What if you could know how new creative would perform before you invest in it? This is the exact functionality Adobe's latest creative intelligence tools are working towards.
In today's episode, Alan chats with Ed Kennedy, group product marketing manager at Adobe, to explore their new Generative AI (GenAI) tools. These tools provide a gateway for marketers to scale the impact of GenAI while maintaining the balance between cost efficiency and performance. Ed leads all the go-to-market strategy for Adobe's new GenAI products. This includes GenStudio for Performance Marketing which provides granular insights down t
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Are you ready to go beyond the basics of marketing?
I'm Alan Hart and this is Marketing Beyond, where we talk about the questions that sparkchange and share ideas that challenge the status quo.
Join us as we explore the future of marketing and its endless potential.
(00:28):
kind of how the market has worked, which is we've got a creative cloud and an experiencecloud.
And the marketers use the experience cloud and the creatives use the creative cloud andGenStudio is the first time we're bringing those two groups together so that you're
creating, but you're also analyzing performance and you're publishing ads or emailsdirectly to the channel.
So yes, that functionality is embedded directly within the product so that anyone can seewhat's working and then just immediately initiate a new creative workflow.
(01:03):
Today on the show, we've got Ed Kennedy.
He's a product strategy and product marketing leader at Adobe.
He spent over 15 years in consulting and enterprise software.
He's overseen more than 200 implementations of enterprise marketing and commerce solutionsfor the world's largest brands.
Prior to joining Adobe, Ed was product strategy director at Optimizely and held previousexecutive positions at global consulting firms and creative agencies.
(01:27):
On the show today, we talk about his role at Adobe.
We talk about Gen.ai, the application of it in performance marketing and with their newproduct around Gen Studio.
We talk about how Adobe is creating new functionality they call creative intelligence andwhat that is and AI agents.
You do not want to miss this conversation with Ed Kennedy.
(01:48):
uh
Welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me.
Glad to be here.
Well, it's not every day I get to talk to somebody that is also a yoga instructor.
So, I mean, we talk about marketing and business all the time.
(02:10):
There's not like a huge cross section of marketing.
Okay, that's nice to know.
There's a more of us out there, I'm sure.
Well, like with all good things in a young man's life, it was chasing a woman into a yogastudio, know, it was like first love and it's like, she did yoga.
I'm gonna do yoga.
And then like totally got demolished by the heat and the sweat and it was humbling.
(02:35):
But then I actually found, yeah, I really love this and.
than wanted to teach it, so yeah, it's kind of random, but I definitely try to incorporateit into my work life.
And I love the, I mean it balances you, I would imagine.
and something, like I feel like I need to be more centered in my life, and I'm jealous ofyou.
Well, it's definitely because I need it a lot.
(02:57):
That's why I have to.
It's like I used to take yoga.
Now I definitely have to teach yoga because like, the more that, you know, just corporateAmerica and the speed and pace of work just increases, you do need to have that off cycle
or that down switch where you can actually, you know, turn off the noise or at least tryto.
And yeah, I try to go a couple of times a day or a couple of times a week, excuse me.
(03:21):
Well, from yoga to group product marketing manager, I think I got that right, at Adobe,where'd you get your business start, if I should say?
Yeah, I I spent a lot of time working at agencies, systems integrators, building andimplementing large scale commerce websites or CMS implementation.
(03:45):
So I worked with retailers and CPG companies to implement the digital experience platform,whatever that means.
So I did a lot of like owned media channels for about 10 years.
And then I affectionately came to the
Darkside came to software companies themselves.
I miss working directly with clients uh as much as maybe you do on the field.
(04:10):
So yeah, then I went over to uh EpiServer, which then bought Optimizely and then they sortof rebranded to a CMS with A-B testing and all their capabilities and then came over to
Adobe.
That's amazing.
So what is the scope of your role at Adobe today?
I lead all the go-to-market strategy for the new GEN.AI product that we launched, which isGEN Studio for Performance Marketing.
(04:36):
That's an app that lets marketing and creative teams create their own ads and emails.
And it's kind one of the first steps into having people self-serve their own contentrather than just kind of getting in line with agencies or the in-house studio team.
yeah, it's all about working with the agency partners and with our brands to start to rollout GEN.AI at scale.
(04:59):
Well, I mean, you're at the nexus of everything marketers are talking about right now.
Yeah.
In terms of GEN.AI, how to drive performance, advertising performance.
How do you think about that in today's era?
it's still the wild, wild west, and it's still relatively new.
So I imagine it's a lot of change management as well.
(05:19):
Yeah, there's so much that people are still trying to figure out about how to usegenerative AI.
Like, I think we were all amazed at what ChatGPT did when it first came out or evenFirefly with Image Generation.
Like, it was pretty impressive.
But then when you try to apply that logically to how is that actually going to show up ina marketing campaign or in an email, that's when brand leaders get a lot more skeptical.
(05:45):
It's like, can this really create on-brand content?
You can enter a prompt and get some text back or you can put in a prompt and get an image.
But would you ever use that on your main brand social channels or your email?
And the answer for the last year and a half has been a resounding no.
And that's why everyone's been so sort of skeptical and passive.
So it's not just about bolting generative AI into your tool set.
(06:08):
It's really about making sure that you're training these models so that they can actuallywrite for you and create for you.
And that's what
When we're working with leaders, they have to really start to wrap their head around andstart to trust that this can work.
And they still want their hands on the levers and dials.
They want to be able to do the final approvals on all content coming through.
(06:30):
So we're big on AI created, human perfected in all of the go-to-market messaging thatwe're bringing out and helping CMOs understand they can do this.
Well, and I talked to clients a lot and to your point there's a lot of They don't want itto run free yet.
Yes, and and so but it it also seems like there are some easy Quote-unquote easy use casesin terms of versioning Yes things that are natural and gonna have to happen within the
(06:58):
digital performance media space in particular Is that like where you guys started as well?
Yeah, mean, just like chat GPT sort of showed us that we could get rid of some routinemundane tasks or maybe offload something mentally to chat GPT to give us back the
analysis.
The same thing is starting with generative AI.
(07:19):
It's like, what are the low value, repetitive, mundane tasks in the creative process thatwe can give to generative AI and then have humans review and approve?
And so
When it comes to creative production of ads or emails or web content, the vast majority ofall the content that's needed is versions of some core asset.
