June 9, 2025 • 48 mins
Follow Gina: https://www.instagram.com/ginalosborn/
From corporate HR to launching her own leadership company, Julie opens up about authenticity, courage, and building trust.
Timestamps:
00:00 - Intro: Julie Farbaniec’s leadership journey
01:43 - Why “just because you think it, doesn’t make it true”
03:27 - The damage of unvalidated assumptions in leadership
06:00 - What is a strategic pause? (Viktor Frankl’s quote explained)
08:19 - How a strategic pause builds more leadership choices
11:20 - Always Be Validating (ABV): A leader’s mindset shift
13:21 - Embracing spectral thinking: multiple truths can exist
16:26 - Julie’s inner critic "Gretchen" and Positive Intelligence
21:43 - Gina’s TEDx story: overcoming public speaking fear
23:05 - Why courage matters more than comfort in leadership
26:16 - Building courage through small acts and micro-wins
27:13 - Julie’s Maverick Move: leaving Blizzard to start her own business
31:05 - Redefining identity: “I used to be… but now I am…”
33:45 - Lessons learned: worthiness and micro-wins
36:12 - How to amplify self-awareness as a leader
38:32 - Identity shifts after leaving law enforcement (Gina’s reflection)
41:12 - Why Girl Scouts’ mission matters for young women
45:41 - Closing poem: A Poem for a New Beginning by John O'Donohue
47:52 - Outro & call to action
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
With two decades at powerhousebrands like Blizzard and Kawasaki.
(00:04):
Julie Farr Banach knows what it takesto lead at the highest level.
But in 2021,she made her boldest maverick move yet.
Founding leadershipenthusiasts to help others do the same.
Julie believes great leadership startswith knowing yourself,
and that means challengingwhat you think you know.
(00:24):
Today, she's here to show ushow deeper self-awareness
and courageous leadershipreally comes to life.
Let's dive in to making maverick moves.
My name is Gina Osborneand I'm an Army veteran.
I spent six years during the end of theCold War as a counter intelligence agent.
I was appointed as an FBI agent,and during my 22 year career,
(00:48):
worked everythingfrom Asian organized crime to terrorism.
I became the assistant special agentin charge of cyber and computer forensics.
And then I came out of retirementand spent two years
as the safety and security officerat la metro.
Now I'm here to helpyou make your maverick move.
(01:08):
Welcome to the show, Julie.
Thank you.
I've got my Girl Scout bracelet on.
It says lift her up.
That makes me feel good.
We know each other
because we are both on the boardof directors for the Girl Scouts.
And you still are.
I still am, Erin.
Yes. Very good. I knew I loved you.
We were kindred spirits.
(01:29):
We are. Absolutely.
We look like we're sisters.
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's the compliment.
Well, there's one thing that really amazes
me and the reasonwhy I wanted to have you on the show.
So just because you thinkit doesn't make it true, that is something
that everyone should think about in thereand again in any given day.
(01:51):
Because I think thinking somethingthat may or may not be true,
and then running your life based onthat could be devastating.
So what are your thoughts on that?
Oh my gosh.
Well, as an executive coach.
So it shows upmost in my executive coaching practice
because it shows up in two ways.
(02:13):
The first is how I talk to myself and
things I say to myself, hello,inner critic.
So it shows up that wayand then it shows up externally, right?
So from a workplace perspective,you come into a meeting
and I see your eyes roll or something, oryou don't show up to the meeting at all.
(02:35):
And I automatically make some assumptionsbased on that.
And now it's true.
But I haven't validated it whatsoever.
And so acting upon those,
beliefs or let's call
it untested on validated assumptions
can be a great cause for leaders,I think even personally, right,
(02:59):
with your thinking about the assumptionswe might make about ourselves.
And so the act of reflectingand looking at those and testing
and validating them and not treatingassumptions as facts is like this.
I call it like an evergreen
issue that a lot of leaders deal with.
(03:20):
And, the ability to recognize thatand maybe choose differently,
that's kind of a big part of the workthat I do.
Well, and I think we're so busy in the in
the executive mode in any mode,everybody is running, running, running.
So when something comes up,I think it's easier
and fasterjust to assume something than actually
(03:43):
to run something downand see whether or not it's valid.
And our brains like that,like our brains like
to create certaintyeven when certainty doesn't exist.
And unfortunately, our pesky brainshave this negativity
bias also where rooted in our survival.
Right?
But now create sometimes
at work miscommunication and misalignment.
(04:06):
Mistrust creates a lot of.
And I call it, thetrio of unfortunate misses,
those misses, but,
they can create a lot of damage.
And so that's been.
Yeah, a big part of the work isand particularly going back to the notion
of like how I talk to myself just becauseI think it doesn't make it true.
(04:29):
Right.
Oh I can't do this or I'm not good enoughor should is a really big word.
Hey, at least I'll speak for myself.I use.
Yeah, yeah.
And I joke, right, that like, I'm shootingall over myself because it's just,
And so how can I test or validatethat to know that it's true.
And that's I'm sure we'll talk about that.
(04:49):
That's kind of the work.
Absolutely.
And here we aretalking about making maverick moves.
You have a maverick move that we're goingto talk about in a little while.
But I think this type of behaviorthat everyone
does, I don't think I've ever metanybody who really takes the time.
Well, maybe I wasn't paying attentionif I did meet those people,
but that takes the time to really evaluate
(05:13):
and and that you have to balance right?
You know,because you have your priorities,
you have to get stuff done right away.
But then when something happensthat can derail you completely
from making that maverick move
or getting to the point where you're ableto make that Maverick move.
So you and I have talked about this,and you were talking to me
about something about a strategic pause.
(05:35):
Yes. That we I mean,
in my when I was working in my,
let's call it normal job, right?
This is the thing I craved and I couldn'tfind.
Couldn't see sometimes just the day to dayand the grind and the meeting
after meetingand not having time just to think
(05:58):
and reflect or having
to use my weekends for that timeand then being resentful for that reason.
And so now, in the role that I have now,
where I'm brought in to help leaderscreate their own strategic pauses,
how and and it's,
there's this awesome quote by ViktorFrankl, if you don't know him, read
(06:23):
about him.
He's an extraordinary,you know, human Holocaust survivor.
And so this quote is just
chef's kiss.
So I'll say it, which he says
between stimulusand response there is space.
In that space
is our power to choose our response.
(06:43):
And in that response liesour growth and our freedom.
And the minuteI read that it just like hit me
right in the heartbecause that is the work.
It's chasing that pause, chasingthat space to make a different choice.
And when you're talkingabout making a maverick move
and needing to pause and reflect,and even if it's,
(07:08):
I am so afraid right now, I am so scared
I'm going to feel itand I'm going to do it anyway, you know?
Right.
That kind of pause.
But so that'sthe essence of a strategic pause.
And so the work is sometimesfrom an executive coaching perspective,
you need someone
who's not in the day to daythat can help you kind of like pull up,
to be able
to see,you know, kind of your 10,000ft level.
(07:32):
Most importantly, though, I thinkand from a leadership perspective,
is that pause to choose your own response,to choose something different.
And so, for example, I have a leader
I was working with and he was tryingto change his relationship with conflict.
He was
let's call it a conflict averse.
(07:54):
And so the work
that we did was chasing that pause,
chasing that moment of like, oh,what's happening for me in this moment?
What am I feeling? Where is it in my body.
What he actually like had a notepadand he would start to write down and
and then the pause was like looking like,what are the themes showing up here?
(08:16):
Are there common things that I am?
Oh, now I can see it'sall about trying to increase line of sight
so I can see myselfor my team or my environment more clearly.
That's what the pause gives is,I think, a greater line of sight,
which when you have greater visibility,
you have more choices,you have more options versus
(08:37):
if you don't pause, it's your default.
Your unconscious is doingthe driving right,
and that is not an effective placefor a leader to operate.
Oh, sure.
And if you're a suspicious personor if you have trust issues
or whatever that characteristic is,that is a flaw within you,
that's the placeyou're automatically going to go.
(09:00):
And that's kind of dangerous,especially when you're at a high level
and you're making decisions.
Oh my gosh, it'sdangerous is a great word.
A fantastic word.
Yeah.
Because how many times havewe had to dial things back.
Because we reacted in one way becausewe didn't take that strategic pause.
And then now all of a suddenwe're left with a mess
that we're goingto have to dig our way out of.
(09:21):
Sometimes it's like three steps forward,five steps back.
Right.There's repair that I might have to do.
I may have to go and say,I'm sorry, right?
Or something like that, or worse,right, depending on what it is.
So yeah,
that's I think the greatestlike maverick move
any leader can do is just amp uptheir own self-awareness.
(09:42):
Like really crucially amp it up.
And there's lots of ways to do that.
And one size does not fit all,but amp that up.
What am I doing? Why am I doing that?
What's triggering me
having the clear line of sight there.
Oh, and now I can choose differently.
And that's that's the work. Yeah.
(10:02):
And maybe the first time you do it,
it might take you a few minutesor an hour or a day or a month.
Yeah.
But the more you practice itthen it becomes second hand.
So I have my law enforcement background,you know, about that.
And when we're doing an investigation,we look for the evidence.
