May 26, 2025 • 57 mins
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Heather Brown's journey from surviving childhood abuse to becoming a fierce advocate and trial lawyer is one of the most powerful stories of resilience and purpose you'll ever hear. In this episode of Making Maverick Moves, Heather shares how her trauma became her motivation to prosecute child predators, change institutional policies, and support survivors through both criminal and civil law.
If you or someone you know has ever faced adversity, this episode is a must-watch. Heather’s story is not just one of survival—it’s a roadmap to justice, empowerment, and change.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Today's guest is the very embodimentof a maverick.
(00:04):
Moves.
Heather Brown's life is a testamentto transforming unimagined, knowable pain
into unstoppable strength and justice.
As a child, Heather was silencedby the trauma of sexual abuse.
A power dynamicdesigned to keep her voiceless.
Yet instead of succumbingto that darkness,
(00:27):
she harnessed her pain to fuel her resolveto fight against child predators.
Her decision to become a triallawyer was her maverick move
a bold, unyielding commitment to ensure
that those who sought to exploitchildren are held fully accountable.
Over 23 years at the Orange CountyDistrict Attorney's office.
(00:52):
Heather prosecuted high profilecases against violent criminals.
And today, as a trustedmember of Greenberg Gross LLP,
she continues to dismantle systems
that enable sexual abuse.
Her journey from survivor
to champion is not just an inspiringstory.
(01:15):
It's a call to action.
Today, Heather shareshow she transformed her
deepest wounds into her greatest weapon.
Setting an example for every one of us
to reclaim power in the face of injustice.
My name is Gina Osborneand I'm an Army veteran.
I spent six years during the end of theCold War as a counterintelligence agent.
(01:40):
I was appointed as an FBI agent,and during my 22 year
career, worked everythingfrom Asian organized crime to terrorism.
I became the assistant special agentin charge of cyber and computer forensics.
And then I came out of retirementand spent two years
as the safety and security officerat la metro.
(02:01):
Now I'm here to helpyou make your maverick move.
the show, Heather.
I view you as a maverick.
Because your story is so phenomenaland everything that you have done,
you went from a victim of childsexual abuse to becoming
a prosecutor to go after the predatorswho do that to children.
(02:24):
So how did that all come about?
Wow. Well, that's a loaded question.
There's a lot of things that happenedalong the way.
But, you know, when I was younger,I was abused by our next door
neighbor, and I, he was alsoour landlord, and I never told anyone.
I kept that secret deep inside mefor at least 18 years,
(02:44):
until I learned from my motherthat he had passed away.
And she was, like, telling me, like,kind of like, oh, honey, you know, Mr.
Ryder diedand I was like, that disgusting pig.
And all of a sudden,this kind of venom came out of me
that I didn't even realizewas inside of me.
And so, it wasn't in that moment,
(03:05):
you know, that was kind of just reallywhen I, the abuse kind of came back to me
was like, wow, you know, why didn't I tell anyone?
Because my mom had asked me that question,
and it kind ofjust sat with me for a while.
And then as I was in college,I was going through, you know, my,
you know, trying to get my careerpath on board.
And I wanted to, you know, save the world.
(03:26):
And I had all these grand plans.
I was going to be a parole officer.
And then I was going to help, you know,drug addicts with their addictions. And
I just found my way into, like,
a moment where I hadI was a waitress, actually,
and the night manager said to me one day,you know, you've loved to argue so much.
(03:48):
Have you ever thoughtabout being an attorney?
And I was like, no.
And so fast forward like two weeks later,
I was, you know, sitting there workingin this chemical dependency center.
And I just looked around at everyonein the room and thought,
oh my God, you all need to be locked upand have the keys thrown away,
because I was just sickened by how,people, you know,
just the depravity of humanity,how people can do
(04:09):
horrible thingsto the people that they love.
Never mind just strangers.
And that was kind of the defining momentwhen I decided to become an attorney.
And then fast forward, I,
you know, work my way into the DA'soffice in Orange County. And
as I got older
and I learned more about sexual abuse,like when I was,
(04:31):
you know, handling some cases,like just lower level crimes.
And I once I learned more about abuse and,
you know, just
how predators operate,
I started to have a tremendoussense of guilt come over me.
Like that was more the traumathat I suffered from my sexual abuse.
(04:52):
It was kind of like the guiltand the shame,
not about having been sexually abused,
because I never really shared itwith anyone.
But what really affected methe most was the guilt of knowing that
this predator,he actually had a little basement,
our basements were attached,and he had all these games and fun things
(05:12):
for young kids,and just really enticed all the children
in the neighborhoodto come over there and play.
And, you know,when the kids that I was playing with
were distracted,that's when the abuse would happen.
And it happened like with other peoplearound in the house.
And, you know, one time
he even I rememberhe was, doing some horrible things to me.
(05:33):
And his wife was literally
like taking a nap on the couch in the roomright next to us.
And so,
I just it just
kept can't that was what really played,replayed in my mind was
it wasn't so much what he had done to meas much as it of
it was that,
I'd never told anyone.
(05:53):
And now I saw this pattern.
I saw who he was for, who he really wasand what he was doing, and I thought,
oh my God, how many kidsgot sexually abused after me?
Because I never said anything, becauseI didn't have the courage to say anything.
And that was really what affected meby the sexual abuse was the guilt
and shame about not telling anyoneto stop it from happening to someone else.
(06:17):
And so I then in that momentdecided, like, I'm going all in on this,
I'm going to go and I'm going to workin the sexual assault unit
if they'll have me,
and I'm going to do everything I canto make sure
this doesn't happen to anyone else,almost as a way to kind of almost,
you know, resolve myself of the guiltof having not said anything.
(06:39):
But as I got into the unitand I started working with children,
I was assigned to this federally fundedgrant caseload.
So all my victims were ten and under.
They were all like little kidsgetting raped and sodomized.
And it was pretty gruesome,you know, facts on every case that I had,
I just
realized in that momentthat everything that had happened to me
(07:02):
was really,I think so that I could help other people.
But that courage that it takesbecause not only there's
I was in charge of the FBI's CrimesAgainst Children program in Los Angeles
for seven years, and I didn't lookat the child pornography.
All I had to dowas probably see two photos,
and that team had everythingthey needed to do their job.
(07:25):
But I know how difficult that job is.
Number one.
But for you to have that added burdenof having that trauma
that you have to work through atthe same time that you're having to deal
with these predators.
And you talked about that predatorand the characteristics.
And it all started,it seemed, with that power differential.
(07:47):
Yeah.
That's usually where especially I mean,
when when you're a childobviously that's where the abuse occurs.
I mean I'm sorry.That's where it all starts.
There is a power differentialand that's what creates that's called
child sexual abuse.Accommodation syndrome.
Where to the outside worldit actually looks like,
most people, adults who don't understandthe dynamic would think, well,
(08:09):
why did you keep going back over there?
Why would you keep goingto this little playland if you knew
this guy was capable of doing that to you?
And what a lot of people don't understandis because there's this power
differential,because the perpetrator is generally 90%
of the time someone that you know,you trust and you love,
and that's what they use ato keep you quiet.
(08:32):
And that's also where the psychologicaldilemma comes for the child in that, like,
I hate what this guy's doing to me,but I actually like him.
Aside from what he's doing to me.
And it could be your uncle, your cousin,your neighbor, your dad, your anybody.
I'm using man as an example,but generally speaking,
it's mostly men that are perpetrators.
(08:53):
Although I have seen womenwho are perpetrators. But
that power
differential is really the keyto keeping the kid quiet,
because oftentimes it's
someone who's providing somethingfor the child that they're not getting.
And that's whythey hone in on people who are, you know,
have a single parent, right,where there's no father figure around.
(09:15):
And so that person, which I did not have,my dad had passed away
when I was nine from suicide.
And, my mom was raising us.
She was a bartender and working reallyhard to, you know, make ends meet for us.
And so here was a guy who was providing,like, fun, like kiddy lands.
He let me have soda,which I wasn't allowed to have at home.
(09:37):
Chips.
I know it sounds dumb, butthose are things that kids think about.
Like,oh, and he'd take me to the train station.
So he was giving me attentionthat I wasn't getting from a male figure.
And so there was another aspect to it,which
this is all in hindsight,because when I look back on the abuse,
I keep asking myself, orI used to ask myself, why didn't I tell?
(09:59):
And I knew that my motherwas very protective
and a mama bear,and she would have killed that guy.
And in my little brain,you know, I was seven years old.
I was like, my mom will kill him.
And then I won't have my mom either.
And then,
you know, my dad was absent, soI was certainly wasn't going to tell him.
My brothers would have ripped a guy apartfrom limb to limb.
But I always thought,but then they're going to get in trouble
(10:20):
and it's going to be my fault.
And more importantly,back to the power differential.
He was our landlordand so I, in my mind thought,
this is why we have a place to liveis because of him.
And if I get him in trouble or I tell,we're not going to have a place to live
and it's going to be all my fault.
And that was my little kid brainthinking about, why I didn't tell.
(10:42):
And that's what perpetrate and predators,especially the ones you know and trust.
They use that power differentialto keep you quiet.
And, you know, oftentimesperpetrators will also
kind of get something on the kid,like maybe they'll let him drink alcohol
or they'll haven't let him smoke a cigaretor look at porn or watch a dirty movie.
(11:02):
Things that the kid knowsthat they would get in trouble for.
And so they create that dynamicso that if, in fact, they do tell
the secret of what's happening sexually,then they're going to,
fear that they're going to get in troublefor like, well, he's
going to tell my mom that I drank a beer
and that I'm really goingto get in trouble.
Yeah.
And as you know, they go through thisentire grooming process
(11:24):
and they put themselves in positionswhere they have the access to kids.
I work the case I will never forget in1997, the Anthony Martinez kidnaping case.
And he was ultimately murderedby the predator who who kidnaped him.
And so we were out talkingto all of the 296 registrants,
and it floored me how, you know,this was the junior league bowling coach
(11:49):
and the soccer coach and and even,you know, you hear the stories about how
men will go on these dating sitesand they'll choose
women who have childrento have access to the kids.
So it's really alarmingwhen you think about how predicated
and predictable their behaviors are,because it's working 100%.
And, you know, a lot of people are like,
(12:11):
what's up with all these coachesand teachers?
And, you know, there'sso many of them in our school and it's
it's exactly what you were talking about.
That's the whole thing,is that they need access to children.
If they can't find
some woman on the internet who has someonewho's in their desired age group,
they have to find an occupationor position and to get access to children.
(12:33):
It's all about access to children.
And so you will find them in the schooldistricts.
You will find them on, you know,
coaching and and in areaswhere you find lots of children.
So, counterintuitively, the placesthat parents think their children are
the most safe are actually the placeswhere they should be on high alert.
So do you remember a moment
(12:55):
where that courage, because it tooka tremendous amount of courage for you
to step in that direction as a prosecutor,to go after those predators?
Was there a moment that you rememberor something that really kind of
made you decide that this is this is whereI'm going, and I'm going there now,
as far as the moment where I
(13:16):
decided I'm going to go into the,like, sexual assault unit.
I do actually remember it wasn't some biggrand moment where I thought,
oh my God, this is what it wasalmost just like, I don't know what.
It wasn't like. I was chasing it.
It was as if it was chasing me,if that makes any sense.
When I was in the DA's officeas a trial attorney,
(13:39):
I started to
kind of settle into more of me because,you know, I'm from the East Coast.
I'm kind of scrappy.
I like to talk a lot of smack, and
I'd say things off the cuffthat sometimes get me in trouble.
But I found as a trial attorney,
the more I was just authentically me,
(14:00):
the better and quicker my results were,if that makes sense.
Like, I would just start saying,
whatever I was thinking really in trial,where a lot of lawyers
are very buttoned up in their delivery,like ladies and gentlemen of the jury.
And when I started saying, like,are you kidding me?
Like, think about that.
