October 1, 2024 • 43 mins
Summary
The conversation explores the concept of black identity and the limitations of existing frameworks. It delves into the idea of blackness as a performance and the different responses to racism within the black community. The discussion also touches on the role of agency in black identity development and the complexities of defining blackness. The conversation highlights the importance of inclusivity and the recognition that blackness can manifest in various ways. It concludes with a conversation about code-switching and masking as survival strategies in different contexts. In this conversation, Touré discusses the importance of advocating for oneself in professional settings and the strategies to navigate power dynamics. He emphasizes the need to marshal allies and speak to decision-makers in a way that allows them to change their minds without feeling attacked. Touré also reflects on his experience of being rooted in but not restricted by race and the confidence it has given him in predominantly white spaces. The conversation concludes with a discussion on the impact of private school education and the importance of self-esteem in navigating different environments.
Takeaways
- Black identity is complex and cannot be limited to a single definition or framework.
- Blackness can be performed in different ways and responses to racism vary within the black community.
- Agency plays a crucial role in black identity development.
- Inclusivity is important in recognizing and embracing the diversity of black experiences.
Bio
Touré is a renowned writer, music journalist, cultural critic, and podcaster, known for his deep insights into music, race, and culture. He gained prominence as a co-host on MSNBC's The Cycle and has contributed to The Dylan Ratigan Show. Touré also hosted Hiphop Shop and On the Record on Fuse, and serves on the prestigious Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Nominating Committee.
A respected voice in the world of hip-hop, he has taught courses on the genre’s history at NYU’s Clive Davis Institute of Recorded Music. Touré is the author of several acclaimed books, including Who's Afraid of Post-Blackness? and I Would Die 4 U: Why Prince Became an Icon. He regularly contributes to The Daily Beast and The Grio.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
Steve, Hello everyone, and welcome to Mind your mental
just a reminder that thispodcast is not meant to be a
substitute for a relationshipwith a licensed mental health
professional. I know they arehard to find, and I get that I
have a bunch of resources on mywebsite if you need them, but I
am not your clinician. I am apsychologist, but I am not your
(00:21):
psychologist. So if you need anyspecific help, please look for
the help of a licensed mentalhealth professional. Learn all
you can learn from the podcast.Enjoy the episode, but thank you
so much for coming on the show.One of the reasons why I wanted
to talk to you today was I sawyour post about what led to you
writing your first book, who'safraid of post blackness, what
it means to be black now, and itinstantly made me think of the
(00:44):
conceptual framework I've beentrying to come up with for black
identity development. I'vealways felt that the other ones
are kind of limiting, becausenot limiting, okay, I don't want
to say limiting. As a scientist,I've always felt as though, when
I've read them, that we weremissing a certain aspect of it.
And I don't know if you're awareof me, but I'm a professor at
Tsu. I'm also a psychologist,but I also publish tsu,
(01:06):
Tennessee State University.Yeah, great, cool.
And one of the things inteaching is that I've noticed
that I feel like there aredifferent things that are being
missed from the frameworks thatare out there and engaging with
the students and things of thatnature. One of the I am an
intellectual, not an academic,not an academician, right? And I
understand the difference,right? And one of the things I
(01:27):
noticed in the book, becausethere's folks from the Academy,
and then there's smart, regularfolks in the book, and the
notion of the performance of theblackness as a performance. To
all the academicians, were like,yes, of course, and to almost
all civilians, was offensive andtriggering. And like, What are
(01:49):
you talking about? It's not aperformance. It's just who I am.
And just explaining to them thenotion of, well, personality is
a performance. And it was like,this was like, just even the
idea that personality was aperformance was revolutionary to
them. There's a space just, it'sjust kind of an awareness of
what we're talking about, as faras fluidity. But yes, I don't
(02:11):
feel comfortable with anydefinition of blackness that
excludes any black person,right? And including traitorous
choices with it, right? LikeCandace Owens is a traitor to
blackness, right? Where onemight, you know, I can name any
(02:32):
number of people who we mightagree, like that person's an
Oreo, right? Like in thetraditional vision of what that
means, right? But even thosechoices are African American
choices to the situation thatwe're in, right? So it couldn't
just be, you know, one of the,one of the things that we talk
about, the notion of a sense ofan essentialist vision of what
(02:54):
blackness means really redoundsto it's really about being from
the hood, as if blackness, as ifthe hood is the refrigerator and
blackness is the milk, and thelonger it goes outside of the
fridge, it spoils, right? And Iwas like, like, you could be
black in Beverly Hills and PGCounty and, like, with money.
And like, you know, it doesn'thave to be hood. It doesn't have
(03:16):
to be, you know, rooted in JamesBrown. It could be many
different things. Yeah, becauseeven with your mention of like
the individuals who arecatastrophic to the black
experience, like to quote yourbook, you specifically
mentioned, I think what ClarenceThomas has done on the Supreme
Court is wholly destructive toblack folk, and I'm willing to
root my arguments about hiscatastrophic performance in
(03:38):
Reason claims about politics andrace, but he isn't any less
black than I am. He's got adifferent take on blackness and
race than I do
mean we are all responding toracism in one way or another.
Yeah, many of us choose torespond to racism by building
community, right? And I feelsafe because I see a person like
(04:02):
you, and I can talk to you andbond with you, and I feel like,
well, she's a sister, so Ishould be able to feel close to
her. And he's responding toracism also, he's just choosing
a different response andthinking that you know being
aligning with them will keep himsafe. Hey, everyone, just a
(04:23):
reminder that mind, your mentalis not just a podcast. It is
also a amazing community. If Ido say so myself, it's
phenomenal. I mean, you get moreaccess to me. What more could
you want in this life? So if youwant to join the community, if
you're not already on thecommunity, go to my social
media. My social media is thesame Raquel Martin, PhD and DM
(04:45):
me the word community so you canget details on joining this
amazing, flipping community. Youget more access to me. Y'all
like,
I'm a delight. All right. Allright. Hope to see you there. I
wholeheartedly try to and.
Body and work in the aspect oflike, I'm not only pro blackness
that mirrors my own, and then Ialso instantly get pissed when I
(05:07):
hear people's names in thatrealm that I think have also
been kind of shocked to theblack experience. And then
there's always this conflictwith that whole aspect of like,
all right now, well, you can'tsay I'm only pro blackness, that
I'm only I can't say I'm onlypro blackness when it doesn't,
you know, I'm not only pro blackwhen it means my own and then
still get mad and just be like,because I've never stated the
(05:27):
aspect of like people aren'tblack enough as someone who's
had the, you know, penultimateinsult of being, like, talking
white. But it's, I feel likeit's also tough. It's also like,
really tough to be like, Allright, I'll be real, though.
That man pisses me off. I mean,it kind of becomes a little
semantic, almost, because I'mjust saying these are all
(05:49):
responses to being black inAmerica, yeah. Now, now that is
a problematic and troublingresponse. Condoleezza Rice,
Candace Owens, Jason Whitlock,like that's a horrible response,
right? That is anti thecommunity as opposed but I'm not
saying those are not they are inmany ways, anti black, but they
(06:10):
are not black, right? Like,we're missing it if we think
you're not black. Now, if youcategorize it as they are anti
black, absolutely. And I pushback against the notion that
black people can't be racist bysaying, Well, you know, Candace
Owens is one obvious example. Isworking in service of white
supremacy. She doesn't have thepower, right? That argument's
(06:31):
always like, well, alwayscertain people have power. She
has power in her world to makeus look bad and give comfort and
space and power to racistpeople. So she's working in
service of white supremacy. Sothat is racism, that is active
racism. You know, the other partof the notion still stands. But
(06:54):
I'm like, of course we could beracist, right there. Yeah, I get
pushback on that all the time,and I think it's I'm sorry. One
thing you'll see, I'm sorry whatI do, just remind I haven't
thought about this book a longtime. One thing that I see, I
think that we put that I foundthat comes in about the middle
of the book, a psychologicalstudy, I found that, like, even
(07:15):
black people who are not, Idon't know how to frame this
like
who are not I'm gonnacolloquially, I'm not all there
very few black people wish to bewhite, right? That's very rare,
right? So it's not that we wantto escape blackness and become
(07:37):
white, but I think some of us dosee
a value and a power insurrounding yourself with them
and not threatening them. That'sthe thing, right? That if you
are non, if you are too nonthreatening to white people,
then we get upset, right? Likewe like to see us like you're
(07:57):
willing to tell them off, right?You're willing to scratch them
right, as opposed to, like, youknow, I've seen a lot of right,
righteous attack on Emmanuelacho recently, who did this
horrible white centric show,right? Did you ever see it?
