September 24, 2025 • 36 mins
In today’s episode, Alan wraps up our Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity content series with Tati Lindenberg, chief brand officer at Dirt Is Good. Together, they explore global brand strategy for balancing consistency with local relevance, the origin and evolution of the Dirt Is Good brand, and the brand’s deliberate movement through distinct “eras.”
Tati discusses the importance of identifying which parts of the brand are “sacred” and must remain unchanged, versus those elements that can be evolved and iterated to stay culturally relevant. She notes the brand’s intentional move to highlight women athletes as main characters, showing its response to evolving consumer expectations. Drawing on her experiences as a mother and her life across multiple countries, Tati shares how these perspectives have shaped her approach to global brand strategy and her management of a diverse portfolio of brands across regions. As a highly awarded marketer, she offers insights into the role of industry recognition in building high-performing teams. She emphasizes the importance of maintaining brand distinctiveness while encouraging influencer authorship. Tati also reflects on the future of creativity in an artificial intelligence-driven landscape, her concerns about the growing "sea of sameness" in marketing, the dynamics of superfan culture, and the value of taking life a bit less seriously..css-j9qmi7{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-direction:row;-ms-flex-direction:row;flex-direction:row;font-weight:700;margin-bottom:1rem;margin-top:2.8rem;width:100%;-webkit-box-pack:start;-ms-flex-pack:start;-webkit-justify-content:start;justify-content:start;padding-left:5rem;}@media only screen and (max-width: 599px){.css-j9qmi7{padding-left:0;-webkit-box-pack:center;-ms-flex-pack:center;-webkit-justify-content:center;justify-content:center;}}.css-j9qmi7 svg{fill:#27292D;}.css-j9qmi7 .eagfbvw0{-webkit-align-items:center;-webkit-box-align:center;-ms-flex-align:center;align-items:center;color:#27292D;}Mark as PlayedTranscript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Are you ready to go beyond the basics of marketing?
I'm Alan Hart and this is Marketing Beyond, where we talk about the questions that sparkchange and share ideas that challenge the status quo.
Join us as we explore the future of marketing and its endless potential.
(00:32):
Today on the show, I've got Tati Lindenberg.
She's the chief brand officer for Dirt is Good, as well as the head of fabric cleaning atUnilever.
Today on the show, we'll talk about her unique global brand strategy and how to balanceglobal branding with local execution.
We'll also talk about her evolution of the brand into women's sports and how sports playsa critical role in what they're trying to drive with this era of their brand.
(00:55):
We'll also talk about the power of creativity.
And she is one of the most awarded marketers
across all various types of awards that I've ever had on the show.
And we'll talk about what that means to her.
That and much more with Tati Lindenberg.
(01:21):
Welcome to the show.
Thank you.
Well, I know before we get into business we're have a lot of conversation about Dirt isGood and Unilever and all the great things you're doing there.
I hear you started your life in a small Brazilian town.
Tell me more about that.
So I was born in São Paulo.
think most Brazilians nowadays work in advertising somehow came from São Paulo.
(01:42):
So I was born in São Paulo, but I moved to middle of Brazil when I was three and a half,nearly four.
And I spent all my childhood uh in that small town up until I decided to go back to SãoPaulo to go to university.
So it was a very different upbringing compared to the average Brazilians that you mightmeet like outside of Brazil.
(02:05):
but a very rewarding one.
I went to school in Brazil, university in Brazil, and then I started working in a retailerin Brazil, which was an incredible way of starting off a career, because in retailer, it
was kind of the equivalent of waitress, for instance, in the UK.
(02:28):
So it was a big one, but a little bit more premium.
But the advantage of working or starting your career in a retailer is that you need it todeliver fast.
And whatever you do, you know that in 24 hours, you'll be able to understand whether itwas successful or not.
So I think it really creates some sort of like drive and passion to get things right andalso an ability to fix things fast.
(02:54):
So that's how I started off my career.
But I always wanted to live in Europe since I was, I know, since I was like 11, 12.
And one of the reasons why I applied for a job at Unilever is I knew that by working incompany like Unilever, I would have the chance to move to Europe or to move to another
(03:14):
country.
So I still remember that when I joined the company, my line manager at that time asked me,what are your aspirations?
And then...
I basically told her, I just want to live in Europe.
That's pretty much what I want.
But it worked because I was very driven and I understood the paths that I would need to orthe choices I would need to take.
(03:35):
And two years later, I was living in the Netherlands.
So it worked.
No, it definitely worked.
Yeah.
worked.
Well, so from those early beginnings at Unilever, what were the kind of some of themilestones uh to get you where you are today?
You're the chief brand officer for Dirt is Good.
You're also, I think, leading the fabric cleaning business as well.
(03:56):
So what were some of the milestones?
think the first big milestone was obviously moving to Europe and having the opportunity.
I was quite young, I was 26.
Most of my friends were backpacking at that time.
So I remember moving to Europe and having the opportunity of working in a big company likeUnilever.
So that was the first big milestone.
(04:18):
The second one happened when a while after living in the Netherlands, I...
uh
I was working in global position and I worked very close to both the India business andLatin America.
And Unilever needed someone to set up a consumer insight team in India.
And because I was so close to the market, uh I was invited to take on that job, which wasfor me the second big milestone, accepting such a big move again.
(04:47):
Imagine that I moved to India at the time that iPhone was launched.
So the best way that I could engage with my family was Skype.
It was not like today.
I keep saying, like even to my son, was like, today life is easy.
You FaceTime people whenever you want.
Back in the days when I was living in India, I basically needed to go back home, turn onthe laptop, and then call my mom via Skype, and that's the only way.
(05:10):
I remember, I think it was the same year that Facebook became more successful.
I couldn't, people didn't even have the habit of posting things.
So it was like a long, long time ago.
But that was the second big milestone also.
It was in a way a leap of faith and accepting that I could get a bigger job.
But with that, of course, came the challenges of living in Asia.
(05:35):
I was also very young at that time.
I was not even 30 years old.
And then something happened.
I was living in India, very happy about it.
But I knew that I wanted to work in one of the big brands.
And this is when I believed that Dirt is Good somehow showed up to me.
There was a job in there just good in Brazil.
(05:55):
I didn't want to go back to Brazil.
It took me so much to leave, but the line manager at that time said, Tati, you can get thejob, but you need to come back.
So I decided then, okay, the job is more important than the location.
I came back to Sao Paulo and I lived in Sao Paulo for a few years, which at the end workedout beautifully because I also became a mom.
(06:18):
And it was a moment, obviously, I think with most women to think
about priorities, what I wanted out of my career, what I wanted out of my life.
And when I came back from maternity leave, I told my line manager, look, again, I wannalive in Europe.
I know I sounded like a broken record.
(06:39):
But I basically told this line manager, obviously not the same as 10 years before, that Ialso didn't want to bring up my son in Sao Paulo.
So for reasons much more related to
not being the safest city in the world.
And I wanted my son to have the same childhood and upbringing that I had, which was veryfree, very Dirt is Good.
