March 25, 2025 • 40 mins
🔎 Episode Overview
In this episode of Math! Science! History!, I sit down with the brilliant and engaging Kate Ertmann, the mathematician and storyteller behind Kate Loves Math. We discuss her fascinating journey from professional actress to 3D animation entrepreneur to organizational designer—ultimately landing in the world of math communication. Kate shares how math is embedded in everything, from human relationships to business structures, and how she embraces the power of chaos in life. Plus, we brainstorm a new podcast idea?!
🧠What You’ll Learn:
-Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â How math is a universal language that connects tech, business, and creative minds.
-         The surprising truth about chaos—why it isn’t randomness, but a structured system with patterns.
-Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â How embracing imposter syndrome and finding your unique voice can empower you in any field.
🏛 Links & Resources:
đź”— Website: KateLovesMath.com
đź“© Sign up for her Mathnificent Words newsletter for inspiring math insights!
đź“š Get her top 10 recommended math books when you subscribe.
📱 Follow Kate on:
LinkedIn: Kate Ertmann
BlueSky: @katelovesmath (subject to change)
Instagram &
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gabrielle Birchak (00:00):
And then I, it's almost
like we've alreadybeen drinking and
it's not even noon.
Kate Ertmann (00:06):
Well, I dunno about you, but No.
Okay.
No I haven't.
I'm just drinking water.
Gabrielle Birchak: Welcome to Math, science (00:11):
undefined
History, a podcastdedicated to bringing
the topics of math andscience to you through
the lens of history.
It's still Women'sHistory Month, and I am
still focusing on theawesomeness of women.
In today's episode, Iam interviewing Kate
...Ertmann from theblog Kate Loves Math
with an Asterisk.
I'm Gabrielle Birchak.
I'm an author anda speaker with a
(00:33):
background in math,science, and journalism.
And by the time you'redone listening to
this, you will find alove for math that you
never thought you had.
Kate Ertmann bringsa fascinating and
unexpected journeyinto the world
of mathematics.
Before she turned 30,Kate had already made
her mark in film andtelevision starting as a
(00:54):
child actor in New YorkCity and later working
as an indie filmmaker,TV commercial producer
and digital producer.
But it was when shestarted integrating
3D animation intoher projects that
she had an epiphanymath and science.
Her longtimepassions weren't just
behind the scenes.
They were integralto everything
(01:15):
that she loved.
In 2022, she launchedKate Loves Math
with an asterisk.
It is a blog filled withinsightful math centric
essays that explorethe why behind life's
complexities and offera mathematical lens for
understanding the world.
Kate is even on theeditorial board for
the MathematicalAssociation of America's
(01:36):
Math Values blog.
Bridging the gap betweenacademic mathematics
and the everyday world.
She and I had so muchto talk about and I
have to admit, I totallyfangirled the interview.
She is so awesome,and we have since
decided that we'redefinitely going to
have to have podcastagain because this one.
(01:58):
Was way too much fun.
That being said, inthis episode, we're
gonna dive into Kate'sjourney, her passion for
making math relatableand how she applies
mathematical thinkingto business, creativity,
and life itself.
Let's welcome KateErtmann of Kate
loves Math to Math!
Science!
History!
Kate Ertmann withKate Loves Math.
It is such a joy tohave you on Math!
(02:21):
Science!
History!
I've been reading yourblog and I feel like you
and I connect because wehave so much in common.
We are both formeractresses and we
both just love math.
So how are you today?
Kate Ertmann: I'm doing okay. (02:36):
undefined
And and I, everythingyou just said, I
completely 100000000%agree with because I
think it's unusual that,what do you call it?
Venn diagram ofprofessional actor
and someone who lovesmath and likes to
talk about math withother people and get
excited about math.
Those two things.
It's rare.
It's rare.
Gabrielle Birchak: It is. (02:56):
undefined
It is really rareand sometimes, okay,
now we're just goingoff the questions.
I'm listening tothat sometimes, like
if you're ever outwith somebody, you
go into math and theyhave no idea what
you're talking about.
Do you everexperience that?
Kate Ertmann (03:09):
I think more like someone
will be like, problemtrying to problem
solve something.
You go out with friendsand they're like, oh,
this happened today, or.
I am working with thisperson and trying to
do that, and so muchof my math research and
writing is what I'veactually just recently
learned is calledsociophysics or referred
to as sociophysics.
(03:29):
So it's using mathand math tools to,
to try to understandhuman behavior and
societal phenomenonand things like that.
And that's just,that's what I'm drawn
to is about the mathof relationships.
So when I'm out withfriends and my husband
knows this also, thathe'll see it in my
face where someone'stalking about how
(03:49):
I don't know how todo this or how to do
that, and how can thiskind of relationship
thing exist.
Whatever, and I'lljust be sitting there
ha, wanting to saysomething, but I've been
here before and I knowfor a couple drinks in,
no one's gonna hear it.
They're just gonna lookat me and be like, Aw,
Kate, Kate, and yourfun little math stuff.
I'm like, butI can help you.
(04:13):
So, yeah.
Yeah.
Gabrielle Birchak: Oh my gosh. (04:14):
undefined
The biting ofthe tongue.
I am all too familiarwith that one.
Yes.
Yes.
Kate Ertmann (04:20):
And it's, you know, I mean, it's
also just wanting totalk and be heard.
They don't necessarily,they're not asking for
assistance or support inany very specific way.
So I'm like, mm-hmm.
I'll just, I'll waitto see if someone asks
me, then I can help oroffer help or whatever.
And sometimes it'sjust, it's taken me
a while to understandthat this isn't a, that
(04:41):
math is not fascinatingfor everyone.
Weird.
I don't get it, but
Gabrielle Birchak: I don't either. (04:44):
undefined
Kate Ertmann: Supposedly. (04:45):
undefined
Apparently it's not.
Yeah, I'll justkeep it to myself.
Maybe make a note onthe side and think,
oh, maybe I'll writesomething about that
sort of situation.
Change the names.
Gabrielle Birchak: But don't people (04:56):
undefined
realize that math iswhere the party's at?
Kate Ertmann (05:00):
Girl.
Yes.
I mean, I actually,I think so many times
people think the party'sat science and I'm
like, yeah, there'sa party there, but
there'd be no scienceparty if there wasn't
a math party first, so,
Gabrielle Birchak: exactly. (05:14):
undefined
Mm-hmm.
And there's alwaysthat whole drinking
and deriving thing.
Mm-hmm.
It says fun, likedrinking and deriving.
Kate Ertmann: Drinking and deriving. (05:23):
undefined
Now that's a goodname for something.
Maybe not aband, but, Hmm.
I'm making a note.
Gabrielle Birchak: Here you go. (05:30):
undefined
I don't know, maybe,maybe we could
have it adjunctpodcast together.
Kate Ertmann (05:36):
Okay.
I seriously, I'mmaking a note.
I really like that.
Drinking and deriving.
Wow.
Happy hour.
Hmm.
I'm liking this.
Gabrielle Birchak: Go on. (05:44):
undefined
Okay, so Iwanna find out.
You were aformer actress.
Mm-hmm.
And then youbecame a business
designer organizer.
Yeah.
Kate Ertmann (05:56):
Yeah.
Well, there'salso 3D animation
in between that
Gabrielle Birchak (05:59):
and then the 3D animation.
Give me a lowdown
Kate Ertmann (06:01):
I will
Gabrielle Birchak (06:01):
on, on your life story.
I, I, I wannahear all of this.
Kate Ertmann (06:05):
So, grew up in New York on
Long Island from theages of about seven
to I wanna say 16 ish.
I was a professionalchild actor in New York.
Did lots and lotsof commercials and
Broadway and a couplesoap operas, and I was
(06:25):
just, I was a workingactor and there'd be
times I'd be outtaschool for periods of
time and have to catchup on other things.
Went to college inOhio, Ohio University.
Went to get my degreein telecommunications.
That's what itwas called in the
late eighties.
But basically radio,tv, broadcasting, things
that are tools and stuffthat are obsolete now.
But I realizedthere was more power
(06:46):
behind the camera.
And then I, afterworking a bit after,
college in kind ofdocumentary film
work, I moved toPortland, Oregon.
At that time,there was a lot of
infomercial production.
Gabrielle Birchak (06:58):
Okay.
Kate Ertmann (06:58):
So I came to Portland
because there wasso much work here.
That's where I still am.
There was so muchwork here doing
that type of work.
Plus there was a lotof movies of the week
that were coming up.
Remember Moviesof the Week?
Gabrielle Birchak (07:10):
Aww.
I do.
Oh my gosh.
Kate Ertmann (07:12):
Yeah.
They were shooting alot of them in Portland
at this time becauseof state incentives for
the production to comeup from LA and it was
before Canada, Vancouverstarted doing all
their big incentives.
So they were comingto Portland a bunch
and they wantedjust to figure out
like how they couldput something more.
In there during thistime when a lot of
people, I guess, werechanging the station,
(07:34):
because infomercialsalways felt like
a TV show or some,that's why you stayed
and watched them.
That was right at thetime when Toy Story came
out and somehow theseworlds collided of 3D
animation and beingable to show the inner
workings of a vacuumor how a Boflex machine
works, stuff like that.
And in producingthose commercials,
the 3D animators thatI could find were
(07:56):
amazing creatives.
And some of them werelike dangerous enough
to know how to invoicefor their work and
track their hours.
And a couple ofthem started an
animation company,3D animation company.
And as so many thingshappen in life, you
get asked a questionat one point in your
life that you're like,yes, I'm gonna do that.
And so I was asked tobe their partner in this
3D animation company.
(08:18):
And I said, yeah,yeah, I'll do that.
And I ended up doingthat for 15 years
and love 3D animationbecause though I'm not
a 3D animator and neverbecame a 3D animator, I
knew how to talk aboutit because it's this
beautiful mix of mathscience and creative and
I just, I flippin lovedit and I still love it.
(08:38):
Yeah.
So the other partnersleft and I ended
up running thisanimation company
on my own somehow.
So did that 15 years,sold the company,
then went on to dothe organizational
design with startups.
So I. Basically that'swhat I learned from
all those years ofthe animation world of
running a company, wasthat the part I really
enjoyed was puttingthe structure of it
together, the blueprintof it, and I liked
(09:01):
working with folks whohad this great idea
and they were able toget funding, but they
didn't know how to buildthe company part of it.
And I loved working,especially with females.
I wanted to allow themto be able to work on
their product or theirservice and they could
get their funding.
And I could just be inthe background making
all the spreadsheets,designing it out
for five years doingthe infrastructure
(09:23):
of this is how youwould do hiring and
making that, and thengiving that to them.
And my last taskwould always be
hiring the COO.
Basically be takingall the stuff that
I had made, I'dhand it to them.
Then I'd kind of justwalk backwards outta
the building and belike, bye, good luck.
And then go onto the next one.
And I did that for likeclose to seven years,
(09:44):
I would say, and itwas during pandemic
times that I starteddoing Kate Loves Math.
There you go.
That's my long story.
