asked leadersin groups I said would you listen.
Would you rather lead for compliance
(11:23):
or commitment?
And nearly every leader or reasonthat want to lead for commitment,
I want my team to be committedand all that stuff.
So there's a flexor complianceand commitment, right?
Okay.
So, I'd rather have my team be committed.
That sounds awesome.
And yet,what do most of us find we've experienced?
What do most?
In fact,I can ask those same leaders next.
Where does your leader lead you?
(11:45):
Do they lead you to being committedand engaged, or do they lead you to
at like just yes, boss.
Right.
Straight up mere compliance is yes sir.
Yes, ma'am.
Yes, boss.
Whatever you say, boss.
And for the most part, we don't thinkthat seems like that's what we want.
We'd really have peoplerather be committed, right? Okay, cool.
(12:07):
So does that mean thatwe should forget about compliance
and just focus on commitment?
I would say no.
Listen, if the if the worldif the moment is truly chaotic
and no one knowswhat's going, let's take March 17th, 2020,
right?
What everybody needed was for the bossto say, we got to do something,
what are we going to do?
And in that moment,they people were ready to comply.
(12:31):
Like there's nothing wrong with compliancein the right context in that moment.
Like, okay, that's what we're going to do.
We're going to send we're going to do this
and we're going to get computersto everybody.
And here's what's going to happen, okay.
But staying there and continuingto lead or act in that place of chaos
and stay in command and control.
Some people found that
(12:51):
didn't work very long,just like they found in other situations.
It doesn't work very well. Right?
So maybe, in the 1940s or 1950s,when most everything
was pretty well clear and things were anall of the knowns were known,
then people were more okaywith sort of following what the boss said.
(13:13):
And yet now that's not the way the worldlooks.
It's not the way the world acts.
There's more uncertainty.
It's more complicated and complex.
Which means that while back to the lectureitself,
the right answer is seldom
solely compliance or solely commitment.
But somewhere in between now, I would say,and we talk about in the book,
(13:36):
that in a in a worldthat's more complex or complicated,
we're probably going to lean moretoward the,
the commitment sidemakes a great deal of sense.
But, you know, sometimespeople don't need to be committed.
They just need to know where we're going.
And that's why.
And that's the example of it could be
(13:57):
directionally either way.
And that's okay.
Right.
People were fine with saying,hey, we're going to continue to do this.
But now notice
how many people haven't felt so goodabout the boss bosses of the world.
Simply people like us simply saying
we're going to bring you all backlike that hasn't worked so well,
because compliance aloneisn't necessarily the best approach
(14:21):
in this complexand complicated world we're in now.
Yeah, so.
We've got to be flexible and
how does that match up
with being consistent and and,
you know, accountable?
I mean
it sounds on the surfacelike there's a paradox there.
(14:46):
Oh I think there definitely is a paradoxthere.
Right.
And and so we could put consistentand flexible as a flex or two.
So here'sthe example that I use in the book.
And it's I think the best oneI've come up with to date.
And that islook at a tree, you know, a tree
that's, you know, ten, 15, 20 years old
and you would likely look at that treeand say, that tree's stable.
(15:09):
That's tree's consistent.
That tree's got longevity.
That tree's solid.
And it is it's deeply rooted.
And it's the roots that keep it solid.
And yet a tree that doesn'tisn't able to flex if its branches aren't
able to flex, not going to last very long.
And so the tree is both consistent,
(15:31):
stable, sturdy and flexible.
It's both of those things.
So in all of these caseswe think about a paradox
we need to stop thinking about, well,which one is it.
But how much of each one is it. Right.
So if we go back to the tree, it's stablebecause it's rooted.
So if we go back to say,
(15:51):
do we want leaders to be consistentor do we want leaders to be flexible?
I would say the answer, like a treeis yes, both
we a tree is stable and consistentbecause of its roots.
A leader needs to be consistentin their roots, which is their values,
their principles, the kinds of principlesyou've been talking about on the show,
(16:14):
in their
in their mission, of their organization,
in morality and ethics.
Like, those are the things that we must beconsistent on, but we must be flexible
as we've been talking aboutin the last 20 minutes or so on approach.
So the the what and thewhy are consistent.
(16:35):
The how is flexible.
Yeah.
That idea of the how beingwhere the flexibility comes
in, I think is really important.
