Activism vs. Organizing: A Deep Dive The Weaponization of Data ft Dr. David Johns

In this conversation, Dr. Raquel Martin speaks with Dr. David Johns about the critical differences between activism and organizing, particularly in the context of social justice for Black LGBTQ+ individuals and the mental health crisis facing Black youth. They discuss the alarming rise in suicide rates among Black youth, the importance of accurate data collection, and the need for community engagement and education to foster long-term change. Dr. Johns emphasizes the role of self-work and understanding systemic issues in effective activism. In this conversation, DJJ and Dr. Raquel Martin explore the complexities of data, language, and identity within the context of systemic oppression and white supremacy. They discuss the importance of understanding how language can perpetuate privilege and division, the need for community and relational organizing, and the tools necessary to combat these issues. The conversation also touches on the evolution of narratives in mental health and the importance of cultural competence in providing support to marginalized communities. In this engaging conversation, Dr. Raquel Martin and DJJ explore the complexities of parenting, particularly the tension between parental desires and children's autonomy. They discuss the significance of imaginative play, the distinction between legacy and lineage, and the importance of understanding intent versus impact in parenting. The dialogue emphasizes the need for community support and advocacy in navigating these challenges, ultimately celebrating the unique identities and desires of children.

 

Takeaways

• Activism and organizing are complementary tools for change.
• Activism focuses on immediate actions, while organizing builds community strength.
• Suicide rates among Black youth are rising, contrary to some data reports.
• Data collection often fails to capture the true scope of issues.
• Mistrust in data collection affects the accuracy of mental health statistics.
• Education is crucial for effective activism and organizing.
• Legislation targeting LGBTQ+ individuals correlates with increased mental health crises.

 Bio

Dr. David J. Johns is the CEO and executive director of the National Black Justice Coalition (NBJC), a civil rights organization for Black LGBTQ+/SGL people and those living with HIV/AIDS. Appointed by President Obama, he was the first executive director of the White House Initiative on Educational Excellence for African Americans (2013-2017). He has also served as a senior education policy advisor in the Senate and as a Congressional Black Caucus Foundation Fellow.

Dr. Johns holds a Ph.D. in sociology and education policy from Columbia University, where he also earned his master’s and bachelor’s degrees. His accolades include the Active Advocate Award at BET’s Black and Iconic celebration (2024), the Out100 list (2021), the Root100 (2013, 2014), Ebony’s Power 100 (2015), and an early career award from Columbia University (2016).

 

Episode Transcript

Dr. Raquel Martin (00:00):
Steve, Hello everyone, and welcome to Mind
your mental just a reminder thatthis podcast is not meant to be
a substitute for a relationshipwith a licensed mental health
professional. I know they arehard to find, and I get that I
have a bunch of resources on mywebsite if you need them, but I
am not your clinician. I am apsychologist, but I am not your

(00:21):
psychologist. So if you need anyspecific help, please look for
the help of a licensed mentalhealth professional. Learn all
you can learn from the podcast.Enjoy the episode, what's up,
what's up, what's up, y'all. SoI'm so happy today to be joined
by Dr David Johns. He is the CEOand Executive Director of the
National Black JusticeCoalition, aka the mbjc, a civil

(00:41):
rights organization for BlackLGBTQ plus and same gender
loving people and those livingwith HIV and AIDS, appointed by
President Obama. He was thefirst executive director of the
White House Initiative onEducational Excellence for
African Americans from 2013 to2017 he also served as a Senior
Education Policy Advisor in theSenate and as a Congressional

(01:01):
Black Caucus foundationalfellow. He holds a PhD in
Sociology and education policyfrom Columbia University, where
he also earned his master's andbachelor degrees. His accolades
include, and there are many, theactive advocate award at BTS
black and iconic celebration,the out 100 list, the route 100
list, Ebony powers 100 and anEarly Career Award from Columbia

(01:24):
University. So we are so happyto have him today. In your view,
what is the fundamentaldifference between activism and
organizing? Because you do both,so you're the perfect person to
ask

Unknown (01:35):
both. And I don't know about perfect, there are no
perfect people. Shout out to ohmy

Dr. Raquel Martin (01:39):
gosh, don't listen. No, no disclaimers, my
goodness, Lord. So let me,

Unknown (01:46):
let me say this, they are tool complimentary tools,
and they're important ways thatpeople can work together to
ultimately create change. Again,they compliment one another. So
I think I've been thinking aboutthis in the way that I would
explain this to my students if Iwere still teaching kindergarten
or third grade. So here we go.Activism. Think alliteration.

(02:08):
Activism primarily refers toactions that people can take,
often their individual,individual and or isolated, but
they're actions that people cantake to raise awareness, build a
campaign, or otherwise invitepeople into acknowledging a
particular injustice oropportunity or problem, however

(02:28):
you want to frame it, I thinkthat we benefit by using asset
based ranks. So let's namethings as opportunities. They're
often issue oriented, and cantake various forms as we're
having this conversation.Brother by Rustin, the chief
organizer and architect of theMarch on Washington for Jobs and
Freedom is over my shoulder, andhe introduced to us a lot of

(02:49):
these tactics, which includesprotest. A lot of people now use
digital media as a tool toengage in activism, writing
letters or op eds or video opeds. Boycotts are direct action.
All of those things fall underactivism. Organize can use those
tactics, but it's really aboutbuilding a structure movement

(03:12):
that includes a group ofindividuals. Co conspirator
would be a good word that comesup here, but I'm challenging
myself because we just publishedan episode of my podcast teach
the babies with Dr Chris Emden,and he challenged me to think
about not using words that aresometimes perceived as dark or
nefarious to talk about ourwork, but but the definition of

(03:35):
like CO conspires or the rootwork, the root essence of it
really refers to people who arecommitted to a particular
action. Organizing tends to bemore process oriented and
relational. So again, itinvolves working with people,
often over a defined period oftime or prolonged period of
time, and it includes grassrootsefforts that are like community

(03:58):
meetings, those might be digitalor in person, thinking about how
we organize now training. A lotof the work of nbjc includes
organizing in this way, trainingto build compassion and to build
capacity so that people canengage elected and appointed
leaders or challenge people whoare hearing misinformation and

(04:18):
disinformation and acting uponit, including by expressing
rage. And the goal there isreally to build people's
capacity so that they can engagein this work of addressing
systemic root causes. So again,activism is typically more
immediate, focusing on raisingawareness, are pushing for

(04:41):
change around a specific issue,while organizing is a systemic
approach to building communitystrength and capacity to enact
long term social change. If Iwere teaching kindergarten, I
would say, say, to say it likethis to my babies, right? So
activism is like shouting out alot about something important

(05:03):
that you really care about. Soour voices are important.
They're one of the ways that wecommunicate our dreams and
desires for changes that enableus to thrive. So imagine seeing
one of your friends beingmistreated at school. You might
decide to tell everyone what'shappened, get a big group of
friends to hold signs raisingawareness of that injustice that

(05:24):
is activism. So people whoprotest or raise awareness about
issues like bullying or climatechange are activists. On the
other hand, organizing isbecoming a captain or a leader
of an organization where yourgoal is to bring people together
to make lasting change. So it'snot just about that shouting or

(05:47):
raising awareness for the day,but it's about creating a plan
to help your group or your teamwork together over time toward a
shared goal, right? So if thegoal is to ensure that the
school, our community, ourenvironment, is one that is safe
and supportive and welcoming ofeveryone. Then you and your
friends can sit down and talkabout what changes you want to

(06:09):
see. You can develop a plan. Youcan have meetings with your
classmates and other educators.You can make protests. Protests.
You can make posters. You canalso engage your protest to
explain your ideas and leteveryone know what they can do
to be a part of the solution.And so it's important to get
people's attention, but thenthinking about a strategy for

