July 16, 2024 • 35 mins
Summary
In this episode, Dr. Raquel Martin and Bishop Joseph Warren Walker III discuss the intersection of faith, spirituality, and mental health. They address the stigma surrounding mental health in the Black community and within religious contexts. Bishop Walker emphasizes the importance of integrating therapy and faith to achieve holistic healing. They also discuss the need for leaders to prioritize mental health and create spaces for open conversations. The conversation highlights the significance of addressing the root causes of mental health issues and the role of therapy in facilitating healing. The conversation between Dr. Raquel Martin and Bishop Joseph Warren Walker, III explores the integration of theology and psychology in addressing mental health within the church. They discuss the importance of creating a culture within the congregation that promotes mental health awareness and provides resources for support. They also emphasize the need for partnerships and collaborations between mental health professionals and spiritual leaders to strengthen the church's ability to address mental health issues. The conversation highlights the significance of allowing space for grief and lamentation and the importance of questioning and seeking professional help when needed.
Takeaways
- Spirituality and faith are central to mental well-being, particularly within the Black community.
- Stigma surrounding mental health in religious contexts can be attributed to erroneous theological teachings and a lack of understanding.
- Integrating therapy and faith is essential for holistic healing and addressing the root causes of mental health issues.
- Leaders in religious communities should prioritize mental health and create spaces for open conversations and support.
- Therapy is a valuable tool for addressing trauma and facilitating healing, and it should be embraced as part of the journey towards well-being. Develop a culture within the congregation that promotes mental health awareness and provides resources for support.
- Form partnerships and collaborations between mental health professionals and spiritual leaders to strengthen the church's ability to address mental health issues.
- Allow space for grief and lamentation, acknowledging the need for healing and support.
- Encourage questioning and seeking professional help when needed, recognizing that faith and intellectual curiosity can coexist.
Bio
Bishop Joseph W. Walker, III, stands as the esteemed senior leader of Mt. Zion Baptist Church in Nashville, Tennessee, where he joyfully celebrates three decades of pastoral leadership. Hailing from Shreveport, Louisiana, Bishop Walker's academic journey includes a Bachelor of Arts degree from Southern University, followed by a Master of Divinity from Vanderbilt University and a Doctor of Ministry from Princeton Theological Seminary.
In addition to his pastoral duties, Bishop Walker serves as the International Presiding Bishop of the Full Gospel Baptist Church Fellowship and brings his visionary leadership to the Board of Trustees for Tennessee State University. A prolific author, speaker, and community advocate, he is renowned for his impactful ministry that spans both local and global initiatives. Bishop Walker's commitment to faith and education is mirrored in his role as a devoted husband to Dr. Stephaine Hale Walker, with whom he shares the joy of parenting two children.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Raquel Martin (00:00):
Steve, Hello everyone, and welcome to Mind
your mental just a reminder thatthis podcast is not meant to be
a substitute for a relationshipwith a licensed mental health
professional. I know they arehard to find, and I get that I
have a bunch of resources on mywebsite if you need them, but I
am not your clinician. I am apsychologist, but I am not your
(00:21):
psychologist, so if you need anyspecific help, please look for
the help of a licensed mentalhealth professional. Learn all
you can learn from the podcast.Enjoy the episode. So everyone,
welcome to Mind your mental onthis week's episode, we are
talking about faith andspirituality and religion and
mental health, and today we haveBishop Joseph Warren Walker, the
(00:41):
third who is actually the seniorpastor of Mount Zion Baptist
Church in Nashville, Tennessee,where I reside. I actually went
to this church every singleSunday. I often make the joke
that my father in law, we usedto get picked up from the
shuttle. And I make the jokethat my father in law likely
picked me up at fist and took usto church, and he said it
(01:02):
probably wasn't. So this is,this isn't even just a regular
episode. This is family ties tothis episode. My husband grew up
in this church. Y'all this is,this is. So when I knew I was
having an episode aboutspirituality and faith, I was
like, oh, we gotta get BishopWalker. And not even Bishop
Walker, everybody here, we justcall him Bishop, just like, we
just gotta get Bishop. So BishopWalker, the third serves as the
(01:27):
International Presiding Bishopof the full gospel Baptist
church fellowship. You're bornin Shreveport, Louisiana, which
I didn't know, and you earnedyour bachelor's from Southern
University, a master's indivinity from Vanderbilt
University and a Doctorate fromPrinceton Theological Seminary,
along with three honorarydoctorates. I don't know how you
have the time, because withchurch and your family, with
(01:49):
everything. So since beginninghis pastor at age 24 he's grown
his congregation from 175 toover 30,000 members, including
my family members, and as a bestselling author of 13 books, a
prominent speaker, mediapersonality, a parent on shows
like Ricky smiley radio show andCNN, and serves on several
(02:09):
boards, including the HarryMedical College and Tennessee
State University. Is married toDr Hale, and you are the parents
of two very proud, proud parentsof two children. Welcome to the
show.