It's
Gabrielle Birchak: gone very well because (09:53):
undefined
now you're on theeditorial board of the
Mathematical AssociationAmerica's Blog
Column Math Matters.
Kate Ertmann (10:01):
I have.
That was thescariest part for me.
Like for real, it wasthat the mathematicians
would, quote unquote,find me out, know that I
do not have an advanceddegree in mathematics.
Yeah.
Open arms.
I went to one of their,went to Math Fest in
2023 I think it was,and Wow, what a lovely
(10:22):
group of humans.
You found this littlething to talk about and
you start geeking outtogether, and then Yes,
they're understanding.
They're like, wait,you don't have a
advanced math degree,and I'm all sheepish.
I'm like, no, Ido not, but I read
all like "You're amathematician." "Oh,
no, no I'm not." "Yesyou are." "You think,
you breathe, you lovemathematics, and that's
a mathematician."and I realized, oh,
(10:43):
I'm talking to peoplewho are Gen X, my
generation or younger.
And I realized in myhead, mathematician
equaled of course,like older white guy
who's curmudgeony,crabby, and would be
pushing back on mesaying, I did all this.
That's, if you didn'tdo all that, there's
no way you're amathematician like me.
(11:04):
I found out that, ohno, there's actual real
humans now that arelovely mathematicians
and don't feel alldefensive about that.
They have these advanceddegrees and I don't,
they just are happythat there's this
enjoyment about maththat we can share
Gabrielle Birchak: Exactly. (11:19):
undefined
That's a world thatembraces us because
I don't have advanceddegrees in math.
Kate Ertmann (11:23):
Yeah.
Gabrielle Birchak: I think we're just (11:24):
undefined
stuck with thatstereotype in our head.
'cause that'sthe environment
we grew up in.
Kate Ertmann (11:29):
Right.
Gabrielle Birchak (11:29):
It's like a mathematician
is somebody with a PhDwho's been teaching in
the professorial area?
Kate Ertmann (11:34):
Yeah.
Gabrielle Birchak: For 20 some years. (11:35):
undefined
It's like, no, no,we live, eat, and
breathe this stuff.
We are mathematicians.
Yes.
Kate Ertmann (11:41):
Yes.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And it's, I feel likeit's just recently
that I've owned that.
And when I am postingor I'm writing an email
or whatever, I willidentify myself as,
I'm a mathematician.
My name is Kate Ertmann.
Gabrielle Birchak: You are! (11:53):
undefined
And here's the thing,here's what I wanna,
'cause it's Women'sHistory Month.
Kate Ertmann (11:57):
Yes.
Gabrielle Birchak: And I know that as (11:58):
undefined
women we're often.
Put in the corner,nobody puts baby
in the corner.
We're often put inthe corner and you
know, made to feelless than because we
are women in the labor women in academia.
How did you come toterms with imposter
syndrome and how didyou just get over
(12:21):
those little naggingthoughts in the back?
'cause I have mine,I have my imposter
syndrome thoughtsin the back of my
head all the time.
Yeah.
How do youget over that?
Kate Ertmann: Ha ha ha ha ha. (12:29):
undefined
Um.
Gabrielle Birchak (12:32):
Is that a touchy subject?
Kate Ertmann: No, no, no, no. (12:33):
undefined
It's not a touchysubject at all.
It really isn't.
I think that my pauseis because I don't
believe that a hundredpercent have gotten
over it, but I wouldsay that certainly
having a good group offriends or colleagues,
peers that you know,will basically.
(12:56):
Almost get upset withyou if you talk down
about yourself and aboutyour accomplishments.
So I have a healthygroup of folks who
have basically onestep below berate me
for when I talk downabout anything and
I'm like about myself.
I'm like, oh, okay.
Cool.
Got it.
I got it, gotit, got it.
I'm good at this.
I'm good at this.
This is I'm, yes,I'm just as good.
And for me, it startedwith being in the
(13:17):
tech community andbeing in high tech
and startup community.
And again, being with.
Other women.
Once you have otherpeople confirm the,
those deep thoughtswhere you're questioning
stuff and you haveother people confirm.
Yeah, I wasthinking that too.
It just, it helps washit away out of yourself.
Gabrielle Birchak: We'll be right back (13:37):
undefined
after a quick wordfrom my advertisers.
One of myfavorite mantras.
My brother uses BeAfraid and Do it anyway.
Kate Ertmann (13:45):
Oh, that's really good.
Oh, that's really,really good.
Yeah.
Oh, I love that.
Gabrielle Birchak: Well, that's a Steve (13:50):
undefined
Birchak quote, justto let you know.
Kate Ertmann (13:52):
I love it.
Gabrielle Birchak: Yeah, you are afraid. (13:53):
undefined
There we go.
Kate Ertmann (13:55):
Taking out my pen, writing
that one down.
Be afraid todo it anyway.
Hmm.
Which of course fora long time I would
say that I was themonarch of studying
the risk out of risk.
So of course when Iwould finally figure
out how to make thatjump to do this thing,
because I would be like,okay, I would do this.
If this happens, I,this, this happens,
these opportunitieswould go away.
(14:16):
So yeah, this kind ofgoes with it where.
Be afraid.
You say be afraidand do it anyway.
Gabrielle Birchak (14:22):
Yeah.
Be afraid anddo it anyway.
Kate Ertmann (14:23):
That's what I need to, that's
gonna replace mytendency to study the
risk at risk, because Imiss the opportunities
because of that.
Gabrielle Birchak: Oh, oh my gosh. (14:30):
undefined
Kate Ertmann (14:32):
Right.
Gabrielle Birchak (14:32):
Okay.
So you, like you say,you're the monarch
of evaluating therisk out of risk.
That's the tech brain.
That's a tech thingright there, because
you're always lookingfor what fires
do we have goingon down the road
Kate Ertmann (14:43):
mm-hmm.
Gabrielle Birchak: That we're going to (14:43):
undefined
need to address oncewe go down this path.
Kate Ertmann (14:46):
Mm-hmm.
I'm definitely systemsoriented person.
I love building systems.
That's why I loveddoing the organizational
design work ofbuilding a system for
a company, essentially.
And anytime you builda system, anytime
you build a projectplan, whatever, it's
going to go, maybenot off the rails,
but it's not gonnago according to plan.
(15:06):
It's, it just won't.
And I would get excusesfrom a lot of creatives
actually, who wouldsay, it's never gonna
go the way that Iplan it to, so why
bother making a plan?
And I'm like, ah, youneed to make a plan
because you need toknow when, you need
to be aware of whenit goes off the plan.
And then that way, maybeyou don't know exactly
what to do, but you knowthat something is not
(15:28):
going according to plan.
You know, visuallythink about it.
If you go, if you'rehiking on a trail and
you take the wrongpath off that trail,
it bifurcates orsomething, then the
sooner you know theeasier it is to get back
to that, to the pointthat you wanna be at.
Gabrielle Birchak: Yeah, I love that. (15:43):
undefined
So it's like therecould be a fire here,
we're gonna re-navigateonce we see that fire.
Kate Ertmann (15:48):
Yeah.
And you may not, youmay be able maybe.
Just going on pastthe fire, like sweet.
I can tell you teamthat we actually passed
that potential fire.
Five days ago.
It's not that hard tocreate a plan, just
create a plan, knowwhere you wanna go,
and either reverseengineer it or figure
out like what the mainstopping points are
along the way and howlong that'll take.
(16:08):
And yeah, I know, again,this is my, I try not
to be all like, howdo you not know this?
Which is thehardest thing.
It just feels sological to me.
But then I realizedthat there's so much
creative, there's a lotof creative stuff I'm
I am good at and I feelfortunate that I have
spent so much time inthe creative world, but
there's also a bunchof creative things that
I cannot nevermind, donot want to do, like
(16:32):
drawing or painting.
That kind of stuff isvery frustrating to me.
I find norelaxation at it and
Gabrielle Birchak: Oh my God, (16:39):
undefined
Kate Ertmann (16:39):
I've had so many artists, friends
who are artists say,oh, just take this.
Let's go and do oneof those fun, like
what are they thatyou drink wine and you
paint picture thing.
Gabrielle Birchak: Oh my I hate those. (16:49):
undefined
Kate Ertmann (16:50):
That sounds like hell.
I never everwant to do that.
That is horrible.
Gabrielle Birchak: I did it once and (16:57):
undefined
I was nauseous andit wasn't the wine
that made me sick.
It was the experience.
Kate Ertmann: Yep, exactly. (17:05):
undefined
I'm just like, this isnot what's in my head.
I can't do thisthe way I want to.
Just be free withit, Kate, whatever
it could be.
No.
No, I'll not.
I can relax, but thisis not how I relax.
This is this.
No,
Gabrielle Birchak: exactly. (17:17):
undefined
Kate Ertmann: No, no, no, no. (17:17):
undefined
Gabrielle Birchak: Gimme a good math (17:18):
undefined
book and I'll sit downand I'm so relaxed.
Kate Ertmann: I'm so relaxed. (17:22):
undefined
I'm like, oh my brain's,this is stimulating
and I can understandthis, and then I can
just close the book.
Take a nap.
Think about it.
Oh, I can use this.
That's lovely.
God.
Gabrielle Birchak (17:35):
Now I love reading your blog.
It is just so wonderful.
And the asterisk tell.
Tell me more aboutthe asterisk.
Kate Ertmann (17:44):
Well, if you hadn't, you
hadn't realized it yet.
I can go off on tangentsa bit and to me they
are important to thejust of a whole story,
so, most of my essays.
Yeah, I have them.
I think maybeone or two don't.
And they are justthose moments that
reminds me of this.
So it could be areference to some
something in baseball'cause I love baseball
(18:04):
and it might, andso, so it's something
that's not, , integralto understanding
whatever the maintopic is of this essay.
If you know me at all,and if you are someone
who enjoys my littleoff sense of humor.
That's where you'llreally get a lot
of my personalityis in the asterisk,
Gabrielle Birchak (18:20):
But let's talk about math.
Okay.
Those asterisks.
Kate Ertmann (18:23):
Yeah.
Gabrielle Birchak: You say they're (18:23):
undefined
not integral, butif you think about
math, oh boy.
Math has everythingthat we know about
math to this pointhas been brought to
us through foundationsover the years, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's like all ourentire mathematical
foundations arebuilt on asterisks,
on Kate's asterisks.
All these asteriskshave built up your blog.
Much like math overthe years is built up
(18:46):
where we are today.
Kate Ertmann (18:47):
Oh my God.
You are givingme the best.
I can't wait to hearthis, uh, podcast back.
'cause I'm gonna justrip out that part
and then put that onthe asterisk page of
you describing thatbecause that's perfect.
Yes.
Like an asterisk.
This part.
Oh boy.
Oh, the possibilities.
Opportunities.
This is great.
Yeah.
Hit me in theright place there.
(19:07):
I'm like, that is it.
Gabrielle Birchak (19:08):
Yeah.
That's what yourasterisks are.
They're foundational.
It's like whenyou read, okay.