(06:31):
inviting people into problemsolving so that the solution is
sustained over time, requiresorganizing. Does that makes
sense. Hey,

Dr. Raquel Martin (06:41):
everyone, just a reminder that mind, your
mental is not just a podcast. Itis also a amazing community. If
I do say so myself, it'sphenomenal. I mean, you get more
access to me. What more couldyou want in this life? So if you
want to join the community, ifyou're not already on the
community, go to my socialmedia. My social media is the

(07:01):
same Raquel Martin, PhD, and DMme the word community, so you
can get details on joining thisamazing, flipping community. You
get more access to me. Y'alllike, I'm a delight. All right.
All right. Hope to see youthere. That makes perfect sense.
And I think when I think of thereport that you sent over the
ring the alarm, the the crisisof black youth suicide in

(07:22):
America, and the fact that somany people don't realize that
suicide is the second leadingcause of death for youth, ages
10 to 19, suicide. And it statedthat suicide rates among black
youth rise significantly. Rosesignificant from 2007 2017 I
remember reading a researchstudy from the CDC like two or
three years ago, and itmentioned that suicide rates had

(07:44):
decreased, yeah, for Americans.And I remember doing a post on
it, because I was just like, Oh,that's not possibly true. You
know, I'm still practicing Imight like, the suicide rates
haven't decreased. So then whenI read the report, when you look
at the data versus like,different races and ethnicity,
of course,

Unknown (08:01):
when you disaggregate the data, it was

Dr. Raquel Martin (08:07):
suicide rate for black youth was actually
steadily increasing, of course,and I used it as a teaching, a
teaching point for my students.Right about the fact that like
you can data is just data.That's why, when people are like
numbers, don't lie. They suredo. I don't know why people say
that. I always say data is datais just data. But if we if we

(08:27):
were zoomed out, we would havethought, oh, suicide rates for
Americans is decreased. So thatclearly means black Americans
too. And when we zoomed in, it'slike it's been steadily
increasing. I think it's soimportant because we're in the
social media age where peoplewill say, research, research,
research, and I'll be like,where's the citation? Because
there's no way for me to knowwhat you're saying is actually

(08:49):
what came out, right, right? Andit's so important specifically
with this report, in allreports, because, like, there's
still a myth that black peopledo not commit suicide. And not
only are they committingsuicide, the numbers have not
they haven't even stabilized.It's steadily increasing. So if
you have to think about this interms of the the realm of like

(09:09):
activism as well as likeorganizing, where do you think
we need to what are examples ofthings that say individuals who
are listening, that they can doon the activism side and on the
organizing side to help out withthis in particular,

Unknown (09:24):
this being the crisis, the mental health crisis facing
our community generally, andblack youth more specifically.
Yeah, I appreciate the question.So let me back up first and name
something I struggle with, whichis that a lot of the data that
we have access to was collectedbefore COVID, the most recent

(09:45):
pandemic sponsored by the novelCoronavirus. And I say that
because, as a sociologist, alsoas a researcher like you, I know
that life markers are important,and we in the United States
tell. Allow children to organizetheir lives around key moments,
including graduations andmilestone markers like that, or

(10:10):
prom, being able to go tocollege. And if you're
incredibly privileged, live oncampus in a community and for a
generation of children that wasripped from them, right? I still
talk to parents who havechildren who have had
developmental delays becausethey were denied opportunities
to be in community with otherchildren and practice the kinds

(10:33):
of skills that children aretypically able to learn in early
care and education settings thatthey were prohibited from
accessing because of not justthe novel Coronavirus, but the
decisions that elected andappointed leaders made. I'm
thinking explicitly about thefailures made by Donald John
Trump, who was occupying theOval Office at that point in

(10:56):
time. That's not the point. Thepoint is that we should assume
that any data around the ways inwhich children are ringing the
alarm, around the challengesthey face and the needs that
they have, including aroundmental health, are under
reported, one if only because ofthe ways in which data is

(11:17):
collected and the justifiablemistrust that most people, in
particular, black people, shouldcontinue to have. But two,
because we're also not takingadvantage of tools like
intersectionality to ask kidsmore thoughtful questions. I
after occupying the position ofbeing appointed by President

(11:39):
Barack Hussein Obama, hisfabulous wife, Bucha Levine
Robinson Obama, Sasha Malia,Grandma Robinson rested heaven
the dogs, Sonny and Beau to leadthe White House Initiative on
Educational access for AfricanAmericans. After that was no
longer an option. I went back toschool to earn a PhD, in part
because the largest data setsthat are used to inform and fund

(12:01):
public education throughout thiscountry, do not contemplate
children as whole beings whomight at some point not only
declare a sexual orientation,gender identity or expression
that may or may not fall underthe Liga big A tiga, LGBTQIA
plus umbrella, but more often,it's the case that while they're
developing, while they're theyare literally maturing in

(12:25):
schools that they're forced togo to by law, often by decisions
that their parents andlegislators make, like that
constrain the choices that theymay or may not have. It's often
children who are not performingexpectations of gender that are
marked and stigmatized, that aredoubly affected by stigma and

(12:48):
violence and discrimination, andoffered up to adults who the
data shows don't do a damn thingabout it. This is our reality, I
would offer an asterisk again,acknowledging that you and I are
having this conversation on theprecipice of one of the most

(13:09):
consequential elections in mylifetime. This is also
acknowledging that since DonaldJohn Trump proclaimed his
intentions to run for thepresidency coming down that gold
elevator, there have beenreports of students and
educators reporting increases inviolence and hostile climates

(13:33):
and the kind of kinds ofexperiences that Increase
suicidal ideation andcompletion, and I just posted a
video about data that wascollected to highlight the
correlation between the increasein legislation targeting trans
children. The last legislativecycle was one of the deadliest.

(13:57):
I'll come back to deadliest. Itwas one of the most dangerously
prolific with regard to antiLGBTQ legislation, at or near
600 depending on how you count,the vast majority of those bills
targeting students, transstudents, in particular. There's
now data that shows that thisincrease in legislative
targeting that anim that isanimated by folks like mark the

(14:20):
lieutenant governor of NorthCarolina, the black man who
stood in the pulpit of a blackchurch and called LGBTQ kids
filth, only later for us to findout that he is on Beyonce
internet, cheating on his wife,doing all kinds of things that
just the 69 god, look it up, ifyou don't know what I'm talking
about, but there's Now a datathat affirms the increase in

(14:41):
this legislative terrorism iscorrelated with an increase in
suicidality and completion,suicidal ideation and
completion. And no one should besurprised if you live in a in a
state like Florida or Texas orVirginia or you. Uh, insert your
state here where people arepassing laws that prohibit you

(15:04):
from accessing life saving andaffirming care, criminalize your
parents or educators who arecreating environments that are
safe and supportive for you tolearn and grow in. The results
of that is genocide, and theyknow it, and so I hope that is
an appropriate frame for all ofus to look through, no matter
how you enter this conversationor your relationship to

(15:27):
children, regardless of how theyidentified, or the systems that
they're forced to move through.And I hope it's helpful in
answering the question I heardat the beginning, which was
like, What can people do who areinterested in being activists?
The first is to educateyourself. There were a number of
song references that came tomind, but it's to increase your
competence. It is to to do whatI imagine those who are your

(15:50):
listeners and followers andpeople who support and engage
with your work are naturallyinclined to do, but it's to
become better educated so youunderstand what's happening. It
is to do the opposite of whatthe failed history teacher
turned governor of Florida,Ronald Deon DeSantis, wants us
all to do, and is to work wokeit is to celebrate the tradition
of black feminist and and alwaysunderstand how the matrix of

(16:13):
domination is at play, thesigns, systems and symbols that
allow white supremacy To beomnipresent yet hyper invisible,
knowing all of this is the firstfoundational step to doing
anything. And Dr Martin, here'swhy this is important. I very
much appreciate you. Posted avideo you and I exchanged
messages about this some timeago that named this. Was it?