Talk to me
about some communication challengesand then the strategies to deal with that.
(16:55):
How is communicationdifferent in a flexible leaders
approach than in onewho is more firmly rooted?
I think I think the first thing is,
you know, as you decide that,that you have the intention
of wanting to be flexible in approach,then you need that needs to be
(17:17):
one of the things that your organizationand your team knows that they understand.
Hey, we know what we can expect of Kevin,
and one of the thingswe're going to expect of Kevin
is that he's going to adaptbased on the situation as needed.
And I'd like to hope,our team would say that about me.
But I think the first part aboutcommunicating about it is for people.
We have to be
clear about our intention around it,and then we can share that with others.
(17:40):
Just like you've talked for yearsabout having clear expectations
about how we communicateand when we communicate.
This is just another examplethat is about the expectations
of how we're going to interact.
Relate to this, the ideathat we may have to be flexible and
and you know what that may mean
that I'm going to need to respond
(18:00):
in this situation in a waythat's not my natural
or first inclination.
And I think that that ends upbeing super healthy.
But, but we have to, as you said,have to get people to understand,
this this this is how we lead.
I'm going to put you on the spota little bit,
(18:22):
and I understand working with mewill turn almost anybody into Gumby.
And standing requiressome flexibility and some patience.
But aside from dealing with Wayne,which, you know,
I don't wish on anybody,but what have you found?
I took it unwillingly, Wayne.
(18:43):
Well, I understand that, but
what have you found in the last little
while is a flexorthat you've really had to exercise?
Maybe something that
you've had to be more flexible withthan you ever thought that you might.
I think that I've had to be,
(19:06):
I have to be.
I have to really work at,
one that is,
I am, I am sometimes I sometimes
need to be firmer, with folks than I thinkI sometimes am.
I will lean toward letting people
make their call, helping them,
(19:28):
helping them decide what they want to dowhen sometimes I need
to be a little clearer about,hey, this is what we need to do.
This is where we're going to focus.
And so I've had to work on,you know, at any time there's a situation
that you're facing that
you realize a better approachmight not be your natural inclination.
(19:49):
Those are all the timeswhen you're going to have to.
You're going to have to workat the flexing a bit more, right?
Otherwise, if we just go
to our first natural instinct,then we won't necessarily get,
we won't flex.
We'll just keep doingwhat we've always done.
We'll keep doingwhat the assessment we took
says we are, because that'sthe kind of leader that I am.
Right.
(20:09):
So it whenever,whenever we're forced by the situation
or the context to
adjust if we want better results.
Those are the those are the times.
And that's a, that's an example.
The first one that comes to my mind.
I think it's a perfectly good one in
knowing you as I do,I think that's probably the correct one.
(20:33):
We're going to wrap it up on this,
you know, it's funny, in our business,we teach leadership
and we teach organizationsaround the world.
And for a while,everything was in-person workshops.
And we were very focusedon kind of new leaders, supervisors.
And then all of a sudden it was remote.
(20:53):
And we were helping people do thatwith the books and long distance leader.
You know, you and I,
wrote that book in 2018 and seven
languages and thousands of copies later.
We've helped somepeople through that. And now
we're kind of
being told remote is done and everything.
(21:14):
It's kind of either office first or officemostly.
As we wrap it up.
How is flexible leadership
the key to navigatingwhatever this next thing is?
I'll say two things.
The first thing I want to sayis don't go back to what you and I said
(21:35):
at the very beginning about long distanceleader, which is if you've got one person
that's not in the office,you have a remote team, and
that's going to I mean,even if it's just the the once in a while.
Right?
Or the I got two sick kidslike that's never going away ever again.
The technology allows that.
So people are going to have to take PTOfor some of that. Right.
(21:57):
So and we're going to allow thatwhether we like it or not.
And I would say that that'sprobably a good thing for us to do that.
That would be a flexible approach.
So that's the first thing I would say.
The second thing I would say is, as you
if if we want to,
there's there's two important wordsin the subtitle of the book.
So the book is flexibleleadership navigate uncertainty
(22:19):
and lead with confidence.
And so those seem paradoxical oxymoronicas well.
Right.
Like uncertainty and confidence.
And to methe confidence comes from knowing that
if the situation is uncertain,
which we know they are and will be like,
(22:40):
I think we can be confidentthey will continue to be uncertain.