Unknown (02:20):
I am so glad to be here. Dr Martin, thank you for
having me. Of course,
Dr. Raquel Martin (02:24):
I always feel like when you talk about mental
health and you talk about wellbeing, you have to talk about
the aspect of spirituality andfaith, because it was such a it
has always been such a stronghold in our community and in
your experience. How do you feellike spirituality contributes to
mental well being, particularlywithin the black community. Hey,
everyone, just a reminder thatmind, your mental is not just a
(02:45):
podcast, it is also a amazingcommunity. If I do say so
myself, it's phenomenal. You getmore access to me. What more
could you want in this life? Soif you want to join the
community, if you're not alreadyon the community, go to my
social media. My social media isthe same Raquel Martin, PhD, and
DM me the word community, so youcan get details on joining this
(03:08):
amazing, flipping community. Youget more access to me. Y'all I'm
a delight. All right. All right.Hope to see you there.
Unknown (03:16):
I think it is central to our experience. I think that
historically, I'm very aware ofa lot of the stigmas associated
with mental health andaddressing it, but I believe
that it has always existed, evenin Bible days, and exist now
more than ever, particularly alot of what we are seeing in our
communities, and what we've seenduring the pandemic,
(03:36):
exacerbation of mental healthissues and etc, the church has
really had to pivot to addressthose issues and help people
navigate that. So I thinkthere's a great intersection
between that faith and mentalhealth, spirituality. Mental
health is something that I'mvery much locked in on as a
faith leader,
Dr. Raquel Martin (03:51):
and I love that. Why? Why do you feel as
though there is so much stigmawhen it comes to mental health?
Because I will say, just assomeone who has attended to
church, I had never felt thatthere was this distinction of
you can have faith or you canhave mental health like that was
never been the case, but thereare some places where it's like
that. Why do you think there'ssome kind of confusion or stigma
about having both within yourlife to have appropriate well
(04:15):
being well?
Unknown (04:15):
I think it comes out of, I think erroneous
theological positioning andposturing and teaching. I think
that a lot of folks haveassociated getting therapy,
working through that as a lackof faith. So we use our faith.