(16:41):
Hypocrisy is not quite it'ssomeone that's coming to me in
this moment with the hypocrisyof like wanting, expecting,
needing, uh, black men to beemotive, to acknowledge that we
have emotions, and to name themand share them, but then calling
us sassy when we do soregardless of our sexual
orientation or genderexpression.

Dr. Raquel Martin (17:01):
Yeah, I told my students that. And I
actually, I recorded myselfdoing a lecture over it, because
these girl students in my class,it was, like in a black
experience. They was getting onthis dude, and they stay, like,
messing with him. So he poppedback. Good one too. Of course it
was. And they said, oh, oh, he'ssassy. I said, What? Right? I

(17:22):
said, Why is he sassy? I said,y'all been on him. Now, mind
you, this is towards end of thesemester. I'll never forget. I
was like, Y'all, we've beenhaving class for like 10 weeks,
man, like he really just be,yeah, and he's sassy. And I was
like, and I recorded it, I gottafind the lecture too. Because I
was like, you know, you'll sayyou want men to share stuff,
share emotions, but you really,what you really mean is tell me

(17:42):
how much you like me and be veryspecific about they like or tell
me your emotions. And then ifyou share, it's like, no, I
didn't mean that one. I'm in allthe pleasant ones, right? And
it's just this, you know, like,it's, I have two, two boys. And
it's funny because whenever Ipost something specifically
about black men, Dr Johns, Ialways get, like, a whole thing

(18:03):
about saying that, like, whatabout black women before? And
I'm just like,

Unknown (18:07):
I said, you don't live your life as a black woman, and
that your work is it rooted insupporting all black people,
regardless of how we identify,right? Exactly.

Dr. Raquel Martin (18:15):
And I always say that anytime you hear me
talk, I say he she day, what'sbest for black people? What's
the best for black women is bestfor the black women is best for
the black community. Black menbest for black community. Non
binary, black folk is best forblack community because it's
community. It's the both and butwhen people do that, and I'll
just be like, are you serious

Unknown (18:34):
that reacting slash, that tactic is one of the
easiest ways to do the master'swork. It is one of the ways to
be a tool of white supremacy.And I bring this up because
there's a video I'm going toshare with you today that
someone sent to me. I very muchappreciate the person who sent
it to me, and it's a brother whois similarly occupying this
position where he doesn't haveto be accountable for his

(18:55):
ignorance. And the nigga is loudand wrong and is essentially
saying, you know, black men getmurdered. We get lynched for the
way that we look, and gayniggas, don't it ain't never
been no gay man who and I'mlike, okay, so aside from the
fact that, like, there's anactual hate crime named after
James Byrd Jr, a black man whowas lynched because he is a

(19:17):
black man who was queer, it'spart of the fact that there's a
documentary about Ed Bucha,white man who terrorized and
murdered black queer sex workersin Los Angeles in the last five
years, like in spite of the factthat, like this is a historical
truth, you get to claimignorance in a way that allows

(19:40):
you to avoid having to do thework of freeing your mind and
engaging in white supremacyrehab, to appreciate that none
of us escapes the traumaassociated with whiteness, white
supremacy and the Coronavirusthat comes with all of them. And
so I'm spending a lot of. Timehere, because it is incredibly

(20:02):
important for all of us to dothe self work. A doctor mentor
mine, Doctor Yolanda Sid Ruizwould say the archeology of self
to be able to have a startingpoint to then do more. I said a
lot there, so maybe let me pauseand let that breathe.

Dr. Raquel Martin (20:19):
Yeah, because how you did say a lot, there's
when you mentioned the aspect ofnever having the data accurate
when it comes to suicidalbehaviors. I also, and working
in this realm as a psychologist,I always think that the data is
never going to be right. One,because of the mistrust aspect
of it. But two, I don't eventhink we identify the behaviors

(20:39):
Right. Like, if I have a patientand they're exhibiting like,
significantly risky behavior,but they're not saying they want
to die. They can't see a futurefor themselves, but they're not
saying they want to die. They'reusing substances every single
second of the day, but they'renot saying they want to die,
dealing with weapons everysingle second, but they're not
saying they want to die. Havenever even thought about
themselves at the age of 20, butthey're not saying they want to

(21:01):
die. We're talking about like,ideation. I always feel like,
you know the if we expand thelanguage to like, do they want
to live right? Like, engaging inthese behaviors where you can
see yourself in the future usingSubstance after like, all these
risky behaviors. And it's notthat they don't see it as like.
Not want to die. They see it aslike. I mean, what else do I

(21:22):
have but this? And I and I've,oh, I've always seen that as
like that, to me, that'sideation. Like, if you can't, if
you have that kind of vacantesteem, you can't see yourself
in the future to the point whereyou're taking risk after risk
after risk, and don't even thinktwice about it. I feel like the
data of suicidality is nevergoing to be accurate because
people don't even expand it tothat language, and that's more
qualitative data. Like, that'sgonna be like, You got to talk

(21:45):
to them. It's not a search. Youknow, I like focus groups and
interviews and honoring thenarratives of the people who
never got to talk in the firstplace. Like, I'm all for that.
But I, when I was talking aboutthat, I was telling my students
and tell people, like, the datais never going to be fully
accurate, but it's also like,you know someone who's like
that, you know somebody who'slike that, right?

Unknown (22:04):
Well, some of this is about the phrase you're using,
sitting with me. That is sittingwith me is the data is never
going to be accurate. There's apart of me, like, the visceral
thing that is is bubbling up forme is, like, what does that even
mean? Right? Like, to yourearlier intervention, data is
but a tool. Anybody who's takenstatistics knows that it is
about how you leverage tools tomanipulate information that you

(22:27):
have access to, whether that isusing numbers quantitatively or
using qualitative tools likefocus groups or narrative data
collection. That's one nextparagraph, I know, as you know,
that data is often used as atool to protect and further

(22:49):
enshrine white supremacy, whichis why they don't want us to
fucking understand how to usethe tool to dismantle the
master's house. And the dangerin the space that you and I
occupies, that our ability touse data can is often the thing
that then is weaponized againstus when engaged in conversation

(23:10):
with people who are committed toignorance in the purest form of
the of the term simply them notknowing that which they do not
know. Next paragraph, I think itis important for all black
people who love black people,people who care about,

(23:30):
appreciate want to continue toenjoy the privileges that are
afforded to most people in ourvery young and very fragile
democracy, to simply be moreaware of how whiteness as a
construct and tools of whitesupremacy, including language,

(23:54):
are used to divide and conquerus. Two quick examples, I when
teaching would often ask mystudents to to name all of the
ways in which you can refer to agrown boy. And they would spend
some time ruminating on it then,and most, most often, somebody
would yell out, or they wouldcome to mister as the the
construct, okay, run that for agrown girl. There are at least

(24:19):
three ways to do that. One miss,M, I, S, S, M, S, and then Mrs.
Mrs. Each of those terms aren'tsimply synonyms that don't have
a meaning. They each havediffering levels of privilege
and access, economically,socially, emotionally,

(24:40):
politically, financially, allbound up in a European
understanding of what it meansto not only be a girl who gets
to become a woman, but whatwoman means in relationship to a
cisgender heterosexual man in amarriage that is recognized by
the state. That's why peopleshould that's white supremacy at

(25:03):
work right before that, if wethink about some bufu solme who
reminds us in chapter 13 oftheir book, The spirit of
intimacy in my village in WestAfrica. The words lesbian and
gay did not exist, but the wordgatekeeper did, and gatekeepers
hold this space between thevillage and our ancestors, if we
were, if we engage in whitesupremacy rehab, and remember