(07:42):
So we want the agencies and design teams to still create core visuals.
I don't see that being 90 % generative AI led and then 10 % review and approval.
It's really the 90 % of all the versions.
I need a different version of this email for this target audience or this language or...
this strategy, this product, and that's what AI can take the first round at.
(08:05):
And then you can start to iterate.
So it's really about starting with versioning and just getting some of that low valuerepetitive task off everyone's plate.
It does seem that you mentioned this, know, the agencies still need to do their part, butI'm also seeing like a re-evaluation of the operating model, right?
Like where does the work get done for what pieces of the supply chain or the contentsupply chain, if you will.
(08:31):
Is that what you're seeing as well?
I mean, there's no right or wrong yet.
Like there's no perfect way to do it, but I do see people shifting, altering, tweaking theoperating model to try to get those efficiencies.
think there is definitely a lot of questions being asked by CMOs who own a large agencybudget for either creative production or media planning.
(08:53):
What role does my agency play now in using generative AI?
Do they bring it to me and I just outsource to them like I always have and partner withthem?
Or am I going to catch kind of that in-house studio model that so many CMOs are startingto build some sort of smaller in-house studio?
(09:13):
that does their own creative, and maybe they still partner with agencies, but that powerdynamic between brands and agencies is real, and it's been going on before Generative AI
came along, but now Generative AI is like another reason to reevaluate.
So I would say in about half of my conversations with brands, the directive is we'respending X with our agencies, I need to take it to X minus 10 to 20%.
(09:40):
And so they are thinking cost savings either through the agency spend or the media buyingitself, the actual ad tech spending.
So, but in the other half, they're thinking, I'll just have my agency use this.
Let's make, let's increase output and increase performance.
I don't think there's a right or wrong way, but the macro economic environment currentlykind of is leaning us more towards fixed budgets, cost savings.
(10:06):
And so I think that creates some tension in the system that we have to help our agencypartners resolve.
And so we're going to work with both sides of that equation, but ultimately lead to whatthe brand is looking for us.
I mean the great thing about Adobe is that you guys you serve both sides of the marketalready.
It's natural You're also in the you know the genesis of the company was on the creativeside as well And so now you're getting to apply that at scale ah How do you think about?
(10:38):
scaling the impact that a gen AI gen studio type solution could have at a client like arethere gateways to better performance if you will
There absolutely are.
I we'll go as fast as a brand wants to be ambitious and has risk tolerance.
we're we're trying to make the elephants run.
You the biggest brands in the world are all in piloting mode still, you know, but we dohave some customers that we're working with right now that are really starting to move
(11:06):
quickly.
So the way we start to look at our projects to scale generative AI is based on thechannels that they're going to focus on.
So a lot of times there's a performance marketing team that runs
paid social or display ads.
And we work just with that team in one country to scale up versioning using generative AI.
But really the email team in that country or the web marketing team in that country alsocan benefit.
(11:29):
And then if you think globally, that's where you really start to scale.
So we're going kind of channel by channel, region by region right now.
But we do have some ambitious brands who have a top-down directive for generative AI.
And they're going all in, kind of all at once.
And it's really about then how do you train people how to prompt better?
(11:50):
How do you optimize the workflow so that you can actually see the increased output inversions?
It's one thing just to throw generative AI at the problem.
It's another thing to actually have it materially impact the volume of content you'reproducing, because the theory is more content equals better performance.
We are seeing that born out in our data, but you actually have to get there for it towork.
(12:12):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and the promise of personalization, Gen.
AI is one huge lever to be able to get to that one-to-one holy grail that I guess we'reall trying to get to.
And that gets to your earlier point about the balance, if you will, between costefficiency versus performance.
(12:33):
And how can I drive performance maybe with better personalization, but also at the sametime do it in an efficient way?
Yeah, like in our email campaigns that we're running through Gen Studio, the budget isn'tnecessarily going down for email spend.
It's not necessarily a direct spend on email, and companies have usually sort of set uptheir systems to send as many as they need to to the size of lists they have.
(12:56):
So in those cases, we are seeing very much the focus on improved click-through rates,improved open rates, improved engagement rates, and so that's where we're seeing more
content equals more performance, but on the...
paid media side, there is definitely a desire from the brands to optimize their spend,whether that's with the agency or with the ad platforms themselves, and just achieve their
(13:17):
goals faster.
So Adobe's got some new functionality called Creative Intelligence.
What is that?
It sounds cool.
I think that's it.
As a product marketer, thank you.
Yes, we do try to make things sound cool, but also have them be useful.
What we've been able to do is take in historical ad uh units from a brand's paid mediasite.
(13:38):
uh So like if they're advertising on Meta or on Google, we can bring in and ingest all oftheir ads.
And then we use computer vision, use artificial intelligence to tag that image or thatvideo with all of its attributes.
And when you bring that tagging,
against all your ads into a reporting system, you get a different piece of informationback, which is what parts of my creative are performing better or worse with certain
(14:05):
audiences.
So it stops being about, well, did this ad work for this channel or at this time or forthis promotion or for this product?
It starts being more about, does blue work in this audience?
Does dark backgrounds do pictures of cake?
Like that's one of the famous ones from our work is our own marketing team uses thisfeature in Gen Studio and they found out that pictures of cake resonated with, mean,
(14:34):
wouldn't want to see some cake, you know, like on a YouTube roll or, you know, like aFacebook ad.
But it really did, without that tagging and tying it to revenue, you wouldn't necessarilykick off a new creative round to go make more cake.
A lot of creative teams want to try something new.
They don't necessarily want to go back and repeat, let's just do a bunch of cakes.
(14:55):
But when you can objectively say cakes perform better than phone booths, our next adshould feature food, at least.
Let's try food, and let's scale that to other regions.
Another example is when the Olympics happened, there was all of this football or soccercontent that Adobe was putting out there.
And then they repurposed that for their Brazil market.
(15:18):
And it just really was
It showed how quickly, you can look at the performance of the ad itself on the content orcreative level, you can quickly double down in what's working and turn off what's not
working.
And I think that's where we're saving our clients' spend is we're just not putting dollarsbehind bad creative uh or just underperforming creative.
(15:41):
Does that work hand-in-hand with the GEN Studio stuff that we were just talking about?
Does that data help feed into the GEN Studio?