We've weaponized our faith to adegree to say, I'm just going to
believe God for this, or I'm notgoing to accept this, I'm not
(04:36):
going to claim this, I'm notgoing to whatever. But in fact,
we don't realize that Jesusreally was an incredible
therapist, and he helped peoplewalk through their own
situations and several instancesof Scripture, we see it played
out, but I do think it takes agreat deal of intentionality to
see that and and I've writtenabout it, talked about it, and I
think that people have a fear ofone. I think the social stigma
(04:59):
of seeing that there. Therapisthas been well, you crazy or
something wrong with you? That'sthat's in our community, big,
but in the church world, it'swell, you don't have faith. And
that works not only just intherapy, but it works also in
medicine. People don't want totake their medicine because,
well, I'm just believing God. Soit's like helping people
understand that God has theseincredible people of faith in
these areas who can help yousteward your way through these
(05:21):
difficult terrains of life, andso I'm giving you the word, and
they're walking that word outwith you and your own human
experience every single day.Yes, I
Dr. Raquel Martin (05:29):
agree. Can I tell you an incredibly horny
joke that I bet you you'vealready heard, but it's one that
I use. It's one that I use whenindividuals state that they're
like, Oh, I understand. I'mstruggling with this, but I'm
gonna go to church. I don't needboth, right? It's a it's a very
corny joke, but I'm a very cornyjoke person, and you probably
already heard it. Okay, so thereis, and I will legit tell this
(05:50):
every single time someone tellsme that I'm like, right? Let me
tell you a little joke, and youtell me if this resonates with
you. So there it was raining,right? And it was about to
flood, right? And so this guy iswaiting outside his house. And
have you heard this one? Goahead, you have okay. So a guy,
a guy is waiting outside hishouse, and they send like a
(06:10):
ambulance, something like, Oh,let me, let me take you away
from this area because it'sabout to flood. And he said, No,
God's got me, right? So it goesall the way up to, like the the
front steps, and they send likea boat, because you can't even
walk anymore. And you're like,come on. Like, come on, let's
get you to say things off. God'sgot me so it keeps going up, and
he goes to the roof, and ahelicopter comes, and he's no,
God's got me so then it floods,and the the man passes away, and
(06:33):
he goes to heaven, and he's gotwhat? What happened? I thought
you had me. He said, I sent youa and blessed. I sent you a
boat. I sent you a helicopter.You clearly wanted to meet me.
And I always say, I always say,we have psychiatrists, we have
psychologists, we havecounselors, we have clinical
social workers. You believe inGod, don't you believe that he
(06:53):
sent me here to help you? Like,what? Where do you think I came
from? Like, where I just Ididn't just create myself? This
is, oh God, right. And I alwayssay, so Can I schedule you for a
session? Or what are we? Whatare we thinking like when it
comes down to it? And I alwayssay, if you are going to the
same way, I feel like manypeople talk about physical
health, if you are going tohonor the body that God gave you
(07:14):
by taking care of your body, youalso need to take care of your
mind. And they're hand in handon if it's about faith and
spirituality and honoring theGod who put you on this earth.
That also comes with going totherapy and and not seeing it as
like a weapon. Sometimes peoplethrow it like you need therapy,
but I always say, if you deservea space where you are
prioritized, where you arecentered, because we live in
(07:35):
such a busy world, it's so hardto slow down like it's hard to
rethink about what happens oreven process it in the moment.