Because, yeah, I did a responseto just his statement to Angel
Reese. Because it really bad,for sure. Yeah, but he did this
(08:21):
whole white centric show wherehe would talk to white people
about racism, and it's very muchlike, let's sit and make you
comfortable to have aconversation with a black man. I
think it was uncomfortableconversations and but it was
this group of white people werelike, Let's make it easy for you
to have this conversation andsay that you feel bad about like
you're just helping the whites,but you're completely non
(08:43):
threatening. And that bothersus, right? When we're like,
you're completely nonthreatening to the whites, like,
I even think that aspect of whenyou mentioned the you know, the
proximity, it's out of fear,right? Because it's just like
you understand that closeness.If you're trying to get closer
to whiteness, it's because youknow that if you're seen as
safe, maybe you won't be as lessdangerous, maybe you'll have
(09:04):
some aspect of freedom and andit, I mean, like in your book,
you particularly mentioned, whenyou did the show, I'll try
anything once, right? And youwere talking in the book about,
like, and also, I know youhaven't thought about the book
in a while, but, like, I kind ofthink you should redo with the
same questions, with new people.Just going to throw that out
there, but because the questionsyou have in the beginning are
(09:25):
really good questions. So I knowyou haven't thought about it in
a while,
but I think it's worth it to dothe entire, you know, do like it
and do it with new people,because the questions are really
good. Thank you. And I would,you know, anyway, but when you
mentioned that aspect of the itwas the story about jumping out
of the jumping out of planeskydiving, and you mentioned you
(09:45):
were sitting at the table beforeyou went skydiving, and there
were three black gentlemen whorecognized you, and you told
them what you were doing, andthey were like, Oh, we don't
black people. Don't do that. Andlike, it seemed like, from what
I read, it was like whisperingin a tone because you were
sitting with non black people.And they were just like.
Like, Oh, I just want to wakeyou up. Like, I just want to,
you know, what is it? Hit thetea, hit the spoon on the
teacup, because you must be outof it. We don't do that, right?
(10:08):
And I instantly knew what youwere talking about, because the
Whisper is just like, it's theWhisper. And one of the things
you mentioned is how you knowit's limiting to be in that
realm, right? Like, a lot of thethings that you mentioned in the
book are how these thoughtprocesses are limiting. I forget
who you were interviewingparticularly, but they mentioned
they hated the concept of beingreal, because that just made it
(10:28):
limiting. Even in this example,you just gave about, like,
blackness being in the fridge,and the longer the fridge being
the hood, the longer in thehood, the more salient it is.
You could come out with that.And I've always felt as though,
and it is very much true, thatlike that is kind of what like
chokes us in terms of gettingout there and knowing more about
ourselves and as a result,contributing to the community
(10:49):
and the way it deserves. Becausethe same way you mentioned that,
like European American childrenhave been doing people have been
doing this their whole life,that freedom, that whole
stereotypical aspect of it, thatwhole, there's only one right
way to be black, that whole,like adultification,
dehumanization, all it does iscontributes to white supremacy,
but that robs our freedoms, andin doing so, we're honestly, in
my opinion, contributing to thesublimation of the black
(11:12):
experience and what we canbecome under the guise of being
black enough, if that makessense, like it's because it's
just limiting, Right? Like, thewhole reason why I think it's
infuriating, because it's justlike, you know, and in stating
that there's one right way to beblack, you're trying to
basically, like, hone in on theblack experience and save our
culture. But in doing that,you're actually robbing us of
(11:34):
the possibility of our cultureto grow. And I don't think many
people see it that way, whichcan be difficult, definitely
seen over my years, especiallylike 70s and 80s, there'll be
these little clubs, uh, blackskiers, black scuba divers, who
were doing things that blackpeople don't do, right? And they
(11:56):
were like, We're doing them. Andthere was this air of like we
need to show others like, thisis cool. It's cool to ski, it's
cool to skydive, it's cool toscuba dive, whatever it may be.
And like they they did it out oflove, but also a sense of like,
(12:19):
you know, we're we can take ourblackness is portable, like we
could take it with us to scubadiving, to skiing, whatever. And
like, you know, these places mayor may not want us, but we're
going anyway, but also makingsure that other black people
know, like, it's cool, and likewhen you and then when you see
it, like, Look at these coolguys, wet scuba diving, you
(12:43):
know. And these women, they wentscuba diving, oh, like, it's
cool, you know, you're realized,like, it's fine for us to go
anywhere now. I mean, Ipersonally have had some success
in my career as far as beingable to code switch, right? And,
I mean, I think everybody has tosome extent. Well, wait, do you
(13:05):
think it's code switching ormasking? Do you think it's code
switching or masking? No,there's, well, there's
absolutely code switching forsure. I mean, like I am
performing different modes of mypersonality with different
audiences, and I am, because ofmy particular background, I am
(13:25):
maybe a little bit better at itthan x person, right? There's
others who are better than me,right? But I'm a little bit
better than this other bird,right? Because, I mean, like,
I'm 12 years in in New Englandprivate school, so I knew very
well how to, when I came to NewYork to be a writer, I knew how
to talk to the whites so thatthey felt very comfortable with
(13:50):
my intelligence, with having mearound, you know, you understand
like, you know, if you make themfeel like they're racist, that's
like the let's that's the thingthat will, You know, but you
also need to stand your groundwhen things happen right, when
things are said that really hurtyou, right? But just, you know,
just there was a time when Ithen there was, let's say, a
(14:12):
group of people who had come toNew York, maybe seven, six or
seven of us who had come to NewYork from around the country,
some from New York, but somefrom other places, Detroit, LA,
whatever, to be writers abouthip hop, right? I dream of
writing about hip hop. I came toNew York. I'm trying to do this.
And most of that, all the restof them were writing for black
(14:36):
publications, the source, doubleXL, stuff like that. I vibe. I
was writing for Rolling Stone,
and I was really the only one atthat stage that got on at a
white publication. But thatstage of history, and, you know,
you could, I could see, I thinkothers could see, like he can
(14:59):
talk to the.
White's a little bit better. Sothen we can, right? I mean, I
think they would have said wedon't want what he has. But
there, I think there was anunderstanding of, like, just,
you know, just how tocommunicate with them is really,
is really important. Do yourefuse code switching?
(15:19):
Because the reason why I try todifferentiate between code
switching and masking is justroot word wise, code means
language switching means backand forth. So I find code
switching to be solely language.However, the aspect of masking
is what I find most black peopleto be doing. And the reason why
it's important to differentiatebetween the two is because
masking contributes to greateraspects of suicide, ideation,
burnout, anxiety, depression,loss of identity. I'm not
(15:41):
pretending to be something. I'mnot in the code switching. I am
speaking and masking to mesuggests hiding something. I am
speaking appropriately to theaudience. I don't speak to my
little niece the same way Ispeak to my grandmother, but I
am still me, but I understand,if I do the high voice and very
(16:05):
direct words, she willunderstand, right? If I do a
softer tone, right with mygrandma, like she'll understand
that talk to my friends adifferent way. I'm not being
myself. I'm just putting is itexhausting? I mean,
you know
that? I mean, that's a muchbigger question. And always
(16:29):
strive to have my work be blackcentric,
right? So my imagined reader isa black person, and thinking
about what they know and don'tknow and what they care about
and don't care about.
And that goes down likegranularly in sentences.
Somebody, I was on televisionreading something once, and
(16:50):
somebody said they was, we weretalking about Cassius Clay, and
when he changed his name, it wasvery controversial. And I was
like, wait a whoa. Hold on. Itwas not controversial to black
people. So what are we sayinghere? Right? We have to change
this sentence, because this isonly reflecting white people's
opinion. Because black people,my father used to talk about
(17:12):
black people, were like, goahead. Like, we're down first
one. Be like, if you like it, Ilove it, even if we don't even
like it, you know. Like, just belike, All right, okay, but the
movement to the public movementto Islam, from, you know, Kareem
Ali, some other people, likeblack people, were like, the
most black people were like,That's fine. Like, you know, we
(17:34):
were thinking about beingturning Islam ourselves. So,
like, that, you did it. Like,that's cool. It was
controversial white people. ButI'm so, I'm like, I'm not
saying,
you know, but I mean, like, yougotta do what you gotta do to
get along with your co workerssometimes. And, you know,
I don't feel like I'm givingsomething up because I didn't
(17:55):
say ain't, because that wouldnot communicate to them, and it
reads to you, and it meanssomething to you, right? I'm
being in communion with you whenI say, you know, my sister ain't
no, but like, I don't need tosay that to them. Like, that's
not the audience. Do you thinkthere's a time where you where
can you identify? A time whereyou feel like you were masking,
(18:17):
or do you feel like you've neverhad to
that? I was masking. You mean,like hiding, you know, I mean my
See, part of the thing is,
well, you're saying hiding.
But my career has been in almostentirely writing about Black
(18:39):
culture and black subjects, evenif I'm at a white publication,
New York Times, Rolling Stone,what have you,
art form, whatever, I'm stillthe black guy writing about
black stuff. Okay, so I'm neverhaving to
pretend or mask.
You know? I'm just, I just needto be able to communicate. I am
(19:01):
smart enough to talk about thisculture in your white
publication and to make it seepart of the game is to make it
clear to them that this isvaluable.