Yes, that's actually the entire vision for this product is that we're bringing, know,Adobe reflects kind of how the market has worked, which is we've got a creative cloud and
an experience cloud and the marketers use the experience cloud and the creatives use thecreative cloud and GenStudio is the first time we're bringing those two groups together so
(16:10):
that you're creating, but you're also analyzing performance and you're publishing ads oremails directly to the channel.
So yes, that functionality is embedded directly within the product so that
anyone can see what's working and then just immediately initiate a new creative workflow.
Our ultimate vision is that you should actually be able to score your creative before itships if it actually is going to perform well and then also use those attributes to inform
(16:38):
the next time you use Firefly.
So if you're going to ask for an image or a short five second video, you should just beable to reference, well, these are the attributes that are performing well with my target
audience.
Let's create
videos or ads off of that.
That's awesome.
mean, the thing of bringing those teams together, the performance marketers and thecreative marketers with a better intelligence around it is pretty cool.
(17:04):
And the fact that I do a lot of work in analyzing media effectiveness, right?
And the one thing that we always forget with those models is that creative actually winsthe day.
Creative carries the day.
Yeah, it's the biggest contributor to incremental sales.
It's like, yes, reach, relevancy, audience, it all matters.
(17:26):
But I mean, we all know as consumers, when we receive content that's not a fit for us, weget ad fatigue.
We scroll, we skip, we don't engage, we disengage from that brand.
so creative is so important.
But it's really interesting to watch a creative professional start to be exposed to thelife of a marketer.
(17:47):
and watch them almost squirm and seeing their creative performance broken down into littleattributes of like, well, you chose to put a cake or a phone booth, like that worked or
didn't work.
But equally, marketers are having to take a role in the creative process.
Now it's time for marketers to actually take that ownership of it's not just about speedsand feeds or just about my audience segmentation, you know, or my ROAS.
(18:12):
I actually need to think about what
message is going to resonate with my audience rather than just throwing a lot of differentideas against the wall.
I call that marketing with a big Exactly.
That's marketing with a little Yeah.
grown-up marketing.
Well, I know you've also got a new beta around AI agents in this process.
(18:36):
So tell me a little bit about how that works.
Yeah, it's something we're really excited about.
mean, full disclosure, we're definitely jumping on the agent bandwagon.
Like everybody's got to have an agent and we have one too.
In fact, Adobe is launching tons of agents right now.
But I think where we're trying to stay pragmatic to what the customers and brands need usto do is we've shown them Gen Studio where you can enter a prompt and get back copy and or
(19:00):
enter a prompt and get back an image.
Like that's great for like that one channel that one time.
But what if I have a brief?
that is the genesis of my entire marketing campaign.
It's got the goals, the personas, the channels, the products, the spend.
I want to feed all that context of the campaign into an agent and have it start giving meiterations of a campaign idea.
(19:26):
And that's what this agent does.
It gives you three to five different campaign directions and starts drafting ads or emailsbased off of those concepts that you select.
We're trying to get to a place, and I think we will get there this year, where the briefbecomes the new prompt.
So instead of entering a prompt to get content, you submit your brief, and the agentstarts working for you, and you interact with it from there.
(19:51):
That's fascinating.
mean, the new creative team could be these agents, if you will.
Yeah, I saw someone on socials recently talking about this idea of like a marketingengineer.
It is basically this person that is really governing AI and overseeing how Gen.ai and theagents that power them are actually delivering on the scope of work rather than like this
(20:20):
kind of separation of, this is what I do and this is what AI does.
It's sort of like.
the marketing team is actually overseeing all these tools.
m
That's a good way to put it, and it makes me think of like the, I'm gonna date myself, butyou when we moved from like print ads to like web.
And there was this transition of interactive people.
(20:42):
Exactly.
They were all the interactive designer.
Yeah, and now it's just you're a designer.
Because you do web and you do print or you don't do it anymore.
there's definitely, yeah, and I see that true with like marketing analysts.
I think that role of a marketing analyst that's deep in data is a really good persona foradopting generative AI.
(21:04):
And that's what we've had to do with Gen Studios.
We've had to find the evangelists that really love and are interested in generative AI todo the first pilot.
That's back to the scaling issue.
That's actually the hardest part is finding the right people inside of an organizationthat get it and are passionate about generative AI, even outside of their work.
(21:25):
They use chat GPT regularly or they're just, creative in some way.
And then there's a second wave that is really where the work begins, which is what we callthe conscripts.
It's when the brand team says, all of you in this marketing department are now going tolearn generative AI and we're totally changing the way you work.
And it feels a bit threatening.
That's where.
(21:46):
scaling to production happens or it doesn't is in that second wave.
The people that love it, they adopt it.
But the people that are a little bit skeptical or nervous, they're the ones that can makethat project fail or soar.
Well, it's been fun talking about business and Gen.
AI.
Thanks, Sam.
I want to step back and have a couple other questions I ask everyone that comes on theshow.
(22:08):
My first one is my favorite question to ask.
has there ever been an experience of your past that defines or makes up who you are today?
Yeah, I mean, I think if we slow down enough and reflect, there are probably key things.
I did a lot of personal work in my early 20s, a lot of personal development, and I learnedhow much our lives are governed by stories and by narratives, and that's why marketing
(22:38):
exists.
The reason that we connect with brands in marketing is because there's a narrative behindthe ad.
there's some idea that resonates with us.
And I discovered when I was younger that I was kind of playing out a story that wassomeone else's story or was like society's story about like what it means to like have a
(22:59):
career, you know, like life was about working really hard and like getting married andhaving kids.
And then like, and I remember realizing like, and I said at the end of that sentence, andthen I'll be happy, you know, like there's this like, there's this story about
humanity that I'm included in, like that you just work really hard, you kind of play thegame, and then at the end of it there's some reward.
(23:24):
And I kind of realized how ridiculous that is, and how like it's not, that's not true.
That's just a story that I say and that we say.
And so I think that had a really profound effect on like in my 20s, and I do still workhard.
I still have a wife and kids.
(23:46):
But the whole context is different.
It's just really about, you doing meaningful work?
And you've seen probably, or lots of people have seen, the surveys of people who are nearthe end of their lives who the biggest thing that they deal with is regret of what they
didn't do or the chances they didn't take.
(24:06):
And I think that really hit home when I was younger.
And I've tried to stay true to that, even in a corporate.
world where yeah, I still need a paycheck.
