June 30, 2025 • 37 mins
Follow Gina: https://www.instagram.com/ginalosborn/
In this gripping episode, trailblazing FBI profiler Jana Monroe shares her experiences from the elite Behavioral Science Unit. From interviewing serial killers to solving one of Florida’s most notorious murder cases, Jana opens up about what it takes to face pure evil — and how she stayed strong as one of the first women in this male-dominated field. Hosted by Gina L. Osborn, this conversation dives deep into the psychology of killers, leadership under pressure, and rare behind-the-scenes moments like working on Silence of the Lambs.
🔥 Don’t miss this powerful inside look at true crime, leadership, and the dark side of human behavior.
Timestamps:
00:01 – Jana Monroe’s groundbreaking career in the FBI
01:59 – Challenges of being a woman in the Behavioral Science Unit
04:47 – John Douglas' intense interview test
08:53 – The chilling Oba Chandler triple murder case
14:57 – How FBI agents interview serial killers
20:26 – Are serial killers born or made?
22:46 – The role of AI in the future of law enforcement
25:31 – Leadership lessons from law enforcement to corporate
26:40 – Consulting Jodie Foster for Silence of the Lambs
27:49 – Hanging up on the FBI Director during a live shootout
35:17 – Powerful leadership advice: say yes, take risks, learn from failure
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
What can the dead tell us?
For trailblazing FBI profiler Jana Monroe.
The answer is everything.
As one of the first women in the FBI'sElite Behavioral Science unit,
Jana spent her careeruncovering secrets from the shadows,
listening to what victims couldn't say
(00:21):
and learning what killers tried to hide.
She interviewed some of the most notoriousserial killers in history
and helped bring justicewhere others saw only leads.
In this episode of Making Maverick Moves,we go beyond the headlines
and into the heart of the hunt with awoman who didn't just break barriers.
(00:42):
She stared into the darkest partsof humanity and didn't blink.
My name is Gina L Osborneand I'm an Army veteran.
I spent six years during the end of theCold War as a counterintelligence agent.
I was appointed as an FBI agent,and during my 22 year career,
worked everythingfrom Asian organized crime to terrorism.
(01:05):
I became the assistant special agentin charge of cyber and computer forensics.
And then I came out of retirementand spent two years
as the safety and security officerat la metro.
Now I'm here to helpyou make your maverick move.
Hey, welcome to the show, Jana.
Oh. Thank you.
Gina, it's my pleasure to be here.
(01:26):
Jana, before we begin,I would like to thank you.
Thank you.
Because as my role modeland a woman who came before me in the FBI
and in law enforcement, for all of uswho came behind you, we want to thank you
for all you did to make it easier for uswhen we when we came through.
Thank you.
And I know it wasn't easy for you, so.Thank you.
(01:48):
I really appreciate it.
Yeah, well,I'm excited to have you on the show.
Because of all of the amazing thingsthat you have done.
But the big thing,and you have a beautiful book
called Hearts of Darkness that we're goingto talk about in a little while
is that you were one of the first womenin the FBI's
Behavioral Science unit.
(02:10):
Back then, what was that like?
Well, when you say back then, you have to,you know, picture the 1990s, right?
And there was no welcome wagon at all.
However,
I mentioned the the decade that it wasbecause things were very different then.
And I think if you putthe social acceptance and the norms on it.
Now, looking back, I don't want to usethe word, you know, like horrified.
(02:34):
That's a little theatrical,but people would be surprised
at the things that were okay to sayto women.
It was just, you know, you had two choicestake it or leave it.
So although nobody was mean to me or bador anything like that,
it would be, you know,I got a t shirt that said, speak slowly.
I'm a natural blond.
That's when blond jokes were out.
(02:56):
So for me, there was a real sense
of needing to prove myself right.
And. What.
Yeah.
What was it like back then in that unit?
Because you went after serial killers,right?
Yeah. Yeah, that that was it.
It was, you know, when I,so when I say prove myself and I think
(03:16):
we all have in a male dominated career,you're going to have those challenges.
And I actually was in nine, different offices throughout my career.
And every time it was starting overwith that one perspective,
no matter what rank I held, you hadto, like, start over to prove yourself.
But I think if you lookat the behavioral science unit,
I felt we had an 18 month training,but I felt very prepared to be
(03:40):
in the unit in the first placebecause I volunteered for so many things.
I went to medical examiner things.
I went to some autopsies,I did ride alongs with police.
I'd been a police officer,so I had worked some homicide cases.
So I took that aggregate of experiencewith the training in the unit,
and I felt very preparedto be a part of it.
(04:02):
And you worked with John Douglas and,
you know,he is renowned for being part of that.
So when you got there,how did they treat you?
And and what was it like?
I mean, I know that you had experiencein law enforcement before working
with dead bodies, but what about thisserial killer business?
I mean, that had been really exciting.
(04:24):
Yes. It wasn't John.
John Douglas is, he's a great guy,and I learned a lot from him.
He was my unit chief.
The funny part about this,and I do mentioned it in the book,
so I was being treated,I would say during
the interview process for it,like with kid gloves.
And I know my male counterpartswho had applied or gone before me
had not gone through this,but what they did, it was John Douglas
(04:46):
and another, agent were interviewing mefor the position and they asked,
you know, your basic questions,what do you bring to the table?
What's your experience?
Why do you want to do this then?
He pushes these five pictures, eightby ten pictures across his desk to me,
and they're grisly bloody crime scenes.
But he didn't ask me any questions.
He just looked at me.
(05:07):
So finally, you know, afterwhat seemed like ten minutes, probably
15 seconds, I said, well,what do you want?
What do you what do you want me to do?
And he says, I'm observing you.
And I said, well,I know you're making me a little nervous.
It's kind of, you know, creepy.
He said, well,I want to see if you're gonna,
like, faint or gasp or,you know, pass out or something.
And I said, well, why would I do that?
And he said, well,
(05:27):
we had a couple of other femalesthat tried and they
they said they couldn'tdo this type of work.
And so I wanted to make sure you could.
I said, well,and I told them my background again.
I said I had been a homicide detective,so why would looking at pictures
make me behave that way?
And I said, plus,
I did a little background search on youlong before the the internet.
And I said you were a, tennis instructorin the military before becoming an agent.
(05:51):
So why would you bemore qualified than I am?
So when you ask, how was he?
I do not recommend that at all.
For an interviewing, technique.
To his credit, he hired me anyway.
That is fantastic.
Well,after everything you have been through,
you said that you had to prove yourselfevery time you got to a new office.
(06:12):
Was there ever a time where you felt that?
You know what I belong?
Yeah, I you know, I did.
I felt that, quite a few times.
But again, each timethat was not the initial feeling.
It was that meeting all my,my male counterpart,
even as a special agent in charge,when I was like in the Phoenix office,
(06:34):
all of my counterpartswhen you do the meet and greet,
so the marshal, the sheriff,the United States Attorney, the tribal
there, it was a tribal, police, DEA,Secret service, all of those were men.
So, again, it's not like you want to wearyour resume on your sleeve,
but there is always that,you know, unconscious bias or the pre,
you know, blink,and they make a snap judgment.
(06:57):
And I felt that.
But I think as I progressed in my career,
the time became shorterand it was typically something
to do with a case or somethingthat was going on.
And I could jump right inand show them that I knew
where that was going and what I was doing.
Right.
And it's funny in your book that somethingthat resonated so much with me,
(07:19):
you talked about being the quick draw,because whenever there was a task
where the men in our organization feltthat it would be better for a woman
to handle that, you know, whether it was,you know, if if children were involved
or I remember in my situation,whenever I was working, human smuggling,
I would always be in charge of the womento take them to the bathroom.
(07:42):
So that was my primary responsibility
a lot of the timewhen I was out on these searches.
So, but, yeah, you termed itquick draw. Yes.
I had bathroom duty with some, but,somewhere there
was, like, child protective servicesinvolved. Or there were the children.
There was nowhere for themto be at the time.
I was without being the volunteer,I was the volunteer.
(08:03):
And like you say, quick draw, quick,go take the kids and draw.
Go, go take them over here.
Do you have any Play-Doh?
