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July 30, 2025 36 mins

Are your ads landing with consumers? 

In today’s episode, Alan chats with Gayle Troberman, executive advisor at iHeartMedia, about the gap between marketers and consumers, ways for marketers to bridge this gap, and the marketing principles that stay consistent despite technological advancements.  

Gayle emphasizes the importance of balancing new technology with classic marketing approaches and cautions against neglecting potential customers by focusing too narrowly on the target audience She highlights the power of evoking memories in advertising,

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Are you ready to go beyond the basics of marketing?
I'm Alan Hart and this is Marketing Beyond, where we talk about the questions that sparkchange and share ideas that challenge the status quo.
Join us as we explore the future of marketing and its endless potential.
The average marketer may not be as in touch with their consumers the way they think theyare, even though we're living in an age where we have more data at our fingertips than

(00:37):
ever before.
And that's a huge problem.
I mean, you're seeing so many brands not growing.
And I think part of the problem is that we're very often talking to ourselves and our adsare reflecting this bubble we live in and our ads are not reflecting.
the values, the beliefs, the interests, the passions of the real American consumer.
And so we've got to break out of that bubble.

(00:58):
And that's a lot of what we spent time with this research trying to help marketers.
Today on the show, we've got Gail Troberman.
She's an executive advisor at iHeart Media.
In this role, she works with all the iHeart Media businesses to help them connect withconsumers in a much more deep way.

(01:18):
Today on the show, we're gonna talk about some research that she does, the new Americanconsumer, how it came about, what some of the stats and findings, which are phenomenal,
and the disconnect between marketers, these coastal beings, if you will, that are maybedisconnected with the everyday consumer.
and how consumers actually feel ignored by the ads that we actually create and themarketing we create for them.

(01:44):
So that and much more with Gail Troberman.
Gail, welcome to the show.
Yeah, I'm excited to have this conversation because it's going to weave and go a lot ofdifferent directions, but something about a podcasters in the middle of it.

(02:09):
uh And we're doing a podcast.
sound at some point.
Audio will find its way into this conversation.
Love it.
I love it.
one thing before we get into the business side of things, I hear you are a very goodMuppet fan or a very excited Muppet fan.
I am a huge Muppet fan.
have been, I think I was first generation Sesame Street, so I was like that perfect agewhen it started airing and I just got hooked on Muppets.

(02:36):
And it's a funny story.
My wife and I a lot, you we try to remind ourselves how crazy lucky we are, you know, tohave the lives we have, the love we have, the friends, the opportunity, the fun things we
get to do.
And so we created this word.
We call it Muppa Lucky.
And basically it's that idea, we try to say it to each other all the time when we'rehaving a crappy day or things aren't going right because Muppalucky in my definition of

(03:04):
this new word I coined is when you realize how lucky you are that you kind of want tobounce up and down like a Muppet.
Muppets have a way of evoking joy that we all need to remember.
So hopefully this will be a lovely Muppalucky day for us both.
Yes, yeah, I hope so.
I love that.
Moppa Lucky.
Well, tell me about your career path.
You were most recently CMO at iHeart.

(03:27):
You are now in kind of an executive advisor role.
But like, where did you get your start and kind of some of the highlights, if you will?
Sure.
I majored in TV radio communications because I was a huge fan of TV and radio and that wasthe only thing on the checklist back in the day that seemed to make sense.
uh Then I realized advertising was kind of fun and I loved the psychology of it and I kindof specialized in that in college, went out to become a creative and get a creative

(03:56):
director job and stuff and that looked really fun and cool.
um
At the time, back in the early agency days, you when I was graduating in the late 80s,they made you do entry-level assistant jobs.
And so they'd move you around to different departments.
And so I ended up getting put in a PR job and getting promoted before I ever moved toanother team.

(04:18):
And so instead of becoming a creative director, I became a PR person.
And I think it was the best place in the world to learn the art of communication, right?
When you can pay for the space.
you can kind of, know, maybe it's easier.
But when you have to convince other people to tell the story or to let you tell the story,it's a different art and you have to think a lot harder and be a lot more thoughtful, I

(04:42):
think, about the others and the recipients of stories.
So PR was a great place to learn my career.
And then I ended up at Microsoft.
We had pitched some of their business and not wanted in the PR world, went over there,started in PR and ended up.
uh
having a series of just incredible jobs with the genius people that were sitting inRedmond.
We fought a lot of amazing battles.