So we build confidence in thatby having a way to navigate.
And the way we navigateis what we've talked about
having a sense, a way to make senseof the situation, providing context
and then use flexors to help us,adjust in that moment.
And so to me, the confidencecomes from having a playbook
(23:04):
to deal with
the uncertainty, not because that meansthe uncertainty goes away,
but that we knowthat we have a way to work through it
with our teams, not in spite of our teams,
not for our teams, but with our teams.
Thank you so much for that, Kevin.
(23:24):
I just want to tell our listenersthey can learn more about the book,
including getting some really cool dealson bulk
buys and discounts on major
amounts of the book at Kevineikenberry.com/flexible-leadership.
(23:47):
I haven't said this to you,so I will say it now
while everybody is listening.
I think this book is a logical next step.
I think it is the next step.
You know, remote leadership,the teams long distance
leader, all of that good stuffwas the what's happening.
And you know, what do we do?
(24:09):
But how we do it and how we adjustand how we lead from this point forward
is going to be far more critical,because now we know what we're up against
and live push up against.
This week.
I appreciate that,and I would like to think that this is
something that, you know, isnot is not tied to a situation
(24:30):
like where people are workingor when they're working, but rather about,
you know, giving
us a way to make sense of any contextso that we can make better choices
or more informed choices.
And really,it comes down to making either or choices.
Not excuse me, making both and choices.
Not either or choices.
And I really dohope people will go to Kevin
I read at com slash flexiblehyphen leadership because as Wayne said,
(24:52):
there's all sorts of waysto get all kinds of cool stuff.
You buy multiple copies of the book,but you can get a single copy there.
You can get a sample chapterthere and all sorts other stuff.
Well, you'll do that.Thanks for having me, Wayne.
As always,and I've been saying this for ten years.
Thank you for being had.
Ladies and gentlemen,that is Kevin Eikenberry.
(25:14):
More on that in a moment.
I am going to now share with yousome news that
I don't know how it's going to affect you,but it is going to affect you.
If you are listening to this showfor over 100 and some odd and yes,
some are odder than others episodes,we have,
(25:35):
brought you the best information we can,whether it's Morris and I
sharing the conversationsthat people have about
remote and hybrid work.
Talking to very, very smart people,
who are experts in the fieldand are making it work every day.
And in many ways,we have kind of accomplished
(25:58):
what we set out to do, which was helppeople
make the transition to this new,
very complex, complicated worldthat Kevin was talking about.
And therefore, this is technically
the last episode ofthe long distance work life.
(26:18):
The the website is
going to be up for a long timefor the foreseeable future.
Show notes to all the showsthat we have put up in the past.
Show notes to this oneso you can get access to Kevin
and links to the bookand to flexible leadership.
Going forward, new
(26:39):
episodes of this show that we dokind of, as good ideas occur to us,
will be rolledinto the remarkable leadership Podcast.
If you are not listening to Kevin'spodcast,
get on it.
But one of the thingsthat we are going to do
starting in February isI am doing a six part
(27:02):
series called The Evolving Workplace,
and we're going to look at
we're going to startwith the first episode.
How did we get here?
How did Remote and hybrid workcome to be a thing?
Why is it so chaotic?
We're going to talk about the differentapproaches that organizations can take.
The technology and what that means.
(27:24):
And then we're goingto look very carefully at
what do organizations need to consideras the workplace continues to evolve?
What do leaders need to consider,and what do individuals need to know and
think in order to, yes, thrive and survivein the always evolving workplace?
(27:45):
So, thank you for listening.
On behalf of Marissa and myself,we appreciate your listenership.
We appreciate your active participationin the discussions
and the shows and the show ideas.
We hope that you will follow us
over here
to the Remarkable Leadership Podcastand understand
(28:09):
that remote and hybrid work is now partof the overall leadership picture.
As Kevin was talking about.
So on behalf of Marissa and myself,thank you.
We appreciate you and we look forwardto seeing you down the road.
Don't let the weasels getyou down. Have a great week.
Hi, everybody.
Welcome toanother episode of Long Distance Worklife,
the show where we need to help you.
Do more than survive,but thrive in the crazy,
evolving world of work.
Our guest today,because it is a Marisa-less episode,
but our guest today is somebodyvery familiar to most of you.