I still need to pay for the mortgage, but like have it be meaningful rather than just be achase or a race.
And I think that was like a big moment when I was younger.
that notion and you know I've been caught up in the rat race I would describe that in myown terms and you know making sure you can enjoy the ride along the way I think is what
(24:38):
you get you know
only get the ride.
It's like when you go to the...
That's all you get in life is you get to go on the coaster and then you get off.
The ride is the experience.
That's the life.
And I think now, like in approaching, I guess, middle age, where you start to see, I'mkind of sandwiched between not being as young as I used to be, having older kids, and then
(25:01):
having aging parents.
Like you start to really feel just that time.
uh
the timeless nature of the present moment and actually being able to enjoy.
And so, yeah, I spend more time FaceTiming with my kids and try to connect with peoplerather than the work.
And I think that's what AI or generative AI can't mimic.
(25:23):
And that's why humans need to run marketing.
That's why when I talk to marketing leaders and they're concerned about AI taking theirjobs, I'm like, well, where's the humanity?
Is marketing, are robots gonna sell to robots?
If that's the case, then we're in trouble.
But if we're gonna stay in a paradigm where marketers are marketing to consumers or tobusinesses, then the humans are gonna be in the driving seat and it's just about scale.
(25:52):
Gotcha.
Well, if you were starting this journey all over again, what advice would you giveyourself, your younger self?
uh That's a good question.
I think it's the advice that I try to give myself now, which is, like, don't take yourselftoo seriously.
Like, I can kind of, my wife calls me intense.
(26:13):
And that's like the nicest way that she says it, you know?
She's like, you're intense.
uh And it's true, and I am, and that comes from a good place, but I also like, try, I haveto really remind myself to not take myself too seriously.
And also, like, I think,
Part of my story of seeing that kind of life arc that we all kind of subscribe to inWestern culture and kind of letting that go was also just the expectations.
(26:40):
That I have to be perfect or I have to do it right, right away.
And I think I would want my younger self to know that it's gonna be okay.
And that don't take yourself too seriously and enjoy the ride and give myself some.
compassion or some empathy for the hard moments that we've experienced.
(27:00):
think we all kind of suck up in corporate America and it's about the work and it's aboutthe performance and it's about the revenue or it's about the results.
And sometimes it's really not about the people and it's like, can we get back to that andjust enjoy the time that we have together in the work we get to do.
Well, is there a topic either you're trying to learn more about or you think marketersneed to be learning more about today?
(27:23):
I mean, obviously, generative AI is the go-to, of course.
If you're not, go to firefly.adobe.com, enter a prompt.
Just try and see.
Have that connection to prompting for results.
Use Chat GPT.
Start to get familiar with what your life as a future marketer will be.
(27:43):
So that's definitely like.
And we have what we call Gen Studio Academy, where we take people through a self-directedcourse on prompting.
So prompting's definitely.
a big one.
But like personally back to this whole like what life you know what matters in life islike I've definitely gotten into like the financial independence retire early the fire
(28:05):
movement.
I'm not like a fire person like there are people that go to conferences but I'vedefinitely like I'm definitely trying to play a different game these days and I wish
marketers were like and just corporate employees were just a little bit more forwardlooking.
on their financial health and their financial future so that they don't feel like theyhave to work themselves into the ground just to make a paycheck.
(28:32):
So like just taking some of that personal power back into your own life and career is whatI'm passionate about and I guess would want others to be too.
That's awesome.
Is there anything that you're curious about?
Could it be a macro trend or something very niche?
Just curious what you're curious about.
I mean, the whole emergence of video generation is really fascinating because it's gotthat new wow factor to it.
(28:57):
Like we just launched video generation in beta at Adobe.
And it's so cool.
Like it is so amazing.
So I'm definitely like geeking out on like, you could take a picture of a brand campaignand give it to Firefly and it will create a video.
Like that's.
That's blowing the mind.
This is being filmed right now.
And so like that's probably where people start to freak out.
(29:19):
It's like, oh, like you could just take an image and like you don't need to film anythinganymore.
I know it's probably not going to be the case, but it's just about how do we work withthat technology?
Like I want to get that in the hands as many of my customers as possible.
It's just like trying the video models that we have is just so, so cool.
It's fascinating to me how some of those tools can almost create entire worlds that you'reliving, not living in, you're immersed in.
(29:49):
Well, there's going to be a time pretty soon where like, and what will happen when there'san Oscar nominated short film that was completely made by one person and AI, like where
the entire thing was just made on a machine or like those are the futures we're going tostart.
Those are now within reach.
(30:11):
Or you can imagine that that could be possible.
And that's pretty cool to sort of imagine how that's going to disrupt really allindustries ah as we move forward.
Well, last question for you.
What do you think is the largest opportunity or threat facing marketers today?
I think the biggest threat or like, yeah, the personal risk to any individual in marketingis to be cynical about generative AI and to like, and to sit on the sidelines and wait it
(30:39):
out.
Like when the internet came out, there were skeptics and there's some famous quotes ofpeople saying like in the nineties, like, the internet, that thing's going up in smoke.
like, and that, you know, you could point to like the metaverse.
like a couple years ago is like that hype cycle that everyone saw the metaverse, but thatrequired us to change our form factor and put on technology that just isn't there yet.
(31:04):
Glasses, headwear just isn't there yet for metaverse, but I think it will.
But generative AI fits right now in your form function.
Like how do you work?
You sit at a desk, you work with a phone, you use a laptop.
Like that fits your way of working.
And so if you're on the sidelines waiting for generative AI to come work,
on you, you're going to miss the opportunity of shaping how it transforms your business.
(31:28):
I would be concerned of hearing any marketer say, I'm not even interested in tryinggenerative AI because it is just going to be so revolutionary.
Ed, thank you for coming on the show.
Thanks for having me.
I don't think I've ever been so centered, yet thinking about the future all at the sametime.
That's the idea, right?
You should come take a yoga class one day.
(31:50):
Thank you.
Thank you so much, Al.
It good to be here.
The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speaker's own and do not represent theviews, thoughts, and opinions of Deloitte.
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(32:12):
Hi, it's Alan again.
Marketing Beyond is a Deloitte digital podcast.
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(32:40):
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I'm Ellen Hart and this is Marketing Beyond.
Are you ready to go beyond the basics of marketing?