And I was working with someone one time,and they brought something to me,
(10:25):
or I brought something to them.
I forgot how the conversation started,but okay, it didn't sound right.
So it's like, okay, so what's the evidencethat's leading you to believe this?
And really, when you're in that situation,you think to yourself,
Well there is no evidence.
Maybe I did make that assumptionwithout any evidence.
(10:46):
So that's where we really needto think about things.
Because sometimeswe're getting in our own way because we're
making assumptions based on zero evidence.
That's right.
Yes. So I haveI just wrote about this actually
in one of my occasional,I call my occasional musings,
when the occasion strikesand there's a topic that's near
and dear, I'll write about it.
(11:06):
And so this particular last one I wrotearound this idea, I called it a b v.
So it was inspired by, you know, there'sthe ABC, which is like always be closing.
I guess if you're a salesperson.
I worked with thisamazing artist named Sam, Sam Wise today.
And he would havehis was ABC always be creating.
(11:28):
And so that's the inspo.
So it's always be validating.
That's the mantra for I think any leader.
And again this applies to thingsI think or assume about myself and others.
And so the antidote I think
around this, number oneis that pause the pause and reflect.
(11:49):
What am I here?
How do I know it's true?
Just to ask yourself that
second is really lean into curiosity.
Instead of judgment,instead of fear, lean into curiosity.
How do I know that's true?
How might I puts the burden of proof here.
Right.
(12:10):
To assess the situation
three ask then who can I ask.
Who in my trusted resourcescan I ask ideally the person directly?
Thank you.
If it's, you know, betweenyou and another person,
and then fourth is allies.
Like, are there other allieswhere I can get a different perspective
that can help me establishthis kind of burden of proof?
(12:32):
And so between those things,I think those are great tools
to use to ensure.
But that pause is the isthe thing is to like huddle.
That's the quick question to ask yourself.
How do I know this is true.
And sometimes while you're evaluating,while you're investigating, you'll find
that if you and I have a dispute oversomething that you're right and I'm right.
(12:58):
Oh right. Yes.
It's so important.
I'm so glad you brought that up.
I like this ideaof like spectral thinking, right.
That there's a spectrum of ideas and thattwo things can be true at the same time.
And to accept that and that sometimesI think in this day and age,
there's a lot of either or.
I love. And,
(13:21):
It's not or
it's and, and this could also be true.
So I think that's another toolin any great leaders toolbox
is like embracing the spectral thinkingthat a lot of options could be true.
Maybe there's a whole,
spectral a spectrum of solutions
or ideas or things that are,
(13:43):
a part of whatever decision you're making,
but also being able and comfortableholding that both things are true.
That's a really hard thing to do,particularly,
I think, for a lot of leadersI work with when there's like two really
critical valuesthat are equally important.
So, for example,I was working with a leader that,
they were having to deliver a product.
(14:05):
Right?
So high quality, get it outthe door, really important value.
And I want a higherbut I want diverse hiring.
I want to, try and get as many different,you know,
candidates and people inside thisorganization that'll make us stronger.
Both correct, deliver and hire.
(14:26):
And then when those two things,
you know, hit each other,
that's the that that again,is like the pause of like, okay,
if both things are correct,both things are right now, going back on
probably thingsyou've talked about with others,
which is
what are my values,what are the things there
that I can fall back onwhen I'm dealing with two?
Right, right, right,and an obvious right and wrong.
(14:49):
Sure. Yeah.
And at that moment, you really have to putyour big point big boy pants on, right?
Because those are the momentsthat are not easy.
And I think a lot of usreally need to look at that.
I mean, it's a lot it's really easyto just take one side or the other.
And I think I have either been blessedor cursed with being able.
Being able to see both sides ofthe argument is powerful,
(15:13):
but again,I tend to lean towards one side,
but being able to see that other side,it really
is some interesting self-reflectionbecause I'm like, okay, well,
maybe I shouldn't have done that,or maybe I could have done this better.
But that's whatwe need to be asking ourselves.
That's right.When we're searching for the evidence.
(15:33):
That's right.
That's absolutely right.
Said it perfectly good.
So when we talk aboutthe internal, struggles that we have
with regard to the assumptions,because that's probably,
I mean, externally it's it's tricky
because everybody sees it,but then internally it's, it's
something that we're holding with usthat could really, really slow us down.
(15:57):
And, and really, really derail us.
So how do we deal with that?
You know, how do we figure out thoseassumptions for ourselves internally?
Oh my gosh, I wish I had like a magic.
Here's the three thingsthat might help you do that.
It's different for everybody.
So what kinds of things helpI think recognizing,
(16:20):
so I don't know if it's useful.
I mean,I can certainly share a personal story.
So I'm noticing even my arm.So this is a reflection.
Even in the moment,
I don't see my arms crossedbecause it's like I'm about to share
something really kind of personal.
If you give me one,I give you one. Okay? Okay.
Thank you.
So I have a fairly active inner critic,
(16:42):
that is constantly with me.
I actually gave her a nameI read or heard on a podcast.
Somebody do that? And I thought,oh, that's interesting.
Maybe if I abstract this, like, voiceand the her favorite word is
should I should be doing this,I should be doing that.
And it's kind of allrooted in like being enough.
(17:03):
And so knowing
that right that self-awareness of that'sthat's what drives me anyway.
So I gave her name, I named her Gretchen.
I love that name right now.
She's like,how dare you even talk about me.
But, and it's because I didn't.
It just sounded like a good mongrelname, and I didn't know any Gretchen,
(17:24):
so apologies if there's any GretchenI know one Gretchen.
Very nice.
This isn't about you, Gretchen.Yes. Sorry.
And so.
But that gave me.
And also, I'll give you another greatresource for this kind of like self-talk,
which is not mine,but there is a book called
Positive Intelligence by Shirzad.
(17:44):
And now I'm going to murder his last name.
So I'm just gonna say charade positiveintelligence is the name of the book.
His website has a free assessment
you can take,which is called Saboteur Assessment.
And his website.
The first thing you would seewhen you go on it is
your mind is your greatest friend
and your greatest enemy or somethingkind of like that.
(18:06):
And the the saboteur islook at what is underneath.
So what's the driving,
self-talk that might be happening?
That is influencing kind of maybeevery decision or everything that you go.
So for example,there's hyper achiever, right?
So if I don't have external achievementthen there's a stickler there's a pleaser.
(18:30):
There's like all these kinds of things.It's really interesting.
And if you're at all wanta little strategic pause for yourself,
go to that website,take the saboteur and then ask yourself,
how do thesehow do my saboteurs show up at work?
How do they show up in my leadership?
So another like freebie tool there.
Where was I?
You're you're telling us a secret storythat you were.
(18:52):
Oh, yeah.
Okay. So. Gretchen. Okay. Yeah.
Sorry.
So, so positive intelligence.
The book has a lot of toolsin which to, like, essentially,
how do I stay present in the moment?
Because once I'm up here
and I'm listeningto what's up here, or you're in a meeting
and you're thinking like, oh,
I should have said this,or I shouldn't say that,
now you're not really presentand listening to what's happening.
(19:13):
So a lot of the work in the book is like,how do I stay present
and how do I kind of,
manage that voice?
And so in my case, for Gretchen, there wasthis is like an evergreen thing for me.
She is she's always with me. Yeah.
And I,
for a long time
was very focusedon telling her to be quiet.
(19:36):
Shut up.
I would say, like, shutup, Gretchen, I'm got this.
I'm fine. Right.
And so somewhat helpful in the beginning,
what that morphed into
was I actually have to love her.
I have to love her like she's.
She's this out of things that were bornwhen I was young trying to serve me.
(19:58):
That word was important at the time.
Maybe some needs weren't met. Right.
And so she served a purpose there.
And now, as I'm evolving as a group,
those same patterns of behavior like thattake no energy for me to do.
Those ingrained patterns of behavioraren't serving me anymore.
The shoulds aren't serving me.
And so for me,it was a way to identify her.
(20:21):
So now I'm like, oh, Gretchen,I know you love me.
I know you're trying toprotect me, but I got this.
I'm going to do this.
So that was maybe a long, convolutedlike story about it, but it can be.
That's even just one trick to do.
I have a client that calls his,
you know, his inner voice.
(20:42):
He was in the military, so he'llhe'll say, sergeant, and then, what?
His last name,which I won't say here is like Sergeant.
And so because that particular inner voiceis very, like exact in
and very and it's causing him
more internal harm than good right nowand that's something he wants to get over.
(21:03):
So we're kind of playing around with thatI love it
I love it because comingfrom a military background, I get it.
When you start using the rank
with somebody, then thatit puts it to a whole nother level.
Yes, but I know what you mean.
With my public speaking,that's always been a weakness for me.
And it had I had given a presentation
(21:26):
when I was in the Army and I wasI got nervous,
I couldn't speak, I melted downand that was like at that would.
And so from then on, my inner critic,you know, kind of went to the place of,
well, you know, people don't want to hear
what you know, you don't have anythingto say that people don't already know.
(21:46):
So that was something that stuck with mefrom that incident.
And so I never wanted to do publicspeaking again.
So when I did this TEDx talk,and for those people who know me,
let me tell you,
it was the first timethat I really connected with the audience
because the audience in Manteca,what a beautiful community that they are.