(25:26):
that there are, there arecivilizations now where they
don't have gender pronouns,where this he, she, they all the
stuff that like radical rightwing politicians are using to
try and motivate voters in termsof scare tactics around trans
people, fear mongering, kind oftransphobia that that gets

(25:52):
Serena Williams, and I can'tthink of the boxers name of this
moment, but the boxer that hitthe white woman so hard she
called her a man, and like allall of these things are by
design. And if we engage inwhite supremacy rehab and
remember and reclaim ways ofbeing before white supremacy,
it's easier for us to engagewith each other without the

(26:12):
language getting in the way.Similarly, to go back to the
example that I offered up,which, which takes us back to
where we were in terms of thechallenges, and not just youth,
but black, LGBTQIA, plus youthfaces and people appreciate
that, like my africanness isqueer in America where whiteness

(26:33):
is centered as the thepejorative position of power,
Like us being black is queer,just as my sexual orientation,
being same gender, loving isqueer. Those things are queer.
We are queer. You as a woman isqueer. In a society that centers
men, it is the case that,because of how language works,

(26:57):
people use queerness, whichanalogically means that which is
not in a position of pejorativepower to refer to those of us
who are sexual minorities, butall of us are queer, all of us
are minoritized. And if we startfrom that premise, it's easier
to not only, I would argue, andmy research has shown, it's
easier to not only make sense ofshared oppression, but it's also

(27:20):
easier for us to understandorganizing opportunities to work
together to address the rootcauses of systemic and sustained
oppression, regardless of how itmanifests. What

Dr. Raquel Martin (27:34):
would you say are the the tools to start with,
to challenge that to combat thataspect of maybe in the language,
maybe in behaviors like how,what would you say was the first
place to start simply, when itcomes to combating this aspect
of supremacy that is embedded ineverything. And you can see it
coming out in language. You cansee it coming out of the way we

(27:55):
engage with each other, thedivisiveness and social media.
And it very much, is a tool,right? Like, if, if you ever
want to know you know whysomebody wants to silence or
divide you, you just have tothink about who benefits from
the lack of community withinthat group. Right? Like, who
benefits from that? What wouldyou say is a recommendation or
multiple where do you start?Because it's everywhere. It's

(28:18):
embedded, like you mentioned,the systemic. Where do you
start? If you can recognize it,say you can recognize it, but
you, you're like, I see this. Isee the fact that like, I
automatically default to this. Isee the fact that like, I'm
trying, I just don't know whereto start.

Unknown (28:33):
Yeah, three things. One, I hope everyone hears my
heart and everything I'marguing, which is to say I
appreciate you and recognize youwould support you wherever you
are, no matter how you enter thearena. By the arena. I'm
referencing Teddy Rooseveltspeech about those of us who
choose to do the work, whateverthat looks like for you. That's
one two is I want to remind andaffirm for everyone who's

(28:56):
interested in doing more workthat you should not do this
alone. This, again, is whyorganizing is relational. There
are organizations like in BJC,the organization I have the
pleasure of quarterbacking. Weare 21 year old civil rights
organization that is at theintersections of racial equity
and LGBTQIA plus equality, whichare often still siloed in spite

(29:19):
of increases in representationalleadership, and so I want people
to be aware of organizationsthat have always existed to help
us in this regard, whether theyshow up in the form of grios or
academics or educators, folkslike yourself, folks who write
books and who manage and runprograms to help us make these

(29:41):
critical connections, or theyshow up in the form of
organizations like nbjc, forexample, tools for activists
that have been helpful. So I'mstepping back from the specific
space we were just dwelling inaround white supremacy and how
it shows up in language and. Andcomplicates our ability to show

(30:01):
up for ourselves and others, tostep back and just talk about
tools generally. Let me know ifthat's not helpful, or where you
want me to go or grow. But toolsfor activist organizers include
developing clear visions andgoals, right? So starting with
like a self investigation ofwhat you are interested in doing

(30:23):
and desiring to know more is animportant and clear goal. Right?
It's the pray prayer, prayer forthe ancestors to make clear to
you all of that which you do notknow in a way in which you can
begin to digest and appreciateit and address it as so that's
one. The second is to buildrelationships. Again, organizing

(30:45):
as relational, being incommunity with people who are
who have different experiencesthat you do enables you to do
this work and challenge yourselfto grow beyond the limitations
of your own individualexperience and schooling and the
shaping that happensecologically based on how you

(31:09):
come into this world and who youcome into it. Through this is an
acknowledgement that my favoriteFirst Lady, Michelle Obama,
Robinson Obama, would often saythat in our country, it is still
the reality that you can predictthe child's life outcomes by and
large, based on code, geneticcode and ZIP Code tell me who a

(31:29):
child was born to,phenotypically, and a couple of
other demographic factors thatoften show up in what zip code
they were born into, and we canpredict most of their life
outcomes, or at least theirtrajectories, based on data,
right? And so being in communitywith folks who can help sharpen
and challenge and grow andsupport you and whatever your

(31:52):
goal is, is an important tool.Assessing what you This is to
supplement both of those things,assessing what you need, what
you have, and who can help youfill the gaps between the two of
those things so you can grow isincredibly important, right? A

(32:13):
needs assessment, regardless ofwhat your organizing goals are,
is foundationally important.Recruiting people to support you
in your campaign, regardless ofwhat your goal is, whether it is
to grow as an individual or toaddress a systemic problem
connected to white supremacy isanother important tool. White

(32:36):
supremacy has us lying toourselves, thinking that we can
be successful alone. That is alie from the pedo white
supremacy Hill. What mostAfrican folks know is that we
grow further, faster to whatgather. So recruiting people to
support you in this work isincredibly important. That's why

(32:58):
thinking about the experiencesof Descendants of Africa and the
work of Dr Joy DeGruy,acknowledging that we're not
post anything, let alone racialtrauma, it's important to not
only take things to the altarand have spiritual and ancestral
counsel, but to have a counselorlike you who certified and
trained and can provideresources and tools, And to have

(33:21):
a good group of friends who cancounsel you, whether it's
playing spades or engaging inmedicinal forms of of getting
through right of being able toexperience joy and dance and
move, for those of us who havethe ability to do so, like
recruiting folks to support usholistically is one of the ways
in which we not only do thiswork, but we remain well while

(33:45):
doing so. And then I think thelast one is to create structures
for action, right? So whether itis creating a group of folks
that you can engage inmeaningful and intimate
discussion with about thingsyou've learned, things that are
challenging you and growthareas, whether you call it an

(34:06):
accountability group, acounseling group or a group
chat, creating that space isimportant, identifying
benchmarks that enable you todemonstrate your growth, right?
So this is me needing to namethe goal should not be wanting

(34:27):
to become an ally of a communityyou might not be a part of. I'm
talking to my CIS, heterosexualsiblings, to be clear, I don't
want to make assumptions. If adoctor guessed at your birth,
gender at birth, that's whatgender assignment is. It's a
highly educated guess, if theyguessed and how you identify at

(34:49):
the point at which you are ableto declare an identity. If it's
consistent with that, guess yourcis gender. It is not a slur.
That's all it means. If youdon't and the doctor made a
different assignment. Climatethan what you identify with in
your body. You are trans. That'swhat those terms mean. So I'm
talking to my cis andheterosexual those of you who

(35:10):
engage in strictly heterosexualsex, I'm doing air quotes for
those who can't see whateverthat means. I'm talking to you
all in part because pop culturehas people thinking that they
can why? True? Pause, drag race,download a Todd call album and
quote some gay lingo, and nowthey're an ally, when the work
is really about becoming anactive accomplice, which

(35:31):
requires you leveraging yourprivilege having some skin in
the game and operating in waysthat make you uncomfortable to
create opportunities for others.And so the point I'm trying to
make is to create structures foraction that allow you to
demonstrate to yourself and toothers, to the extent that
that's helpful and notperformative, your growth. Did

(35:54):
that answer a question?