I'm Alan Hart and this is Marketing Beyond, where we talk about the questions that sparkchange and share ideas that challenge the status quo.
Join us as we explore the future of marketing and its endless potential.
(00:28):
kind of how the market has worked, which is we've got a creative cloud and an experiencecloud.
And the marketers use the experience cloud and the creatives use the creative cloud andGenStudio is the first time we're bringing those two groups together so that you're
creating, but you're also analyzing performance and you're publishing ads or emailsdirectly to the channel.
So yes, that functionality is embedded directly within the product so that anyone can seewhat's working and then just immediately initiate a new creative workflow.
(01:03):
Today on the show, we've got Ed Kennedy.
He's a product strategy and product marketing leader at Adobe.
He spent over 15 years in consulting and enterprise software.
He's overseen more than 200 implementations of enterprise marketing and commerce solutionsfor the world's largest brands.
Prior to joining Adobe, Ed was product strategy director at Optimizely and held previousexecutive positions at global consulting firms and creative agencies.
(01:27):
On the show today, we talk about his role at Adobe.
We talk about Gen.ai, the application of it in performance marketing and with their newproduct around Gen Studio.
We talk about how Adobe is creating new functionality they call creative intelligence andwhat that is and AI agents.
You do not want to miss this conversation with Ed Kennedy.
(01:48):
uh
Welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me.
Glad to be here.
Well, it's not every day I get to talk to somebody that is also a yoga instructor.
So, I mean, we talk about marketing and business all the time.
(02:10):
There's not like a huge cross section of marketing.
Okay, that's nice to know.
There's a more of us out there, I'm sure.
Well, like with all good things in a young man's life, it was chasing a woman into a yogastudio, know, it was like first love and it's like, she did yoga.
I'm gonna do yoga.
And then like totally got demolished by the heat and the sweat and it was humbling.
(02:35):
But then I actually found, yeah, I really love this and.
than wanted to teach it, so yeah, it's kind of random, but I definitely try to incorporateit into my work life.
And I love the, I mean it balances you, I would imagine.
and something, like I feel like I need to be more centered in my life, and I'm jealous ofyou.
Well, it's definitely because I need it a lot.
(02:57):
That's why I have to.
It's like I used to take yoga.
Now I definitely have to teach yoga because like, the more that, you know, just corporateAmerica and the speed and pace of work just increases, you do need to have that off cycle
or that down switch where you can actually, you know, turn off the noise or at least tryto.
And yeah, I try to go a couple of times a day or a couple of times a week, excuse me.
(03:21):
Well, from yoga to group product marketing manager, I think I got that right, at Adobe,where'd you get your business start, if I should say?
Yeah, I I spent a lot of time working at agencies, systems integrators, building andimplementing large scale commerce websites or CMS implementation.
(03:45):
So I worked with retailers and CPG companies to implement the digital experience platform,whatever that means.
So I did a lot of like owned media channels for about 10 years.
And then I affectionately came to the
Darkside came to software companies themselves.
I miss working directly with clients uh as much as maybe you do on the field.
(04:10):
So yeah, then I went over to uh EpiServer, which then bought Optimizely and then they sortof rebranded to a CMS with A-B testing and all their capabilities and then came over to
Adobe.
That's amazing.
So what is the scope of your role at Adobe today?
I lead all the go-to-market strategy for the new GEN.AI product that we launched, which isGEN Studio for Performance Marketing.
(04:36):
That's an app that lets marketing and creative teams create their own ads and emails.
And it's kind one of the first steps into having people self-serve their own contentrather than just kind of getting in line with agencies or the in-house studio team.
yeah, it's all about working with the agency partners and with our brands to start to rollout GEN.AI at scale.
(04:59):
Well, I mean, you're at the nexus of everything marketers are talking about right now.
Yeah.
In terms of GEN.AI, how to drive performance, advertising performance.
How do you think about that in today's era?
it's still the wild, wild west, and it's still relatively new.
So I imagine it's a lot of change management as well.
(05:19):
Yeah, there's so much that people are still trying to figure out about how to usegenerative AI.
Like, I think we were all amazed at what ChatGPT did when it first came out or evenFirefly with Image Generation.
Like, it was pretty impressive.
But then when you try to apply that logically to how is that actually going to show up ina marketing campaign or in an email, that's when brand leaders get a lot more skeptical.
(05:45):
It's like, can this really create on-brand content?
You can enter a prompt and get some text back or you can put in a prompt and get an image.
But would you ever use that on your main brand social channels or your email?
And the answer for the last year and a half has been a resounding no.
And that's why everyone's been so sort of skeptical and passive.
So it's not just about bolting generative AI into your tool set.
(06:08):
It's really about making sure that you're training these models so that they can actuallywrite for you and create for you.
And that's what
When we're working with leaders, they have to really start to wrap their head around andstart to trust that this can work.
And they still want their hands on the levers and dials.
They want to be able to do the final approvals on all content coming through.
(06:30):
So we're big on AI created, human perfected in all of the go-to-market messaging thatwe're bringing out and helping CMOs understand they can do this.
Well, and I talked to clients a lot and to your point there's a lot of They don't want itto run free yet.
Yes, and and so but it it also seems like there are some easy Quote-unquote easy use casesin terms of versioning Yes things that are natural and gonna have to happen within the
(06:58):
digital performance media space in particular Is that like where you guys started as well?
Yeah, mean, just like chat GPT sort of showed us that we could get rid of some routinemundane tasks or maybe offload something mentally to chat GPT to give us back the
analysis.
The same thing is starting with generative AI.
(07:19):
It's like, what are the low value, repetitive, mundane tasks in the creative process thatwe can give to generative AI and then have humans review and approve?
And so
When it comes to creative production of ads or emails or web content, the vast majority ofall the content that's needed is versions of some core asset.
(07:42):
So we want the agencies and design teams to still create core visuals.
I don't see that being 90 % generative AI led and then 10 % review and approval.
It's really the 90 % of all the versions.
I need a different version of this email for this target audience or this language or...
this strategy, this product, and that's what AI can take the first round at.
(08:05):
And then you can start to iterate.
So it's really about starting with versioning and just getting some of that low valuerepetitive task off everyone's plate.
It does seem that you mentioned this, know, the agencies still need to do their part, butI'm also seeing like a re-evaluation of the operating model, right?