And I remember being askedonce they said, well, you don't like
have any toys in your briefcase.
And they were being seriousor in your purse or something.
I'm like, no,that's not the standard issue for the FBI.
Sure, that's what it was.
Just kind of a an expectation.
The only female there.
(08:23):
And then you would, be the nurtureand take care of the children
or the tasks that were not as important.
I remember that, I remember that so much.
Well, when you were in the Tampa office,you worked on the Ober Chandler case
and that was probably, you know,one of the most horrific, murders
(08:44):
because it was Joan Rogersand her two daughters.
They were tourists there and and,and he murdered all three of them.
So you, you talk about in your bookon how you had that case
almost from start to finish,because in the behavioral science unit,
you worked on a lot of casesand on and parts of those cases.
But tell us about that Ober Chandler case
(09:06):
and how that still, sticks with you.
Well, you're right.
And when we were,in the behavioral science
unit, rarely, rarely did you work a casefrom from beginning to finish.
You just worked.
Interview techniques,interrogations, crime scene analysis,
those types of things.Just one piece of it.
Well, this one, I was what they call the, National Center
(09:27):
for the Analysis of Violent Crime.
Coordinator. That's a mouthful.
So I worked
with the behavioral science unitwith all of the local agencies in Tampa.
So they had a casethey thought was appropriate
for the behavioral scienceunit to look at.
I was their coordinator,and I would box up all of the evidence
materials required and send it to them.
(09:47):
So I did get to know all of themguys, in the unit at the time,
this case, as you mentioned, Joan Rogersand her two daughters, Michelle
and Christy, were out of Ohiofor the first time in their lives.
They lived on a farm.
It was one of the daughters,high school graduation.
They wanted to go to Florida.
Fast forward to how do they get to Tampa?
(10:08):
They wanted to go and be out on the oceanand go to Tampa Bay and so they ended up
accepting, a boat ride, with a stranger
who had befriended them at the hotel.
And then unfortunately,very unfortunately, in horrific,
he killed all threeand had, bound their hands
and put 55 pound cinderblocks on themto weight them down.
(10:32):
He threw them out of his his boatvery, very, very tragic.
Tragic anywhere.
But when you look at Tampa
that so much of the areain Florida is tourism, and it really,
really cut into the tourism business,people did not feel safe going there.
So I was there when, the bodies were
dug out of thethe water, which was horrific enough.
(10:54):
And Saint PetersburgPolice Department had the jurisdiction.
They worked on the case.
Fast forward,I get transferred, to Quantico,
and we have regions that we worked,and I had that region.
So after about 16 months,the case went cold.
So they came to Quantico, for help.
So, there were a group of uslooking at the evidence, took it all out.
(11:17):
I mean, just like,what did we miss, as you know.
Well, Gina.
And everything's in the details.
Little details matter.
And so there was a little handwritten notethat was in there, and I said, well,
who wrote that?
And they said, well, JohnRogers, the mother.
I said, well, how do you know that?
Silence.
No, nobodyknew that that was an assumption.
So one of the that I thinktwo of them went to Ohio and showed
(11:41):
her husband the handwriting and he said,that's not my wife or my daughters.
So, what was suggested, what I suggestedwas to blow up the handwriting again.
Now, you'd put it on the internet,you'd do all kinds of things.
Not available to them.
But, all of the business ownersin Dale Mayberry,
which is a huge, street in Tampa,offered to pay for billboards.
(12:03):
So we put the handwriting upin the billboards, and less than 48 hours,
we had quite a few calls and,
three of them were allfor the same name over Chandler.
Wow. So that's how he was caught, right?
And the reason you'd say how how canpeople are familiar with his handwriting?
Well, it's because apparently
he put on aluminum sidingand the screened in porches in Tampa.
(12:25):
What you really needare you get eaten up alive by bugs.
And apparently he did a shoddy jobat doing that.
And he was in small claims court
with quite a few people andand not terribly bright person.
He prolifically would write back nasty
notes, to the people aboutwhy he was not going to pay for them.
So they were, well,very familiar with his handwriting.
(12:47):
Wow, that is an incredible case.
So how does that still stay with you?
But it still stays with me to this day,
because I did see itfrom beginning to end.
And because, like so many of the victims,
innocent people,people doing nothing to warrant this,
not that people deserve to be killed, but,you know, high risk victims.
(13:09):
And let's let's take a look at prostitutesor people that hang around
with a drug cartel or something.
They're putting themselvesin a really high risk environment.
That was not the case with a motherand two daughters
who lived on a small farm in Ohioand went on their first vacation,
and to have them so brutally murdered,and for me to have seen
(13:30):
not only in person,but their pictures over and over again,
it really kind of etched its wayinto my mind in my heart.
Had he done that before?
Yes. In fact, he received the deathpenalty.
He's no longer with us.
But yes, he had not that exact thing.
But he had killed before.
And then, the police were able to uncoverwhere two women from Canada had visited
(13:55):
that area and had come into contactwith him, and he wanted to take them.
One of the,women went on the boat with him.
The other one declined,and he then verbalized,
he articulated to herwhat he wanted to do to her, which was
he was going to tie
her up, put cinderblocks around,or rape her and throw it in the water.
So you oh go ahead. No, I was just saying.
And she had reported that,but not in that much of a detail.
(14:20):
So when she was contacted later,it was almost eerie that she would
she articulated what,you know, what he said to her.
Obviously,we don't know if he said that to them
because they were deceased,
but it sure sounded likethat was a fantasy that he replayed.
Wow. Well, every time I meet someoneand they want to go into the FBI,
(14:40):
they always say that they, well,I would say nine out of ten times.
Everybody has their own fantasyabout going and working
in the behavioral science unit now
known as the Behavioral Analysis, unit.
Right.
So, so tell us,what was a day in the life of Jana Monroe?
Whenever you would go out and say you haveto interview with serial killer one day.
(15:05):
Oh, so the interviews with serial killers.
I yeah, the word funnever really entered into it, but that
they were the most challengingand rewarding because our work
at that time, what we were doingand let's just say a serial killer, right?
They've already been convicted,so we could not offer them
a stay of execution,a better meal, a transfer of prison.
(15:26):
And so that's a real challenge.
So why would they want to talk tous? Right.
Why are they going to tell us anything?
We already know the details of the crime.
We want to hear it from them.
And what I wanted to hear.
And unfortunately,I don't think anybody has those answers.
The why and wewe people that don't do those things
and aren't inclined to aberrant behaviorare always trying to attach our,
(15:48):
our characteristicsand our ethics on them.
And it's I learned that you can't do thatto me.
My definition, their true evil.
But the way I would, approachan interview, of course, I knew the case
inside and out, but like, we were taughtand we did this usually in pairs.
We would go in and in pairs.
Was to just defer to their ego.
(16:10):
Right? One of two things.Just say you were so smart.
You got away with so many things.
You evaded police detection.
How did you do that?
We want to learn from you.
We want to learn from you.
Because one of the things was so manythat did turn themselves in,
or once they were apprehended,they said, you guys are so stupid.
So it's like, yes, yes we are.
Help us, you know, on that or the other.
(16:31):
Sometimes they would feign
because most of them are sociopaths,but they would feign
having some kind of remorse.
And so the approach would be,I'm sure you don't want others
to follow in your footstepsor do what you have done.
So help us understand that betterso that we can come up with some kind of
a, you know, help or treatmentplan for people who are so inclined.
(16:52):
So it sounds likeyou're going after their ego.
Correct.
And therewas no there was shortage of that.
It was amazing.
But I find that to be a fascinating traitof a serial killer.
It's the the ego and know thinkingthat they know more than everybody else
and they're going to get away with it,I would imagine.
(17:13):
Right.
And that's the thing again, we wewe mortals, we people that I mean,
just can't even imaginecommitting something so horrific
if you don't have,if you're not remorseful.
Right.
Some of them are sadbecause they got caught,
not because of what they've done.
They've been found out that that was it.
So they did seem to havebecause they got away with so much and,
(17:34):
so many of it would put some calculation
into the front end of it, like Ted Bundybeing the most prolific with the thought,
the premeditation that, that he had forthat was amazing.