(05:03):
My last job there, I was a chief creative officer running advertising, running all ouragencies, a job I had no right whatsoever to have.
But I got to learn from all the best, like the best of the best people in creative.
And, you know, it was just an amazing time.
And then years later, I met Bob Pittman.
And similarly, I didn't know much about audio.

(05:25):
I'd done some, but I didn't know much.
And I just thought it was after talking to him, such an underutilized platform um andcraft and skillset.
And so I got really excited again about the creative potential and another job.
I didn't know quite what it would be.
You can sort of see the thread.
Most of my most important job moves or career changes were all about just stumblingtowards great, smart people.

(05:51):
uh And here we are.
I love that.
love that.
Well, you spent, think, over 10 years as CMO at IR.
if you look at any of the news, 10 years is a big thing.
What's your secret?
my secret.
I think most things that matter in life are endurance sports, right?

(06:13):
And they're going to be good days and bad.
And you're going to win and lose some battles internally and externally with theconsumers.
But for me, it's interesting.
We just did a panel here at the Marketing Hall of Fame, and we were talking about brandsand enduring stories.
And I think one of the things, it's career advice and it's brand advice.

(06:36):
You have to realize that things don't happen overnight and um you're not going to changethe world and you're not going to change the company and you're not going to change the
brand and the trajectory in a minute.
And I think we've all gotten, as life is sped up and technology is sped up life, we've allgotten enamored of this immediacy, right?

(06:58):
and then the adaptability, right?
And showing up differently in these different places.
And for me, I like big, hard problems, right?
Getting marketers to get over their visual bias and really get serious about the power ofaudio is not easy.
And that's the battle I've been fighting for 10 years and we've made a ton of strides.

(07:18):
I think you're seeing audio really have a renaissance again.
think podcasting's made it a little...
top of mind, but I think people are realizing the reach and the mass reach potential withbroadcast radio.
mean, audio is the most versatile and flexible thing.
So creatively, you know, it just doesn't get old helping.

(07:38):
What I get to do at iHeart is I get to help other people build their brands using ourplatform.
So it's kind of fun.
It's not just marketing iHeart, it's marketing iHeart to the marketing community.
um And so that's just been an incredible ride.
And I think we're just seeing more and more brilliant work crossing the airwaves as audiocreatives.

(08:02):
Still room to go.
There's still a lot of crappy creative.
My work isn't quite done.
No, not done yet.
well, you talked about your career and spending time at Microsoft and uh IPG and iHeart.
uh You've seen a lot of change over that, especially as a marketer.
Is there any enduring truths, if you will, oh of what's still relevant today?

(08:27):
Oh, sure.
I mean, the technology changes, the buzzwords change, right?
But I'm sitting on panels now and you can take out the word AI and insert the word digitalor internet, right?
Every time a new technology comes along or podcasting, right?
Every time a new platform emerges, marketers think it's like the world has to change andit really doesn't, right?

(08:51):
If you know who your brand is.
and you know where you want to go find growth, then it's about telling good stories.
It's about being relevant to those consumers.
think we've gotten so enamored.
We talk a lot about this at iHeart.
think in the digital era, the biggest challenge that we face is that we somehow, becausewe started getting more data and being able to target more, that we started thinking the

(09:21):
target was the only target.
Right?
And I think we stopped talking to too many people.
Right?
The bullseye might be your target audience, right?
And we love our target audience.
We spend all this time obsessing about those archetypes and the greedy striver who lovesthis and that and only does these things and the gen-z-er who loves adventure.

(09:45):
And we put all these dimensions around the bullseye.
And then we forget, like,
If you're a Master Reach brand in America, or you want to be the biggest brand in yourcategory, you have to talk to a lot of people to grow.
And if you just win the bullseye, you're not going to win.
So I think we're in this world where we're, in a lot of ways, we're letting technology getin the way of growth.

(10:08):
And I think there's room for mass reach, big ideas that are universal.
We're talking about, you know, listing the ingredients of the Big Mac.
Right.
Right.
We can all still do that.
That is powerful marketing.
And it didn't matter if you were a teen or a senior, you could list the ingredients of theBig Mac and it was in your head.