(07:04):
And in fact, the job that I had in Sao Paulo was a Dirt is Good job, so it was my firsttime working in the brand.
I then moved to Europe, moved to the haircare business, so worked in haircare, skincare,and then I came back home and started leading, not home in Sao Paulo, but home as in home
care.
start leading the fabric cleaning business and dirt is good.
(07:25):
So I believe that for me the key milestones were associated to these geographical changesbecause with each of them comes of course change of habits, change of perspective and
obviously being a mom.
So I think this is really what I could summarize in terms of milestones is when bothhabits and perspective change.
(07:50):
Well, talk to me a little bit about the scope of the fabric cleaning business, it's prettylarge.
And it's across many different brands under the umbrella of Dirt is Good, but it's in manydifferent countries as well.
So maybe just speak to a little bit of that.
So, Dirt is Good is the largest laundry brand in the world.
(08:12):
Largest in penetration, not in turnover, but in penetration it is.
So we are in 54 % of all households in the world.
It's big.
And we are distributed across the globe except North America.
the business has, the brand has different names.
(08:33):
So it could be, for instance, named Pursue in the UK or Omo in Brazil, China, Vietnam, orTurkey.
In India, for instance, it's called Surf Excel.
And what is common across all of these brands is the fact that they are all topperformance brands with a premium price, which is usually 20 % higher than the average of
(08:54):
the market.
So what Unilever decided to do a couple of years back is to get all of those
premium laundry brands and bring them together under the Dirt is Good umbrella.
So that is 65 % of what I look after, the Dirt is Good group of top performance brands.
But then there is all the rest and the rest are primarily value brands.
(09:15):
So the fabric cleaning portfolio of Unilever is usually a combination of a Dirt is Goodbrand and a value brand that would vary from one country to the other and they are usually
m brands that are more local and we keep that aspect or that approach of being more localbrands and this is what then composes the entire fabric cleaning portfolio.
(09:38):
Gotcha, and so you've got those local brands, the more value-playing brands, with Dirt isGood and those brands that kind of cut across countries, how do you manage the balance
between, let's say, a global or a multi-country strategy versus local execution?
How do you think about balancing that?
I think there is a difference between the way of managing the Dirt is Good brands and theothers.
(10:03):
So Dirt is Good is a truly global brand despite the different names.
So the way that I manage is by having a very strong central team based in London.
That team crafts and develops all the guardrails of the brand.
So the distinctive brand assets, the anatomy of the brand as we call, how the brand shouldlook like from an aesthetic point of view, sensorious.
(10:26):
what's the tone of voice of the branding, social, and the list goes on.
So the central team then develops these guardrails based on what is relevant in eachcountry.
But then the insights from specific campaigns of products usually are locally, I wouldn'tsay locally led, but they come from the markets.
(10:47):
And then by understanding what the markets need and what we have as a brand, we try tofind a commonality.
And of course I have incredible partners in each and every of the markets.
We work with top 12 directly and with those top 12 markets we have communities, as we callit, Dirties Good Community.
We come together every month to make sure that we not only align the innovation plans butalso the specific campaigns.
(11:12):
And then what happens is we divide and conquer.
Some of the things we execute globally.
So one example, we have a partnership with Arsenal.
football, the football club and that partnership is globally led.
We manage it globally.
But at the same time, India has a partnership with a cricket team.
They manage it locally because it's basically India for India.
(11:35):
So we then decide very, I'd say in the best possible way, what would benefit the most ofthe business.
So that's how I run the Rituz Good with a very strong brand idea, brand essence andguardrails.
And then trying to make sure that we
check the local nuances and distribute who is going to do what.
Of course, I do have what we call do it framework, who decides who owns all the time.
(11:59):
And we keep having to revisit that to make sure that, but in this case, does it make senseor not?
The value brands conversely, the equity of these brands are fully locally led.
So my responsibility with them is to ensure that they have the right resources, the rightinnovation roadmap and investment.
but they are primarily locally led from an equity point of view.
(12:22):
So that's kind of the shift.
With Dirt is Good, I look after both the brand equity and the business.
With the value brands, much more just the business side of things and the equity of thebrand.
Again, the tone of voice, the design, et cetera, would stay with the market.
I have a question about the brand itself.
you got Dirt is Good and how much does like in an execution, how much is it led with Dirtis Good as kind of like that master brand versus the product brand might be Purcell or
(12:53):
whatever.
It's primarily the product name like Homo for instance, or Pessio, primarily.
We use Dirt is Good became many things.
It started as a brand idea and it started 21 years ago.
It was a very counterintuitive idea because at that time most of competitors would alwaysfocus on having clean clothes or they wouldn't tell consumers or people avoid getting
(13:18):
dirty but they wouldn't glorify or celebrate that.
They would always show like, this is the type of performance that you can have.
The whites would get even whiter, et cetera.
So when the idea was created, it was really to try to provoke uh society to an extent tosay that debt that you were somehow avoiding is actually good.
(13:40):
It's physically good, physiologically good, and emotionally good for you.
Of course, it's a metaphor for getting stuck in, making things happen, going outside, andliving life.
Which to be honest, think it's even more important nowadays with the amount of screen timethat we have than 21 years ago.
But Dirt is Good was then became, from a brand idea, became a signature.
(14:04):
In many markets, it is a distinctive brand asset.
So if you go to a market like my country in Brazil, and I say what Omo is, people wouldsay Dirt is Good or SessujafeisBang, which is the just do it for Nike.
So in many countries, consumers recognize the signature.
But we always lead the communication with OMU, PESU, SKIP or Surf Excel.
(14:27):
To be honest, in many countries, people don't know that the brand is a global one.
They believe it's local and we let it be because we don't need it to say it is global.
When beneficial, we do so.
And to be fair, this year was the first time that we've run a campaign which was acombination of PESU in the UK and OMU in Brazil.
(14:50):
And we didn't even know how to show the two brands at this point because it was like, waita minute, do we show Dirt is Good?
Or, but Dirt is Good in English, Dirt is Good in Portuguese.
And then we just use, of course, this technique that we would show Persu and the brandwould flip and become Omu and flip and become Persu.
But we've never, we have never done that before.
So usually it's the local brand name that we lead the communication with.
(15:13):
It's a very interesting brand strategy.
I feel like you're charting a new course for how to potentially manage brand portfolio, ifyou will, in a unified way.
True, I don't think I have much of an option.
to be fair, think this is, uh well, my team and I and uh the president of Home Care and Ihad multiple conversations about is it worth, for instance, combining all the brands under
(15:40):
the same name.
My life would be much easier, for instance, if uh I could lead Dirt As Good as Dove.
Dove is Dove everywhere.
People recognize the brand as such.
But the reality is we were not a one brand that was born in a country and then organicallygrowing across others, rolling it out.
What happened it was a federation of brands that we then decided to bring together.
(16:04):
So when you wait, what would be the value and the return on investment if we tried?
First of all, it's a lot of investment to make people realize this brand is, by the way,now this brand, I've seen this happening and I can count successful cases, but.
more failures.
more failures, exactly.