And that's what therapy does foryou. And I would say, if you're
you're honoring your body toGod, you need to take care of
the body he gave you, correct?Okay,
Unknown (07:52):
particularly, you're right. And I think in the faith
community, as with all things inthe faith community, starts with
the leadership, and it startswith leaders really making it a
priority. And one of the thingsthat I'm very proud of is that
we have given our staff, forexample, what we call Selah, and
it's, it's three or four daysevery quarter. It doesn't, you
know, affect their their paidtime off. It's like, you take
(08:15):
three days, shut down, go totherapists, go to the mountains,
take a mental health break, allof this stuff that's happening,
and other churches around thecountry are recognized the need
to give our teams these selahs,these retreats, these moments to
go and talk to somebody, go andreflect. And I think it's so
important. I think how we how weteach, how we preach, how we
(08:37):
integrate. I always tell myZion. I approach scripture from
a theological, psychological,sociological perspective. I'm
trying to look at what what ishappening in the sociological
community. How is it affectingthat person's mind, and what is
God saying about it all? And Ithink by addressing it that way,
helps people then tap into Wow,okay, I understand that, that I
never see the woman with theissue of blood the same way I
(09:00):
understand the trauma she musthave experienced in isolation,
the trauma of what she mighthave experienced just to pull
herself together, to get toJesus. And Jesus did not just
heal her. He said, Your faithmade you whole, and that is the
ultimate goal. Here to religioncan heal you, if you in a sense,
but it's really the therapistand the and the marriage between
(09:22):
the two that can make a personwhole. So I
Dr. Raquel Martin (09:25):
love that the marriage, yeah, who else do what
you do? Like, I love the factyou mentioned the marriage
between the two can makeindividuals whole. And it sounds
like when it comes to stigmawithin mental health, you're
able to address it head on bystating, often, like, these are
things that we look into. Arethere any other ways that you
feel as though is helpful, orthat your church does to address
(09:46):
stigmas when it comes to mentalhealth and also support those
who are seeking help? Yeah,yeah. So
Unknown (09:51):
obviously we have actually, in the month of May
every year, our entire deeperdive Bible study is dedicated to
mental health, so folks can goon to. Outside Nashville, and
look at and it's always going tolive there. And we every single
Wednesday Bible study, we havetherapists on teaching about
various aspects of mentalhealth, walking through grief,
(10:11):
walking through trauma, and ourpastor of congregational care is
doing those conversations. Andit's a powerful we get five
weeks just on mental healthteaching and Bible study. We
have also, through church fit,which is our health and wellness
program my wife leads, that wehave mental health Mondays. We
have resources to provide forthe congregation on resources to
(10:35):
tap into. Shameless plug, I'vewritten a book restored at the
root, and this book is aboutgetting to the source of
emotional, spiritual struggle.And I, God spoke to me once, and
I was working on the sermonabout this. And I say that to
say they use this as smallgroups. I worked. I worked on
the sermon about man Jesus meetsin the tombs. And the Bible says
(10:57):
that Jesus needs to be cuttinghimself, and he's, he's out
there harming himself, harminghimself. He has a demon, and
Jesus walks up to him and says,What is your name? And it was
there that God spoke to me andsays, This is what therapy
starts. I said, Well, hold on,God. Later, I just want to
preach about you healing andwhat is your name. And Jesus,
(11:19):
nobody had ever asked in hisname, Doctor Raquel. Everybody
looked at his condition. Andwhen Jesus asked him his name,
you know what he says, We areLegion. We are many, and there
in lies the issue. We are easilyjudging and diagnosing what we
see at the surface. But thereare layers of Legion that is
(11:43):
contributing to certainbehaviors. And I was suggesting
to the congregation that whenyou see a person acting out a
particular way, if you take timeand help them walk through
therapy and do the real rootwork, you might discover that
the reason why this person isacting out at 18, or the child
is acting out at 16. Becausemaybe you should go back to when
(12:05):
they were six. Maybe if you goback to the experiences and
recognize it's not just onedemon we're addressing. We're
addressing multiple. And I saythis is what happens in
dysfunctional church, while youhave people at the altar every
Sunday, didn't I just pray foryou and your back? Because what
keeps showing up is a differentmanifestation of Legion. Yeah.