But so
because they've gone through all that,their assumption was that other people
didn't focus on things like thatand didn't understand how much work it was
to commit, or accomplisha crime like that and not be apprehended.
(17:57):
So, of all those serial killersand I think you in your book,
you say you interviewed over850 people while you're.
No, I didn't interview over 850 people.
I worked on over 850 cases and that. Yeah.
And some of those were,you know, for interview techniques.
Some of them were for crime sceneanalysis, link analysis.
But that wasn't interviews in total. No.
(18:20):
So how so what did you learn from them?
I mean, are there any lessonsthat you could share with us,
whether it be leadership lessons or human,
you know, traits that anything that thatthat you could share.
That is an interesting lesson that you'velearned from talking to these people.
Yes. And I
(18:41):
put that in my book also because itstruck me, I, I left the unit.
Most of my male colleagues stayeduntil the end of their career,
and then they were able to take that skillset that they had and turned it into,
you know, other things post career.
I decided to, to leave
and and try, going into FBI leadership,executive leadership.
(19:01):
One of the reasons, was because looking at, you know,
bloody battered bodies all the timeand seeing that always the ugliness
I found, being introspective,that it was changing some
it was definitely changingthe way I looked at people and my outlook.
And I didn't like that my husband helpedbring that to my attention also.
(19:22):
And I thought, you know, okay, I'mtypically I'm
an upbeat personand I wasn't at that time.
So I took the evil and I put that in therebecause I've seen the evil of the few.
I learnedto recognize the good of the many.
And I think that helped
me so much with,I am a people person and I really wasn't
(19:42):
for that period of timeand it helped me get that equilibrium back
and actually be more understandingof people as a whole.
We all are flawed.
We all have things we need to work on.
But overall we're we're good people.
That's a great lesson.
When you would go inand talk to these people,
how much of it would be scienceor research and how much of that
(20:05):
would be your instincts trying to seewhether or not they're telling you
the truth, they're uncoverwhat really happened.
That is a great question.
And to me, Iyou can call it all kinds of things.
Your little inner voice,your intuition, and, you know,
whatever that the little hairson the back of your neck that stick up,
that that other communicationthat we have inside the training
(20:28):
that I had and the situational awarenesshelped me hone in on that.
But that is something that everybody has.
And I would find myself a lot of timestalking with somebody
and like a little shudder or something,you know, because again, like you
and I would be talking about, oh,what kind of nail polish or, you know,
they would be using thatsame law, say, fair attitude
(20:49):
and tone about decapitating someoneor eviscerating someone.
So you'd have to,you know, listen to the words.
But the, body language
tone, everything did not matchwhat they were talking about.
And so I paid attention to
the things that made my skin crawl.
(21:10):
And that, that's certainly not science.
So yeah.
So it was that that balance of the two.
But I think I had that reactionand used it
more in my follow up questionsthan I did with my training.
Interesting.
Do you think people are born that wayor are they made
the serial killers.
(21:31):
You're asking $1 billion questionand I spoke with John Douglas
not too long ago and it was funny,we had the, the same answer.
It it's both.
It really is a combination of things.
And you can do that.
I won't bore you with all the researchand you know statistics and kind of
you can edit them to kind of say whatyou want or lean to whatever you want,
(21:53):
but you can see family membersborn in the same family, same parent, same
household neighborhood,one's a serial killer
or, you know, completely, criminally oriented.
And the other 3 or 4 aren't,and they've got all the same thing.
So that's a study in itself when you'vegot all of those same things together.
And that tends to be moretowards the nature instead of the nurture.
(22:15):
But you can see just the opposite too.
So I really think it's a balance,and I don't think I'm going to live
long enough for somebody to conclusivelygo, we have the answer now.
Even I
don't think I is going to be ableto resolve it in the next couple of years.
Yeah, talk about that.
Do you think that, people inyour position now are going to be replaced
(22:35):
with, I,
I think there's going to I just went toa conference, something and dangerous.
I went to a conference in DC
three weeks ago about this and all of thethe capabilities, the possibilities.
So I don't thinkthey're going to be replaced.
And I don't think there's going to ever belike a it's not going to be like,
yeah, some of the scifi movies, The Terminator or something,
(22:57):
where they completelythe machines take over.
But I do think there's the capabilityof that.
And in areaswhere it's going to be a positive thing,
I think law enforcement and some security,there's going to be some real
uses for that.
But it's going to have, to my opinion,going to have to have some human oversight
with judgment.
Oh, sure.
For sure.
Well, when you look backand it wasn't that long ago
(23:19):
where you and I were young,new agents, right.
And young minds. Gina. Yes you are.
You still are, my dear. You still are.
But I mean, I rememberin just in that in the span of my career
when we would do a wiretap,you know, we would use cassette tapes
and we would have to make
three copies of the tape,and we would have to do this and do that.
And then fast forward ten yearsand my cyber team would do one,
(23:44):
and they would have everythingon one tiny little chip
and they'd be ready to go to discoverythe day that the case came down.
So I mean, I think there's just so muchthat is
has changed from the time where we startedand then now.
But five years from now, you know,how is it going to to work
and how much easier will it befor people and law enforcement
(24:05):
to do their jobs well, how much easierand how much harder?
As you know,the good and the evil of everything.
So you put this technologywith bright people
who are on the wrong side of the law,and it's going to be, you
know, there's just so many possibilitiesjust from the voice.
Then you're doing a scam calls.
You've got the human bots that really,I think they're going to continue to make
those look more and more human.
(24:27):
There's going to be peoplethat are deceived by those.
But at the same point, youput that technology for the use of good.
It's just going to be amazing.
I think there's things that
we probably haven't even thought of yetbecause we're not, you know,
on the cutting edge of that.
But I think it's exciting.
But I'm cautiously excited about it.
Yeah. Yeah. For sure.
(24:47):
Well, you went on to rise to the top, nearly to the top of the FBI.
I, I rememberyou in, Los Angeles after 911,
and then you wound upgoing to be the assistant director
in charge of the cyber divisionwhen it was brand new. So.
And then you went on to corporate lifewhere you held, you know, very high jobs.
(25:07):
So all of this experience that you've had,your law enforcement experience
being in the behavioral science unit,all of that.
What did you take with youwhen you left the Bureau?
And and do you still use any of it now?
Okay, yes.
And I think that'sone of the things I love about having,
new challenges and different assignments.
(25:28):
You learn something eithereven if you're not in learning mode,
you learn something good or bad,you learn it.
And there are takeaways that you canthen apply to your next position.
And I think, initiallyand I spoke to you about this
because I knowyou have a great career in the military
and then in law enforcement and me,law enforcement and law enforcement.
And then I went into corporate andit was literally like landing on the moon.
(25:51):
There were so many differencesin that once
I got the hang of it, understood
and really immersed myself in the culture,
there were many things from a leadershipstandpoint, point from building teams,
from understandingwhat the bottom line for the company is.
Right.
But how to get your team and everybodymoving in that same direction.
(26:14):
All of those were,
things that I learned in eachone of the positions I had previously.
So, yeah.
So this show making Maverick moves,I know in your career
just being such a trailblazerthat you were, even I for
I was a mess when we were talkingabout your early career on how you helped
(26:35):
Jodie Foster prepare for herrole in silence of the lambs.
Because you were the only woman thereto to, mentor her.
Right.
And she wasshe was great, extremely professional.
And, of course, she
she knew all of her linesand everything for the of the film.
And they filmed quite a bit of itat Quantico because they wanted
that piece of it.
(26:55):
And as a new agents classto be as genuine as possible.
But, she and I sat in my officeand she would bring up
parts of the script and say,what would you say that?
Or would a real agentsay something like that?
And I'd either go, yes or no.
Now, of course, I had no influence.
She did with the script writers.
So, you know, she introduced thingsthat she wanted to because to me
(27:19):
it's again, the little details. It'sthe nuanced things.
If you can make somethingas realistic as possible
and still not losethat entertainment value, Why not?
Sure, sure.
Well, as where I was going with the makingMaverick moves, is there a maverick move
that you've made that you can tell usabout that really sort of changed
your leadership style?