So because I'm part of a periodwhen we still kind of had to
(19:23):
argue for at the beginning, westill had to argue for the
viability and importance of hiphop in these mainstream
publications. We had a wholewhen Snoop Dogg was doing his
debut album, solo album. There'sa whole argument with the New
York Times about whether or notthis even merited coverage. And
(19:43):
I'm like, you've got to bekidding. This is, like, the
biggest they didn't really getit. It took, I took a month. I
just remembered this. It took amonth of conversation. I mean,
like every single day on thephone with the editor and.
Talking, and he's black, but hehas to go to white people above
him, and to talking about SnoopDogg every day to finally get
(20:09):
him to be like, Okay, I thinkthis will work. I think we can.
I can sell this to them. Theydidn't get it. And part, I think
part of the thing that made itwork was the notion that Snoop
within his voice carries notesof the great migration, because
his people are from Mississippi,and he sounds like he has a
(20:32):
southern accent, even thoughhe's from Southern California.
So you can hear that in like thetwang is very Southern
California, but it's alsoreminiscent of Mississippi and
the Deep South. So when I'm ableto bring in that level of
(20:53):
analysis of Snoop beyond justhe's a great rapper, then they
were able to be like, Okay, thismakes sense for us
so there's no masking. I'm notpretending to not be black. I'm
not. I'm trying to say, I'mtrying to say, blackness is
deeper than you realize, and Ihave to fight to get them to see
it, and I may have to use theirverbal tools to get them to see
(21:18):
it. But then I'm we're talkingabout blackness the whole time.
Yeah, I get that. I guess Inever see it as a pretending. I
mean, it's just
academia wise. It's typically, Iguess it is an aspect of
pretending, but it's seen as asurvival technique, like it's a
survival strategy. Honestly, themost, the majority of the
research that's done when itcomes to masking is with
(21:38):
individuals with autism spectrumdisorder, and then in doing the
research and that, I'm like, Oh,this is what most black people
do every day. I don't see manybut I don't see the way that
you're able to limit it tolanguage. I don't see all black
people doing that, or evenhaving the ability to do that. I
see that in terms of changingtheir voice and their laugh and
their posture. I had a patientat one point who was a taller
(21:59):
black man who would literallyshrink himself and not be
standing in meetings because hefelt his height would be
perceived as threatening topeople, right, changing the
clothes, changing the topicsthat they even discussed, which,
like I, I see it differently. Idon't I see it as a survival
strategy, and maybe, andthinking of talking to you about
it and that pretending aspect ofit, they're pretending as a way
(22:20):
to survive. But I've seen it
in more than communication. Iwould not, yeah, I would not
question the research thatyou've gotten from, you know,
looking at multiple patients. Iwould say that for me, because I
(22:41):
was talking about, I'm here totalk about Black culture, be it
on CNN or rolling stone orwherever.
I still feel comfortablecommunicating a certain amount
of, yeah, I'm black. Like, Idon't have to hide myself, you
know. I mean, like, like, youknow. So I don't have to
(23:02):
separate myself from that, youknow, because I'm clearly going
to talk about the blacksubjects. I'm here to talk about
the black subjects, yeah, Imean, you know, I think part of
being in, part of the privateschool experience, was like, you
know, here's how to be blackwithin that. So we're not
(23:22):
erasing that part of ourselves.For you, we are figuring out how
to present that in a way that wecan all still get along and I
get what I need out of thisexchange,
but I never want you to forgetthat I'm black because that I
know that is part of what makesme valuable in these media
(23:43):
spaces, yeah, and I don't wantto be the only one, but if I
understand that I am the onlyone, then I need to make sure
you don't like I love beingblack. I'm all about that, and
I'm going to bring that into mywork see for me at Rolling
Stone, especially
I went through this. I It wasvery hard to get an assignment
(24:05):
to write about a white person.And they would ask me questions
in my earlier years, stuff like,you know, Can you can you write
about a white person? Like, whenI was first, like, do your hands
just like, tighten up as soon asyou write the word Madonna,
right? Like,
(24:26):
even when, when I was the firsttime I met with somebody, a top
editor, asking if I could gofrom freelance to a contract
writer, which meant, you know,we have to give you, you know,
eight or 10 stories a year,whatever it was, because, like,
you know you're on contract now.And the guy said, Well, we know
you can write about Run DMC, butcould you write about Bob Dylan
(24:51):
say, like, I don't have theflexibility, and I'm going, I
don't remember what I said,because, as I don't know if I
can defeat this argument in theroom.
I have to defeat it in adifferent way. But I'm like, Bob
Dylan comes directly from blackmusic. So is Eric Clapton. He
said, Eric Clapton. He said,Eric Clapton. And that's why I
(25:11):
was like, he's a blues artist.Like, what are you talking
about? And I mean, I'm like 26at the time, and he's like 50,
so I don't know, I don't havethe spirits that I would now to
be like, that's like, the worstexample you could give, like,
he's a blues artist. Like, itwould be incredibly valuable for
us, me and Eric Clapton, to havea conversation about the blues
(25:33):
and talk to a black person aboutthe blues. But you know, that's
the notion of like, well, we seeyou able to do black stuff. So
if I know that you see me ableto do black stuff, I'm
comfortable coming into thesituation is like, Yeah, I'm a
black person. I love hip hop. Iwas at the club last night. I
feel very comfortable. Youshould feel comfortable sending
(25:54):
me out to hang out with rappers.Because, like, that's my
cousins, that's my brothers.Like, that's easy stuff for me
talking to you, not you DrMartin, but you white editor of
Rolling Stone, that I can alsodo, right? But you know, but you
know, you don't have toquestion, can he go hang out
with A Tribe Called Quest? Weknow that. But also, look, he's
(26:14):
in this room with his editor,having a very writerly
conversation, like I he I didn'tsee it as exhausting. I think
the space that I was able tooccupy was enough for me. Just
now, you mentioned I didn't knowif this was something that I was
going to I think you said, fightin the room or outside of the
room. Can you explain thedifference to me with that like,
(26:38):
because I'm sure many peoplehave had issues, and I like the
fact that you differentiated inthe room or outside the room. So
can you share more about whatthat looks like? You're Yeah,
you're in the midst of acorporate structure. Let's say
there's 10 people there.
The top person is not your ally.They are the ultimate decider of
(27:00):
what happens, right? I aminteracting with the top person.
I am in this part of my life. Iam low on this in this group of
10 people, right? And I'm tryingto move up
the number two or three personis my ace. They are vouching for
me. That's why I was able to getinto the top 10, right? Because
(27:21):
the number two or three, maybetwo, three and four are like, we
really like him. He's reallygood. The number one person is
like, I'm still not sure I couldargue with the number one
person, and I may not get what Iwant out of that, because
challenging the number oneperson as the number 10 person
(27:42):
could be insulting to them,right? You can't defrock them.
You can't tell them you'rewrong. You're an idiot, like you
have to speak to them in a waythat allows them to change their
mind without feeling like theywere wrong, and you engaging in
a direct logical argument. Sir.Eric Clapton is a blues artist.
(28:07):
Of course, I could do that.Maine may be like, they, you
have to know the person. Theymay be like, good idea. That's
You're right. But what aboutKurt Cobain, like, okay, so that
that right. They don't come fromthe blues, right? So that
harder,
or you could retreat from thatspecific meeting and that
(28:28):
specific conversation, becauseyou're not trying to get a job.
You're already in this corporatestructure. You're just trying to
move up to get a new project, toget a new title, whatever. So go
back to the people who are youraces, and speak to them and get
them to be your ally and tospeak to the top person about
(28:48):
hey, I really think he would begood for that project. Better to
come from somebody elseadvocating for you than you
fighting for yourself. And
why is it important to not letthem know they were wrong?
Nobody likes to be told thatthey're wrong. And the higher
you move up in any structure, inany human structure, the less
(29:14):
often you'll be told that youknow and like when you are told
you're wrong, for the most part,humans get defensive, and they
generally won't change. Peoplegenerally don't change their
mind when presented withinformation that shows that they
were wrong. Most of the time,most people are not won over by
(29:38):
a logical appeal. They are wonover by an emotional appeal more
often, but please does not workin any corporate setting.
So, so I'm just saying yeah,that it's about marshaling
allies to talk up for you, asopposed.
(30:00):
You arguing as if you're in a asif you're in a debate, you're
not in a debate. It's not aboutthe idea, the specific idea,
it's about the opinion in thatgroup of you.
And if you get another person inthat group to argue on your
behalf, they are saying, I standbeside Dr Martin, she's cool.
(30:22):
She deserves tenure. I you know,like I'm I think she's a great
addition to our full time staff,whatever it is. But also you are
not in a powerful position whenyou're saying my resume is the
facts of why I deserve X are.That is not a powerful position
somebody else who knows, yo,she's been here 15 years. She
(30:46):
has two PhDs. She wrote threebooks. She should get tenure.
That person going above thenumber 234, person going above,
saying she deserves tenure, orwhatever it is we're talking
about, that is more powerfulthan you advocating for
yourself. So that's how I'msaying that I can I win this
argument in this room? I don'tknow, and I don't want to get
(31:09):
into a small ball. The point is,Can I do the job? Right? The
small ball argument, can youwrite about this specific old,
white person like, I don't wantto engage in that. I want you to
know I can do the job, and thenumber two guy can come back in
here later chill it out and tellyou, like, Yo, he can definitely
(31:29):
do the job. And I ended upgetting the job of retreating
from that room talking tosomebody else. I didn't tell him
a sob story. It was just like,hey, I really want to be on
contract. And he's like, Okay,let me go talk to Bob and figure
it out.