You read a math bookand you know how it has
an equation, and thenit has a letter with in
parentheses on the side.
Kate Ertmann (19:19):
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle Birchak: Because it references (19:19):
undefined
a second equation.
Kate Ertmann (19:22):
Yeah.
Gabrielle Birchak: You know what I'm (19:22):
undefined
talking about.
Kate Ertmann (19:23):
Excellent.
Gabrielle Birchak: That's exactly what (19:23):
undefined
your asterisks are.
Oh,
Kate Ertmann (19:26):
oh my.
See, I feellike they're.
Or that they're moreflippant things.
But now that I thinkabout it, there's
definitely times whileI'm writing, I'm like,
that's too off course.
I'm not gonna put thatin as an asterisk.
Yeah, it does support.
Gosh, you're,you're awesome.
Gabrielle Birchak: Well, that's how I see. (19:41):
undefined
That's why I love,that's why I wanted
to bring up thatquestion, because I
love these asterisks.
They're like,oh my gosh.
It's like readinga math book.
This is so cool.
Kate Ertmann (19:50):
Thank you!
I love it.
I love it.
Gabrielle Birchak: We'll be right back (19:53):
undefined
after a quick wordfrom my advertisers.
I love this blogbecause you go into
chaos and it's one ofmy favorite subjects.
Tell me about your blogand what inspired it
and how you have thisaffinity for chaos.
Kate Ertmann (20:12):
Yeah, so I'm a little obsessed
with it, with chaos,the linguistics of it.
Okay, so I firstread about chaos.
And read about dynamicsand all of that stuff
in Steven Strogatz oneof his books and such
a fantastic explainerof mathematics.
His more well-knownbooks are, I'm
saying this now,I'm like spinning
(20:33):
my chair around.
What's the X one?
Oh, help me out here.
Gabrielle Birchak: Joy of X. (20:36):
undefined
Kate Ertmann (20:37):
Joy of X. Found it!
Yes.
Joy of X. He'swritten a bunch of
books and he's writesfor New York Times.
Amazing, amazingmathematician.
And he first wrote,though, the first thing
I read by him thathe wrote before, Joy
of X is a book calledCalculus of Friendship.
And it is thissuch, this personal,
(20:58):
beautiful book aboutthis relationship he
had with his calculusteacher in high school,
and there is a sectionthat he talks about how
he started focusing indynamics and telling
his high school teacherabout that and the way
he talked about it wassuch passion and joy
in all the discoveryof it, and also chaos
(21:19):
being in the scopeof all the different
mathematical theoriesand concepts out there.
That chaos isrelatively young.
It's like a little over50 years old compared to
hundreds and hundreds ofyears old for many other
concepts and theories.
And when he describedthat chaos is not
about something beingoutta control, that
it's about a newpattern being developed
and it's actuallyvery in control.
(21:40):
And here's all thethings that prove
that it's somethingthat's in control.
I realized I just hadthat moment of, well,
why do people saysomething is chaotic?
Especially people whoare sports announcers.
I watch a lot of motorsports and every time
someone would say, oh,it's getting chaotic,
or That was chaotic.
Anything chaotic.
I, again, veryexpressive person and
(22:00):
especially when you'rearound people that
you're comfortable with,like your partner and
some close friends.
I would, not inwardly,but like very outwardly
be rolling my eyes,and it's that whole
like, actually, that'snot the right use of
the word and whatever.
Yes, I would do that,and it just became one
of those, I don't know,glowing words in the sky
that only I could see.
(22:22):
I started just digginginto it and teaching
myself more and moreabout, and learning
more and more about it.
The big boom for meabout it all is that,
oh, chaos is notmathematical chaos.
True chaos is not onlyabout things being
in control, that isjust a new pattern has
developed, but thatit has steps to it.
(22:42):
And when somethingdoes go chaotic, well
that doesn't mean thatwe, outside of this,
that are watching it,it does not mean that
we have no power.
Doesn't mean that weput our hands up and
say, oh, well that gotchaotic and or it is
chaotic and what areyou gonna do when chaos
happens in real life?
(23:02):
I so strongly believethat it gets me crazy
one, when someoneuses the word chaos
incorrectly andusually they use it
to incite people toget all, it's crazy.
It's outta control.
It's like, no, it's not.
It's actuallyin control.
That would be disorder.
When you seesomething and you
think it's chaos,no, it's disorder.
Whole other storywith disorder.
But with chaos, notonly does it mean that
(23:24):
there's new patterndeveloping, it means
that you can actuallyevaluate it, see how far
along it is, and there'sall these different
things of checking this.
There's strangeattractors and there's
basin of attraction, andthere's these very mathy
words and mathy phrasesthat can be applied
to real life, that youcan evaluate how far
(23:44):
along this trajectoryof chaos is, and you can
do something to change.
You're not gonnachange everything and
you're not gonna, youare not gonna stomp
it out or it's notgoing to go away.
Again, the train's leftthe station, but you
can absolutely mostcertainly nudge it.
Nudge it to get off thatlittle path that it's
on, or you can change.
(24:06):
The outcome, the finaloutcome of where that
trajectory is going.
And so I believewe have power when
chaos is around.
And right now there'ssome chaos going on.
Gabrielle Birchak: My gosh, I know. (24:17):
undefined
And all we can do iscontrol our own chaos.
But I love that youbring up nudging things.
Yeah.
It's the wholeconcept of when
there's attractors
Kate Ertmann (24:27):
Yeah.
Gabrielle Birchak: in chaos. (24:27):
undefined
And how it createsa pattern that
develops withinthat chaotic system.
Kate Ertmann (24:34):
Yeah.
Gabrielle Birchak: And all it takes (24:35):
undefined
is a little nudge.
Yeah.
To make it go in adifferent direction.
So it's empowering,actually, what you're
talking about isvery empowering.
Kate Ertmann (24:44):
I agree.
I agree.
So many times whensomething happens and
that's upsetting andcertainly you feel
like you don't have anycontrol, but rarely.
Especially those ofus that have privilege
and have position inthe world compared
to the majority ofothers, we do have
power to do something.
(25:05):
Is it easy?
No.
Do we have to makethis nudge that
we're gonna do?
Does that need tobecome a priority?
If we're gonnaactually, if the nudge
is going to nudge andhave a result that we
want to have, yeah.
It's not gonna besomething you can just.
Like you take out thegarbage, you're like,
oh yeah, I gotta dothat little nudge thing.
No, we're gonna,it's gonna need to
be a collective,probably a community
(25:27):
coming together towork on it together.
But are we powerless?
Absolutely not.
We have power.
We have power.
Gabrielle Birchak (25:35):
Yes.
Yes.
Now, back to theconcept of disorder.
Do you think we havepower over disorder?
Kate Ertmann (25:42):
Nah.
I mean, disorderis, that disorder
will happen.
This all happens incomplex systems and
events happen and theywill be disorderly
or they could bechaotic, and disorder
is slipping on.
The banana peeldisorder is.
Uh, car accident or loseyour wallet, whatever.
(26:03):
But when it's a patternthat keeps happening
over and over and likean exact pattern, so
I'll say to someone,yeah, you might slip
on a banana peel everyday, but unless that
banana peel, I mean,one, wow, you're clumsy.
Watch whereyou're going.
But two, for itto be a chaotic.
Chaos going onin your life with
that banana peel.
That banana peelwould have to be in
(26:24):
the exact same placeevery single day.
And same time, like allthe variables have to be
exactly the same everyday, and the condition's
exactly the same everytime it happens to you.
If otherwise, it'sjust disorder.
It's still reallyannoying, but it's
also a very commonpart of life.
(26:46):
And the thing withdisorder, I find.
That happens is thatif you do get in a car
accident a few timesa year and it is in
the same area of town,we have a tendency to
want to avoid fixingsomething, not even
fixing, avoid, liketrying to figure out
the remedy to why thatwas happening and just
(27:08):
as humans, and instead,we will do these
workarounds, that willusually take more time.
'cause you're notgonna, you refuse to
drive through thatarea of town anymore.
So you're gonna.
Take the highwaythat goes around or
whatever it might be.
Gabrielle Birchak: Or write the city. (27:20):
undefined
So they put in astreetlight, you
know, let's nudge it.
Kate Ertmann: Yes, exactly. (27:24):
undefined
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, you can nudgein disorder, but it's
much easier to justbe like, la, la, la.
Just let it keephappening to
other people.
And I will go overhere and it's like,
but nothing fixed.
What washappening there?
So.
Oy.
Gabrielle Birchak: I don't know if (27:39):
undefined
you think about it.
Could disorder possiblybe an element of chaos
that can be rectifiedthrough nudging?
Could we nudge disorderinto a state of chaos so
that it is manageable?
I, no, now I'm justthrowing out ideas.
Kate Ertmann: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (27:55):
undefined
But I would, I couldhave an answer to that
if I read my chapteron disorder because
I can't remember offthe top of my head.
Um, uh, my instinctis to say, to say
no to your questionbecause why Kate?
Why is it not.
(28:16):
It has.
Yeah.
It has something todo with the dynamics
of the system, howit's effective.
Gabrielle Birchak (28:21):
Okay.
Kate Ertmann (28:21):
But I don't know what it is
offhand 'cause my brainand memory are for shit.
Gabrielle Birchak: Mm-hmm. (28:27):
undefined
Well, it's not even,I'm not even noon.
We haven't had our,our coffee and, you
know.
Kate Ertmann (28:33):
But do you do that also?
Like, I do this, Iactually relate to
my husband and my, myhusband's a writer also,
and he and some otherfriends who are writers
where when you've notread something that
you wrote for a while,you put it out there
and then you come backto it and you read
it and you're like,damn, that's good.
Gabrielle Birchak: Oh my gosh. (28:50):
undefined
Lately I've beensaying that a lot.
I'm like, I obviouslydidn't write this
when I had AI becausethis is really good.
Kate Ertmann (28:57):
This just really good.
That's just, I havegotten to the point,
and I'm okay if thisgoes in the podcast.
I have gotten to thepoint in writing as
someone who has gonethrough menopause,
which I am, I dunnoif I'm proud to say,
but I know it's partof being a woman.
I'm fine.
Gabrielle Birchak: We've survived it. (29:14):
undefined
Yes.
Kate Ertmann (29:15):
Yeah.
Yes, exactly.
And I'm lucky.
I did not have alot of outwardly
physical things thatcame up for me that
changed, that weresymptoms or results or
whatever of menopause.
But the big one for mewas that the fog brain
and my brain just, whoa.
Just, it was amazinghow long it would take
me to write a simpleemail would take me
(29:37):
truly three hoursto write, and it was
very, very frustrating.
Anyway, one the thingsthat now that I'm on
the other side of itand HRTs, I love my
hormones, don't takethem away from me.
Um, the thing I starteddoing was when I would
have, when I wouldbe doing research, I
would start puttingmy initials, my own
(29:59):
initials, but KE colon,and then I would write
my notes and then I'mcontinuing do research.
And so.
I would know whenI would go back and
look at those notes.