(10:29):
And when lunchtime came around, there's a good chance you might go buy one.
Right.
Right.
And so I think we sometimes let new innovation
get in the way of growth, Or we get so enamored of the technology or the opportunity thatwe forget any of these platforms, any of these new tools, whether it's AI or targeting,

(10:51):
they're only as good as the stories we put out there.
And sometimes our growth is going to be everywhere, not just like at the bullseye.
yeah, yeah.
Well, and to your point, if you want to grow, you want to grow your brand, you've gotappeal to more people.
And a lot of people are not buying you every day either.
Oh, I know.
that is so true, right?

(11:11):
I think I saw a stat once on something like I think in like a beverage category orcarbonated beverages.
I think a casual consumer of like a cola buys two a year.
Right.
Right.
So there's the person who drinks a ton of your product and you're probably overspending onthem and they're buying it and they love it and they drink, you know, several a day.

(11:32):
And then there's this casual consumer, but you don't know when those two
So how can you be in my consideration set?
right.
Well, you know, it's funny Bob Pittman my boss always says, you know He like goes out todinner most nights and his assistant will be like where where do you want to go tonight?
You're having dinner with so-and-so and he'll always be like I have the same tworestaurants in my head, right?

(11:53):
So if you're a restaurant and you can get in my head, you're gonna expand thatconsideration set Exponentially, right?
Right and that that's where creating memory structures is so important.
I think marketers are not
thinking as hard as they should about neuroscience and brain science and memorystructures.
And that all sounds very futuristic, but it's really as simple as the jingles we allremember.

(12:18):
To all beef, patty, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions, and a sesame seedbun.
I don't know the last time that ad ran or when I heard it, but I still, when he mentionedit, I You know it.
Right?
And that's when that's in your consideration set, right?
got to get into my memory and you've got to get in in a way that you encode that and youfile it.

(12:39):
And audio is so much better at that when you look at neuro studies because we were justsaying earlier, what'd you have for breakfast?
If I showed you breakfast in a video spot, I'd be wrong.
There's a very big chance, a big margin of error if I show you a healthy thing, you had anunhealthy thing, if I show you eggs, you had fruit, whatever.

(13:02):
But if I say, hey, Alan, what'd have for breakfast?
uh and made a sandwich.
But you just, more brain cells fire.
It's the power of audio.
And I don't think people use it well enough.
The power of audio is ask me a question and every listener across America is picturingtheir breakfast.
Now if you want to tell me, was it healthy or not?

(13:23):
Was it too expensive?
Was it on the run?
Blah, blah, you want to sell me, you can reach me.
And I will remember it longer because I'm using more neurons because I'm picturing it.
myself.
The brain is the best production machine out there.
I just don't think we use audio the right way to just ask questions.

(13:45):
No, I love that.
I love that.
Well, I know one of the areas that you're going to stay close to in this new kind of arevolved role is your new American consumer research.
you've done a couple of studies, but I want to know how it came about.
Where did you?
We were doing an event at our offices for marketers and times we'll bring out some of themore interesting podcasters and let them have a conversation with brands and talk about

(14:11):
podcasting and advertising.
And Malcolm Gladwell is one of our most genius podcasters with the Pushkin team at iHeart.
And he was speaking that night at our event and we were sitting around for the event andwe were talking and he's like, you're the CMO.
And he's like, can you just...
answer one question for me.
I know my listeners.

(14:32):
Why don't the brands want to just jump on the phone, have a quick conversation, and thenlet me talk about their stuff to my listeners in a way my listeners will find interesting.
And I was like, could it be that simple?
And Malcolm being way smarter than I will ever be, he started hypothesizing on where itbreaks down.

(14:52):
And one of his theories was that marketers live in this world that's very East Coastelite.
We live in a bubble.
We live in a world that isn't necessarily the same as the people we're trying to talk to.
And he had this brilliant idea of what if we actually pointed that out?
Like what is the gap between what marketers think and what real American consumers think?

(15:18):
And so that was the impetus of the study.
We've done two waves of the research.
We, I think, sort of turned it into an annual thing and the memorable facts from it are,that get marketers attention, are simple, simple things like the first study we learned
that half of Americans have never heard of an app for all sprints.