(22:10):
And I couldn't see them because the lightswere so bright, but I could feel them.
And that was like the first timewhere I really put
that inner voice to restwhen it came to the public speaking point.
So I think it really is a journeyto get to that place.
I don't think you can just turn it offright away,
but it's something that you need to workon, you know?
(22:32):
And I think there's a piece of it too
that is,
courage over comfort.
Like.
Oh, okay.
I have this other,
saying that sometimes I use of, like,resistance equals curiosity.
So, like, when I feel myself wantingto say no, when I feel myself retreating.
(22:57):
Okay, what what does that mean?
And then there's the muscle building
of feeling the fear and doing it anyway,
like I'm so scared, right now,and I'm going to go anyway.
And I feel like it's like at the gym,
you know,when you're starting to lift weights
the first or ten timesyou do it, you're like shaking, right?
As you're trying to lift.
(23:17):
But eventually more times you get stronger
and eventuallyyou're ready for more weight.
I love that you brought up courage.
I had the courage expertSandra Fold was then on my show
and she made a comment
that children don't hearabout courage anymore.
I mean, it's not really somethingthat is brought up.
(23:40):
So what what?
When you talk about courage,why is that important to you?
Because you youyou talk about courage a lot.
And I've known you for a while.And we talk about courage.
So what does that mean to you?
Well, I mean, it is one of the big thingsthat drew me to wanting to help support
the Girl
Scouts, who because a lot of their workis all about trying to build courage
and confidence in young girls and women.
(24:01):
I think because it's so that vital to me.
Well,I, I in a lot of my work in the past,
I've seen the dark side of leadersprioritizing their own comfort
over,
I guess courage could be a rightword, right?
So whether that's I'm not going to givethis employee feedback that they need
(24:24):
because I don't want them to be upsetor it makes me uncomfortable.
So I'm choosing my maybe notconsciously, but,
you know, there's that idea, you know,that which we cannot see drives us.
You can't change what you can't see.
It's like a young in, quote.
And so the courage piece
is not the,you've probably heard from your courage.
(24:46):
It's not the absence of fear.
It's feeling the discomfort and
and enduring the discomfort that comes
with doing something different or new,whether that's trying
something new, like a Ted talk,which is amazing, by the way.
Thank you.You're going to do it should be so that,
(25:07):
or havingthat conversation or I'm in the board room
and I have a point of viewand I'm afraid to say it.
And it's, it's enduring that discomfortand that only comes
and maybe the experimentscan be really small at first.
It doesn't have to bethis big like Ted is amazing.
(25:27):
But for others maybe there's a little bitof building the muscle.
And so whatever those little microcourage moments look like
could be sharing a storyon a podcast about Gretchen.
It could be, just telling youhow I'm afraid or I'm scared, right?
Like, there's.
So that's a big spectrum of ideas,but the idea of
(25:49):
just feeling it and not letting that fear
or discomfort make the decision for you.
Choosing
voting for who you want to be.
Right.
And I also think there's some for me
there is some connection between courage
particularlywhen it comes to like yourself or whatever
(26:10):
shifts you want to make that enduringthat discomfort.
There's something about it.
This is going to sound super corny.
It's like an act of self-love.
Because I'm choosingwho I want to be in that moment.
Maybe I'm not there yet,but I'm I'm doing little baby steps,
and then my brain goes to,
(26:32):
that physics, principle, right?
Things at rest tend to stay at rest.
Things in motion tend to stay in motion.
But the amount of energy
it takes to get somethingfrom rest to motion is extraordinary.
But once it's moving.
And so it's like, that's the journey,I think for all of us.
If I've been at rest with,I don't know, my relationship
with conflict or something elsethat I'm trying to improve for myself.
(26:55):
And so it's like little baby microand just let the momentum
keep going and feel good.
When you've done that small little thing
I was hard.
So there's something there.
Yeah.
I like to encourage people to play withbecause you did it.
So this leads us into your Maverick.
(27:16):
Oh yeah.
So tell us about the baby steps, the MicroMaverick moves that you had to make
in order to start your own business.
Leave what you left.
I'm going to let you tell the story.
But that was a pretty massivemaverick move.
Thank you.
At the time,you know, maybe like other Maverick moves,
it didn't feel like it at the time, right?
(27:38):
It felt like full of fear and dread.
But, so I had, a very long relationshipwith the last company I worked with.
It was Blizzard Entertainment. They were,
I just thought I would never leave.
It was just full of tremendous
creative, smart humans,and I loved being a part of it.
And that is a massive company. Well, it's,
(28:01):
World of Warcraft,
Overwatch, Diablo, Hearthstone, StarCraftlot of fun,
amazing experiences that they are creatingfor for the world. Me
and so I think that leads to one thingabout
so my maverick move was
leaving honestly.
(28:23):
My identity,all of my identity was wrapped.
Who am I if I am not a working at BlizzardB with this title.
So and I now in my coaching work
I realize how strongly identitycan keep people in place.
Because I can'tI can't lose what that was.
It's, it's likeit was like a part of my arm. Right.
(28:45):
So leaving almost felt like an amputation.
Self-inflicted imitation anyway.
But there was this call,
this, like, longing that I had.
And, I was talking to, a coach about this,
and he was chuckling as I was telling him,like, by the way, from the time I,
(29:06):
the idea
of, like, could I start my own thing towhen I actually left was like a year.
So there's a long process of like, good,I will I I'm so scared what will happen.
All of that stuff, you know, imagine that.
I'll just I don't want people to thinklike it was really quick.
And he was chuckling as I was
telling him these ideasof what I wanted to explore and try.
(29:29):
And he said, well, I it feels like you'redesigning the rest of your life.
And I was like, oh, that felt so good.
Like I was like,oh, I love how that like I'm creating.
Right. Instead of
edit, you knowthere is an editing process to it all to.
Right. What do I want to keep.
What still serves me.
What maybe do I need to let go of.
(29:50):
So anyway, my maverick move was startingmy own company leadership enthusiast
is the name of it.
It's a little boutique, consultingleadership development practice.
I do executive coaching.
I do work with teams,
and I do like training and facilitationon the topics of leadership.
And it is it sets my soul on fire.
(30:12):
It sets my soul on fire.
And every dayI feel very lucky that I got to that.
I made that call.
But make no mistake, and was not without,
fear discomfort.
Right?
I mean, at some point I think I just said,well, what's the worst that will happen?
I will fail, I will colossally flail, and
(30:35):
I guessI'll just go get a regular job again.
So once you know, there's a little bitof self-talk in that too, right?
How can I frame this to make it easierto step out
over the unknown and experiment?
Or try?
Do you remember specific momentsalong the way where you were building
those muscles?
(30:57):
What was some, couple of good moments?
Yeah, I
mean, I want to say like, almost every day
was because, you know,I went from, let's call it,
if I'll use an analogy,I went from a job and a role
where every day was a sprint,full, flat out sprint.
(31:18):
Meaning, when I got home, I dropped,
and then I had to get upand do it all over again.
And so when you go from sprinting to
no movement, you know,
like the quiet is very loud.
And so and telling myself,
(31:42):
I had this like prompt that I did,
and it was and sometimes
I use it with clients now,but I like to write.
So that's my method of liketrying to like clarify my thoughts.
But the prompt was,
I used to be dot, dot dot,
but now I am dot dot dot.
And I used to bewas like my current state.
(32:05):
Tired, exhausted.
Not really doing the thingsthat, like, fill
my cup and make me feel like
I'm making the kind of differencethat I want to make.
And then but now I am.
And then it was filled.
And the idea of the prompt is you getreally specific, you know, where am I?
What am I doing?
(32:25):
And so over time, there was like,I remember I started that prompt
and then like, would come back to itevery other week and add more things
until I had this very clear view of where
I wanted to be and find myselfand that I am.
There's some somethingempowering about that that I chose this.
(32:47):
I'm making these decisions,and that's like the things
emotions tend to stay in motion.
Like that kept the momentum going.
But still a journey.
I'm four years inand I don't have it all figured out, but,
that's part of the beauty I think
is proceeding anyway.
(33:08):
And with curiosity.
Proceeding with curiosity is.
And, Yeah,that's that's where I'm at today.
So if I were Gretchen looking at youfrom this side. Yes.
What what would I have learned?
But what I've learned.
What was the biggest lessonthat you learned?
I guess still learning.
(33:32):
The sounds so crazy,
but there's a little bit of, like,I am worthy
and not just saying that words,
but, like, feeling it internally.
You know, that inner critic that she would
often,Gretchen would often say the opposite.
And so and that these little microwhen I would call them of
(33:55):
no, no,no that's okay I got this and not, not
not making decisions based on those fears.
So every time I made a decisionlike doing a podcast.
That every cell in my body
was like no, why would I do that.
And that's just very vulnerableand no thank you.
(34:18):
And then choosing to do itanyway, like that's
the biggest lesson is
continual belief
in what I am capable of doing.
And kind of going back to, I guess, Sammy.
Sam was this quote like ABC,like I am a creator now as well,
(34:39):
right? I am creating
experiences and creating,
a career and a body of work
that I'm immensely proud of
and what I'm putting out into the world.