'cause I keep themcategorized where
I have things aboutchaos and where I have
things about disorderor I have things about
parallels, whatever.
I'd go back and Iwould read, I'd be
(30:19):
like, oh, this is from,this is research, from
this book, whatever.
And then I wouldrealize, oh, that's
a conclusion Iwrote of my own.
And I know it's notfrom the book because
I wrote KE next toit, but do I remember
actually writing it?
No, not at all.
I don't rememberhaving a thought.
I don't remember that.
That's my conclusion.
(30:40):
So, um, yeah, I triedto like, I don't know
what that's, there'sgotta be a name for it.
Of noting, likedenoting or, or making.
Basically puttingthese little reminders
down like, no, thisis your conclusion.
Good job Kate.
Like Kate fromtwo years ago.
Like, good jobsaying future Kate.
Gabrielle Birchak: I like that. (30:58):
undefined
That is brilliant.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I used just put astar next to it.
That's how I know it.
To mine, it's got alittle star next to it
Kate Ertmann (31:05):
and you know that that's
what comes after thestars is your own.
Gabrielle Birchak (31:09):
Yeah.
Kate Ertmann: Put a note on it (31:09):
undefined
Gabrielle Birchak (31:09):
Yeah.
Kate Ertmann (31:10):
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle Birchak (31:10):
And, and then I have the
flags, the sticky flags.
Oh, yeah.
And I have all theseflags in all my books.
Mm-hmm.
And I know, like thepink ones are mine.
Kate Ertmann: Oh, I like that. (31:17):
undefined
Oh, that's really good.
See, I go color codingon my sticky tabs
with like subjects.
Interesting.
So I have, so if Iam writing, I assign
whatever a color to acertain essay, a certain
topic, I'll put thosein the different books
and on some of thosesticky tabs, they're
(31:37):
all of a sudden I comeacross a KE colon.
I'm like, oh, okay.
That's my conclusionabout that.
That's actually notright for the book, huh?
We all have ourprocesses and
Gabrielle Birchak: You're an active reader. (31:48):
undefined
That's wonderful.
I love that.
Kate Ertmann: Oh boy do I read? (31:51):
undefined
I love it.
Gabrielle Birchak: Oh my gosh. (31:53):
undefined
Kate Ertmann (31:54):
Delicious.
Gabrielle Birchak: We'll be right back (31:56):
undefined
after a quick wordfrom my advertisers.
What was the mostunexpected place
where you found math?
Kate Ertmann: Unexpected? (32:06):
undefined
I do go back to harmonyall the time because
not so much harmony when... And it is Harmony.
Okay.
I am, I'm, I'mjust gonna put a
line in the sand.
There it is.
Harmony.
Gabrielle Birchak (32:20):
Okay.
Kate Ertmann (32:21):
So I, I mean, I would say
obviously harmony,anything I'm having
to do with music,there's math in it that
seems obvious to me.
That be it, the notes ona scale or just so many
different things aremathematical in music.
But with harmony,specifically, when I
(32:41):
realized that I couldtalk to folks on a team
in the workplace, on abusiness team, or again,
like in a communityorganization, whatever
it might be, that it'sa talking about harmony
and sync or even sports.
I have done it withsports where harmony
(33:03):
is all about therebeing measured being
at least three parts,and it could be more
than that, but atleast three parts.
Gabrielle Birchak: Mm-hmm. (33:10):
undefined
Kate Ertmann (33:10):
Which could be three
people that are verymuch individuals.
So when you thinkabout harmony music,
they're different
Gabrielle Birchak: notes, (33:18):
undefined
Kate Ertmann (33:19):
yeah.
And that have amathematical reason
why that they soundsso great together, it
creates such balance.
So when I would talkabout teams or I would
talk to a, a leader of ateam, again, being in a,
in business or in sportsor in a community,
whatever it might be,I. I would ask, okay,
(33:41):
do you want your teamto be in sync or do you
want to be in harmony?
'cause a lot oftimes people use
that interchangeably,those two words.
So a lot of leadersin a create a service
industry, like in anagency or something,
would say to me,okay, yes, I want to
have a harmonic team.
I'd say, great.
So the thing thatyou need to remember
is that when someoneleaves the company,
leaves the team.
(34:03):
Whatever it might be.
That means then thenext person to fill
that position is eithergoing to need to be
exactly that pieceof pie, that now that
left, they need to beexactly that, for that
to be harmonious again.
Or folks who are leftbehind either gonna need
to be able to take upthat other part of the
harmonic part that left.
(34:23):
There are others thatcan take over for
that missing voice.
And then I can go intoa whole thing about
how you write up.
Gabrielle Birchak: I love that (34:30):
undefined
Kate Ertmann: job descriptions. (34:30):
undefined
You gotta write themup so they're not about
an individual needto write 'em about
the responsibilities.
But then I get into awhole nerdy thing about
organizational design,and I'm not gonna do
that to you right now.
Gabrielle Birchak (34:41):
Okay.
Now you have anotherpodcast with you.
We'll go overorganizational
design because Ilove this topic.
Wow.
I love it.
Okay, so I know we needto wrap this up, but
it gets me thinkingabout when companies
lose employees.
Kate Ertmann (34:53):
Yes.
Gabrielle Birchak: Because when one (34:54):
undefined
person leaves, thenstatistics show if
one person leaves
Kate Ertmann (34:58):
mm-hmm.
Gabrielle Birchak (34:58):
More people are gonna leave.
Kate Ertmann (34:59):
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle Birchak: And then all of a (35:00):
undefined
sudden you gottarestructure everything
all over again.
Kate Ertmann (35:03):
Uhhuh.
Gabrielle Birchak (35:04):
So this is gonna definitely
be another podcast.
Kate Ertmann: Okay, cool. (35:06):
undefined
Really?
I, I got so muchto say about that.
So yeah.
Awesome.
Next time.
Gabrielle Birchak: Oh my God. (35:11):
undefined
Kate Ertmann (35:12):
Next time on drinking
and deriving.
Gabrielle Birchak: Drinking and deriving. (35:15):
undefined
Kate Ertmann (35:16):
I love it.
It's so, that's such agreat title and it's,
Gabrielle Birchak: thank you (35:21):
undefined
Kate Ertmann: love 'cause people (35:22):
undefined
are gonna be likedrinking and driving.
That's not okay.
Like, no, no,no, no, no.
Drinking and deriving.
Gabrielle Birchak: Deriving (35:27):
undefined
Kate Ertmann (35:27):
and it's like little wink.
Haha.
We're math nerds.
Gabrielle Birchak (35:33):
Well, before we wrap up, how
can people find you?
How can they findKate loves math
on the interwebs?
Kate Ertmann (35:40):
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle Birchak (35:40):
Or even your speaking gigs.
Kate Ertmann (35:42):
Yeah.
Cool.
Primarily, you canalways find me and
find my work atKateLovesMath.com.
So there's videos andthere's audio stuff
and of course all theessays and there's
the Short Stuff, myMathnificent Wows,
which are just one word.
Quick littlebites of just this
argument or whatever.
Okay.
It's just, here's themathematical application
(36:03):
applied to real life.
There's thatkind of stuff.
But the socialsmake me angry
because that stupidalgorithm changes
all the time and oryou're a B test while
someone else is beingA tested, who knows?
And just when youthink you figure out,
here's how I can usethis to spread the
beauty of math toothers it changes.
(36:23):
So LinkedIn is a placewhere I communicate
a lot and have greatconversations, and
then these days I'm ahuge fan of Blue Sky.
It feels like theold days of Twitter,
and I can, like,I'm just making
these relationshipswith some writers
and mathematiciansthat I never could
on other platforms.
I think just 'causethey're, everyone's just
trying to, just findingeach other and feeling
(36:45):
all giddy about it.
Now, if you had askedme this question
six months ago, I'vebeen like, Threads.
Threads iswhere it's at.
That's where I, it'slike old Twitter,
blah, blah, blah.
Um, and then, yeah,I went down a hole.
So Blue Sky's whereit's at for me.
I am on Instagram,sometimes I'm on
Facebook, sometimes.
I mean, I have thoseaccounts and I'll post
things there certainly,but I'm not as.
(37:05):
Active.
It's more outof necessity.
And then I love tospeak at conferences.
I love to do podcasts.
And honestly, Iespecially love
doing panels.
I love havingconversations, I love
having our interviews.
I love doingstuff like this.
I'm just fine and dandywith doing a 20 minute,
40 minute presentationtalking about chaos
in the workplace ortalking about using
(37:27):
how to bring teamstogether that come from
different generations.
And I'll say, thisis how you do it
using math, and thisis how you create
these healthy,long-term teams.
But I can do that.
And I love doing that.
Conversationsare the best.
Gabrielle Birchak: The conversations, the (37:38):
undefined
panels, the speeches.
Kate Ertmann (37:40):
Yeah,
Gabrielle Birchak: the website. (37:41):
undefined
KateLovesMath.com.
You're on allthe socials.
And then for peoplewho visit your website,
they gotta sign upfor the newsletter.
Kate Ertmann: Yes, please. (37:49):
undefined
Gabrielle Birchak: Because the Mathnificent (37:49):
undefined
Words, the MathnificentWords are revelations.
They're so inspiring.
I love them.
So
Kate Ertmann (37:57):
thank you.
Gabrielle Birchak (37:57):
Um, if, if you're listening
to this podcast, pleasego to KateLovesMath.com
and sign up for thenewsletter and get
the Mathnificent Wordsare so wonderful.
Kate Ertmann: Yes, please. (38:06):
undefined
And just, yeah, evenlike unabashedly,
y'all know the moresubscribers you get the
better that everybodyknows how it works.
I have this listof my Top 10 Books.
Gabrielle Birchak (38:17):
Yes.
Kate Ertmann (38:17):
And why they're my
Top 10 Math Books.
And you can get thatand subscribe at
the same time, whichis a lovely little
thing and people canunsubscribe at any time.
But I send twoemails a month.
It's not a ton.
Uh, it's,
Gabrielle Birchak: it's not a lot. (38:29):
undefined
Kate Ertmann (38:30):
It's just enough to just
to say, Hey, I'mthinking of this.
And.
Uh, have youthought about this
and it's great.
Gabrielle Birchak: And keep the (38:35):
undefined
math brain going.
Kate Ertmann (38:37):
Exactly.
Gabrielle Birchak: Exactly. (38:37):
undefined
So I don't know how toclose this out because
I'm having so much funand I don't wanna hang
up, but I guess I shouldstop recording now.
Okay.
Okay.
...and that brings us to the end of today's
episode with thebrilliant Kate Ertmann.
If you loved ourconversation and
wanna keep exploringmath in a fun and
accessible way be sureto check out her blog
(38:59):
at KateLovesMath.com.
There you'll findher Mathnificent Word
of the day where shebreaks down quirky,
surprising and thoughtprovoking mathematical
terms and shows howthey apply to real life.
You can also findher information on
her speaking and youcan reach out to her
through that website.
Again, it isKateLovesMath.com.
(39:21):
It's a fantastic blog.