Yeah? I mean, I feel like I talkabout that all day, but I don't
want to waste, I'm not wasteyour time, but I know you're I
just, I just have a naturalcontrarian. I just,
(31:54):
yeah, I mean, like, I would wantyou would argue with him. Well,
it's not, it's not, it's notargument, right? Because, like,
these are just facts. Earth isround, water is wet. I can't I
can do this like, it's not anargument. Like, this is just
what it is. But there's alsothat aspect of, I
feel like the reason why we'rehaving issues that we are having
now was because people aren'ttold that they're wrong, and
(32:17):
it's because of their power, andbecause of that individuals
rightfully so have, like, afear, but not telling people
that they're wrong. And then theaspect of like, you have people
who will go around and be like,they'll advocate for you, but
some people aren't going to dothat. So the person is never
going to be told that they'rewrong. They're going to keep
doing wrong things. Their levelof power is going to create,
like, a great silo for that. Andit's because, well, nobody likes
(32:40):
being told they're wrong. Well,work on yourself and stop being
wrong. I just I don't, I knownobody likes it, but I think
there's a way to, I know the waythat you're talking about doing
it, but I would want to do it inthe room,
because I think what you'retalking about is the epitome of
like, well, we're not talkingabout like.
You got to know who calling inversus calling out. Yeah, you
(33:02):
may feel like I have arelationship with this leader
that allows me to say,
I mean, you know, context, look,yeah, I mean, you know, if you
have that relationship, then gofor it. You know, if you don't,
then you can retreat and say,I'm gonna get my ally to to do
(33:26):
this for me. But I mean,
I know just from personalexperience, when someone says
you're wrong, I get defensive.If somebody says,
Let me show you another way tolook at it, I'm like, oh, okay,
tell me. And like, Well, I wouldlook at it this way. And it's
like, Oh, you didn't say I waswrong. You allowed me to feel
(33:51):
good about what I believe, butyou also showed me a new way.
Like, okay, all right, I feelvalidated. And at the same time
pointed to a new way of seeingthings. But you know, when
you're with that's talking aboutideas, if you're talking about
yourself, it's just maybetrickier. Yeah. I mean, this is
(34:13):
not a this is not necessarilythe tactic you have to use in
every situation. No, you askedme about that idea of arguing
outside the room, yeah, and I'lljust end up this one, because I
think that this is somethingthat I would really like to hear
more from you about. What do youfeel like now? I mean, you wrote
this book. When did you writethis book?
(34:36):
2010 I think 2010 2012
so at least a decade ago, 2010because they were like, You
better hurry up and finish this,because we don't know if Obama
will be reelected, then we'renot publishing this. We're not
publishing this. But it was likethis. You have to get this done
before Obama is running again.Well, something you talk about a
(34:57):
lot is being rooted in, but notrestricted by.
Race, what do you think thatlooks like? Now,
I mean, look, I don't think that
looks much different. Now, thereare things that I would do
differently if I started writingthis book. Now, okay, maybe
(35:19):
that's the question. That's thequestion, what would you do
differently? I mean, I do a lotof things differently, you know.
I mean, I don't want to do awhole critique of the book, but
I mean, I mean, you know, BLMhad not happened. You know,
that's a whole deeperconversation. I
think the notion of unapologeticblackness doesn't really come
(35:40):
into this discussion, becausethat's not where I was going. I
was going toward. Let's talkabout fluidity, but unapologetic
blackness is really important,and it feels good, and it is
self affirming, and I think it'sa great sort of example for
others around us. You know, Imean, I would have to include
more of an economicconversation, because it's very
(36:02):
spiritual. And somebody is like,this is for middle class people.
And like,
Yeah. Somebody like, yeah. Imean, yeah, kind of there's not
an economic component to it. Andyou know, the rash of deaths,
the Thrash of famous deaths thathappened after publication, that
(36:22):
alone would lead me to talkingabout this entirely differently.
You mentioned because just fulldisclosure private I was in
private school for a coupleyears. I'm from Philly. My mom
was working like a bunch of jobsto put me through private
school. It was one of the worstexperiences of my life. The only
reason why I didn't tell her isbecause I knew she was working
hard to send me through privateschool. But you mentioned
private school a lot as one ofthe reasons why you're able, you
were able to kind of get in thateducation and to understand how
(36:44):
to engage community, like incommunication. And you also
mentioned the fact that youdon't feel like you're masking.
You understand that it's codeswitching and it's changing your
language, right? What do youthink contributes to because I
have to expect that, like,you've been around people who
probably have felt the need tomask, or you've seen them doing
(37:05):
that, and what do you thinkcontributes to your experience
being so different in terms ofnot having to do that,
versus the possibility, and thisis, of course, opining, but
like, the possibility of otherindividuals not feeling
comfortable doing that, and it'snot solely about language for
them, because you're very openabout like, No, I don't have to
do that. But that's not, youknow, like, what there's I can't
speak to others experience inthat way. I know that,
(37:31):
you know, in high school andbefore I learned how to function
in these all white rooms, right?
At times. That was a painfulexperience, but I learned how to
do it. I also learned that thewhite man's ice is not any
(37:52):
colder. They don't know anythingthat we don't know. They're not
inherently smarter. So itwasn't, I mean, and I was
educated around some reallybrilliant kids, but overall,
like, white people are notsmarter than us, like they don't
have some inherent advantageintellectually or mentally over
(38:12):
us, like they have moreconnections. But like, yeah,
that's what it is, you know. SoI was, I came out of being
around a ton of white people,mostly in high school, also in
college and graduate school, butmostly the high school
experience is more formative oflike, not being all that
impressed with them in general,like they're fine, but they
(38:36):
like,
they ain't smarter than me. Theydon't know something I don't
know. Yeah, so, you know, I feltconfident to go to war with
them. As far as I'm trying tomake it in media, you're trying
to make it in media too. Like,okay, let's see what happens,
you know, and I feel confidentof my skills. Like, I remember
(39:00):
the first time the first thingwe wrote in graduate school. I
went to graduate school forcreative writing Columbia, the
first thing that we wrote, weread them in class. And then
afterward, we came outside andthere was like a circle of like
six, five or six, probably sixpeople who were, like, among the
(39:23):
best in the class, just sort oftalking.
And I never forget, somebodyturned to somebody else and
said, How long did you spend onyour essay? Because, like, write
a 500 word essay, how long didyou spend on your essay? And
then they said, how long theyspent. And then they asked
somebody else. And there waskind of like chatter, kind of
(39:44):
like this group conversationhappening, but there's also
chatter. And then the thirdperson, she turned to me and
said, How long did you spend?And the way she said it, I
realized that whole line ofquestioning was to get to asking
how long I spent, because shewas like, because clearly and
when.
He asked me they all stoppedtalking because they were like,
We want to know how long hespent, which that moment alone
(40:07):
told me they all thought, Oh,his was the best. So, like, how
long does it take to be the bestin the room? And I don't I mean,
the amount of time I spentrelative to them is not
important. The point was that Isaw right away that they all
were like, holy shit, he's thebest one in that group. And
there was nothing,
(40:29):
nothing that had ever occurredto me that I wouldn't be
because, like, I've been aroundyou guys my whole life. I know I
can fucking like, now you knowwhen it was science and math.
Also, I'm like, I hate scienceand math.
I just hate those fuckingsubjects in literature. I'm
crushing y'all. So then we getto graduate school and we're
(40:50):
just doing writing. Oh, forgetit. I can beat y'all at this. So
do you think it's because you,instead of being in the silos of
just solely being around peoplethat look like you, you were
able to actually have thatexperience, to know that the ice
isn't colder.
That was very helpful to me. Tome, I also understand the self
(41:11):
esteem that can be nurtured in avery black experience. Yeah, you
know, I remember the first timeI went to the AUC and was on the
yard around Spelman andMorehouse kids, and was like
their level of self esteem isclearly different than ours. I
mean, they are emanating adifferent light, and they are
(41:35):
very deeply comfortable withthemselves in ways that we over
at Emory are not like this is soI saw that firsthand, and that's
just from being on the yard. I'mnot right. I mean, if I went
into the experience completely,it's like, amazing.
So there that is a very valuableexperience. My experience pwis
(41:58):
learning their ice is notcolder. They are not any smarter
than us. There's no reason why Ican't defeat them in any
intellectual game.
That was very helpful to me.
Okay, I like that. And I mean,it's what gravitated it's what
caught my attention when it cameto the book in the first place,
your story about why you decidedyou know, to start off with the
(42:20):
book, because that was theexperience of the party and on,
on, on campus. And that's,that's like, I saw the video,
and I was like, Oh, thatfreaking sucks.