(12:27):
So I could cast out alcoholism,but I did not cast out
abandonment. I did not deal withthe rejection, I did not deal
with the abuse. And so that'swhy having me to pray for you
and then get you up off of yourface and say, now go talk to
this person. Is what helps,because what you do is get to
the root work. And people don'twant the root work is the hard
(12:50):
work. Lay your hands on me,Pastor, let me that's the easy
part. But when you get up, Ineed you to go and talk to
Doctor Raquel. So
Dr. Raquel Martin (13:05):
you know, you I often say, like, people
mention, like, coping skills,right? And they'll be like, Oh,
I'll do the breathing exercisesand the stuff. And I'm just
like, I want you to understandthat you're just waving at
branches at this point. Youunderstand it'll help you in the
moment. But just like youmentioned, well, I was at the
pulpit last Sunday. I did seeyou there for the sake. So
(13:25):
what's what's happening? It'sbecause it's the root work is
it's, it's, it's tough. I justdid a post the other day about,
like, when it comes to therapy,good therapy, you should think
about it like a washing machine,like it's supposed to agitate,
like it's supposed to it bringsup these things that you didn't
even acknowledge. And I'll sayto my patients, I'm like, You
came here for one thing. Spoileralert, I guarantee you we gonna
come up with three or four morethings, and that's because this
(13:47):
brings up stuff that you didn'tknow you needed to do. But the
branch work that's easy,teaching someone a couple coping
skills and them using it, that'sfantastic. That's a branch,
though. The root is we need toget to the source of why every
single time we have theseconcerns regarding the
relationships. Or do you get tothis place of a of a good
relationship? There's someaspect of self sabotage. Where
does that come from? Like,where? Where does it come from
(14:08):
that you feel unworthy becausethese scenarios, I'm honest with
you, you sabotage thisrelationship. We were good last
week, and this week you said,Well, I had to move out. What?
So we need to get to the rootof, okay, like we've been
working together for a year, andthis is relationship three, and
I'm be honest with you, you maynot see the pattern. I do.
(14:29):
There's something that's goingon and it's a root thing, and
the coping skills and thebreathing that's not going to
get to why, and some, in someaspect, you feel unworthy of
this relationship and they'resabotaging. So it does have to
go hand in hand. I find that. Ifind that, like you, I don't see
many churches having an issuewith this thus far, like at all.
I think that we've gotten to aplace where people are getting
(14:50):
more comfortable discussingtherapy, especially I teach at
tsu, when I tell you this dude,it's like a normal it could be
like, Oh, I had a soda, went totherapy. Let me. Tell you what
my therapist said, and I'm like,wow, this is not,
Unknown (15:09):
no, not at
Dr. Raquel Martin (15:10):
all. And they'll be very open, yeah, my
therapist, that's amazing.That's amazing. Yeah,
Unknown (15:17):
yeah, Main Street becoming mainstream. It's become
mainstream. And I think, also, Ithink you're seeing a lot of
leaders. That is the one that Ihave any influence over. I teach
you all time, like you have toaddress a look at I have a group
of folks, for example, that Itake on this retreat, and we
study scripture, and we like,these are pastors. And I like,
okay, look at this text. Tellwhat you see. Look at a text and
(15:39):
say, I want, I want you to seethe psychological and
theological. Let's deal withthat. So why? Because it's
psychological. I said becausethis is a therapy issue. And we
look at Scripture that way, itjust comes alive. So we look at
this text one day and Jesus seeshis father, who brings his son
to Jesus to the disciples, andsays, I took my son to your
disciples, and they could nothelp him, because he throws
(15:59):
himself on the ground, bogglingbones at the mouth, he's pencied
All this stuff, right? That's aclear case study to somebody
like you, right? Because, Jesus,no, Jesus, then the father says,
I have brought him to youbecause your disciples could
not, meaning your church couldnot help him. So Jesus, what
will you do? So Jesus, then, islike giving a case study on how
(16:22):
to address a situation like thistrauma. And guess what? Jesus
says, He raises a question, justlike he did with the man of the
tombs. He says, How long has hebeen like this? And the father
is forced to be accountable andsay, since he was a child. And
after the father says that, thenthe father says, If you can do
(16:45):
anything, have mercy on us.Because the fact that he said it
with his mouth, that it's beenthis way since he's a child, he
took ownership that perhaps whatis wrong with my son is what's
wrong with me. So I initiallywas bringing my son to you, but
we both need your help.