(15:38):
I know.
Insert gasps, right?
How is that possible?
Zero percent of marketers have never heard of an app for all sprints.
And it goes on and on.
What do people find cool and cringey?
Marketers think pickleball is the coolest thing on the planet.
uh Real people find it kind of cringey.
They love hunting and fishing.

(15:59):
Real people love lottery tickets.
mean, a dollar in a dream, right?
Marketers think they're cringey.
I'm not sure why I don't get that one.
But you know, and we went deeper into values and a lot of more meaningful things thatreally they start reflecting that the market, the average marketer may not be as in touch
with their consumers the way they think they are, even though we're living in an age wherewe have more data at our fingertips than ever before.

(16:26):
And that's a huge problem.
I mean, you're seeing so many brands not growing.
And I think part of the problem is that we're very often talking.
to ourselves and our ads are reflecting this bubble we live in and our ads are notreflecting the values, the beliefs, the interests, the passions of the real American
consumers.
And so we've got to break out of that bubble.

(16:46):
And that's a lot of what we, we have spent time with this research trying to helpmarketers.
Right.
Well, and I think I don't want to call anyone out, but there's been some high profilebrands that have done exactly that and kind of like missed the mark with their.
Yeah, there have been a lot of fiascos in marketing, right?
And, you know, we do live in a cancel culture world where, you know, when you miss, peoplenotice.

(17:10):
You know, one of the sort of depressing stats from the last wave of this new Americanconsumer research was 44 % of American consumers feel ignored by media and brands.
44 %?
Almost half of our potential customers don't even think we see them.
Right.
Right?
And you know, it's funny when I was prepping for, uh to present this research withMalcolm, the first time we rolled it out, I was sitting in a hotel room in New York and

(17:39):
the TV was on in the background without the sound.
And I saw three uh ads that all had pickleball in them.
And I was like, there it is.
That is the problem.
We think it's cool and new and next.
Right?
I mean, look at NFTs.
When we did this research was the height of NFT marketing.
Right.
And like, you know,
Two-thirds of consumers had never heard of an NFT.

(18:01):
But how much time and energy did we waste trying to be first and cool and new and next andcompletely missing the mark and throwing a lot of money away on NFTs?
With so many people feeling ignored, what do you feel like marketers should be doing tomake sure that they are connecting in the right way?
Sure, mean, I think it's getting in touch with real people getting out of LA and New York.

(18:26):
I happen to live uh most of the year in some real towns in America, Utah, Rhode Island,and Windby Island.
I spend a lot of time outside New York and LA, which I think really helps to stay intouch.
And then you've got to ask the right questions and you've got to go to places that makeyou feel uncomfortable.

(18:48):
I think a lot of times, it's the bane of my existence, I'll explain the massive reach ofbroadcast radio today.
Nine out 10 consumers are listening to broadcast radio.
Nielsen data, is that my data?
Not spinning it.
Every month, nine out 10 Americans are listening to broadcast radio.
We know it, we see it.
Ryan Seacrest or Elvis Duran, Charlemagne, they're on air right now while we're talking,talking to 10, 12 million Americans, live and unscripted for four hours.

(19:17):
m
And that's why people are listening, because it's humans talking live and unscripted tome.
And they're there whenever I have that time or I need human connection.
And marketers just don't believe that that's the amazing opportunity it is.
We have a conversation about live media and people go, yeah, we've got to be in sports.

(19:38):
Great.
You might also want to try broadcast radio.
Right.
you know, people like I said, marketers are so attached to our visuals.
We agonize about our logo and the transparentness and how the translucent the bubbles areand how the logo spins and that, you know, that end of that spot.
But we're we're missing a huge opportunity with audio and it's cheaper and it's faster andit's more efficient and it has massive reach.

(20:05):
And so, you know, I think that's just like one of those huge opportunities.
If you want to
get back in touch with real Americans, start doing radio, start doing local radio.
Think about what you want to say to people in Boston versus Louisville, Miami versusPortland, Maine.
And show up, think about showing up in communities because people live in real community.

(20:30):
And if you can show up and be part of their world and part of their life and acknowledgeyou're showing up there, you're in their place, their town.
You share some values.
can make people, whatever, laugh or inform them or educate them, whatever you want to do,but do it in their language, on their terms.
Huge opportunity.
And I think you'll be shocked by how powerful it is versus that hyperproduced thing thatwe all get so excited about our spot.