(00:32):
You have heard his name,if not actually met him.
That is, our bossand my coauthor, author, Kevin Eikenberry.
And when the interview is over,I would really love you to stick around.
I have an important announcementto make at the end of the show
that I hope you will stick around forand heed.
(00:52):
That being said,
we are going to introduce the lovelyand talented Kevin Eikenberry.
He is the brains behind the KevinEikenberry group.
He is also my coauthor on the three books
in the Long Distance Work Life series,Long Distance Leader, Long Distance
Teammate, Long Distance Team,and now Circling Back Again,
(01:15):
with the updated versionof long distance leader.
But he's not here to talk aboutany of that stuff.
He is here to talk about his latest book,Flexible Leadership.
Kevin, how are you?
Hey. I'm good, I'm good.
I'm glad to be here.
It's nice man.
This side of the mic.
Yeah it is.
(01:35):
You do as much of this or more than I do.
And it's,
It's sometimes tiring,but I know you are energized
because you've got a new bookthat you're very excited about.
Let's start with the titleflexible Leadership.
I mean, isn't that the idea? What?
What is the central idea?
(01:56):
Yeah,that's pretty close to the central idea.
You know,I think that, most of us would say, well,
if the world has changed,which obviously you've talked
about a lot in this show, then shouldn'twe have to change as a leader, too?
And I would say the answer is yes.
And yet, for the most part,most leaders are locked into the way
they've always done it
to what they think their style is,to what they think they're supposed to do.
(02:17):
Trends or habits are.
And my assertion is that,
there's notthere's not a right way to lead.
There's but in every situation,there's there's probably a best way
or a small number of best waysthat we could lead in that moment.
And, we need to figure out
how to understand what those momentslook like and how to lead in the best
way, not necessarilyin our most comfortable way.
(02:41):
Well, and
that getsus to kind of an important point,
which is
there's this notion that, you know,
returning to the office or,
remote work is kind of behind us,and we've done it.
And we've kind of moved on from that.
First of all, I mean,what do you say to that?
(03:04):
Well, I think that, what we've gotis a pendulum.
Right?
And we had we had a we had a pandemicand the pendulum went all the way to
the law, said you had to stay homefrom work, from the office,
to maybe we could make this work to
maybe we really think we ought to go backto the way it used to be.
(03:24):
But, you know, I remember youand I saying very early in the pandemic,
and I think you probably actually saidat first that the cat's out of the bag,
that, you know, you're never going toyou're never going to put that back in.
You were never going to goall the way back to where we were before.
And even though now, as we havethis conversation in January of 2025,
where it seems like an awful lot of big
(03:45):
organizations are saying you all need tocome on back to the office.
I don't think we'll ever goall the way back to where we once were.
I don't think that's possible.
I don't think it's likely.
And I don't even think it's necessary.
Well, and it does
fall on leadersto navigate their way through this.
(04:06):
I mean, youand I saw a report this morning that said,
while 80% of companieshave back to the office orders,
only 17% of themare actually enforcing the rules.
Or what's even kind of worse
is we've revertedto the stealth remote work
that we had in the before timeswhere, well, somebody kid is sick,
(04:30):
so we'll let her work from homeand, you know, somebody else
just, you know, he gets stuff done.
So we'll just let him slide and let it go.
And that lack of structurecan put a lot of pressure on, on and on.
Leader
puts a lot of pressure on a leaderputs a lot of pressure on individuals.
Right. Am I amI in the in-group that gets to stay home?
(04:52):
Am I not like, how does that all play?
There's a whole lot of stuffI think there, you know, to me, the whole
this whole pendulum swing.
I was mentioning Wayne and of courseyou and I have talked about this,
but to me, in In Long DistanceLeader, we talk about,
the three oh model and that leadershipis about outcomes, others and ourselves.
And I think so much of all of the
(05:14):
tumult, so much of the conversation
about what return to officelooks like and where, where it's happening
and what's going to happen withit has really been
a tension between outcomes and others.
Right?
So those who have saidwe need to come back to the office
have said we need thatso we can get the outcomes that we need.
And it was like we're fighting againstin some ways against others, the team
(05:37):
who in many cases would rather stay home
and and it's been framed as there'sgoing to be a winner and a loser.