(14:20):
You know, when I just started talkingto the jurors like a normal human
being, my verdict started coming quicker.
And obviously, you know,when you start winning all your cases,
they want, you know,the more desirous units want you in it.
And so when I got the opportunityto go to a sexual assault unit,
it was kind of likethe opportunity came up and I was like,
oh my God, righteousindignation is my specialty, right?
(14:43):
Like, and that's one unitwhere you can really be like,
you know, make snarky commentsand not come across
like bitchy because, you know, women dohave that problem as trial attorneys, men,
when they're super aggressive in court,it's like, oh, he's great.
You know, he's so aggressive.
But if a woman is too aggressive in court,
(15:04):
it can come across like,oh, she's a real bitch.
And I mean, it'sjust the nature of the beast.
And so
I could
pull off sarcasm and say things like,oh, maybe he was father of the year
and didn't actually, you know,impregnate his 12 year old daughter.
I could say things like thatand get away with it.
And it seemed as though when I startedjust authentically being me, and not just
(15:28):
with the jury, but with my victims,that was kind of like them.
I feel like that's kind of the maverickmove, really is just being you.
Because when you're genuineand you're authentic
to, you know, especially your victims.
Because I would sharewhat happened to me with them
because I could see them fearing,you know, nobody's going to believe me.
(15:49):
And I would tell them, listen,I want you to know I believe you.
This happened to me, and I know it happensin a roomful other people.
I've had cases where a guy has, like,stuck his hand.
A grandpa stuck his handup, his little, you know,
granddaughter's dress in a
crowded room full of people during, like,one of the sisters, quinceaneras.
(16:10):
And like the girls paralyzedwith fear in that moment.
Of course,she's not going to tell anybody.
Like, this is my sister's quinceanera.
I'm going to ruin the entire party.
This is my grandpa, who I love,and nobody's going to believe me.
And I know that it happens in roomswith other people.
It can happen,you know, anywhere, at any time.
And that's like, kid's, child'sbiggest fear is not being believed.
(16:33):
And so I startedjust kind of coming along the,
the victims in my cases, sharing
what I went through and let them know,like, you're going to get through this.
I got through itand I'm going to help you get through it.
And the more I did that, I justI kind of bonded with them and created
this trust between us because they knew,like, okay, she understands me.
(16:55):
She gets me and, you know,and then they were able to really share
what happened to them in a more,you know, meaningful
way for the jury to understand.
And that had to be empowering for you,especially
in getting through your trauma.
It was it was incredibly empowering.
There's nothingthere's really nothing more satisfying,
(17:18):
I don't think, than understandingyour purpose, like taking your darkest,
you know, the one of the darkest thingsthat's happened to you and using it
to help other peoplebecause it takes the focus off of you.
You stop thinking about, oh, well, as me,this happened to me, this happened to me.
And you start realizing like,hey, hey, this happened to me.
But you know,I can help you to get through this.
And when you focus on other people,it really heals you.
(17:42):
And when somebody stands up against evil,especially a child.
Right?
I have seen kids come into courtand they're just so downtrodden.
They're you can feel the this is,oh my God, the scariest moment.
They watch TVand they think that's what it's like.
And it can be a little bit like that.
But, you know, it's not really like that.
But when you get them on the standand they're able to a tell their story
(18:06):
and then when the verdict comes backand they are believed
because that was their biggest fear,no one's going to believe them.
And the jury comesback with a guilty verdict
even after they testify.
They don't even have to knowthe verdict yet.
You can actually physically feelthe weight lifted off of them.
It's it's like they're energy changes
(18:27):
and they seem like a whole,like out in the hallway.
They seem like a whole different person.
It's it's palpable and it's so satisfyingand cathartic for me
and empowering to know, like, wow,you know, like this happened to me, but
it happened for a reason.
I'm a I'm now aligned with God's purposefor my life is to get these monsters
(18:51):
and make sure that it doesn'thappen to anyone else.
And it's really, really rewarding.
I mean, there's nothing I don't thinkthere's anything more rewarding.
And I was in the homicide unitand I loved that too.
Don't get me wrong, like victims ofhomicide, it's tragic on all fronts, but
I always thought, like,
murderers.
Like, if someone murdersomeone like you could murder
(19:11):
one person and never murder another personunless you're serial killer.
You know, a lot of timesit's domestic, right?
You kill that one person for a reason,you know, specific reason.
But molesters always molest more people.
Predators will always preyon other children.
And so I just felt likeit was more satisfying
(19:32):
for me to take a predator off the streetsthan to take someone
who had murdered someone. That's amazing.
They say if you save one child,you save the world.
I am a big believer in that.
One of the best experiences of my careerwas working
with the Safe team in Los Angelesand I have this plaque here.
(19:53):
How I wound up with it,I do not know, but after I retired,
but I would watch this teamand they had lunch together every day.
They were so tightknit.
They had the most off
sense of humor on the planet.
And you would go, I would go outon a search warrant with them
every now and again.
(20:13):
And these werethe most professional people
I have ever seen,because they know somebody in the house
is a child predator,you know, is it the father?
Is it the mother? Is it the son?
Is it the next doorneighbor who's using their wifi?
I mean, who is it?
And even and once they identifiedwho that person was,
(20:33):
they were so respectfulin everything that they did.
They are justa really amazing group of heroes.
So tell me about your experienceworking with these people.
Yeah. Amen to the safe team.
It's funny that you show that plaquethat has a black widow on it,
because I, that was that's one of my nicknames.
(20:54):
They call me the
Brown Widow because my last name is Browninstead of the Black Widow, because I've
actually had a bunch of child molesterswho I've prosecuted kill themselves.
Really? Yeah.
It was, I don't know why I get all these,you know, nuts, but,
I had one guy that he was convictedand not taken into custody, although
I requested, he was taken into custody,but he ended up going leaving and,
(21:18):
throwing himselfoff the ninth floor of the courthouse.
Which is whyone side of the central courthouse is.
I remember that,I remember remember that. Yeah.
Yeah, that was, guy prosecuted.
Then I had another guy who, hung himselfafter I prosecuted him,
and then another one that actually, slashed his throat in open court
in front of everybodyafter the jury read the verdicts.
Oh, my gosh.
So they were, you know, joke.
(21:40):
You go to gallows humor. We have it.
And, they would always laugh and jokeand call me the, the brown widow grouse.
I prosecute, you kill.
But, anyway, back to your questionabout the safe team.
I have worked
and you're right,
there are some of the mostprofessional people I've ever worked with.
Bernie Trap.
Brian Circle was on the safe team,and they were instrumental
(22:04):
in taking down a monster.
His name was Terry Shields.
And, do we have time for the full story?
Okay, so, Terry Shields was diabolical, but,
Brian Circle had just gotten onto this sexual assault, you know, team
with Detective Bernie Trap,and they were working alongside the FBI,
(22:24):
and they it was just right after
possession of childpornography had become a felony.
And there
was a guy who was a big, heavysetguy, like,
I mean like 550 pounds, heavyset,who was looking at child
porn, pornographic imagesat an internet cafe in Los Angeles.
(22:47):
And the workers there reported it to apolice officer who was across the street.
And so it was they just they cameand he gave some BS story,
like he was just looking at natureimages and wanted to,
turn them over to law enforcement,which, you know, they didn't believe.
So they arrested him.
He was arrestedjust on child pornography charges.
(23:08):
And from there,
Detective Circle got assigned to itas the detective.
And Terry Shields had claimedthat he lived out of his car.
So Detective Circle was like,where there's some child pornography.
There's more.
So he then went and he searched the car,
and what they found inthis car was horrific.
It was not only multiple,multiple floppy disks filled with,
(23:32):
you know, ultimately we learned was childporn, pornographic images.
But there was like a grim reaper mask.
There were little signsthat said, I like you.
Your Q there was a Costco sized box
of lollipops, a grim Reaper mask.
All kinds of sextoys, vibrators, dildos in this blue bag.
(23:52):
And then there were, did I say Tickle Me Elmo dolls?
There were two Tickle Me Elmo dolls.
Little kids bracelets.
And then there was this,topical anesthetic
which is used for injecting children.
And they were like, what on earthhave we uncovered binoculars, a taser,
all kinds of weird stuff.
They got return of serviceon a search warrant, also in the car.
(24:15):
So they called the detectives, said, hey,you know, why did you, says
you searched a storage unitbelonging to Terry Shields.
So the cops said.
Yeah, our dog sniffed that out,but we didn't find any drugs.
But there was some weird magazines,so they got a search warrant for that.
They searched that and there were allkinds of little kids backpacks and just
(24:39):
that, a
little kid stuff and tonsand tons of magazines,
pornographic magazines,little cheerleader and creepy stuff.
And then they got a phone callfrom a woman saying, hey, my renter
just asked me,
to get him out of,you know, bail him out of jail.
But I want to make sure, you know,I know what he's in for first.
(25:00):
And they were like,who's your renter? Terry shields.
So he had lied about living out of hiscar, and, you know, for good reason.
Because then the cops, detective circleand entire safe team went,
and they executed a search warranton his room,
and the woman let him in, and it was,you know, dead bolted or whatever.
His bedroom.
(25:20):
And in there, there were,like, jugs of urine and this huge trunk,
which was a big, huge,almost like a toolbox
filled with videotape after videotape,after videotape of kids
and like, really horrible things. And
there must have been upwards of 100 CDs
(25:42):
filled with all kinds of childporn and videos, too, not just images.
So the safe teamand there was probably about 17 people,
at least from the FBI,that were assigned to do this.
They sat there for hoursand watched those videotapes
and looked at the CDs and the images likethey just had to sit there and watch it
and and try to piece it together and seeif there was an identifiable victim,
(26:05):
or was this just possession of childpornography, or do we have a live victim?
And so they found this one CD of,
child, we'll call her Kelly.
Right. Kelly seven will.
And so they startedher name was more unique than that.
I just don't want to say her name.
But they started searching, around,
(26:26):
Orange County and Los Angeles
for any child victim,who may have been the guy.
I think they got the datefrom the metadata, from the images
of someone who might have been a victimor reported something around then.
And sure enough,they found a report from Anaheim
of a little girl who had never made itto school in the morning.
(26:48):
And what happenedwas she was walking to school,
and Terry Shieldspulled up next to her in a red car
and he said, hey, get in the carand I'll take you to Disneyland.
Get in the carand I'll take you to Disneyland.
And so he ultimately got her in the car,but when she was in the car,
well, he got her in the car.
(27:08):
And then afterwards
she was found in a parking lot, wanderingin a parking lot by a gas station.
And this woman found her.
Her mother didn't even know.She didn't make it to school.
The school never called to say,hey, she's absent.
So mom didn't even know the policebring her home.
And they were like,this is back in the day.
People aren't really as awareof sexual assault,
(27:29):
but the patrol cop was like, hey,
can you take her in the roomand see if anything was wrong with her?
And so mom's like, okay.
But the daughter was like,nothing happened.
We watched Seinfeld the whole day.
And so anyway, fast forward,they then get find this girl.
She's now like 12 years old.
They go to her, right, like,can we talk to you?
(27:49):
And she's like,oh, this is about the kidnaping, right?
And she tells this storyabout how they just went to this house
and watch Seinfeld.
But we have now have images of her,and they did anything but watch Seinfeld.
She's naked.
She's in all kinds of positionswith the sex toys
that were found in the car next to herand near her and in her in the bad.
Okay. Horrible, horrible things.
(28:10):
She then,
she's being interviewed and, you know,
we're watching this cast interviewand she's like, you know,
just says, yeah, no, we watch Seinfeld.
So she was shown a photograph of herself,
and she sees it from when she's little.
And the little girl had a silver toothand she's like, that's not me,
(28:32):
that's not me, that's not me.
And the cops are like, okay.
And she goessee her twice on the other side
because, you know, in the photoit switches.
So this amazing detective,
says, hey, like the social workers, like,sorry, she's not giving anything up.
So this amazing detective says, doyou mind if I go in and give a shot at it?