Dr. Raquel Martin (35:56):
Yeah, that answered my question. I think, I
mean, it would be anotherconversation. I think one of the
things that seems to beintimidating to a lot of people
is, like, the data aspect of it,right? Like how to get involved
and what it looks like. I findthat to be kind of the most fun
part of it, because I get toengage with people instead of,
like, being in my hovel lookingat my laptop and going over it.
But even when I talk to, like,colleagues and friends about it,

(36:19):
who are, like in training, justthat this is perception of just
saying the word data. It justfeels intimidating to some
people, so

Unknown (36:25):
don't say data. Then let's acknowledge that. Let's
This is a part of me that'slike, let's meet some people who
have good intentions where theyare, and acknowledge that, like,
words matter and to some extent,they're immutable. So let's not
call it data. Let's call itvalue, valuable experiences, or
like, you know, whatever it is,right, like we, those of us who

(36:46):
have the privilege of havingaccess to jargon and tools that
come with being a statisticianor having a PhD who's
demonstrated the ability to todesign and defend a research
study, can More frequently speakto people in language that they
understand. Again, Chris Emden,who talks a lot about hip hop as
a language that educators canand should use, is entering this

(37:09):
conversation with us, and so wecan hold more and let me know if
I can help you, friend, leader,do more to hold space for folks
who are understandablyintimidated because of the ways
in which white supremacy showsup in schools, to take out the
genius of it all until they canhold it for themselves.

Dr. Raquel Martin (37:27):
Yeah, I actually said that to my
patients, actually, when they'rein the moment where they're
like, they don't believe inthemselves, and they're having a
tough moment, and I said, Well,you know what? I'll hold that
for you. Like, you know what itcould be tough to always feel
like you have to challenge anddo the reframing. And it's like,
well, you you know exactly howyou feel. I got it for you so

(37:48):
you don't have to worry aboutyou if you don't feel the energy
to believe in yourself, Ibelieve in you like I got that
for you. It's one of the mostawesome aspects of me. I will
always say being a it's an honorlike to be able to be a trusted
space for people, because theycan, just as easily, especially
given the stuff that a lot ofpeople go through, just be like,
I, I have no interest intrusting another person in life,
and I will be like, you, right,you right, like, right and

(38:13):
right. That's valid. That's,that's valid to be like, I've
been done so many times. I dothink it shouldn't be, but it's,
it's novel to believe, right?Like, when I'm dealing with
people and they're like, Well,how do you just not so many
scenarios that are exhaustingand we're doing through the
election and stuff like that,and I'm like, I don't know the
future. I know it's kind of likewhat you said earlier, Dr Johns,
you said Kamala said that whenshe was in a interview with

(38:35):
Charlemagne. I'm sorry, yeah,I'm so sorry. Cut that out, my
editor. I'm so sorry. Why?

Unknown (38:47):
Where are we about to go? I'm like, Oh, you about to
get

Dr. Raquel Martin (38:50):
into it? No, it's just not just like, real
talk, though, always Yeah. I washaving a conversation with
somebody about Charlemagne theother day, and they were telling
me that I was being too tough onthis person. And here's my
thing, when they were comingfrom they had no idea that this

(39:11):
person had an entire MentalHealth Organization. Okay,
perfect. Yep, yeah. And I said,here's the thing, I think that
it's understandable, and it'salso natural for people to have

Unknown (39:24):
these had this organization for quite some
time, and they do things andmeaningful ways, world, mental
health, diet, Yep, exactly.

Dr. Raquel Martin (39:33):
And I think it's understandable that some
people evolve past maybe whatgot them to where they are.
Yeah, right. So the person whowas having a conversation with
me, and I'm like, yeah, no, I'mnot saying about who they are
as, like a shock jock. I'msaying who they are as the head
of a mental health organization,right? And they were like, Oh, I
didn't know they owned that.They had that. And I was like,

(39:54):
yeah, so what's your perceptionnow about the way that
narratives and conversation.Shins cause ripples within our
community, and I think that'swhat people don't get. I think
that's what people don't

Unknown (40:06):
want to because here's the thing, Google works like you
provided information that'sreadily accessible for anybody,
yeah, a computer in there ontheir person that they can
access. So some of this is alsoabout us naming when people are
willfully ignorant, especiallyabout things that they otherwise
can can have access to.

Dr. Raquel Martin (40:25):
Yeah, because I just, yeah, what was I saying?
Like, certain stuff, there arecertain things that I'm just
like, I mean, everything ismental health and everything is
well being. But, like, there'sso many times I'll see people in
this space and it's just like,yeah, I totally get mental

(40:47):
health and well being iseverything, and I want you to
get that I do this, yeah, yeah.Like, this is legit what I do.

Unknown (40:54):
So you do sacred work, and I'm thankful for it. So

Dr. Raquel Martin (40:58):
I just be like, you know, let's, let's,
let's be honest and be openabout the fact that we can
evolve past different things.The things that got us to a
certain stage may not be thethings that get us to the next
one

Unknown (41:10):
right name of the book. We

Dr. Raquel Martin (41:13):
evolve right? And some things are going to
have to be left behind. I amlike very much like an East
Coast Philly person. My attitudewas abhorrent coming up,

Unknown (41:23):
okay? Like, based on who's matrix, based on what and
who's matrix,

Dr. Raquel Martin (41:29):
the world ain't, no, ain't a word alive
that wouldn't say that. Iwasn't. Are you

Unknown (41:34):
sure? Are we sure about about this? Have we used

Dr. Raquel Martin (41:37):
to just be a butt for fun? Like, it used to
just be fun to me. Okay, that'swhy, when people be like, I
mean, you don't get it. I hadthis one student was just like,
you know, Dr Martin, you're booksmart, but I'm smart. And I'm
like,

Unknown (41:52):
yeah, oh, you beloved honey.

Dr. Raquel Martin (41:55):
I said, Yeah, because I was born a doctor, I'm
gonna let you have that. But,honey, no, like, that's why when
people like, Oh, it's so hardfor me not to, you know, pop off
me too. Rage is simmering prettyeasily. So like, if you get to
be mad, I get to be mad. My turnme next

Unknown (42:12):
experience, I appreciate your anger
transmitted. I don't have to doit. I just let it out. I just
pop off. It really,

Dr. Raquel Martin (42:21):
I guess it's right there. You think it, Oh,
you think it's fun to be anadult? Do you know the amazing
insults that are in my headdaily? But no, I have

Unknown (42:32):
to be an adult. People in particular, because I pop off
on adults. Mostly I have morepatience. Oh

Dr. Raquel Martin (42:36):
yeah, no, I patient children. I always say,
like, Y'all should be happy thatyou guys are. I see you guys as
kids, because adults don't getthe same grace. Grace, no kids,
you're a kid. Yeah. Okay, well,let me explain it to you again.
Let me provide you with theresource. Let me make this a
teacher moment, becauseeverything's a teacher moment. I
mean, that's why, that's whypeople don't really under that's
why I try to tell people, like,the aspect of adultification,

(42:58):
the reason why it's it'sviolence, right? Like the same
way you mentioned, people don'trealize that, like not teaching
our education or not doing thesethings, that's violence. If we
can, we can objectively statethat, telling teaching people
about them, their history,normalizing their experience,
making sure that their cultureis not the elective the core
curriculum. If we can say thatthat is something that builds

(43:20):
whole, functioning, healthy,happy, developmentally
appropriate, young children,then anything opposite than that
is violence, and it'sintentional. Yeah, it's
violence, right