So we explored that possibility, but then we realized that it's better to find a way tomanage, which is what we've been doing, instead of pushing the brand names across.
(16:33):
Because especially nowadays, we can see that the habits of consumers are becoming moresimilar.
So as long as I can have a innovation roadmap that can be quite, or pretty much the sameacross.
the brand name is irrelevant.
We can put anything and it work.
irrelevant for us, for consumers, it's everything.
(16:54):
Yeah.
Right, right.
Well, so keeping all of the various brands, as well as Dirt is Good fresh, like how do youthink about that?
Because you also want a level of consistency, but you've got to make sure you're stillcutting through, you're still refreshing things.
How do you think about the balance of that?
I used to say that Dirt is Good is managed in eras like Taylor Swift.
(17:15):
So what we do is each kind of like five years, we needed to shift a little bit how weexpress Dirt is Good.
One important thing, and I've been leading the brand for five years, so I've been workingacross two different eras.
And uh what I always say is the idea of Dirt is Good is sacred.
(17:35):
I remember having a line manager who is no longer at Unilever who told me,
Patty, why don't you just leave the signature?
Not every consumer knows and in some markets is more or less relevant.
And I remember telling him, look, the day I do it, I'm killing the brand because that'swhat make the brand unique.
So we will always stand for Dirt is Good.
(17:55):
However, the way in which we, context in which we position Dirt is Good changes.
To be more specific, before I came into the brand, the expression of Dirt is Good was abit of a cheerful one.
So it was all about, for instance, how kids could develop themselves and unleash theirpotential through painting or just going outside, just getting dirty.
(18:20):
But it was much more the idea of dirt being good to unleash creativity.
When I came in, decided to, my team and I, because of the strategy of Unilever at thattime, we decided to talk about dirt is a force for good.
So instead of showing kids doing good for their neighbors, for instance, we would showthem doing good for the planet.
(18:44):
So I changed the context.
The principle was the same.
So imagine that in one advertising in this, era of cheerfulness, I would show a child, oneexample, for instance, even during COVID, painting a rainbow and putting up like on a
window to lighten up like the world.
(19:04):
So that was the cheerfulness era, as we call.
Imagine that I could show that same kid that instead of painting a rainbow, that kid wouldbe collecting plastic on the beach or planting a tree.
So in both situations, the child or in some cases, the adult would get dirty by doingsomething.
The difference is in the first situation, the one benefit from getting dirty was more theindividual.
(19:29):
And the second one was a little bit more collective because it was getting dirty for thegood of the planet.
And then after a few years, as we call around the forest, we now place the kids onto thepitch.
And we started what we call our play on era associated to sport.
so in that era, imagine that again, I'm showing kids or adults getting dirty, but they'regetting dirty through playing sports.
(19:53):
So that's how I manage.
Of course, the choice of each of those areas are always by design.
And we do it in a way that we understand
What are the trends happening out there?
What is the company's strategy as well?
And try to combine those two things to maintain the brand fresh.
So in each of those areas, we evolve a little bit the identity.
(20:16):
So we have one DBA, a distinctive brand asset called the splat.
So the splat is always there, but before the splat was a little bit glowy, then the splatbecame more organic.
Now the splat is white, but it's always the splat.
So that's how I try to do, a few things sacred, be it the signature or the splat, but thenevolve the way that we express or bring it to life.
(20:38):
m
I think following Taylor Swift's strategy is always a winning strategy.
yeah.
Well, you talk about this latest era is sport and women and women's sports are playing abigger and bigger role.
How do you think about it fitting into what you're trying to communicate now?
So in many levels it's extremely important that I've been also trying to evolve the brandto be less focused on only kids and uh appreciating and acknowledge that families are
(21:09):
changing and also trying to center women not only as the mom who is going to wash the kidsor the clothes of their kids, but the mama who is actually a protagonist of the story and
in some cases an athlete.
So from my point of view, the importance of tapping into sport is to show performance andresilience.
(21:31):
But then tapping into women's sport is also a way for me to, after so many years, startshowing women, not as the ones who are doing the laundry, they might be doing, might not
be doing, but the ones who are actually like the protagonist of our campaigns and ourstories.
I love it, I love it.
And there's so many great stories that you're pulling through that as well, just showingthem the grit and the resilience, but also this product works.
(21:56):
gets your stuff clean.
I love it.
Well, one of the things, I think you might be the most awarded, very awarded person to sitin this chair.
I think it's Cleo, Effie, WARC and Cannes So how do you think about...
awards and how they fit into, like what do they mean to you and the teams that you manage?
(22:21):
Two types of awards, I would say.
I think awards like Cannes, they really help to create a culture of creativity within theteam.
We came to Cannes the first time as Dirt is Good four years back, and I remember that noone in home care would even speak about Cannes.
It seemed something that only the Unilever personal care brands or foods like Helmets,Noir, Dove, Vaseline could come.
(22:47):
And we were always like the ugly duckling, like, it's laundry, we should not be there.
But I remember that the first time I decided to come was a decision based on how can Imake sure that my team will be more creative and how can I attract better talents in the
agencies?
Because let's face it, agencies want to win awards and they know that if the brand has abeautiful platform like Dirt is Good, and we are rewarding.
(23:16):
creative agencies with good work, good briefs, and briefs that can win awards.
So it creates a very positive cycle.
And I can see that because the first time we came four years ago, people would, as I said,rarely speak about Cannes.
Nowadays, I have the market saying, Tati, which Cannes campaigns you're going to have?
Can we join you?
(23:36):
Can we execute here or there?
So I can see that it really creates
this culture of creativity.
And then the entire work gets better.
Even the ones that we don't bring to Cannes, naturally they will get better because wehave better agencies, we have better creatives, and we have people paying attention in
advertising before, especially in home care, they wouldn't.
(23:58):
So that is one type of award and the benefits.
The second one, I would say more the effectiveness awards.
Those are important for me and I adore them because it just proves that what we're doingis working.
WARC is an award that I think is the most precious that I ever won.
So, yeah, that's how I see it.
the work and effes are two of my favorite for that very reason.
(24:20):
I never thought about the fact of what you described in terms of like up leveling thetalent, the aspirational aspect of the people working for you for the creativity awards,
but that makes perfect sense.
So kudos.
Well, one of the things we like to do on the show is to get to know you a little bitbetter.
Other than we know you started early in life in Brazil and you had this.
(24:44):
massive desire to get to Europe.
And you're there.
The question I have that I love asking everyone is, has there been an experience of yourpast that defines who you are today?
a field, but there is one that actually defines the choice I've made as in working inadvertising.
I used to say that even within Unilever, but within the industry, at least the people Iknow, I'm one of the few people who actually wanted to study advertising.
(25:15):
I went to university to learn communication, design, media.
I didn't arrive in advertising by accident.
And what happened is, very early on when I was living in this small town, my father usedto distribute Coca-Cola to the northeast of Brazil.
So the city was almost like a gateway to the northeast.
(25:38):
And as a consequence of that, it was a small town and our house and the warehouse ofCoca-Cola, they were kind of like side by side.