The you know,and maybe outputs are winning
because we're going to have to come backor, or,
or when we weren't bringing people back,it's like, well,
we had to give in to othersso that they so we wouldn't lose them.
(05:58):
And so it's been framedtoo often as an as an either or choice,
and it's
been framed as a tensionbetween those two things.
And and, and in the new book,I would call that a flexor,
the idea of a flexor and,and the right answer, in this case,
to this conversation we're having here,is that,
(06:18):
like with any of the flexorsthat we could talk about, that
the right answer is rarely at either end,but it's somewhere in the middle.
Right.
And so that's why I don't thinkwe'll ever go all the way back,
because we, we havethe cat is out of that bag.
Right.You can't put the genie back in that
bottle or whatever,whatever you want to say.
And and the reality is that even thoughpeople might feel that tension,
(06:42):
that the leaders that are most effective,the leaders that are flexible will say,
what's the context?
Say, and where should we be leaningbetween those two
rather than we're going all the way backor we're never going back?
And I've never really been a proponentof either end of that spectrum.
But the right answeris somewhere in the middle, and different
answer for different organizationsand different teams, different work.
Yeah.
Let's talk aboutbecause you mentioned the three
(07:04):
oh model and all of our work in the longdistance,
work life seriescontains models that that are helpful.
And we didn't invent all of those modelsin long distance leader.
One of the most important thingsI think we did
was raise the notion of richnessversus scope,
which was researchthat came before you and I.
(07:25):
But we
extrapolated what that meantfor certain circumstances.
And you've done the same thingwith something
called the Orphan Model,
which is a really interestingstarting point.
And then we'll talk about what you've
added to and extrapolate it on to that.
But first of all, tell us
(07:46):
what that first model is,because first of all, it's in Welsh.
And Welsh may as well be Greek.
And there's too many consonants.
And help me out. Listen, you're the first.
This is the first show I've been on.
Where were the host said it.
Right. Can Evan,
Which is a which is a model that wasbuilt, by Dave Snowdon and others.
I want to certainly give him full credit.
(08:08):
And it's been it's really meant as a modelto help us make sense of the world. So,
if, if I put you someplace in
on the planet and tell you to leave,but if you don't have a map for leaving,
you don't know where to go,and you're stuck.
And so, as leaders,we find ourselves in a world,
and sometimes we don't really knowhow to make sense of it
because, you know,so we end up treating everything the same.
(08:31):
So the can have been model says there'ssort of four sort of domains in which,
a situation falls and they,they all start with the letter C.
And Wayne would laughthat Kevin likes alliteration.
But this is not my model, Wayne.
Just saying.
So the for.
Know we know why it appeals to you. Pedro.
Well, it's not the only reason.
It's just an added bonus.As it turns out. Wayne.
(08:53):
So the Kevin model says that situationsthat we find ourselves in are either
clear. The context is either
clear, it's complicated,it's complex, or it's chaotic.
And it relates to,
how much we know aboutor what we know about in the situation.
And from that, accordingto the great work of Snowden and others,
(09:13):
is to say, well, given that context,
what should we thenwhat is the best next step for us to take?
And the the problem is that as leaders,
we have typically been trained to lead
in situate contexts that are clear.
(09:34):
We know the information.There's an answer.
We pick the answer.We've got best practices.
I mean, listen,I worked in an organization
before I started this company at Chevron.
Well run.
Well respected, good companythat in that time
period over 30 years ago,the big focus was best practices.
And if the world is clearor relatively clear and
there are things we can figure out, thenbest practices that are a great way to go.
(09:56):
When the context is clear, that's great.
Also, in the context is clear,it's really easy for leaders to say,
I have the answer.
Let's go, everyone follow me and let's go.
But that's not the world we live inmost of the time.
And yet that's the that's thethat's the place where we end up spending,
where we think our time is.That's what leaders are doing.
Well.
And of course, thatleads to the idea of flexibility, right?
(10:19):
The ability to lead when there isa distinct roadmap is very different.
When you know it's March 17th of 2020
and the world blows up and we don't knowwhat the heck we're doing, right.
And so what you've done isyou've taken the Canavan model
and you have
added these things called flexors,and these are designed
(10:42):
to help a leader say, okay,this situation is really chaotic.
Here are the things I needto think about versus
there's a you know, the roadmap is clear.
So help us through the flexorsand what does that mean.