Dr. Raquel Martin (17:06):
And you know what? That's how a lot of family
sessions go. Like, a lot oftimes I had scenarios when I was
in training and we would havesupposed to be doing like a like
a child session, and they'd belike, Oh, here's my child. I'll
be back in 50 minutes. And Isaid, like, I was like, whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa, that's that'snot it. Oh, hey, yeah, I
(17:26):
mentioned the whole aspect of,if you bring a child to therapy,
surprise, like it, it has to bethat sense, because if you're
their most salient relationship,right? Like when it comes to
caregivers, you're their mostsalient relationship. And it's
like, when I'm working withpatients, and they're like, I'll
never forget, I had a couple ofsessions where it was family
(17:47):
therapy, but it was a mom andthe grandmom and the child,
because that was the othercaregiver in the home. They
resided with the with thegrandma. And first, we just
started off with the mom and shewe mentioned stuff to go by and
things to work together. Andthey were like, Oh, I tried to
do this, but my mom didn't wantto do it. Or I would try to do
this, and I was trying toconvince my mom, and she said to
do it this way. And I'm like,Well, you you have to
(18:09):
acknowledge the fact that yourmom is a salient caregiver as
well. So if this is going towork, your mom has to be this
has been your mom is, your momis involved in this session too,
because she's a salientcaregiver. And if she How is she
expected to try new strategies,if she doesn't even understand
where they're coming from, howis she expected to contribute to
the growth of this child and asa result of this family, if
(18:29):
you're not bringing her tosession like, this is her, this
is her session too. And she'sjust, well, I just thought it
would just be me, and I'm like,it seems like this, you guys are
a whole entire unit. And what Iexplained to them when they came
to session as you guys are coparenting. And I know very much
it seems like co parenting istypically, which is solely the
the parents of the child, butI'm like, You're a salient
caregiver. You were co you'reyou're co parenting with your
(18:51):
with your mother. That's what itis. So to not have her in
session, it's not gonna it's notgonna work. What happens to the
child will impact therelationship that the child has
with themselves, with theteachers, with their grandma,
with their mom. And to get tothe real root, you have to think
of, you think of roots, and youthink of lineage too. This is a
family affair. It's a familylike it's a family affair. You
(19:11):
had to bring it in, and it hasso much more progress. And I
love the fact that you, I'll behonest, I've never heard I live
in you anyone tie in the aspectof theology and psychology, and
it's very evident that it's ifit's immersed in you, it's
immersed in your entire churchhome. And I feel like that that
is amazing. If you if, whatadvice would you give for
(19:32):
individuals who haven'tintegrated it this way in their
church homes? Like, how canthese partnerships be formed?
Or, if they're there and they'renot being utilized
appropriately, how can thesepartnerships and collaborations
between mental healthprofessionals and spiritual
leaders be strengthened so thatyou're you're giving a strong
bedrock of your your church?
Unknown (19:52):
Yeah, I think, I think, I think first of all, you would
have to develop a culture withinyour congregation of teaching it
and and having more. Despitebeing aware of when mental
health awareness month arehighlighting those things and
resources, and making yourchurch aware that you are a
trusted partner in thecommunity, and letting partners
know, therapists know, youprobably have folks in your
(20:14):
congregation who are full timetherapists, people who do this
work every single day, Andrew aswell, and maybe creating a
database, creating anopportunity that we've done in
our ministry, greatly broken itdown, where people could
actually go in online and figureout various resources and things
of that nature, and find outwhat people are doing. And there
are organizations andindividuals and things like, for
example, I was very honest manyyears ago after going through
(20:36):
the trauma of the death of aspouse, and I talked about how
guilders club walk me throughthat. And I was, you know, I
didn't go. There's pastor Walkerwith this Joseph and how those
folks nurtured me through ingroup counseling. There's a
variety of differentorganizations that are doing
great work, and you have toexpose your congregation of