I'm a big fan,obviously.
You can also followKate on social media.
Just search for KateLoves Math on your
favorite platforms toget your daily dose of
math and wisdom and wit.
As always, thank youfor tuning into Math!
Science!
History!.
If you enjoyedthis episode, don't
forget to subscribe.
Leave a review and shareit with fellow math and
(39:43):
science enthusiasts.
And remember, mathisn't just in textbooks.
It's in the way wethink, the way we create
and the way we shapethe world around us.
And in today'scase, it's also a
phenomenal way tostart a friendship.
Until next time,Carpe diem.
And then I, it's almost
like we've alreadybeen drinking and
it's not even noon.
Kate Ertmann (00:06):
Well, I dunno about you, but No.
Okay.
No I haven't.
I'm just drinking water.
Gabrielle Birchak: Welcome to Math, science (00:11):
undefined
History, a podcastdedicated to bringing
the topics of math andscience to you through
the lens of history.
It's still Women'sHistory Month, and I am
still focusing on theawesomeness of women.
In today's episode, Iam interviewing Kate
...Ertmann from theblog Kate Loves Math
with an Asterisk.
I'm Gabrielle Birchak.
I'm an author anda speaker with a
(00:33):
background in math,science, and journalism.
And by the time you'redone listening to
this, you will find alove for math that you
never thought you had.
Kate Ertmann bringsa fascinating and
unexpected journeyinto the world
of mathematics.
Before she turned 30,Kate had already made
her mark in film andtelevision starting as a
(00:54):
child actor in New YorkCity and later working
as an indie filmmaker,TV commercial producer
and digital producer.
But it was when shestarted integrating
3D animation intoher projects that
she had an epiphanymath and science.
Her longtimepassions weren't just
behind the scenes.
They were integralto everything
(01:15):
that she loved.
In 2022, she launchedKate Loves Math
with an asterisk.
It is a blog filled withinsightful math centric
essays that explorethe why behind life's
complexities and offera mathematical lens for
understanding the world.
Kate is even on theeditorial board for
the MathematicalAssociation of America's
(01:36):
Math Values blog.
Bridging the gap betweenacademic mathematics
and the everyday world.
She and I had so muchto talk about and I
have to admit, I totallyfangirled the interview.
She is so awesome,and we have since
decided that we'redefinitely going to
have to have podcastagain because this one.
(01:58):
Was way too much fun.
That being said, inthis episode, we're
gonna dive into Kate'sjourney, her passion for
making math relatableand how she applies
mathematical thinkingto business, creativity,
and life itself.
Let's welcome KateErtmann of Kate
loves Math to Math!
Science!
History!
Kate Ertmann withKate Loves Math.
It is such a joy tohave you on Math!
(02:21):
Science!
History!
I've been reading yourblog and I feel like you
and I connect because wehave so much in common.
We are both formeractresses and we
both just love math.
So how are you today?
Kate Ertmann: I'm doing okay. (02:36):
undefined
And and I, everythingyou just said, I
completely 100000000%agree with because I
think it's unusual that,what do you call it?
Venn diagram ofprofessional actor
and someone who lovesmath and likes to
talk about math withother people and get
excited about math.
Those two things.
It's rare.
It's rare.
Gabrielle Birchak: It is. (02:56):
undefined
It is really rareand sometimes, okay,
now we're just goingoff the questions.
I'm listening tothat sometimes, like
if you're ever outwith somebody, you
go into math and theyhave no idea what
you're talking about.
Do you everexperience that?
Kate Ertmann (03:09):
I think more like someone
will be like, problemtrying to problem
solve something.
You go out with friendsand they're like, oh,
this happened today, or.
I am working with thisperson and trying to
do that, and so muchof my math research and
writing is what I'veactually just recently
learned is calledsociophysics or referred
to as sociophysics.
(03:29):
So it's using mathand math tools to,
to try to understandhuman behavior and
societal phenomenonand things like that.
And that's just,that's what I'm drawn
to is about the mathof relationships.
So when I'm out withfriends and my husband
knows this also, thathe'll see it in my
face where someone'stalking about how
(03:49):
I don't know how todo this or how to do
that, and how can thiskind of relationship
thing exist.
Whatever, and I'lljust be sitting there
ha, wanting to saysomething, but I've been
here before and I knowfor a couple drinks in,
no one's gonna hear it.
They're just gonna lookat me and be like, Aw,
Kate, Kate, and yourfun little math stuff.
I'm like, butI can help you.
(04:13):
So, yeah.
Yeah.
Gabrielle Birchak: Oh my gosh. (04:14):
undefined
The biting ofthe tongue.
I am all too familiarwith that one.
Yes.
Yes.
Kate Ertmann (04:20):
And it's, you know, I mean, it's
also just wanting totalk and be heard.
They don't necessarily,they're not asking for
assistance or support inany very specific way.
So I'm like, mm-hmm.
I'll just, I'll waitto see if someone asks
me, then I can help oroffer help or whatever.
And sometimes it'sjust, it's taken me
a while to understandthat this isn't a, that
(04:41):
math is not fascinatingfor everyone.
Weird.
I don't get it, but
Gabrielle Birchak: I don't either. (04:44):
undefined
Kate Ertmann: Supposedly. (04:45):
undefined
Apparently it's not.
Yeah, I'll justkeep it to myself.
Maybe make a note onthe side and think,
oh, maybe I'll writesomething about that
sort of situation.
Change the names.
Gabrielle Birchak: But don't people (04:56):
undefined
realize that math iswhere the party's at?
Kate Ertmann (05:00):
Girl.
Yes.
I mean, I actually,I think so many times
people think the party'sat science and I'm
like, yeah, there'sa party there, but
there'd be no scienceparty if there wasn't
a math party first, so,
Gabrielle Birchak: exactly. (05:14):
undefined
Mm-hmm.
And there's alwaysthat whole drinking
and deriving thing.
Mm-hmm.
It says fun, likedrinking and deriving.
Kate Ertmann: Drinking and deriving. (05:23):
undefined
Now that's a goodname for something.
Maybe not aband, but, Hmm.
I'm making a note.
Gabrielle Birchak: Here you go. (05:30):
undefined
I don't know, maybe,maybe we could
have it adjunctpodcast together.
Kate Ertmann (05:36):
Okay.
I seriously, I'mmaking a note.
I really like that.
Drinking and deriving.
Wow.
Happy hour.
Hmm.
I'm liking this.
Gabrielle Birchak: Go on. (05:44):
undefined
Okay, so Iwanna find out.
You were aformer actress.
Mm-hmm.
And then youbecame a business
designer organizer.
Yeah.
Kate Ertmann (05:56):
Yeah.
Well, there'salso 3D animation
in between that
Gabrielle Birchak (05:59):
and then the 3D animation.
Give me a lowdown
Kate Ertmann (06:01):
I will
Gabrielle Birchak (06:01):
on, on your life story.
I, I, I wannahear all of this.
Kate Ertmann (06:05):
So, grew up in New York on
Long Island from theages of about seven
to I wanna say 16 ish.
I was a professionalchild actor in New York.
Did lots and lotsof commercials and
Broadway and a couplesoap operas, and I was
(06:25):
just, I was a workingactor and there'd be
times I'd be outtaschool for periods of
time and have to catchup on other things.
Went to college inOhio, Ohio University.
Went to get my degreein telecommunications.
That's what itwas called in the
late eighties.
But basically radio,tv, broadcasting, things
that are tools and stuffthat are obsolete now.
But I realizedthere was more power
(06:46):
behind the camera.
And then I, afterworking a bit after,
college in kind ofdocumentary film
work, I moved toPortland, Oregon.
At that time,there was a lot of
infomercial production.
Gabrielle Birchak (06:58):
Okay.
Kate Ertmann (06:58):
So I came to Portland
because there wasso much work here.
That's where I still am.
There was so muchwork here doing
that type of work.
Plus there was a lotof movies of the week
that were coming up.
Remember Moviesof the Week?
Gabrielle Birchak (07:10):
Aww.
I do.
Oh my gosh.
Kate Ertmann (07:12):
Yeah.
They were shooting alot of them in Portland
at this time becauseof state incentives for
the production to comeup from LA and it was
before Canada, Vancouverstarted doing all
their big incentives.
So they were comingto Portland a bunch
and they wantedjust to figure out
like how they couldput something more.
In there during thistime when a lot of
people, I guess, werechanging the station,
(07:34):
because infomercialsalways felt like
a TV show or some,that's why you stayed
and watched them.
That was right at thetime when Toy Story came
out and somehow theseworlds collided of 3D
animation and beingable to show the inner
workings of a vacuumor how a Boflex machine
works, stuff like that.
And in producingthose commercials,
the 3D animators thatI could find were
(07:56):
amazing creatives.
And some of them werelike dangerous enough
to know how to invoicefor their work and
track their hours.
And a couple ofthem started an
animation company,3D animation company.
And as so many thingshappen in life, you
get asked a questionat one point in your
life that you're like,yes, I'm gonna do that.
And so I was asked tobe their partner in this
3D animation company.
(08:18):
And I said, yeah,yeah, I'll do that.
And I ended up doingthat for 15 years
and love 3D animationbecause though I'm not
a 3D animator and neverbecame a 3D animator, I
knew how to talk aboutit because it's this
beautiful mix of mathscience and creative and
I just, I flippin lovedit and I still love it.
(08:38):
Yeah.
So the other partnersleft and I ended
up running thisanimation company
on my own somehow.
So did that 15 years,sold the company,
then went on to dothe organizational
design with startups.
So I. Basically that'swhat I learned from
all those years ofthe animation world of
running a company, wasthat the part I really
enjoyed was puttingthe structure of it
together, the blueprintof it, and I liked
(09:01):
working with folks whohad this great idea
and they were able toget funding, but they
didn't know how to buildthe company part of it.
And I loved working,especially with females.
I wanted to allow themto be able to work on
their product or theirservice and they could
get their funding.
And I could just be inthe background making
all the spreadsheets,designing it out
for five years doingthe infrastructure
(09:23):
of this is how youwould do hiring and
making that, and thengiving that to them.
And my last taskwould always be
hiring the COO.
Basically be takingall the stuff that
I had made, I'dhand it to them.
Then I'd kind of justwalk backwards outta
the building and belike, bye, good luck.
And then go onto the next one.
And I did that for likeclose to seven years,
(09:44):
I would say, and itwas during pandemic
times that I starteddoing Kate Loves Math.
There you go.
That's my long story.
It's
Gabrielle Birchak: gone very well because (09:53):
undefined
now you're on theeditorial board of the
Mathematical AssociationAmerica's Blog
Column Math Matters.
Kate Ertmann (10:01):
I have.
That was thescariest part for me.
Like for real, it wasthat the mathematicians
would, quote unquote,find me out, know that I
do not have an advanceddegree in mathematics.
Yeah.
Open arms.
I went to one of their,went to Math Fest in
2023 I think it was,and Wow, what a lovely
(10:22):
group of humans.
You found this littlething to talk about and
you start geeking outtogether, and then Yes,
they're understanding.