And that's another thing,like a Gretchen thing, right?
Like, can I put it out in the worldbecause I believe in it and it feels good.
(35:02):
And, and,
there's a distinction between that.
That's the measure of success versushow many likes
or how many people are watching, like,Gretchen lives in that space.
Because what other people think rightis, is what creates your worth.
And I want to live in the,
like, internally driven world.
(35:25):
I love that, I love that, but
when you make those decisions to do itanyway.
Yeah, I think that'swhen you start building that momentum.
So when you decide instead of saying noand you say yes, yeah.
And then you go and do somethingthat you're not comfortable
in, and then you do it again and again.
Then it becomes easy and then you'restarting with bigger things.
(35:47):
So I think the momentyou feel uncomfortable
is when you need to start thinking that,hey, I'm on my way somewhere.
That's right.
Resistance equals curiosity.
Resistance equals growth.
All of that is so true.
Lean into it. Don't avoid it. Yeah.
And you said that seeing yourself clearlyis a bold move and it's not an easy move.
(36:11):
So how can people start seeing themselves
more clearly in order to be able to havethe confidence to make these moves.
Yeah.
So from a leadership perspective,
that is the greatest giftyou can give yourself is to amplify
your own self-awareness,the ability for you to.
And if you can't do it on your own,get folks around you that can help
(36:33):
you see yourself, how you're showing up,your actions, your behaviors.
A lot of leaderssometimes tend to measure their success
based on their intentions,and no one can see those.
And so sometimes intentions and behaviordon't match.
And so I think there is
finding the strategic pausefinding reflection
(36:54):
moments, identifying when this doesn't.
Againall of this is rooted in what do I want.
As a leaderI want to do this or I want to do this.
And then
based on whatever those goals are right,
then you're chasing reflection moments.
They're pausing and saying like, why?
Why am I hesitating here?
(37:14):
Why didn't I say somethingin that last meeting, what was there?
And really starting to unpack and explorewhat's underneath all of that?
Because that's trying to
that is
elevating the unseen and making it seen.
And only thencan you do something with it.
(37:35):
So it sounds like, I wish I could give youa like a one, two, three.
Here'show you amplify your self-awareness.
There's so many different ways for fordifferent people, but that is the thing.
ChooseI guess the choice. Make the choice.
That's where it starts.
Make the choice to prioritize.
Where am I here?
What's going on for me?
(37:56):
What's triggering me?
Make those choices two strategic pauseand think about it.
Or create space in your calendarto do that.
Ten minutesafter that meeting, five minutes.
Scribble down some notes. Right.
It's making that choice.
And even in making that choiceis starting to go from rest to motion.
(38:18):
And you talked about identity.
That kind of resonated with me
because when you're in law enforcementand you leave, I mean carrying
a badge and a gunand having that authority
to leave that behind, I think menhave more problems with it than women do.
But still, I mean, I think but you'rereally kind of holding on to the past
(38:40):
because when you like, you'retalking about starting something
where your soul is on fire,that's out there for everybody.
It's just a matter of committingto yourself,
valuing yourself enough to be ableto make that step in that direction.
And you're right, it's hard.
It's not an easy process,but the glory and the
(39:01):
you know, the sunshine is shiningonce you get to the other side.
But all of those lessons that you learn,
that's that'sprobably the best part of it.
I mean, the journey that I mean,the richness is in the journey.
And hopefully the destination is good.
But I think it's all about the journey.
Yep I agree.
(39:22):
Well I don't want to
let you go before we talk about the GirlScouts of Orange County okay.
We went to oh my goodness.
So I have my bracelet on.
We went to an event last weekcalled the voice for girls,
and they had this wonderful woman.
She was an astronaut.
Her name was Emily, was her last name.
Oh, I know, sorry, Emily,I know we love you, Emily.
(39:45):
She is the female BillNye the science guy.
The space girl on Instagram.I started following her.
Oh. You did? Yeah.
Oh, she's amazing.
She was sharp.
The 100th woman in space.
Yeah.
And you know, what I loved about heris that, you know, she gets up on stage,
and, of course,a girl Scout, gold girl interviews her.
(40:05):
And I was so proud.
That gets me every time.
But here we have this, you know, the womenin space thing that has been going on
and people are talking negatively about,you know, the value of that.
And yet here comesthis actual female astronaut
who, you know, and obviously,these female astronauts are counting
(40:27):
how many women came before thembecause she was the 100th woman in space.
And she knew that, but the waythat she talked about it, she said that
it's good because peopleare talking about women going into space.
So, you know, I was just really impressedwith how gracious she was about that.
And, and then she showed a video of her
(40:47):
going into space, and I'mgetting goosebumps just thinking about it.
There was so much joy.
And she was so thrilled,you know, watching her in space,
it was just really great.
So what, what?
The women who are coming behind you,
all of these young women who are goingand I think I bought probably 25 boxes
(41:07):
or more of Girl Scout cookies this seasonbecause I cannot pass by a girl
who got the courage to ask it and say,Natalie, I know I'm buying 12 boxes.
Probably in courage. Exactly.
So what for all of the women
who are coming behind youand all of the great work
that you do, what inspires youto to really make a difference there?
Oh my gosh.
(41:31):
I, I want to
in the work that I do today,I want to help create
cultures and places of workthat we want those young girls
where those young girlsand women can thrive.
I want women
(41:51):
everywhere, regardless of age, to
choose courage over comfort.
Or fear.
Feeling the fear and doing it anyway.
And I so that's like the biggest piece of
of why I love helping the Girl Scouts.
Doing what they dois so much more than cookies in terms of
(42:15):
what that organizationis doing for young, for young women
and also the tribe element of it,you know, their interests and,
and building connectionwith another female.
And that we're here, like,lift her up right on your bracelet.
(42:35):
Like, I do not want to workor live in a world where women are,
you know, tearing each other down.
You know, space for it.
And so they are learning that we are herefor each other.
We're going to support each other.
And that's an inspiring,
and they're just incredible
(42:56):
dedicated,
you know, the gold Award winners.
I always joke about this,but it is every single time it happens,
I just think to myself, like, well,I am wholly unaccomplished.
I was I was 16,I was not doing any of that.
I was wrapped up in, you know, me,I know it.
(43:18):
And so the fact that these womenare taking chances and trying
to make the world a better placeis just a constant source of inspiration.
Absolutely.
So anyone that has a chance to supporta Girl Scout for the mission of Girl
Scoutsis putting their money in good places.
I agree they put four gold girlGirl Scouts on the stage,
(43:41):
and one young ladywas talking all about the financial
thingthat she created for all of these people,
and I was sitting at the tablenext to US Bank.
And so they were very interestedin listening to this young lady,
and then they asked herwhat she wanted to do when she graduated
from high school,and she said she wanted to be a doctor.
(44:03):
You should have heard the groaningthat was going on at the table next to me.
So, you know, at 16 and 15,at 14 years old,
these girls are having impact on all of usto inspire us to, to to do great things.
Yeah.
And also, I think what's always
fascinating to me isI was such a late bloomer.
(44:24):
I graduated collegeand I had no idea what I wanted to do.
Not a clue.
And I was just fascinated.
My sister, my younger sister,
who's one of the most amazing humansin the whole entire world.
Janine.
Anyway, she always was so crispon, like, I'm going to do this.
I'm going to be a therapist,I'm going to be all this.
(44:45):
And I just would look at her and be like,oh, what does that feel like?
I don't know.
And so that,you know, having that kind of conviction,
that's such a certain age comingfrom someone who eventually found it.
And in doing
and along that pathfound a lot of crappy jobs
(45:06):
and not things that,you know, filled me up.
So and just that drive
that's just.
It's amazing.
Yeah. So bring it all.
And this is one thing that I love aboutyou is because you you are an artist.
You are creativeand you brought this poem to my attention.
(45:28):
And I want you to share some of itto really help
kind of solidifythe conversation that we had today.
It's by John O'Donohue.
As I can read the whole thing,
you can read probably the firstand the last paragraphs first and last.
Yes. I was sitting on my glasses.
Yes, I need to see.
(45:48):
All right.
So for those who would likethe whole poem, it's by John O'Donohue.
It's called A poem for a New Beginning.
And I brought this to Ginabecause it's, just calls to me
when I was in the midstof figuring out my maverick.
Move it.
It's, was kindling oak like a spark.
(46:09):
Read the whole poem. Oh, okay.
Go ahead then.
Can I sell it now? Yeah.
You did, you did, you did. Okay.
Okay. In the out a wave.
Out of the way.
Places of the heartwhere your thoughts never think to wander.
This beginning has been quietly forming.
Waiting until you are ready to emerge.
(46:30):
For a long timeit has watched your desire.
Feeling the emptiness growing inside you.
Noticing how you willed yourself on it,still unable to leave.
You had outgrown it.
Watchedyou play with the seduction of safety
and the gray promises that samenesswhispered.
Heard the waves of turmoil riseand relent.
(46:52):
Wondered would you always live like this?
Then thedelight when your courage kindled and out.
You stepped onto new ground.
Your eyes young againwith energy and dream.
A path of plenitude opening before you.
Though your destination is not yet clear,
you can trust the promise of this opening.