(28:52):
And we're like,we got nothing to lose at that point.
So she goes inand she tells a little girl,
I know this isn't you, but I'm
a police officer, and it's my job to helplittle kids and find out what happened.
And I want to make sure that nothing,
you know, I want I need to figure outwhat happened to that little girl.
So it never happens to anyone else.
And the little girl goes, oh, yeah.
She goes,
(29:12):
do you think you could help me figure outwhat happened to that little girl?
And she goes, yeah.
And she it was crazy.
She talks in the third personand says, that little girl,
she wasn't smart like me.
And she drank the liquid that he gave her,and then he made her get in the trunk.
And then he took her to a little housebehind the house.
And then he did this, and he did this,and he just she described in detail
(29:35):
the horrible things that he had doneto her.
Well, up until we go to trial,
she was still talking about itin the third person.
It wasn't her.
And then this is the worst part.
They were then, serving another no.
When they were serving the search warrant,I forgot to mention this.
(29:55):
And when they foundthat crazy trunk of horrors,
they got anotherphone call from a woman who says, hey,
our friend has been, calling usand asking us to get his car
out of impound, and we want to know, like,how can we do that for him?
And they were like,who's your friend, Teri Schultz?
They said, how do you know Teri Shields?
(30:15):
And the the lady, the mom says,
oh, he's the bus driver for our autisticchildren.
Oh my gosh.
And the cops were like, oh my God.
And sure enough, those 17 FBI agentshad found a video and they dubbed it
the sisters because there were two girlsthat looked very similar to one another.
And so sure enough,they were both nonverbal autistic,
(30:37):
so they couldn't speakand tell us what had happened.
But we had photos of and the moms like,those are my daughters.
And then the mom told us thatthere was a week where she and her husband
went out of town, and because the kidswere autistic and runners,
that Terry Shields was the only onethey trusted to stay with their kids.
So he had done these horrible,horrible things.
(30:59):
And now and we found hunting noteswhere he was literally hunting children.
And so that team, hadthey not sat there and gone through,
I'm talking hundreds of hoursand it takes an army to do that.
And these images are thingsthat never, ever, ever leave your head.
Like, I know it took a lot of tequila toget some of those images out of my head,
(31:21):
and that so the safe teamwas absolutely spectacular
in locating at least some of the victimsso that we could get them.
And, and when we went to trial,I had the only person who could
identify Terry Shields was this onelittle girl who was talking about him
in the third person.
And I had to have a psychologist come on.
(31:42):
And, there were a lot of just things that
this iswhere, like, my investigator was fantastic
because I said to him, like,I don't understand
when she was sayingshe was put in the trunk, right.
She said she they opened the door,but she was put in the trunk.
So I told them, find every red carTerry Shields has ever owned.
And he found one.
It had been sold at auction,went to that house.
(32:03):
And sure enough, when you go,when he looked and, you know,
examined the car, the back seatspopped down into the trunk. Wow.
So that's what he was doing.
He'd snatch a kid and then stick them in.
They'd get in the back seat.
So anyone seeing would just think, oh,the kid's in the back seat.
But then he'd make them get in the trunkand pop the seat up.
So as he's driving, no one sees himdrive away with some little kid.
(32:24):
Wow. So, yeah, he was a monster.
And he got, 156 yearsto life in prison. Wow.
And then he died after he did, like,five years of cancer.
I wish he lived longerso he could serve more time, but, Yeah,
the judge, I'll never forget.
The judge said,I know you can't do all of that time,
but try to do as much of itas you can. Wow.
Yeah, because that's where they belong.
(32:45):
That's where you belong. Locked up.
So he's.
I'm sure there's a dark placefor him right now, but,
I can't tell you what a bang up jobthey did.
And so what you were saying before about,like, the closeness of the team
and everything, it's kind of likewhen you go to war, right?
When you go to war, it's like the dark.
You see the darkest things.
But there's a camaraderie that occurswhen you're.
(33:08):
When you're like saving childrenfrom monsters like Terry Shields.
There's a bond that occurs.
I think that's why people are so hesitantto get out of law enforcement,
because there's so much camaraderie.
That's what I miss. So much camaraderie.
And just to come alongside,you know, with people that are,
(33:29):
dedicated and focused and sacrificingtheir mind and parts of your soul
to help other people, it just creates abond that that there's that's
incredible.
Yeah.
And it really becomespart of your identity and who you are.
We had these amazing analysts, Dana
Linde and Monique Bueno,and they would search
(33:52):
through hundreds of thousandsif I was on my case.
Oh, she was. Yeah.
So I mean, and talk about being ablehaving to be able to compartmentalize
because how do you see that in
so much every day.
All day, every day.
Yeah.
And not be impacted or affected by it.
(34:13):
You are you.
Yeah.
I'd be lying if I said I wasn't impactedor affected by it.
It definitely.
I mean, can I be candid?
It definitely affects your sex life too.
Like,I don't think anybody can, really, truly
understandwhat seeing those kind of images
does to your headbecause like, you get home
and the last thing you want to think aboutis sex because you've been
(34:33):
looking at these horrible images.
So you're like, yeah,
no, I'll just have some tequilaand watch a little Netflix or whatever.
But it's it's it's hard, it's hard.
It's a hard job.
And it's not for the faint hearted.
And you do have to
kind of
compartmentalize100% and then just fill your mind with,
you know, happier thingsand other positive things
(34:56):
to, to not think about those things.
But it's hardto not think about those things.
Images that'll pop up in your headand you're like,
you know,I don't ever want to think about that.
Yeah, but no, it's it's not easy.
And it's if you don'tever have to look at something like that,
I would highly encourageno one ever look at it.
It's kind of like a car accidentor something.
You know, people are curious.
(35:17):
And then as soon as you see it,you're like, nope, I'm done.
I would, I never want to see that again.Yeah.
You had mentioned thatthe majority of these predators are men.
But now recently we've seen in the newsthese women
who are being arrested for molesting boys.
So the most recent Christina formula.
(35:37):
Are you familiar with that case?
You know what I apologize, I'm not.
Well, yeah, she I mean, I think she wouldhad been molesting a 15 year old.
I mean, there was that one teacherwho was,
like, the hot teacher or what have you.
It's just a whole other.
Have you have you ever had to deal withfemale predators?
(35:57):
Oh, yes.
And you are spot on.
It is generally the teachers. Right.
And like if you think about it though,going back to what we said before,
the reason being is they need access
to the boys of the age that they like.
Right.
So that's why you usually find themas teachers
and other than teachers I have,
(36:21):
there is one case in particularher name, Sheila Seacat that I remember.
It wasn't my case, it was Beth Costello'scase from our office.
Great prosecutor
and but Sheila was really assistingin aiding
and, her boyfriend,who was a disgusting pervert,
and she actually lured her niece over,like, called her sister and said, hey,
(36:42):
you know,we're thinking about having kids.
Can she come first sleepover?
And they were doing horrible things to her
actual niece,drugging them with cough sirup.
But the teachers, it's it'sactually a lot more common
than people think, especially the,the females, sometimes they're like
sports coaches and, you know,like they're the assistant on the,
I don't know, football team.
We've seen those. And,
(37:06):
it's really hard
to prosecute the womenbecause a people don't want to believe.
Right.
And B, there's this stigma or stereotype.
I mean, there's even a South Park episodewhere everybody's high five.
And where was that teacherwhen I was young?
People joke about like, oh,that'd be really cool to have a, you know,
if my, my hot teacher was coming on to mewhen I was in high school,
(37:29):
you know, as a horny teenager.
But the reality is,these young men are so psychologically
traumatized and damagedwhen that abuse does occur
that, you know,
I don't think anybody realizes eventhey're joking about it, you know, after
how serious it is, they don't realize thatit really is traumatic for,
(37:54):
a child.
I mean, they're childrenwhen you're especially boys, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
If they don't,if their brain doesn't developed over 27.
Right.
And you're, you know, doing thingswhen they're 14 or 15
and they're in high school,and it just stunts their sexuality.
It makes them questionall kinds of things.
(38:14):
And, and there is that powerdifferential too, right?
There's something, you know.
Yeah.
And then they also get themto keep secrets.
Right. Right.
And that grooming processis so manipulative.
It's so disingenuous.
And so when they think about it you know,over the rest of their lives, say,
you know, the violationand the betrayal that comes with that.
(38:37):
So there's so many different emotionsthat go with that particular thing.
But when you look at Ghislaine Maxwell
and how she supported Jeffrey Epsteinor even Sandusky, you know,
his wife was upstairs when allegedly,as you know, I don't know, for sure,
but that's what I heard,you know, while this was going on. And
it's just theand we had other cases on the safe team
(39:01):
where women were accomplicesto the entire thing.
In fact, I think we had one.
It was a husband and wife,and they got arrested and they're both in
jail.
And the husbandwound up killing himself in jail.
So now the wife is holdingthe bag for everything that happened.
So it's really fascinatingto see how these women are either,
(39:21):
you know, the predators themselvesor supporting the predators in a way
that allow them to continue onwith their crimes.
Yeah. It's despicable.
It disgusts me to see that,
especially, especially,you know, being a mama bear myself.
Right. Like
I would never in a million.
I can't even imagine in a million yearshelping a man to,
(39:44):
you know, get away with thator or vice versa.
Like helping someone to satisfy their sickand twisted dark needs to hurt a child.
To me it's despicable.
And the moms there just is on the hookif you ask me.
I used to arguelike let's file on the mother.
I had a mom one time on a casewho told her daughter she,
her daughter reported thatthe father was like
(40:06):
trying to have sex with herwhile she was go to bed at night.
And the mom told her sleepwith the belt on.
It'll make it more difficultfor him to get in your pants.
I was like, can we light that mom on fire?
Like, what is wrong with you?
I wanted to arrest that mother.
And I just, I just can't understand
that I actually did have a, woman who
(40:28):
she was.
It was a teacher. He had married
four of his former students.
Oh my gosh.
And the school districtdidn't do anything about it.
Or even, you know, I don't eventhey had to have known.
And then he aged out. Right.
Because now he's like in his 50s.
So he met a girl onlineand who had the children
(40:50):
of the age that he liked, and he started,
having sex with the 12 year old.
And the mom was actually jealous.
And so when the daughterfinally did have the courage to report
and they found the perpetrators semen
in her cervix, she, the mom was like,came to court to testify.
My daughter's a whore and a liar.
(41:11):
Oh my gosh.
And tried to get him out from trouble.
And then she triedall these things to try to get a,
a mistrial,
claimingthat my investigator was in the hallway
and, you know, talking about DNA evidencein front of the jury.
So the judge had to question him,and he was like, nope.
Every juror was like,that didn't happen, didn't happen.
So afterwards,I was so disgusted by what she did
(41:34):
and upset that, like,she perjured herself.
We had her hook, line and sinker
on perjury and aiding,you know, accessory after the fact.
And, I got our office to prosecuteher. Wow.
That's awesome.I said you should look into this.
Here's the transcripts.
And they did.
They prosecuted her,and she ended up in jail.
So, Yeah,that was the guy that slashed his throat.
(41:57):
Oh, boy.
I didn't cry about that one just yet.
So you continue this great workthat you do.
So you're doing it civilly now.
So how exactly does that work?
Well, I thought I was going to retirebecause, you know, like,
we talked aboutit does take a toll on your soul, really.
You know, and by that pointwhen at the end of my career,
(42:17):
I was in the homicide unit,so I wasn't going after the predators,
and the sexual predators anymore.
And so,I decided to retire from being a D.A.
and literally, I opened up my ownlittle shingle, had around law
to do some criminal defense,and I mostly, like, represent
police officers who get accusedof a crime, that kind of thing.
(42:38):
And, I got a knock on the door.
No, I got a phone call, asking me to come work for a civil firm.
And at first I was like, yeah, I don't docivil law, I do criminal law.
But when they explained to methat they had a dedicated practice
group called Fight for survivors,I was like, I'm listening.