Honestly, and honestly, even asa psychologist, I'm And it very
much. I get it's, I'm veryPhilly. I automatically go to,
like, anger, which, you know, DrMartin has a psychologist as
(42:43):
well, but like, I was just likethat just pissed me off. That
just really just pissed me,like, what the
ratify? Because, yeah, it wasmortifying and hurtful. But to
think deeply about it and have avery thoughtful response. And
(43:04):
to, even now,
to tell that story, and have somany people be like, you know,
bravo. Good for you, you know. Imean, I have people, black
people who, if I looked at them,I would not think that they
would that story would resonatefor them, and they're like, that
was great. I mean, your storywent viral, like on campus,
(43:25):
right? Like everybody wasreading your I mean, oh, I mean,
now, but yes, then, yes, it wasviral. We didn't use that word
then, but
that community, yeah, but thenthis now, telling it now. And
all these people were like, Ihad a similar experience. I had
a similar experience. Somebodysaid I wasn't I was really
(43:46):
powerful.
Steve, Hello everyone, and welcome to Mind your mental
just a reminder that thispodcast is not meant to be a
substitute for a relationshipwith a licensed mental health
professional. I know they arehard to find, and I get that I
have a bunch of resources on mywebsite if you need them, but I
am not your clinician. I am apsychologist, but I am not your
(00:21):
psychologist. So if you need anyspecific help, please look for
the help of a licensed mentalhealth professional. Learn all
you can learn from the podcast.Enjoy the episode, but thank you
so much for coming on the show.One of the reasons why I wanted
to talk to you today was I sawyour post about what led to you
writing your first book, who'safraid of post blackness, what
it means to be black now, and itinstantly made me think of the
(00:44):
conceptual framework I've beentrying to come up with for black
identity development. I'vealways felt that the other ones
are kind of limiting, becausenot limiting, okay, I don't want
to say limiting. As a scientist,I've always felt as though, when
I've read them, that we weremissing a certain aspect of it.
And I don't know if you're awareof me, but I'm a professor at
Tsu. I'm also a psychologist,but I also publish tsu,
(01:06):
Tennessee State University.Yeah, great, cool.
And one of the things inteaching is that I've noticed
that I feel like there aredifferent things that are being
missed from the frameworks thatare out there and engaging with
the students and things of thatnature. One of the I am an
intellectual, not an academic,not an academician, right? And I
understand the difference,right? And one of the things I
(01:27):
noticed in the book, becausethere's folks from the Academy,
and then there's smart, regularfolks in the book, and the
notion of the performance of theblackness as a performance. To
all the academicians, were like,yes, of course, and to almost
all civilians, was offensive andtriggering. And like, What are
(01:49):
you talking about? It's not aperformance. It's just who I am.
And just explaining to them thenotion of, well, personality is
a performance. And it was like,this was like, just even the
idea that personality was aperformance was revolutionary to
them. There's a space just, it'sjust kind of an awareness of
what we're talking about, as faras fluidity. But yes, I don't
(02:11):
feel comfortable with anydefinition of blackness that
excludes any black person,right? And including traitorous
choices with it, right? LikeCandace Owens is a traitor to
blackness, right? Where onemight, you know, I can name any
(02:32):
number of people who we mightagree, like that person's an
Oreo, right? Like in thetraditional vision of what that
means, right? But even thosechoices are African American
choices to the situation thatwe're in, right? So it couldn't
just be, you know, one of the,one of the things that we talk
about, the notion of a sense ofan essentialist vision of what
(02:54):
blackness means really redoundsto it's really about being from
the hood, as if blackness, as ifthe hood is the refrigerator and
blackness is the milk, and thelonger it goes outside of the
fridge, it spoils, right? And Iwas like, like, you could be
black in Beverly Hills and PGCounty and, like, with money.
And like, you know, it doesn'thave to be hood. It doesn't have
(03:16):
to be, you know, rooted in JamesBrown. It could be many
different things. Yeah, becauseeven with your mention of like
the individuals who arecatastrophic to the black
experience, like to quote yourbook, you specifically
mentioned, I think what ClarenceThomas has done on the Supreme
Court is wholly destructive toblack folk, and I'm willing to
root my arguments about hiscatastrophic performance in
(03:38):
Reason claims about politics andrace, but he isn't any less
black than I am. He's got adifferent take on blackness and
race than I do
mean we are all responding toracism in one way or another.
Yeah, many of us choose torespond to racism by building
community, right? And I feelsafe because I see a person like
(04:02):
you, and I can talk to you andbond with you, and I feel like,
well, she's a sister, so Ishould be able to feel close to
her. And he's responding toracism also, he's just choosing
a different response andthinking that you know being
aligning with them will keep himsafe. Hey, everyone, just a
(04:23):
reminder that mind, your mentalis not just a podcast. It is
also a amazing community. If Ido say so myself, it's
phenomenal. I mean, you get moreaccess to me. What more could
you want in this life? So if youwant to join the community, if
you're not already on thecommunity, go to my social
media. My social media is thesame Raquel Martin, PhD and DM
(04:45):
me the word community so you canget details on joining this
amazing, flipping community. Youget more access to me. Y'all
like,
I'm a delight. All right. Allright. Hope to see you there. I
wholeheartedly try to and.
Body and work in the aspect oflike, I'm not only pro blackness
that mirrors my own, and then Ialso instantly get pissed when I
(05:07):
hear people's names in thatrealm that I think have also
been kind of shocked to theblack experience. And then
there's always this conflictwith that whole aspect of like,
all right now, well, you can'tsay I'm only pro blackness, that
I'm only I can't say I'm onlypro blackness when it doesn't,
you know, I'm not only pro blackwhen it means my own and then
still get mad and just be like,because I've never stated the
(05:27):
aspect of like people aren'tblack enough as someone who's
had the, you know, penultimateinsult of being, like, talking
white. But it's, I feel likeit's also tough. It's also like,
really tough to be like, Allright, I'll be real, though.
That man pisses me off. I mean,it kind of becomes a little
semantic, almost, because I'mjust saying these are all
(05:49):
responses to being black inAmerica, yeah. Now, now that is
a problematic and troublingresponse. Condoleezza Rice,
Candace Owens, Jason Whitlock,like that's a horrible response,
right? That is anti thecommunity as opposed but I'm not
saying those are not they are inmany ways, anti black, but they
(06:10):
are not black, right? Like,we're missing it if we think
you're not black. Now, if youcategorize it as they are anti
black, absolutely. And I pushback against the notion that
black people can't be racist bysaying, Well, you know, Candace
Owens is one obvious example. Isworking in service of white
supremacy. She doesn't have thepower, right? That argument's
(06:31):
always like, well, alwayscertain people have power. She
has power in her world to makeus look bad and give comfort and
space and power to racistpeople. So she's working in
service of white supremacy. Sothat is racism, that is active
racism. You know, the other partof the notion still stands. But
(06:54):
I'm like, of course we could beracist, right there. Yeah, I get
pushback on that all the time,and I think it's I'm sorry. One
thing you'll see, I'm sorry whatI do, just remind I haven't
thought about this book a longtime. One thing that I see, I
think that we put that I foundthat comes in about the middle
of the book, a psychologicalstudy, I found that, like, even
(07:15):
black people who are not, Idon't know how to frame this
like
who are not I'm gonnacolloquially, I'm not all there
very few black people wish to bewhite, right? That's very rare,
right? So it's not that we wantto escape blackness and become
(07:37):
white, but I think some of us dosee
a value and a power insurrounding yourself with them
and not threatening them. That'sthe thing, right? That if you
are non, if you are too nonthreatening to white people,
then we get upset, right? Likewe like to see us like you're
(07:57):
willing to tell them off, right?You're willing to scratch them
right, as opposed to, like, youknow, I've seen a lot of right,
righteous attack on Emmanuelacho recently, who did this
horrible white centric show,right? Did you ever see it?
Because, yeah, I did a responseto just his statement to Angel
Reese. Because it really bad,for sure. Yeah, but he did this
(08:21):
whole white centric show wherehe would talk to white people
about racism, and it's very muchlike, let's sit and make you
comfortable to have aconversation with a black man. I
think it was uncomfortableconversations and but it was
this group of white people werelike, Let's make it easy for you
to have this conversation andsay that you feel bad about like
you're just helping the whites,but you're completely non
(08:43):
threatening. And that bothersus, right? When we're like,
you're completely nonthreatening to the whites, like,
I even think that aspect of whenyou mentioned the you know, the
proximity, it's out of fear,right? Because it's just like
you understand that closeness.If you're trying to get closer
to whiteness, it's because youknow that if you're seen as
safe, maybe you won't be as lessdangerous, maybe you'll have
(09:04):
some aspect of freedom and andit, I mean, like in your book,
you particularly mentioned, whenyou did the show, I'll try
anything once, right? And youwere talking in the book about,
like, and also, I know youhaven't thought about the book
in a while, but, like, I kind ofthink you should redo with the
same questions, with new people.Just going to throw that out
there, but because the questionsyou have in the beginning are
(09:25):
really good questions. So I knowyou haven't thought about it in
a while,
but I think it's worth it to dothe entire, you know, do like it
and do it with new people,because the questions are really
good. Thank you. And I would,you know, anyway, but when you
mentioned that aspect of the itwas the story about jumping out
of the jumping out of planeskydiving, and you mentioned you
(09:45):
were sitting at the table beforeyou went skydiving, and there
were three black gentlemen whorecognized you, and you told
them what you were doing, andthey were like, Oh, we don't
black people. Don't do that. Andlike, it seemed like, from what
I read, it was like whisperingin a tone because you were
sitting with non black people.And they were just like.
