March 24, 2025 • 25 mins
Courage isn't just about jumping out of planes or standing before a roaring crowd. It's the quiet, relentless force behind every bold decision, every career pivot, and every moment you refuse to settle for less. It also keeps so many people stuck, afraid to take the next step. Today, we're breaking down courage - what it really is, how to strengthen it, and why it's the key to making your Maverick Move.
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(00:01):
Courage isn't just about jumpingout of planes or standing
in front of a roaring crowd.
It's the quiet, relentless forcebehind every bold decision.
Every career pivot, every moment.
You refuse to settle for less.
It's also that thing thatkeeps so many people stuck,
(00:22):
afraid to take that next step.
Today we are breaking down courage.
What it really is, how tostrengthen it, and why it's the
key to making your maverick move.
My guest today knowsCourage inside and out.
Sandra Ford Walston is known as thecourage expert and for good reason.
(00:45):
She's built a career out of teachingpeople how to claim their courage.
Her internationally recognized workhas changed lives, but before she
became a bestselling author andsought after coach and trainer, Sandra
made bold career shifts every six toeight years, fearlessly reinventing
(01:06):
herself over and over again.
Her books, including courage, theheart and Spirit of every woman.
Have been endorsed by the likes ofMaryanne Williamson and Jack Canfield,
and she's worked with executives,organizations, and individuals worldwide
to make courage a daily practice.
(01:45):
Welcome to the show, Sandra.
Thank you.
I'm so excited to be with you.
Well, I'm excited to talk aboutcourage because that is something
that is near and dear to my heart.
So I wanna ask you as we begin, whatis the definition of courage and why
do so many people misunderstand it?
(02:06):
Well, what's funny, Gina, is thatyou just said what the definition is.
You said that courageis close to my heart.
Well, actually, the etymologyof the word curry is medieval
old French, meaning heart.
And spirit.
So when you look at what that is, is howfull is your heart with your courage?
(02:27):
And why it's so difficult for peopleis because it's an intangible.
If you think about a list ofvirtues, let's just say passion,
grace, they're all abstract.
So it makes it very hard for peopleto accept that the definition of
courage is just medieval old Frenchcollage, meaning heart and spirit.
And as Aristotle said, courage isthe first of the virtues making
(02:50):
all the other virtues possible.
When I think about courage, you're right.
I think about it coming from myheart, having that determination,
having that grace that you talkedabout, bleeding with my heart.
Yes, exactly.
But what begins to happen is that peopleconfuse, you know, it's a human condition.
What can I say in our culturethat believes that courage
(03:12):
is the same as bravery.
So part of my task for 30 yearsis to hone in on people accepting
that courage is heart and spirit.
So instead they create dualities.
So courage and bravery.
Bravery is actually physical courage.
Valor.
My fists are up right now.
(03:33):
My hands are up and you can see me.
Or it has to do with fear that we'restuck in, oh, it's either courage or fear.
And I got to have couragebecause I have so much fear.
And fear is a big part in our culture.
And to go back to bravery, I justthought of something that friends will
send me articles about courage, andbelieve it or not, in the first paragraph
(03:55):
they'll mention the word courage.
And then in the secondsentence, it'll be bravery.
They are not synonymous terms.
Many times it's just the duality thatwe're stuck in about what courage is.
If people are kind of stuck thinkingthat, well, I have to be brave in order
to have courage, you really don't.
You just have to have the heart,and I'm assuming the heart needs
(04:19):
to believe in what you're doingin order for you to have courage.
Yes.
The heart needs to know that you arestanding in your true self, who you
really are not turning a blind eye tosomething else and saying, and pretending
like, oh, well, this, this is okay.
Or swallowing your voice.
Swallowing your voice is a big one.
(04:41):
What would you say is the biggestinternal and external barriers that keep
people from stepping into their courage?
Well.
Lack of self-discipline.
And I find that's abig one on many venues.
Lack of self-discipline,stuck in status quo.
We're just doing the same thing overand over again, not looking at what has
(05:05):
centered what would be our true self.
I'm gonna go back to that true self.
Um, not standing in our trueself constant judgements.
We have going on.
I mean, the ego controls most of us.
If we can't, can't overcomethe ego to say, wait a minute,
this is not true for me.
I need to stand in my true self.
(05:26):
Then we've lost our courage.
We've thrown it away.
The other one is self-doubt.
Well, there's a lot of chatterthat goes on with self-doubt.
Well, I'm not good enough.
I'll look like I'm stupid.
Why should I do this?
Let me just swallow my voice.
So a lot of times it's the self-doubt.
It's that chatter that we have going onin our head, the ego that's undermining
(05:49):
us from standing in our courage anddeclaring, and that's a powerful word,
declaring that I do have courage.
And on top of that, Gina, I foundthat linguistics is a, is a part
of our human condition, that wedon't really have the tools in which
to speak in a linguistic manner.
And as a coach, a big part of mystudying to be a coach, uh, LI
(06:13):
certified coach, is linguistic skills.
So what do I mean by that?
What would be an example thatthe listeners could take away?
So if I find that I'm.