(27:41):
I actually have several,
but I won't boreyou with that one that comes to mind.
Because I think it wasone of the boldest decisions
I had was hanging up on the acting FBI,FBI director twice.
And it was during an active shootoutwith FBI agents
and a case called a Texas seven,which was seven escaped convicts
that had killed, some prison guardsand a police officer escaping.
(28:03):
And we had our Swat team there.
And this was an emergency operation centerthat we just set up,
you know, right there on the scene.
And before we could get it set up, I wasthe only one there, and shots were fired.
Well, you know how news travels.
I have no idea who.
Within a few minutes, Washington DCknew about it and the director called me.
(28:24):
I hear another shotand I said, have to go.
And I hung up on him.
Well, he called right back and goes,don't you dare hang up on me again.
And a brand new agent that just.
I didn't even know his name,but he came along and I said, here.
And anyway, I said, well, sir, sorry,I have to hang up.
So I hung up and
then he
called back and I didn't even want to hearwhat what he was going to say.
(28:47):
And so I just gave it to the new agent,said here
to talk to Tom Picard,that he was the acting
and great guy, but Tom was, and I'm goingto generalize here a real New Yorker.
Right?
And he, you know,kind of dropped some words and whatnot
so I could even hear what he was sayingtoday.
But, I mean, a lot of peoplemight think, well,
of course that's the right thingto do, right? Because lives were at stake.
(29:08):
And I was in charge of this,and I didn't know what was going on.
But there were a lot of people,as you know, and a very strict
command and control environmentthat people would have chosen to defer,
I think, to the higher authority,rather than define the protocols.
Which seems odd to peoplethat are in one of those.
But I just thought, you know what?
I would rather be fired, than havesomething go on that I wasn't paying
(29:31):
attention to because I'm tryingto brief him on something that, you know.
So anyway, I just told it to him that
I thought it was inappropriatethat he called in the middle.
In the middle of your shootout?
Yes. Yeah.
I mean, I don't knowif you really call that a maverick move,
but I just remember the adrenaline pumping
and I'm thinking,why is this man bothering me?
And then I realize, you know, hehe is the head of the whole FBI.
(29:53):
Maybe you should show some deference, but.
But that's what I love about you.
And what I admire about youis because every experience
that I have had with you and youand I didn't really know each other that
well when you were the, special agent in charge in Los Angeles.
But we met.
There wassomething had happened right after 911,
and you had to come down to the Santa Anaarea to addressed, address the situation.
(30:18):
And I just remember how confident you are,
how in control and how in charge that
the that you were of that situation.
And where do you get that confidence.
Because there's a lot of peoplewho are listening who who sometimes
struggle with having confidence,but you just make it seem so effortless.
(30:41):
So what is your secret to that?
Well thank you.
I, I don't believe it's a secret,but I've always
paid attention rightwhen I'm in those kind of situations.
And to me, I think I was blessedwith a good, right and wrong litmus.
Okay.
So if you know, to me,like, in the situation you're talking to,
we needed to let thethe agents had a, a grievance.
(31:03):
Right. And they wanted to talk.
So I wanted to listen to them.
That to me,that was the respectful thing to do.
However, it wasn't going to be,you know, not a counselor.
I'm not aso I didn't want it to get out of hand
where somebody, you know,you know, going, so-and-so's a bad person.
It wasn't a gripe session.
And that's how I preface that.
If there are some legitimate complaints,I'm here to listen to them
(31:26):
and I'll do all thatI can to help change that.
But so when someone to start going offthe rails is like, no, no, let me
bring it back. Remember what I said in thein the beginning?
And I think by saying no to very few,
new opportunities and experience,
I learned to gain that confidence.
(31:46):
Because once you've been in a situation,you've got that muscle memory
and it's like, okay, this served mewell last time.
Let's let's do it.You know, a similar way.
No situations, the same,but follow that same path,
right.
And havingto start over so many different times
and so many different placesin the bureau,
I think you probably haveto get the, the hang of it.
(32:09):
But I think, you know, we talk about whenwe're making a maverick move about House,
you know,
sometimes you're afraid to do somethingand that Maverick move is doing it anyway.
So I think you're a great,role model for that, because I'm sure
there are many times in your careerwhere being the only woman in the room
or being the only personwith your experience in the room
(32:30):
that, that you had to take chargeand you know, whether you know it or not,
you're going to take charge and makewhatever needs to happen happen, right?
Absolutely. And I think you're correct.
And there's a lot of women that, you know,that we know the same kind of things.
You take something
that maybe it was a negative experienceand, you know, you were mistreated, right?
But it's like, okay, then my responseis going to be such and such.
(32:53):
And that can't come back to hurt mebecause so-and-so was in the wrong
the first place.
I think I mentioned to you before,and this is very juvenile,
when I was on inspection, which is,like an audit in most corporations,
you audit other offices,one of the inspectors.
So I reported to him he was known to bea very disagreeable person.
Right.
So just just not a happy person.
(33:15):
Well,he didn't like something I've written.
I was in his office, and so he starts
yelling at me, and then he took a bookand threw it at me.
Oh, my. You know, and I'm like,are we six? Yes.
But I, I caught the book and I'm like,okay, so he's still going off
and doing this. And I thought,well, that's very inappropriate.
So he turned around and I threw the bookback and hit him in the head.
(33:37):
Oh boy.
And it's that which is not again,I don't recommend that.
But my point being. Yeah.
What's he going to do?Go tell the assistant director?
Well, I threw a book at herand then she threw it back at me.
I mean, I knew what he was doingwas totally uncalled for.
Totally out of place.
And I just thought,
I'm just going to handle this right now,and then we'll put it to rest.
And he and I got along well.
(33:58):
The rest of the time we weren't buddies,but he never messed with me again, so.
Well, sometimesyou just have to stand your ground.
And whether they like it or not.
That's right. That's great.
That's great.
Well, what's next for you, Jana?
We're excited to hear.
Well, I'm going to follow your lead,I think.
And, well,this is exploratory. At this point.
(34:18):
I'm looking at, potentially hostinga podcast, in the true crime genre.
I don't know if that's going to cometo fruition, but I'm exploring that.
I started a noveland what my thought is on that, Gina is,
pre-publication reviewfor the FBI is arduous and necessary,
and that is,
(34:39):
make sure you get the approvalthat you're not, you know, giving away
any trade secrets or doing some whichof course, I wouldn't want to do anyway.
But if you fictionalize the charactersand use some of the cases
that I was involved with it,you can still get the story out
and make people a little more entertainingwithout having
to be concerned about, you know, maybegiving away a real identity or something.
(35:00):
So I started that,and then I'm continuing to do my public
speaking,on leadership and serial killers.
That is fantastic.
So, is there anything that
you, leadership tip that you want to leaveall of our, our listeners with?
Well,
there'sa lot of them, but I think the one that,
and I've mentioned this before,don't say no to opportunities
(35:25):
that are going to be challengingand give you some more experience,
even if they're a little bitout of your wheelhouse.
I know I volunteered for a lot of things.
And, Gina,I know what a hard worker you are,
but I know most women I'll speakspecifically about that are in leadership,
are want to beyou know, there's some hard work involved,
but you can make that hard work funby volunteering for things,
(35:46):
learning something new.
And we all learn from the negative too.
So if something doesn't go realwell then it's like,
I'm not going to do that again.
So I would just say get out there and,and do as much as you can
in the realm of leadershipand with other people,
because you always learninvaluable lessons.
I think that's great.
So many people are afraidto make mistakes,
and I think people should make mistakesbecause that's the best way to learn.
(36:11):
Absolutely.
When you talk about, well, you know,one of the things that I'm looking at,
you look at 501 C3 and all of these thingswhere,
people are helping others,let's say mothers Against Drunk drive.
You look at Susan Komen,it was breast cancer.
They're all tragedies
that have been motivated by somebodywho was heartfelt at a loss or something.
That's the same way with mistakes.
When you look at that,
(36:31):
it's such a learning thingand we have an emotional response to that.
It's not a good feeling.
You know, it's like,
oh, if there's no such thingas everything being rosy,
and if you sit in your armchairand don't take any risks,
you're not going to learn anything.You're going to stay in your armchair.