And then they said that they goafter the churches and the schools
(43:00):
and the institutions and the organizationsthat cover up child sexual abuse.
And I was like, I'm all in.
And it just like it was kind of likeGod is like, no, not so fast.
Like
I thought I was going to be a bartenderand, you know, have a little shingle.
But so as soon as I heard that,it kind of sparked another flame in me,
like you were talking aboutin that moment, I thought, okay, maybe I'm
(43:22):
not ready to retirelike you know, really retire. So
I, I joined their team and
we've assembled an army thereand we go after,
you know, all the organizationsand institutions that turn a blind eye
because, you know, and I actually find itincredibly rewarding because
(43:45):
I used to goafter the individual perpetrator
who we know has multiple victims.
But if you can get the schools right,because they have many, many teachers,
if you can get the schools or collegesor sports organizations, right,
if you can, like, really stick it to themfor something that they like,
negligent hire.
(44:05):
We've had cases where they've hiredsomeone who's a 290 registrant
and little kids are getting,
you know, molested and sodomizedand horrible things happening to them.
Which all could have been prevented, had they vetted
their employees,had they run a background check?
Like, it's as simple as that.
And so I feel likeit's actually even doing greater
(44:29):
good on a bigger, larger scale,because if you can get the school
district, okay, we're going to keep, you know, we're not going to put the foxes
in charge of the henhouse.
We're going to keep an eyeon these people.
We're going to vet them.
We're going to make sure they're not200 registrants.
We're going to notice when some, teacher,
the favorite teacher, that's whoyou really should be looking at closely.
(44:51):
It's the favorite ones, right?
They're the favorite for the for a reason.
They're feedingthe needs of these young people,
whether it's with flattery,attention in time.
Right.
Telling them you could be the quarterback.
Right. Those that's how they groom them.
And if the teachers who knowall the students, you know,
all the female students go to his classafter school, that's a red flag.
(45:14):
And they should be looking into it. Yeah.
And you know, they they need to wake upbecause our children need to be safe
when they go to school and a storywhen they're going to soccer practice.
They need to be safe.
That's where parents are the feelthe most comfort and relief, right?
When your daughters, you know, going outto a friend's house, you're always like
(45:34):
maybe a little suspicious or like, who'sgoing to be there, that kind of thing.
But when they're going to school,you never think they're
going to be in harm's way at schoolor at band practice.
Right?
And unbeknownst to you, the band teacher'sdoing something, you know, dirty
behind the scenes or whatever.
You know, soccer coach.
And so I really think that,
(45:56):
it's a great, noblecause I love working for this firm there.
Really? We have assembled an armyand we're going after them.
We're going to stop it on a global level.
And really, it's all of our responsibility
because when someone is taken outor arrested
for doing this type of thing,it's not a surprise.
A lot of the time, people had, oh, well,you know what?
(46:18):
I thought I saw somethingor it all makes sense now,
but I think peoplenever want to believe the worst.
And so I think in today's societywhere this is so prevalent
that it's number one,it's our job to protect the kids.
And so we need to use our voices
(46:38):
if something is weird and hey,you don't have to own it.
You don't have to say he's a predator,but just report what you see.
That's unusual.
And I think if more people do that, then
we can prevent some of the thingsthat happened in the future 100%.
I had a case with a Sunday school teacherwho was like going on camping trips
(46:59):
and doing all this stuff,and when it came out that he was
molesting all these kidsand making him take photos and stuff,
I had a woman call me and said,I knew it, and I reported him right.
And he she had reported him to the school,to the Sunday school
thing,you know, the church and said, like,
I saw that guy get into a sleeping bagwith a kid at like a movie night.
(47:24):
And I went over to him and said,get out of that sleeping bag.
And I was like, I love this woman, right?
And, you know, she did the right thing.
But this church certainly didn't becausehe went on to molest a bunch more kids.
Like, he might not have done it
at that sleepover,but they didn't take it seriously.
(47:44):
And people need to, like, actually stopand look into it and say something.
Yeah, and there's liability.
There's liability that comes with that.Oh, yes there is.
Oh yes there is. You know that for sure.
I know that for sure.
So you wrote a bookcalled Defeating the Darkness
and it tells your story,which I read it, loved it.
It meant a lot to mebecause I have known people
(48:08):
who have been sexually molested,and I have seen the trauma
all the way
up till they're, you know,for the rest of their lives.
I mean, it's something that impacts you.
So I think it I've always admired you.
I've known you for such a long time,worked with your husband
(48:29):
and the courage, you know.
And when we talk about Maverick
moves, this kind of epitomizesthe whole Maverick moves
because it all startswith having that courage,
with finding that hillthat you're willing to die on.
I'm getting goosebumpsjust thinking about your journey
and what you've done, and all of the kidsthat you've saved as a result of it.
(48:50):
So, tell us a little bit about,you know, why you wrote this book
and what it means to you.
So I wrote this book because I found
just like what you're talking about,that my maverick moves that like,
any time, child was
encouraged and had the courage to speak upand tell their story
(49:12):
and really,
stand up against evil, right?
They it just changed them.
It healed them.
And I want people to know that,
you know, sexual abusewhile nobody wants it to happen.
(49:33):
If it does happen,it doesn't define who you are, right?
It didn't.
You know, it kind of defined who I amin the in a good sense.
Right? It's where I found my life purpose.
And so.
And there's nothing greaterthan, you know, using
what happened to you to help other people.
And there's so many peoplethat are victims of sexual abuse.
(49:53):
If and there's so many other victimsout there
who need the peoplewho've been abused to speak up,
because oftentimesthat's where the corroboration is.
That's how we prove a lot of these cases,because they do happen
so long ago,and people don't tell right away.
And so there's rarelythe physical evidence
we need or the proof that we need.
As prosecutor to prove it.
(50:14):
So if I could do somethingto, you know, share what happened to me
and talk about how it healed me,healed my guilt over not talking sooner,
but share some stories,like real survivor stories about people
who used their darkest momentand turned it into something good.
And they found healing on the other sideof walking through the fire.
(50:37):
Then, you know, you can do it too.
And I also think the more peoplethat do it,
the more people that are encouragedto do it, the more people that speak up,
the more people, because in my book, it'snot just like the stories,
but it's real,
you know, practical things to look for.
So it's a great book for school teachers.
(50:59):
And there's a lot of people that are also
I talk about in the book that are, working so hard to save survivors
like Aaron Marin, who usedwhat happened to her to change legislation
and make it mandatory for schools to,
you know, educate children about,you know, good touch and bad touch
(51:21):
and who should be, you know,that you should be reporting these crimes,
giving children permissionto go tell an adult that they trust
about what's happening to them.
And so all of that is containedin the book, and I wrote that book
just to come along, side survivorsto honor the people that have worked
through their darkest hourand to really encourage and empower other
(51:43):
survivors of sexual abuse or victims,I should say, to become survivors.
And and maybe they'll find, you know,their superpowers, their maverick move
in the midst of their darkest hourand if one person does
and you know, it wasit was not for nothing.
Yeah, it's all definitely worthwhile.
So, any tips?
(52:04):
So if you suspect that anyone is,
abusing a
child, what do peoplewhat should people do?
Well,
I think the one of the biggest,
things I've seen is,
like, people will teach their childrenabout good touch.
(52:25):
Bad touch, right?
You know, or if anybody touches youin a way that you don't like
or that hurts you, right?
Like you need to tell me.
That's what we as parents teach our kids.
We also tend to teach our parentsabout stranger danger.
Right? Watch out for the guy in the van.
Watch out for the scary creepy guy.
But what we fail to realize is
most of the time, like we've talked about,if someone you know in love and trust
(52:48):
so you can't be like,watch out for your dad,
watch out for your grandpa,watch out for your uncle, right?
You don't want to scare himfrom all the family members. So
the best thing you can do,
is teach your children
that sometimes adults have a problemwith touching children.
(53:09):
And if you know somebody.
Or maybe it's your friend, right?
Maybe it's your friend's uncle or,you know, teacher or coach, throw one of
few family members to in that narrative,right, that hypothetical,
and then say, you need to let me knowso we can get them help.
So if they like the person,they're not afraid to get them in trouble.
They think they're helping them.
(53:30):
The other thingis this good touch, bad touch.
You know, if someone touches in a wayyou don't like.
I had a five year old kidwhose father was a police officer,
and when it finally came outthat the worker at the aftercare was,
you know, molesting him, his dadsaid, son, why didn't you tell me?
I told you over and over and over againif someone touches you
(53:51):
in a bad way to tell me,he goes, yeah, but it felt good, dad.
From the mouths of babes, right?
Because, listen,if someone jumps out of the bushes
and rapes you, you'remore likely to report it because it hurt.
You don't know that person.
You have no psychological,you know, connection to them.
But if someone you know and love and trustnow, there's levels and layers
of this psychological dynamic,the power differential,
(54:14):
the worry that they're goingto get in trouble.
And also if it's someone you knowand love and trust they're grooming you,
they're not going to go right for
they're not going to pull youinto the bushes and rape you.
They're going to startwith massaging your legs, tickling
your back,getting you accustomed to touching.
That's another thing
parents should look out for anyonewho loves to throw your kids in the air.
(54:35):
And what they're a lot of theseperpetrators do is they will
normalize touching.
They'll normalize touching with your kids.
And we as parents are terrible.
We're like, oh, go hug your uncle goodbye.
And when your kid's like, gunshy about it right there.
Come on, go give him a hug.
Go give him a hug because it's awkward.
Now the uncle is offended.
(54:55):
Okay? Your kid's trying to signal to youthere's something.
My spidey senses are up about this guy,and I don't want to hug them.
The other thing is, parents.
Oftentimes, kids will test the waters andthey'll try to tell a parent and little,
like I just said, little tiny bits to seeif the parent is going to believe them.
So like in that moment,if you're like, I don't want to kiss them.
And your mom's like,no, go kiss them, go kiss them.
(55:17):
The kids thinking like, I just triedto tell my mom and she didn't believe me.
So she certainly isn't going to believe mewhen I tell them that he's,
you know, putting his fingers here, thereor the other where, you know what I mean?
So there's so many, just thingsthat parents should be looking out for.
Another thing that predators will do,especially because they're usually someone
you trust. Friends.
(55:38):
They'll become friendswith the parents first, right?
And then they'll start to spend moreand more time with the kids.
And one of the sneakiest thingsthat I've ever seen
predators do is they'll point out to theparents when the kids lie,
they'll plant that seed.
A doubt about the child's veracity, right?
Even if they lie about somethingdumb, like,
I don't eat the cookies or whatever,like, oh, wow, he lied about that.
(56:00):
They'll point out any little white liethat kids always tell, right?
So that if the childactually does report it,
then they'll be like,oh, remember that time he lied to you?
Yeah.
And they also do like to isolate themso that they can't have access
to tell anybody.
Yeah I could tell you a thousand thingsI know and just report it.
(56:21):
Oh I'm sorry.That was back to your original question.
What should they doif they should definitely report it. Yeah.
But you have to be careful aboutwho it is, who you're reporting to, right?
Because like, let's say dad's doing itand you tell the mother, right?
Like you meanreport it to the police for sure.
Right.
At least just get it on record somewhere.
(56:42):
Yeah.
You know because unfortunatelyI've seen so many people cover it up.
I just want to make sureit gets reported to the right person.
That's why I like if, if,like if you're a friend,
how do you tell your friend like, hey,I think your kid's being molested,
you know,
so I think definitely should report itto like someone in law enforcement,
(57:02):
whether you are a superstar,I think it is.
You are a pleasure to have you on my show.
Thank you so much for being here. Oh, my.
It was my pleasure and I can't waitto hear from you and bring you on my show.
I'll be there. Okay?
Tell everybody what your show is.
It's calledDefeating the Darkness as well.
Two crime storieswith downtown Heather Brown.
And you should be listeningbecause Jean is coming on my show.