Just not feeling like I knowthe know the answer to something
or I'm gonna look stupid.
I will say, you know, this takes alot of courage for me to share that.
(06:34):
I don't really know what thistopic means, whatever it may be.
So this takes a lot of couragefor me to share blah, blah, blah.
And that sets the tone.
So that's a, that's a hard skill.
That's not an intangible.
That's me speaking up with courage, myvoice with a linguistic skill that can
help me stay centered in my courage.
(06:56):
Does that make sense, Gina?
No, it, it does.
But you talk a lot aboutstanding in your true self.
What do people look likewhen they're standing?
In their true self, well, they'renot swallowing their voice.
So speaking up is a big partof standing in your true self.
You don't want to live your life wherethe outcome is filled with regrets.
(07:18):
I'm an 11th hour hospice volunteerfor over 14 years, and I can tell
you, Gina, that what I see of peopleselling their soul, which would be
lost courage, uh, having regretsabout their life is very prevalent.
So, you know, you want to have, beable to, to stand in your true self so
(07:39):
that you don't have regrets, you don'thave resentments, you don't have any of
those negative feelings in your heart,in your spirit, to take you down on
your last breath that you might have.
In essence, if we say to ourselves afterthe fact, oh, I wish I would've said
this, or I wish I would've said that,then that's sort of telling us that
(08:01):
we need to be using our voice better.
We need to have the courageto say what we mean.
Yes.
And that dovetails into what Iwas trying to give as an example.
People at all levels generallywill say, Sandra, I don't have the
linguistic skills that you have.
And so that's why I said oneexample is this takes a lot of
(08:21):
courage for me to share thiswith you, but Gina, I don't know.
I don't understand what that questionis, or whatever it may be, or I
don't understand that formula.
People, it's like people's ears just openup like, wow, this is a big deal for her.
I need to really listen.
She's declaring that, that she doesn'tunderstand what it is through her
courage, and so that shows vulnerability.
(08:43):
Or I'll say this, this takes a lotof courage for me to be vulnerable.
What is the importance of beingvulnerable when it comes to courage?
Well, you're standing in your true self.
So when you're, when you'rewilling to be vulnerable, you
are truly opening up your heart.
My hands just went around myheart and opened, opened up.
(09:04):
We're opening up our heart to.
Show that side of ourselvesthat we can be vulnerable.
So when you go home at night,you don't have any regrets.
That's true.
You know, it's funny, when I look backon my career, when I really started
becoming an authentic leader, it was whenI became the FBI put me in charge of cyber
(09:27):
and computer forensics in Los Angeles.
I was on our inspectionstaff and I had gone out.
Across the country, and I had inspectedcyber programs, but I didn't really
have any technical skill, if you will.
I was always the one trying tofigure out what's wrong with my
computer when it wasn't turned on.
So that was me.
And then they put me in charge of thiscyber and computer forensics program.
(09:50):
And it was interesting because allalong I had been a lead from the front.
Leader, and yet when you lack thattechnical skill that everybody
else has, you have to rely onthose other leadership skills.
So I had to rely on my communication,my problem solving skills.
I had just come from FBI headquarters,so I knew where all the money trees were,
(10:13):
and it wasn't until I had to rely onthose softer skills to be a good leader.
That's when I really startedto lead authentically.
Yeah.
And you know, I've always saidfor years it is not softer skills.
It's the real skills for sure.
What are some daily habits ormindset shifts that can help someone
(10:35):
strengthen their reservoir of courage?
Well, one example would be toadmit your mistakes right away.
Just own up to, to the mistake,have the courage to be vulnerable.
There's that word again to revealthat, Hey, you guys, I got this wrong.
Please forgive me, but I'm, letme get back to it and face it.
(10:56):
Another one is challenge the status quo.
Most people will just dowhatever they are told.
Penn State did research on that,and they said that most people
will, 98% will just be followers.
So even if there's something really.
Terrible going on cheatingor fixing the books.
Most people will turn a blind eye.
(11:17):
So challenging the statusquo, I think would be one.
Let me think of standing in.
Complacency and conformity.
Complacency and conformityare courage killers.
So anytime that we just staystuck in what that situation,
we're not, we are not moving.
And people will say, well, I had regrets.
Like one man, I was doingtraining for a CPA firm.
(11:40):
And the man finally left thefirm and I said, well, are
you glad you left the firm?
And he said, yes.
And I said, any regrets?
And he said, yes, I wish Iwould've done it five years ago.
That's true.
So maybe PE people can make a listof all of the things that they, they
regret in their life, and then reallykind of take a look and take some
(12:01):
inventory and figure out, okay, wellwhat do I need to do now in order to
not have those regrets in the future?
Absolutely.
And that is a powerful courageaction because like I said, going
back to sitting with people in11th hour, they can't do anything.
They're filled with their regrets,and I can see the bitterness
in some of them at times.
(12:23):
So it's, it's really important to,to stand in your, in your true self.
One of my favorite quotes is by AnisNin says, and the day came when the
risk to remain tight in a bud was morepainful than the risk it took to blossom.