So I could, during the day, just go to the warehouse.
My father didn't like me doing that, but I would eventually escape.
And I still remember, I don't know, I was probably 11, 12, and I still remember walking inthe warehouse with those crates of like coke, those beautiful like red ones.
(26:04):
And I don't know, I was fascinated by Coca-Cola.
And then I started seeing obviously, especially in Brazil for me, that was so unique tosee the Coca-Cola ads with the beer and the Christmas ads because obviously imagine that I
was in Brazil, uh and Brazil is a warm country, but.
the city that I was called Gurupi that I was living is even warmer.
(26:24):
So it was like 35 degrees in Christmas Celsius, 35 degrees Celsius.
And I remember seeing it and thinking, which place in the world that you have like polarbears and it's cold over Christmas, which I think it was both the fascination with this,
like the North hemisphere of the world.
And at the same time, fascination with Coke and the brand.
(26:46):
And what I remember, like Coca-Cola used to run promotions, and my father used to get allthe little toys that people would buy, I don't know, five cans, and then you could
exchange.
And he made me also have to buy them, save my pocket money, and then buy 10, for instance,cans to then exchange to these mini Coca-Cola bottles.
(27:09):
I don't know if they were ever available anywhere else in the world.
I was really angry because I could see them all in his office and he wouldn't give it tome no matter what.
em anyways, I learned a hard way that I needed to work hard to earn anything.
But that really, I know it sounds silly, but that really in a way defined who I am.
(27:30):
One, fascination with advertising.
And Coca-Cola has always been one of the companies that I admire the most.
Funny enough, I never applied for a job at Coca-Cola because I feel that I wanted to livein this aura.
I prefer to never touch because I don't want to be disappointed with my own perspective ofCoca-Cola.
(27:51):
But at the same time, because I needed to earn all those goodies and the merch ofCoca-Cola, I've also understood that life doesn't come easy.
And that was really defining for me at a very uh early stage of my life.
I love it.
Well, if you were starting all over again, what advice would you give little Tati?
(28:14):
to take it easy.
think the flip side of what I just said is the fact that I was always so righteous and Iwas always trying to make it work and to work really hard, even sometimes when it was not
required.
I remember that when I started at university, because I wanted to do well, I wanted towork in a really good company, I also wanted to financially help my family.
(28:41):
I went to two parties throughout the four years at university.
And now I look back and I was like, really?
I could have done more, you know, I could have enjoyed more, I could have traveled more.
But I think, well, maybe if I had done that I wouldn't be where I am.
But the reality is, if I look back I would say, just take it easy, Tati.
Don't take life too serious.
(29:02):
Now, with the age I have, I'm like, yeah, maybe it can be fine, I'll take it a bit easy.
But it took me years and years, decades to reach that point.
So few more parties now.
No, I'm still not a big fan, but it's funny because once you don't do it much, get usednot to.
Even here in Cannes, people say, oh, so enjoy, like, dance the night away.
(29:25):
10 o'clock, I'm always sleeping here.
So anyways, no, but at least metaphorically speaking as well, I'm trying to take it more,take it
I like it.
Well, is there a topic either you're trying to learn more about or you think marketers ingeneral need to be learning more about today?
Well, I'm trying to learn more about the availability of tools.
(29:48):
What I mean by that is I used to say that we are living in the age of availability andaffordability.
So again, when I went to university, one of the topics that I was studying is how to takephotos.
Because obviously it was not an easy thing.
You needed to learn exactly how to control the camera, et cetera.
Nowadays,
(30:09):
everything is available.
Anyone can be a photographer.
And this was before AI.
Now anyone can be a copywriter, anyone can write a book.
So I always, I've been trying to learn more and more about the impact of this digitalworld and not necessarily only the machines, not that I'm scared, it's not the point, but
(30:29):
it's more about how AI and all of the technologies nowadays.
are so available to everyone and how they impact creativity.
And I tend to believe that what is happening nowadays is what I call the sea of sameness.
there are many, one example, if you look at beauty brands nowadays compared to a decade orso ago, they now are much more similar because most people prompt the same thing, get the
(30:59):
same output.
So I'm really looking at learning more about humanity.
creativity and the availability of driven by AI.
And associated to that, another thing is to, I'm trying to understand in the future howbrands and influencers will work together.
(31:20):
I strongly believe in sharing authorship.
A couple of years ago, I told my team, power to the people, of course not my quote, but,and I love the idea that you can share authorship, that people.
can actually feel that the brands also belong to them.
But the reality is at one stage when you share authorship to a given level and wheneverybody's doing that, I started to think what would be the aesthetics of brands?
(31:48):
Would it be the aesthetic of TikTok or the aesthetic of the brands themselves?
Because if you look at like the world of TikTok, most influencers show how they use theproducts in the same way.
Well, there are minor differences, but then with time,
Well, you might have seen that when you see presentations with people showing like, smallsnippets of like the products being used on TikTok.
(32:11):
I doubt you can see the difference if you don't pay a lot of attention.
could be dirt is good.
It could be tide.
It could be sunlight.
And they will all look the same because it's no longer the aesthetic and the creative fromthe brands, but from the creators and the influencers.
And I don't have an answer to that, but I'm trying and I'm watching this with a lot ofcuriosity.
(32:33):
how we're gonna make sure that humanity, creativity, ownership of brands, and the overallaesthetics in the future will all combine.
m
I love that.
Are there any trends or subcultures or just things that you're genuinely curious aboutthat you're looking at right now?
Yeah, super fans.
Because since we are at Dirtys Good, we are now in the world of sport.
(32:57):
As I said, we took the kids from the forest, moved them to the pitch.
I'm now trying to learn more about the super fans culture.
And it could be super fans of anything because obviously the way the super fans behave isquite similar, regardless if it's a sport.
So for instance, La bubu is now...
I've been reading about them and trying to understand really because you have hardcorefans of Pop Mart or hardcore fans, for instance, of Taylor Swift, hardcore fans of
(33:26):
Arsenal.
And I'm trying to really tap into what are the insights and what drives people to reallyenjoy like a athlete, personality, brand, whatever it is so much.
So this is for me one key thing I've been watching.
Last question for you.
What do you think is the either largest opportunity or threat facing marketers today?
(33:50):
about the sea of sameness.
I'm really concerned that everybody seems to be doing the same thing.
even when I come to Cannes, I was like, but isn't it the same thing that I've seen before?
And to an extent, I appreciate that world is a reinvention of the past.
I get it.
But I think we got to a point now that if you get the, well, an example from last yearwhen Jaguar released the concept car and everybody was horrified by that car, I was.
(34:21):
But they needed to do that, they needed to go to that extent of, like, I don't even knowhow I can put it, but of breakthrough or weirdness for people to talk about the launch of
a car or a brand.
And what I feel is we got to that point now, which is in equal terms an opportunity,because I believe that we can be as creative as possible, but it's a threat because we
(34:45):
needed to also...
not necessarily a threat, but a challenge that we need to keep asking ourselves.
Are we modern enough?