Like where does the work get done for what pieces of the supply chain or the contentsupply chain, if you will.
(08:31):
Is that what you're seeing as well?
I mean, there's no right or wrong yet.
Like there's no perfect way to do it, but I do see people shifting, altering, tweaking theoperating model to try to get those efficiencies.
think there is definitely a lot of questions being asked by CMOs who own a large agencybudget for either creative production or media planning.
(08:53):
What role does my agency play now in using generative AI?
Do they bring it to me and I just outsource to them like I always have and partner withthem?
Or am I going to catch kind of that in-house studio model that so many CMOs are startingto build some sort of smaller in-house studio?
(09:13):
that does their own creative, and maybe they still partner with agencies, but that powerdynamic between brands and agencies is real, and it's been going on before Generative AI
came along, but now Generative AI is like another reason to reevaluate.
So I would say in about half of my conversations with brands, the directive is we'respending X with our agencies, I need to take it to X minus 10 to 20%.
(09:40):
And so they are thinking cost savings either through the agency spend or the media buyingitself, the actual ad tech spending.
So, but in the other half, they're thinking, I'll just have my agency use this.
Let's make, let's increase output and increase performance.
I don't think there's a right or wrong way, but the macro economic environment currentlykind of is leaning us more towards fixed budgets, cost savings.
(10:06):
And so I think that creates some tension in the system that we have to help our agencypartners resolve.
And so we're going to work with both sides of that equation, but ultimately lead to whatthe brand is looking for us.
I mean the great thing about Adobe is that you guys you serve both sides of the marketalready.
It's natural You're also in the you know the genesis of the company was on the creativeside as well And so now you're getting to apply that at scale ah How do you think about?
(10:38):
scaling the impact that a gen AI gen studio type solution could have at a client like arethere gateways to better performance if you will
There absolutely are.
I we'll go as fast as a brand wants to be ambitious and has risk tolerance.
we're we're trying to make the elephants run.
You the biggest brands in the world are all in piloting mode still, you know, but we dohave some customers that we're working with right now that are really starting to move
(11:06):
quickly.
So the way we start to look at our projects to scale generative AI is based on thechannels that they're going to focus on.
So a lot of times there's a performance marketing team that runs
paid social or display ads.
And we work just with that team in one country to scale up versioning using generative AI.
But really the email team in that country or the web marketing team in that country alsocan benefit.
(11:29):
And then if you think globally, that's where you really start to scale.
So we're going kind of channel by channel, region by region right now.
But we do have some ambitious brands who have a top-down directive for generative AI.
And they're going all in, kind of all at once.
And it's really about then how do you train people how to prompt better?
(11:50):
How do you optimize the workflow so that you can actually see the increased output inversions?
It's one thing just to throw generative AI at the problem.
It's another thing to actually have it materially impact the volume of content you'reproducing, because the theory is more content equals better performance.
We are seeing that born out in our data, but you actually have to get there for it towork.
(12:12):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and the promise of personalization, Gen.
AI is one huge lever to be able to get to that one-to-one holy grail that I guess we'reall trying to get to.
And that gets to your earlier point about the balance, if you will, between costefficiency versus performance.
(12:33):
And how can I drive performance maybe with better personalization, but also at the sametime do it in an efficient way?
Yeah, like in our email campaigns that we're running through Gen Studio, the budget isn'tnecessarily going down for email spend.
It's not necessarily a direct spend on email, and companies have usually sort of set uptheir systems to send as many as they need to to the size of lists they have.
(12:56):
So in those cases, we are seeing very much the focus on improved click-through rates,improved open rates, improved engagement rates, and so that's where we're seeing more
content equals more performance, but on the...
paid media side, there is definitely a desire from the brands to optimize their spend,whether that's with the agency or with the ad platforms themselves, and just achieve their
(13:17):
goals faster.
So Adobe's got some new functionality called Creative Intelligence.
What is that?
It sounds cool.
I think that's it.
As a product marketer, thank you.
Yes, we do try to make things sound cool, but also have them be useful.
What we've been able to do is take in historical ad uh units from a brand's paid mediasite.
(13:38):
uh So like if they're advertising on Meta or on Google, we can bring in and ingest all oftheir ads.
And then we use computer vision, use artificial intelligence to tag that image or thatvideo with all of its attributes.
And when you bring that tagging,
against all your ads into a reporting system, you get a different piece of informationback, which is what parts of my creative are performing better or worse with certain
(14:05):
audiences.
So it stops being about, well, did this ad work for this channel or at this time or forthis promotion or for this product?
It starts being more about, does blue work in this audience?
Does dark backgrounds do pictures of cake?
Like that's one of the famous ones from our work is our own marketing team uses thisfeature in Gen Studio and they found out that pictures of cake resonated with, mean,
(14:34):
wouldn't want to see some cake, you know, like on a YouTube roll or, you know, like aFacebook ad.
But it really did, without that tagging and tying it to revenue, you wouldn't necessarilykick off a new creative round to go make more cake.
A lot of creative teams want to try something new.
They don't necessarily want to go back and repeat, let's just do a bunch of cakes.
(14:55):
But when you can objectively say cakes perform better than phone booths, our next adshould feature food, at least.
Let's try food, and let's scale that to other regions.
Another example is when the Olympics happened, there was all of this football or soccercontent that Adobe was putting out there.
And then they repurposed that for their Brazil market.
(15:18):
And it just really was
It showed how quickly, you can look at the performance of the ad itself on the content orcreative level, you can quickly double down in what's working and turn off what's not
working.
And I think that's where we're saving our clients' spend is we're just not putting dollarsbehind bad creative uh or just underperforming creative.
(15:41):
Does that work hand-in-hand with the GEN Studio stuff that we were just talking about?
Does that data help feed into the GEN Studio?
Yes, that's actually the entire vision for this product is that we're bringing, know,Adobe reflects kind of how the market has worked, which is we've got a creative cloud and
an experience cloud and the marketers use the experience cloud and the creatives use thecreative cloud and GenStudio is the first time we're bringing those two groups together so
(16:10):
that you're creating, but you're also analyzing performance and you're publishing ads oremails directly to the channel.
So yes, that functionality is embedded directly within the product so that
anyone can see what's working and then just immediately initiate a new creative workflow.
Our ultimate vision is that you should actually be able to score your creative before itships if it actually is going to perform well and then also use those attributes to inform
(16:38):
the next time you use Firefly.