So yeah, yeah,
yeah, I'd say don't let analysisparalysis, prevent you from doing things.
That is great advice.
(36:52):
Jana Monroe,thank you so much for being on the show.
I am a huge fan,and I can't wait to see what you do next.
Oh, Gina, thank you so much.
It was truly my honor.And it's great being with you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Making Maverick Moves with Gina Osborne is
produced and edited by Zille Media.
Connect with us on social media at Gina L
(37:14):
osborne.com/making Maverick moves.
Don't miss an episode.
Subscribe to making Maverick Moveswherever you get your podcasts.
What can the dead tell us?
For trailblazing FBI profiler Jana Monroe.
The answer is everything.
As one of the first women in the FBI'sElite Behavioral Science unit,
Jana spent her careeruncovering secrets from the shadows,
listening to what victims couldn't say
(00:21):
and learning what killers tried to hide.
She interviewed some of the most notoriousserial killers in history
and helped bring justicewhere others saw only leads.
In this episode of Making Maverick Moves,we go beyond the headlines
and into the heart of the hunt with awoman who didn't just break barriers.
(00:42):
She stared into the darkest partsof humanity and didn't blink.
My name is Gina L Osborneand I'm an Army veteran.
I spent six years during the end of theCold War as a counterintelligence agent.
I was appointed as an FBI agent,and during my 22 year career,
worked everythingfrom Asian organized crime to terrorism.
(01:05):
I became the assistant special agentin charge of cyber and computer forensics.
And then I came out of retirementand spent two years
as the safety and security officerat la metro.
Now I'm here to helpyou make your maverick move.
Hey, welcome to the show, Jana.
Oh. Thank you.
Gina, it's my pleasure to be here.
(01:26):
Jana, before we begin,I would like to thank you.
Thank you.
Because as my role modeland a woman who came before me in the FBI
and in law enforcement, for all of uswho came behind you, we want to thank you
for all you did to make it easier for uswhen we when we came through.
Thank you.
And I know it wasn't easy for you, so.Thank you.
(01:48):
I really appreciate it.
Yeah, well,I'm excited to have you on the show.
Because of all of the amazing thingsthat you have done.
But the big thing,and you have a beautiful book
called Hearts of Darkness that we're goingto talk about in a little while
is that you were one of the first womenin the FBI's
Behavioral Science unit.
(02:10):
Back then, what was that like?
Well, when you say back then, you have to,you know, picture the 1990s, right?
And there was no welcome wagon at all.
However,
I mentioned the the decade that it wasbecause things were very different then.
And I think if you putthe social acceptance and the norms on it.
Now, looking back, I don't want to usethe word, you know, like horrified.
(02:34):
That's a little theatrical,but people would be surprised
at the things that were okay to sayto women.
It was just, you know, you had two choicestake it or leave it.
So although nobody was mean to me or bador anything like that,
it would be, you know,I got a t shirt that said, speak slowly.
I'm a natural blond.
That's when blond jokes were out.
(02:56):
So for me, there was a real sense
of needing to prove myself right.
And. What.
Yeah.
What was it like back then in that unit?
Because you went after serial killers,right?
Yeah. Yeah, that that was it.
It was, you know, when I,so when I say prove myself and I think
(03:16):
we all have in a male dominated career,you're going to have those challenges.
And I actually was in nine, different offices throughout my career.
And every time it was starting overwith that one perspective,
no matter what rank I held, you hadto, like, start over to prove yourself.
But I think if you lookat the behavioral science unit,
I felt we had an 18 month training,but I felt very prepared to be
(03:40):
in the unit in the first placebecause I volunteered for so many things.
I went to medical examiner things.
I went to some autopsies,I did ride alongs with police.
I'd been a police officer,so I had worked some homicide cases.
So I took that aggregate of experiencewith the training in the unit,
and I felt very preparedto be a part of it.
(04:02):
And you worked with John Douglas and,
you know,he is renowned for being part of that.
So when you got there,how did they treat you?
And and what was it like?
I mean, I know that you had experiencein law enforcement before working
with dead bodies, but what about thisserial killer business?
I mean, that had been really exciting.
(04:24):
Yes. It wasn't John.
John Douglas is, he's a great guy,and I learned a lot from him.
He was my unit chief.
The funny part about this,and I do mentioned it in the book,
so I was being treated,I would say during
the interview process for it,like with kid gloves.
And I know my male counterpartswho had applied or gone before me
had not gone through this,but what they did, it was John Douglas
(04:46):
and another, agent were interviewing mefor the position and they asked,
you know, your basic questions,what do you bring to the table?
What's your experience?
Why do you want to do this then?
He pushes these five pictures, eightby ten pictures across his desk to me,
and they're grisly bloody crime scenes.
But he didn't ask me any questions.
He just looked at me.
(05:07):
So finally, you know, afterwhat seemed like ten minutes, probably
15 seconds, I said, well,what do you want?
What do you what do you want me to do?
And he says, I'm observing you.
And I said, well,I know you're making me a little nervous.
It's kind of, you know, creepy.
He said, well,I want to see if you're gonna,
like, faint or gasp or,you know, pass out or something.
And I said, well, why would I do that?
And he said, well,
(05:27):
we had a couple of other femalesthat tried and they
they said they couldn'tdo this type of work.
And so I wanted to make sure you could.
I said, well,and I told them my background again.
I said I had been a homicide detective,so why would looking at pictures
make me behave that way?
And I said, plus,
I did a little background search on youlong before the the internet.
And I said you were a, tennis instructorin the military before becoming an agent.
(05:51):
So why would you bemore qualified than I am?
So when you ask, how was he?
I do not recommend that at all.
For an interviewing, technique.
To his credit, he hired me anyway.
That is fantastic.
Well,after everything you have been through,
you said that you had to prove yourselfevery time you got to a new office.
(06:12):
Was there ever a time where you felt that?
You know what I belong?
Yeah, I you know, I did.
I felt that, quite a few times.
But again, each timethat was not the initial feeling.
It was that meeting all my,my male counterpart,
even as a special agent in charge,when I was like in the Phoenix office,
(06:34):
all of my counterpartswhen you do the meet and greet,
so the marshal, the sheriff,the United States Attorney, the tribal
there, it was a tribal, police, DEA,Secret service, all of those were men.
So, again, it's not like you want to wearyour resume on your sleeve,
but there is always that,you know, unconscious bias or the pre,
you know, blink,and they make a snap judgment.
(06:57):
And I felt that.
But I think as I progressed in my career,
the time became shorterand it was typically something
to do with a case or somethingthat was going on.
And I could jump right inand show them that I knew
where that was going and what I was doing.
Right.
And it's funny in your book that somethingthat resonated so much with me,
(07:19):
you talked about being the quick draw,because whenever there was a task
where the men in our organization feltthat it would be better for a woman
to handle that, you know, whether it was,you know, if if children were involved
or I remember in my situation,whenever I was working, human smuggling,
I would always be in charge of the womento take them to the bathroom.
(07:42):
So that was my primary responsibility
a lot of the timewhen I was out on these searches.
So, but, yeah, you termed itquick draw. Yes.
I had bathroom duty with some, but,somewhere there
was, like, child protective servicesinvolved. Or there were the children.
There was nowhere for themto be at the time.
I was without being the volunteer,I was the volunteer.
(08:03):
And like you say, quick draw, quick,go take the kids and draw.
Go, go take them over here.
Do you have any Play-Doh?
And I remember being askedonce they said, well, you don't like
have any toys in your briefcase.
And they were being seriousor in your purse or something.
I'm like, no,that's not the standard issue for the FBI.
Sure, that's what it was.
Just kind of a an expectation.
The only female there.
(08:23):
And then you would, be the nurtureand take care of the children
or the tasks that were not as important.
I remember that, I remember that so much.
Well, when you were in the Tampa office,you worked on the Ober Chandler case
and that was probably, you know,one of the most horrific, murders
(08:44):
because it was Joan Rogersand her two daughters.
They were tourists there and and,and he murdered all three of them.
