August 6, 2024 • 35 mins
Dr. Thema and Dr. Raquel Martin discuss various topics including love, travel, and liberation psychology. They touch on the importance of context and the impact of systems of oppression on marginalized communities. They also highlight the need for mental health professionals to consider the soul and spiritual aspects of their clients. Dr. Thema explains that liberation psychology is about healing wounds, reimagining possibilities, and promoting post-traumatic growth. Dr. Raquel Martin shares her experience of wanting to focus on helping the Black community in her training and the pushback she received. In this conversation, Dr. Thema and Dr. Raquel Martin discuss the importance of integrating liberation psychology into therapy and mental health practices. They emphasize the need for therapists to be culturally competent and aware of the diverse experiences within the Black community. They also highlight the significance of authenticity and genuine connection in therapy, as well as the importance of honoring and validating clients' experiences of discrimination. Dr. Thema provides resources for further learning and encourages therapists to incorporate liberation psychology into their training and practice.
Takeaways
- Liberation psychology is a holistic approach that considers the soul and spiritual aspects of individuals, going beyond just thoughts, feelings, and behaviors.
- Context matters in mental health, including the impact of systems of oppression on marginalized communities.
- Liberation psychology aims to heal wounds, challenge internalized oppression, and reimagine possibilities for individuals, families, and communities.
- Mental health professionals should consider the unique experiences and needs of marginalized communities, such as the Black community, and provide culturally sensitive care.
- Post-traumatic growth and positive psychology are important aspects of liberati
Bio
Dr. Thema Bryant is a highly esteemed psychologist renowned for their leadership as the president of the American Psychological Association in 2023. They bring a wealth of expertise as a tenured professor of psychology at Pepperdine University, where their teaching and research intertwine psychology, theology, and the arts. Dr. Bryant's approach is deeply rooted in empowering individuals to navigate and transcend profound life challenges, particularly traumatic experiences.
They are dedicated to recognizing and amplifying the inherent strengths of individuals within diverse cultural contexts, specializing in trauma recovery among ethnically marginalized groups, women, and individuals of faith. Dr. Bryant's influential work extends beyond academia, advocating for holistic healing and resilience through their profound understanding of psychological, spiritual, and cultural dimensions. You can find Dr. Bryant on Instagram and her website.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
Steve, Hello everyone, and welcome to Mind your mental
just a reminder that thispodcast is not meant to be a
substitute for a relationshipwith a licensed mental health
professional. I know they arehard to find, and I get that I
have a bunch of resources on mywebsite if you need them, but I
am not your clinician. I am apsychologist, but I am not your
(00:21):
psychologist. So if you need anyspecific help, please look for
the help of a licensed mentalhealth professional. Learn all
you can learn from the podcast.Enjoy the episode. All right,
everyone. Welcome to mind yourmental podcast today. We have
one of my faves out here inthese psychological streets. We
have Dr Tama Bryant. She's the2023 president of the American
(00:42):
Psychological Association, whichis the leading scientific and
professional organizationrepresenting psychology with
more than 120,000
members. And I will say thatwhen I went to the APA
conference, the one I went towas when, you know, when you
were presiding, and I've been toones previously, and I was like,
Yo, this one has way morelowries on it. There was just so
(01:02):
much. There was just so muchmore seasoning on it. I just
enjoyed myself. And I saw somenewer students, and they were
like, Oh, this is our firstyear. And I said, I'm sorry,
this is your first year, becauseyour expectations this is higher
than I'm be real with you. Thisis actually way cooler than it
typically is. So like, I waslike, I literally said, like,
this is a tough one to make yourfirst one. Y'all,
(01:26):
it's like,
I've seen the bar, so I thinkyou raised the bar a little bit
too much on that some people mayyou know.
Thank you. I had a good oldtime. Me. Earl was sitting there
dancing. Listen, Dr ErlangerTurner, my bad. Dr Bryant has
it's so many different aspectsof expertise. In addition to
(01:49):
being a psychologist, she hasalso earned her master's of
divinity, and is an ordainedelder in the African Methodist
Episcopal Church. You know, Iactually, I grew up in an
Episcopal AME Church. My I'mfrom Philly, and my mom is
Baptist, but my god mom, she herchurch is at AME Church. I grew
up hearing about Richard Allen,yes. Alright, yeah.
(02:13):
So when I go to churches, I'mlike, you know, it's hard
because, like, I grew up in,like, real, real, more, like,
older school, and even my churchwas embedded and like, Hey
everyone, just a reminder thatmind, your mental is not just a
podcast. It is also a amazingcommunity. If I do say so
myself, it's phenomenal. I mean,you get more access to me. What
(02:34):
more could you want in thislife? So if you want to join the
community, if you're not alreadyon the community. Go to my
social media. My social media isthe same Raquel Martin, PhD, and
DM me the word community, so youcan get details on joining this
amazing, flipping community. Youget more access to me. Y'all
like,
(02:54):
I'm a delight. All right. Allright. Hope to see you there
individuals of African descent.So it was when I moved I was
like, this, don't feel like howit felt when I was younger.
Like, I'm used to good choirs.I'm also used to like everyone
being significantly older thanme. So I actually felt odd when
there was, like, a lot of peoplemy age at a church, because an
(03:15):
AME Church, like everyone's was,I'm just used to seniors,
seniors, yes, hymnals, right? SoI was like, I one time I went, I
was looking for a church, and Iwas like, I saw, I couldn't see
a choir, but I saw, like aguitar. And I was like,
what do we do? I need to seesome robes and an organ.
(03:35):
Like, what I need at least fourchoirs with men. Like, I said,
like, I said, like, yes, yeah. Isaid, Oh, my acoustic guitar.
But you know, listen, when itcomes to certain things I like,
(03:55):
what I like, you
know, after church, I need to besmelling chicken.
Yeah. That
pound cake. Yes, like, I need,you know, I need all of it. I
need to ask the lady next to mefor a mint. Like, she needs to
have candy in her purse thatI've it's her whole experience
stores. Yes, little girls withthose white socks and itchy
(04:18):
hands, like, that's adorable.
Now we have arrived. Now we havearrived. One of the reasons why
I wanted to have you on theshow, because you have so many
realms of expertise. And I wasintroduced to you, I was saying
earlier, I wish it was earlier,but when I was out of my
training, it was towards thetail end, and I was looking more
about, I think I looked up likemental health and social justice
(04:41):
and liberation psychology comesup, and honestly, you always
come up in that aspect of it. SoI thought today's episode would
be fantastic, not only forcurrent clinicians and
clinicians in training, but alsopeople who are looking for a
therapist or a licensed mentalhealth professional or something
where they feel like they canrelate.
Because I very much saw myselfin liberation psychology like I
(05:04):
felt like the only reason why Ifeel like I decided to be a
psychologist was because I wentto Fisk. I always say that if my
first Psych class wasn't at aHBCU, I don't think I would have
wanted to be a psychologist.Like it was one of the few
classes psychology and blackhistory were one of the few
classes that didn't bore me totears because I saw myself in
the curriculum, like myprofessor was talking about
(05:25):
jawanza canjufu And, you know,was talking about Kenneth and
Mamie Phipps Clark and all ofthat. And I had never known that
people that looked like us, orpeople focusing on historically
excluded populations, could alsodo that through science and like
mental health and therapy. So Ivery much saw myself in that. So
I was like, you know who wouldbe great to talk about this, the
(05:46):
person who I've always admiredfrom afar and now up close when
it comes to liberationpsychology. So how would you
describe liberation psychologyto someone who has never heard
of the concept? And you're like,Hey, I'm gonna put you on game.