They're like, wait,you don't have a
advanced math degree,and I'm all sheepish.
I'm like, no, Ido not, but I read
all like "You're amathematician." "Oh,
no, no I'm not." "Yesyou are." "You think,
you breathe, you lovemathematics, and that's
a mathematician."and I realized, oh,
(10:43):
I'm talking to peoplewho are Gen X, my
generation or younger.
And I realized in myhead, mathematician
equaled of course,like older white guy
who's curmudgeony,crabby, and would be
pushing back on mesaying, I did all this.
That's, if you didn'tdo all that, there's
no way you're amathematician like me.
(11:04):
I found out that, ohno, there's actual real
humans now that arelovely mathematicians
and don't feel alldefensive about that.
They have these advanceddegrees and I don't,
they just are happythat there's this
enjoyment about maththat we can share
Gabrielle Birchak: Exactly. (11:19):
undefined
That's a world thatembraces us because
I don't have advanceddegrees in math.
Kate Ertmann (11:23):
Yeah.
Gabrielle Birchak: I think we're just (11:24):
undefined
stuck with thatstereotype in our head.
'cause that'sthe environment
we grew up in.
Kate Ertmann (11:29):
Right.
Gabrielle Birchak (11:29):
It's like a mathematician
is somebody with a PhDwho's been teaching in
the professorial area?
Kate Ertmann (11:34):
Yeah.
Gabrielle Birchak: For 20 some years. (11:35):
undefined
It's like, no, no,we live, eat, and
breathe this stuff.
We are mathematicians.
Yes.
Kate Ertmann (11:41):
Yes.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And it's, I feel likeit's just recently
that I've owned that.
And when I am postingor I'm writing an email
or whatever, I willidentify myself as,
I'm a mathematician.
My name is Kate Ertmann.
Gabrielle Birchak: You are! (11:53):
undefined
And here's the thing,here's what I wanna,
'cause it's Women'sHistory Month.
Kate Ertmann (11:57):
Yes.
Gabrielle Birchak: And I know that as (11:58):
undefined
women we're often.
Put in the corner,nobody puts baby
in the corner.
We're often put inthe corner and you
know, made to feelless than because we
are women in the labor women in academia.
How did you come toterms with imposter
syndrome and how didyou just get over
(12:21):
those little naggingthoughts in the back?
'cause I have mine,I have my imposter
syndrome thoughtsin the back of my
head all the time.
Yeah.
How do youget over that?
Kate Ertmann: Ha ha ha ha ha. (12:29):
undefined
Um.
Gabrielle Birchak (12:32):
Is that a touchy subject?
Kate Ertmann: No, no, no, no. (12:33):
undefined
It's not a touchysubject at all.
It really isn't.
I think that my pauseis because I don't
believe that a hundredpercent have gotten
over it, but I wouldsay that certainly
having a good group offriends or colleagues,
peers that you know,will basically.
(12:56):
Almost get upset withyou if you talk down
about yourself and aboutyour accomplishments.
So I have a healthygroup of folks who
have basically onestep below berate me
for when I talk downabout anything and
I'm like about myself.
I'm like, oh, okay.
Cool.
Got it.
I got it, gotit, got it.
I'm good at this.
I'm good at this.
This is I'm, yes,I'm just as good.
And for me, it startedwith being in the
(13:17):
tech community andbeing in high tech
and startup community.
And again, being with.
Other women.
Once you have otherpeople confirm the,
those deep thoughtswhere you're questioning
stuff and you haveother people confirm.
Yeah, I wasthinking that too.
It just, it helps washit away out of yourself.
Gabrielle Birchak: We'll be right back (13:37):
undefined
after a quick wordfrom my advertisers.
One of myfavorite mantras.
My brother uses BeAfraid and Do it anyway.
Kate Ertmann (13:45):
Oh, that's really good.
Oh, that's really,really good.
Yeah.
Oh, I love that.
Gabrielle Birchak: Well, that's a Steve (13:50):
undefined
Birchak quote, justto let you know.
Kate Ertmann (13:52):
I love it.
Gabrielle Birchak: Yeah, you are afraid. (13:53):
undefined
There we go.
Kate Ertmann (13:55):
Taking out my pen, writing
that one down.
Be afraid todo it anyway.
Hmm.
Which of course fora long time I would
say that I was themonarch of studying
the risk out of risk.
So of course when Iwould finally figure
out how to make thatjump to do this thing,
because I would be like,okay, I would do this.
If this happens, I,this, this happens,
these opportunitieswould go away.
(14:16):
So yeah, this kind ofgoes with it where.
Be afraid.
You say be afraidand do it anyway.
Gabrielle Birchak (14:22):
Yeah.
Be afraid anddo it anyway.
Kate Ertmann (14:23):
That's what I need to, that's
gonna replace mytendency to study the
risk at risk, because Imiss the opportunities
because of that.
Gabrielle Birchak: Oh, oh my gosh. (14:30):
undefined
Kate Ertmann (14:32):
Right.
Gabrielle Birchak (14:32):
Okay.
So you, like you say,you're the monarch
of evaluating therisk out of risk.
That's the tech brain.
That's a tech thingright there, because
you're always lookingfor what fires
do we have goingon down the road
Kate Ertmann (14:43):
mm-hmm.
Gabrielle Birchak: That we're going to (14:43):
undefined
need to address oncewe go down this path.
Kate Ertmann (14:46):
Mm-hmm.
I'm definitely systemsoriented person.
I love building systems.
That's why I loveddoing the organizational
design work ofbuilding a system for
a company, essentially.
And anytime you builda system, anytime
you build a projectplan, whatever, it's
going to go, maybenot off the rails,
but it's not gonnago according to plan.
(15:06):
It's, it just won't.
And I would get excusesfrom a lot of creatives
actually, who wouldsay, it's never gonna
go the way that Iplan it to, so why
bother making a plan?
And I'm like, ah, youneed to make a plan
because you need toknow when, you need
to be aware of whenit goes off the plan.
And then that way, maybeyou don't know exactly
what to do, but you knowthat something is not
(15:28):
going according to plan.
You know, visuallythink about it.
If you go, if you'rehiking on a trail and
you take the wrongpath off that trail,
it bifurcates orsomething, then the
sooner you know theeasier it is to get back
to that, to the pointthat you wanna be at.
Gabrielle Birchak: Yeah, I love that. (15:43):
undefined
So it's like therecould be a fire here,
we're gonna re-navigateonce we see that fire.
Kate Ertmann (15:48):
Yeah.
And you may not, youmay be able maybe.
Just going on pastthe fire, like sweet.
I can tell you teamthat we actually passed
that potential fire.
Five days ago.
It's not that hard tocreate a plan, just
create a plan, knowwhere you wanna go,
and either reverseengineer it or figure
out like what the mainstopping points are
along the way and howlong that'll take.
(16:08):
And yeah, I know, again,this is my, I try not
to be all like, howdo you not know this?
Which is thehardest thing.
It just feels sological to me.
But then I realizedthat there's so much
creative, there's a lotof creative stuff I'm
I am good at and I feelfortunate that I have
spent so much time inthe creative world, but
there's also a bunchof creative things that
I cannot nevermind, donot want to do, like
(16:32):
drawing or painting.
That kind of stuff isvery frustrating to me.
I find norelaxation at it and
Gabrielle Birchak: Oh my God, (16:39):
undefined
Kate Ertmann (16:39):
I've had so many artists, friends
who are artists say,oh, just take this.
Let's go and do oneof those fun, like
what are they thatyou drink wine and you
paint picture thing.
Gabrielle Birchak: Oh my I hate those. (16:49):
undefined
Kate Ertmann (16:50):
That sounds like hell.
I never everwant to do that.
That is horrible.
Gabrielle Birchak: I did it once and (16:57):
undefined
I was nauseous andit wasn't the wine
that made me sick.
It was the experience.
Kate Ertmann: Yep, exactly. (17:05):
undefined
I'm just like, this isnot what's in my head.
I can't do thisthe way I want to.
Just be free withit, Kate, whatever
it could be.
No.
No, I'll not.
I can relax, but thisis not how I relax.
This is this.
No,
Gabrielle Birchak: exactly. (17:17):
undefined
Kate Ertmann: No, no, no, no. (17:17):
undefined
Gabrielle Birchak: Gimme a good math (17:18):
undefined
book and I'll sit downand I'm so relaxed.
Kate Ertmann: I'm so relaxed. (17:22):
undefined
I'm like, oh my brain's,this is stimulating
and I can understandthis, and then I can
just close the book.
Take a nap.
Think about it.
Oh, I can use this.
That's lovely.
God.
Gabrielle Birchak (17:35):
Now I love reading your blog.
It is just so wonderful.
And the asterisk tell.
Tell me more aboutthe asterisk.
Kate Ertmann (17:44):
Well, if you hadn't, you
hadn't realized it yet.
I can go off on tangentsa bit and to me they
are important to thejust of a whole story,
so, most of my essays.
Yeah, I have them.
I think maybeone or two don't.
And they are justthose moments that
reminds me of this.
So it could be areference to some
something in baseball'cause I love baseball
(18:04):
and it might, andso, so it's something
that's not, , integralto understanding
whatever the maintopic is of this essay.
If you know me at all,and if you are someone
who enjoys my littleoff sense of humor.
That's where you'llreally get a lot
of my personalityis in the asterisk,
Gabrielle Birchak (18:20):
But let's talk about math.
Okay.
Those asterisks.
Kate Ertmann (18:23):
Yeah.
Gabrielle Birchak: You say they're (18:23):
undefined
not integral, butif you think about
math, oh boy.
Math has everythingthat we know about
math to this pointhas been brought to
us through foundationsover the years, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's like all ourentire mathematical
foundations arebuilt on asterisks,
on Kate's asterisks.
All these asteriskshave built up your blog.
Much like math overthe years is built up
(18:46):
where we are today.
Kate Ertmann (18:47):
Oh my God.
You are givingme the best.
I can't wait to hearthis, uh, podcast back.
'cause I'm gonna justrip out that part
and then put that onthe asterisk page of
you describing thatbecause that's perfect.
Yes.
Like an asterisk.
This part.
Oh boy.
Oh, the possibilities.
Opportunities.
This is great.
Yeah.
Hit me in theright place there.
(19:07):
I'm like, that is it.
Gabrielle Birchak (19:08):
Yeah.
That's what yourasterisks are.
They're foundational.
It's like whenyou read, okay.
You read a math bookand you know how it has
an equation, and thenit has a letter with in
parentheses on the side.
Kate Ertmann (19:19):
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle Birchak: Because it references (19:19):
undefined
a second equation.
Kate Ertmann (19:22):
Yeah.
Gabrielle Birchak: You know what I'm (19:22):
undefined
talking about.
Kate Ertmann (19:23):
Excellent.
Gabrielle Birchak: That's exactly what (19:23):
undefined
your asterisks are.
Oh,
Kate Ertmann (19:26):
oh my.
See, I feellike they're.
Or that they're moreflippant things.