So you, you talk about in your bookon how you had that case
almost from start to finish,because in the behavioral science unit,
you worked on a lot of casesand on and parts of those cases.
But tell us about that Ober Chandler case
(09:06):
and how that still, sticks with you.
Well, you're right.
And when we were,in the behavioral science
unit, rarely, rarely did you work a casefrom from beginning to finish.
You just worked.
Interview techniques,interrogations, crime scene analysis,
those types of things.Just one piece of it.
Well, this one, I was what they call the, National Center
(09:27):
for the Analysis of Violent Crime.
Coordinator. That's a mouthful.
So I worked
with the behavioral science unitwith all of the local agencies in Tampa.
So they had a casethey thought was appropriate
for the behavioral scienceunit to look at.
I was their coordinator,and I would box up all of the evidence
materials required and send it to them.
(09:47):
So I did get to know all of themguys, in the unit at the time,
this case, as you mentioned, Joan Rogersand her two daughters, Michelle
and Christy, were out of Ohiofor the first time in their lives.
They lived on a farm.
It was one of the daughters,high school graduation.
They wanted to go to Florida.
Fast forward to how do they get to Tampa?
(10:08):
They wanted to go and be out on the oceanand go to Tampa Bay and so they ended up
accepting, a boat ride, with a stranger
who had befriended them at the hotel.
And then unfortunately,very unfortunately, in horrific,
he killed all threeand had, bound their hands
and put 55 pound cinderblocks on themto weight them down.
(10:32):
He threw them out of his his boatvery, very, very tragic.
Tragic anywhere.
But when you look at Tampa
that so much of the areain Florida is tourism, and it really,
really cut into the tourism business,people did not feel safe going there.
So I was there when, the bodies were
dug out of thethe water, which was horrific enough.
(10:54):
And Saint PetersburgPolice Department had the jurisdiction.
They worked on the case.
Fast forward,I get transferred, to Quantico,
and we have regions that we worked,and I had that region.
So after about 16 months,the case went cold.
So they came to Quantico, for help.
So, there were a group of uslooking at the evidence, took it all out.
(11:17):
I mean, just like,what did we miss, as you know.
Well, Gina.
And everything's in the details.
Little details matter.
And so there was a little handwritten notethat was in there, and I said, well,
who wrote that?
And they said, well, JohnRogers, the mother.
I said, well, how do you know that?
Silence.
No, nobodyknew that that was an assumption.
So one of the that I thinktwo of them went to Ohio and showed
(11:41):
her husband the handwriting and he said,that's not my wife or my daughters.
So, what was suggested, what I suggestedwas to blow up the handwriting again.
Now, you'd put it on the internet,you'd do all kinds of things.
Not available to them.
But, all of the business ownersin Dale Mayberry,
which is a huge, street in Tampa,offered to pay for billboards.
(12:03):
So we put the handwriting upin the billboards, and less than 48 hours,
we had quite a few calls and,
three of them were allfor the same name over Chandler.
Wow. So that's how he was caught, right?
And the reason you'd say how how canpeople are familiar with his handwriting?
Well, it's because apparently
he put on aluminum sidingand the screened in porches in Tampa.
(12:25):
What you really needare you get eaten up alive by bugs.
And apparently he did a shoddy jobat doing that.
And he was in small claims court
with quite a few people andand not terribly bright person.
He prolifically would write back nasty
notes, to the people aboutwhy he was not going to pay for them.
So they were, well,very familiar with his handwriting.
(12:47):
Wow, that is an incredible case.
So how does that still stay with you?
But it still stays with me to this day,
because I did see itfrom beginning to end.
And because, like so many of the victims,
innocent people,people doing nothing to warrant this,
not that people deserve to be killed, but,you know, high risk victims.
(13:09):
And let's let's take a look at prostitutesor people that hang around
with a drug cartel or something.
They're putting themselvesin a really high risk environment.
That was not the case with a motherand two daughters
who lived on a small farm in Ohioand went on their first vacation,
and to have them so brutally murdered,and for me to have seen
(13:30):
not only in person,but their pictures over and over again,
it really kind of etched its wayinto my mind in my heart.
Had he done that before?
Yes. In fact, he received the deathpenalty.
He's no longer with us.
But yes, he had not that exact thing.
But he had killed before.
And then, the police were able to uncoverwhere two women from Canada had visited
(13:55):
that area and had come into contactwith him, and he wanted to take them.
One of the,women went on the boat with him.
The other one declined,and he then verbalized,
he articulated to herwhat he wanted to do to her, which was
he was going to tie
her up, put cinderblocks around,or rape her and throw it in the water.
So you oh go ahead. No, I was just saying.
And she had reported that,but not in that much of a detail.
(14:20):
So when she was contacted later,it was almost eerie that she would
she articulated what,you know, what he said to her.
Obviously,we don't know if he said that to them
because they were deceased,
but it sure sounded likethat was a fantasy that he replayed.
Wow. Well, every time I meet someoneand they want to go into the FBI,
(14:40):
they always say that they, well,I would say nine out of ten times.
Everybody has their own fantasyabout going and working
in the behavioral science unit now
known as the Behavioral Analysis, unit.
Right.
So, so tell us,what was a day in the life of Jana Monroe?
Whenever you would go out and say you haveto interview with serial killer one day.
(15:05):
Oh, so the interviews with serial killers.
I yeah, the word funnever really entered into it, but that
they were the most challengingand rewarding because our work
at that time, what we were doingand let's just say a serial killer, right?
They've already been convicted,so we could not offer them
a stay of execution,a better meal, a transfer of prison.
(15:26):
And so that's a real challenge.
So why would they want to talk tous? Right.
Why are they going to tell us anything?
We already know the details of the crime.
We want to hear it from them.
And what I wanted to hear.
And unfortunately,I don't think anybody has those answers.
The why and wewe people that don't do those things
and aren't inclined to aberrant behaviorare always trying to attach our,
(15:48):
our characteristicsand our ethics on them.
And it's I learned that you can't do thatto me.
My definition, their true evil.
But the way I would, approachan interview, of course, I knew the case
inside and out, but like, we were taughtand we did this usually in pairs.
We would go in and in pairs.
Was to just defer to their ego.
(16:10):
Right? One of two things.Just say you were so smart.
You got away with so many things.
You evaded police detection.
How did you do that?
We want to learn from you.
We want to learn from you.
Because one of the things was so manythat did turn themselves in,
or once they were apprehended,they said, you guys are so stupid.
So it's like, yes, yes we are.
Help us, you know, on that or the other.
(16:31):
Sometimes they would feign
because most of them are sociopaths,but they would feign
having some kind of remorse.
And so the approach would be,I'm sure you don't want others
to follow in your footstepsor do what you have done.
So help us understand that betterso that we can come up with some kind of
a, you know, help or treatmentplan for people who are so inclined.
(16:52):
So it sounds likeyou're going after their ego.
Correct.
And therewas no there was shortage of that.
It was amazing.
But I find that to be a fascinating traitof a serial killer.
It's the the ego and know thinkingthat they know more than everybody else
and they're going to get away with it,I would imagine.
(17:13):
Right.
And that's the thing again, we wewe mortals, we people that I mean,
just can't even imaginecommitting something so horrific
if you don't have,if you're not remorseful.
Right.
Some of them are sadbecause they got caught,
not because of what they've done.
They've been found out that that was it.
So they did seem to havebecause they got away with so much and,
(17:34):
so many of it would put some calculation
into the front end of it, like Ted Bundybeing the most prolific with the thought,
the premeditation that, that he had forthat was amazing.
But so
because they've gone through all that,their assumption was that other people
didn't focus on things like thatand didn't understand how much work it was
to commit, or accomplisha crime like that and not be apprehended.
(17:57):
So, of all those serial killersand I think you in your book,
you say you interviewed over850 people while you're.
No, I didn't interview over 850 people.
I worked on over 850 cases and that. Yeah.
And some of those were,you know, for interview techniques.
Some of them were for crime sceneanalysis, link analysis.
But that wasn't interviews in total. No.
(18:20):
So how so what did you learn from them?
I mean, are there any lessonsthat you could share with us,
whether it be leadership lessons or human,
you know, traits that anything that thatthat you could share.