(47:14):
Unfurl yourselfinto the grace of beginning
this is at one with your life's desire.
Awaken your spirit of adventure.
Hold nothing back.
Learn to find ease and risk.
Soon you will be at home in a new rhythmfor your soul.
Senses of the world that awaits you.
Yes. Chills. Yes.
(47:37):
Chill. All right.
Thank you for letting me read that. Yes.
So we're all going to go out and do thatright now.
Yes. That's your that's your spark.
Go chase it.
Thank you for being on the show.Thank you.
It's a pleasure.
Making Maverick moves with Gina Osborne
is produced and edited by Zille Media.
Connect with us on social media at Gina L
(47:58):
osborne.com/making maverick moves.
Don't miss an episode.
Subscribe to making Maverick Moveswherever you get your podcasts.
With two decades at powerhousebrands like Blizzard and Kawasaki.
(00:04):
Julie Farr Banach knows what it takesto lead at the highest level.
But in 2021,she made her boldest maverick move yet.
Founding leadershipenthusiasts to help others do the same.
Julie believes great leadership startswith knowing yourself,
and that means challengingwhat you think you know.
(00:24):
Today, she's here to show ushow deeper self-awareness
and courageous leadershipreally comes to life.
Let's dive in to making maverick moves.
My name is Gina Osborneand I'm an Army veteran.
I spent six years during the end of theCold War as a counter intelligence agent.
I was appointed as an FBI agent,and during my 22 year career,
(00:48):
worked everythingfrom Asian organized crime to terrorism.
I became the assistant special agentin charge of cyber and computer forensics.
And then I came out of retirementand spent two years
as the safety and security officerat la metro.
Now I'm here to helpyou make your maverick move.
(01:08):
Welcome to the show, Julie.
Thank you.
I've got my Girl Scout bracelet on.
It says lift her up.
That makes me feel good.
We know each other
because we are both on the boardof directors for the Girl Scouts.
And you still are.
I still am, Erin.
Yes. Very good. I knew I loved you.
We were kindred spirits.
(01:29):
We are. Absolutely.
We look like we're sisters.
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's the compliment.
Well, there's one thing that really amazes
me and the reasonwhy I wanted to have you on the show.
So just because you thinkit doesn't make it true, that is something
that everyone should think about in thereand again in any given day.
(01:51):
Because I think thinking somethingthat may or may not be true,
and then running your life based onthat could be devastating.
So what are your thoughts on that?
Oh my gosh.
Well, as an executive coach.
So it shows upmost in my executive coaching practice
because it shows up in two ways.
(02:13):
The first is how I talk to myself and
things I say to myself, hello,inner critic.
So it shows up that wayand then it shows up externally, right?
So from a workplace perspective,you come into a meeting
and I see your eyes roll or something, oryou don't show up to the meeting at all.
(02:35):
And I automatically make some assumptionsbased on that.
And now it's true.
But I haven't validated it whatsoever.
And so acting upon those,
beliefs or let's call
it untested on validated assumptions
can be a great cause for leaders,I think even personally, right,
(02:59):
with your thinking about the assumptionswe might make about ourselves.
And so the act of reflectingand looking at those and testing
and validating them and not treatingassumptions as facts is like this.
I call it like an evergreen
issue that a lot of leaders deal with.
(03:20):
And, the ability to recognize thatand maybe choose differently,
that's kind of a big part of the workthat I do.
Well, and I think we're so busy in the in
the executive mode in any mode,everybody is running, running, running.
So when something comes up,I think it's easier
and fasterjust to assume something than actually
(03:43):
to run something downand see whether or not it's valid.
And our brains like that,like our brains like
to create certaintyeven when certainty doesn't exist.
And unfortunately, our pesky brainshave this negativity
bias also where rooted in our survival.
Right?
But now create sometimes
at work miscommunication and misalignment.
(04:06):
Mistrust creates a lot of.
And I call it, thetrio of unfortunate misses,
those misses, but,
they can create a lot of damage.
And so that's been.
Yeah, a big part of the work isand particularly going back to the notion
of like how I talk to myself just becauseI think it doesn't make it true.
(04:29):
Right.
Oh I can't do this or I'm not good enoughor should is a really big word.
Hey, at least I'll speak for myself.I use.
Yeah, yeah.
And I joke, right, that like, I'm shootingall over myself because it's just,
And so how can I test or validatethat to know that it's true.
And that's I'm sure we'll talk about that.
(04:49):
That's kind of the work.
Absolutely.
And here we aretalking about making maverick moves.
You have a maverick move that we're goingto talk about in a little while.
But I think this type of behaviorthat everyone
does, I don't think I've ever metanybody who really takes the time.
Well, maybe I wasn't paying attentionif I did meet those people,
but that takes the time to really evaluate
(05:13):
and and that you have to balance right?
You know,because you have your priorities,
you have to get stuff done right away.
But then when something happensthat can derail you completely
from making that maverick move
or getting to the point where you're ableto make that Maverick move.
So you and I have talked about this,and you were talking to me
about something about a strategic pause.
(05:35):
Yes. That we I mean,
in my when I was working in my,
let's call it normal job, right?
This is the thing I craved and I couldn'tfind.
Couldn't see sometimes just the day to dayand the grind and the meeting
after meetingand not having time just to think
(05:58):
and reflect or having
to use my weekends for that timeand then being resentful for that reason.
And so now, in the role that I have now,
where I'm brought in to help leaderscreate their own strategic pauses,
how and and it's,
there's this awesome quote by ViktorFrankl, if you don't know him, read
(06:23):
about him.
He's an extraordinary,you know, human Holocaust survivor.
And so this quote is just
chef's kiss.
So I'll say it, which he says
between stimulusand response there is space.
In that space
is our power to choose our response.
(06:43):
And in that response liesour growth and our freedom.
And the minuteI read that it just like hit me
right in the heartbecause that is the work.
It's chasing that pause, chasingthat space to make a different choice.
And when you're talkingabout making a maverick move
and needing to pause and reflect,and even if it's,
(07:08):
I am so afraid right now, I am so scared
I'm going to feel itand I'm going to do it anyway, you know?
Right.
That kind of pause.
But so that'sthe essence of a strategic pause.
And so the work is sometimesfrom an executive coaching perspective,
you need someone
who's not in the day to daythat can help you kind of like pull up,
to be able
to see,you know, kind of your 10,000ft level.
(07:32):
Most importantly, though, I thinkand from a leadership perspective,
is that pause to choose your own response,to choose something different.
And so, for example, I have a leader
I was working with and he was tryingto change his relationship with conflict.
He was
let's call it a conflict averse.
(07:54):
And so the work
that we did was chasing that pause,
chasing that moment of like, oh,what's happening for me in this moment?
What am I feeling? Where is it in my body.
What he actually like had a notepadand he would start to write down and
and then the pause was like looking like,what are the themes showing up here?
(08:16):
Are there common things that I am?
Oh, now I can see it'sall about trying to increase line of sight
so I can see myselfor my team or my environment more clearly.
That's what the pause gives is,I think, a greater line of sight,
which when you have greater visibility,
you have more choices,you have more options versus
(08:37):
if you don't pause, it's your default.
Your unconscious is doingthe driving right,
and that is not an effective placefor a leader to operate.
Oh, sure.
And if you're a suspicious personor if you have trust issues
or whatever that characteristic is,that is a flaw within you,
that's the placeyou're automatically going to go.
(09:00):
And that's kind of dangerous,especially when you're at a high level
and you're making decisions.
Oh my gosh, it'sdangerous is a great word.
A fantastic word.
Yeah.
Because how many times havewe had to dial things back.
Because we reacted in one way becausewe didn't take that strategic pause.
And then now all of a suddenwe're left with a mess
that we're goingto have to dig our way out of.
(09:21):
Sometimes it's like three steps forward,five steps back.
Right.There's repair that I might have to do.
I may have to go and say,I'm sorry, right?
Or something like that, or worse,right, depending on what it is.
So yeah,
that's I think the greatestlike maverick move
any leader can do is just amp uptheir own self-awareness.
(09:42):
Like really crucially amp it up.
And there's lots of ways to do that.
And one size does not fit all,but amp that up.
What am I doing? Why am I doing that?
What's triggering me
having the clear line of sight there.
Oh, and now I can choose differently.
And that's that's the work. Yeah.
(10:02):
And maybe the first time you do it,
it might take you a few minutesor an hour or a day or a month.
Yeah.
But the more you practice itthen it becomes second hand.
So I have my law enforcement background,you know, about that.
And when we're doing an investigation,we look for the evidence.
And I was working with someone one time,and they brought something to me,
(10:25):
or I brought something to them.
I forgot how the conversation started,but okay, it didn't sound right.
So it's like, okay, so what's the evidencethat's leading you to believe this?
And really, when you're in that situation,you think to yourself,
Well there is no evidence.
Maybe I did make that assumptionwithout any evidence.
(10:46):
So that's where we really needto think about things.
Because sometimeswe're getting in our own way because we're
making assumptions based on zero evidence.
That's right.
Yes. So I haveI just wrote about this actually
in one of my occasional,I call my occasional musings,
when the occasion strikesand there's a topic that's near
and dear, I'll write about it.
(11:06):
And so this particular last one I wrotearound this idea, I called it a b v.