Unknown (43:30):
by Ronald Dion DeSantis and the Republican Party and
Greg Abbott and yeah, uh huh,yeah, that's exactly right.
Let's name a thing, a thingbeloved, as IANA would say,
yeah,

Dr. Raquel Martin (43:41):
it's a violence. So that's why, when
I'm just like, you know, whenyou think of adultification, I
want you to think about the waywe treat children, and then
think about it opposite wise,right? Think think about it that
way, like, oh, I don't want tobe an adult. Why more
responsibility? People don'texplain stuff to me. I get
expected to do more. I expectedto know more. I get stuff
explain less. Okay? And nowthink about the fact that, when

(44:04):
does that start? As early asfive. I believe. How do you
think that contributes to thedevelopment of people and that?
And it goes back to when youmentioned the the aspect of
black men being emotive, right?People will be like, I get all
these conversations, how do wemake more black clinicians
available? I said, one, it'smoney. But two, I said, What if
I told you it's not? It's notsolely the aspect that we need

(44:24):
more black clinicians? What ifit's also the aspect that we
shouldn't expect only blackclinicians to be able to work
with black people? That part,

Unknown (44:31):
that part, what if we require the vast majority of non
black clinicians to be whatculturally competent? That part?
Because the math, by sheermathematical permutations.

Dr. Raquel Martin (44:43):
There's less of us, right? And people just go
straight to, well, let's do allthis. And I'm like, yeah, yeah,
yeah, right. But I see, I kindof feel like this is another way
you putting it on us, always,when it's not solely about black
clinicians, it's about why? Whyare black clinicians? Because.
Missions, will it where? What?What about the aspect of
everyone should be able topractice from an aspect of

(45:04):
cultural humility. Everybodyshould have work, books and
education. Yeah, that centerspeople that don't look like the
everyone should yeah and yeah.It just, I just always, I'm
always, just like a people. Ijust always be like, that's
just, you just put another thingon us. It's like imposter
syndrome. I meet many blackpeople that have imposter
syndrome. I met a lot of blackpeople who have a justified
reaction to an oppressiveenvironment, though, come

Unknown (45:26):
on framing, yep. Why

Dr. Raquel Martin (45:28):
would you feel like you belong when
they're making why would you notfeel like an imposter for the
place that they tells you thatthey reject you over

Unknown (45:35):
you to feel that very way? Yep. That's

Dr. Raquel Martin (45:38):
why I'm like imposter syndrome. Every single
time I say that, like, you know,I've never met a person, a black
person, who's had impostersyndrome. I've seen people who
have a justified reaction toenvironment that's making them
feel like they don't belong,yeah. Why would they feel like
they belong when you're sellingthem that they don't? I love
that. Yep. And it sounds crazy.They're like, What do you mean?

(45:59):
No. And plus, if you go back tothe research of what imposter
syndrome research was done basedoff of European American middle
to upper class women who werestruggling with grad school and
feeling and they were like, theyhad they were second guessing
themselves in grad school. And

Unknown (46:12):
I'm like, right, how about that? So

Dr. Raquel Martin (46:16):
I'm like, okay, and yeah, they may, they
may. But even that I'm like inthat environment, just like you
mentioned the queerness I lovethat they're queer in that
aspect of academia. That'sexactly right. So you think they
even think it's impostersyndrome. I'm like, or are you
having a justified reaction to ato a to misogynistic environment
that doesn't even want you to bethere?

Unknown (46:36):
That's right, not designed for you, not It's not
designed for you.

Dr. Raquel Martin (46:40):
So half the time I'm like, I can't stand
that term, like, because if yousay imposter syndrome, a lot of
times, people will go to, well,let's work on that within
yourself. But if you're saying ajustified reaction to an
oppressive environment shift,then the action is the
environment. And I always feellike, I'm like, I don't like
that word. I mean, like, I like,let's, let's focus on, why are

(47:01):
they feeling like an imposter?Oh, well, you know, we have
these policies that don't makethem feel welcome. So what do we
change? Do we change them or thepolicies? Do we ask them to
leave?

Unknown (47:10):
Yeah, it's a way to circumvent the accountability
around the structure, the rootcause. Again, a way to avoid
dealing with the roots. The rootcause. Yep,

Dr. Raquel Martin (47:20):
you got a house phone?

Unknown (47:21):
I do an office phone. Talk about adultification, a

Dr. Raquel Martin (47:25):
real one. Nah, nah. Let me see it. Shut
up. No, don't. Oh, is that aLogitech? No, you don't.

Unknown (47:39):
I got a cordless that. I got one with a cord too.

Dr. Raquel Martin (47:42):
Oh my god, you're such an adult. Oh my
gosh,

Unknown (47:47):
again, the consequences of what the pandemic. Shut

Dr. Raquel Martin (47:54):
up a cordless phone and a corded one. I feel
like such a little kid. Now,

Unknown (48:02):
are you a grown girl? You're responsible for living,
breathing humans. You aredefinitely an adult.

Dr. Raquel Martin (48:07):
Listen, but still, every time I see these
posts that they'd be like, Ican't believe we the real
adults. I feel it because Ican't believe I'm the adult in
the room.

Unknown (48:17):
Listen, we my, my two of my dear friends, Brittany and
Reggie, celebrated their fifthyear wedding anniversary
recently, and afterwards, thegodparents got together just to
continue, you know, the afterparty. And another godparent
said to his brilliant,beautiful, her name is Georgie.
She has a podcast, uh, thateverybody should download. I
think it's quiet time withGeorgie. J, O, R, G, I, E, she's

(48:39):
only Georgie out there, butGeorgie. He was like, you know,
Georgie, do that thing. And wewere like, did you become the
uncle? Right? He was like, Idid. And did so

Dr. Raquel Martin (48:52):
because it is cute, because, well, first of
all, once again, I must tell mystory, then we'll wrap up. But
Russell wants to be my oldest.Wants to be a firefighter for
Halloween or whatever. And hehad already told me he wanted to
be a firefighter, but I as soonas he told me that, I was like,
oh, no, we got to get rid ofthis, because he already has a
firefighter costume in thehouse, because we do imaginative

(49:13):
play. So if he is a firefighter,he we don't get to get a new
costume. And by we, I mean me,like,

Unknown (49:20):
why are you not centering Russell's desire to be
a firefighter?

Dr. Raquel Martin (49:25):
So as soon as, as soon as he said that, I
was like, oh my god, let's justmake sure you don't tell your
dad, because as soon as he tellsmy husband, because so so they
have they

Unknown (49:33):
done that is going to be logical or rational, and very
logical, very rational, verydebut, very, oh

Dr. Raquel Martin (49:41):
my gosh, they have, they little talks every
night. And when he camedownstairs for this talk,

Unknown (49:47):
okay,

Dr. Raquel Martin (49:48):
he said, Oh, well, Russell. Russell said he
wanted to be a firefighter. AndI was like, Yeah, but he said,
and that means he's gonna begonna get a new costume. And I'm
like. Like, Oh my gosh. Ideserve to see him and cute
stuff, a new outfit. Every yearI see him in a firefighter

(50:09):
costume.

Unknown (50:09):
Why does that have to be for Halloween? Firefighter?

Dr. Raquel Martin (50:13):
I don't know. I see him in that costume,
Friday, Saturday, Sunday,Monday, too. It's the 31st I
want something different.