(20:58):
You know, there's just other ways to show up in real people's lives.
And I think they'll feel seen and feel heard.
Yeah, well, mean, you you you've got a zealot in audio.
I'm a podcaster.
Yes, so you're talking to the choir.
Yeah, I believe in the platform.
mean, it, podcasting is the fastest growing medium, I think, in the history of media.

(21:18):
And it is the least scripted.
It's very intimate.
I you're literally in their ears, usually.
and now everyone wants to turn audio podcasts.
I think a lot of the reason people love them is because you can multitask, right?
You can go for a run and listen to a podcast.
You can walk the dog and listen to a podcast.
You can drive to pick up the kids from school and listen to a podcast or a radio show.

(21:39):
That's part of why people love it.
They pop in and out of audio all day long as it fits into your life.
And now I think there's this push, particularly by marketers less by podcasters, to turnit into video.
We like video.
I know.
But I think the reason people are loving podcasting is the power of audio.
And, you know, when you put a camera in front of somebody, this conversation gets less,right?

(22:03):
It gets less real and we get a little more self-conscious.
And, you know, so I think as we evolve, you know, podcasts into video, you have to thinkabout when, where and why.
But first and foremost, I think that live unscripted human conversation, we're all cravingit.
No, I agree, I agree.
Well, one of the things in the report, I think it may be the most recent one, but maybeI've got that wrong, is this notion of influencers.

(22:27):
And we think about influencers, but we don't think of, and marketers, think, think aboutinfluencers very, very differently than.
Who really influences, I mean, think about it, right?
Most of us, like, who really influences the purchase decisions that you make?
Real people are twice as likely to be influenced by their family and friends, right?

(22:48):
And then by their religious community, their church groups, like things like that.
Marketers are three times as likely to be influenced by fear and fame and twice as likelyto be influenced by fortune.
Right?
And so you see that reflected back.
How many scary pharma ads are, you know, worrying us about things that, you know, thingsthat we didn't know existed and we probably will never have.

(23:13):
And m yet there's this huge opportunity to help become, like I said, part of thatcommunity.
Right?
And one of the most powerful influences, if you're a parent, in your life is what yourkids think.
Right?
But nobody's...
trying to start that conversation, right?
You go to the appliance store to buy a refrigerator, your kids are gonna have an opinionabout that, right?

(23:38):
Your kids are gonna be like, dad, those jeans are so 10 years ago, right?
Like the people who influenced your choice, and you see it reflected back, you drive downa street in the burbs, you're gonna see a lot of the same cars, right?
People wearing the same shoes.
So breaking into that bubble, someone else's bubble, how do you do that well?

(23:59):
How do you do local?
How do you become part of a community as a brand?
And I think if you unlock that, you'll start seeing incredible growth and incredibleloyalty.
In that study we also saw around influence, 75 % of people are willing to pay more, paymore in this economy for a brand that shares their value.

(24:19):
And my values are about my community, my kids, my church group, my sports team, my...
the things I really care about.
so thinking, getting out of our bubble, we've got to stop talking to ourselves because ifyou just win the marketer bullseye, you're just not going to find enough growth.

(24:41):
Right?
So how can you just get out into the real world and real Americans and start understandingtheir values?
I love it, love it.
Well, one other area I wanna ask you about is this notion of targeted ads or AI generatedwhatever.
ah
of the week year month.
How do we, it seems like there's a creepy factor to it for people.

(25:04):
How do we think about that and how do we think about, we need some of the efficienciesthat we gain from those things, but how do we think about doing it the right way?
Yeah, mean, you know, as consumers, right?
Put on your consumer hat.
haven't we all been creeped out by some ad that's followed us around and you're like,what?
You know, we say a friend of mine showed up and hadn't told people she was pregnant andshowed up at a dinner party at my house with an uh organic, non-alcoholic hemp gin, right?

(25:34):
And I will never buy that.
I will never drink that.
And yet I for months was getting ads for this hemp gin, right?
It was complete waste of that brand's money.
Right?
Because they had some data point, I guess, about my phone or her phone or, you know, Idon't even know exactly how that happened, but I know it was related and it was creepy.