So if you're going to ask for an image or a short five second video, you should just beable to reference, well, these are the attributes that are performing well with my target
audience.
Let's create
videos or ads off of that.
That's awesome.
mean, the thing of bringing those teams together, the performance marketers and thecreative marketers with a better intelligence around it is pretty cool.
(17:04):
And the fact that I do a lot of work in analyzing media effectiveness, right?
And the one thing that we always forget with those models is that creative actually winsthe day.
Creative carries the day.
Yeah, it's the biggest contributor to incremental sales.
It's like, yes, reach, relevancy, audience, it all matters.
(17:26):
But I mean, we all know as consumers, when we receive content that's not a fit for us, weget ad fatigue.
We scroll, we skip, we don't engage, we disengage from that brand.
so creative is so important.
But it's really interesting to watch a creative professional start to be exposed to thelife of a marketer.
(17:47):
and watch them almost squirm and seeing their creative performance broken down into littleattributes of like, well, you chose to put a cake or a phone booth, like that worked or
didn't work.
But equally, marketers are having to take a role in the creative process.
Now it's time for marketers to actually take that ownership of it's not just about speedsand feeds or just about my audience segmentation, you know, or my ROAS.
(18:12):
I actually need to think about what
message is going to resonate with my audience rather than just throwing a lot of differentideas against the wall.
I call that marketing with a big Exactly.
That's marketing with a little Yeah.
grown-up marketing.
Well, I know you've also got a new beta around AI agents in this process.
(18:36):
So tell me a little bit about how that works.
Yeah, it's something we're really excited about.
mean, full disclosure, we're definitely jumping on the agent bandwagon.
Like everybody's got to have an agent and we have one too.
In fact, Adobe is launching tons of agents right now.
But I think where we're trying to stay pragmatic to what the customers and brands need usto do is we've shown them Gen Studio where you can enter a prompt and get back copy and or
(19:00):
enter a prompt and get back an image.
Like that's great for like that one channel that one time.
But what if I have a brief?
that is the genesis of my entire marketing campaign.
It's got the goals, the personas, the channels, the products, the spend.
I want to feed all that context of the campaign into an agent and have it start giving meiterations of a campaign idea.
(19:26):
And that's what this agent does.
It gives you three to five different campaign directions and starts drafting ads or emailsbased off of those concepts that you select.
We're trying to get to a place, and I think we will get there this year, where the briefbecomes the new prompt.
So instead of entering a prompt to get content, you submit your brief, and the agentstarts working for you, and you interact with it from there.
(19:51):
That's fascinating.
mean, the new creative team could be these agents, if you will.
Yeah, I saw someone on socials recently talking about this idea of like a marketingengineer.
It is basically this person that is really governing AI and overseeing how Gen.ai and theagents that power them are actually delivering on the scope of work rather than like this
(20:20):
kind of separation of, this is what I do and this is what AI does.
It's sort of like.
the marketing team is actually overseeing all these tools.
m
That's a good way to put it, and it makes me think of like the, I'm gonna date myself, butyou when we moved from like print ads to like web.
And there was this transition of interactive people.
(20:42):
Exactly.
They were all the interactive designer.
Yeah, and now it's just you're a designer.
Because you do web and you do print or you don't do it anymore.
there's definitely, yeah, and I see that true with like marketing analysts.
I think that role of a marketing analyst that's deep in data is a really good persona foradopting generative AI.
(21:04):
And that's what we've had to do with Gen Studios.
We've had to find the evangelists that really love and are interested in generative AI todo the first pilot.
That's back to the scaling issue.
That's actually the hardest part is finding the right people inside of an organizationthat get it and are passionate about generative AI, even outside of their work.
(21:25):
They use chat GPT regularly or they're just, creative in some way.
And then there's a second wave that is really where the work begins, which is what we callthe conscripts.
It's when the brand team says, all of you in this marketing department are now going tolearn generative AI and we're totally changing the way you work.
And it feels a bit threatening.
That's where.
(21:46):
scaling to production happens or it doesn't is in that second wave.
The people that love it, they adopt it.
But the people that are a little bit skeptical or nervous, they're the ones that can makethat project fail or soar.
Well, it's been fun talking about business and Gen.
AI.
Thanks, Sam.
I want to step back and have a couple other questions I ask everyone that comes on theshow.
(22:08):
My first one is my favorite question to ask.
has there ever been an experience of your past that defines or makes up who you are today?
Yeah, I mean, I think if we slow down enough and reflect, there are probably key things.
I did a lot of personal work in my early 20s, a lot of personal development, and I learnedhow much our lives are governed by stories and by narratives, and that's why marketing
(22:38):
exists.
The reason that we connect with brands in marketing is because there's a narrative behindthe ad.
there's some idea that resonates with us.
And I discovered when I was younger that I was kind of playing out a story that wassomeone else's story or was like society's story about like what it means to like have a
(22:59):
career, you know, like life was about working really hard and like getting married andhaving kids.
And then like, and I remember realizing like, and I said at the end of that sentence, andthen I'll be happy, you know, like there's this like, there's this story about
humanity that I'm included in, like that you just work really hard, you kind of play thegame, and then at the end of it there's some reward.
(23:24):
And I kind of realized how ridiculous that is, and how like it's not, that's not true.
That's just a story that I say and that we say.
And so I think that had a really profound effect on like in my 20s, and I do still workhard.
I still have a wife and kids.
(23:46):
But the whole context is different.
It's just really about, you doing meaningful work?
And you've seen probably, or lots of people have seen, the surveys of people who are nearthe end of their lives who the biggest thing that they deal with is regret of what they
didn't do or the chances they didn't take.
(24:06):
And I think that really hit home when I was younger.
And I've tried to stay true to that, even in a corporate.
world where yeah, I still need a paycheck.
I still need to pay for the mortgage, but like have it be meaningful rather than just be achase or a race.
And I think that was like a big moment when I was younger.
that notion and you know I've been caught up in the rat race I would describe that in myown terms and you know making sure you can enjoy the ride along the way I think is what
(24:38):
you get you know
only get the ride.
It's like when you go to the...
That's all you get in life is you get to go on the coaster and then you get off.
The ride is the experience.
That's the life.