Unknown (50:20):
That's not what he wants, and I deserve to get a
costume for you. You if youadmire a costume that you get
what you can even do a Beyonceand have costume changes, if
that makes your heart flutter.You alive. You are. Let Russell
be. Let Russell be thefirefighter he want to be. Oh, I

(50:44):
was. I was just like, we are, weare, we are. I appreciate this
conversation because this is athrough line between this quote
that we have been quiltingtogether and it's and I
appreciate that we can have iton this level because of the
levity. But think about howoften this dynamic shows up in
the experiences of children,right? Dr Johns,

Dr. Raquel Martin (51:07):
I don't want it to be real. I just want to
see him in something cute, and Ideserve it. Let me tell you
something. Let me tell yousomething about Russell. Let me
tell you something aboutRussell, that little boy has had
me fighting for my life thesepast couple of months. Okay, so
you know what all I want is tosee you dressed up as something
cute. That'll just remind me

Unknown (51:25):
again I receive everything you said, Dr Martin,
with this is my right as a mom,you have said that you have been
doing the work of being a parentto a child who did not ask to be
born, and in exchange for doingsaid labor, you want to dress
him up like he is a doll, a cutedoll, not a actual person. I

(51:51):
hear you.

Dr. Raquel Martin (51:52):
I really want. I was really hoping, yeah,
oh, I'm aware of that. I washoping he wanted to be like
something in a suit, you know,like I really was hoping.

Unknown (52:07):
I am a grown adult. I pay lots of bills that I don't
want to pay, in residences thatI don't occupy or otherwise
dwell I don't wear a suit. Theday that I realized that the
President that I worked for,Barack Hussein, Obama, didn't
wear a suit to tie. You'd befine find a picture of me in a

(52:28):
suit and tie. You

Dr. Raquel Martin (52:29):
wouldn't say that if you saw our holiday
photos. He's just so cute. It'sbasically been 10 months since
I've seen his little, cute facein a suit. Oh my gosh. And it
was a it was like a velvet blue

Unknown (52:42):
group chat, because I pray for little Russell's
freedom.

Dr. Raquel Martin (52:46):
I just love seeing his little Oh my
goodness. He was like, he gotthis, he got, like, this Nike
outfit. My mom got it for himand for my youngest, the two
year old. And I've been lookingfor weeks to find so we can
match.

Unknown (53:00):
That's what this is about. Uh huh. Uh huh. Is

Dr. Raquel Martin (53:04):
there just, oh my goodness,

Unknown (53:06):
I'm gonna let you live for a little bit. Oh

Dr. Raquel Martin (53:08):
my goodness. And, like, just so cute, just so
we all just be in our littlegreen Nike sweat suits. All of
y'all can now

Unknown (53:17):
be in your fire department, or you can expand it
be emergency service providersin different iterations.
Somebody can be EMS. I mean,there are lots of options. I'm
here for Russell's imagination.

Dr. Raquel Martin (53:33):
Is it imagine? Is it imagination? If
you're wearing the same outfitthat you wear on a random
Wednesday, here's what I

Unknown (53:38):
think about. And one of these things I miss is there.
Where's the picture? I taughtkindergarten and New York City
on 100 and 10th Street andBroadway, and my babies were
forced to play in a in an areathat is no bigger than the
office I'm standing in now, andone of the most expensive
districts in the country. Andone of the things that I miss

(54:00):
most is the in spite of the factthat my babies had the same
physical confinement, the sametools, blocks, toys, every day,
they found some new world todream of and envelop and enroll
everybody else In that one day,the same block could be a car

(54:23):
that could be a rocket ship,that could be a computer, and
that that space could transformto meet whatever they felt in
that moment, that kind ofmagical ability to create worlds
as something that gets beatenout of us So absolutely, yes,

(54:46):
his ability to and desire todwell and dream and whatever
world being a firefighter isconnected to, I'm sure, exist in
vivid Tech. Color, and my prayerfor you sister is to be a dumber
printed I

Dr. Raquel Martin (55:07):
don't want, I don't want no teaching moment.
All I wanted to do is possiblysee my son as a pumpkin, okay,
because they're cute.

Unknown (55:16):
So you find another one costume outside of Holloway,
because he's already made adecision,

Dr. Raquel Martin (55:22):
yeah, I'm gonna have to find a way to
sneak it in somewhere, becauseas soon as I do, that, brand is
gonna be like so we just buycostumes for Tuesdays now, yeah?
I mean, honestly, that's why hehas the firefighter costume

Unknown (55:36):
every day, every day, we perform drag, whether it is
the drag of being a student, thedrag of being a professional,
the drag of being honey, we allperform just what drag you gonna
do on today? So if you want tobuy, listen, Barb, whatever.
That's

Dr. Raquel Martin (55:53):
why we got the firefighter costume in the
first place, because I'm like,we need some imaginative play.
What are we going to be today? Ijust ran a look at it. I was
like, This is so cute. It wasn't

Unknown (56:02):
random. Look at the ancestors conspiring for his
success.

Dr. Raquel Martin (56:06):
You know what? Dr Johns, this may have to
be your last time here. That'sall

Unknown (56:10):
right, as long as my brother gets the support, or my
sibling gets the support thatthey need.

Dr. Raquel Martin (56:17):
I mean, honestly, as soon as soon as it
was something that didn'trequire a purchase his he was
gonna have his dad's 100%support as soon as he came
downstairs. I was like, Man, whyyou tell him that? Man, you
already I thought we still hadtime. Already knew what was
gonna happen, yeah, as soon asthey be having a little
conversation

Unknown (56:35):
again. And here's what's what is not lost on me.
I'm just gonna name it and plantthat seed with water. Later is
that this is we could trace thisconversation and layer on top of
it a transparency for howsimilar it is to parents who
struggle with I'm not sayingyou're their friend. I'm just
saying this is what is not loston me struggle with their
children's pronouns or genderexpression or identity in so

(57:00):
many forms?

Dr. Raquel Martin (57:02):
Yeah, I think so. Because I when I when I've
had to work with parents on thatthe biggest thing that we had to
divorce them from is thisperception of like and
everyone's not like this likeeveryone has their reasoning
behind in their minds, why theycan't, why they did. They have
this stronghold on them, whytheir children don't belong to
you, why they

Unknown (57:23):
refuse to let the dreams that they have dreamt for
themselves through theirchildren die,

Dr. Raquel Martin (57:29):
yeah, because that's the thing, and it's like
your children don't belong toyou. I also feel like people
really confuse legacy withlineage, and like your legacy is
what you contribute to thisworld, but not as a person,
right? Like my legacy is goingto be, hopefully, the way I
leave critical thinking skillsin my students. My legacy is
going to be, if I one day writea book, my lineage is my

(57:49):
children. That's just genetics,right? But, but they're not my
legacy. My legacy is my body ofwork. And I think a lot of
times, people will confuselegacy with lineage and just be
like, well, they're my legacy.That's, that's not true. Like
you're, yeah, I totally get youhave all of these, these visions
and thoughts and all of thatwhen they're when they're in

(58:09):
your womb. But is it not justmagical that they can come out
and, like, crash every singleone of those, and then you get a
whole new person who get, youknow, like, it's an honor to see
them from the beginning,watching my child learn.
Literally had to learn how to dothe peace sign, and the fact
that, like, it's a new thing forhim, and he puts it up in every

(58:30):
single picture. And I got towatch him learn and do too, and
he puts it in every picture. Andit's so cute, because I'll be
like, picture, he'd be like,yep. But like, people will see
it as like, oh, you know, it'smy vision. I see it as like,
isn't it magical that, like, theeven the dreams that you have
for that person, you could, youcould never you. It was like,

(58:52):
that was like, the baseline,they're coming out and they're
like, shattering this. Butpeople don't see it that way.
Like, yeah, I totally get it.I'm a parent. I have perceptions
of what parents it was going tobe like, and then, you know
what? Let's dance in theconfetti of them crashing and
burning that and being like, no,what if I told you it's 10 times
better than that, Mom, you're,you're, you couldn't even dream
of how flipping amazing I am,you know, like, I just see it's