That is an interesting lesson that you'velearned from talking to these people.
Yes. And I
(18:41):
put that in my book also because itstruck me, I, I left the unit.
Most of my male colleagues stayeduntil the end of their career,
and then they were able to take that skillset that they had and turned it into,
you know, other things post career.
I decided to, to leave
and and try, going into FBI leadership,executive leadership.
(19:01):
One of the reasons, was because looking at, you know,
bloody battered bodies all the timeand seeing that always the ugliness
I found, being introspective,that it was changing some
it was definitely changingthe way I looked at people and my outlook.
And I didn't like that my husband helpedbring that to my attention also.
(19:22):
And I thought, you know, okay, I'mtypically I'm
an upbeat personand I wasn't at that time.
So I took the evil and I put that in therebecause I've seen the evil of the few.
I learnedto recognize the good of the many.
And I think that helped
me so much with,I am a people person and I really wasn't
(19:42):
for that period of timeand it helped me get that equilibrium back
and actually be more understandingof people as a whole.
We all are flawed.
We all have things we need to work on.
But overall we're we're good people.
That's a great lesson.
When you would go inand talk to these people,
how much of it would be scienceor research and how much of that
(20:05):
would be your instincts trying to seewhether or not they're telling you
the truth, they're uncoverwhat really happened.
That is a great question.
And to me, Iyou can call it all kinds of things.
Your little inner voice,your intuition, and, you know,
whatever that the little hairson the back of your neck that stick up,
that that other communicationthat we have inside the training
(20:28):
that I had and the situational awarenesshelped me hone in on that.
But that is something that everybody has.
And I would find myself a lot of timestalking with somebody
and like a little shudder or something,you know, because again, like you
and I would be talking about, oh,what kind of nail polish or, you know,
they would be using thatsame law, say, fair attitude
(20:49):
and tone about decapitating someoneor eviscerating someone.
So you'd have to,you know, listen to the words.
But the, body language
tone, everything did not matchwhat they were talking about.
And so I paid attention to
the things that made my skin crawl.
(21:10):
And that, that's certainly not science.
So yeah.
So it was that that balance of the two.
But I think I had that reactionand used it
more in my follow up questionsthan I did with my training.
Interesting.
Do you think people are born that wayor are they made
the serial killers.
(21:31):
You're asking $1 billion questionand I spoke with John Douglas
not too long ago and it was funny,we had the, the same answer.
It it's both.
It really is a combination of things.
And you can do that.
I won't bore you with all the researchand you know statistics and kind of
you can edit them to kind of say whatyou want or lean to whatever you want,
(21:53):
but you can see family membersborn in the same family, same parent, same
household neighborhood,one's a serial killer
or, you know, completely, criminally oriented.
And the other 3 or 4 aren't,and they've got all the same thing.
So that's a study in itself when you'vegot all of those same things together.
And that tends to be moretowards the nature instead of the nurture.
(22:15):
But you can see just the opposite too.
So I really think it's a balance,and I don't think I'm going to live
long enough for somebody to conclusivelygo, we have the answer now.
Even I
don't think I is going to be ableto resolve it in the next couple of years.
Yeah, talk about that.
Do you think that, people inyour position now are going to be replaced
(22:35):
with, I,
I think there's going to I just went toa conference, something and dangerous.
I went to a conference in DC
three weeks ago about this and all of thethe capabilities, the possibilities.
So I don't thinkthey're going to be replaced.
And I don't think there's going to ever belike a it's not going to be like,
yeah, some of the scifi movies, The Terminator or something,
(22:57):
where they completelythe machines take over.
But I do think there's the capabilityof that.
And in areaswhere it's going to be a positive thing,
I think law enforcement and some security,there's going to be some real
uses for that.
But it's going to have, to my opinion,going to have to have some human oversight
with judgment.
Oh, sure.
For sure.
Well, when you look backand it wasn't that long ago
(23:19):
where you and I were young,new agents, right.
And young minds. Gina. Yes you are.
You still are, my dear. You still are.
But I mean, I rememberin just in that in the span of my career
when we would do a wiretap,you know, we would use cassette tapes
and we would have to make
three copies of the tape,and we would have to do this and do that.
And then fast forward ten yearsand my cyber team would do one,
(23:44):
and they would have everythingon one tiny little chip
and they'd be ready to go to discoverythe day that the case came down.
So I mean, I think there's just so muchthat is
has changed from the time where we startedand then now.
But five years from now, you know,how is it going to to work
and how much easier will it befor people and law enforcement
(24:05):
to do their jobs well, how much easierand how much harder?
As you know,the good and the evil of everything.
So you put this technologywith bright people
who are on the wrong side of the law,and it's going to be, you
know, there's just so many possibilitiesjust from the voice.
Then you're doing a scam calls.
You've got the human bots that really,I think they're going to continue to make
those look more and more human.
(24:27):
There's going to be peoplethat are deceived by those.
But at the same point, youput that technology for the use of good.
It's just going to be amazing.
I think there's things that
we probably haven't even thought of yetbecause we're not, you know,
on the cutting edge of that.
But I think it's exciting.
But I'm cautiously excited about it.
Yeah. Yeah. For sure.
(24:47):
Well, you went on to rise to the top, nearly to the top of the FBI.
I, I rememberyou in, Los Angeles after 911,
and then you wound upgoing to be the assistant director
in charge of the cyber divisionwhen it was brand new. So.
And then you went on to corporate lifewhere you held, you know, very high jobs.
(25:07):
So all of this experience that you've had,your law enforcement experience
being in the behavioral science unit,all of that.
What did you take with youwhen you left the Bureau?
And and do you still use any of it now?
Okay, yes.
And I think that'sone of the things I love about having,
new challenges and different assignments.
(25:28):
You learn something eithereven if you're not in learning mode,
you learn something good or bad,you learn it.
And there are takeaways that you canthen apply to your next position.
And I think, initiallyand I spoke to you about this
because I knowyou have a great career in the military
and then in law enforcement and me,law enforcement and law enforcement.
And then I went into corporate andit was literally like landing on the moon.
(25:51):
There were so many differencesin that once
I got the hang of it, understood
and really immersed myself in the culture,
there were many things from a leadershipstandpoint, point from building teams,
from understandingwhat the bottom line for the company is.
Right.
But how to get your team and everybodymoving in that same direction.
(26:14):
All of those were,
things that I learned in eachone of the positions I had previously.
So, yeah.
So this show making Maverick moves,I know in your career
just being such a trailblazerthat you were, even I for
I was a mess when we were talkingabout your early career on how you helped
(26:35):
Jodie Foster prepare for herrole in silence of the lambs.
Because you were the only woman thereto to, mentor her.
Right.
And she wasshe was great, extremely professional.
And, of course, she
she knew all of her linesand everything for the of the film.
And they filmed quite a bit of itat Quantico because they wanted
that piece of it.
(26:55):
And as a new agents classto be as genuine as possible.
But, she and I sat in my officeand she would bring up
parts of the script and say,what would you say that?
Or would a real agentsay something like that?
And I'd either go, yes or no.
Now, of course, I had no influence.
She did with the script writers.
So, you know, she introduced thingsthat she wanted to because to me
(27:19):
it's again, the little details. It'sthe nuanced things.
If you can make somethingas realistic as possible
and still not losethat entertainment value, Why not?
Sure, sure.
Well, as where I was going with the makingMaverick moves, is there a maverick move
that you've made that you can tell usabout that really sort of changed
your leadership style?
(27:41):
I actually have several,
but I won't boreyou with that one that comes to mind.
Because I think it wasone of the boldest decisions
I had was hanging up on the acting FBI,FBI director twice.
And it was during an active shootoutwith FBI agents
and a case called a Texas seven,which was seven escaped convicts
that had killed, some prison guardsand a police officer escaping.
(28:03):
And we had our Swat team there.
And this was an emergency operation centerthat we just set up,
you know, right there on the scene.
And before we could get it set up, I wasthe only one there, and shots were fired.
Well, you know how news travels.
I have no idea who.
Within a few minutes, Washington DCknew about it and the director called me.