And I think now, like in approaching, I guess, middle age, where you start to see, I'mkind of sandwiched between not being as young as I used to be, having older kids, and then
(25:01):
having aging parents.
Like you start to really feel just that time.
uh
the timeless nature of the present moment and actually being able to enjoy.
And so, yeah, I spend more time FaceTiming with my kids and try to connect with peoplerather than the work.
And I think that's what AI or generative AI can't mimic.
(25:23):
And that's why humans need to run marketing.
That's why when I talk to marketing leaders and they're concerned about AI taking theirjobs, I'm like, well, where's the humanity?
Is marketing, are robots gonna sell to robots?
If that's the case, then we're in trouble.
But if we're gonna stay in a paradigm where marketers are marketing to consumers or tobusinesses, then the humans are gonna be in the driving seat and it's just about scale.
(25:52):
Gotcha.
Well, if you were starting this journey all over again, what advice would you giveyourself, your younger self?
uh That's a good question.
I think it's the advice that I try to give myself now, which is, like, don't take yourselftoo seriously.
Like, I can kind of, my wife calls me intense.
(26:13):
And that's like the nicest way that she says it, you know?
She's like, you're intense.
uh And it's true, and I am, and that comes from a good place, but I also like, try, I haveto really remind myself to not take myself too seriously.
And also, like, I think,
Part of my story of seeing that kind of life arc that we all kind of subscribe to inWestern culture and kind of letting that go was also just the expectations.
(26:40):
That I have to be perfect or I have to do it right, right away.
And I think I would want my younger self to know that it's gonna be okay.
And that don't take yourself too seriously and enjoy the ride and give myself some.
compassion or some empathy for the hard moments that we've experienced.
(27:00):
think we all kind of suck up in corporate America and it's about the work and it's aboutthe performance and it's about the revenue or it's about the results.
And sometimes it's really not about the people and it's like, can we get back to that andjust enjoy the time that we have together in the work we get to do.
Well, is there a topic either you're trying to learn more about or you think marketersneed to be learning more about today?
(27:23):
I mean, obviously, generative AI is the go-to, of course.
If you're not, go to firefly.adobe.com, enter a prompt.
Just try and see.
Have that connection to prompting for results.
Use Chat GPT.
Start to get familiar with what your life as a future marketer will be.
(27:43):
So that's definitely like.
And we have what we call Gen Studio Academy, where we take people through a self-directedcourse on prompting.
So prompting's definitely.
a big one.
But like personally back to this whole like what life you know what matters in life islike I've definitely gotten into like the financial independence retire early the fire
(28:05):
movement.
I'm not like a fire person like there are people that go to conferences but I'vedefinitely like I'm definitely trying to play a different game these days and I wish
marketers were like and just corporate employees were just a little bit more forwardlooking.
on their financial health and their financial future so that they don't feel like theyhave to work themselves into the ground just to make a paycheck.
(28:32):
So like just taking some of that personal power back into your own life and career is whatI'm passionate about and I guess would want others to be too.
That's awesome.
Is there anything that you're curious about?
Could it be a macro trend or something very niche?
Just curious what you're curious about.
I mean, the whole emergence of video generation is really fascinating because it's gotthat new wow factor to it.
(28:57):
Like we just launched video generation in beta at Adobe.
And it's so cool.
Like it is so amazing.
So I'm definitely like geeking out on like, you could take a picture of a brand campaignand give it to Firefly and it will create a video.
Like that's.
That's blowing the mind.
This is being filmed right now.
And so like that's probably where people start to freak out.
(29:19):
It's like, oh, like you could just take an image and like you don't need to film anythinganymore.
I know it's probably not going to be the case, but it's just about how do we work withthat technology?
Like I want to get that in the hands as many of my customers as possible.
It's just like trying the video models that we have is just so, so cool.
It's fascinating to me how some of those tools can almost create entire worlds that you'reliving, not living in, you're immersed in.
(29:49):
Well, there's going to be a time pretty soon where like, and what will happen when there'san Oscar nominated short film that was completely made by one person and AI, like where
the entire thing was just made on a machine or like those are the futures we're going tostart.
Those are now within reach.
(30:11):
Or you can imagine that that could be possible.
And that's pretty cool to sort of imagine how that's going to disrupt really allindustries ah as we move forward.
Well, last question for you.
What do you think is the largest opportunity or threat facing marketers today?
I think the biggest threat or like, yeah, the personal risk to any individual in marketingis to be cynical about generative AI and to like, and to sit on the sidelines and wait it
(30:39):
out.
Like when the internet came out, there were skeptics and there's some famous quotes ofpeople saying like in the nineties, like, the internet, that thing's going up in smoke.
like, and that, you know, you could point to like the metaverse.
like a couple years ago is like that hype cycle that everyone saw the metaverse, but thatrequired us to change our form factor and put on technology that just isn't there yet.
(31:04):
Glasses, headwear just isn't there yet for metaverse, but I think it will.
But generative AI fits right now in your form function.
Like how do you work?
You sit at a desk, you work with a phone, you use a laptop.
Like that fits your way of working.
And so if you're on the sidelines waiting for generative AI to come work,
on you, you're going to miss the opportunity of shaping how it transforms your business.
(31:28):
I would be concerned of hearing any marketer say, I'm not even interested in tryinggenerative AI because it is just going to be so revolutionary.
Ed, thank you for coming on the show.
Thanks for having me.
I don't think I've ever been so centered, yet thinking about the future all at the sametime.
That's the idea, right?
You should come take a yoga class one day.
(31:50):
Thank you.
Thank you so much, Al.
It good to be here.
The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speaker's own and do not represent theviews, thoughts, and opinions of Deloitte.
The material and information presented here is for general information purposes only anddoes not imply endorsement or opposition to any specific company, product, or service.
(32:12):
Hi, it's Alan again.
Marketing Beyond is a Deloitte digital podcast.
It's created and produced by me with post-production support from Sam Robertson.
If you're new to Marketing Beyond, please feel free to write us a review and subscribe onyour favorite listening platform.
I also invite you to explore the other Deloitte digital podcast at deloitte digital dotcom slash us slash podcast and share the show with your friends and colleagues.
(32:40):
I love hearing from listeners.
You can contact me at marketing beyond at Deloitte dot com.
You'll also find complete show notes and links to what's discussed in the podcast today.
and you can search our archives.
I'm Ellen Hart and this is Marketing Beyond.
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