I am, and now you get to hear from herand how amazing she is
(57:25):
because she's always asking other people,but she's the amazing one.
You're so sweet. Thank you. Thank you.
Making Maverick Moves with Gina Osborne is
produced and edited by Zille Media.
Connect with us on social media at Gina L
Osborne dot coms making maverick moves.
Don't miss an episode.
Subscribe to making Maverick Moveswherever you get your podcasts.
Today's guest is the very embodimentof a maverick.
(00:04):
Moves.
Heather Brown's life is a testamentto transforming unimagined, knowable pain
into unstoppable strength and justice.
As a child, Heather was silencedby the trauma of sexual abuse.
A power dynamicdesigned to keep her voiceless.
Yet instead of succumbingto that darkness,
(00:27):
she harnessed her pain to fuel her resolveto fight against child predators.
Her decision to become a triallawyer was her maverick move
a bold, unyielding commitment to ensure
that those who sought to exploitchildren are held fully accountable.
Over 23 years at the Orange CountyDistrict Attorney's office.
(00:52):
Heather prosecuted high profilecases against violent criminals.
And today, as a trustedmember of Greenberg Gross LLP,
she continues to dismantle systems
that enable sexual abuse.
Her journey from survivor
to champion is not just an inspiringstory.
(01:15):
It's a call to action.
Today, Heather shareshow she transformed her
deepest wounds into her greatest weapon.
Setting an example for every one of us
to reclaim power in the face of injustice.
My name is Gina Osborneand I'm an Army veteran.
I spent six years during the end of theCold War as a counterintelligence agent.
(01:40):
I was appointed as an FBI agent,and during my 22 year
career, worked everythingfrom Asian organized crime to terrorism.
I became the assistant special agentin charge of cyber and computer forensics.
And then I came out of retirementand spent two years
as the safety and security officerat la metro.
(02:01):
Now I'm here to helpyou make your maverick move.
the show, Heather.
I view you as a maverick.
Because your story is so phenomenaland everything that you have done,
you went from a victim of childsexual abuse to becoming
a prosecutor to go after the predatorswho do that to children.
(02:24):
So how did that all come about?
Wow. Well, that's a loaded question.
There's a lot of things that happenedalong the way.
But, you know, when I was younger,I was abused by our next door
neighbor, and I, he was alsoour landlord, and I never told anyone.
I kept that secret deep inside mefor at least 18 years,
(02:44):
until I learned from my motherthat he had passed away.
And she was, like, telling me, like,kind of like, oh, honey, you know, Mr.
Ryder diedand I was like, that disgusting pig.
And all of a sudden,this kind of venom came out of me
that I didn't even realizewas inside of me.
And so, it wasn't in that moment,
(03:05):
you know, that was kind of just reallywhen I, the abuse kind of came back to me
was like, wow, you know, why didn't I tell anyone?
Because my mom had asked me that question,
and it kind ofjust sat with me for a while.
And then as I was in college,I was going through, you know, my,
you know, trying to get my careerpath on board.
And I wanted to, you know, save the world.
(03:26):
And I had all these grand plans.
I was going to be a parole officer.
And then I was going to help, you know,drug addicts with their addictions. And
I just found my way into, like,
a moment where I hadI was a waitress, actually,
and the night manager said to me one day,you know, you've loved to argue so much.
(03:48):
Have you ever thoughtabout being an attorney?
And I was like, no.
And so fast forward like two weeks later,
I was, you know, sitting there workingin this chemical dependency center.
And I just looked around at everyonein the room and thought,
oh my God, you all need to be locked upand have the keys thrown away,
because I was just sickened by how,people, you know,
just the depravity of humanity,how people can do
(04:09):
horrible thingsto the people that they love.
Never mind just strangers.
And that was kind of the defining momentwhen I decided to become an attorney.
And then fast forward, I,
you know, work my way into the DA'soffice in Orange County. And
as I got older
and I learned more about sexual abuse,like when I was,
(04:31):
you know, handling some cases,like just lower level crimes.
And I once I learned more about abuse and,
you know, just
how predators operate,
I started to have a tremendoussense of guilt come over me.
Like that was more the traumathat I suffered from my sexual abuse.
(04:52):
It was kind of like the guiltand the shame,
not about having been sexually abused,
because I never really shared itwith anyone.
But what really affected methe most was the guilt of knowing that
this predator,he actually had a little basement,
our basements were attached,and he had all these games and fun things
(05:12):
for young kids,and just really enticed all the children
in the neighborhoodto come over there and play.
And, you know,when the kids that I was playing with
were distracted,that's when the abuse would happen.
And it happened like with other peoplearound in the house.
And, you know, one time
he even I rememberhe was, doing some horrible things to me.
(05:33):
And his wife was literally
like taking a nap on the couch in the roomright next to us.
And so,
I just it just
kept can't that was what really played,replayed in my mind was
it wasn't so much what he had done to meas much as it of
it was that,
I'd never told anyone.
(05:53):
And now I saw this pattern.
I saw who he was for, who he really wasand what he was doing, and I thought,
oh my God, how many kidsgot sexually abused after me?
Because I never said anything, becauseI didn't have the courage to say anything.
And that was really what affected meby the sexual abuse was the guilt
and shame about not telling anyoneto stop it from happening to someone else.
(06:17):
And so I then in that momentdecided, like, I'm going all in on this,
I'm going to go and I'm going to workin the sexual assault unit
if they'll have me,
and I'm going to do everything I canto make sure
this doesn't happen to anyone else,almost as a way to kind of almost,
you know, resolve myself of the guiltof having not said anything.
(06:39):
But as I got into the unitand I started working with children,
I was assigned to this federally fundedgrant caseload.
So all my victims were ten and under.
They were all like little kidsgetting raped and sodomized.
And it was pretty gruesome,you know, facts on every case that I had,
I just
realized in that momentthat everything that had happened to me
(07:02):
was really,I think so that I could help other people.
But that courage that it takesbecause not only there's
I was in charge of the FBI's CrimesAgainst Children program in Los Angeles
for seven years, and I didn't lookat the child pornography.
All I had to dowas probably see two photos,
and that team had everythingthey needed to do their job.
(07:25):
But I know how difficult that job is.
Number one.
But for you to have that added burdenof having that trauma
that you have to work through atthe same time that you're having to deal
with these predators.
And you talked about that predatorand the characteristics.
And it all started,it seemed, with that power differential.
(07:47):
Yeah.
That's usually where especially I mean,
when when you're a childobviously that's where the abuse occurs.
I mean I'm sorry.That's where it all starts.
There is a power differentialand that's what creates that's called
child sexual abuse.Accommodation syndrome.
Where to the outside worldit actually looks like,
most people, adults who don't understandthe dynamic would think, well,
(08:09):
why did you keep going back over there?
Why would you keep goingto this little playland if you knew
this guy was capable of doing that to you?
And what a lot of people don't understandis because there's this power
differential,because the perpetrator is generally 90%
of the time someone that you know,you trust and you love,
and that's what they use ato keep you quiet.
(08:32):
And that's also where the psychologicaldilemma comes for the child in that, like,
I hate what this guy's doing to me,but I actually like him.
Aside from what he's doing to me.
And it could be your uncle, your cousin,your neighbor, your dad, your anybody.
I'm using man as an example,but generally speaking,
it's mostly men that are perpetrators.
(08:53):
Although I have seen womenwho are perpetrators. But
that power
differential is really the keyto keeping the kid quiet,
because oftentimes it's
someone who's providing somethingfor the child that they're not getting.
And that's whythey hone in on people who are, you know,
have a single parent, right,where there's no father figure around.
(09:15):
And so that person, which I did not have,my dad had passed away
when I was nine from suicide.
And, my mom was raising us.
She was a bartender and working reallyhard to, you know, make ends meet for us.
And so here was a guy who was providing,like, fun, like kiddy lands.
He let me have soda,which I wasn't allowed to have at home.
(09:37):
Chips.
I know it sounds dumb, butthose are things that kids think about.
Like,oh, and he'd take me to the train station.
So he was giving me attentionthat I wasn't getting from a male figure.
And so there was another aspect to it,which
this is all in hindsight,because when I look back on the abuse,
I keep asking myself, orI used to ask myself, why didn't I tell?
(09:59):
And I knew that my motherwas very protective
and a mama bear,and she would have killed that guy.
And in my little brain,you know, I was seven years old.
I was like, my mom will kill him.
And then I won't have my mom either.
And then,
you know, my dad was absent, soI was certainly wasn't going to tell him.
My brothers would have ripped a guy apartfrom limb to limb.
But I always thought,but then they're going to get in trouble
(10:20):
and it's going to be my fault.
And more importantly,back to the power differential.
He was our landlordand so I, in my mind thought,
this is why we have a place to liveis because of him.
And if I get him in trouble or I tell,we're not going to have a place to live
and it's going to be all my fault.
And that was my little kid brainthinking about, why I didn't tell.
(10:42):
And that's what perpetrate and predators,especially the ones you know and trust.
They use that power differentialto keep you quiet.
And, you know, oftentimesperpetrators will also
kind of get something on the kid,like maybe they'll let him drink alcohol
or they'll haven't let him smoke a cigaretor look at porn or watch a dirty movie.
(11:02):
Things that the kid knowsthat they would get in trouble for.
And so they create that dynamicso that if, in fact, they do tell
the secret of what's happening sexually,then they're going to,
fear that they're going to get in troublefor like, well, he's
going to tell my mom that I drank a beer
and that I'm really goingto get in trouble.
Yeah.
And as you know, they go through thisentire grooming process
(11:24):
and they put themselves in positionswhere they have the access to kids.
I work the case I will never forget in1997, the Anthony Martinez kidnaping case.
And he was ultimately murderedby the predator who who kidnaped him.
And so we were out talkingto all of the 296 registrants,
and it floored me how, you know,this was the junior league bowling coach
(11:49):
and the soccer coach and and even,you know, you hear the stories about how
men will go on these dating sitesand they'll choose
women who have childrento have access to the kids.
So it's really alarmingwhen you think about how predicated
and predictable their behaviors are,because it's working 100%.
And, you know, a lot of people are like,
(12:11):
what's up with all these coachesand teachers?
And, you know, there'sso many of them in our school and it's
it's exactly what you were talking about.
That's the whole thing,is that they need access to children.
If they can't find
some woman on the internet who has someonewho's in their desired age group,
they have to find an occupationor position and to get access to children.
(12:33):
It's all about access to children.
And so you will find them in the schooldistricts.
You will find them on, you know,
coaching and and in areaswhere you find lots of children.
So, counterintuitively, the placesthat parents think their children are
the most safe are actually the placeswhere they should be on high alert.
So do you remember a moment
(12:55):
where that courage, because it tooka tremendous amount of courage for you
to step in that direction as a prosecutor,to go after those predators?
Was there a moment that you rememberor something that really kind of
made you decide that this is this is whereI'm going, and I'm going there now,
as far as the moment where I
(13:16):
decided I'm going to go into the,like, sexual assault unit.
I do actually remember it wasn't some biggrand moment where I thought,
oh my God, this is what it wasalmost just like, I don't know what.
It wasn't like. I was chasing it.
It was as if it was chasing me,if that makes any sense.
When I was in the DA's officeas a trial attorney,
(13:39):
I started to
kind of settle into more of me because,you know, I'm from the East Coast.
I'm kind of scrappy.
I like to talk a lot of smack, and
I'd say things off the cuffthat sometimes get me in trouble.
But I found as a trial attorney,
the more I was just authentically me,
(14:00):
the better and quicker my results were,if that makes sense.
Like, I would just start saying,
whatever I was thinking really in trial,where a lot of lawyers
are very buttoned up in their delivery,like ladies and gentlemen of the jury.
And when I started saying, like,are you kidding me?
Like, think about that.
(14:20):
You know, when I just started talkingto the jurors like a normal human
being, my verdict started coming quicker.
And obviously, you know,when you start winning all your cases,
they want, you know,the more desirous units want you in it.