What does that mean to you?
Well, the risk it took to blossomis, is claim claiming your courage.
(12:46):
So you're a tight butt andyou're restricted, and the ego is
chattering about how you need to.
Stay.
Aight bud.
As compared to my hands just went outbig, uh, as compared to blossoming.
Be blossoming would becoming to your true self.
So I would ask, how often doyou display everyday courage?
I mean, come it's courage.
It's not like.
(13:07):
The sensational, the amazing,the tragic, the scandalous are
glamorizing the superficial.
No, that's not what courage is about,but that's what our culture tries
to sell to us as to what courage is.
So we're looking at how I can standin my true self and everyday courage.
Not some, not something that'slike, wow, you know, uh, I did this
(13:28):
or I did that, or something big.
Or I saved a drowning childthat would be physical.
Courage, but how do Idisplay everyday courage?
For example, if we're at work, howoften do I speak up in my true self?
And that goes back to what I just said ora little earlier, which is so critical.
It's the lack of linguistic skillsthat function around courage speaking.
(13:53):
Standing in your true selfand saying the word courage.
Like the other day, I am thislady that runs a company.
I said to her, do you have courage?
And she goes, yes.
And she goes, yes.
I, I'm, I'm very pleased with my business.
And she brought up something about, shehad two daughters, one four and one six.
And so I looked at her andI just kind of stood there.
(14:13):
And so I said, so Mary, I'm justcurious, when was the last time you used
the word courage with your daughters?
She just looked at me.
And said, oh my gosh,Sandra, I don't use it.
So that's where it starts.
It's simple.
You know, we talk a lot aboutmaking Maverick moves on this
(14:33):
podcast because that's the nameof it, making Maverick moves.
Love it.
And if someone is sitting on theedge of making their maverick move,
and you know, we, we talk aboutMaverick moves in different ways.
Maverick moves can be a big leap,or it can be one of the many steps
that allow us to make that big leap.
So for anyone listening, ifthey're feeling stuck, what's the
(14:56):
first step that they should take?
Stop.
Stop and reflect.
Reflect on what level their reservoirof courage is, is in, so that they can
begin to discern why are they stuckin this making this maverick move?
Probably it's a, it's an old story.
It's an old chatter storythat keeps them stuck.
(15:18):
For example, I have a successfularchitect, uh, coaching client,
and we were able to dig out thatthrough his whole life he has.
I've been attached to aphrase called painfully shy.
I don't, I'm not as successfulas I could be, Sandra, because
I'm, I'm just painfully shy.
I'm an introvert and I just, Ijust have a hard time speaking up.
(15:42):
So those speaking up linguisticsuggestions that I had, it's
something that he now uses.
Another example would bebeing stuck on automatic.
We all have a human condition.
Let's admit it.
We all know, you know, if it's aroundfear or the chatter of why I can't,
I can't make this maverick move.
You know, we're stuck on automatic.
(16:03):
And so finding out why we are stuckin the maverick move is one of the
first things, and that's internal.
So a lot of what of my workis, is grounding abstracts into
concretes being stuck in automatic.
Is a big one.
So if we think about automatic, I alwaysthink about how your wings may have
been clipped while you were growing up.
(16:25):
Painfully shy.
He brought it back to his childhood,that he's always been attached to that.
But if you think about how yourwings have been clipped while you
were growing up, they can be mended.
When you take on your, and claim yourcourage in your heart so that you have
a full reservoir of courage in yourheart and which to draw from, and simply
(16:48):
start using the word start saying theword, like when that lady looked at me
blank and said, oh my gosh, Sandra, Ido not use the word with my daughters.
That would be one of the first steps.
What is that mind shift that weneed to take so that we're not.
On automatic or we're not inprocrastination mode, so we can
(17:09):
turn that hesitation into momentum.
So I'm gonna give a phrase, and I saythis phrase when I'm doing training
or whatever I may be speaking, I maybe doing, is I'll have people say, say
this with me right now and I'm gonnasay it and then we'll say it again.
I am unwilling to sell my soul.
(17:32):
I am unwilling to sell my soul.
That's what changes the shift,because selling your soul means
you threw away your courage.
So your reservoir of courage isgonna be minimal for you to draw on.
So selling your soul, thatmeans not using your voice.
Selling your soul meansmaintaining that status quo.
(17:54):
Selling your soul means not taking thesteps that you need to take for yourself.
Right, the unwillingness to bevulnerable to the unwillingness to
step up and declare, and that's areally powerful linguistic word.
Declare I, I have the phrase DCIA,declaration of courageous intention.
(18:15):
What is your courageous intention?
The courage and courageactions more into the concrete.
You know, it's interesting whenyou talk about vulnerability.
Men don't like to be vulnerable.
If you're a woman, especially ifyou're a woman in a male dominated
workplace, that's the last thingyou want to be is vulnerable.
At least that's what I thoughtin the beginning of my career.
(18:37):
But at the end of my career, I foundthat, again, that vulnerability
made me a better leader.
Oh, so glad to hear that, Gina.
Absolutely.