Yes, it sounds like this issomething for you. Yes,
absolutely. So the first thing Iwould say is liberation
(06:08):
psychology comes out ofliberation theology, and so it's
great that we started offtalking about the church,
because at its roots, it'sholistic. Whatever someone's
religious or spiritualconvictions are that we don't
leave the soul work out of thetherapy process, and psychology
means study of the soul. So itis not limited to cognitions. It
(06:31):
is not just about our feelings,it is not just about our
behaviors. It is about you as aliving soul. What is the aspect
of you or the part of yourclient that remains, even after
the stress and trauma and dramaof life, and like speaking to
that aspect of the person,liberation psychology is a
(06:53):
commitment to attend to context,that context matters. It is not
just about positive thinking, itis not just that you have
distorted thoughts and we don'tknow where those thoughts came
from, but that we grow up insystems and interlocking systems
of oppression that teach us toreject ourselves, to hide
(07:15):
ourselves, to doubt ourselves,And that create and maintain a
hierarchy of power, andmarginalized people are at the
lower end. And it's not becausethey're just at risk or that
they have deficits or that theyneed to be rescued. It is as a
result of these systems. And soone of the critiques that comes
(07:37):
from liberation psychologists tomany other models is the
tendency to ignore context,including oppression. But
another part of liberationpsychology is a commitment to
not only eradicating or pushingback on oppression and healing
the wounds they have within us,which includes internalized
(07:59):
oppression when we come tobelieve the lies we've been told
about ourselves. But liberationis also about reimagining what
is possible. So in other ways,we might hear about that as post
traumatic growth. We might hearabout that as positive
psychology, but at its core thatour work is not just about
(08:20):
symptom cessation. So if I'mjust trying to decrease your
symptoms of depression, anxiety,I still have not spoken to joy,
to purpose, to love, to thefullness, the abundance of life.
So it invites the therapist andthe mental health professional
to imagine, what can thisindividual, family community
(08:44):
look like, free? What would itlook like for you to live with
freedom?
And I really appreciate that,because I feel like when I was
in my training, that wassomething that I felt was
missing, like I knew I wanted toget into psychology and mental
health to help the blackcommunity. I was very open, and
got very much a lot of pushbackabout saying that, like you talk
(09:05):
about specialties and people candiscuss like personality
disorders and anxiety. Peopletalk about focusing on children
and adolescents and families.And through my whole entire
program, anytime anyone asks me,I said, I'm focusing on I want
to focus on black people. Yes,that's what I want to focus on.
Yes. And I got asked thingslike, well, don't you think
that's pretty limiting? I don'tthink that's an option. And I'm
(09:27):
like, I've always just like,well, we always say that our
mental health is linked to theway the world treats us.
Do black people not get treateddifferently than anyone else?
Can we not identify that there'sa difference between anxiety as
a result of attachment issuesversus anxiety as a result of
racism related stress. Don't youthink we could benefit from
people who understand theintricacies of the the whole
(09:49):
experience? And I got so muchpushback, and I was always just
like, Y'all looking at me like Ilost my mind. I'm looking at
y'all same way, because I feellike I'm making perfect sense.
And what it is, you know whatyou and I'm.
So glad you're giving thisexample is people are so used to
minoritized people remaining inthe margins, so we are an
afterthought, right? Even intherapy. Is this is the model.
(10:12):
And then if you want to modifyit for this group, I remember
when I was in training, we werelearning this CBT group for boys
who, you know, kept getting intoconflict and trouble in school,
and their idea of modifying thisintervention for black kids was
the affirmation statements, thestatements you're supposed to
(10:33):
say to yourself to avoid gettingin trouble. They made them all
rhyme, so then they would haveto say, like, I won't be a fool.
I won't lose my cool
now, now it's culturallycongruent. I'm like, What in the
world? Yeah. Or our NativeAmerican siblings have said, you
know, they use the sameintervention, and say, hold the
(10:54):
feather. And now it's for us,right? So instead, as you're
naming, you know what it meansto to center us that in the very
creation of the model we are whoyou have in mind, and that's
going to be a very differentfeeling. I think so too. When I
was doing I'll never forget mydissertation defense on one of
my committee meetings, and minewas on Minority Mental health
(11:17):
disparities within children ofindividuals in the military
diagnostic disparities. And whenwe were viewing the data, one of
my committee members mentionedshe asked, she it wasn't even,
you know, sometimes people raisetheir hand like it's a question,
but it's really like, oh, I havea statement. I don't know that
right now, right? I just need toknow if I how much longer I have
(11:37):
before I can graduate. Y'all. Ineed y'all to answer me that
like, that's all I'm asking.Yes. She said, I noticed that
you didn't go in as much detail.And the data, when it came to
she said White, but I saidEuropean American data. She
said, is, I think you she said,I think you could have gotten
more salient information. Like,what was the reason for that?
And I said, they were not mypopulation of interest.
(12:01):
Yes. And I think, you know,
you know, like, and sometimes Ithink they're like, expecting
you to fill the air. And I wasjust like, sit with it. Yeah,
more questions.
And I feel like, when it comesto modalities and therapy, and
just like you mentioned, I thinkpeople will state that like, oh,
(12:22):
it's altered or whateveradjusted for certain cultures
because we made the charactershave afros on them
with not even thinking of like,well, no, there's a difference
in the way that in things areprocessed, because, once again,
it's inextricably linked to theway the world has treated us.
And you know, I get askedquestions about when's old
enough to discuss about racismor stuff like that. And I'm
(12:43):
like, Well, I my son literallyexperienced racism in utero. So
I'm gonna be honest with you,think about as early as someone
can experience it, that'sprobably as early as you can
discuss it. And we can't actlike we're grown up in a bubble,
like it's our mental health,it's our well being, just like
you mentioned is the study ofthe soul, and I think there
aren't enough people, or thereweren't. There's so many amazing
(13:06):
models now where they're justlike, it's not meant to be a
comparison, right? Like, my goalis not to look at black people
in comparison to anyone. My goalis to look solely within the
diversity of the blackexperience. And I think there's
so many individuals who feel asthough, and I think that's one
of the biggest stressors withblack people, is like we having
(13:28):
this expectation to be in thisone box where there should be
more agency and there should bemore talk about the diversity
within the black experience.Like saying that I focus on
individuals of African descent,I said. And honestly, I'm like,
that's not even enough of aspecialty. Because when I tell
you, you know, like, that's therange, that's a lot, that's a
(13:50):
huge range, yes, and the pieceof the intersectionality, and
often, this belief that raceovershadows or erases or makes,
you know, everything elseidentical, but attention to
gender and sexuality anddisability and migration status,
like all of those things, affecthow the world sees us and treats
(14:13):
us. You know, even the termgendered racism, you know, how
do people treat black men versusblack women? What are the
assumptions when they see us.And so I think people often want
a quick fix, especially in like,training programs, right? And so
the phrase is like, well,depression is depression? Well,
actually, it's not right?Depression shows up very
(14:35):
differently depending on yourculture and your context. And so
I think people take it as ahardship or like that. It's
overwhelming that there are somany different groups and
peoples, but it's actually likea gift to be able to bear
witness, to learn about, youknow, different people's
(14:55):
community, and then that thelens they have, like, what does
this mean to them?
Even the fact that they showedup in my office. You know, what
does it mean, given theirreligion, given their race,
given their age, and how thataffects the healing process?
Yeah, I think there's power inthe aspect of specialty, because
there are places that affirm meas a black person, and maybe not
(15:17):
as a black woman, as a blackwoman, and maybe not as a black
mother, as a black mother, andmaybe not someone who has, you
know, as someone who iseducated, I have a significant
aspect of privilege, like, Iknow where I'm going to sleep
every single night. I havehealth insurance cards, as long
as I'm not, you know, going outto buy a couch, I can swipe my
card and be okay. You know,these days, grocery store visits
(15:40):
are even getting concerned.Like, yeah, children eat way too
much fresh fruit is concerning.But like, you know, like, I just
understanding that, like,there's so much power in that
intersection of identity. Andeven when you mentioned, like,
the gendered aspect of it, I tryto focus more on my work and
research on black identitydevelopment. And I remember
someone asking, like, oh, well,can we do a model where it's
(16:02):
just like we're looking at boysand girls in the same place? And
I said actually, it's actuallymore helpful to look at the
gendered aspect, because thereare certain messages that young
boys get that young girls do notget. You know, when we talk
about the reasons why depressionand everything like that
manifests differently, peopledon't always know that there are
differences in cultural displayrules, like if you have an
entire group of individuals whohave never been told or shown
(16:26):
that it's okay to expressthemselves, that have been
overtly or covertly told thattheir feelings do not matter,
they're not allowed to have themthere if they can't even
acknowledge emotions, let alonethe range of emotions. There's a
difference between being sad anddepression, hungry and famished
and happy and ecstatic. And youif you have a people who are so
used to blunting how they feel,masking that and they can't even
(16:47):
address it to themselves,imagine how hard it is to be
across across from someone insession and appropriately assess
them if you don't know that.Like, if you think, Oh, they
seem angry. There must be angerif you don't know stuff. Like,
Oh, well, let's think about theanger iceberg, right? The
Titanic sank because what wasbelow the border, did it not?