So it was inspired by, you know, there'sthe ABC, which is like always be closing.
I guess if you're a salesperson.
I worked with thisamazing artist named Sam, Sam Wise today.
And he would havehis was ABC always be creating.
(11:28):
And so that's the inspo.
So it's always be validating.
That's the mantra for I think any leader.
And again this applies to thingsI think or assume about myself and others.
And so the antidote I think
around this, number oneis that pause the pause and reflect.
(11:49):
What am I here?
How do I know it's true?
Just to ask yourself that
second is really lean into curiosity.
Instead of judgment,instead of fear, lean into curiosity.
How do I know that's true?
How might I puts the burden of proof here.
Right.
(12:10):
To assess the situation
three ask then who can I ask.
Who in my trusted resourcescan I ask ideally the person directly?
Thank you.
If it's, you know, betweenyou and another person,
and then fourth is allies.
Like, are there other allieswhere I can get a different perspective
that can help me establishthis kind of burden of proof?
(12:32):
And so between those things,I think those are great tools
to use to ensure.
But that pause is the isthe thing is to like huddle.
That's the quick question to ask yourself.
How do I know this is true.
And sometimes while you're evaluating,while you're investigating, you'll find
that if you and I have a dispute oversomething that you're right and I'm right.
(12:58):
Oh right. Yes.
It's so important.
I'm so glad you brought that up.
I like this ideaof like spectral thinking, right.
That there's a spectrum of ideas and thattwo things can be true at the same time.
And to accept that and that sometimesI think in this day and age,
there's a lot of either or.
I love. And,
(13:21):
It's not or
it's and, and this could also be true.
So I think that's another toolin any great leaders toolbox
is like embracing the spectral thinkingthat a lot of options could be true.
Maybe there's a whole,
spectral a spectrum of solutions
or ideas or things that are,
(13:43):
a part of whatever decision you're making,
but also being able and comfortableholding that both things are true.
That's a really hard thing to do,particularly,
I think, for a lot of leadersI work with when there's like two really
critical valuesthat are equally important.
So, for example,I was working with a leader that,
they were having to deliver a product.
(14:05):
Right?
So high quality, get it outthe door, really important value.
And I want a higherbut I want diverse hiring.
I want to, try and get as many different,you know,
candidates and people inside thisorganization that'll make us stronger.
Both correct, deliver and hire.
(14:26):
And then when those two things,
you know, hit each other,
that's the that that again,is like the pause of like, okay,
if both things are correct,both things are right now, going back on
probably thingsyou've talked about with others,
which is
what are my values,what are the things there
that I can fall back onwhen I'm dealing with two?
Right, right, right,and an obvious right and wrong.
(14:49):
Sure. Yeah.
And at that moment, you really have to putyour big point big boy pants on, right?
Because those are the momentsthat are not easy.
And I think a lot of usreally need to look at that.
I mean, it's a lot it's really easyto just take one side or the other.
And I think I have either been blessedor cursed with being able.
Being able to see both sides ofthe argument is powerful,
(15:13):
but again,I tend to lean towards one side,
but being able to see that other side,it really
is some interesting self-reflectionbecause I'm like, okay, well,
maybe I shouldn't have done that,or maybe I could have done this better.
But that's whatwe need to be asking ourselves.
That's right.When we're searching for the evidence.
(15:33):
That's right.
That's absolutely right.
Said it perfectly good.
So when we talk aboutthe internal, struggles that we have
with regard to the assumptions,because that's probably,
I mean, externally it's it's tricky
because everybody sees it,but then internally it's, it's
something that we're holding with usthat could really, really slow us down.
(15:57):
And, and really, really derail us.
So how do we deal with that?
You know, how do we figure out thoseassumptions for ourselves internally?
Oh my gosh, I wish I had like a magic.
Here's the three thingsthat might help you do that.
It's different for everybody.
So what kinds of things helpI think recognizing,
(16:20):
so I don't know if it's useful.
I mean,I can certainly share a personal story.
So I'm noticing even my arm.So this is a reflection.
Even in the moment,
I don't see my arms crossedbecause it's like I'm about to share
something really kind of personal.
If you give me one,I give you one. Okay? Okay.
Thank you.
So I have a fairly active inner critic,
(16:42):
that is constantly with me.
I actually gave her a nameI read or heard on a podcast.
Somebody do that? And I thought,oh, that's interesting.
Maybe if I abstract this, like, voiceand the her favorite word is
should I should be doing this,I should be doing that.
And it's kind of allrooted in like being enough.
(17:03):
And so knowing
that right that self-awareness of that'sthat's what drives me anyway.
So I gave her name, I named her Gretchen.
I love that name right now.
She's like,how dare you even talk about me.
But, and it's because I didn't.
It just sounded like a good mongrelname, and I didn't know any Gretchen,
(17:24):
so apologies if there's any GretchenI know one Gretchen.
Very nice.
This isn't about you, Gretchen.Yes. Sorry.
And so.
But that gave me.
And also, I'll give you another greatresource for this kind of like self-talk,
which is not mine,but there is a book called
Positive Intelligence by Shirzad.
(17:44):
And now I'm going to murder his last name.
So I'm just gonna say charade positiveintelligence is the name of the book.
His website has a free assessment
you can take,which is called Saboteur Assessment.
And his website.
The first thing you would seewhen you go on it is
your mind is your greatest friend
and your greatest enemy or somethingkind of like that.
(18:06):
And the the saboteur islook at what is underneath.
So what's the driving,
self-talk that might be happening?
That is influencing kind of maybeevery decision or everything that you go.
So for example,there's hyper achiever, right?
So if I don't have external achievementthen there's a stickler there's a pleaser.
(18:30):
There's like all these kinds of things.It's really interesting.
And if you're at all wanta little strategic pause for yourself,
go to that website,take the saboteur and then ask yourself,
how do thesehow do my saboteurs show up at work?
How do they show up in my leadership?
So another like freebie tool there.
Where was I?
You're you're telling us a secret storythat you were.
(18:52):
Oh, yeah.
Okay. So. Gretchen. Okay. Yeah.
Sorry.
So, so positive intelligence.
The book has a lot of toolsin which to, like, essentially,
how do I stay present in the moment?
Because once I'm up here
and I'm listeningto what's up here, or you're in a meeting
and you're thinking like, oh,
I should have said this,or I shouldn't say that,
now you're not really presentand listening to what's happening.
(19:13):
So a lot of the work in the book is like,how do I stay present
and how do I kind of,
manage that voice?
And so in my case, for Gretchen, there wasthis is like an evergreen thing for me.
She is she's always with me. Yeah.
And I,
for a long time
was very focusedon telling her to be quiet.
(19:36):
Shut up.
I would say, like, shutup, Gretchen, I'm got this.
I'm fine. Right.
And so somewhat helpful in the beginning,
what that morphed into
was I actually have to love her.
I have to love her like she's.
She's this out of things that were bornwhen I was young trying to serve me.
(19:58):
That word was important at the time.
Maybe some needs weren't met. Right.
And so she served a purpose there.
And now, as I'm evolving as a group,
those same patterns of behavior like thattake no energy for me to do.
Those ingrained patterns of behavioraren't serving me anymore.
The shoulds aren't serving me.
And so for me,it was a way to identify her.
(20:21):
So now I'm like, oh, Gretchen,I know you love me.
I know you're trying toprotect me, but I got this.
I'm going to do this.
So that was maybe a long, convolutedlike story about it, but it can be.
That's even just one trick to do.
I have a client that calls his,
you know, his inner voice.
(20:42):
He was in the military, so he'llhe'll say, sergeant, and then, what?
His last name,which I won't say here is like Sergeant.
And so because that particular inner voiceis very, like exact in
and very and it's causing him
more internal harm than good right nowand that's something he wants to get over.
(21:03):
So we're kind of playing around with thatI love it
I love it because comingfrom a military background, I get it.
When you start using the rank
with somebody, then thatit puts it to a whole nother level.
Yes, but I know what you mean.
With my public speaking,that's always been a weakness for me.
And it had I had given a presentation
(21:26):
when I was in the Army and I wasI got nervous,
I couldn't speak, I melted downand that was like at that would.
And so from then on, my inner critic,you know, kind of went to the place of,
well, you know, people don't want to hear
what you know, you don't have anythingto say that people don't already know.
(21:46):
So that was something that stuck with mefrom that incident.
And so I never wanted to do publicspeaking again.
So when I did this TEDx talk,and for those people who know me,
let me tell you,
it was the first timethat I really connected with the audience
because the audience in Manteca,what a beautiful community that they are.
(22:10):
And I couldn't see them because the lightswere so bright, but I could feel them.
And that was like the first timewhere I really put
that inner voice to restwhen it came to the public speaking point.
So I think it really is a journeyto get to that place.
I don't think you can just turn it offright away,
but it's something that you need to workon, you know?
(22:32):
And I think there's a piece of it too
that is,
courage over comfort.
Like.
Oh, okay.
I have this other,
saying that sometimes I use of, like,resistance equals curiosity.
So, like, when I feel myself wantingto say no, when I feel myself retreating.
(22:57):
Okay, what what does that mean?