(59:14):
more like, I get it when I'mworking with parents and, you
know, I'm like, I get it. Butlike, what if I told you? Like,
that's like, some people say,like, my my pre game is your
workout. What if I told you,like, the way your perception of
what you thought your child wasgonna be, that's like, the
baseline, like, that's like, thethat's like, a warm up. You

(59:35):
couldn't even you, there's noway you could possibly dream how
amazing they are, because thelimit doesn't exist. You don't
even, you can't dream that way.You only have to see it so I get
it. But like, you know, yes, Ijust wanted to talk about, don't
you talk if you say anything, ifyou say anything,

Unknown (59:51):
no, I'm just gonna find that. Jeff Johnson said this
some time ago in a verydifferent context. But like,
this should be the dream of allparents. Which is that your
child's desires are beyond yourwildest comprehension. Rather,
how boring is it for ourchildren to want to do and be

(01:00:12):
the things that make sense tous? Our children challenging
convention should excite us. Ata minimum, it should compel us
to interrogate the visceralresponse we often have, which is
to squelch, quiet down ordissuade children, in

(01:00:33):
particular, from things thatdon't make sense to us. I think

Dr. Raquel Martin (01:00:38):
interrogate is the perfect word, and I'm
gonna say this, and I will letyou go after you go after you
tell everybody where to findyou. I was talking to my husband
the other day, and I was like,you know, I think that when you
get to a space where peopledon't read right, and especially
read our history, I think it'svery easy for people to forget
how far we've technically come,yeah, like, I really, really do.

(01:01:01):
Like, I think one of thereasons, like, the why people
won't interrogate or why people,like, make an assumption in this
aspect of someone belonging toyou. I mean, I know it sounds
very basic, but I just thinkpeople do not realize how far
we've come. Like, I think thereit's it's lost on you. Like,
people who don't want to vote,and I'm just like, especially,

(01:01:25):
you know, black people. Have youread megar and Merley people who
it just in like, who are talkingabout, like, mental health and
don't understand the connectionbetween incarceration and mental
health? Have you read AntoniaHilton's book, people who don't
understand why the schoolsystem. But often the answer is
no, right? The often the answeris no. And I think, I mean,

(01:01:48):
like, I know I'm a huge

Unknown (01:01:49):
nerd, but even if they had so what Right? Like, the way
that, the way the whitesupremacy is set up, don't
nobody, most people don't havethe luxury of one reading or
accessing those books. Thinkabout that. Literacy rates that
lead to a lot of the mentalhealth outcomes that we've been
talking about, regardless ofidentification or orientation.

(01:02:12):
But even if people did the waythat like trauma and prolonged
trauma and poverty and inheritedtrauma, the way that all of that
is set up, people don't oftenhave the luxury of making
rational, otherwise rational andinformed choices that enable

(01:02:33):
them to account for theinformation they might have
encountered at some point. Soeven when we assume people have
read those books that that theyhave the ability to remember and
then apply the knowledge in realtime, given all that we are
faced with on any given day, letalone in this moment, in our

(01:02:54):
very young, very fragilegeopolitical environment or
history, is by design.

Dr. Raquel Martin (01:03:02):
Oh yeah, it's by design. I was on live today,
and somebody said, can you speakto black people, not supporting
Black people? And I said, Ithink that's a very big
generalization. But I also thinkit's important to realize that
like as someone who sees it frommyself as a person, as well as
working with people from so manydifferent walks of life, and
having that able to do that,people are really just trying to
survive. Like, you're you'remaking an assumption that, like,

(01:03:23):
Oh, they're being malicious, butlike, people are really just
trying to get through the day.And I think by leading with this
whole car thought process of notthinking it's malicious, like,
oh, they didn't support you.You, I do. Do you think that
that was their intent, or do youthink they're just trying to
survive. Do you think that they,they, they, I just, I just don't

(01:03:45):
think people really realizethat, like, you know, like,
it's, yeah, people arestruggling so much malicious
intent is not, at least from us.I don't see it like that as
often I see it as like, Oh, I'mso sorry. I didn't mean to step
on your foot. I didn't even seeyou there. I'm in a daze because
I'm just trying to make it to5pm

Unknown (01:04:05):
right? And and I often land in this space, probably see
all of the above, which is oftenthere's a distinction without a
difference, when people areprocessing in a real time. I
don't give a about what youintended. What I know in this
moment is that you stepped on mytoe and now my foot hurts right

(01:04:25):
like I don't care about theintention. What I know is that
the outcome of this policy meansthat my trans child and I cannot
leave our home because you nothave incentivized our neighbors
reporting on us in ways that Imight be put in a prison,

Dr. Raquel Martin (01:04:41):
yeah, intent at impact are in no way the
same, no. And I see a lot ofpeople get away with certain
things, with saying that that'snot their intent. And I was
like, well, intent is a youthing, right? Because you have
to, you have to take the time tofigure out what's what, what,
why you're you know you, yourperception is like, say you
stepped on my foot, right? I.Like, you have to worry what

(01:05:01):
think about like, why are youwalking around with your hands
over your eyes? The intent is athing. You got to process
yourself, but we got to dealwith the impact of this, right?
Your intent is an internalprocess. And if you have someone
who wants to call you in andtake all that fine, that doesn't
mean you can't do it, but wehave to deal with the harm. We
have to deal with the impact.You know, like you. We now we

(01:05:22):
both in it, but that intentthing that's something you gotta
figure out for yourself, buddy.You gotta take the time to think
about why you walking down themiddle of the street with your
eyes closed. You gotta, yougotta, you gotta talk to your
God about why you think that'sappropriate behavior. But when
you you gonna talk to me aboutthe fact that I just got some
new j's and you stepped on youSean, like, we won't, like, you
know, like, like But DoctorDavid Johns, who sat here and

(01:05:45):
turned my selfish moment into ateachable one, which nobody
wants that. Okay? Nobody, nobodywants that. No one wants to
learn all

Unknown (01:05:54):
the community to get us what we know, what we want. But
My people will be I

Dr. Raquel Martin (01:05:58):
didn't, not another one. Don't listen. I've
met my limit.

Unknown (01:06:02):
Can we? We'll see I've written that learning

Dr. Raquel Martin (01:06:06):
all day. Tell everybody where they can find
you, as well as the amazingorganization that you are doing
all these amazing things withand for and through and all
that. Yeah,

Unknown (01:06:17):
I appreciate everyone for the gift of their time and
attention. We can continue thisat MySpace. I look forward to us
doing this on the teach thebabies podcast with me. Dr David
Johns, I'm at Dr David Johnsacross most platforms and nbjc
organization, I'm honored toquarterback as a chief
rustinette by Rustin, to be moreprecise, can be [e-mail]

(01:06:41):
across platforms, at nbjc on themove, and my hope is that we can
be a resource to you. And ifthere's something you need but
don't see that, you will let meknow, so we can fill that gap
and support you in your advocacyorganizing growth.

Dr. Raquel Martin (01:06:58):
Well, y'all heard it here first. Thank you
so much. What days do you dropnew episodes?

Unknown (01:07:02):
So classes in session every Tuesday. That's where we
drop the episodes. And because Ineeded a container for some of
this election conversation, wehave office hours which launch
on Thursday, so you can Okay.Bonus, right? That's twice a
week for a couple of weeks, atleast through the upcoming
presidential election.

Dr. Raquel Martin (01:07:22):
All right, so you get double that's what's up.
So y'all can catch up on allthese, these back episodes, and
then you can be ready forThursday episodes too. That's
what's up. How you find thetime? I have no idea, but Okay,
okay, the construct I try is aconstruct. Time is a construct.
Tools I talked

Unknown (01:07:39):
about as an advocate and organizer to get it all done
like Beyonce.

Dr. Raquel Martin (01:07:44):
Like Beyonce. Oh, I love her. But okay, okay,
everybody, have a fantastic restof your week.