And so when I got the opportunityto go to a sexual assault unit,
it was kind of likethe opportunity came up and I was like,
oh my God, righteousindignation is my specialty, right?
(14:43):
Like, and that's one unitwhere you can really be like,
you know, make snarky commentsand not come across
like bitchy because, you know, women dohave that problem as trial attorneys, men,
when they're super aggressive in court,it's like, oh, he's great.
You know, he's so aggressive.
But if a woman is too aggressive in court,
(15:04):
it can come across like,oh, she's a real bitch.
And I mean, it'sjust the nature of the beast.
And so
I could
pull off sarcasm and say things like,oh, maybe he was father of the year
and didn't actually, you know,impregnate his 12 year old daughter.
I could say things like thatand get away with it.
And it seemed as though when I startedjust authentically being me, and not just
(15:28):
with the jury, but with my victims,that was kind of like them.
I feel like that's kind of the maverickmove, really is just being you.
Because when you're genuineand you're authentic
to, you know, especially your victims.
Because I would sharewhat happened to me with them
because I could see them fearing,you know, nobody's going to believe me.
(15:49):
And I would tell them, listen,I want you to know I believe you.
This happened to me, and I know it happensin a roomful other people.
I've had cases where a guy has, like,stuck his hand.
A grandpa stuck his handup, his little, you know,
granddaughter's dress in a
crowded room full of people during, like,one of the sisters, quinceaneras.
(16:10):
And like the girls paralyzedwith fear in that moment.
Of course,she's not going to tell anybody.
Like, this is my sister's quinceanera.
I'm going to ruin the entire party.
This is my grandpa, who I love,and nobody's going to believe me.
And I know that it happens in roomswith other people.
It can happen,you know, anywhere, at any time.
And that's like, kid's, child'sbiggest fear is not being believed.
(16:33):
And so I startedjust kind of coming along the,
the victims in my cases, sharing
what I went through and let them know,like, you're going to get through this.
I got through itand I'm going to help you get through it.
And the more I did that, I justI kind of bonded with them and created
this trust between us because they knew,like, okay, she understands me.
(16:55):
She gets me and, you know,and then they were able to really share
what happened to them in a more,you know, meaningful
way for the jury to understand.
And that had to be empowering for you,especially
in getting through your trauma.
It was it was incredibly empowering.
There's nothingthere's really nothing more satisfying,
(17:18):
I don't think, than understandingyour purpose, like taking your darkest,
you know, the one of the darkest thingsthat's happened to you and using it
to help other peoplebecause it takes the focus off of you.
You stop thinking about, oh, well, as me,this happened to me, this happened to me.
And you start realizing like,hey, hey, this happened to me.
But you know,I can help you to get through this.
And when you focus on other people,it really heals you.
(17:42):
And when somebody stands up against evil,especially a child.
Right?
I have seen kids come into courtand they're just so downtrodden.
They're you can feel the this is,oh my God, the scariest moment.
They watch TVand they think that's what it's like.
And it can be a little bit like that.
But, you know, it's not really like that.
But when you get them on the standand they're able to a tell their story
(18:06):
and then when the verdict comes backand they are believed
because that was their biggest fear,no one's going to believe them.
And the jury comesback with a guilty verdict
even after they testify.
They don't even have to knowthe verdict yet.
You can actually physically feelthe weight lifted off of them.
It's it's like they're energy changes
(18:27):
and they seem like a whole,like out in the hallway.
They seem like a whole different person.
It's it's palpable and it's so satisfyingand cathartic for me
and empowering to know, like, wow,you know, like this happened to me, but
it happened for a reason.
I'm a I'm now aligned with God's purposefor my life is to get these monsters
(18:51):
and make sure that it doesn'thappen to anyone else.
And it's really, really rewarding.
I mean, there's nothing I don't thinkthere's anything more rewarding.
And I was in the homicide unitand I loved that too.
Don't get me wrong, like victims ofhomicide, it's tragic on all fronts, but
I always thought, like,
murderers.
Like, if someone murdersomeone like you could murder
(19:11):
one person and never murder another personunless you're serial killer.
You know, a lot of timesit's domestic, right?
You kill that one person for a reason,you know, specific reason.
But molesters always molest more people.
Predators will always preyon other children.
And so I just felt likeit was more satisfying
(19:32):
for me to take a predator off the streetsthan to take someone
who had murdered someone. That's amazing.
They say if you save one child,you save the world.
I am a big believer in that.
One of the best experiences of my careerwas working
with the Safe team in Los Angelesand I have this plaque here.
(19:53):
How I wound up with it,I do not know, but after I retired,
but I would watch this teamand they had lunch together every day.
They were so tightknit.
They had the most off
sense of humor on the planet.
And you would go, I would go outon a search warrant with them
every now and again.
(20:13):
And these werethe most professional people
I have ever seen,because they know somebody in the house
is a child predator,you know, is it the father?
Is it the mother? Is it the son?
Is it the next doorneighbor who's using their wifi?
I mean, who is it?
And even and once they identifiedwho that person was,
(20:33):
they were so respectfulin everything that they did.
They are justa really amazing group of heroes.
So tell me about your experienceworking with these people.
Yeah. Amen to the safe team.
It's funny that you show that plaquethat has a black widow on it,
because I, that was that's one of my nicknames.
(20:54):
They call me the
Brown Widow because my last name is Browninstead of the Black Widow, because I've
actually had a bunch of child molesterswho I've prosecuted kill themselves.
Really? Yeah.
It was, I don't know why I get all these,you know, nuts, but,
I had one guy that he was convictedand not taken into custody, although
I requested, he was taken into custody,but he ended up going leaving and,
(21:18):
throwing himselfoff the ninth floor of the courthouse.
Which is whyone side of the central courthouse is.
I remember that,I remember remember that. Yeah.
Yeah, that was, guy prosecuted.
Then I had another guy who, hung himselfafter I prosecuted him,
and then another one that actually, slashed his throat in open court
in front of everybodyafter the jury read the verdicts.
Oh, my gosh.
So they were, you know, joke.
(21:40):
You go to gallows humor. We have it.
And, they would always laugh and jokeand call me the, the brown widow grouse.
I prosecute, you kill.
But, anyway, back to your questionabout the safe team.
I have worked
and you're right,
there are some of the mostprofessional people I've ever worked with.
Bernie Trap.
Brian Circle was on the safe team,and they were instrumental
(22:04):
in taking down a monster.
His name was Terry Shields.
And, do we have time for the full story?
Okay, so, Terry Shields was diabolical, but,
Brian Circle had just gotten onto this sexual assault, you know, team
with Detective Bernie Trap,and they were working alongside the FBI,
(22:24):
and they it was just right after
possession of childpornography had become a felony.
And there
was a guy who was a big, heavysetguy, like,
I mean like 550 pounds, heavyset,who was looking at child
porn, pornographic imagesat an internet cafe in Los Angeles.
(22:47):
And the workers there reported it to apolice officer who was across the street.
And so it was they just they cameand he gave some BS story,
like he was just looking at natureimages and wanted to,
turn them over to law enforcement,which, you know, they didn't believe.
So they arrested him.
He was arrestedjust on child pornography charges.
(23:08):
And from there,
Detective Circle got assigned to itas the detective.
And Terry Shields had claimedthat he lived out of his car.
So Detective Circle was like,where there's some child pornography.
There's more.
So he then went and he searched the car,
and what they found inthis car was horrific.
It was not only multiple,multiple floppy disks filled with,
(23:32):
you know, ultimately we learned was childporn, pornographic images.
But there was like a grim reaper mask.
There were little signsthat said, I like you.
Your Q there was a Costco sized box
of lollipops, a grim Reaper mask.
All kinds of sextoys, vibrators, dildos in this blue bag.
(23:52):
And then there were, did I say Tickle Me Elmo dolls?
There were two Tickle Me Elmo dolls.
Little kids bracelets.
And then there was this,topical anesthetic
which is used for injecting children.
And they were like, what on earthhave we uncovered binoculars, a taser,
all kinds of weird stuff.
They got return of serviceon a search warrant, also in the car.
(24:15):
So they called the detectives, said, hey,you know, why did you, says
you searched a storage unitbelonging to Terry Shields.
So the cops said.
Yeah, our dog sniffed that out,but we didn't find any drugs.
But there was some weird magazines,so they got a search warrant for that.
They searched that and there were allkinds of little kids backpacks and just
(24:39):
that, a
little kid stuff and tonsand tons of magazines,
pornographic magazines,little cheerleader and creepy stuff.
And then they got a phone callfrom a woman saying, hey, my renter
just asked me,
to get him out of,you know, bail him out of jail.
But I want to make sure, you know,I know what he's in for first.
(25:00):
And they were like,who's your renter? Terry shields.
So he had lied about living out of hiscar, and, you know, for good reason.
Because then the cops, detective circleand entire safe team went,
and they executed a search warranton his room,
and the woman let him in, and it was,you know, dead bolted or whatever.
His bedroom.
(25:20):
And in there, there were,like, jugs of urine and this huge trunk,
which was a big, huge,almost like a toolbox
filled with videotape after videotape,after videotape of kids
and like, really horrible things. And
there must have been upwards of 100 CDs
(25:42):
filled with all kinds of childporn and videos, too, not just images.
So the safe teamand there was probably about 17 people,
at least from the FBI,that were assigned to do this.
They sat there for hoursand watched those videotapes
and looked at the CDs and the images likethey just had to sit there and watch it
and and try to piece it together and seeif there was an identifiable victim,
(26:05):
or was this just possession of childpornography, or do we have a live victim?
And so they found this one CD of,
child, we'll call her Kelly.
Right. Kelly seven will.
And so they startedher name was more unique than that.
I just don't want to say her name.
But they started searching, around,
(26:26):
Orange County and Los Angeles
for any child victim,who may have been the guy.
I think they got the datefrom the metadata, from the images
of someone who might have been a victimor reported something around then.
And sure enough,they found a report from Anaheim
of a little girl who had never made itto school in the morning.
(26:48):
And what happenedwas she was walking to school,
and Terry Shieldspulled up next to her in a red car
and he said, hey, get in the carand I'll take you to Disneyland.
Get in the carand I'll take you to Disneyland.
And so he ultimately got her in the car,but when she was in the car,
well, he got her in the car.
(27:08):
And then afterwards
she was found in a parking lot, wanderingin a parking lot by a gas station.
And this woman found her.
Her mother didn't even know.She didn't make it to school.
The school never called to say,hey, she's absent.
So mom didn't even know the policebring her home.
And they were like,this is back in the day.
People aren't really as awareof sexual assault,
(27:29):
but the patrol cop was like, hey,
can you take her in the roomand see if anything was wrong with her?
And so mom's like, okay.
But the daughter was like,nothing happened.
We watched Seinfeld the whole day.
And so anyway, fast forward,they then get find this girl.
She's now like 12 years old.
They go to her, right, like,can we talk to you?
(27:49):
And she's like,oh, this is about the kidnaping, right?
And she tells this storyabout how they just went to this house
and watch Seinfeld.
But we have now have images of her,and they did anything but watch Seinfeld.
She's naked.
She's in all kinds of positionswith the sex toys
that were found in the car next to herand near her and in her in the bad.
Okay. Horrible, horrible things.
(28:10):
She then,
she's being interviewed and, you know,
we're watching this cast interviewand she's like, you know,
just says, yeah, no, we watch Seinfeld.
So she was shown a photograph of herself,
and she sees it from when she's little.
And the little girl had a silver toothand she's like, that's not me,
(28:32):
that's not me, that's not me.
And the cops are like, okay.
And she goessee her twice on the other side
because, you know, in the photoit switches.
So this amazing detective,
says, hey, like the social workers, like,sorry, she's not giving anything up.
So this amazing detective says, doyou mind if I go in and give a shot at it?
(28:52):
And we're like,we got nothing to lose at that point.