Yeah.
So let's just.
Take an example one. Right. So
(11:03):
so yeahso the idea of flexors are so it's easy
to say well make makes understandwhat the situation is.
And then lead accordingly.
Except that that's not very helpfulreally yet.
And so let's take an example.
So for years when I've asked leadersin groups I said would you listen.
Would you rather lead for compliance
(11:23):
or commitment?
And nearly every leader or reasonthat want to lead for commitment,
I want my team to be committedand all that stuff.
So there's a flexor complianceand commitment, right?
Okay.
So, I'd rather have my team be committed.
That sounds awesome.
And yet,what do most of us find we've experienced?
What do most?
In fact,I can ask those same leaders next.
Where does your leader lead you?
(11:45):
Do they lead you to being committedand engaged, or do they lead you to
at like just yes, boss.
Right.
Straight up mere compliance is yes sir.
Yes, ma'am.
Yes, boss.
Whatever you say, boss.
And for the most part, we don't thinkthat seems like that's what we want.
We'd really have peoplerather be committed, right? Okay, cool.
(12:07):
So does that mean thatwe should forget about compliance
and just focus on commitment?
I would say no.
Listen, if the if the worldif the moment is truly chaotic
and no one knowswhat's going, let's take March 17th, 2020,
right?
What everybody needed was for the bossto say, we got to do something,
what are we going to do?
And in that moment,they people were ready to comply.
(12:31):
Like there's nothing wrong with compliancein the right context in that moment.
Like, okay, that's what we're going to do.
We're going to send we're going to do this
and we're going to get computersto everybody.
And here's what's going to happen, okay.
But staying there and continuingto lead or act in that place of chaos
and stay in command and control.
Some people found that
(12:51):
didn't work very long,just like they found in other situations.
It doesn't work very well. Right?
So maybe, in the 1940s or 1950s,when most everything
was pretty well clear and things were anall of the knowns were known,
then people were more okaywith sort of following what the boss said.
(13:13):
And yet now that's not the way the worldlooks.
It's not the way the world acts.
There's more uncertainty.
It's more complicated and complex.
Which means that while back to the lectureitself,
the right answer is seldom
solely compliance or solely commitment.
But somewhere in between now, I would say,and we talk about in the book,
(13:36):
that in a in a worldthat's more complex or complicated,
we're probably going to lean moretoward the,
the commitment sidemakes a great deal of sense.
But, you know, sometimespeople don't need to be committed.
They just need to know where we're going.
And that's why.
And that's the example of it could be
(13:57):
directionally either way.
And that's okay.
Right.
People were fine with saying,hey, we're going to continue to do this.
But now notice
how many people haven't felt so goodabout the boss bosses of the world.
Simply people like us simply saying
we're going to bring you all backlike that hasn't worked so well,
because compliance aloneisn't necessarily the best approach
(14:21):
in this complexand complicated world we're in now.
Yeah, so.
We've got to be flexible and
how does that match up
with being consistent and and,
you know, accountable?
I mean
it sounds on the surfacelike there's a paradox there.
(14:46):
Oh I think there definitely is a paradoxthere.
Right.
And and so we could put consistentand flexible as a flex or two.
So here'sthe example that I use in the book.
And it's I think the best oneI've come up with to date.
And that islook at a tree, you know, a tree
that's, you know, ten, 15, 20 years old
and you would likely look at that treeand say, that tree's stable.
(15:09):
That's tree's consistent.
That tree's got longevity.
That tree's solid.
And it is it's deeply rooted.
And it's the roots that keep it solid.
And yet a tree that doesn'tisn't able to flex if its branches aren't
able to flex, not going to last very long.
And so the tree is both consistent,
(15:31):
stable, sturdy and flexible.
It's both of those things.
So in all of these caseswe think about a paradox
we need to stop thinking about, well,which one is it.
But how much of each one is it. Right.
So if we go back to the tree, it's stablebecause it's rooted.
So if we go back to say,
(15:51):
do we want leaders to be consistentor do we want leaders to be flexible?
I would say the answer, like a treeis yes, both
we a tree is stable and consistentbecause of its roots.
A leader needs to be consistentin their roots, which is their values,
their principles, the kinds of principlesyou've been talking about on the show,
(16:14):
in their
in their mission, of their organization,
in morality and ethics.