Uh, vulnerability is a precious tool,and once again, the way I handle
the vulnerability is I will say,linguistically speaking, that this takes
(18:59):
a lot of courage for me to be vulnerableand share with you, blah, blah, blah.
When you put that kind of linguisticson the table, like I said before,
people's ears just open up andsay, they give you a break.
Wow, this is a big deal for her.
We need to really listen to this.
Usually people will come to say,I admire, I admire Sandra, that
you had the courage to say that.
(19:20):
I mean, they detect it.
You know, I, I hate to say that out ofthe 30 years of research, that speaking
up would be the most important, but Ikind of feel that way because when we
swallow our voice, we sell our soul.
Yeah.
Well, in your book, I found itinteresting, the statistic because
you went out and you spoke to all ofthese people and tell us the statistic
(19:42):
as how many people felt that they hadcourage and were living a life with
courage, and how many people didn't.
Only about 10% felt that they had.
What's interesting is the othernight I was out with some friends
and the, the waitress was a youngwoman and we started chatting and
she said she was from Los Angeles.
And I said, well, I'm from Los Angeles.
(20:03):
Something came up about what she wasdoing, and I, so I did my usual kind of
set back and said, so I'm just curious.
Do you have courage?
And she immediately just, juststraightened up even more and said, yes.
And I was like blown out becausethat's rarely ever the response.
(20:25):
It's usually something like this.
Well, um, you know, I'm, um, I. I'm, I'msure at times that I've had courage, but
this woman said yes right out of the gate.
She wasn't intimidated, she wasn'tbeing bold, she was just really clear
that she had courage and said yes.
(20:46):
Yes is a powerful word toaccept that you have courage.
I agree.
I agree.
Do you think it, it's what you see ingrowing up where, you know, you see people
taking those risks and, and also I think alot of times we don't give ourself credit.
For the courageous thingsthat we do in any given day.
I mean, if you go back and look at yourday, think of all of the things where, you
(21:09):
know, you had the courage to help someone.
You had the courage to step out ofline and, and do something else.
You know, I mean, I, I don't thinkwe give us, give ourselves the credit
for the courage and, and maybe that'swhere we need to start in order to
be able to push past that analysis.
Pul paralysis.
Yes.
It, we discount ourselves.
(21:30):
Absolutely we discount ourselves.
You know, when you talk about the, thespeaking up, I, I had somebody ask me the
other day, um, what would be the highestintegral level of courage consciousness.
So, 'cause that's what we're talkingabout is our courage consciousness.
And I came up with wherecourage meets grace.
Mm-hmm.
Grace would be on the list of virtues.
(21:52):
And if you can have wherecourage meets grace.
Representing a the highestlevel of courage consciousness.
That means that you are leaving anindelible mark on someone else's heart,
which is what you just said, Gina.
Mm-hmm.
You've, you've helped someone elseand you've left a mark on their
heart, and they'll remember you.
(22:13):
They'll remember you, how youtouched your, touched their life.
Sure, and that goes to peoplewho are in leadership positions.
Because really when you think back aboutthe best leaders, this is something
that we've talked about, Sandra, thebest leaders that you followed were
the people who cared about you, thepeople who were interested in you.
(22:33):
I. Yes.
Yes.
It wasn't like, well, she wasthe smartest person in the room.
She had the, went to the bestcollege, the most expensive college.
No, it's, it's, it's howthey touched your heart.
How they left you withremembering like, wow, he or she
noticed me or appreciates me.
So yes.
So where courage meets grace.
(22:54):
It is a big one for me.
I, I wanna go down knowing ishopefully where courage meets grace,
where I've touched lives, where I'veleft a, a mark on somebody's heart.
And one of my best quotes from youis there is a direct correlation
between your success quotientand your courage quotient.
What does that mean?
(23:15):
So the more courage you have, the moreyou can stand in your true self, the more
you're apt to move through your life.
It with success.
You know, it's not like how much moneyI made or what my title is, it's, it's
what, going back to touching someone'slife, well, most, most importantly,
probably being true to myself.
You know, I always askpeople a critical question.
(23:37):
Kind of a closing comment for meis, what would you do right now
if you had unlimited courage?
And anytime I've used thatin different work settings.
Everybody has one.
What would you do right nowif you had unlimited courage?
There's something right there that, thatpeople will say, well, I've been putting
(23:58):
off, making, looking, looking for a job.
I've been putting off havinga conversation with my
husband, blah, blah, blah.
So there's always somethingthat people know that they have
been, that they have not done.
What would you do right nowif you had unlimited courage
and then going back to that?
Quote that I asked everybody to saywith me, I'm unwilling to sell my soul.
(24:22):
I love that.
I love that.
Sandra, thank you so muchfor being on the show.
This is one of my favorite topics.
Uh, I think that you are amazing and,uh, the work that you have done to
help so many people have more courage.
It's commendable.
Thank you.
Appreciate that.
(24:47):
Making Maverick moves with Gina l Osborneis produced and edited by Lisa Osborne.
Theme Music, Maverick Heart is byretired IRS, criminal investigative
attache Clarissa Balada.