So she goes inand she tells a little girl,
I know this isn't you, but I'm
a police officer, and it's my job to helplittle kids and find out what happened.
And I want to make sure that nothing,
you know, I want I need to figure outwhat happened to that little girl.
So it never happens to anyone else.
And the little girl goes, oh, yeah.
She goes,
(29:12):
do you think you could help me figure outwhat happened to that little girl?
And she goes, yeah.
And she it was crazy.
She talks in the third personand says, that little girl,
she wasn't smart like me.
And she drank the liquid that he gave her,and then he made her get in the trunk.
And then he took her to a little housebehind the house.
And then he did this, and he did this,and he just she described in detail
(29:35):
the horrible things that he had doneto her.
Well, up until we go to trial,
she was still talking about itin the third person.
It wasn't her.
And then this is the worst part.
They were then, serving another no.
When they were serving the search warrant,I forgot to mention this.
(29:55):
And when they foundthat crazy trunk of horrors,
they got anotherphone call from a woman who says, hey,
our friend has been, calling usand asking us to get his car
out of impound, and we want to know, like,how can we do that for him?
And they were like,who's your friend, Teri Schultz?
They said, how do you know Teri Shields?
(30:15):
And the the lady, the mom says,
oh, he's the bus driver for our autisticchildren.
Oh my gosh.
And the cops were like, oh my God.
And sure enough, those 17 FBI agentshad found a video and they dubbed it
the sisters because there were two girlsthat looked very similar to one another.
And so sure enough,they were both nonverbal autistic,
(30:37):
so they couldn't speakand tell us what had happened.
But we had photos of and the moms like,those are my daughters.
And then the mom told us thatthere was a week where she and her husband
went out of town, and because the kidswere autistic and runners,
that Terry Shields was the only onethey trusted to stay with their kids.
So he had done these horrible,horrible things.
(30:59):
And now and we found hunting noteswhere he was literally hunting children.
And so that team, hadthey not sat there and gone through,
I'm talking hundreds of hoursand it takes an army to do that.
And these images are thingsthat never, ever, ever leave your head.
Like, I know it took a lot of tequila toget some of those images out of my head,
(31:21):
and that so the safe teamwas absolutely spectacular
in locating at least some of the victimsso that we could get them.
And, and when we went to trial,I had the only person who could
identify Terry Shields was this onelittle girl who was talking about him
in the third person.
And I had to have a psychologist come on.
(31:42):
And, there were a lot of just things that
this iswhere, like, my investigator was fantastic
because I said to him, like,I don't understand
when she was sayingshe was put in the trunk, right.
She said she they opened the door,but she was put in the trunk.
So I told them, find every red carTerry Shields has ever owned.
And he found one.
It had been sold at auction,went to that house.
(32:03):
And sure enough, when you go,when he looked and, you know,
examined the car, the back seatspopped down into the trunk. Wow.
So that's what he was doing.
He'd snatch a kid and then stick them in.
They'd get in the back seat.
So anyone seeing would just think, oh,the kid's in the back seat.
But then he'd make them get in the trunkand pop the seat up.
So as he's driving, no one sees himdrive away with some little kid.
(32:24):
Wow. So, yeah, he was a monster.
And he got, 156 yearsto life in prison. Wow.
And then he died after he did, like,five years of cancer.
I wish he lived longerso he could serve more time, but, Yeah,
the judge, I'll never forget.
The judge said,I know you can't do all of that time,
but try to do as much of itas you can. Wow.
Yeah, because that's where they belong.
(32:45):
That's where you belong. Locked up.
So he's.
I'm sure there's a dark placefor him right now, but,
I can't tell you what a bang up jobthey did.
And so what you were saying before about,like, the closeness of the team
and everything, it's kind of likewhen you go to war, right?
When you go to war, it's like the dark.
You see the darkest things.
But there's a camaraderie that occurswhen you're.
(33:08):
When you're like saving childrenfrom monsters like Terry Shields.
There's a bond that occurs.
I think that's why people are so hesitantto get out of law enforcement,
because there's so much camaraderie.
That's what I miss. So much camaraderie.
And just to come alongside,you know, with people that are,
(33:29):
dedicated and focused and sacrificingtheir mind and parts of your soul
to help other people, it just creates abond that that there's that's
incredible.
Yeah.
And it really becomespart of your identity and who you are.
We had these amazing analysts, Dana
Linde and Monique Bueno,and they would search
(33:52):
through hundreds of thousandsif I was on my case.
Oh, she was. Yeah.
So I mean, and talk about being ablehaving to be able to compartmentalize
because how do you see that in
so much every day.
All day, every day.
Yeah.
And not be impacted or affected by it.
(34:13):
You are you.
Yeah.
I'd be lying if I said I wasn't impactedor affected by it.
It definitely.
I mean, can I be candid?
It definitely affects your sex life too.
Like,I don't think anybody can, really, truly
understandwhat seeing those kind of images
does to your headbecause like, you get home
and the last thing you want to think aboutis sex because you've been
(34:33):
looking at these horrible images.
So you're like, yeah,
no, I'll just have some tequilaand watch a little Netflix or whatever.
But it's it's it's hard, it's hard.
It's a hard job.
And it's not for the faint hearted.
And you do have to
kind of
compartmentalize100% and then just fill your mind with,
you know, happier thingsand other positive things
(34:56):
to, to not think about those things.
But it's hardto not think about those things.
Images that'll pop up in your headand you're like,
you know,I don't ever want to think about that.
Yeah, but no, it's it's not easy.
And it's if you don'tever have to look at something like that,
I would highly encourageno one ever look at it.
It's kind of like a car accidentor something.
You know, people are curious.
(35:17):
And then as soon as you see it,you're like, nope, I'm done.
I would, I never want to see that again.Yeah.
You had mentioned thatthe majority of these predators are men.
But now recently we've seen in the newsthese women
who are being arrested for molesting boys.
So the most recent Christina formula.
(35:37):
Are you familiar with that case?
You know what I apologize, I'm not.
Well, yeah, she I mean, I think she wouldhad been molesting a 15 year old.
I mean, there was that one teacherwho was,
like, the hot teacher or what have you.
It's just a whole other.
Have you have you ever had to deal withfemale predators?
(35:57):
Oh, yes.
And you are spot on.
It is generally the teachers. Right.
And like if you think about it though,going back to what we said before,
the reason being is they need access
to the boys of the age that they like.
Right.
So that's why you usually find themas teachers
and other than teachers I have,
(36:21):
there is one case in particularher name, Sheila Seacat that I remember.
It wasn't my case, it was Beth Costello'scase from our office.
Great prosecutor
and but Sheila was really assistingin aiding
and, her boyfriend,who was a disgusting pervert,
and she actually lured her niece over,like, called her sister and said, hey,
(36:42):
you know,we're thinking about having kids.
Can she come first sleepover?
And they were doing horrible things to her
actual niece,drugging them with cough sirup.
But the teachers, it's it'sactually a lot more common
than people think, especially the,the females, sometimes they're like
sports coaches and, you know,like they're the assistant on the,
I don't know, football team.
We've seen those. And,
(37:06):
it's really hard
to prosecute the womenbecause a people don't want to believe.
Right.
And B, there's this stigma or stereotype.
I mean, there's even a South Park episodewhere everybody's high five.
And where was that teacherwhen I was young?
People joke about like, oh,that'd be really cool to have a, you know,
if my, my hot teacher was coming on to mewhen I was in high school,
(37:29):
you know, as a horny teenager.
But the reality is,these young men are so psychologically
traumatized and damagedwhen that abuse does occur
that, you know,
I don't think anybody realizes eventhey're joking about it, you know, after
how serious it is, they don't realize thatit really is traumatic for,
(37:54):
a child.
I mean, they're childrenwhen you're especially boys, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
If they don't,if their brain doesn't developed over 27.
Right.
And you're, you know, doing thingswhen they're 14 or 15
and they're in high school,and it just stunts their sexuality.
It makes them questionall kinds of things.
(38:14):
And, and there is that powerdifferential too, right?
There's something, you know.
Yeah.
And then they also get themto keep secrets.
Right. Right.
And that grooming processis so manipulative.
It's so disingenuous.
And so when they think about it you know,over the rest of their lives, say,
you know, the violationand the betrayal that comes with that.
(38:37):
So there's so many different emotionsthat go with that particular thing.
But when you look at Ghislaine Maxwell
and how she supported Jeffrey Epsteinor even Sandusky, you know,
his wife was upstairs when allegedly,as you know, I don't know, for sure,
but that's what I heard,you know, while this was going on. And
it's just theand we had other cases on the safe team
(39:01):
where women were accomplicesto the entire thing.
In fact, I think we had one.
It was a husband and wife,and they got arrested and they're both in
jail.
And the husbandwound up killing himself in jail.
So now the wife is holdingthe bag for everything that happened.
So it's really fascinatingto see how these women are either,
(39:21):
you know, the predators themselvesor supporting the predators in a way
that allow them to continue onwith their crimes.
Yeah. It's despicable.
It disgusts me to see that,
especially, especially,you know, being a mama bear myself.
Right. Like
I would never in a million.
I can't even imagine in a million yearshelping a man to,
(39:44):
you know, get away with thator or vice versa.
Like helping someone to satisfy their sickand twisted dark needs to hurt a child.
To me it's despicable.
And the moms there just is on the hookif you ask me.
I used to arguelike let's file on the mother.
I had a mom one time on a casewho told her daughter she,
her daughter reported thatthe father was like
(40:06):
trying to have sex with herwhile she was go to bed at night.
And the mom told her sleepwith the belt on.
It'll make it more difficultfor him to get in your pants.
I was like, can we light that mom on fire?
Like, what is wrong with you?
I wanted to arrest that mother.
And I just, I just can't understand
that I actually did have a, woman who
(40:28):
she was.
It was a teacher. He had married
four of his former students.
Oh my gosh.
And the school districtdidn't do anything about it.
Or even, you know, I don't eventhey had to have known.
And then he aged out. Right.
Because now he's like in his 50s.
So he met a girl onlineand who had the children
(40:50):
of the age that he liked, and he started,
having sex with the 12 year old.
And the mom was actually jealous.
And so when the daughterfinally did have the courage to report
and they found the perpetrators semen
in her cervix, she, the mom was like,came to court to testify.
My daughter's a whore and a liar.
(41:11):
Oh my gosh.
And tried to get him out from trouble.
And then she triedall these things to try to get a,
a mistrial,
claimingthat my investigator was in the hallway
and, you know, talking about DNA evidencein front of the jury.
So the judge had to question him,and he was like, nope.
Every juror was like,that didn't happen, didn't happen.
So afterwards,I was so disgusted by what she did
(41:34):
and upset that, like,she perjured herself.
We had her hook, line and sinker
on perjury and aiding,you know, accessory after the fact.
And, I got our office to prosecuteher. Wow.
That's awesome.I said you should look into this.
Here's the transcripts.
And they did.
They prosecuted her,and she ended up in jail.
So, Yeah,that was the guy that slashed his throat.
(41:57):
Oh, boy.
I didn't cry about that one just yet.
So you continue this great workthat you do.
So you're doing it civilly now.
So how exactly does that work?
Well, I thought I was going to retirebecause, you know, like,
we talked aboutit does take a toll on your soul, really.
You know, and by that pointwhen at the end of my career,
(42:17):
I was in the homicide unit,so I wasn't going after the predators,
and the sexual predators anymore.
And so,I decided to retire from being a D.A.
and literally, I opened up my ownlittle shingle, had around law
to do some criminal defense,and I mostly, like, represent
police officers who get accusedof a crime, that kind of thing.
(42:38):
And, I got a knock on the door.
No, I got a phone call, asking me to come work for a civil firm.
And at first I was like, yeah, I don't docivil law, I do criminal law.
But when they explained to methat they had a dedicated practice
group called Fight for survivors,I was like, I'm listening.
And then they said that they goafter the churches and the schools
(43:00):
and the institutions and the organizationsthat cover up child sexual abuse.