Like, Oh, I just want to wakeyou up. Like, I just want to,
you know, what is it? Hit thetea, hit the spoon on the
teacup, because you must be outof it. We don't do that, right?
(10:08):
And I instantly knew what youwere talking about, because the
Whisper is just like, it's theWhisper. And one of the things
you mentioned is how you knowit's limiting to be in that
realm, right? Like, a lot of thethings that you mentioned in the
book are how these thoughtprocesses are limiting. I forget
who you were interviewingparticularly, but they mentioned
they hated the concept of beingreal, because that just made it
(10:28):
limiting. Even in this example,you just gave about, like,
blackness being in the fridge,and the longer the fridge being
the hood, the longer in thehood, the more salient it is.
You could come out with that.And I've always felt as though,
and it is very much true, thatlike that is kind of what like
chokes us in terms of gettingout there and knowing more about
ourselves and as a result,contributing to the community
(10:49):
and the way it deserves. Becausethe same way you mentioned that,
like European American childrenhave been doing people have been
doing this their whole life,that freedom, that whole
stereotypical aspect of it, thatwhole, there's only one right
way to be black, that whole,like adultification,
dehumanization, all it does iscontributes to white supremacy,
but that robs our freedoms, andin doing so, we're honestly, in
my opinion, contributing to thesublimation of the black
(11:12):
experience and what we canbecome under the guise of being
black enough, if that makessense, like it's because it's
just limiting, Right? Like, thewhole reason why I think it's
infuriating, because it's justlike, you know, and in stating
that there's one right way to beblack, you're trying to
basically, like, hone in on theblack experience and save our
culture. But in doing that,you're actually robbing us of
(11:34):
the possibility of our cultureto grow. And I don't think many
people see it that way, whichcan be difficult, definitely
seen over my years, especiallylike 70s and 80s, there'll be
these little clubs, uh, blackskiers, black scuba divers, who
were doing things that blackpeople don't do, right? And they
(11:56):
were like, We're doing them. Andthere was this air of like we
need to show others like, thisis cool. It's cool to ski, it's
cool to skydive, it's cool toscuba dive, whatever it may be.
And like they they did it out oflove, but also a sense of like,
(12:19):
you know, we're we can take ourblackness is portable, like we
could take it with us to scubadiving, to skiing, whatever. And
like, you know, these places mayor may not want us, but we're
going anyway, but also makingsure that other black people
know, like, it's cool, and likewhen you and then when you see
it, like, Look at these coolguys, wet scuba diving, you
(12:43):
know. And these women, they wentscuba diving, oh, like, it's
cool, you know, you're realized,like, it's fine for us to go
anywhere now. I mean, Ipersonally have had some success
in my career as far as beingable to code switch, right? And,
I mean, I think everybody has tosome extent. Well, wait, do you
(13:05):
think it's code switching ormasking? Do you think it's code
switching or masking? No,there's, well, there's
absolutely code switching forsure. I mean, like I am
performing different modes of mypersonality with different
audiences, and I am, because ofmy particular background, I am
(13:25):
maybe a little bit better at itthan x person, right? There's
others who are better than me,right? But I'm a little bit
better than this other bird,right? Because, I mean, like,
I'm 12 years in in New Englandprivate school, so I knew very
well how to, when I came to NewYork to be a writer, I knew how
to talk to the whites so thatthey felt very comfortable with
(13:50):
my intelligence, with having mearound, you know, you understand
like, you know, if you make themfeel like they're racist, that's
like the let's that's the thingthat will, You know, but you
also need to stand your groundwhen things happen right, when
things are said that really hurtyou, right? But just, you know,
just there was a time when Ithen there was, let's say, a
(14:12):
group of people who had come toNew York, maybe seven, six or
seven of us who had come to NewYork from around the country,
some from New York, but somefrom other places, Detroit, LA,
whatever, to be writers abouthip hop, right? I dream of
writing about hip hop. I came toNew York. I'm trying to do this.
And most of that, all the restof them were writing for black
(14:36):
publications, the source, doubleXL, stuff like that. I vibe. I
was writing for Rolling Stone,
and I was really the only one atthat stage that got on at a
white publication. But thatstage of history, and, you know,
you could, I could see, I thinkothers could see, like he can
(14:59):
talk to the.
White's a little bit better. Sothen we can, right? I mean, I
think they would have said wedon't want what he has. But
there, I think there was anunderstanding of, like, just,
you know, just how tocommunicate with them is really,
is really important. Do yourefuse code switching?
(15:19):
Because the reason why I try todifferentiate between code
switching and masking is justroot word wise, code means
language switching means backand forth. So I find code
switching to be solely language.However, the aspect of masking
is what I find most black peopleto be doing. And the reason why
it's important to differentiatebetween the two is because
masking contributes to greateraspects of suicide, ideation,
burnout, anxiety, depression,loss of identity. I'm not
(15:41):
pretending to be something. I'mnot in the code switching. I am
speaking and masking to mesuggests hiding something. I am
speaking appropriately to theaudience. I don't speak to my
little niece the same way Ispeak to my grandmother, but I
am still me, but I understand,if I do the high voice and very
(16:05):
direct words, she willunderstand, right? If I do a
softer tone, right with mygrandma, like she'll understand
that talk to my friends adifferent way. I'm not being
myself. I'm just putting is itexhausting? I mean,
you know
that? I mean, that's a muchbigger question. And always
(16:29):
strive to have my work be blackcentric,
right? So my imagined reader isa black person, and thinking
about what they know and don'tknow and what they care about
and don't care about.
And that goes down likegranularly in sentences.
Somebody, I was on televisionreading something once, and
(16:50):
somebody said they was, we weretalking about Cassius Clay, and
when he changed his name, it wasvery controversial. And I was
like, wait a whoa. Hold on. Itwas not controversial to black
people. So what are we sayinghere? Right? We have to change
this sentence, because this isonly reflecting white people's
opinion. Because black people,my father used to talk about
(17:12):
black people, were like, goahead. Like, we're down first
one. Be like, if you like it, Ilove it, even if we don't even
like it, you know. Like, just belike, All right, okay, but the
movement to the public movementto Islam, from, you know, Kareem
Ali, some other people, likeblack people, were like, the
most black people were like,That's fine. Like, you know, we
(17:34):
were thinking about beingturning Islam ourselves. So,
like, that, you did it. Like,that's cool. It was
controversial white people. ButI'm so, I'm like, I'm not
saying,
you know, but I mean, like, yougotta do what you gotta do to
get along with your co workerssometimes. And, you know,
I don't feel like I'm givingsomething up because I didn't
(17:55):
say ain't, because that wouldnot communicate to them, and it
reads to you, and it meanssomething to you, right? I'm
being in communion with you whenI say, you know, my sister ain't
no, but like, I don't need tosay that to them. Like, that's
not the audience. Do you thinkthere's a time where you where
can you identify? A time whereyou feel like you were masking,
(18:17):
or do you feel like you've neverhad to
that? I was masking. You mean,like hiding, you know, I mean my
See, part of the thing is,
well, you're saying hiding.
But my career has been in almostentirely writing about Black
(18:39):
culture and black subjects, evenif I'm at a white publication,
New York Times, Rolling Stone,what have you,
art form, whatever, I'm stillthe black guy writing about
black stuff. Okay, so I'm neverhaving to
pretend or mask.
You know? I'm just, I just needto be able to communicate. I am
(19:01):
smart enough to talk about thisculture in your white
publication and to make it seepart of the game is to make it
clear to them that this isvaluable.
So because I'm part of a periodwhen we still kind of had to
(19:23):
argue for at the beginning, westill had to argue for the
viability and importance of hiphop in these mainstream
publications. We had a wholewhen Snoop Dogg was doing his
debut album, solo album. There'sa whole argument with the New
York Times about whether or notthis even merited coverage. And
(19:43):
I'm like, you've got to bekidding. This is, like, the
biggest they didn't really getit. It took, I took a month. I
just remembered this. It took amonth of conversation. I mean,
like every single day on thephone with the editor and.
Talking, and he's black, but hehas to go to white people above
him, and to talking about SnoopDogg every day to finally get
(20:09):
him to be like, Okay, I thinkthis will work. I think we can.
I can sell this to them. Theydidn't get it. And part, I think
part of the thing that made itwork was the notion that Snoop
within his voice carries notesof the great migration, because
his people are from Mississippi,and he sounds like he has a
(20:32):
southern accent, even thoughhe's from Southern California.