But now that I thinkabout it, there's
definitely times whileI'm writing, I'm like,
that's too off course.
I'm not gonna put thatin as an asterisk.
Yeah, it does support.
Gosh, you're,you're awesome.
Gabrielle Birchak: Well, that's how I see. (19:41):
undefined
That's why I love,that's why I wanted
to bring up thatquestion, because I
love these asterisks.
They're like,oh my gosh.
It's like readinga math book.
This is so cool.
Kate Ertmann (19:50):
Thank you!
I love it.
I love it.
Gabrielle Birchak: We'll be right back (19:53):
undefined
after a quick wordfrom my advertisers.
I love this blogbecause you go into
chaos and it's one ofmy favorite subjects.
Tell me about your blogand what inspired it
and how you have thisaffinity for chaos.
Kate Ertmann (20:12):
Yeah, so I'm a little obsessed
with it, with chaos,the linguistics of it.
Okay, so I firstread about chaos.
And read about dynamicsand all of that stuff
in Steven Strogatz oneof his books and such
a fantastic explainerof mathematics.
His more well-knownbooks are, I'm
saying this now,I'm like spinning
(20:33):
my chair around.
What's the X one?
Oh, help me out here.
Gabrielle Birchak: Joy of X. (20:36):
undefined
Kate Ertmann (20:37):
Joy of X. Found it!
Yes.
Joy of X. He'swritten a bunch of
books and he's writesfor New York Times.
Amazing, amazingmathematician.
And he first wrote,though, the first thing
I read by him thathe wrote before, Joy
of X is a book calledCalculus of Friendship.
And it is thissuch, this personal,
(20:58):
beautiful book aboutthis relationship he
had with his calculusteacher in high school,
and there is a sectionthat he talks about how
he started focusing indynamics and telling
his high school teacherabout that and the way
he talked about it wassuch passion and joy
in all the discoveryof it, and also chaos
(21:19):
being in the scopeof all the different
mathematical theoriesand concepts out there.
That chaos isrelatively young.
It's like a little over50 years old compared to
hundreds and hundreds ofyears old for many other
concepts and theories.
And when he describedthat chaos is not
about something beingoutta control, that
it's about a newpattern being developed
and it's actuallyvery in control.
(21:40):
And here's all thethings that prove
that it's somethingthat's in control.
I realized I just hadthat moment of, well,
why do people saysomething is chaotic?
Especially people whoare sports announcers.
I watch a lot of motorsports and every time
someone would say, oh,it's getting chaotic,
or That was chaotic.
Anything chaotic.
I, again, veryexpressive person and
(22:00):
especially when you'rearound people that
you're comfortable with,like your partner and
some close friends.
I would, not inwardly,but like very outwardly
be rolling my eyes,and it's that whole
like, actually, that'snot the right use of
the word and whatever.
Yes, I would do that,and it just became one
of those, I don't know,glowing words in the sky
that only I could see.
(22:22):
I started just digginginto it and teaching
myself more and moreabout, and learning
more and more about it.
The big boom for meabout it all is that,
oh, chaos is notmathematical chaos.
True chaos is not onlyabout things being
in control, that isjust a new pattern has
developed, but thatit has steps to it.
(22:42):
And when somethingdoes go chaotic, well
that doesn't mean thatwe, outside of this,
that are watching it,it does not mean that
we have no power.
Doesn't mean that weput our hands up and
say, oh, well that gotchaotic and or it is
chaotic and what areyou gonna do when chaos
happens in real life?
(23:02):
I so strongly believethat it gets me crazy
one, when someoneuses the word chaos
incorrectly andusually they use it
to incite people toget all, it's crazy.
It's outta control.
It's like, no, it's not.
It's actuallyin control.
That would be disorder.
When you seesomething and you
think it's chaos,no, it's disorder.
Whole other storywith disorder.
But with chaos, notonly does it mean that
(23:24):
there's new patterndeveloping, it means
that you can actuallyevaluate it, see how far
along it is, and there'sall these different
things of checking this.
There's strangeattractors and there's
basin of attraction, andthere's these very mathy
words and mathy phrasesthat can be applied
to real life, that youcan evaluate how far
(23:44):
along this trajectoryof chaos is, and you can
do something to change.
You're not gonnachange everything and
you're not gonna, youare not gonna stomp
it out or it's notgoing to go away.
Again, the train's leftthe station, but you
can absolutely mostcertainly nudge it.
Nudge it to get off thatlittle path that it's
on, or you can change.
(24:06):
The outcome, the finaloutcome of where that
trajectory is going.
And so I believewe have power when
chaos is around.
And right now there'ssome chaos going on.
Gabrielle Birchak: My gosh, I know. (24:17):
undefined
And all we can do iscontrol our own chaos.
But I love that youbring up nudging things.
Yeah.
It's the wholeconcept of when
there's attractors
Kate Ertmann (24:27):
Yeah.
Gabrielle Birchak: in chaos. (24:27):
undefined
And how it createsa pattern that
develops withinthat chaotic system.
Kate Ertmann (24:34):
Yeah.
Gabrielle Birchak: And all it takes (24:35):
undefined
is a little nudge.
Yeah.
To make it go in adifferent direction.
So it's empowering,actually, what you're
talking about isvery empowering.
Kate Ertmann (24:44):
I agree.
I agree.
So many times whensomething happens and
that's upsetting andcertainly you feel
like you don't have anycontrol, but rarely.
Especially those ofus that have privilege
and have position inthe world compared
to the majority ofothers, we do have
power to do something.
(25:05):
Is it easy?
No.
Do we have to makethis nudge that
we're gonna do?
Does that need tobecome a priority?
If we're gonnaactually, if the nudge
is going to nudge andhave a result that we
want to have, yeah.
It's not gonna besomething you can just.
Like you take out thegarbage, you're like,
oh yeah, I gotta dothat little nudge thing.
No, we're gonna,it's gonna need to
be a collective,probably a community
(25:27):
coming together towork on it together.
But are we powerless?
Absolutely not.
We have power.
We have power.
Gabrielle Birchak (25:35):
Yes.
Yes.
Now, back to theconcept of disorder.
Do you think we havepower over disorder?
Kate Ertmann (25:42):
Nah.
I mean, disorderis, that disorder
will happen.
This all happens incomplex systems and
events happen and theywill be disorderly
or they could bechaotic, and disorder
is slipping on.
The banana peeldisorder is.
Uh, car accident or loseyour wallet, whatever.
(26:03):
But when it's a patternthat keeps happening
over and over and likean exact pattern, so
I'll say to someone,yeah, you might slip
on a banana peel everyday, but unless that
banana peel, I mean,one, wow, you're clumsy.
Watch whereyou're going.
But two, for itto be a chaotic.
Chaos going onin your life with
that banana peel.
That banana peelwould have to be in
(26:24):
the exact same placeevery single day.
And same time, like allthe variables have to be
exactly the same everyday, and the condition's
exactly the same everytime it happens to you.
If otherwise, it'sjust disorder.
It's still reallyannoying, but it's
also a very commonpart of life.
(26:46):
And the thing withdisorder, I find.
That happens is thatif you do get in a car
accident a few timesa year and it is in
the same area of town,we have a tendency to
want to avoid fixingsomething, not even
fixing, avoid, liketrying to figure out
the remedy to why thatwas happening and just
(27:08):
as humans, and instead,we will do these
workarounds, that willusually take more time.
'cause you're notgonna, you refuse to
drive through thatarea of town anymore.
So you're gonna.
Take the highwaythat goes around or
whatever it might be.
Gabrielle Birchak: Or write the city. (27:20):
undefined
So they put in astreetlight, you
know, let's nudge it.
Kate Ertmann: Yes, exactly. (27:24):
undefined
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, you can nudgein disorder, but it's
much easier to justbe like, la, la, la.
Just let it keephappening to
other people.
And I will go overhere and it's like,
but nothing fixed.
What washappening there?
So.
Oy.
Gabrielle Birchak: I don't know if (27:39):
undefined
you think about it.
Could disorder possiblybe an element of chaos
that can be rectifiedthrough nudging?
Could we nudge disorderinto a state of chaos so
that it is manageable?
I, no, now I'm justthrowing out ideas.
Kate Ertmann: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (27:55):
undefined
But I would, I couldhave an answer to that
if I read my chapteron disorder because
I can't remember offthe top of my head.
Um, uh, my instinctis to say, to say
no to your questionbecause why Kate?
Why is it not.
(28:16):
It has.
Yeah.
It has something todo with the dynamics
of the system, howit's effective.
Gabrielle Birchak (28:21):
Okay.
Kate Ertmann (28:21):
But I don't know what it is
offhand 'cause my brainand memory are for shit.
Gabrielle Birchak: Mm-hmm. (28:27):
undefined
Well, it's not even,I'm not even noon.
We haven't had our,our coffee and, you
know.
Kate Ertmann (28:33):
But do you do that also?
Like, I do this, Iactually relate to
my husband and my, myhusband's a writer also,
and he and some otherfriends who are writers
where when you've notread something that
you wrote for a while,you put it out there
and then you come backto it and you read
it and you're like,damn, that's good.
Gabrielle Birchak: Oh my gosh. (28:50):
undefined
Lately I've beensaying that a lot.
I'm like, I obviouslydidn't write this
when I had AI becausethis is really good.
Kate Ertmann (28:57):
This just really good.
That's just, I havegotten to the point,
and I'm okay if thisgoes in the podcast.
I have gotten to thepoint in writing as
someone who has gonethrough menopause,
which I am, I dunnoif I'm proud to say,
but I know it's partof being a woman.
I'm fine.
Gabrielle Birchak: We've survived it. (29:14):
undefined
Yes.
Kate Ertmann (29:15):
Yeah.
Yes, exactly.
And I'm lucky.
I did not have alot of outwardly
physical things thatcame up for me that
changed, that weresymptoms or results or
whatever of menopause.
But the big one for mewas that the fog brain
and my brain just, whoa.
Just, it was amazinghow long it would take
me to write a simpleemail would take me
(29:37):
truly three hoursto write, and it was
very, very frustrating.
Anyway, one the thingsthat now that I'm on
the other side of itand HRTs, I love my
hormones, don't takethem away from me.
Um, the thing I starteddoing was when I would
have, when I wouldbe doing research, I
would start puttingmy initials, my own
(29:59):
initials, but KE colon,and then I would write
my notes and then I'mcontinuing do research.
And so.
I would know whenI would go back and
look at those notes.
'cause I keep themcategorized where
I have things aboutchaos and where I have
things about disorderor I have things about
parallels, whatever.
I'd go back and Iwould read, I'd be
(30:19):
like, oh, this is from,this is research, from
this book, whatever.
And then I wouldrealize, oh, that's
a conclusion Iwrote of my own.
And I know it's notfrom the book because
I wrote KE next toit, but do I remember
actually writing it?
No, not at all.
I don't rememberhaving a thought.
I don't remember that.
That's my conclusion.
(30:40):
So, um, yeah, I triedto like, I don't know
what that's, there'sgotta be a name for it.