And then there's the muscle building
of feeling the fear and doing it anyway,
like I'm so scared, right now,and I'm going to go anyway.
And I feel like it's like at the gym,
you know,when you're starting to lift weights
the first or ten timesyou do it, you're like shaking, right?
As you're trying to lift.
(23:17):
But eventually more times you get stronger
and eventuallyyou're ready for more weight.
I love that you brought up courage.
I had the courage expertSandra Fold was then on my show
and she made a comment
that children don't hearabout courage anymore.
I mean, it's not really somethingthat is brought up.
(23:40):
So what what?
When you talk about courage,why is that important to you?
Because you youyou talk about courage a lot.
And I've known you for a while.And we talk about courage.
So what does that mean to you?
Well, I mean, it is one of the big thingsthat drew me to wanting to help support
the Girl
Scouts, who because a lot of their workis all about trying to build courage
and confidence in young girls and women.
(24:01):
I think because it's so that vital to me.
Well,I, I in a lot of my work in the past,
I've seen the dark side of leadersprioritizing their own comfort
over,
I guess courage could be a rightword, right?
So whether that's I'm not going to givethis employee feedback that they need
(24:24):
because I don't want them to be upsetor it makes me uncomfortable.
So I'm choosing my maybe notconsciously, but,
you know, there's that idea, you know,that which we cannot see drives us.
You can't change what you can't see.
It's like a young in, quote.
And so the courage piece
is not the,you've probably heard from your courage.
(24:46):
It's not the absence of fear.
It's feeling the discomfort and
and enduring the discomfort that comes
with doing something different or new,whether that's trying
something new, like a Ted talk,which is amazing, by the way.
Thank you.You're going to do it should be so that,
(25:07):
or havingthat conversation or I'm in the board room
and I have a point of viewand I'm afraid to say it.
And it's, it's enduring that discomfortand that only comes
and maybe the experimentscan be really small at first.
It doesn't have to bethis big like Ted is amazing.
(25:27):
But for others maybe there's a little bitof building the muscle.
And so whatever those little microcourage moments look like
could be sharing a storyon a podcast about Gretchen.
It could be, just telling youhow I'm afraid or I'm scared, right?
Like, there's.
So that's a big spectrum of ideas,but the idea of
(25:49):
just feeling it and not letting that fear
or discomfort make the decision for you.
Choosing
voting for who you want to be.
Right.
And I also think there's some for me
there is some connection between courage
particularlywhen it comes to like yourself or whatever
(26:10):
shifts you want to make that enduringthat discomfort.
There's something about it.
This is going to sound super corny.
It's like an act of self-love.
Because I'm choosingwho I want to be in that moment.
Maybe I'm not there yet,but I'm I'm doing little baby steps,
and then my brain goes to,
(26:32):
that physics, principle, right?
Things at rest tend to stay at rest.
Things in motion tend to stay in motion.
But the amount of energy
it takes to get somethingfrom rest to motion is extraordinary.
But once it's moving.
And so it's like, that's the journey,I think for all of us.
If I've been at rest with,I don't know, my relationship
with conflict or something elsethat I'm trying to improve for myself.
(26:55):
And so it's like little baby microand just let the momentum
keep going and feel good.
When you've done that small little thing
I was hard.
So there's something there.
Yeah.
I like to encourage people to play withbecause you did it.
So this leads us into your Maverick.
(27:16):
Oh yeah.
So tell us about the baby steps, the MicroMaverick moves that you had to make
in order to start your own business.
Leave what you left.
I'm going to let you tell the story.
But that was a pretty massivemaverick move.
Thank you.
At the time,you know, maybe like other Maverick moves,
it didn't feel like it at the time, right?
(27:38):
It felt like full of fear and dread.
But, so I had, a very long relationshipwith the last company I worked with.
It was Blizzard Entertainment. They were,
I just thought I would never leave.
It was just full of tremendous
creative, smart humans,and I loved being a part of it.
And that is a massive company. Well, it's,
(28:01):
World of Warcraft,
Overwatch, Diablo, Hearthstone, StarCraftlot of fun,
amazing experiences that they are creatingfor for the world. Me
and so I think that leads to one thingabout
so my maverick move was
leaving honestly.
(28:23):
My identity,all of my identity was wrapped.
Who am I if I am not a working at BlizzardB with this title.
So and I now in my coaching work
I realize how strongly identitycan keep people in place.
Because I can'tI can't lose what that was.
It's, it's likeit was like a part of my arm. Right.
(28:45):
So leaving almost felt like an amputation.
Self-inflicted imitation anyway.
But there was this call,
this, like, longing that I had.
And, I was talking to, a coach about this,
and he was chuckling as I was telling him,like, by the way, from the time I,
(29:06):
the idea
of, like, could I start my own thing towhen I actually left was like a year.
So there's a long process of like, good,I will I I'm so scared what will happen.
All of that stuff, you know, imagine that.
I'll just I don't want people to thinklike it was really quick.
And he was chuckling as I was
telling him these ideasof what I wanted to explore and try.
(29:29):
And he said, well, I it feels like you'redesigning the rest of your life.
And I was like, oh, that felt so good.
Like I was like,oh, I love how that like I'm creating.
Right. Instead of
edit, you knowthere is an editing process to it all to.
Right. What do I want to keep.
What still serves me.
What maybe do I need to let go of.
(29:50):
So anyway, my maverick move was startingmy own company leadership enthusiast
is the name of it.
It's a little boutique, consultingleadership development practice.
I do executive coaching.
I do work with teams,
and I do like training and facilitationon the topics of leadership.
And it is it sets my soul on fire.
(30:12):
It sets my soul on fire.
And every dayI feel very lucky that I got to that.
I made that call.
But make no mistake, and was not without,
fear discomfort.
Right?
I mean, at some point I think I just said,well, what's the worst that will happen?
I will fail, I will colossally flail, and
(30:35):
I guessI'll just go get a regular job again.
So once you know, there's a little bitof self-talk in that too, right?
How can I frame this to make it easierto step out
over the unknown and experiment?
Or try?
Do you remember specific momentsalong the way where you were building
those muscles?
(30:57):
What was some, couple of good moments?
Yeah, I
mean, I want to say like, almost every day
was because, you know,I went from, let's call it,
if I'll use an analogy,I went from a job and a role
where every day was a sprint,full, flat out sprint.
(31:18):
Meaning, when I got home, I dropped,
and then I had to get upand do it all over again.
And so when you go from sprinting to
no movement, you know,
like the quiet is very loud.
And so and telling myself,
(31:42):
I had this like prompt that I did,
and it was and sometimes
I use it with clients now,but I like to write.
So that's my method of liketrying to like clarify my thoughts.
But the prompt was,
I used to be dot, dot dot,
but now I am dot dot dot.
And I used to bewas like my current state.
(32:05):
Tired, exhausted.
Not really doing the thingsthat, like, fill
my cup and make me feel like
I'm making the kind of differencethat I want to make.
And then but now I am.
And then it was filled.
And the idea of the prompt is you getreally specific, you know, where am I?
What am I doing?
(32:25):
And so over time, there was like,I remember I started that prompt
and then like, would come back to itevery other week and add more things
until I had this very clear view of where
I wanted to be and find myselfand that I am.
There's some somethingempowering about that that I chose this.
(32:47):
I'm making these decisions,and that's like the things
emotions tend to stay in motion.
Like that kept the momentum going.
But still a journey.
I'm four years inand I don't have it all figured out, but,
that's part of the beauty I think
is proceeding anyway.
(33:08):
And with curiosity.
Proceeding with curiosity is.
And, Yeah,that's that's where I'm at today.
So if I were Gretchen looking at youfrom this side. Yes.
What what would I have learned?
But what I've learned.
What was the biggest lessonthat you learned?
I guess still learning.
(33:32):
The sounds so crazy,
but there's a little bit of, like,I am worthy
and not just saying that words,
but, like, feeling it internally.
You know, that inner critic that she would
often,Gretchen would often say the opposite.
And so and that these little microwhen I would call them of
(33:55):
no, no,no that's okay I got this and not, not
not making decisions based on those fears.
So every time I made a decisionlike doing a podcast.
That every cell in my body
was like no, why would I do that.
And that's just very vulnerableand no thank you.
(34:18):
And then choosing to do itanyway, like that's
the biggest lesson is
continual belief
in what I am capable of doing.
And kind of going back to, I guess, Sammy.
Sam was this quote like ABC,like I am a creator now as well,
(34:39):
right? I am creating
experiences and creating,
a career and a body of work
that I'm immensely proud of
and what I'm putting out into the world.
And that's another thing,like a Gretchen thing, right?
Like, can I put it out in the worldbecause I believe in it and it feels good.
(35:02):
And, and,
there's a distinction between that.
That's the measure of success versushow many likes
or how many people are watching, like,Gretchen lives in that space.
Because what other people think rightis, is what creates your worth.
And I want to live in the,
like, internally driven world.
(35:25):
I love that, I love that, but
when you make those decisions to do itanyway.
Yeah, I think that'swhen you start building that momentum.
So when you decide instead of saying noand you say yes, yeah.
And then you go and do somethingthat you're not comfortable
in, and then you do it again and again.
Then it becomes easy and then you'restarting with bigger things.