Yes, right? So, like, you'reseeing anger, okay, that's the
(17:09):
easy one to see. Are we alsoseeing shame and guilt and
sadness? Like, if you, I wastalking to my students about
this recently, and they wereasking me, students always have,
like, the most they have, like,the simplest questions that I'm
like, where I too and try andanswer this. But they were like,
what's the she's why? What's theissue? Like, why? Why can't they
just why? Why are we gettingdiagnosed wrong? And I was like,
(17:30):
Okay, well, let me do somethingI know y'all hate. Let me ask,
answer your question with aquestion. They're like, Oh my
God, just
answer the question. Do youthink you can assess someone
that you don't see, right? Like,do you think you can assess
people you don't see and they'relike, No, I'm like, okay, so
that gets to the colorblindperspective, right? Do you think
you can appropriately assesssomeone that you're afraid of
(17:51):
and they're like, Well, no, I'mlike, Well, you know, a lot of
people genuinely just fear blackskin. Do you think that you can
assess someone that you haven'ttaken the time to learn about
their individual experience.Like, could you own could do you
think you can appropriatelyassess men if you've only ever
worked with women? And they'relike, No, I'm like, Would it
surprise you to know I'm atHBCU? I was like, there are
(18:11):
people who don't have asignificant amount of experience
outside of media, which hasstereotypes outside of books, if
they see them with black people.I was like, Y'all, I know we in
Nashville and we're at HBCU, butI'll be honest with you guys,
not everyone is going to seeblack people, let alone in
(18:31):
person, let alone haveconversations with them, and
they can still become licensedand work with this population.
How hard would it be to do anappropriate assessment of a man.
If you've never worked with aman in your life, and you're
like, I've only had womenparticipants. But this is, I'm
sure it's similar. I'm sure thisvibe. I'm sure this is cool.
This is cool.
Just show me where the ovariesare and be like, what? Because
(18:53):
that's literally how. Because,in my opinion, that's how bad it
is. Like, Man, this person seemsso hyper vigilant, like, Oh my
God, oh, what the heck theirproblem is? Yeah, they're black.
Vigilance,
yes, yeah, vigilance forsurvival. Because I've said
oftentimes it's a privilege tonot have to read the room, in my
opinion. Yeah, there's, I don'tknow, many black people don't
(19:14):
scan the room to see safety.Yeah. I was talking to one of
one of the trainees, and she waslike, it's hard to understand.
And I was like, okay, so you'rea woman,
do you not scan the room ifyou're in a room full of men?
She was like, yeah. I was like,the hyper vigilance that that
most a lot of women feel whenthey're the only woman. I was
like, think about that. Butthink about that with the world.
(19:37):
Like, imagine if you were onlyin rooms where you're like, one
of the few women there,
imagine if you were only inrooms, whether you're going to
work, school, home, how wouldyou feel? And she's like, Oh,
I'd be stressed out, yeah, andit's awful. That's like, you
know, the thought process.Because a lot of women can
relate to that. A lot of womencan relate to holding their keys
in their hand. A lot of womencan relate to.
(20:00):
Oh, I'm not parking on thebottom floor. I'm not gonna be
able to go to this place,because I can't do that. A lot
of women can relate to it'sdark. I'm not. I'm have to spend
the night at your house, girl,because I'm not. I can't walk
home. That's what a lot of blackpeople feel like, hyper
vigilance. I get uncomfortablearound police all the time, and
I'm a stand up citizen, like, Imay be a little radical, but I'm
(20:20):
a stand up citizen, and everytime I'm like, imagine feeling
that all of the time, and thengoing to therapy for months,
even years, and never beinginvited to talk about it. You
know, it's like, you don't evenknow this client. You don't even
know them. Whatever you all havebeen working on has been a
fraction a glimpse of who thisperson is. So a part of
(20:42):
liberation also is to see peoplewholly and completely, and also
to know, along with culturaloppression, there's also just
the gift of culture. Along withrace, there's also there's not
just racism, but it is like thegift is when people say, we not
only have ancestral wounds, butancestral wisdom. So liberation
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doesn't mean that now everysession has to be about the
trauma and terroristshistorically and in the present,
that in the liberation there'salso, you know, what is the
wisdom that either directly orindirectly, you got from your
community about how to navigatethese spaces, even if you're the
first one on the college campus,they showed you some things
(21:26):
about how to preserve yourself,protect yourself, nourish
yourself and and if you know hadinterracial adoption or your
parents just never talked aboutit, that it's not too late to
learn so some people learn Thesestrategies growing up with like,
racial and gender socialization,and some people's families
thought that the silence was toprotect them, right, that if I
(21:49):
don't talk about it right, thenthey will just feel confident,
and then they can just goconquer the world. And so that
being unprepared often thenleads to more of the blame and
shame of like, I must be doingsomething wrong, because if it's
a meritocracy, you get rewardedby how hard you work, and I keep
hitting that glass ceiling,then, like, what's wrong with me
(22:13):
versus this system is operatingin the way it was designed, and
it was designed to keep you outand you are still worthy. That's
one of the reasons why I try tofocus on you hear so much about
breaking generational curses,and I'm always like, or, how
about we talk about buildinggenerational bonds? I don't
know. I got language a littlebit later. Can we focus on that
language? How would that look insession? Like, how would you
(22:34):
like say someone's looking for aclinician? And you know, they're
not, you know how you stateclinical psychologist or
clinical social worker, andthey're not outright stating
that, like, oh, I also identifyas liberation psychologist. How
would that look in session?Like, what are some signs you'd
be like, Okay, I think thisperson is actually leading in
the aspect of liberation like,what, what would that look like
(22:55):
in session? Right? So, you know,a question that is you can
commonly ask is, you know, alongwith whatever this presenting
problem is, my relationshipproblems, my financial stress,
panic attacks, you know, a bigpart of my identity is my race,
is my gender, is my sexuality?What is your experience with
(23:18):
working with people with my sameidentity, and what are your
thoughts about howdiscrimination could be
affecting my mental health? Likethat's an easy question. So if
they're stumbling, if they say,I see people as people, I'm out.
This is a part of my identity.
(23:39):
You know, if they tell you theyused to date a black person, I'm
out that's not what I asked.
So they should have a comfortwith being able, and it
shouldn't be like a surprise orstartling that you're wondering
their ability and also theirmindset, right? You know, if
(24:00):
anything, I'm so glad you askedthat question. I think it's
fundamental. And here are theways that I approach it or look
at it. And then if you don'tfeel comfortable like initiating
that exchange, and do know, whenyou go to therapy, they're
seeing if they're a match foryou, but you also are seeing if
this person is a match. But youknow, so we have, in the
(24:20):
beginning, it's usually what'scalled an intake session. So we
ask you questions about all thethings psychologists have
decided are important, becausewe want to get an idea of you.
Once we have an idea of you,then we're going to come up with
the treatment goals together ofwhat are we working on? So
they're going to ask you aboutyour work history, they're going
to ask you about yourrelationship history. They'll
(24:42):
ask you about your health, aboutsubstance use, if they ask you a
bunch of questions and don't askyou anything about your various
identities or about bullying orstereotype or oppression,
they're not tuned in. They'renot so that.
Would be a warning and you andnow they might be following the
(25:04):
clinic form, and maybe they haveother consciousness, and it's
not reflected in the form. Andthen I could just say, when you
a lot of times, they'll askabout trauma history. So you
know, you asked about the stressand trauma in my life. Is this a
good time for me to tell youabout how racism has affected
me, and even with that, you'rehaving to work too hard, in my
(25:24):
opinion, because they should becreating the environment. But if
you want to give it a try,because I have had people who
say I like them for everythingelse, but I think I'm going to
have to go to somebody else toaddress the racism, right? And
so, you know, if it feels like agood connection, this is someone
I feel like I can relate to ingeneral, where they gave me some
(25:45):
helpful things about my eatingdisorder or a panic, you know,
then you can offer. I was hopingwe could address this and see
what they do with that.