Connect with us on social media throughgina l osborne.com/making Maverick
moves, and don't miss an episode.
(25:08):
Subscribe to Making Maverick Moveswherever you get your podcasts.
Courage isn't just about jumpingout of planes or standing
in front of a roaring crowd.
It's the quiet, relentless forcebehind every bold decision.
Every career pivot, every moment.
You refuse to settle for less.
It's also that thing thatkeeps so many people stuck,
(00:22):
afraid to take that next step.
Today we are breaking down courage.
What it really is, how tostrengthen it, and why it's the
key to making your maverick move.
My guest today knowsCourage inside and out.
Sandra Ford Walston is known as thecourage expert and for good reason.
(00:45):
She's built a career out of teachingpeople how to claim their courage.
Her internationally recognized workhas changed lives, but before she
became a bestselling author andsought after coach and trainer, Sandra
made bold career shifts every six toeight years, fearlessly reinventing
(01:06):
herself over and over again.
Her books, including courage, theheart and Spirit of every woman.
Have been endorsed by the likes ofMaryanne Williamson and Jack Canfield,
and she's worked with executives,organizations, and individuals worldwide
to make courage a daily practice.
(01:45):
Welcome to the show, Sandra.
Thank you.
I'm so excited to be with you.
Well, I'm excited to talk aboutcourage because that is something
that is near and dear to my heart.
So I wanna ask you as we begin, whatis the definition of courage and why
do so many people misunderstand it?
(02:06):
Well, what's funny, Gina, is thatyou just said what the definition is.
You said that courageis close to my heart.
Well, actually, the etymologyof the word curry is medieval
old French, meaning heart.
And spirit.
So when you look at what that is, is howfull is your heart with your courage?
(02:27):
And why it's so difficult for peopleis because it's an intangible.
If you think about a list ofvirtues, let's just say passion,
grace, they're all abstract.
So it makes it very hard for peopleto accept that the definition of
courage is just medieval old Frenchcollage, meaning heart and spirit.
And as Aristotle said, courage isthe first of the virtues making
(02:50):
all the other virtues possible.
When I think about courage, you're right.
I think about it coming from myheart, having that determination,
having that grace that you talkedabout, bleeding with my heart.
Yes, exactly.
But what begins to happen is that peopleconfuse, you know, it's a human condition.
What can I say in our culturethat believes that courage
(03:12):
is the same as bravery.
So part of my task for 30 yearsis to hone in on people accepting
that courage is heart and spirit.
So instead they create dualities.
So courage and bravery.
Bravery is actually physical courage.
Valor.
My fists are up right now.
(03:33):
My hands are up and you can see me.
Or it has to do with fear that we'restuck in, oh, it's either courage or fear.
And I got to have couragebecause I have so much fear.
And fear is a big part in our culture.
And to go back to bravery, I justthought of something that friends will
send me articles about courage, andbelieve it or not, in the first paragraph
(03:55):
they'll mention the word courage.
And then in the secondsentence, it'll be bravery.
They are not synonymous terms.
Many times it's just the duality thatwe're stuck in about what courage is.
If people are kind of stuck thinkingthat, well, I have to be brave in order
to have courage, you really don't.
You just have to have the heart,and I'm assuming the heart needs
(04:19):
to believe in what you're doingin order for you to have courage.
Yes.
The heart needs to know that you arestanding in your true self, who you
really are not turning a blind eye tosomething else and saying, and pretending
like, oh, well, this, this is okay.
Or swallowing your voice.
Swallowing your voice is a big one.
(04:41):
What would you say is the biggestinternal and external barriers that keep
people from stepping into their courage?
Well.
Lack of self-discipline.
And I find that's abig one on many venues.
Lack of self-discipline,stuck in status quo.
We're just doing the same thing overand over again, not looking at what has
(05:05):
centered what would be our true self.
I'm gonna go back to that true self.
Um, not standing in our trueself constant judgements.
We have going on.
I mean, the ego controls most of us.
If we can't, can't overcomethe ego to say, wait a minute,
this is not true for me.
I need to stand in my true self.
(05:26):
Then we've lost our courage.
We've thrown it away.
The other one is self-doubt.
Well, there's a lot of chatterthat goes on with self-doubt.
Well, I'm not good enough.
I'll look like I'm stupid.
Why should I do this?
Let me just swallow my voice.
So a lot of times it's the self-doubt.
It's that chatter that we have going onin our head, the ego that's undermining
(05:49):
us from standing in our courage anddeclaring, and that's a powerful word,
declaring that I do have courage.
And on top of that, Gina, I foundthat linguistics is a, is a part
of our human condition, that wedon't really have the tools in which
to speak in a linguistic manner.
And as a coach, a big part of mystudying to be a coach, uh, LI
(06:13):
certified coach, is linguistic skills.
So what do I mean by that?
What would be an example thatthe listeners could take away?
So if I find that I'm.
Just not feeling like I knowthe know the answer to something
or I'm gonna look stupid.
I will say, you know, this takes alot of courage for me to share that.
(06:34):
I don't really know what thistopic means, whatever it may be.