Like, those are the things that we must beconsistent on, but we must be flexible
as we've been talking aboutin the last 20 minutes or so on approach.
So the the what and thewhy are consistent.
(16:35):
The how is flexible.
Yeah.
That idea of the how beingwhere the flexibility comes
in, I think is really important.
Talk to me
about some communication challengesand then the strategies to deal with that.
(16:55):
How is communicationdifferent in a flexible leaders
approach than in onewho is more firmly rooted?
I think I think the first thing is,
you know, as you decide that,that you have the intention
of wanting to be flexible in approach,then you need that needs to be
(17:17):
one of the things that your organizationand your team knows that they understand.
Hey, we know what we can expect of Kevin,
and one of the thingswe're going to expect of Kevin
is that he's going to adaptbased on the situation as needed.
And I'd like to hope,our team would say that about me.
But I think the first part aboutcommunicating about it is for people.
We have to be
clear about our intention around it,and then we can share that with others.
(17:40):
Just like you've talked for yearsabout having clear expectations
about how we communicateand when we communicate.
This is just another examplethat is about the expectations
of how we're going to interact.
Relate to this, the ideathat we may have to be flexible and
and you know what that may mean
that I'm going to need to respond
(18:00):
in this situation in a waythat's not my natural
or first inclination.
And I think that that ends upbeing super healthy.
But, but we have to, as you said,have to get people to understand,
this this this is how we lead.
I'm going to put you on the spota little bit,
(18:22):
and I understand working with mewill turn almost anybody into Gumby.
And standing requiressome flexibility and some patience.
But aside from dealing with Wayne,which, you know,
I don't wish on anybody,but what have you found?
I took it unwillingly, Wayne.
(18:43):
Well, I understand that, but
what have you found in the last little
while is a flexorthat you've really had to exercise?
Maybe something that
you've had to be more flexible withthan you ever thought that you might.
I think that I've had to be,
(19:06):
I have to be.
I have to really work at,
one that is,
I am, I am sometimes I sometimes
need to be firmer, with folks than I thinkI sometimes am.
I will lean toward letting people
make their call, helping them,
(19:28):
helping them decide what they want to dowhen sometimes I need
to be a little clearer about,hey, this is what we need to do.
This is where we're going to focus.
And so I've had to work on,you know, at any time there's a situation
that you're facing that
you realize a better approachmight not be your natural inclination.
(19:49):
Those are all the timeswhen you're going to have to.
You're going to have to workat the flexing a bit more, right?
Otherwise, if we just go
to our first natural instinct,then we won't necessarily get,
we won't flex.
We'll just keep doingwhat we've always done.
We'll keep doingwhat the assessment we took
says we are, because that'sthe kind of leader that I am.
Right.
(20:09):
So it whenever,whenever we're forced by the situation
or the context to
adjust if we want better results.
Those are the those are the times.
And that's a, that's an example.
The first one that comes to my mind.
I think it's a perfectly good one in
knowing you as I do,I think that's probably the correct one.
(20:33):
We're going to wrap it up on this,
you know, it's funny, in our business,we teach leadership
and we teach organizationsaround the world.
And for a while,everything was in-person workshops.
And we were very focusedon kind of new leaders, supervisors.
And then all of a sudden it was remote.
(20:53):
And we were helping people do thatwith the books and long distance leader.
You know, you and I,
wrote that book in 2018 and seven
languages and thousands of copies later.
We've helped somepeople through that. And now
we're kind of
being told remote is done and everything.
(21:14):
It's kind of either office first or officemostly.
As we wrap it up.
How is flexible leadership
the key to navigatingwhatever this next thing is?
I'll say two things.
The first thing I want to sayis don't go back to what you and I said
(21:35):
at the very beginning about long distanceleader, which is if you've got one person
that's not in the office,you have a remote team, and
that's going to I mean,even if it's just the the once in a while.
Right?
Or the I got two sick kidslike that's never going away ever again.
The technology allows that.
So people are going to have to take PTOfor some of that. Right.
(21:57):
So and we're going to allow thatwhether we like it or not.
And I would say that that'sprobably a good thing for us to do that.
That would be a flexible approach.
So that's the first thing I would say.
The second thing I would say is, as you
if if we want to,
there's there's two important wordsin the subtitle of the book.