Yes, see, this is why I love DrTaylor. So once again, I always
say like, you know I loved youbefore I met you. But because I
have a finding a therapist,guide, and I have, like, the
(26:06):
typical questions, like, Okay,let's get to this money. How
much we charge you do with lifescale? But I also have a section
it's like, hey, so someimportant aspects of my
identity, or this and this, doyou understand that? Do you Do
you grasp these topics? Have youworked with anyone with these
intersecting identities? And Ialways tell people, it's also as
important, it's important to seewhat they say, also what they
(26:27):
don't say, because you can tellwhen people are uncomfortable
discussing racism, or, you know,I'm okay with people not
understanding everything, I getto decide if that's okay, but
like, I don't like when peoplewhen you can tell somebody
doesn't know what they'retalking about, but they don't
feel comfortable. Like, now,comfortable acknowledging that.
That's odd to me, because it'slike, here's the thing, I'm not
gonna know everything, andyou're not gonna know
(26:47):
everything, but if you don'tfeel comfortable, as the
clinician in the room, admittingthat you don't know something,
yeah, because that's not beinggenuine to me, it's not and it
makes our radar go off of likethe vigilance of, as you said,
I'm scanning to see is thissafe? And let me say
authentically, authenticity issafe, right? If someone
(27:09):
authentically doesn't know, andthey know they don't know, then
okay, I can decide what I wantto do with that, right? But the
pretending, or the like pullingin stuff that does not matter
here, because it's the only wayyou can think you can relate to
me now, like now we're that'screating ruptures and problems.
(27:30):
It's one of the reasons why Isay I think people of the global
majority tend to have the bestBS meter, because when you are
forced to wear a mask all thetime, you can recognize when
someone else is wearing masks. Ithink that's why it's very good
for us to suss out authenticity,because it's just like, now, as
someone who literally has to dothis to survive, I too, can tell
that you don't know what you'retalking about, and I don't think
(27:52):
you're being genuine. So it'sgonna be a no. It's one of the
reasons why I'm like, I did thispost about like, yeah, I don't
like when certain people call megirl like it's infantilizing,
and sometimes I feel like youyou feel like you have to like
when they made it rhyme in thatexample, right? You Why can't
you just engage with me as ahuman, you know, on that aspect
of humanity, instead of beinglike, will we gotta make it
(28:15):
rhyme? Because you're not,right? Yeah, that's what they
like. They like the rhyming.They like the rhyme. And it's a
forced familiarity, right? Whenwe call each other girl, there's
a either a knowing of the otherin the immediate or ancestrally,
like we probably cousins, right,
(28:36):
collective identity, yes,
and so to not be of thecommunity and to spontaneously
say that at the first meeting,then it is an assumption of
connection that does not yetexist. Somebody said something.
It was a woman, she but this isalso like being on social media.
(28:58):
Some people have. They justreside outside their minds. And
sometimes they catch me on agood day and they said
something, sis, and I'm like,you don't insult my parents. I
do not know you. Okay. That'snot how I was reared. Okay.
You're not gonna insult my mom,because my mom raised me right,
okay? And she raised me and mymom, my parents raised their
sibling, all of us, right? Andto say, sis, feel like you
insulted my mom right now,
(29:21):
along the lines of this dynamic,it also raises that, you know,
the diversity within thecommunity. So it's like one
person can't give you a pass foreverybody else, but some people
may be cool with it. So I willsay, like on social media and
comments, many people havestarted calling me auntie. I'm
good with that. I think aboutour aunt Maxine, that's fine,
(29:43):
right? If I was in a mall likeso it's out of this context. I
feel like this, whatever IGrelationship that we are all
dwelling in. But if someone justwalked up to me on the street
and said it, then it would belike, what about me made you
think or associate?
Leave with your aunt, right?Your caretaker, right? Your
caretaker, because that's thebig thing, right? Like, the
(30:05):
aspect of I automatically go tothe mammy stereotype because I'm
like, yes, because I'm supposedto care for you, correct, right?
Yeah, it's gonna help. Okay,well, it is. Listen,
it's not for me, you know, like,I'm sure one day I'm gonna get
more but every single time onsocial media, I'll be like,
media, I like, listen, being apsychologist is what I do. It's
not who I am. Okay? Everyone cancatch these hands if you act
(30:28):
like you're right. Now, I aspeople are like, what about your
patience? You're not my patient,right? You didn't receive an
invoice, did you? You're not mypatient? Yeah, my caseload is
full. Oh, come on. And honoringthis person I appreciate is
leaning into the humanity. Ithink both psychologists and as
(30:48):
black women, they're going to bea tendency to dehumanize and so
like you, insist that theyencounter your humanity, right?
That's what you do in the wayyou show up. It's like, No,
you're gonna you're gonna bereminded regularly. This is a
human being you're interactingwith, which I think is
necessary, and unfortunately,radical.
(31:12):
I know radical. I love beingcalled Red, if I'm not gonna
lie, it's good. It's like, well,in order to be an agent of
change, you cannot stick withthe status quo. It's one of my
favorite one of my favoritethings, yeah, well, okay, I have
one more question, because wehave a lot of clinicians who are
out there, what would it looklike to if they're in their
training, or even if they'vegraduated and they're like, this
(31:34):
is something that reallyresonates with me. What would it
look like to try to work towardsintegrating more liberation in
their training, if they're inschool or in their continued
education, if they're out of itlike, what would it look like to
go this route? Yes. Sofortunately, the American
Psychological Associationpublished a book on Liberation
psychology, and so I wouldencourage you to get the book.
(31:57):
The beautiful part about the wayit's set up is it gives kind of
a general overview, but then ittalks about applying liberation
psychology to particularpopulations. So that's an
excellent resource on YouTube.There are a couple of like,
webinars I've been in and otherpeople have done, if you just
search liberation psychology,and you know, be too late for
(32:18):
you to get your little CE, butyou can still get the
information. And then I wouldjust say, as a practice, one of
the interventions istestimonials, which is, you
know, starting with mindfulnesspractice, getting people into
the body, but then inviting themto talk about experiences of
discrimination and how it feltto them, what the thoughts were
(32:40):
that came up, how they managedit, how they navigated it, to do
that heart listening. And theinteresting thing about the way
testimonials is presented, whenwe talk about disclosure of the
professional as you can alsoshare your experience you've had
with racism and how it affectedyou and how you deal with it. So
that's just one of the ways ofinviting it in from that
(33:02):
narrative therapy perspective.And I love that, because one of
the things that I reallygravitated towards was honoring
it's in research. I've alwaysliked qualitative better,
because I always tell mystudents, you can turn words
into numbers, but you can neverturn numbers into words. If you
did a survey and 70% of peoplein that survey, you found out
they were depressed. What wouldbe your next question? Why I
feel like
(33:23):
when it comes to the kind ofresearch that I'm interested in,
and especially the population ofinterest, I like being able to
honor the narratives, like honorthe voices that were so often
silenced. Like, I want to hearyou talk. I don't want to do the
survey, but I want you to tellme there is no right or wrong
answer. And I think also intherapy, a lot of times there
can be different perspectives,where it's just like you're not
supposed to share any aspect ofyourself or your experience. And
(33:45):
I never really gravitated withthat in the first place. So I
really appreciate that aspect ofit. Well, that's doctor. That's
the doctor. Tell everybody wherethey can find you. You have your
podcast.