So this takes a lot of couragefor me to share blah, blah, blah.
And that sets the tone.
So that's a, that's a hard skill.
That's not an intangible.
That's me speaking up with courage, myvoice with a linguistic skill that can
help me stay centered in my courage.
(06:56):
Does that make sense, Gina?
No, it, it does.
But you talk a lot aboutstanding in your true self.
What do people look likewhen they're standing?
In their true self, well, they'renot swallowing their voice.
So speaking up is a big partof standing in your true self.
You don't want to live your life wherethe outcome is filled with regrets.
(07:18):
I'm an 11th hour hospice volunteerfor over 14 years, and I can tell
you, Gina, that what I see of peopleselling their soul, which would be
lost courage, uh, having regretsabout their life is very prevalent.
So, you know, you want to have, beable to, to stand in your true self so
(07:39):
that you don't have regrets, you don'thave resentments, you don't have any of
those negative feelings in your heart,in your spirit, to take you down on
your last breath that you might have.
In essence, if we say to ourselves afterthe fact, oh, I wish I would've said
this, or I wish I would've said that,then that's sort of telling us that
(08:01):
we need to be using our voice better.
We need to have the courageto say what we mean.
Yes.
And that dovetails into what Iwas trying to give as an example.
People at all levels generallywill say, Sandra, I don't have the
linguistic skills that you have.
And so that's why I said oneexample is this takes a lot of
(08:21):
courage for me to share thiswith you, but Gina, I don't know.
I don't understand what that questionis, or whatever it may be, or I
don't understand that formula.
People, it's like people's ears just openup like, wow, this is a big deal for her.
I need to really listen.
She's declaring that, that she doesn'tunderstand what it is through her
courage, and so that shows vulnerability.
(08:43):
Or I'll say this, this takes a lotof courage for me to be vulnerable.
What is the importance of beingvulnerable when it comes to courage?
Well, you're standing in your true self.
So when you're, when you'rewilling to be vulnerable, you
are truly opening up your heart.
My hands just went around myheart and opened, opened up.
(09:04):
We're opening up our heart to.
Show that side of ourselvesthat we can be vulnerable.
So when you go home at night,you don't have any regrets.
That's true.
You know, it's funny, when I look backon my career, when I really started
becoming an authentic leader, it was whenI became the FBI put me in charge of cyber
(09:27):
and computer forensics in Los Angeles.
I was on our inspectionstaff and I had gone out.
Across the country, and I had inspectedcyber programs, but I didn't really
have any technical skill, if you will.
I was always the one trying tofigure out what's wrong with my
computer when it wasn't turned on.
So that was me.
And then they put me in charge of thiscyber and computer forensics program.
(09:50):
And it was interesting because allalong I had been a lead from the front.
Leader, and yet when you lack thattechnical skill that everybody
else has, you have to rely onthose other leadership skills.
So I had to rely on my communication,my problem solving skills.
I had just come from FBI headquarters,so I knew where all the money trees were,
(10:13):
and it wasn't until I had to rely onthose softer skills to be a good leader.
That's when I really startedto lead authentically.
Yeah.
And you know, I've always saidfor years it is not softer skills.
It's the real skills for sure.
What are some daily habits ormindset shifts that can help someone
(10:35):
strengthen their reservoir of courage?
Well, one example would be toadmit your mistakes right away.
Just own up to, to the mistake,have the courage to be vulnerable.
There's that word again to revealthat, Hey, you guys, I got this wrong.
Please forgive me, but I'm, letme get back to it and face it.
(10:56):
Another one is challenge the status quo.
Most people will just dowhatever they are told.
Penn State did research on that,and they said that most people
will, 98% will just be followers.
So even if there's something really.
Terrible going on cheatingor fixing the books.
Most people will turn a blind eye.
(11:17):
So challenging the statusquo, I think would be one.
Let me think of standing in.
Complacency and conformity.
Complacency and conformityare courage killers.
So anytime that we just staystuck in what that situation,
we're not, we are not moving.
And people will say, well, I had regrets.
Like one man, I was doingtraining for a CPA firm.
(11:40):
And the man finally left thefirm and I said, well, are
you glad you left the firm?
And he said, yes.
And I said, any regrets?
And he said, yes, I wish Iwould've done it five years ago.
That's true.
So maybe PE people can make a listof all of the things that they, they
regret in their life, and then reallykind of take a look and take some
(12:01):
inventory and figure out, okay, wellwhat do I need to do now in order to
not have those regrets in the future?
Absolutely.
And that is a powerful courageaction because like I said, going
back to sitting with people in11th hour, they can't do anything.
They're filled with their regrets,and I can see the bitterness
in some of them at times.
(12:23):
So it's, it's really important to,to stand in your, in your true self.
One of my favorite quotes is by AnisNin says, and the day came when the
risk to remain tight in a bud was morepainful than the risk it took to blossom.
What does that mean to you?
Well, the risk it took to blossomis, is claim claiming your courage.
(12:46):
So you're a tight butt andyou're restricted, and the ego is
chattering about how you need to.