(35:47):
So I think the momentyou feel uncomfortable
is when you need to start thinking that,hey, I'm on my way somewhere.
That's right.
Resistance equals curiosity.
Resistance equals growth.
All of that is so true.
Lean into it. Don't avoid it. Yeah.
And you said that seeing yourself clearlyis a bold move and it's not an easy move.
(36:11):
So how can people start seeing themselves
more clearly in order to be able to havethe confidence to make these moves.
Yeah.
So from a leadership perspective,
that is the greatest giftyou can give yourself is to amplify
your own self-awareness,the ability for you to.
And if you can't do it on your own,get folks around you that can help
(36:33):
you see yourself, how you're showing up,your actions, your behaviors.
A lot of leaderssometimes tend to measure their success
based on their intentions,and no one can see those.
And so sometimes intentions and behaviordon't match.
And so I think there is
finding the strategic pausefinding reflection
(36:54):
moments, identifying when this doesn't.
Againall of this is rooted in what do I want.
As a leaderI want to do this or I want to do this.
And then
based on whatever those goals are right,
then you're chasing reflection moments.
They're pausing and saying like, why?
Why am I hesitating here?
(37:14):
Why didn't I say somethingin that last meeting, what was there?
And really starting to unpack and explorewhat's underneath all of that?
Because that's trying to
that is
elevating the unseen and making it seen.
And only thencan you do something with it.
(37:35):
So it sounds like, I wish I could give youa like a one, two, three.
Here'show you amplify your self-awareness.
There's so many different ways for fordifferent people, but that is the thing.
ChooseI guess the choice. Make the choice.
That's where it starts.
Make the choice to prioritize.
Where am I here?
What's going on for me?
(37:56):
What's triggering me?
Make those choices two strategic pauseand think about it.
Or create space in your calendarto do that.
Ten minutesafter that meeting, five minutes.
Scribble down some notes. Right.
It's making that choice.
And even in making that choiceis starting to go from rest to motion.
(38:18):
And you talked about identity.
That kind of resonated with me
because when you're in law enforcementand you leave, I mean carrying
a badge and a gunand having that authority
to leave that behind, I think menhave more problems with it than women do.
But still, I mean, I think but you'rereally kind of holding on to the past
(38:40):
because when you like, you'retalking about starting something
where your soul is on fire,that's out there for everybody.
It's just a matter of committingto yourself,
valuing yourself enough to be ableto make that step in that direction.
And you're right, it's hard.
It's not an easy process,but the glory and the
(39:01):
you know, the sunshine is shiningonce you get to the other side.
But all of those lessons that you learn,
that's that'sprobably the best part of it.
I mean, the journey that I mean,the richness is in the journey.
And hopefully the destination is good.
But I think it's all about the journey.
Yep I agree.
(39:22):
Well I don't want to
let you go before we talk about the GirlScouts of Orange County okay.
We went to oh my goodness.
So I have my bracelet on.
We went to an event last weekcalled the voice for girls,
and they had this wonderful woman.
She was an astronaut.
Her name was Emily, was her last name.
Oh, I know, sorry, Emily,I know we love you, Emily.
(39:45):
She is the female BillNye the science guy.
The space girl on Instagram.I started following her.
Oh. You did? Yeah.
Oh, she's amazing.
She was sharp.
The 100th woman in space.
Yeah.
And you know, what I loved about heris that, you know, she gets up on stage,
and, of course,a girl Scout, gold girl interviews her.
(40:05):
And I was so proud.
That gets me every time.
But here we have this, you know, the womenin space thing that has been going on
and people are talking negatively about,you know, the value of that.
And yet here comesthis actual female astronaut
who, you know, and obviously,these female astronauts are counting
(40:27):
how many women came before thembecause she was the 100th woman in space.
And she knew that, but the waythat she talked about it, she said that
it's good because peopleare talking about women going into space.
So, you know, I was just really impressedwith how gracious she was about that.
And, and then she showed a video of her
(40:47):
going into space, and I'mgetting goosebumps just thinking about it.
There was so much joy.
And she was so thrilled,you know, watching her in space,
it was just really great.
So what, what?
The women who are coming behind you,
all of these young women who are goingand I think I bought probably 25 boxes
(41:07):
or more of Girl Scout cookies this seasonbecause I cannot pass by a girl
who got the courage to ask it and say,Natalie, I know I'm buying 12 boxes.
Probably in courage. Exactly.
So what for all of the women
who are coming behind youand all of the great work
that you do, what inspires youto to really make a difference there?
Oh my gosh.
(41:31):
I, I want to
in the work that I do today,I want to help create
cultures and places of workthat we want those young girls
where those young girlsand women can thrive.
I want women
(41:51):
everywhere, regardless of age, to
choose courage over comfort.
Or fear.
Feeling the fear and doing it anyway.
And I so that's like the biggest piece of
of why I love helping the Girl Scouts.
Doing what they dois so much more than cookies in terms of
(42:15):
what that organizationis doing for young, for young women
and also the tribe element of it,you know, their interests and,
and building connectionwith another female.
And that we're here, like,lift her up right on your bracelet.
(42:35):
Like, I do not want to workor live in a world where women are,
you know, tearing each other down.
You know, space for it.
And so they are learning that we are herefor each other.
We're going to support each other.
And that's an inspiring,
and they're just incredible
(42:56):
dedicated,
you know, the gold Award winners.
I always joke about this,but it is every single time it happens,
I just think to myself, like, well,I am wholly unaccomplished.
I was I was 16,I was not doing any of that.
I was wrapped up in, you know, me,I know it.
(43:18):
And so the fact that these womenare taking chances and trying
to make the world a better placeis just a constant source of inspiration.
Absolutely.
So anyone that has a chance to supporta Girl Scout for the mission of Girl
Scoutsis putting their money in good places.
I agree they put four gold girlGirl Scouts on the stage,
(43:41):
and one young ladywas talking all about the financial
thingthat she created for all of these people,
and I was sitting at the tablenext to US Bank.
And so they were very interestedin listening to this young lady,
and then they asked herwhat she wanted to do when she graduated
from high school,and she said she wanted to be a doctor.
(44:03):
You should have heard the groaningthat was going on at the table next to me.
So, you know, at 16 and 15,at 14 years old,
these girls are having impact on all of usto inspire us to, to to do great things.
Yeah.
And also, I think what's always
fascinating to me isI was such a late bloomer.
(44:24):
I graduated collegeand I had no idea what I wanted to do.
Not a clue.
And I was just fascinated.
My sister, my younger sister,
who's one of the most amazing humansin the whole entire world.
Janine.
Anyway, she always was so crispon, like, I'm going to do this.
I'm going to be a therapist,I'm going to be all this.
(44:45):
And I just would look at her and be like,oh, what does that feel like?
I don't know.
And so that,you know, having that kind of conviction,
that's such a certain age comingfrom someone who eventually found it.
And in doing
and along that pathfound a lot of crappy jobs
(45:06):
and not things that,you know, filled me up.
So and just that drive
that's just.
It's amazing.
Yeah. So bring it all.
And this is one thing that I love aboutyou is because you you are an artist.
You are creativeand you brought this poem to my attention.
(45:28):
And I want you to share some of itto really help
kind of solidifythe conversation that we had today.
It's by John O'Donohue.
As I can read the whole thing,
you can read probably the firstand the last paragraphs first and last.
Yes. I was sitting on my glasses.
Yes, I need to see.
(45:48):
All right.
So for those who would likethe whole poem, it's by John O'Donohue.
It's called A poem for a New Beginning.
And I brought this to Ginabecause it's, just calls to me
when I was in the midstof figuring out my maverick.
Move it.
It's, was kindling oak like a spark.
(46:09):
Read the whole poem. Oh, okay.
Go ahead then.
Can I sell it now? Yeah.
You did, you did, you did. Okay.
Okay. In the out a wave.
Out of the way.
Places of the heartwhere your thoughts never think to wander.
This beginning has been quietly forming.
Waiting until you are ready to emerge.
(46:30):
For a long timeit has watched your desire.
Feeling the emptiness growing inside you.
Noticing how you willed yourself on it,still unable to leave.
You had outgrown it.
Watchedyou play with the seduction of safety
and the gray promises that samenesswhispered.
Heard the waves of turmoil riseand relent.
(46:52):
Wondered would you always live like this?
Then thedelight when your courage kindled and out.
You stepped onto new ground.
Your eyes young againwith energy and dream.
A path of plenitude opening before you.
Though your destination is not yet clear,
you can trust the promise of this opening.
(47:14):
Unfurl yourselfinto the grace of beginning
this is at one with your life's desire.
Awaken your spirit of adventure.
Hold nothing back.
Learn to find ease and risk.
Soon you will be at home in a new rhythmfor your soul.
Senses of the world that awaits you.
Yes. Chills. Yes.
(47:37):
Chill. All right.
Thank you for letting me read that. Yes.
So we're all going to go out and do thatright now.
Yes. That's your that's your spark.
Go chase it.
Thank you for being on the show.Thank you.
It's a pleasure.
Making Maverick moves with Gina Osborne
is produced and edited by Zille Media.
Connect with us on social media at Gina L
(47:58):
osborne.com/making maverick moves.
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