So my podcast, well as yourbook, Homecoming, the book
that's already out is calledhomecoming, and the workbook for
(34:05):
Homecoming is coming out thisJune. I invite you to pre order
it. The name of it is reclaimyourself, and it's available
wherever books are sold,
perfect and social media, theinterwebs, yes, you can follow
me as Dr tama, and it's spelledas it appears on the screen, D,
R, T, H, E, M, a, on x andInstagram and threads and tick
(34:31):
tock, LinkedIn. But I'm not veryearly on LinkedIn, but yes, I
encourage you to fight. Followme. My website is Dr tama.com,
thank you so much, Doctor tama,we very much appreciate it. I'm
not on LinkedIn as much either.It's not as fun to me. I need,
like, a Yes, show me what you'rewhich stages you're on, but I
need to. I need a laugh too.Yes. Like, here are you? Like,
(34:55):
yeah, I need some. I'm just,like, there are no videos on
this platform. I'm just lookingat words.
That's what I wanted to read, abook,
videos. Well, I so appreciateyou. Appreciate your work. You
are such a gift. And so forth.The sacrifice of time, energy,
effort that you spend to educateus and to inspire us. On behalf
(35:18):
of the community here, national,global community, I want to say,
thank you. Thank you. Oh, mygoodness, I'm going to put that
be my ringtone. Thank you. Ilove it.
But thank you so much. Andeveryone, as always, remember to
be kind to yourself. Two stepsforward and one step back is
still one step forward. That isjust math. Y'all. Have a good
(35:39):
day, night, week, whateveryou're doing. And thank you so
much for listening to the show.Bye.
Steve, Hello everyone, and welcome to Mind your mental
just a reminder that thispodcast is not meant to be a
substitute for a relationshipwith a licensed mental health
professional. I know they arehard to find, and I get that I
have a bunch of resources on mywebsite if you need them, but I
am not your clinician. I am apsychologist, but I am not your
(00:21):
psychologist. So if you need anyspecific help, please look for
the help of a licensed mentalhealth professional. Learn all
you can learn from the podcast.Enjoy the episode. All right,
everyone. Welcome to mind yourmental podcast today. We have
one of my faves out here inthese psychological streets. We
have Dr Tama Bryant. She's the2023 president of the American
(00:42):
Psychological Association, whichis the leading scientific and
professional organizationrepresenting psychology with
more than 120,000
members. And I will say thatwhen I went to the APA
conference, the one I went towas when, you know, when you
were presiding, and I've been toones previously, and I was like,
Yo, this one has way morelowries on it. There was just so
(01:02):
much. There was just so muchmore seasoning on it. I just
enjoyed myself. And I saw somenewer students, and they were
like, Oh, this is our firstyear. And I said, I'm sorry,
this is your first year, becauseyour expectations this is higher
than I'm be real with you. Thisis actually way cooler than it
typically is. So like, I waslike, I literally said, like,
this is a tough one to make yourfirst one. Y'all,
(01:26):
it's like,
I've seen the bar, so I thinkyou raised the bar a little bit
too much on that some people mayyou know.
Thank you. I had a good oldtime. Me. Earl was sitting there
dancing. Listen, Dr ErlangerTurner, my bad. Dr Bryant has
it's so many different aspectsof expertise. In addition to
(01:49):
being a psychologist, she hasalso earned her master's of
divinity, and is an ordainedelder in the African Methodist
Episcopal Church. You know, Iactually, I grew up in an
Episcopal AME Church. My I'mfrom Philly, and my mom is
Baptist, but my god mom, she herchurch is at AME Church. I grew
up hearing about Richard Allen,yes. Alright, yeah.
(02:13):
So when I go to churches, I'mlike, you know, it's hard
because, like, I grew up in,like, real, real, more, like,
older school, and even my churchwas embedded and like, Hey
everyone, just a reminder thatmind, your mental is not just a
podcast. It is also a amazingcommunity. If I do say so
myself, it's phenomenal. I mean,you get more access to me. What
(02:34):
more could you want in thislife? So if you want to join the
community, if you're not alreadyon the community. Go to my
social media. My social media isthe same Raquel Martin, PhD, and
DM me the word community, so youcan get details on joining this
amazing, flipping community. Youget more access to me. Y'all
like,
(02:54):
I'm a delight. All right. Allright. Hope to see you there
individuals of African descent.So it was when I moved I was
like, this, don't feel like howit felt when I was younger.
Like, I'm used to good choirs.I'm also used to like everyone
being significantly older thanme. So I actually felt odd when
there was, like, a lot of peoplemy age at a church, because an
(03:15):
AME Church, like everyone's was,I'm just used to seniors,
seniors, yes, hymnals, right? SoI was like, I one time I went, I
was looking for a church, and Iwas like, I saw, I couldn't see
a choir, but I saw, like aguitar. And I was like,
what do we do? I need to seesome robes and an organ.
(03:35):
Like, what I need at least fourchoirs with men. Like, I said,
like, I said, like, yes, yeah. Isaid, Oh, my acoustic guitar.
But you know, listen, when itcomes to certain things I like,
(03:55):
what I like, you
know, after church, I need to besmelling chicken.
Yeah. That
pound cake. Yes, like, I need,you know, I need all of it. I
need to ask the lady next to mefor a mint. Like, she needs to
have candy in her purse thatI've it's her whole experience
stores. Yes, little girls withthose white socks and itchy
(04:18):
hands, like, that's adorable.
Now we have arrived. Now we havearrived. One of the reasons why
I wanted to have you on theshow, because you have so many
realms of expertise. And I wasintroduced to you, I was saying
earlier, I wish it was earlier,but when I was out of my
training, it was towards thetail end, and I was looking more
about, I think I looked up likemental health and social justice
(04:41):
and liberation psychology comesup, and honestly, you always
come up in that aspect of it. SoI thought today's episode would
be fantastic, not only forcurrent clinicians and
clinicians in training, but alsopeople who are looking for a
therapist or a licensed mentalhealth professional or something
where they feel like they canrelate.
Because I very much saw myselfin liberation psychology like I
(05:04):
felt like the only reason why Ifeel like I decided to be a
psychologist was because I wentto Fisk. I always say that if my
first Psych class wasn't at aHBCU, I don't think I would have
wanted to be a psychologist.Like it was one of the few
classes psychology and blackhistory were one of the few
classes that didn't bore me totears because I saw myself in
the curriculum, like myprofessor was talking about
(05:25):
jawanza canjufu And, you know,was talking about Kenneth and
Mamie Phipps Clark and all ofthat. And I had never known that
people that looked like us, orpeople focusing on historically
excluded populations, could alsodo that through science and like
mental health and therapy. So Ivery much saw myself in that. So
I was like, you know who wouldbe great to talk about this, the
(05:46):
person who I've always admiredfrom afar and now up close when
it comes to liberationpsychology. So how would you
describe liberation psychologyto someone who has never heard
of the concept? And you're like,Hey, I'm gonna put you on game.
Yes, it sounds like this issomething for you. Yes,
absolutely. So the first thing Iwould say is liberation
(06:08):
psychology comes out ofliberation theology, and so it's
great that we started offtalking about the church,
because at its roots, it'sholistic. Whatever someone's
religious or spiritualconvictions are that we don't
leave the soul work out of thetherapy process, and psychology
means study of the soul. So itis not limited to cognitions. It
(06:31):
is not just about our feelings,it is not just about our
behaviors. It is about you as aliving soul. What is the aspect
of you or the part of yourclient that remains, even after
the stress and trauma and dramaof life, and like speaking to
that aspect of the person,liberation psychology is a
(06:53):
commitment to attend to context,that context matters. It is not
just about positive thinking, itis not just that you have
distorted thoughts and we don'tknow where those thoughts came
from, but that we grow up insystems and interlocking systems
of oppression that teach us toreject ourselves, to hide
(07:15):
ourselves, to doubt ourselves,And that create and maintain a
hierarchy of power, andmarginalized people are at the
lower end. And it's not becausethey're just at risk or that
they have deficits or that theyneed to be rescued. It is as a
result of these systems. And soone of the critiques that comes
(07:37):
from liberation psychologists tomany other models is the
tendency to ignore context,including oppression. But
another part of liberationpsychology is a commitment to
not only eradicating or pushingback on oppression and healing
the wounds they have within us,which includes internalized
(07:59):
oppression when we come tobelieve the lies we've been told
about ourselves. But liberationis also about reimagining what
is possible. So in other ways,we might hear about that as post
traumatic growth. We might hearabout that as positive
psychology, but at its core thatour work is not just about
(08:20):
symptom cessation. So if I'mjust trying to decrease your
symptoms of depression, anxiety,I still have not spoken to joy,
to purpose, to love, to thefullness, the abundance of life.