Stay.
Aight bud.
As compared to my hands just went outbig, uh, as compared to blossoming.
Be blossoming would becoming to your true self.
So I would ask, how often doyou display everyday courage?
I mean, come it's courage.
It's not like.
(13:07):
The sensational, the amazing,the tragic, the scandalous are
glamorizing the superficial.
No, that's not what courage is about,but that's what our culture tries
to sell to us as to what courage is.
So we're looking at how I can standin my true self and everyday courage.
Not some, not something that'slike, wow, you know, uh, I did this
(13:28):
or I did that, or something big.
Or I saved a drowning childthat would be physical.
Courage, but how do Idisplay everyday courage?
For example, if we're at work, howoften do I speak up in my true self?
And that goes back to what I just said ora little earlier, which is so critical.
It's the lack of linguistic skillsthat function around courage speaking.
(13:53):
Standing in your true selfand saying the word courage.
Like the other day, I am thislady that runs a company.
I said to her, do you have courage?
And she goes, yes.
And she goes, yes.
I, I'm, I'm very pleased with my business.
And she brought up something about, shehad two daughters, one four and one six.
And so I looked at her andI just kind of stood there.
(14:13):
And so I said, so Mary, I'm justcurious, when was the last time you used
the word courage with your daughters?
She just looked at me.
And said, oh my gosh,Sandra, I don't use it.
So that's where it starts.
It's simple.
You know, we talk a lot aboutmaking Maverick moves on this
(14:33):
podcast because that's the nameof it, making Maverick moves.
Love it.
And if someone is sitting on theedge of making their maverick move,
and you know, we, we talk aboutMaverick moves in different ways.
Maverick moves can be a big leap,or it can be one of the many steps
that allow us to make that big leap.
So for anyone listening, ifthey're feeling stuck, what's the
(14:56):
first step that they should take?
Stop.
Stop and reflect.
Reflect on what level their reservoirof courage is, is in, so that they can
begin to discern why are they stuckin this making this maverick move?
Probably it's a, it's an old story.
It's an old chatter storythat keeps them stuck.
(15:18):
For example, I have a successfularchitect, uh, coaching client,
and we were able to dig out thatthrough his whole life he has.
I've been attached to aphrase called painfully shy.
I don't, I'm not as successfulas I could be, Sandra, because
I'm, I'm just painfully shy.
I'm an introvert and I just, Ijust have a hard time speaking up.
(15:42):
So those speaking up linguisticsuggestions that I had, it's
something that he now uses.
Another example would bebeing stuck on automatic.
We all have a human condition.
Let's admit it.
We all know, you know, if it's aroundfear or the chatter of why I can't,
I can't make this maverick move.
You know, we're stuck on automatic.
(16:03):
And so finding out why we are stuckin the maverick move is one of the
first things, and that's internal.
So a lot of what of my workis, is grounding abstracts into
concretes being stuck in automatic.
Is a big one.
So if we think about automatic, I alwaysthink about how your wings may have
been clipped while you were growing up.
(16:25):
Painfully shy.
He brought it back to his childhood,that he's always been attached to that.
But if you think about how yourwings have been clipped while you
were growing up, they can be mended.
When you take on your, and claim yourcourage in your heart so that you have
a full reservoir of courage in yourheart and which to draw from, and simply
(16:48):
start using the word start saying theword, like when that lady looked at me
blank and said, oh my gosh, Sandra, Ido not use the word with my daughters.
That would be one of the first steps.
What is that mind shift that weneed to take so that we're not.
On automatic or we're not inprocrastination mode, so we can
(17:09):
turn that hesitation into momentum.
So I'm gonna give a phrase, and I saythis phrase when I'm doing training
or whatever I may be speaking, I maybe doing, is I'll have people say, say
this with me right now and I'm gonnasay it and then we'll say it again.
I am unwilling to sell my soul.
(17:32):
I am unwilling to sell my soul.
That's what changes the shift,because selling your soul means
you threw away your courage.
So your reservoir of courage isgonna be minimal for you to draw on.
So selling your soul, thatmeans not using your voice.
Selling your soul meansmaintaining that status quo.
(17:54):
Selling your soul means not taking thesteps that you need to take for yourself.
Right, the unwillingness to bevulnerable to the unwillingness to
step up and declare, and that's areally powerful linguistic word.
Declare I, I have the phrase DCIA,declaration of courageous intention.
(18:15):
What is your courageous intention?
The courage and courageactions more into the concrete.
You know, it's interesting whenyou talk about vulnerability.
Men don't like to be vulnerable.
If you're a woman, especially ifyou're a woman in a male dominated
workplace, that's the last thingyou want to be is vulnerable.
At least that's what I thoughtin the beginning of my career.
(18:37):
But at the end of my career, I foundthat, again, that vulnerability
made me a better leader.
Oh, so glad to hear that, Gina.
Absolutely.
Uh, vulnerability is a precious tool,and once again, the way I handle
the vulnerability is I will say,linguistically speaking, that this takes
(18:59):
a lot of courage for me to be vulnerableand share with you, blah, blah, blah.