those things so that the burdendoesn't just fall on you alone,
being a trusted partner. And Ithink really looking at how to
(20:59):
approach scripture and teachingdifferently, because I think it
just, it's so much content inScripture for me that I just
every everything I look at, I'malways like, eager to get to
what is happening in the psycheof this person. How does God
reconcile? How does God it'seasy to say, you know that Moses
(21:22):
is dead and Joshua, take thesepeople, but you're going to deal
with the trauma of the grief ofpeople that knew Moses. You're
going to deal with when oneseason is over, deal with the
cacophony that's exemplifiedwith the scripture you couldn't
tell the voice of those whorejoicing and those who are
weeping. That's this. You have alot of that happening in our
congregation right now. Peopleright now, in this cacophony
(21:46):
about what's happening inculture, people are excited
about maybe what might behappening in their personal
lives and what's happening. Andyou got all these social issues,
people nervous about theselection and all these
different things. So you'll knowwho's shouting because they
happy, who shout because they'renervous. You don't really know,
how do you delineate that andallow people? And I think it, I
think one of the things that Ithink that is has really blessed
(22:10):
me one, one moment, God woke meup like two in the morning,
right? And really had me in myface, praying for not just my
congregation, before thecommunity, and really shared
with me that the community atthe time in which this happened
was in communal lament. And itwas, it was a moment I never
thought about communal lament,like all the different things
(22:32):
that were going on at that time,between covid, between what we
saw with social justice stuff,and it was like you're going to
have to allow people space tomourn, to walk through this, and
we amplified our resources inthat season to help provide
opportunities for people to togrieve and to lament, and you
(22:54):
have to acknowledge that youjust can't keep going on saying
the Lord's going to make a way.Lord's going to make a way, he's
going to make a way. But I gottaget to the way first. So,
Dr. Raquel Martin (23:05):
yeah, what you're talking about is
something that often comes upwhen it comes in mental health,
and it's spiritual bypassing,which is the thought process of
the use of spiritual practicesand beliefs to avoid dealing
with painful feelings orunresolved wounds or even
developmental needs, using yourspirituality to escape from
facing emotional andpsychological issues. Because
(23:26):
even when you mentioned, like,God's gonna make a way, you said
it very good. Well, you gottamake your way. Not gonna you're
gonna just be like, Oh, here yougo. I'm gonna shine a light on
this. And like that happens sooften. What do you How would you
identify if someone werelistening to this? What would
you say are like, some signswhere, if you were talking to
someone and you'd be like, itseems to me that you are using
(23:49):
your spirituality to try tosidestep dealing with this. What
were some signs that you wouldsee?
Unknown (23:55):
I love that. I love that. And of course, Dr Anita
Phillips, in her book, dealswith that head on right and this
idea, and I would say to them,what she says, it's okay to let
the water flow. Why are we? Whyare we trying to just bypass
this moment? Pause, Stop, stopwith it. I and it really. I deal
(24:15):
with it because I'm a bishop,and so therefore, as a bishop,
you pass the pastors. So you'dbe amazed at how many pastors
are programmed to just say, Youknow what, this is happening,
that's happening, but you knowwhat, man, guys, I'm just going
to trust God like I pause, yeah.Let's just pause. Let's just let
(24:36):
this flow. You are clogging upthe garden. Let's, let's, it's
okay, you don't have to bypassthis. And I think often the
reason why we bypass it'sbecause one, we try to appear a
Herculean in our faith that weare, two, because we are
concerned about the perceptionof people viewing us as weak and
vulnerable. And three, we don'thave any places we can be
vulnerable and be trusted withthat. But I think that that's
(24:58):
why it's important to just. Usfrom the top, create a culture
and a climate by which peoplecould say it's okay to It's
okay. You don't have to, like,Be the hero. And I've said it
every funeral. I say this is thefamily. It's okay to grieve. You
don't have to be the hero. Iknow you want to be the rock for
everybody and be strong. Andpeople tell you you'll get over
(25:19):