So it invites the therapist andthe mental health professional
to imagine, what can thisindividual, family community
(08:44):
look like, free? What would itlook like for you to live with
freedom?
And I really appreciate that,because I feel like when I was
in my training, that wassomething that I felt was
missing, like I knew I wanted toget into psychology and mental
health to help the blackcommunity. I was very open, and
got very much a lot of pushbackabout saying that, like you talk
(09:05):
about specialties and people candiscuss like personality
disorders and anxiety. Peopletalk about focusing on children
and adolescents and families.And through my whole entire
program, anytime anyone asks me,I said, I'm focusing on I want
to focus on black people. Yes,that's what I want to focus on.
Yes. And I got asked thingslike, well, don't you think
that's pretty limiting? I don'tthink that's an option. And I'm
(09:27):
like, I've always just like,well, we always say that our
mental health is linked to theway the world treats us.
Do black people not get treateddifferently than anyone else?
Can we not identify that there'sa difference between anxiety as
a result of attachment issuesversus anxiety as a result of
racism related stress. Don't youthink we could benefit from
people who understand theintricacies of the the whole
(09:49):
experience? And I got so muchpushback, and I was always just
like, Y'all looking at me like Ilost my mind. I'm looking at
y'all same way, because I feellike I'm making perfect sense.
And what it is, you know whatyou and I'm.
So glad you're giving thisexample is people are so used to
minoritized people remaining inthe margins, so we are an
afterthought, right? Even intherapy. Is this is the model.
(10:12):
And then if you want to modifyit for this group, I remember
when I was in training, we werelearning this CBT group for boys
who, you know, kept getting intoconflict and trouble in school,
and their idea of modifying thisintervention for black kids was
the affirmation statements, thestatements you're supposed to
(10:33):
say to yourself to avoid gettingin trouble. They made them all
rhyme, so then they would haveto say, like, I won't be a fool.
I won't lose my cool
now, now it's culturallycongruent. I'm like, What in the
world? Yeah. Or our NativeAmerican siblings have said, you
know, they use the sameintervention, and say, hold the
(10:54):
feather. And now it's for us,right? So instead, as you're
naming, you know what it meansto to center us that in the very
creation of the model we are whoyou have in mind, and that's
going to be a very differentfeeling. I think so too. When I
was doing I'll never forget mydissertation defense on one of
my committee meetings, and minewas on Minority Mental health
(11:17):
disparities within children ofindividuals in the military
diagnostic disparities. And whenwe were viewing the data, one of
my committee members mentionedshe asked, she it wasn't even,
you know, sometimes people raisetheir hand like it's a question,
but it's really like, oh, I havea statement. I don't know that
right now, right? I just need toknow if I how much longer I have
(11:37):
before I can graduate. Y'all. Ineed y'all to answer me that
like, that's all I'm asking.Yes. She said, I noticed that
you didn't go in as much detail.And the data, when it came to
she said White, but I saidEuropean American data. She
said, is, I think you she said,I think you could have gotten
more salient information. Like,what was the reason for that?
And I said, they were not mypopulation of interest.
(12:01):
Yes. And I think, you know,
you know, like, and sometimes Ithink they're like, expecting
you to fill the air. And I wasjust like, sit with it. Yeah,
more questions.
And I feel like, when it comesto modalities and therapy, and
just like you mentioned, I thinkpeople will state that like, oh,
(12:22):
it's altered or whateveradjusted for certain cultures
because we made the charactershave afros on them
with not even thinking of like,well, no, there's a difference
in the way that in things areprocessed, because, once again,
it's inextricably linked to theway the world has treated us.
And you know, I get askedquestions about when's old
enough to discuss about racismor stuff like that. And I'm
(12:43):
like, Well, I my son literallyexperienced racism in utero. So
I'm gonna be honest with you,think about as early as someone
can experience it, that'sprobably as early as you can
discuss it. And we can't actlike we're grown up in a bubble,
like it's our mental health,it's our well being, just like
you mentioned is the study ofthe soul, and I think there
aren't enough people, or thereweren't. There's so many amazing
(13:06):
models now where they're justlike, it's not meant to be a
comparison, right? Like, my goalis not to look at black people
in comparison to anyone. My goalis to look solely within the
diversity of the blackexperience. And I think there's
so many individuals who feel asthough, and I think that's one
of the biggest stressors withblack people, is like we having
(13:28):
this expectation to be in thisone box where there should be
more agency and there should bemore talk about the diversity
within the black experience.Like saying that I focus on
individuals of African descent,I said. And honestly, I'm like,
that's not even enough of aspecialty. Because when I tell
you, you know, like, that's therange, that's a lot, that's a
(13:50):
huge range, yes, and the pieceof the intersectionality, and
often, this belief that raceovershadows or erases or makes,
you know, everything elseidentical, but attention to
gender and sexuality anddisability and migration status,
like all of those things, affecthow the world sees us and treats
(14:13):
us. You know, even the termgendered racism, you know, how
do people treat black men versusblack women? What are the
assumptions when they see us.And so I think people often want
a quick fix, especially in like,training programs, right? And so
the phrase is like, well,depression is depression? Well,
actually, it's not right?Depression shows up very
(14:35):
differently depending on yourculture and your context. And so
I think people take it as ahardship or like that. It's
overwhelming that there are somany different groups and
peoples, but it's actually likea gift to be able to bear
witness, to learn about, youknow, different people's
(14:55):
community, and then that thelens they have, like, what does
this mean to them?
Even the fact that they showedup in my office. You know, what
does it mean, given theirreligion, given their race,
given their age, and how thataffects the healing process?
Yeah, I think there's power inthe aspect of specialty, because
there are places that affirm meas a black person, and maybe not
(15:17):
as a black woman, as a blackwoman, and maybe not as a black
mother, as a black mother, andmaybe not someone who has, you
know, as someone who iseducated, I have a significant
aspect of privilege, like, Iknow where I'm going to sleep
every single night. I havehealth insurance cards, as long
as I'm not, you know, going outto buy a couch, I can swipe my
card and be okay. You know,these days, grocery store visits
(15:40):
are even getting concerned.Like, yeah, children eat way too
much fresh fruit is concerning.But like, you know, like, I just
understanding that, like,there's so much power in that
intersection of identity. Andeven when you mentioned, like,
the gendered aspect of it, I tryto focus more on my work and
research on black identitydevelopment. And I remember
someone asking, like, oh, well,can we do a model where it's
(16:02):
just like we're looking at boysand girls in the same place? And
I said actually, it's actuallymore helpful to look at the
gendered aspect, because thereare certain messages that young
boys get that young girls do notget. You know, when we talk
about the reasons why depressionand everything like that
manifests differently, peopledon't always know that there are
differences in cultural displayrules, like if you have an
entire group of individuals whohave never been told or shown
(16:26):
that it's okay to expressthemselves, that have been
overtly or covertly told thattheir feelings do not matter,
they're not allowed to have themthere if they can't even
acknowledge emotions, let alonethe range of emotions. There's a
difference between being sad anddepression, hungry and famished
and happy and ecstatic. And youif you have a people who are so
used to blunting how they feel,masking that and they can't even
(16:47):
address it to themselves,imagine how hard it is to be
across across from someone insession and appropriately assess
them if you don't know that.Like, if you think, Oh, they
seem angry. There must be angerif you don't know stuff. Like,
Oh, well, let's think about theanger iceberg, right? The
Titanic sank because what wasbelow the border, did it not?