Are we culturally relevant?
uh Are we compelling enough for consumers?
So that is what I think is in equal terms, both good and bad.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
(35:06):
The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speaker's own and do not represent theviews, thoughts, and opinions of Deloitte.
The material and information presented here is for general information purposes only anddoes not imply endorsement or opposition to any specific company, product, or service.
Hi, it's Alan again.
Marketing Beyond is a Deloitte digital podcast.
(35:27):
It's created and produced by me with close production support from Sam Robertson.
If you're new to Marketing Beyond, please feel free to write us a review and subscribe onyour favorite listening platform.
I also invite you to explore the other Deloitte digital podcast at deloitte digital dotcom slash us slash podcast and share the show with your friends and colleagues.
(35:51):
love hearing from listeners.
can contact me at marketing beyond at Deloitte dot com.
You'll also find complete show notes and links to what's discussed in the podcast today.
we can search our archives.
I'm Alan Hart and this is Marketing Beyond.
Are you ready to go beyond the basics of marketing?
I'm Alan Hart and this is Marketing Beyond, where we talk about the questions that sparkchange and share ideas that challenge the status quo.
Join us as we explore the future of marketing and its endless potential.
(00:32):
Today on the show, I've got Tati Lindenberg.
She's the chief brand officer for Dirt is Good, as well as the head of fabric cleaning atUnilever.
Today on the show, we'll talk about her unique global brand strategy and how to balanceglobal branding with local execution.
We'll also talk about her evolution of the brand into women's sports and how sports playsa critical role in what they're trying to drive with this era of their brand.
(00:55):
We'll also talk about the power of creativity.
And she is one of the most awarded marketers
across all various types of awards that I've ever had on the show.
And we'll talk about what that means to her.
That and much more with Tati Lindenberg.
(01:21):
Welcome to the show.
Thank you.
Well, I know before we get into business we're have a lot of conversation about Dirt isGood and Unilever and all the great things you're doing there.
I hear you started your life in a small Brazilian town.
Tell me more about that.
So I was born in São Paulo.
think most Brazilians nowadays work in advertising somehow came from São Paulo.
(01:42):
So I was born in São Paulo, but I moved to middle of Brazil when I was three and a half,nearly four.
And I spent all my childhood uh in that small town up until I decided to go back to SãoPaulo to go to university.
So it was a very different upbringing compared to the average Brazilians that you mightmeet like outside of Brazil.
(02:05):
but a very rewarding one.
I went to school in Brazil, university in Brazil, and then I started working in a retailerin Brazil, which was an incredible way of starting off a career, because in retailer, it
was kind of the equivalent of waitress, for instance, in the UK.
(02:28):
So it was a big one, but a little bit more premium.
But the advantage of working or starting your career in a retailer is that you need it todeliver fast.
And whatever you do, you know that in 24 hours, you'll be able to understand whether itwas successful or not.
So I think it really creates some sort of like drive and passion to get things right andalso an ability to fix things fast.
(02:54):
So that's how I started off my career.
But I always wanted to live in Europe since I was, I know, since I was like 11, 12.
And one of the reasons why I applied for a job at Unilever is I knew that by working incompany like Unilever, I would have the chance to move to Europe or to move to another
(03:14):
country.
So I still remember that when I joined the company, my line manager at that time asked me,what are your aspirations?
And then...
I basically told her, I just want to live in Europe.
That's pretty much what I want.
But it worked because I was very driven and I understood the paths that I would need to orthe choices I would need to take.
(03:35):
And two years later, I was living in the Netherlands.
So it worked.
No, it definitely worked.
Yeah.
worked.
Well, so from those early beginnings at Unilever, what were the kind of some of themilestones uh to get you where you are today?
You're the chief brand officer for Dirt is Good.
You're also, I think, leading the fabric cleaning business as well.
(03:56):
So what were some of the milestones?
think the first big milestone was obviously moving to Europe and having the opportunity.
I was quite young, I was 26.
Most of my friends were backpacking at that time.
So I remember moving to Europe and having the opportunity of working in a big company likeUnilever.
So that was the first big milestone.
(04:18):
The second one happened when a while after living in the Netherlands, I...
uh
I was working in global position and I worked very close to both the India business andLatin America.
And Unilever needed someone to set up a consumer insight team in India.
And because I was so close to the market, uh I was invited to take on that job, which wasfor me the second big milestone, accepting such a big move again.
(04:47):
Imagine that I moved to India at the time that iPhone was launched.
So the best way that I could engage with my family was Skype.
It was not like today.
I keep saying, like even to my son, was like, today life is easy.
You FaceTime people whenever you want.
Back in the days when I was living in India, I basically needed to go back home, turn onthe laptop, and then call my mom via Skype, and that's the only way.
(05:10):
I remember, I think it was the same year that Facebook became more successful.
I couldn't, people didn't even have the habit of posting things.
So it was like a long, long time ago.
But that was the second big milestone also.
It was in a way a leap of faith and accepting that I could get a bigger job.
But with that, of course, came the challenges of living in Asia.
(05:35):
I was also very young at that time.
I was not even 30 years old.
And then something happened.
I was living in India, very happy about it.
But I knew that I wanted to work in one of the big brands.
And this is when I believed that Dirt is Good somehow showed up to me.
There was a job in there just good in Brazil.
(05:55):
I didn't want to go back to Brazil.
It took me so much to leave, but the line manager at that time said, Tati, you can get thejob, but you need to come back.
So I decided then, okay, the job is more important than the location.
I came back to Sao Paulo and I lived in Sao Paulo for a few years, which at the end workedout beautifully because I also became a mom.
(06:18):
And it was a moment, obviously, I think with most women to think
about priorities, what I wanted out of my career, what I wanted out of my life.
And when I came back from maternity leave, I told my line manager, look, again, I wannalive in Europe.
I know I sounded like a broken record.
(06:39):
But I basically told this line manager, obviously not the same as 10 years before, that Ialso didn't want to bring up my son in Sao Paulo.
So for reasons much more related to
not being the safest city in the world.
And I wanted my son to have the same childhood and upbringing that I had, which was veryfree, very Dirt is Good.
(07:04):
And in fact, the job that I had in Sao Paulo was a Dirt is Good job, so it was my firsttime working in the brand.
I then moved to Europe, moved to the haircare business, so worked in haircare, skincare,and then I came back home and started leading, not home in Sao Paulo, but home as in home
care.
start leading the fabric cleaning business and dirt is good.
(07:25):
So I believe that for me the key milestones were associated to these geographical changesbecause with each of them comes of course change of habits, change of perspective and
obviously being a mom.
So I think this is really what I could summarize in terms of milestones is when bothhabits and perspective change.
(07:50):
Well, talk to me a little bit about the scope of the fabric cleaning business, it's prettylarge.
And it's across many different brands under the umbrella of Dirt is Good, but it's in manydifferent countries as well.
So maybe just speak to a little bit of that.
So, Dirt is Good is the largest laundry brand in the world.
(08:12):
Largest in penetration, not in turnover, but in penetration it is.
So we are in 54 % of all households in the world.