So the book is flexibleleadership navigate uncertainty
(22:19):
and lead with confidence.
And so those seem paradoxical oxymoronicas well.
Right.
Like uncertainty and confidence.
And to methe confidence comes from knowing that
if the situation is uncertain,
which we know they are and will be like,
(22:40):
I think we can be confidentthey will continue to be uncertain.
So we build confidence in thatby having a way to navigate.
And the way we navigateis what we've talked about
having a sense, a way to make senseof the situation, providing context
and then use flexors to help us,adjust in that moment.
And so to me, the confidencecomes from having a playbook
(23:04):
to deal with
the uncertainty, not because that meansthe uncertainty goes away,
but that we knowthat we have a way to work through it
with our teams, not in spite of our teams,
not for our teams, but with our teams.
Thank you so much for that, Kevin.
(23:24):
I just want to tell our listenersthey can learn more about the book,
including getting some really cool dealson bulk
buys and discounts on major
amounts of the book at Kevineikenberry.com/flexible-leadership.
(23:47):
I haven't said this to you,so I will say it now
while everybody is listening.
I think this book is a logical next step.
I think it is the next step.
You know, remote leadership,the teams long distance
leader, all of that good stuffwas the what's happening.
And you know, what do we do?
(24:09):
But how we do it and how we adjustand how we lead from this point forward
is going to be far more critical,because now we know what we're up against
and live push up against.
This week.
I appreciate that,and I would like to think that this is
something that, you know, isnot is not tied to a situation
(24:30):
like where people are workingor when they're working, but rather about,
you know, giving
us a way to make sense of any contextso that we can make better choices
or more informed choices.
And really,it comes down to making either or choices.
Not excuse me, making both and choices.
Not either or choices.
And I really dohope people will go to Kevin
I read at com slash flexiblehyphen leadership because as Wayne said,
(24:52):
there's all sorts of waysto get all kinds of cool stuff.
You buy multiple copies of the book,but you can get a single copy there.
You can get a sample chapterthere and all sorts other stuff.
Well, you'll do that.Thanks for having me, Wayne.
As always,and I've been saying this for ten years.
Thank you for being had.
Ladies and gentlemen,that is Kevin Eikenberry.
(25:14):
More on that in a moment.
I am going to now share with yousome news that
I don't know how it's going to affect you,but it is going to affect you.
If you are listening to this showfor over 100 and some odd and yes,
some are odder than others episodes,we have,
(25:35):
brought you the best information we can,whether it's Morris and I
sharing the conversationsthat people have about
remote and hybrid work.
Talking to very, very smart people,
who are experts in the fieldand are making it work every day.
And in many ways,we have kind of accomplished
(25:58):
what we set out to do, which was helppeople
make the transition to this new,
very complex, complicated worldthat Kevin was talking about.
And therefore, this is technically
the last episode ofthe long distance work life.
(26:18):
The the website is
going to be up for a long timefor the foreseeable future.
Show notes to all the showsthat we have put up in the past.
Show notes to this oneso you can get access to Kevin
and links to the bookand to flexible leadership.
Going forward, new
(26:39):
episodes of this show that we dokind of, as good ideas occur to us,
will be rolledinto the remarkable leadership Podcast.
If you are not listening to Kevin'spodcast,
get on it.
But one of the thingsthat we are going to do
starting in February isI am doing a six part
(27:02):
series called The Evolving Workplace,
and we're going to look at
we're going to startwith the first episode.
How did we get here?
How did Remote and hybrid workcome to be a thing?
Why is it so chaotic?
We're going to talk about the differentapproaches that organizations can take.
The technology and what that means.
(27:24):
And then we're goingto look very carefully at
what do organizations need to consideras the workplace continues to evolve?
What do leaders need to consider,and what do individuals need to know and
think in order to, yes, thrive and survivein the always evolving workplace?
(27:45):
So, thank you for listening.
On behalf of Marissa and myself,we appreciate your listenership.
We appreciate your active participationin the discussions
and the shows and the show ideas.
We hope that you will follow us
over here
to the Remarkable Leadership Podcastand understand
(28:09):
that remote and hybrid work is now partof the overall leadership picture.
As Kevin was talking about.
So on behalf of Marissa and myself,thank you.
We appreciate you and we look forwardto seeing you down the road.
Don't let the weasels getyou down. Have a great week.
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