Yes, right? So, like, you'reseeing anger, okay, that's the
(17:09):
easy one to see. Are we alsoseeing shame and guilt and
sadness? Like, if you, I wastalking to my students about
this recently, and they wereasking me, students always have,
like, the most they have, like,the simplest questions that I'm
like, where I too and try andanswer this. But they were like,
what's the she's why? What's theissue? Like, why? Why can't they
just why? Why are we gettingdiagnosed wrong? And I was like,
(17:30):
Okay, well, let me do somethingI know y'all hate. Let me ask,
answer your question with aquestion. They're like, Oh my
God, just
answer the question. Do youthink you can assess someone
that you don't see, right? Like,do you think you can assess
people you don't see and they'relike, No, I'm like, okay, so
that gets to the colorblindperspective, right? Do you think
you can appropriately assesssomeone that you're afraid of
(17:51):
and they're like, Well, no, I'mlike, Well, you know, a lot of
people genuinely just fear blackskin. Do you think that you can
assess someone that you haven'ttaken the time to learn about
their individual experience.Like, could you own could do you
think you can appropriatelyassess men if you've only ever
worked with women? And they'relike, No, I'm like, Would it
surprise you to know I'm atHBCU? I was like, there are
(18:11):
people who don't have asignificant amount of experience
outside of media, which hasstereotypes outside of books, if
they see them with black people.I was like, Y'all, I know we in
Nashville and we're at HBCU, butI'll be honest with you guys,
not everyone is going to seeblack people, let alone in
(18:31):
person, let alone haveconversations with them, and
they can still become licensedand work with this population.
How hard would it be to do anappropriate assessment of a man.
If you've never worked with aman in your life, and you're
like, I've only had womenparticipants. But this is, I'm
sure it's similar. I'm sure thisvibe. I'm sure this is cool.
This is cool.
Just show me where the ovariesare and be like, what? Because
(18:53):
that's literally how. Because,in my opinion, that's how bad it
is. Like, Man, this person seemsso hyper vigilant, like, Oh my
God, oh, what the heck theirproblem is? Yeah, they're black.
Vigilance,
yes, yeah, vigilance forsurvival. Because I've said
oftentimes it's a privilege tonot have to read the room, in my
opinion. Yeah, there's, I don'tknow, many black people don't
(19:14):
scan the room to see safety.Yeah. I was talking to one of
one of the trainees, and she waslike, it's hard to understand.
And I was like, okay, so you'rea woman,
do you not scan the room ifyou're in a room full of men?
She was like, yeah. I was like,the hyper vigilance that that
most a lot of women feel whenthey're the only woman. I was
like, think about that. Butthink about that with the world.
(19:37):
Like, imagine if you were onlyin rooms where you're like, one
of the few women there,
imagine if you were only inrooms, whether you're going to
work, school, home, how wouldyou feel? And she's like, Oh,
I'd be stressed out, yeah, andit's awful. That's like, you
know, the thought process.Because a lot of women can
relate to that. A lot of womencan relate to holding their keys
in their hand. A lot of womencan relate to.
(20:00):
Oh, I'm not parking on thebottom floor. I'm not gonna be
able to go to this place,because I can't do that. A lot
of women can relate to it'sdark. I'm not. I'm have to spend
the night at your house, girl,because I'm not. I can't walk
home. That's what a lot of blackpeople feel like, hyper
vigilance. I get uncomfortablearound police all the time, and
I'm a stand up citizen, like, Imay be a little radical, but I'm
(20:20):
a stand up citizen, and everytime I'm like, imagine feeling
that all of the time, and thengoing to therapy for months,
even years, and never beinginvited to talk about it. You
know, it's like, you don't evenknow this client. You don't even
know them. Whatever you all havebeen working on has been a
fraction a glimpse of who thisperson is. So a part of
(20:42):
liberation also is to see peoplewholly and completely, and also
to know, along with culturaloppression, there's also just
the gift of culture. Along withrace, there's also there's not
just racism, but it is like thegift is when people say, we not
only have ancestral wounds, butancestral wisdom. So liberation
(21:04):
doesn't mean that now everysession has to be about the
trauma and terroristshistorically and in the present,
that in the liberation there'salso, you know, what is the
wisdom that either directly orindirectly, you got from your
community about how to navigatethese spaces, even if you're the
first one on the college campus,they showed you some things
(21:26):
about how to preserve yourself,protect yourself, nourish
yourself and and if you know hadinterracial adoption or your
parents just never talked aboutit, that it's not too late to
learn so some people learn Thesestrategies growing up with like,
racial and gender socialization,and some people's families
thought that the silence was toprotect them, right, that if I
(21:49):
don't talk about it right, thenthey will just feel confident,
and then they can just goconquer the world. And so that
being unprepared often thenleads to more of the blame and
shame of like, I must be doingsomething wrong, because if it's
a meritocracy, you get rewardedby how hard you work, and I keep
hitting that glass ceiling,then, like, what's wrong with me
(22:13):
versus this system is operatingin the way it was designed, and
it was designed to keep you outand you are still worthy. That's
one of the reasons why I try tofocus on you hear so much about
breaking generational curses,and I'm always like, or, how
about we talk about buildinggenerational bonds? I don't
know. I got language a littlebit later. Can we focus on that
language? How would that look insession? Like, how would you
(22:34):
like say someone's looking for aclinician? And you know, they're
not, you know how you stateclinical psychologist or
clinical social worker, andthey're not outright stating
that, like, oh, I also identifyas liberation psychologist. How
would that look in session?Like, what are some signs you'd
be like, Okay, I think thisperson is actually leading in
the aspect of liberation like,what, what would that look like
(22:55):
in session? Right? So, you know,a question that is you can
commonly ask is, you know, alongwith whatever this presenting
problem is, my relationshipproblems, my financial stress,
panic attacks, you know, a bigpart of my identity is my race,
is my gender, is my sexuality?What is your experience with
(23:18):
working with people with my sameidentity, and what are your
thoughts about howdiscrimination could be
affecting my mental health? Likethat's an easy question. So if
they're stumbling, if they say,I see people as people, I'm out.
This is a part of my identity.
(23:39):
You know, if they tell you theyused to date a black person, I'm
out that's not what I asked.
So they should have a comfortwith being able, and it
shouldn't be like a surprise orstartling that you're wondering
their ability and also theirmindset, right? You know, if
(24:00):
anything, I'm so glad you askedthat question. I think it's
fundamental. And here are theways that I approach it or look
at it. And then if you don'tfeel comfortable like initiating
that exchange, and do know, whenyou go to therapy, they're
seeing if they're a match foryou, but you also are seeing if
this person is a match. But youknow, so we have, in the
(24:20):
beginning, it's usually what'scalled an intake session. So we
ask you questions about all thethings psychologists have
decided are important, becausewe want to get an idea of you.
Once we have an idea of you,then we're going to come up with
the treatment goals together ofwhat are we working on? So
they're going to ask you aboutyour work history, they're going
to ask you about yourrelationship history. They'll
(24:42):
ask you about your health, aboutsubstance use, if they ask you a
bunch of questions and don't askyou anything about your various
identities or about bullying orstereotype or oppression,
they're not tuned in. They'renot so that.
Would be a warning and you andnow they might be following the
(25:04):
clinic form, and maybe they haveother consciousness, and it's
not reflected in the form. Andthen I could just say, when you
a lot of times, they'll askabout trauma history. So you
know, you asked about the stressand trauma in my life. Is this a
good time for me to tell youabout how racism has affected
me, and even with that, you'rehaving to work too hard, in my
(25:24):
opinion, because they should becreating the environment. But if
you want to give it a try,because I have had people who
say I like them for everythingelse, but I think I'm going to
have to go to somebody else toaddress the racism, right? And
so, you know, if it feels like agood connection, this is someone
I feel like I can relate to ingeneral, where they gave me some
(25:45):
helpful things about my eatingdisorder or a panic, you know,
then you can offer. I was hopingwe could address this and see
what they do with that.
Yes, see, this is why I love DrTaylor. So once again, I always
say like, you know I loved youbefore I met you. But because I
have a finding a therapist,guide, and I have, like, the
(26:06):
typical questions, like, Okay,let's get to this money. How
much we charge you do with lifescale? But I also have a section
it's like, hey, so someimportant aspects of my
identity, or this and this, doyou understand that? Do you Do
you grasp these topics? Have youworked with anyone with these
intersecting identities? And Ialways tell people, it's also as
important, it's important to seewhat they say, also what they
(26:27):
don't say, because you can tellwhen people are uncomfortable
discussing racism, or, you know,I'm okay with people not
understanding everything, I getto decide if that's okay, but
like, I don't like when peoplewhen you can tell somebody
doesn't know what they'retalking about, but they don't
feel comfortable. Like, now,comfortable acknowledging that.