(25:55):
And so, you I say this to marketers all the time.
I'm like, you know, it's great to use data.
I mean, be smart, see what works, measure, optimize.
AI is an incredible tool, right?
To use it to version.
We use it at I Heart.
So a lot of our talent don't have to waste time repeating, listen to On Air with RyanSeacrest at Kiss FN Boston, Kiss FN LA, et cetera.

(26:18):
There's lots of efficient ways, taking your video and cutting it into a lot of differentsizes and shapes, taking things cross-platform, turning audio into video or vice versa,
adapting it for different platform media contexts.
Is your spot running in the morning, in the evening, on a hip hop station?
It should sound like hip hop.
Pop station, should sound like pop, right?

(26:39):
There's a million amazing uses for this AI tool, but I think if we let it go unleashed,like I tell people all the time, don't just look at your ad in isolation.
Have people show you what it's gonna look like when it shows up on my phone or in my feedor, right?
Like look at the context and go, ooh, I wouldn't say that that way if I were in your feed,right?

(27:04):
That's mine.
You know, I didn't invite you into this little personal space with me and my friends,right?
So maybe you take a different tone there.
so, you I think it's it's it's thinking about AI as a tool, not a tool.
Right.
Right.
And then really being responsible as a human.
think marketers have to take responsibility for the messages we put out there.

(27:28):
as as marketing has gotten so fragmented, I mean,
How many messages are you putting out there?
Maybe that's part of the problem.
Maybe it is too many.
If you don't have time to actually listen to them all or watch them all or put them all upin one room and decide which ones really deserve to see the light of day.
Right.
think we might all do a little less, a little more responsibly and we'd get a littlebetter result.

(27:54):
Yeah, no, that's good advice, very good advice.
Well, one of the things I like to do is get to know you a little bit better.
And so I've got a series of questions I ask everybody that comes on the show.
But curious if there's been an experience of your past that defines or makes up who youare today.
Yeah, I think we were talking about it in sort of the career uh growth and kind ofstumbling towards amazing humans.

(28:22):
So, you know, in my career and in my life, I've always just followed humans, right?
You meet an amazing human, you stay in touch.
I don't know if we're going to do business together, if it's ever going to matter.
But for me, it's this human first, work second.
outcome second.
And, you know, I sort of grew up with that as a huge principle, um you know, of getting toknow people and then finding your way to amazing great outcomes.

(28:51):
And that served me really well in life and in work.
Yeah, have younger professionals ask me all the time, it relates to what you said, how doyou build your network?
I said, well, it starts one person at a time.
Exactly.
It's like, hey, let's have a drink.
Let's go get a coffee.
I think sometimes, think, and I feel for, I think the generation trying to network withall the tools they have at their disposal.

(29:17):
We didn't have a lot.
We were the generation, our parents sent us out with like 25 cents and a key and be homeat five.
And where you went and what you did.
Now we have so much, think this imposter syndrome and people trying to like,
prove their value versus just enjoying.
had the luxury of so many amazing people in this industry I've gotten to meet and workwith and work around, but all the best, most memorable, I think, insightful moments, those

(29:49):
didn't happen at the table in the formal conversation, right?
They happened in transit, in between things, and when you open yourself up and you stoptrying to network.
and you start actually looking people in the eye and having a conversation.
And also, you know, I think the best ideas, particularly for marketers, the best ideas aregoing to come from your barista or your hairstylist or the person behind you in the

(30:15):
grocery line.
They're not necessarily going to come from the most to see marketer that you go see on apanel and then you wait in line to go ask one question of, right?
You're probably not going to get genius there, but there's genius out there everywhere ifyou just talk to humans.
So that's always been advice.
That's good advice.
Well, if you were starting this all over again, what advice would you give your youngerself?

(30:38):
oh
would I give my younger self?
I think probably a little more patience and empathy.
Good and bad in my career at Microsoft, and it was amazing.
mean, everyone was so smart and so passionate about everything.
And so it was a very aggressive culture.
um It was a fast-paced culture, and you had to think fast and move fast and defend yourideas.

(31:04):
I think um I've learned is I've gotten a little older and I've had a little moreexperience in the world.
I think sometimes we have to, it's not always gonna be the best defended idea and we don'thave to attack everything.
And sometimes I think we just need to show up whether it's in work and life with moreempathy and a little more time.