It's big.
And we are distributed across the globe except North America.
the business has, the brand has different names.
(08:33):
So it could be, for instance, named Pursue in the UK or Omo in Brazil, China, Vietnam, orTurkey.
In India, for instance, it's called Surf Excel.
And what is common across all of these brands is the fact that they are all topperformance brands with a premium price, which is usually 20 % higher than the average of
(08:54):
the market.
So what Unilever decided to do a couple of years back is to get all of those
premium laundry brands and bring them together under the Dirt is Good umbrella.
So that is 65 % of what I look after, the Dirt is Good group of top performance brands.
But then there is all the rest and the rest are primarily value brands.
(09:15):
So the fabric cleaning portfolio of Unilever is usually a combination of a Dirt is Goodbrand and a value brand that would vary from one country to the other and they are usually
m brands that are more local and we keep that aspect or that approach of being more localbrands and this is what then composes the entire fabric cleaning portfolio.
(09:38):
Gotcha, and so you've got those local brands, the more value-playing brands, with Dirt isGood and those brands that kind of cut across countries, how do you manage the balance
between, let's say, a global or a multi-country strategy versus local execution?
How do you think about balancing that?
I think there is a difference between the way of managing the Dirt is Good brands and theothers.
(10:03):
So Dirt is Good is a truly global brand despite the different names.
So the way that I manage is by having a very strong central team based in London.
That team crafts and develops all the guardrails of the brand.
So the distinctive brand assets, the anatomy of the brand as we call, how the brand shouldlook like from an aesthetic point of view, sensorious.
(10:26):
what's the tone of voice of the branding, social, and the list goes on.
So the central team then develops these guardrails based on what is relevant in eachcountry.
But then the insights from specific campaigns of products usually are locally, I wouldn'tsay locally led, but they come from the markets.
(10:47):
And then by understanding what the markets need and what we have as a brand, we try tofind a commonality.
And of course I have incredible partners in each and every of the markets.
We work with top 12 directly and with those top 12 markets we have communities, as we callit, Dirties Good Community.
We come together every month to make sure that we not only align the innovation plans butalso the specific campaigns.
(11:12):
And then what happens is we divide and conquer.
Some of the things we execute globally.
So one example, we have a partnership with Arsenal.
football, the football club and that partnership is globally led.
We manage it globally.
But at the same time, India has a partnership with a cricket team.
They manage it locally because it's basically India for India.
(11:35):
So we then decide very, I'd say in the best possible way, what would benefit the most ofthe business.
So that's how I run the Rituz Good with a very strong brand idea, brand essence andguardrails.
And then trying to make sure that we
check the local nuances and distribute who is going to do what.
Of course, I do have what we call do it framework, who decides who owns all the time.
(11:59):
And we keep having to revisit that to make sure that, but in this case, does it make senseor not?
The value brands conversely, the equity of these brands are fully locally led.
So my responsibility with them is to ensure that they have the right resources, the rightinnovation roadmap and investment.
but they are primarily locally led from an equity point of view.
(12:22):
So that's kind of the shift.
With Dirt is Good, I look after both the brand equity and the business.
With the value brands, much more just the business side of things and the equity of thebrand.
Again, the tone of voice, the design, et cetera, would stay with the market.
I have a question about the brand itself.
you got Dirt is Good and how much does like in an execution, how much is it led with Dirtis Good as kind of like that master brand versus the product brand might be Purcell or
(12:53):
whatever.
It's primarily the product name like Homo for instance, or Pessio, primarily.
We use Dirt is Good became many things.
It started as a brand idea and it started 21 years ago.
It was a very counterintuitive idea because at that time most of competitors would alwaysfocus on having clean clothes or they wouldn't tell consumers or people avoid getting
(13:18):
dirty but they wouldn't glorify or celebrate that.
They would always show like, this is the type of performance that you can have.
The whites would get even whiter, et cetera.
So when the idea was created, it was really to try to provoke uh society to an extent tosay that debt that you were somehow avoiding is actually good.
(13:40):
It's physically good, physiologically good, and emotionally good for you.
Of course, it's a metaphor for getting stuck in, making things happen, going outside, andliving life.
Which to be honest, think it's even more important nowadays with the amount of screen timethat we have than 21 years ago.
But Dirt is Good was then became, from a brand idea, became a signature.
(14:04):
In many markets, it is a distinctive brand asset.
So if you go to a market like my country in Brazil, and I say what Omo is, people wouldsay Dirt is Good or SessujafeisBang, which is the just do it for Nike.
So in many countries, consumers recognize the signature.
But we always lead the communication with OMU, PESU, SKIP or Surf Excel.
(14:27):
To be honest, in many countries, people don't know that the brand is a global one.
They believe it's local and we let it be because we don't need it to say it is global.
When beneficial, we do so.
And to be fair, this year was the first time that we've run a campaign which was acombination of PESU in the UK and OMU in Brazil.
(14:50):
And we didn't even know how to show the two brands at this point because it was like, waita minute, do we show Dirt is Good?
Or, but Dirt is Good in English, Dirt is Good in Portuguese.
And then we just use, of course, this technique that we would show Persu and the brandwould flip and become Omu and flip and become Persu.
But we've never, we have never done that before.
So usually it's the local brand name that we lead the communication with.
(15:13):
It's a very interesting brand strategy.
I feel like you're charting a new course for how to potentially manage brand portfolio, ifyou will, in a unified way.
True, I don't think I have much of an option.
to be fair, think this is, uh well, my team and I and uh the president of Home Care and Ihad multiple conversations about is it worth, for instance, combining all the brands under
(15:40):
the same name.
My life would be much easier, for instance, if uh I could lead Dirt As Good as Dove.
Dove is Dove everywhere.
People recognize the brand as such.
But the reality is we were not a one brand that was born in a country and then organicallygrowing across others, rolling it out.
What happened it was a federation of brands that we then decided to bring together.
(16:04):
So when you wait, what would be the value and the return on investment if we tried?
First of all, it's a lot of investment to make people realize this brand is, by the way,now this brand, I've seen this happening and I can count successful cases, but.
more failures.
more failures, exactly.
So we explored that possibility, but then we realized that it's better to find a way tomanage, which is what we've been doing, instead of pushing the brand names across.
(16:33):
Because especially nowadays, we can see that the habits of consumers are becoming moresimilar.
So as long as I can have a innovation roadmap that can be quite, or pretty much the sameacross.
the brand name is irrelevant.
We can put anything and it work.
irrelevant for us, for consumers, it's everything.
(16:54):
Yeah.
Right, right.
Well, so keeping all of the various brands, as well as Dirt is Good fresh, like how do youthink about that?
Because you also want a level of consistency, but you've got to make sure you're stillcutting through, you're still refreshing things.
How do you think about the balance of that?
I used to say that Dirt is Good is managed in eras like Taylor Swift.
(17:15):
So what we do is each kind of like five years, we needed to shift a little bit how weexpress Dirt is Good.
One important thing, and I've been leading the brand for five years, so I've been workingacross two different eras.