So you can hear that in like thetwang is very Southern
California, but it's alsoreminiscent of Mississippi and
the Deep South. So when I'm ableto bring in that level of
(20:53):
analysis of Snoop beyond justhe's a great rapper, then they
were able to be like, Okay, thismakes sense for us
so there's no masking. I'm notpretending to not be black. I'm
not. I'm trying to say, I'mtrying to say, blackness is
deeper than you realize, and Ihave to fight to get them to see
it, and I may have to use theirverbal tools to get them to see
(21:18):
it. But then I'm we're talkingabout blackness the whole time.
Yeah, I get that. I guess Inever see it as a pretending. I
mean, it's just
academia wise. It's typically, Iguess it is an aspect of
pretending, but it's seen as asurvival technique, like it's a
survival strategy. Honestly, themost, the majority of the
research that's done when itcomes to masking is with
(21:38):
individuals with autism spectrumdisorder, and then in doing the
research and that, I'm like, Oh,this is what most black people
do every day. I don't see manybut I don't see the way that
you're able to limit it tolanguage. I don't see all black
people doing that, or evenhaving the ability to do that. I
see that in terms of changingtheir voice and their laugh and
their posture. I had a patientat one point who was a taller
(21:59):
black man who would literallyshrink himself and not be
standing in meetings because hefelt his height would be
perceived as threatening topeople, right, changing the
clothes, changing the topicsthat they even discussed, which,
like I, I see it differently. Idon't I see it as a survival
strategy, and maybe, andthinking of talking to you about
it and that pretending aspect ofit, they're pretending as a way
(22:20):
to survive. But I've seen it
in more than communication. Iwould not, yeah, I would not
question the research thatyou've gotten from, you know,
looking at multiple patients. Iwould say that for me, because I
(22:41):
was talking about, I'm here totalk about Black culture, be it
on CNN or rolling stone orwherever.
I still feel comfortablecommunicating a certain amount
of, yeah, I'm black. Like, Idon't have to hide myself, you
know. I mean, like, like, youknow. So I don't have to
(23:02):
separate myself from that, youknow, because I'm clearly going
to talk about the blacksubjects. I'm here to talk about
the black subjects, yeah, Imean, you know, I think part of
being in, part of the privateschool experience, was like, you
know, here's how to be blackwithin that. So we're not
(23:22):
erasing that part of ourselves.For you, we are figuring out how
to present that in a way that wecan all still get along and I
get what I need out of thisexchange,
but I never want you to forgetthat I'm black because that I
know that is part of what makesme valuable in these media
(23:43):
spaces, yeah, and I don't wantto be the only one, but if I
understand that I am the onlyone, then I need to make sure
you don't like I love beingblack. I'm all about that, and
I'm going to bring that into mywork see for me at Rolling
Stone, especially
I went through this. I It wasvery hard to get an assignment
(24:05):
to write about a white person.And they would ask me questions
in my earlier years, stuff like,you know, Can you can you write
about a white person? Like, whenI was first, like, do your hands
just like, tighten up as soon asyou write the word Madonna,
right? Like,
(24:26):
even when, when I was the firsttime I met with somebody, a top
editor, asking if I could gofrom freelance to a contract
writer, which meant, you know,we have to give you, you know,
eight or 10 stories a year,whatever it was, because, like,
you know you're on contract now.And the guy said, Well, we know
you can write about Run DMC, butcould you write about Bob Dylan
(24:51):
say, like, I don't have theflexibility, and I'm going, I
don't remember what I said,because, as I don't know if I
can defeat this argument in theroom.
I have to defeat it in adifferent way. But I'm like, Bob
Dylan comes directly from blackmusic. So is Eric Clapton. He
said, Eric Clapton. He said,Eric Clapton. And that's why I
(25:11):
was like, he's a blues artist.Like, what are you talking
about? And I mean, I'm like 26at the time, and he's like 50,
so I don't know, I don't havethe spirits that I would now to
be like, that's like, the worstexample you could give, like,
he's a blues artist. Like, itwould be incredibly valuable for
us, me and Eric Clapton, to havea conversation about the blues
(25:33):
and talk to a black person aboutthe blues. But you know, that's
the notion of like, well, we seeyou able to do black stuff. So
if I know that you see me ableto do black stuff, I'm
comfortable coming into thesituation is like, Yeah, I'm a
black person. I love hip hop. Iwas at the club last night. I
feel very comfortable. Youshould feel comfortable sending
(25:54):
me out to hang out with rappers.Because, like, that's my
cousins, that's my brothers.Like, that's easy stuff for me
talking to you, not you DrMartin, but you white editor of
Rolling Stone, that I can alsodo, right? But you know, but you
know, you don't have toquestion, can he go hang out
with A Tribe Called Quest? Weknow that. But also, look, he's
(26:14):
in this room with his editor,having a very writerly
conversation, like I he I didn'tsee it as exhausting. I think
the space that I was able tooccupy was enough for me. Just
now, you mentioned I didn't knowif this was something that I was
going to I think you said, fightin the room or outside of the
room. Can you explain thedifference to me with that like,
(26:38):
because I'm sure many peoplehave had issues, and I like the
fact that you differentiated inthe room or outside the room. So
can you share more about whatthat looks like? You're Yeah,
you're in the midst of acorporate structure. Let's say
there's 10 people there.
The top person is not your ally.They are the ultimate decider of
(27:00):
what happens, right? I aminteracting with the top person.
I am in this part of my life. Iam low on this in this group of
10 people, right? And I'm tryingto move up
the number two or three personis my ace. They are vouching for
me. That's why I was able to getinto the top 10, right? Because
(27:21):
the number two or three, maybetwo, three and four are like, we
really like him. He's reallygood. The number one person is
like, I'm still not sure I couldargue with the number one
person, and I may not get what Iwant out of that, because
challenging the number oneperson as the number 10 person
(27:42):
could be insulting to them,right? You can't defrock them.
You can't tell them you'rewrong. You're an idiot, like you
have to speak to them in a waythat allows them to change their
mind without feeling like theywere wrong, and you engaging in
a direct logical argument. Sir.Eric Clapton is a blues artist.
(28:07):
Of course, I could do that.Maine may be like, they, you
have to know the person. Theymay be like, good idea. That's
You're right. But what aboutKurt Cobain, like, okay, so that
that right. They don't come fromthe blues, right? So that
harder,
or you could retreat from thatspecific meeting and that
(28:28):
specific conversation, becauseyou're not trying to get a job.
You're already in this corporatestructure. You're just trying to
move up to get a new project, toget a new title, whatever. So go
back to the people who are youraces, and speak to them and get
them to be your ally and tospeak to the top person about
(28:48):
hey, I really think he would begood for that project. Better to
come from somebody elseadvocating for you than you
fighting for yourself. And
why is it important to not letthem know they were wrong?
Nobody likes to be told thatthey're wrong. And the higher
you move up in any structure, inany human structure, the less
(29:14):
often you'll be told that youknow and like when you are told
you're wrong, for the most part,humans get defensive, and they
generally won't change. Peoplegenerally don't change their
mind when presented withinformation that shows that they
were wrong. Most of the time,most people are not won over by
(29:38):
a logical appeal. They are wonover by an emotional appeal more
often, but please does not workin any corporate setting.
So, so I'm just saying yeah,that it's about marshaling
allies to talk up for you, asopposed.
(30:00):
You arguing as if you're in a asif you're in a debate, you're
not in a debate. It's not aboutthe idea, the specific idea,
it's about the opinion in thatgroup of you.
And if you get another person inthat group to argue on your
behalf, they are saying, I standbeside Dr Martin, she's cool.
(30:22):
She deserves tenure. I you know,like I'm I think she's a great
addition to our full time staff,whatever it is. But also you are
not in a powerful position whenyou're saying my resume is the
facts of why I deserve X are.That is not a powerful position
somebody else who knows, yo,she's been here 15 years. She
(30:46):
has two PhDs. She wrote threebooks. She should get tenure.
That person going above thenumber 234, person going above,
saying she deserves tenure, orwhatever it is we're talking
about, that is more powerfulthan you advocating for
yourself. So that's how I'msaying that I can I win this
argument in this room? I don'tknow, and I don't want to get
(31:09):
into a small ball. The point is,Can I do the job? Right? The
small ball argument, can youwrite about this specific old,
white person like, I don't wantto engage in that. I want you to
know I can do the job, and thenumber two guy can come back in
here later chill it out and tellyou, like, Yo, he can definitely
(31:29):
do the job. And I ended upgetting the job of retreating
from that room talking tosomebody else. I didn't tell him
a sob story. It was just like,hey, I really want to be on
contract. And he's like, Okay,let me go talk to Bob and figure
it out.