(31:24):
It's something I'm still wrestling with, which is just how to pause, which is lettingideas happen, letting other people have some base to figure it out, some time, maybe even.
I hate the phrase making space.
I think we need to make time.
I think we're not making enough time for the work, for the humans.

(31:45):
And that's where the most fun happens and the most creativity happens is when we make alittle more time and things can bubble up.
Lovely.
Well, is there anything like you think people marketers should be learning more about ormaybe something that you're trying to more about yourself right now?
Sure, I think, I mean, we talked about AI and I think AI is just sort of maybe the tip ofthe spear of new and next, but I think how to balance the new stuff with the classics.

(32:18):
The classics have been around for a reason, the big platforms, the mass media, and it'snot an either or, but I think I really, and obviously I'm biased, so I'll have my bias too
as I talk about marketer biases.
I think broadcast radio is an insanely undervalued place in a time where we're all underinsane budget pressure.

(32:39):
It's a place where you can go talk to new people and find new growth.
And it can be a tenth the cost, a tenth the time.
So that's always one huge piece of advice.
If you haven't tested audio all up, but particularly broadcast radio, just go do it.
Try a few markets.
I bet you will see, you will learn some really interesting things.

(33:01):
And I think you'll start finding some new consumers and some new ways of connecting.
I love it.
Are there any trends or subcultures or anything out there in the world that you're justcurious about right now?
Oh, interesting.
I love all the trends and sort of following them.
know, what's old is new.
One of the things I thought was fascinating and social that was popping up was this sortof young people using the term propaganda and pushing back against what they think is

(33:29):
propaganda.
And I love it.
I I love seeing people taking a strong position, whether it's for or against things.
But I love, and you know, they're silly things and you know, it's yoga pants to uhpolitical topics.
you know, I love sort of the trends of the day.
And I think those are the huge opportunities, right?

(33:49):
To take what's, why is that happening?
Why are young people feeling like things are propaganda?
Maybe because we're pushing out too many messages that are irrelevant or too many ideasthat aren't resonating with them.
So again, it takes me back to maybe a little less.
a little more responsibly with a little more patience.

(34:09):
I love it.
Well, last question for you.
What do you think is the largest opportunity or threat facing marketers today?
You know, I think one of the biggest challenges for marketers today is the speed ofmarketing.
mean, things have sped up.
So many companies live quarter to quarter results overall else.
And so I think we've created a lot of defense mechanisms.

(34:31):
like to call them FPIs, like fake performance indicators, right?
Cause we need to, we need something to show the CFO, to show the impact of what we do andthink we've got to get back to the ability to measure immediate outcomes, but real ones.
Sales, growth, real immediate outcomes, and then long-term, the value of consumerengagement, loyalty, brand building.

(34:55):
The things that are, I can get you into our fold, you're gonna buy not just two sodas ayear, you're gonna buy two sodas a month, and I can increase that frequency with which you
buy because I'm in your life, and I'm in your community, and I'm in your head.
So I think we've got to admit, a lot of these KPIs and these things we're chasing withthis huge immediacy aren't real.

(35:19):
We've got these amazing KPIs.
Look it, this is up, this is up, this is up, this is up.
no, that was the worst quarter we've had in ages.
And so I think we've got to, again, get back to the ability to measure near-term andlong-term outcomes.
I love it, I love it.
Well, Gail, uh
was fun.
oh

(35:42):
Views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speaker's own and do not represent theviews, thoughts, and opinions of Deloitte.
Material and information presented here is for general information purposes only and doesnot imply endorsement or opposition to any specific company, product, or service.
Hi, it's Alan again.
Marketing Beyond is a Deloitte digital podcast.

(36:03):
It's created and produced by me with post-production support from Sam Robertson.
If you're new to Marketing Beyond, please feel free to write us a review and subscribe onyour favorite listening platform.
also invite you to explore the other Deloitte digital podcast at deloitte digital dot comslash us slash podcast and share the show with your friends and colleagues.

(36:26):
I love hearing from listeners.
can contact me at marketing beyond at Deloitte dot com.
You'll also find complete show notes and links to what's discussed in the podcast today.
and you can search our archives.
I'm Ellen Hart and this is Marketing Beyond.
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