Of noting, likedenoting or, or making.
Basically puttingthese little reminders
down like, no, thisis your conclusion.
Good job Kate.
Like Kate fromtwo years ago.
Like, good jobsaying future Kate.
Gabrielle Birchak: I like that. (30:58):
undefined
That is brilliant.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I used just put astar next to it.
That's how I know it.
To mine, it's got alittle star next to it
Kate Ertmann (31:05):
and you know that that's
what comes after thestars is your own.
Gabrielle Birchak (31:09):
Yeah.
Kate Ertmann: Put a note on it (31:09):
undefined
Gabrielle Birchak (31:09):
Yeah.
Kate Ertmann (31:10):
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle Birchak (31:10):
And, and then I have the
flags, the sticky flags.
Oh, yeah.
And I have all theseflags in all my books.
Mm-hmm.
And I know, like thepink ones are mine.
Kate Ertmann: Oh, I like that. (31:17):
undefined
Oh, that's really good.
See, I go color codingon my sticky tabs
with like subjects.
Interesting.
So I have, so if Iam writing, I assign
whatever a color to acertain essay, a certain
topic, I'll put thosein the different books
and on some of thosesticky tabs, they're
(31:37):
all of a sudden I comeacross a KE colon.
I'm like, oh, okay.
That's my conclusionabout that.
That's actually notright for the book, huh?
We all have ourprocesses and
Gabrielle Birchak: You're an active reader. (31:48):
undefined
That's wonderful.
I love that.
Kate Ertmann: Oh boy do I read? (31:51):
undefined
I love it.
Gabrielle Birchak: Oh my gosh. (31:53):
undefined
Kate Ertmann (31:54):
Delicious.
Gabrielle Birchak: We'll be right back (31:56):
undefined
after a quick wordfrom my advertisers.
What was the mostunexpected place
where you found math?
Kate Ertmann: Unexpected? (32:06):
undefined
I do go back to harmonyall the time because
not so much harmony when... And it is Harmony.
Okay.
I am, I'm, I'mjust gonna put a
line in the sand.
There it is.
Harmony.
Gabrielle Birchak (32:20):
Okay.
Kate Ertmann (32:21):
So I, I mean, I would say
obviously harmony,anything I'm having
to do with music,there's math in it that
seems obvious to me.
That be it, the notes ona scale or just so many
different things aremathematical in music.
But with harmony,specifically, when I
(32:41):
realized that I couldtalk to folks on a team
in the workplace, on abusiness team, or again,
like in a communityorganization, whatever
it might be, that it'sa talking about harmony
and sync or even sports.
I have done it withsports where harmony
(33:03):
is all about therebeing measured being
at least three parts,and it could be more
than that, but atleast three parts.
Gabrielle Birchak: Mm-hmm. (33:10):
undefined
Kate Ertmann (33:10):
Which could be three
people that are verymuch individuals.
So when you thinkabout harmony music,
they're different
Gabrielle Birchak: notes, (33:18):
undefined
Kate Ertmann (33:19):
yeah.
And that have amathematical reason
why that they soundsso great together, it
creates such balance.
So when I would talkabout teams or I would
talk to a, a leader of ateam, again, being in a,
in business or in sportsor in a community,
whatever it might be,I. I would ask, okay,
(33:41):
do you want your teamto be in sync or do you
want to be in harmony?
'cause a lot oftimes people use
that interchangeably,those two words.
So a lot of leadersin a create a service
industry, like in anagency or something,
would say to me,okay, yes, I want to
have a harmonic team.
I'd say, great.
So the thing thatyou need to remember
is that when someoneleaves the company,
leaves the team.
(34:03):
Whatever it might be.
That means then thenext person to fill
that position is eithergoing to need to be
exactly that pieceof pie, that now that
left, they need to beexactly that, for that
to be harmonious again.
Or folks who are leftbehind either gonna need
to be able to take upthat other part of the
harmonic part that left.
(34:23):
There are others thatcan take over for
that missing voice.
And then I can go intoa whole thing about
how you write up.
Gabrielle Birchak: I love that (34:30):
undefined
Kate Ertmann: job descriptions. (34:30):
undefined
You gotta write themup so they're not about
an individual needto write 'em about
the responsibilities.
But then I get into awhole nerdy thing about
organizational design,and I'm not gonna do
that to you right now.
Gabrielle Birchak (34:41):
Okay.
Now you have anotherpodcast with you.
We'll go overorganizational
design because Ilove this topic.
Wow.
I love it.
Okay, so I know we needto wrap this up, but
it gets me thinkingabout when companies
lose employees.
Kate Ertmann (34:53):
Yes.
Gabrielle Birchak: Because when one (34:54):
undefined
person leaves, thenstatistics show if
one person leaves
Kate Ertmann (34:58):
mm-hmm.
Gabrielle Birchak (34:58):
More people are gonna leave.
Kate Ertmann (34:59):
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle Birchak: And then all of a (35:00):
undefined
sudden you gottarestructure everything
all over again.
Kate Ertmann (35:03):
Uhhuh.
Gabrielle Birchak (35:04):
So this is gonna definitely
be another podcast.
Kate Ertmann: Okay, cool. (35:06):
undefined
Really?
I, I got so muchto say about that.
So yeah.
Awesome.
Next time.
Gabrielle Birchak: Oh my God. (35:11):
undefined
Kate Ertmann (35:12):
Next time on drinking
and deriving.
Gabrielle Birchak: Drinking and deriving. (35:15):
undefined
Kate Ertmann (35:16):
I love it.
It's so, that's such agreat title and it's,
Gabrielle Birchak: thank you (35:21):
undefined
Kate Ertmann: love 'cause people (35:22):
undefined
are gonna be likedrinking and driving.
That's not okay.
Like, no, no,no, no, no.
Drinking and deriving.
Gabrielle Birchak: Deriving (35:27):
undefined
Kate Ertmann (35:27):
and it's like little wink.
Haha.
We're math nerds.
Gabrielle Birchak (35:33):
Well, before we wrap up, how
can people find you?
How can they findKate loves math
on the interwebs?
Kate Ertmann (35:40):
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle Birchak (35:40):
Or even your speaking gigs.
Kate Ertmann (35:42):
Yeah.
Cool.
Primarily, you canalways find me and
find my work atKateLovesMath.com.
So there's videos andthere's audio stuff
and of course all theessays and there's
the Short Stuff, myMathnificent Wows,
which are just one word.
Quick littlebites of just this
argument or whatever.
Okay.
It's just, here's themathematical application
(36:03):
applied to real life.
There's thatkind of stuff.
But the socialsmake me angry
because that stupidalgorithm changes
all the time and oryou're a B test while
someone else is beingA tested, who knows?
And just when youthink you figure out,
here's how I can usethis to spread the
beauty of math toothers it changes.
(36:23):
So LinkedIn is a placewhere I communicate
a lot and have greatconversations, and
then these days I'm ahuge fan of Blue Sky.
It feels like theold days of Twitter,
and I can, like,I'm just making
these relationshipswith some writers
and mathematiciansthat I never could
on other platforms.
I think just 'causethey're, everyone's just
trying to, just findingeach other and feeling
(36:45):
all giddy about it.
Now, if you had askedme this question
six months ago, I'vebeen like, Threads.
Threads iswhere it's at.
That's where I, it'slike old Twitter,
blah, blah, blah.
Um, and then, yeah,I went down a hole.
So Blue Sky's whereit's at for me.
I am on Instagram,sometimes I'm on
Facebook, sometimes.
I mean, I have thoseaccounts and I'll post
things there certainly,but I'm not as.
(37:05):
Active.
It's more outof necessity.
And then I love tospeak at conferences.
I love to do podcasts.
And honestly, Iespecially love
doing panels.
I love havingconversations, I love
having our interviews.
I love doingstuff like this.
I'm just fine and dandywith doing a 20 minute,
40 minute presentationtalking about chaos
in the workplace ortalking about using
(37:27):
how to bring teamstogether that come from
different generations.
And I'll say, thisis how you do it
using math, and thisis how you create
these healthy,long-term teams.
But I can do that.
And I love doing that.
Conversationsare the best.
Gabrielle Birchak: The conversations, the (37:38):
undefined
panels, the speeches.
Kate Ertmann (37:40):
Yeah,
Gabrielle Birchak: the website. (37:41):
undefined
KateLovesMath.com.
You're on allthe socials.
And then for peoplewho visit your website,
they gotta sign upfor the newsletter.
Kate Ertmann: Yes, please. (37:49):
undefined
Gabrielle Birchak: Because the Mathnificent (37:49):
undefined
Words, the MathnificentWords are revelations.
They're so inspiring.
I love them.
So
Kate Ertmann (37:57):
thank you.
Gabrielle Birchak (37:57):
Um, if, if you're listening
to this podcast, pleasego to KateLovesMath.com
and sign up for thenewsletter and get
the Mathnificent Wordsare so wonderful.
Kate Ertmann: Yes, please. (38:06):
undefined
And just, yeah, evenlike unabashedly,
y'all know the moresubscribers you get the
better that everybodyknows how it works.
I have this listof my Top 10 Books.
Gabrielle Birchak (38:17):
Yes.
Kate Ertmann (38:17):
And why they're my
Top 10 Math Books.
And you can get thatand subscribe at
the same time, whichis a lovely little
thing and people canunsubscribe at any time.
But I send twoemails a month.
It's not a ton.
Uh, it's,
Gabrielle Birchak: it's not a lot. (38:29):
undefined
Kate Ertmann (38:30):
It's just enough to just
to say, Hey, I'mthinking of this.
And.
Uh, have youthought about this
and it's great.
Gabrielle Birchak: And keep the (38:35):
undefined
math brain going.
Kate Ertmann (38:37):
Exactly.
Gabrielle Birchak: Exactly. (38:37):
undefined
So I don't know how toclose this out because
I'm having so much funand I don't wanna hang
up, but I guess I shouldstop recording now.
Okay.
Okay.
...and that brings us to the end of today's
episode with thebrilliant Kate Ertmann.
If you loved ourconversation and
wanna keep exploringmath in a fun and
accessible way be sureto check out her blog
(38:59):
at KateLovesMath.com.
There you'll findher Mathnificent Word
of the day where shebreaks down quirky,
surprising and thoughtprovoking mathematical
terms and shows howthey apply to real life.
You can also findher information on
her speaking and youcan reach out to her
through that website.
Again, it isKateLovesMath.com.
(39:21):
It's a fantastic blog.
I'm a big fan,obviously.
You can also followKate on social media.
Just search for KateLoves Math on your
favorite platforms toget your daily dose of
math and wisdom and wit.
As always, thank youfor tuning into Math!
Science!
History!.
If you enjoyedthis episode, don't
forget to subscribe.
Leave a review and shareit with fellow math and
(39:43):
science enthusiasts.
And remember, mathisn't just in textbooks.
It's in the way wethink, the way we create
and the way we shapethe world around us.
And in today'scase, it's also a
phenomenal way tostart a friendship.
Until next time,Carpe diem.
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