And uh what I always say is the idea of Dirt is Good is sacred.
(17:35):
I remember having a line manager who is no longer at Unilever who told me,
Patty, why don't you just leave the signature?
Not every consumer knows and in some markets is more or less relevant.
And I remember telling him, look, the day I do it, I'm killing the brand because that'swhat make the brand unique.
So we will always stand for Dirt is Good.
(17:55):
However, the way in which we, context in which we position Dirt is Good changes.
To be more specific, before I came into the brand, the expression of Dirt is Good was abit of a cheerful one.
So it was all about, for instance, how kids could develop themselves and unleash theirpotential through painting or just going outside, just getting dirty.
(18:20):
But it was much more the idea of dirt being good to unleash creativity.
When I came in, decided to, my team and I, because of the strategy of Unilever at thattime, we decided to talk about dirt is a force for good.
So instead of showing kids doing good for their neighbors, for instance, we would showthem doing good for the planet.
(18:44):
So I changed the context.
The principle was the same.
So imagine that in one advertising in this, era of cheerfulness, I would show a child, oneexample, for instance, even during COVID, painting a rainbow and putting up like on a
window to lighten up like the world.
(19:04):
So that was the cheerfulness era, as we call.
Imagine that I could show that same kid that instead of painting a rainbow, that kid wouldbe collecting plastic on the beach or planting a tree.
So in both situations, the child or in some cases, the adult would get dirty by doingsomething.
The difference is in the first situation, the one benefit from getting dirty was more theindividual.
(19:29):
And the second one was a little bit more collective because it was getting dirty for thegood of the planet.
And then after a few years, as we call around the forest, we now place the kids onto thepitch.
And we started what we call our play on era associated to sport.
so in that era, imagine that again, I'm showing kids or adults getting dirty, but they'regetting dirty through playing sports.
(19:53):
So that's how I manage.
Of course, the choice of each of those areas are always by design.
And we do it in a way that we understand
What are the trends happening out there?
What is the company's strategy as well?
And try to combine those two things to maintain the brand fresh.
So in each of those areas, we evolve a little bit the identity.
(20:16):
So we have one DBA, a distinctive brand asset called the splat.
So the splat is always there, but before the splat was a little bit glowy, then the splatbecame more organic.
Now the splat is white, but it's always the splat.
So that's how I try to do, a few things sacred, be it the signature or the splat, but thenevolve the way that we express or bring it to life.
(20:38):
m
I think following Taylor Swift's strategy is always a winning strategy.
yeah.
Well, you talk about this latest era is sport and women and women's sports are playing abigger and bigger role.
How do you think about it fitting into what you're trying to communicate now?
So in many levels it's extremely important that I've been also trying to evolve the brandto be less focused on only kids and uh appreciating and acknowledge that families are
(21:09):
changing and also trying to center women not only as the mom who is going to wash the kidsor the clothes of their kids, but the mama who is actually a protagonist of the story and
in some cases an athlete.
So from my point of view, the importance of tapping into sport is to show performance andresilience.
(21:31):
But then tapping into women's sport is also a way for me to, after so many years, startshowing women, not as the ones who are doing the laundry, they might be doing, might not
be doing, but the ones who are actually like the protagonist of our campaigns and ourstories.
I love it, I love it.
And there's so many great stories that you're pulling through that as well, just showingthem the grit and the resilience, but also this product works.
(21:56):
gets your stuff clean.
I love it.
Well, one of the things, I think you might be the most awarded, very awarded person to sitin this chair.
I think it's Cleo, Effie, WARC and Cannes So how do you think about...
awards and how they fit into, like what do they mean to you and the teams that you manage?
(22:21):
Two types of awards, I would say.
I think awards like Cannes, they really help to create a culture of creativity within theteam.
We came to Cannes the first time as Dirt is Good four years back, and I remember that noone in home care would even speak about Cannes.
It seemed something that only the Unilever personal care brands or foods like Helmets,Noir, Dove, Vaseline could come.
(22:47):
And we were always like the ugly duckling, like, it's laundry, we should not be there.
But I remember that the first time I decided to come was a decision based on how can Imake sure that my team will be more creative and how can I attract better talents in the
agencies?
Because let's face it, agencies want to win awards and they know that if the brand has abeautiful platform like Dirt is Good, and we are rewarding.
(23:16):
creative agencies with good work, good briefs, and briefs that can win awards.
So it creates a very positive cycle.
And I can see that because the first time we came four years ago, people would, as I said,rarely speak about Cannes.
Nowadays, I have the market saying, Tati, which Cannes campaigns you're going to have?
Can we join you?
(23:36):
Can we execute here or there?
So I can see that it really creates
this culture of creativity.
And then the entire work gets better.
Even the ones that we don't bring to Cannes, naturally they will get better because wehave better agencies, we have better creatives, and we have people paying attention in
advertising before, especially in home care, they wouldn't.
(23:58):
So that is one type of award and the benefits.
The second one, I would say more the effectiveness awards.
Those are important for me and I adore them because it just proves that what we're doingis working.
WARC is an award that I think is the most precious that I ever won.
So, yeah, that's how I see it.
the work and effes are two of my favorite for that very reason.
(24:20):
I never thought about the fact of what you described in terms of like up leveling thetalent, the aspirational aspect of the people working for you for the creativity awards,
but that makes perfect sense.
So kudos.
Well, one of the things we like to do on the show is to get to know you a little bitbetter.
Other than we know you started early in life in Brazil and you had this.
(24:44):
massive desire to get to Europe.
And you're there.
The question I have that I love asking everyone is, has there been an experience of yourpast that defines who you are today?
a field, but there is one that actually defines the choice I've made as in working inadvertising.
I used to say that even within Unilever, but within the industry, at least the people Iknow, I'm one of the few people who actually wanted to study advertising.
(25:15):
I went to university to learn communication, design, media.
I didn't arrive in advertising by accident.
And what happened is, very early on when I was living in this small town, my father usedto distribute Coca-Cola to the northeast of Brazil.
So the city was almost like a gateway to the northeast.
(25:38):
And as a consequence of that, it was a small town and our house and the warehouse ofCoca-Cola, they were kind of like side by side.
So I could, during the day, just go to the warehouse.
My father didn't like me doing that, but I would eventually escape.
And I still remember, I don't know, I was probably 11, 12, and I still remember walking inthe warehouse with those crates of like coke, those beautiful like red ones.
(26:04):
And I don't know, I was fascinated by Coca-Cola.
And then I started seeing obviously, especially in Brazil for me, that was so unique tosee the Coca-Cola ads with the beer and the Christmas ads because obviously imagine that I
was in Brazil, uh and Brazil is a warm country, but.
the city that I was called Gurupi that I was living is even warmer.
(26:24):
So it was like 35 degrees in Christmas Celsius, 35 degrees Celsius.
And I remember seeing it and thinking, which place in the world that you have like polarbears and it's cold over Christmas, which I think it was both the fascination with this,
like the North hemisphere of the world.
And at the same time, fascination with Coke and the brand.