(28:24):
I hear another shotand I said, have to go.
And I hung up on him.
Well, he called right back and goes,don't you dare hang up on me again.
And a brand new agent that just.
I didn't even know his name,but he came along and I said, here.
And anyway, I said, well, sir, sorry,I have to hang up.
So I hung up and
then he
called back and I didn't even want to hearwhat what he was going to say.
(28:47):
And so I just gave it to the new agent,said here
to talk to Tom Picard,that he was the acting
and great guy, but Tom was, and I'm goingto generalize here a real New Yorker.
Right?
And he, you know,kind of dropped some words and whatnot
so I could even hear what he was sayingtoday.
But, I mean, a lot of peoplemight think, well,
of course that's the right thingto do, right? Because lives were at stake.
(29:08):
And I was in charge of this,and I didn't know what was going on.
But there were a lot of people,as you know, and a very strict
command and control environmentthat people would have chosen to defer,
I think, to the higher authority,rather than define the protocols.
Which seems odd to peoplethat are in one of those.
But I just thought, you know what?
I would rather be fired, than havesomething go on that I wasn't paying
(29:31):
attention to because I'm tryingto brief him on something that, you know.
So anyway, I just told it to him that
I thought it was inappropriatethat he called in the middle.
In the middle of your shootout?
Yes. Yeah.
I mean, I don't knowif you really call that a maverick move,
but I just remember the adrenaline pumping
and I'm thinking,why is this man bothering me?
And then I realize, you know, hehe is the head of the whole FBI.
(29:53):
Maybe you should show some deference, but.
But that's what I love about you.
And what I admire about youis because every experience
that I have had with you and youand I didn't really know each other that
well when you were the, special agent in charge in Los Angeles.
But we met.
There wassomething had happened right after 911,
and you had to come down to the Santa Anaarea to addressed, address the situation.
(30:18):
And I just remember how confident you are,
how in control and how in charge that
the that you were of that situation.
And where do you get that confidence.
Because there's a lot of peoplewho are listening who who sometimes
struggle with having confidence,but you just make it seem so effortless.
(30:41):
So what is your secret to that?
Well thank you.
I, I don't believe it's a secret,but I've always
paid attention rightwhen I'm in those kind of situations.
And to me, I think I was blessedwith a good, right and wrong litmus.
Okay.
So if you know, to me,like, in the situation you're talking to,
we needed to let thethe agents had a, a grievance.
(31:03):
Right. And they wanted to talk.
So I wanted to listen to them.
That to me,that was the respectful thing to do.
However, it wasn't going to be,you know, not a counselor.
I'm not aso I didn't want it to get out of hand
where somebody, you know,you know, going, so-and-so's a bad person.
It wasn't a gripe session.
And that's how I preface that.
If there are some legitimate complaints,I'm here to listen to them
(31:26):
and I'll do all thatI can to help change that.
But so when someone to start going offthe rails is like, no, no, let me
bring it back. Remember what I said in thein the beginning?
And I think by saying no to very few,
new opportunities and experience,
I learned to gain that confidence.
(31:46):
Because once you've been in a situation,you've got that muscle memory
and it's like, okay, this served mewell last time.
Let's let's do it.You know, a similar way.
No situations, the same,but follow that same path,
right.
And havingto start over so many different times
and so many different placesin the bureau,
I think you probably haveto get the, the hang of it.
(32:09):
But I think, you know, we talk about whenwe're making a maverick move about House,
you know,
sometimes you're afraid to do somethingand that Maverick move is doing it anyway.
So I think you're a great,role model for that, because I'm sure
there are many times in your careerwhere being the only woman in the room
or being the only personwith your experience in the room
(32:30):
that, that you had to take chargeand you know, whether you know it or not,
you're going to take charge and makewhatever needs to happen happen, right?
Absolutely. And I think you're correct.
And there's a lot of women that, you know,that we know the same kind of things.
You take something
that maybe it was a negative experienceand, you know, you were mistreated, right?
But it's like, okay, then my responseis going to be such and such.
(32:53):
And that can't come back to hurt mebecause so-and-so was in the wrong
the first place.
I think I mentioned to you before,and this is very juvenile,
when I was on inspection, which is,like an audit in most corporations,
you audit other offices,one of the inspectors.
So I reported to him he was known to bea very disagreeable person.
Right.
So just just not a happy person.
(33:15):
Well,he didn't like something I've written.
I was in his office, and so he starts
yelling at me, and then he took a bookand threw it at me.
Oh, my. You know, and I'm like,are we six? Yes.
But I, I caught the book and I'm like,okay, so he's still going off
and doing this. And I thought,well, that's very inappropriate.
So he turned around and I threw the bookback and hit him in the head.
(33:37):
Oh boy.
And it's that which is not again,I don't recommend that.
But my point being. Yeah.
What's he going to do?Go tell the assistant director?
Well, I threw a book at herand then she threw it back at me.
I mean, I knew what he was doingwas totally uncalled for.
Totally out of place.
And I just thought,
I'm just going to handle this right now,and then we'll put it to rest.
And he and I got along well.
(33:58):
The rest of the time we weren't buddies,but he never messed with me again, so.
Well, sometimesyou just have to stand your ground.
And whether they like it or not.
That's right. That's great.
That's great.
Well, what's next for you, Jana?
We're excited to hear.
Well, I'm going to follow your lead,I think.
And, well,this is exploratory. At this point.
(34:18):
I'm looking at, potentially hostinga podcast, in the true crime genre.
I don't know if that's going to cometo fruition, but I'm exploring that.
I started a noveland what my thought is on that, Gina is,
pre-publication reviewfor the FBI is arduous and necessary,
and that is,
(34:39):
make sure you get the approvalthat you're not, you know, giving away
any trade secrets or doing some whichof course, I wouldn't want to do anyway.
But if you fictionalize the charactersand use some of the cases
that I was involved with it,you can still get the story out
and make people a little more entertainingwithout having
to be concerned about, you know, maybegiving away a real identity or something.
(35:00):
So I started that,and then I'm continuing to do my public
speaking,on leadership and serial killers.
That is fantastic.
So, is there anything that
you, leadership tip that you want to leaveall of our, our listeners with?
Well,
there'sa lot of them, but I think the one that,
and I've mentioned this before,don't say no to opportunities
(35:25):
that are going to be challengingand give you some more experience,
even if they're a little bitout of your wheelhouse.
I know I volunteered for a lot of things.
And, Gina,I know what a hard worker you are,
but I know most women I'll speakspecifically about that are in leadership,
are want to beyou know, there's some hard work involved,
but you can make that hard work funby volunteering for things,
(35:46):
learning something new.
And we all learn from the negative too.
So if something doesn't go realwell then it's like,
I'm not going to do that again.
So I would just say get out there and,and do as much as you can
in the realm of leadershipand with other people,
because you always learninvaluable lessons.
I think that's great.
So many people are afraidto make mistakes,
and I think people should make mistakesbecause that's the best way to learn.
(36:11):
Absolutely.
When you talk about, well, you know,one of the things that I'm looking at,
you look at 501 C3 and all of these thingswhere,
people are helping others,let's say mothers Against Drunk drive.
You look at Susan Komen,it was breast cancer.
They're all tragedies
that have been motivated by somebodywho was heartfelt at a loss or something.
That's the same way with mistakes.
When you look at that,
(36:31):
it's such a learning thingand we have an emotional response to that.
It's not a good feeling.
You know, it's like,
oh, if there's no such thingas everything being rosy,
and if you sit in your armchairand don't take any risks,
you're not going to learn anything.You're going to stay in your armchair.
So yeah, yeah,
yeah, I'd say don't let analysisparalysis, prevent you from doing things.
That is great advice.
(36:52):
Jana Monroe,thank you so much for being on the show.
I am a huge fan,and I can't wait to see what you do next.
Oh, Gina, thank you so much.
It was truly my honor.And it's great being with you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Making Maverick Moves with Gina Osborne is
produced and edited by Zille Media.
Connect with us on social media at Gina L
(37:14):
osborne.com/making Maverick moves.
Don't miss an episode.
Subscribe to making Maverick Moveswherever you get your podcasts.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.