And I was like, I'm all in.
And it just like it was kind of likeGod is like, no, not so fast.
Like
I thought I was going to be a bartenderand, you know, have a little shingle.
But so as soon as I heard that,it kind of sparked another flame in me,
like you were talking aboutin that moment, I thought, okay, maybe I'm
(43:22):
not ready to retirelike you know, really retire. So
I, I joined their team and
we've assembled an army thereand we go after,
you know, all the organizationsand institutions that turn a blind eye
because, you know, and I actually find itincredibly rewarding because
(43:45):
I used to goafter the individual perpetrator
who we know has multiple victims.
But if you can get the schools right,because they have many, many teachers,
if you can get the schools or collegesor sports organizations, right,
if you can, like, really stick it to themfor something that they like,
negligent hire.
(44:05):
We've had cases where they've hiredsomeone who's a 290 registrant
and little kids are getting,
you know, molested and sodomizedand horrible things happening to them.
Which all could have been prevented, had they vetted
their employees,had they run a background check?
Like, it's as simple as that.
And so I feel likeit's actually even doing greater
(44:29):
good on a bigger, larger scale,because if you can get the school
district, okay, we're going to keep, you know, we're not going to put the foxes
in charge of the henhouse.
We're going to keep an eyeon these people.
We're going to vet them.
We're going to make sure they're not200 registrants.
We're going to notice when some, teacher,
the favorite teacher, that's whoyou really should be looking at closely.
(44:51):
It's the favorite ones, right?
They're the favorite for the for a reason.
They're feedingthe needs of these young people,
whether it's with flattery,attention in time.
Right.
Telling them you could be the quarterback.
Right. Those that's how they groom them.
And if the teachers who knowall the students, you know,
all the female students go to his classafter school, that's a red flag.
(45:14):
And they should be looking into it. Yeah.
And you know, they they need to wake upbecause our children need to be safe
when they go to school and a storywhen they're going to soccer practice.
They need to be safe.
That's where parents are the feelthe most comfort and relief, right?
When your daughters, you know, going outto a friend's house, you're always like
(45:34):
maybe a little suspicious or like, who'sgoing to be there, that kind of thing.
But when they're going to school,you never think they're
going to be in harm's way at schoolor at band practice.
Right?
And unbeknownst to you, the band teacher'sdoing something, you know, dirty
behind the scenes or whatever.
You know, soccer coach.
And so I really think that,
(45:56):
it's a great, noblecause I love working for this firm there.
Really? We have assembled an armyand we're going after them.
We're going to stop it on a global level.
And really, it's all of our responsibility
because when someone is taken outor arrested
for doing this type of thing,it's not a surprise.
A lot of the time, people had, oh, well,you know what?
(46:18):
I thought I saw somethingor it all makes sense now,
but I think peoplenever want to believe the worst.
And so I think in today's societywhere this is so prevalent
that it's number one,it's our job to protect the kids.
And so we need to use our voices
(46:38):
if something is weird and hey,you don't have to own it.
You don't have to say he's a predator,but just report what you see.
That's unusual.
And I think if more people do that, then
we can prevent some of the thingsthat happened in the future 100%.
I had a case with a Sunday school teacherwho was like going on camping trips
(46:59):
and doing all this stuff,and when it came out that he was
molesting all these kidsand making him take photos and stuff,
I had a woman call me and said,I knew it, and I reported him right.
And he she had reported him to the school,to the Sunday school
thing,you know, the church and said, like,
I saw that guy get into a sleeping bagwith a kid at like a movie night.
(47:24):
And I went over to him and said,get out of that sleeping bag.
And I was like, I love this woman, right?
And, you know, she did the right thing.
But this church certainly didn't becausehe went on to molest a bunch more kids.
Like, he might not have done it
at that sleepover,but they didn't take it seriously.
(47:44):
And people need to, like, actually stopand look into it and say something.
Yeah, and there's liability.
There's liability that comes with that.Oh, yes there is.
Oh yes there is. You know that for sure.
I know that for sure.
So you wrote a bookcalled Defeating the Darkness
and it tells your story,which I read it, loved it.
It meant a lot to mebecause I have known people
(48:08):
who have been sexually molested,and I have seen the trauma
all the way
up till they're, you know,for the rest of their lives.
I mean, it's something that impacts you.
So I think it I've always admired you.
I've known you for such a long time,worked with your husband
(48:29):
and the courage, you know.
And when we talk about Maverick
moves, this kind of epitomizesthe whole Maverick moves
because it all startswith having that courage,
with finding that hillthat you're willing to die on.
I'm getting goosebumpsjust thinking about your journey
and what you've done, and all of the kidsthat you've saved as a result of it.
(48:50):
So, tell us a little bit about,you know, why you wrote this book
and what it means to you.
So I wrote this book because I found
just like what you're talking about,that my maverick moves that like,
any time, child was
encouraged and had the courage to speak upand tell their story
(49:12):
and really,
stand up against evil, right?
They it just changed them.
It healed them.
And I want people to know that,
you know, sexual abusewhile nobody wants it to happen.
(49:33):
If it does happen,it doesn't define who you are, right?
It didn't.
You know, it kind of defined who I amin the in a good sense.
Right? It's where I found my life purpose.
And so.
And there's nothing greaterthan, you know, using
what happened to you to help other people.
And there's so many peoplethat are victims of sexual abuse.
(49:53):
If and there's so many other victimsout there
who need the peoplewho've been abused to speak up,
because oftentimesthat's where the corroboration is.
That's how we prove a lot of these cases,because they do happen
so long ago,and people don't tell right away.
And so there's rarelythe physical evidence
we need or the proof that we need.
As prosecutor to prove it.
(50:14):
So if I could do somethingto, you know, share what happened to me
and talk about how it healed me,healed my guilt over not talking sooner,
but share some stories,like real survivor stories about people
who used their darkest momentand turned it into something good.
And they found healing on the other sideof walking through the fire.
(50:37):
Then, you know, you can do it too.
And I also think the more peoplethat do it,
the more people that are encouragedto do it, the more people that speak up,
the more people, because in my book, it'snot just like the stories,
but it's real,
you know, practical things to look for.
So it's a great book for school teachers.
(50:59):
And there's a lot of people that are also
I talk about in the book that are, working so hard to save survivors
like Aaron Marin, who usedwhat happened to her to change legislation
and make it mandatory for schools to,
you know, educate children about,you know, good touch and bad touch
(51:21):
and who should be, you know,that you should be reporting these crimes,
giving children permissionto go tell an adult that they trust
about what's happening to them.
And so all of that is containedin the book, and I wrote that book
just to come along, side survivorsto honor the people that have worked
through their darkest hourand to really encourage and empower other
(51:43):
survivors of sexual abuse or victims,I should say, to become survivors.
And and maybe they'll find, you know,their superpowers, their maverick move
in the midst of their darkest hourand if one person does
and you know, it wasit was not for nothing.
Yeah, it's all definitely worthwhile.
So, any tips?
(52:04):
So if you suspect that anyone is,
abusing a
child, what do peoplewhat should people do?
Well,
I think the one of the biggest,
things I've seen is,
like, people will teach their childrenabout good touch.
(52:25):
Bad touch, right?
You know, or if anybody touches youin a way that you don't like
or that hurts you, right?
Like you need to tell me.
That's what we as parents teach our kids.
We also tend to teach our parentsabout stranger danger.
Right? Watch out for the guy in the van.
Watch out for the scary creepy guy.
But what we fail to realize is
most of the time, like we've talked about,if someone you know in love and trust
(52:48):
so you can't be like,watch out for your dad,
watch out for your grandpa,watch out for your uncle, right?
You don't want to scare himfrom all the family members. So
the best thing you can do,
is teach your children
that sometimes adults have a problemwith touching children.
(53:09):
And if you know somebody.
Or maybe it's your friend, right?
Maybe it's your friend's uncle or,you know, teacher or coach, throw one of
few family members to in that narrative,right, that hypothetical,
and then say, you need to let me knowso we can get them help.
So if they like the person,they're not afraid to get them in trouble.
They think they're helping them.
(53:30):
The other thingis this good touch, bad touch.
You know, if someone touches in a wayyou don't like.
I had a five year old kidwhose father was a police officer,
and when it finally came outthat the worker at the aftercare was,
you know, molesting him, his dadsaid, son, why didn't you tell me?
I told you over and over and over againif someone touches you
(53:51):
in a bad way to tell me,he goes, yeah, but it felt good, dad.
From the mouths of babes, right?
Because, listen,if someone jumps out of the bushes
and rapes you, you'remore likely to report it because it hurt.
You don't know that person.
You have no psychological,you know, connection to them.
But if someone you know and love and trustnow, there's levels and layers
of this psychological dynamic,the power differential,
(54:14):
the worry that they're goingto get in trouble.
And also if it's someone you knowand love and trust they're grooming you,
they're not going to go right for
they're not going to pull youinto the bushes and rape you.
They're going to startwith massaging your legs, tickling
your back,getting you accustomed to touching.
That's another thing
parents should look out for anyonewho loves to throw your kids in the air.
(54:35):
And what they're a lot of theseperpetrators do is they will
normalize touching.
They'll normalize touching with your kids.
And we as parents are terrible.
We're like, oh, go hug your uncle goodbye.
And when your kid's like, gunshy about it right there.
Come on, go give him a hug.
Go give him a hug because it's awkward.
Now the uncle is offended.
(54:55):
Okay? Your kid's trying to signal to youthere's something.
My spidey senses are up about this guy,and I don't want to hug them.
The other thing is, parents.
Oftentimes, kids will test the waters andthey'll try to tell a parent and little,
like I just said, little tiny bits to seeif the parent is going to believe them.
So like in that moment,if you're like, I don't want to kiss them.
And your mom's like,no, go kiss them, go kiss them.
(55:17):
The kids thinking like, I just triedto tell my mom and she didn't believe me.
So she certainly isn't going to believe mewhen I tell them that he's,
you know, putting his fingers here, thereor the other where, you know what I mean?
So there's so many, just thingsthat parents should be looking out for.
Another thing that predators will do,especially because they're usually someone
you trust. Friends.
(55:38):
They'll become friendswith the parents first, right?
And then they'll start to spend moreand more time with the kids.
And one of the sneakiest thingsthat I've ever seen
predators do is they'll point out to theparents when the kids lie,
they'll plant that seed.
A doubt about the child's veracity, right?
Even if they lie about somethingdumb, like,
I don't eat the cookies or whatever,like, oh, wow, he lied about that.
(56:00):
They'll point out any little white liethat kids always tell, right?
So that if the childactually does report it,
then they'll be like,oh, remember that time he lied to you?
Yeah.
And they also do like to isolate themso that they can't have access
to tell anybody.
Yeah I could tell you a thousand thingsI know and just report it.
(56:21):
Oh I'm sorry.That was back to your original question.
What should they doif they should definitely report it. Yeah.
But you have to be careful aboutwho it is, who you're reporting to, right?
Because like, let's say dad's doing itand you tell the mother, right?
Like you meanreport it to the police for sure.
Right.
At least just get it on record somewhere.
(56:42):
Yeah.
You know because unfortunatelyI've seen so many people cover it up.
I just want to make sureit gets reported to the right person.
That's why I like if, if,like if you're a friend,
how do you tell your friend like, hey,I think your kid's being molested,
you know,
so I think definitely should report itto like someone in law enforcement,
(57:02):
whether you are a superstar,I think it is.
You are a pleasure to have you on my show.
Thank you so much for being here. Oh, my.
It was my pleasure and I can't waitto hear from you and bring you on my show.
I'll be there. Okay?
Tell everybody what your show is.
It's calledDefeating the Darkness as well.
Two crime storieswith downtown Heather Brown.
And you should be listeningbecause Jean is coming on my show.
I am, and now you get to hear from herand how amazing she is
(57:25):
because she's always asking other people,but she's the amazing one.
You're so sweet. Thank you. Thank you.
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