(26:46):
And what I remember, like Coca-Cola used to run promotions, and my father used to get allthe little toys that people would buy, I don't know, five cans, and then you could
exchange.
And he made me also have to buy them, save my pocket money, and then buy 10, for instance,cans to then exchange to these mini Coca-Cola bottles.
(27:09):
I don't know if they were ever available anywhere else in the world.
I was really angry because I could see them all in his office and he wouldn't give it tome no matter what.
em anyways, I learned a hard way that I needed to work hard to earn anything.
But that really, I know it sounds silly, but that really in a way defined who I am.
(27:30):
One, fascination with advertising.
And Coca-Cola has always been one of the companies that I admire the most.
Funny enough, I never applied for a job at Coca-Cola because I feel that I wanted to livein this aura.
I prefer to never touch because I don't want to be disappointed with my own perspective ofCoca-Cola.
(27:51):
But at the same time, because I needed to earn all those goodies and the merch ofCoca-Cola, I've also understood that life doesn't come easy.
And that was really defining for me at a very uh early stage of my life.
I love it.
Well, if you were starting all over again, what advice would you give little Tati?
(28:14):
to take it easy.
think the flip side of what I just said is the fact that I was always so righteous and Iwas always trying to make it work and to work really hard, even sometimes when it was not
required.
I remember that when I started at university, because I wanted to do well, I wanted towork in a really good company, I also wanted to financially help my family.
(28:41):
I went to two parties throughout the four years at university.
And now I look back and I was like, really?
I could have done more, you know, I could have enjoyed more, I could have traveled more.
But I think, well, maybe if I had done that I wouldn't be where I am.
But the reality is, if I look back I would say, just take it easy, Tati.
Don't take life too serious.
(29:02):
Now, with the age I have, I'm like, yeah, maybe it can be fine, I'll take it a bit easy.
But it took me years and years, decades to reach that point.
So few more parties now.
No, I'm still not a big fan, but it's funny because once you don't do it much, get usednot to.
Even here in Cannes, people say, oh, so enjoy, like, dance the night away.
(29:25):
10 o'clock, I'm always sleeping here.
So anyways, no, but at least metaphorically speaking as well, I'm trying to take it more,take it
I like it.
Well, is there a topic either you're trying to learn more about or you think marketers ingeneral need to be learning more about today?
Well, I'm trying to learn more about the availability of tools.
(29:48):
What I mean by that is I used to say that we are living in the age of availability andaffordability.
So again, when I went to university, one of the topics that I was studying is how to takephotos.
Because obviously it was not an easy thing.
You needed to learn exactly how to control the camera, et cetera.
Nowadays,
(30:09):
everything is available.
Anyone can be a photographer.
And this was before AI.
Now anyone can be a copywriter, anyone can write a book.
So I always, I've been trying to learn more and more about the impact of this digitalworld and not necessarily only the machines, not that I'm scared, it's not the point, but
(30:29):
it's more about how AI and all of the technologies nowadays.
are so available to everyone and how they impact creativity.
And I tend to believe that what is happening nowadays is what I call the sea of sameness.
there are many, one example, if you look at beauty brands nowadays compared to a decade orso ago, they now are much more similar because most people prompt the same thing, get the
(30:59):
same output.
So I'm really looking at learning more about humanity.
creativity and the availability of driven by AI.
And associated to that, another thing is to, I'm trying to understand in the future howbrands and influencers will work together.
(31:20):
I strongly believe in sharing authorship.
A couple of years ago, I told my team, power to the people, of course not my quote, but,and I love the idea that you can share authorship, that people.
can actually feel that the brands also belong to them.
But the reality is at one stage when you share authorship to a given level and wheneverybody's doing that, I started to think what would be the aesthetics of brands?
(31:48):
Would it be the aesthetic of TikTok or the aesthetic of the brands themselves?
Because if you look at like the world of TikTok, most influencers show how they use theproducts in the same way.
Well, there are minor differences, but then with time,
Well, you might have seen that when you see presentations with people showing like, smallsnippets of like the products being used on TikTok.
(32:11):
I doubt you can see the difference if you don't pay a lot of attention.
could be dirt is good.
It could be tide.
It could be sunlight.
And they will all look the same because it's no longer the aesthetic and the creative fromthe brands, but from the creators and the influencers.
And I don't have an answer to that, but I'm trying and I'm watching this with a lot ofcuriosity.
(32:33):
how we're gonna make sure that humanity, creativity, ownership of brands, and the overallaesthetics in the future will all combine.
m
I love that.
Are there any trends or subcultures or just things that you're genuinely curious aboutthat you're looking at right now?
Yeah, super fans.
Because since we are at Dirtys Good, we are now in the world of sport.
(32:57):
As I said, we took the kids from the forest, moved them to the pitch.
I'm now trying to learn more about the super fans culture.
And it could be super fans of anything because obviously the way the super fans behave isquite similar, regardless if it's a sport.
So for instance, La bubu is now...
I've been reading about them and trying to understand really because you have hardcorefans of Pop Mart or hardcore fans, for instance, of Taylor Swift, hardcore fans of
(33:26):
Arsenal.
And I'm trying to really tap into what are the insights and what drives people to reallyenjoy like a athlete, personality, brand, whatever it is so much.
So this is for me one key thing I've been watching.
Last question for you.
What do you think is the either largest opportunity or threat facing marketers today?
(33:50):
about the sea of sameness.
I'm really concerned that everybody seems to be doing the same thing.
even when I come to Cannes, I was like, but isn't it the same thing that I've seen before?
And to an extent, I appreciate that world is a reinvention of the past.
I get it.
But I think we got to a point now that if you get the, well, an example from last yearwhen Jaguar released the concept car and everybody was horrified by that car, I was.
(34:21):
But they needed to do that, they needed to go to that extent of, like, I don't even knowhow I can put it, but of breakthrough or weirdness for people to talk about the launch of
a car or a brand.
And what I feel is we got to that point now, which is in equal terms an opportunity,because I believe that we can be as creative as possible, but it's a threat because we
(34:45):
needed to also...
not necessarily a threat, but a challenge that we need to keep asking ourselves.
Are we modern enough?
Are we culturally relevant?
uh Are we compelling enough for consumers?
So that is what I think is in equal terms, both good and bad.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
(35:06):
The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speaker's own and do not represent theviews, thoughts, and opinions of Deloitte.
The material and information presented here is for general information purposes only anddoes not imply endorsement or opposition to any specific company, product, or service.
Hi, it's Alan again.
Marketing Beyond is a Deloitte digital podcast.
(35:27):
It's created and produced by me with close production support from Sam Robertson.
If you're new to Marketing Beyond, please feel free to write us a review and subscribe onyour favorite listening platform.
I also invite you to explore the other Deloitte digital podcast at deloitte digital dotcom slash us slash podcast and share the show with your friends and colleagues.
(35:51):
love hearing from listeners.
can contact me at marketing beyond at Deloitte dot com.
You'll also find complete show notes and links to what's discussed in the podcast today.
we can search our archives.
I'm Alan Hart and this is Marketing Beyond.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.