When you put that kind of linguisticson the table, like I said before,
people's ears just open up andsay, they give you a break.
Wow, this is a big deal for her.
We need to really listen to this.
Usually people will come to say,I admire, I admire Sandra, that
you had the courage to say that.
(19:20):
I mean, they detect it.
You know, I, I hate to say that out ofthe 30 years of research, that speaking
up would be the most important, but Ikind of feel that way because when we
swallow our voice, we sell our soul.
Yeah.
Well, in your book, I found itinteresting, the statistic because
you went out and you spoke to all ofthese people and tell us the statistic
(19:42):
as how many people felt that they hadcourage and were living a life with
courage, and how many people didn't.
Only about 10% felt that they had.
What's interesting is the othernight I was out with some friends
and the, the waitress was a youngwoman and we started chatting and
she said she was from Los Angeles.
And I said, well, I'm from Los Angeles.
(20:03):
Something came up about what she wasdoing, and I, so I did my usual kind of
set back and said, so I'm just curious.
Do you have courage?
And she immediately just, juststraightened up even more and said, yes.
And I was like blown out becausethat's rarely ever the response.
(20:25):
It's usually something like this.
Well, um, you know, I'm, um, I. I'm, I'msure at times that I've had courage, but
this woman said yes right out of the gate.
She wasn't intimidated, she wasn'tbeing bold, she was just really clear
that she had courage and said yes.
(20:46):
Yes is a powerful word toaccept that you have courage.
I agree.
I agree.
Do you think it, it's what you see ingrowing up where, you know, you see people
taking those risks and, and also I think alot of times we don't give ourself credit.
For the courageous thingsthat we do in any given day.
I mean, if you go back and look at yourday, think of all of the things where, you
(21:09):
know, you had the courage to help someone.
You had the courage to step out ofline and, and do something else.
You know, I mean, I, I don't thinkwe give us, give ourselves the credit
for the courage and, and maybe that'swhere we need to start in order to
be able to push past that analysis.
Pul paralysis.
Yes.
It, we discount ourselves.
(21:30):
Absolutely we discount ourselves.
You know, when you talk about the, thespeaking up, I, I had somebody ask me the
other day, um, what would be the highestintegral level of courage consciousness.
So, 'cause that's what we're talkingabout is our courage consciousness.
And I came up with wherecourage meets grace.
Mm-hmm.
Grace would be on the list of virtues.
(21:52):
And if you can have wherecourage meets grace.
Representing a the highestlevel of courage consciousness.
That means that you are leaving anindelible mark on someone else's heart,
which is what you just said, Gina.
Mm-hmm.
You've, you've helped someone elseand you've left a mark on their
heart, and they'll remember you.
(22:13):
They'll remember you, how youtouched your, touched their life.
Sure, and that goes to peoplewho are in leadership positions.
Because really when you think back aboutthe best leaders, this is something
that we've talked about, Sandra, thebest leaders that you followed were
the people who cared about you, thepeople who were interested in you.
(22:33):
I. Yes.
Yes.
It wasn't like, well, she wasthe smartest person in the room.
She had the, went to the bestcollege, the most expensive college.
No, it's, it's, it's howthey touched your heart.
How they left you withremembering like, wow, he or she
noticed me or appreciates me.
So yes.
So where courage meets grace.
(22:54):
It is a big one for me.
I, I wanna go down knowing ishopefully where courage meets grace,
where I've touched lives, where I'veleft a, a mark on somebody's heart.
And one of my best quotes from youis there is a direct correlation
between your success quotientand your courage quotient.
What does that mean?
(23:15):
So the more courage you have, the moreyou can stand in your true self, the more
you're apt to move through your life.
It with success.
You know, it's not like how much moneyI made or what my title is, it's, it's
what, going back to touching someone'slife, well, most, most importantly,
probably being true to myself.
You know, I always askpeople a critical question.
(23:37):
Kind of a closing comment for meis, what would you do right now
if you had unlimited courage?
And anytime I've used thatin different work settings.
Everybody has one.
What would you do right nowif you had unlimited courage?
There's something right there that, thatpeople will say, well, I've been putting
(23:58):
off, making, looking, looking for a job.
I've been putting off havinga conversation with my
husband, blah, blah, blah.
So there's always somethingthat people know that they have
been, that they have not done.
What would you do right nowif you had unlimited courage
and then going back to that?
Quote that I asked everybody to saywith me, I'm unwilling to sell my soul.
(24:22):
I love that.
I love that.
Sandra, thank you so muchfor being on the show.
This is one of my favorite topics.
Uh, I think that you are amazing and,uh, the work that you have done to
help so many people have more courage.
It's commendable.
Thank you.
Appreciate that.
(24:47):
Making Maverick moves with Gina l Osborneis produced and edited by Lisa Osborne.
Theme Music, Maverick Heart is byretired IRS, criminal investigative
attache Clarissa Balada.
Connect with us on social media throughgina l osborne.com/making Maverick
moves, and don't miss an episode.
(25:08):
Subscribe to Making Maverick Moveswherever you get your podcasts.
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