Yeah? I mean, I feel like I talkabout that all day, but I don't
want to waste, I'm not wasteyour time, but I know you're I
just, I just have a naturalcontrarian. I just,
(31:54):
yeah, I mean, like, I would wantyou would argue with him. Well,
it's not, it's not, it's notargument, right? Because, like,
these are just facts. Earth isround, water is wet. I can't I
can do this like, it's not anargument. Like, this is just
what it is. But there's alsothat aspect of, I
feel like the reason why we'rehaving issues that we are having
now was because people aren'ttold that they're wrong, and
(32:17):
it's because of their power, andbecause of that individuals
rightfully so have, like, afear, but not telling people
that they're wrong. And then theaspect of like, you have people
who will go around and be like,they'll advocate for you, but
some people aren't going to dothat. So the person is never
going to be told that they'rewrong. They're going to keep
doing wrong things. Their levelof power is going to create,
like, a great silo for that. Andit's because, well, nobody likes
(32:40):
being told they're wrong. Well,work on yourself and stop being
wrong. I just I don't, I knownobody likes it, but I think
there's a way to, I know the waythat you're talking about doing
it, but I would want to do it inthe room,
because I think what you'retalking about is the epitome of
like, well, we're not talkingabout like.
You got to know who calling inversus calling out. Yeah, you
(33:02):
may feel like I have arelationship with this leader
that allows me to say,
I mean, you know, context, look,yeah, I mean, you know, if you
have that relationship, then gofor it. You know, if you don't,
then you can retreat and say,I'm gonna get my ally to to do
(33:26):
this for me. But I mean,
I know just from personalexperience, when someone says
you're wrong, I get defensive.If somebody says,
Let me show you another way tolook at it, I'm like, oh, okay,
tell me. And like, Well, I wouldlook at it this way. And it's
like, Oh, you didn't say I waswrong. You allowed me to feel
(33:51):
good about what I believe, butyou also showed me a new way.
Like, okay, all right, I feelvalidated. And at the same time
pointed to a new way of seeingthings. But you know, when
you're with that's talking aboutideas, if you're talking about
yourself, it's just maybetrickier. Yeah. I mean, this is
(34:13):
not a this is not necessarilythe tactic you have to use in
every situation. No, you askedme about that idea of arguing
outside the room, yeah, and I'lljust end up this one, because I
think that this is somethingthat I would really like to hear
more from you about. What do youfeel like now? I mean, you wrote
this book. When did you writethis book?
(34:36):
2010 I think 2010 2012
so at least a decade ago, 2010because they were like, You
better hurry up and finish this,because we don't know if Obama
will be reelected, then we'renot publishing this. We're not
publishing this. But it was likethis. You have to get this done
before Obama is running again.Well, something you talk about a
(34:57):
lot is being rooted in, but notrestricted by.
Race, what do you think thatlooks like? Now,
I mean, look, I don't think that
looks much different. Now, thereare things that I would do
differently if I started writingthis book. Now, okay, maybe
(35:19):
that's the question. That's thequestion, what would you do
differently? I mean, I do a lotof things differently, you know.
I mean, I don't want to do awhole critique of the book, but
I mean, I mean, you know, BLMhad not happened. You know,
that's a whole deeperconversation. I
think the notion of unapologeticblackness doesn't really come
(35:40):
into this discussion, becausethat's not where I was going. I
was going toward. Let's talkabout fluidity, but unapologetic
blackness is really important,and it feels good, and it is
self affirming, and I think it'sa great sort of example for
others around us. You know, Imean, I would have to include
more of an economicconversation, because it's very
(36:02):
spiritual. And somebody is like,this is for middle class people.
And like,
Yeah. Somebody like, yeah. Imean, yeah, kind of there's not
an economic component to it. Andyou know, the rash of deaths,
the Thrash of famous deaths thathappened after publication, that
(36:22):
alone would lead me to talkingabout this entirely differently.
You mentioned because just fulldisclosure private I was in
private school for a coupleyears. I'm from Philly. My mom
was working like a bunch of jobsto put me through private
school. It was one of the worstexperiences of my life. The only
reason why I didn't tell her isbecause I knew she was working
hard to send me through privateschool. But you mentioned
private school a lot as one ofthe reasons why you're able, you
were able to kind of get in thateducation and to understand how
(36:44):
to engage community, like incommunication. And you also
mentioned the fact that youdon't feel like you're masking.
You understand that it's codeswitching and it's changing your
language, right? What do youthink contributes to because I
have to expect that, like,you've been around people who
probably have felt the need tomask, or you've seen them doing
(37:05):
that, and what do you thinkcontributes to your experience
being so different in terms ofnot having to do that,
versus the possibility, and thisis, of course, opining, but
like, the possibility of otherindividuals not feeling
comfortable doing that, and it'snot solely about language for
them, because you're very openabout like, No, I don't have to
do that. But that's not, youknow, like, what there's I can't
speak to others experience inthat way. I know that,
(37:31):
you know, in high school andbefore I learned how to function
in these all white rooms, right?
At times. That was a painfulexperience, but I learned how to
do it. I also learned that thewhite man's ice is not any
(37:52):
colder. They don't know anythingthat we don't know. They're not
inherently smarter. So itwasn't, I mean, and I was
educated around some reallybrilliant kids, but overall,
like, white people are notsmarter than us, like they don't
have some inherent advantageintellectually or mentally over
(38:12):
us, like they have moreconnections. But like, yeah,
that's what it is, you know. SoI was, I came out of being
around a ton of white people,mostly in high school, also in
college and graduate school, butmostly the high school
experience is more formative oflike, not being all that
impressed with them in general,like they're fine, but they
(38:36):
like,
they ain't smarter than me. Theydon't know something I don't
know. Yeah, so, you know, I feltconfident to go to war with
them. As far as I'm trying tomake it in media, you're trying
to make it in media too. Like,okay, let's see what happens,
you know, and I feel confidentof my skills. Like, I remember
(39:00):
the first time the first thingwe wrote in graduate school. I
went to graduate school forcreative writing Columbia, the
first thing that we wrote, weread them in class. And then
afterward, we came outside andthere was like a circle of like
six, five or six, probably sixpeople who were, like, among the
(39:23):
best in the class, just sort oftalking.
And I never forget, somebodyturned to somebody else and
said, How long did you spend onyour essay? Because, like, write
a 500 word essay, how long didyou spend on your essay? And
then they said, how long theyspent. And then they asked
somebody else. And there waskind of like chatter, kind of
(39:44):
like this group conversationhappening, but there's also
chatter. And then the thirdperson, she turned to me and
said, How long did you spend?And the way she said it, I
realized that whole line ofquestioning was to get to asking
how long I spent, because shewas like, because clearly and
when.
He asked me they all stoppedtalking because they were like,
We want to know how long hespent, which that moment alone
(40:07):
told me they all thought, Oh,his was the best. So, like, how
long does it take to be the bestin the room? And I don't I mean,
the amount of time I spentrelative to them is not
important. The point was that Isaw right away that they all
were like, holy shit, he's thebest one in that group. And
there was nothing,
(40:29):
nothing that had ever occurredto me that I wouldn't be
because, like, I've been aroundyou guys my whole life. I know I
can fucking like, now you knowwhen it was science and math.
Also, I'm like, I hate scienceand math.
I just hate those fuckingsubjects in literature. I'm
crushing y'all. So then we getto graduate school and we're
(40:50):
just doing writing. Oh, forgetit. I can beat y'all at this. So
do you think it's because you,instead of being in the silos of
just solely being around peoplethat look like you, you were
able to actually have thatexperience, to know that the ice
isn't colder.
That was very helpful to me. Tome, I also understand the self
(41:11):
esteem that can be nurtured in avery black experience. Yeah, you
know, I remember the first timeI went to the AUC and was on the
yard around Spelman andMorehouse kids, and was like
their level of self esteem isclearly different than ours. I
mean, they are emanating adifferent light, and they are
(41:35):
very deeply comfortable withthemselves in ways that we over
at Emory are not like this is soI saw that firsthand, and that's
just from being on the yard. I'mnot right. I mean, if I went
into the experience completely,it's like, amazing.
So there that is a very valuableexperience. My experience pwis
(41:58):
learning their ice is notcolder. They are not any smarter
than us. There's no reason why Ican't defeat them in any
intellectual game.
That was very helpful to me.
Okay, I like that. And I mean,it's what gravitated it's what
caught my attention when it cameto the book in the first place,
your story about why you decidedyou know, to start off with the
(42:20):
book, because that was theexperience of the party and on,
on, on campus. And that's,that's like, I saw the video,
and I was like, Oh, thatfreaking sucks.
Honestly, and honestly, even asa psychologist, I'm And it very
much. I get it's, I'm veryPhilly. I automatically go to,
like, anger, which, you know, DrMartin has a psychologist as
(42:43):
well, but like, I was just likethat just pissed me off. That
just really just pissed me,like, what the
ratify? Because, yeah, it wasmortifying and hurtful. But to
think deeply about it and have avery thoughtful response. And
(43:04):
to, even now,
to tell that story, and have somany people be like, you know,
bravo. Good for you, you know. Imean, I have people, black
people who, if I looked at them,I would not think that they
would that story would resonatefor them, and they're like, that
was great. I mean, your storywent viral, like on campus,
(43:25):
right? Like everybody wasreading your I mean, oh, I mean,
now, but yes, then, yes, it wasviral. We didn't use that word
then, but
that community, yeah, but thenthis now, telling it now. And
all these people were like, Ihad a similar experience. I had
a similar experience. Somebodysaid I wasn't I was really
(43:46):
powerful.
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