That's odd to me, because it'slike, here's the thing, I'm not
gonna know everything, andyou're not gonna know
(26:47):
everything, but if you don'tfeel comfortable, as the
clinician in the room, admittingthat you don't know something,
yeah, because that's not beinggenuine to me, it's not and it
makes our radar go off of likethe vigilance of, as you said,
I'm scanning to see is thissafe? And let me say
authentically, authenticity issafe, right? If someone
(27:09):
authentically doesn't know, andthey know they don't know, then
okay, I can decide what I wantto do with that, right? But the
pretending, or the like pullingin stuff that does not matter
here, because it's the only wayyou can think you can relate to
me now, like now we're that'screating ruptures and problems.
(27:30):
It's one of the reasons why Isay I think people of the global
majority tend to have the bestBS meter, because when you are
forced to wear a mask all thetime, you can recognize when
someone else is wearing masks. Ithink that's why it's very good
for us to suss out authenticity,because it's just like, now, as
someone who literally has to dothis to survive, I too, can tell
that you don't know what you'retalking about, and I don't think
(27:52):
you're being genuine. So it'sgonna be a no. It's one of the
reasons why I'm like, I did thispost about like, yeah, I don't
like when certain people call megirl like it's infantilizing,
and sometimes I feel like youyou feel like you have to like
when they made it rhyme in thatexample, right? You Why can't
you just engage with me as ahuman, you know, on that aspect
of humanity, instead of beinglike, will we gotta make it
(28:15):
rhyme? Because you're not,right? Yeah, that's what they
like. They like the rhyming.They like the rhyme. And it's a
forced familiarity, right? Whenwe call each other girl, there's
a either a knowing of the otherin the immediate or ancestrally,
like we probably cousins, right,
(28:36):
collective identity, yes,
and so to not be of thecommunity and to spontaneously
say that at the first meeting,then it is an assumption of
connection that does not yetexist. Somebody said something.
It was a woman, she but this isalso like being on social media.
(28:58):
Some people have. They justreside outside their minds. And
sometimes they catch me on agood day and they said
something, sis, and I'm like,you don't insult my parents. I
do not know you. Okay. That'snot how I was reared. Okay.
You're not gonna insult my mom,because my mom raised me right,
okay? And she raised me and mymom, my parents raised their
sibling, all of us, right? Andto say, sis, feel like you
insulted my mom right now,
(29:21):
along the lines of this dynamic,it also raises that, you know,
the diversity within thecommunity. So it's like one
person can't give you a pass foreverybody else, but some people
may be cool with it. So I willsay, like on social media and
comments, many people havestarted calling me auntie. I'm
good with that. I think aboutour aunt Maxine, that's fine,
(29:43):
right? If I was in a mall likeso it's out of this context. I
feel like this, whatever IGrelationship that we are all
dwelling in. But if someone justwalked up to me on the street
and said it, then it would belike, what about me made you
think or associate?
Leave with your aunt, right?Your caretaker, right? Your
caretaker, because that's thebig thing, right? Like, the
(30:05):
aspect of I automatically go tothe mammy stereotype because I'm
like, yes, because I'm supposedto care for you, correct, right?
Yeah, it's gonna help. Okay,well, it is. Listen,
it's not for me, you know, like,I'm sure one day I'm gonna get
more but every single time onsocial media, I'll be like,
media, I like, listen, being apsychologist is what I do. It's
not who I am. Okay? Everyone cancatch these hands if you act
(30:28):
like you're right. Now, I aspeople are like, what about your
patience? You're not my patient,right? You didn't receive an
invoice, did you? You're not mypatient? Yeah, my caseload is
full. Oh, come on. And honoringthis person I appreciate is
leaning into the humanity. Ithink both psychologists and as
(30:48):
black women, they're going to bea tendency to dehumanize and so
like you, insist that theyencounter your humanity, right?
That's what you do in the wayyou show up. It's like, No,
you're gonna you're gonna bereminded regularly. This is a
human being you're interactingwith, which I think is
necessary, and unfortunately,radical.
(31:12):
I know radical. I love beingcalled Red, if I'm not gonna
lie, it's good. It's like, well,in order to be an agent of
change, you cannot stick withthe status quo. It's one of my
favorite one of my favoritethings, yeah, well, okay, I have
one more question, because wehave a lot of clinicians who are
out there, what would it looklike to if they're in their
training, or even if they'vegraduated and they're like, this
(31:34):
is something that reallyresonates with me. What would it
look like to try to work towardsintegrating more liberation in
their training, if they're inschool or in their continued
education, if they're out of itlike, what would it look like to
go this route? Yes. Sofortunately, the American
Psychological Associationpublished a book on Liberation
psychology, and so I wouldencourage you to get the book.
(31:57):
The beautiful part about the wayit's set up is it gives kind of
a general overview, but then ittalks about applying liberation
psychology to particularpopulations. So that's an
excellent resource on YouTube.There are a couple of like,
webinars I've been in and otherpeople have done, if you just
search liberation psychology,and you know, be too late for
(32:18):
you to get your little CE, butyou can still get the
information. And then I wouldjust say, as a practice, one of
the interventions istestimonials, which is, you
know, starting with mindfulnesspractice, getting people into
the body, but then inviting themto talk about experiences of
discrimination and how it feltto them, what the thoughts were
(32:40):
that came up, how they managedit, how they navigated it, to do
that heart listening. And theinteresting thing about the way
testimonials is presented, whenwe talk about disclosure of the
professional as you can alsoshare your experience you've had
with racism and how it affectedyou and how you deal with it. So
that's just one of the ways ofinviting it in from that
(33:02):
narrative therapy perspective.And I love that, because one of
the things that I reallygravitated towards was honoring
it's in research. I've alwaysliked qualitative better,
because I always tell mystudents, you can turn words
into numbers, but you can neverturn numbers into words. If you
did a survey and 70% of peoplein that survey, you found out
they were depressed. What wouldbe your next question? Why I
feel like
(33:23):
when it comes to the kind ofresearch that I'm interested in,
and especially the population ofinterest, I like being able to
honor the narratives, like honorthe voices that were so often
silenced. Like, I want to hearyou talk. I don't want to do the
survey, but I want you to tellme there is no right or wrong
answer. And I think also intherapy, a lot of times there
can be different perspectives,where it's just like you're not
supposed to share any aspect ofyourself or your experience. And
(33:45):
I never really gravitated withthat in the first place. So I
really appreciate that aspect ofit. Well, that's doctor. That's
the doctor. Tell everybody wherethey can find you. You have your
podcast.
So my podcast, well as yourbook, Homecoming, the book
that's already out is calledhomecoming, and the workbook for
(34:05):
Homecoming is coming out thisJune. I invite you to pre order
it. The name of it is reclaimyourself, and it's available
wherever books are sold,
perfect and social media, theinterwebs, yes, you can follow
me as Dr tama, and it's spelledas it appears on the screen, D,
R, T, H, E, M, a, on x andInstagram and threads and tick
(34:31):
tock, LinkedIn. But I'm not veryearly on LinkedIn, but yes, I
encourage you to fight. Followme. My website is Dr tama.com,
thank you so much, Doctor tama,we very much appreciate it. I'm
not on LinkedIn as much either.It's not as fun to me. I need,
like, a Yes, show me what you'rewhich stages you're on, but I
need to. I need a laugh too.Yes. Like, here are you? Like,
(34:55):
yeah, I need some. I'm just,like, there are no videos on
this platform. I'm just lookingat words.
That's what I wanted to read, abook,
videos. Well, I so appreciateyou. Appreciate your work. You
are such a gift. And so forth.The sacrifice of time, energy,
effort that you spend to educateus and to inspire us. On behalf
(35:18):
of the community here, national,global community, I want to say,
thank you. Thank you. Oh, mygoodness, I'm going to put that
be my ringtone. Thank you. Ilove it.
But thank you so much. Andeveryone, as always, remember to
be kind to yourself. Two stepsforward and one step back is
still one step forward. That isjust math. Y'all. Have a good
(35:39):
day, night, week, whateveryou're doing. And thank you so
much for listening to the show.Bye.
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