no own this moment. Job went hismantle. Job cried out to God
when he lost all his children.Job grieved. And grief is a
process. David did not runthrough the valley. He walked
through
Dr. Raquel Martin (25:37):
the valley. And you know what makes me think
about that? I always feel asthough there are sometimes when
people feel like grief, as theymay feel, not the pain or the
feelings associated with that,or the possible questioning they
may feel shame or guilt withthat, making it feel as though,
like they're they don't havetheir faith in God, and I think
that's why some people run awayfrom it, because it's just well,
(25:58):
does this mean that I'm notclose? I'm not close enough. Am
I not doing what I should bedoing? Faith wise, and I'm
always when it came to like, myfaith and my spirituality, I've
always come at it from both endsof spirituality and religion and
also the intellectual aspects.And I remember having a
conversation with someone andthey mentioned like me being so
inquisitive. And they were like,that's not really, you can't
(26:20):
really question anything. Isaid, Oh, I wholeheartedly
disagree, because you, I thinkmy faith is stronger because I
read and do all this andquestion and still believe. And
you, on the other end, you feelas though your faith is stronger
because you haven't you're tooafraid to test it. I was like, I
wholeheartedly disagree, becauseI very much believe that being
(26:42):
educated and having thequestions and getting the
answers to the questions andstill having the faith, that is
faith, not the aspect of I'm notgonna, I'm not gonna question
anything. Well, don't, don't youthink that the fact that I do
love science and look ateverything and still have my
faith is that not a testament tohow strong my faith is there's
nothing wrong with beinginquisitive, and I think people
(27:04):
during significant aspects ofpain and grief maybe they ran
away from because I don't wantto question what happened. I
don't want to feel too bad,because I don't want it to seem
as though I don't believe inGod. And I always think that,
like my inquisitiveness, mypersistence, me being a huge
nerd, if anything, thatstrengthens my faith, because I
can read everything and be like,yep, still believe. Look at all
(27:24):
the everything and be like,yeah, the faith is still there.
It's still there. Like itdoesn't. If anything, I've
always stated that that makes memy faith is stronger because
it's just I was blessed enoughto be given this brain and to be
given this inquisitiveness. Andevery single time I'm like, Who
do you think gave this? Everytime people say that I'm like,
where do you think this comesfrom? Okay, there was an idea of
(27:45):
me before my parents were evenhere. I know where this comes
from. I use it. I use it well. Iuse the gifts that are given to
me. That's my brain. And if myfaith is still there,
transformed by
Unknown (27:56):
the redoing of it, don't exactly so, yeah,
absolutely.
Dr. Raquel Martin (28:01):
I very much encourage people. I think
sometimes they feel like theweakness will be like, am I
questioning the Lord? And just,I don't think God ever said
don't do that. It's just like,Yeah, take time with it. Do you
have any specific advice thatyou would give to someone who is
struggling but they may behesitant to seek both spiritual
and professional help? Whatwould you say to those
(28:21):
individuals, because I'm surethey're just like you mentioned
when you mentioned communitylamenting, it's just a difficult
time, I very Yeah, I would be. Idon't think it's possible for me
not to find anyone who is isn'tstruggling with anything because
it's such a difficult time. Whatwould you say to individuals who
are struggling and they're stillhesitant to seek both spiritual
(28:42):
and professional help. Yeah,
Unknown (28:44):
I would say it's not an unfamiliar place. You're not by
yourself. If you feel that way,there are a lot of people that
have that struggle. I think it'smoments like this. If you're
listening to this, you realizethat here you have before you a
faith leader, you have atherapist who work together in
tandem, to say that there arethere are faith communities that
will not judge you, that havecreated safe spaces for you to
(29:07):
work out your questions withGod, that we're not intimidated
because you have questions. Ihave questions with God. I've
experienced trauma. It's createdempathy for me, for people who
along their journey. And so Ithink that whatever you are in
life, whatever your status,whatever you're dealing with,
it's important that you don'tdeal with it by yourself. You
would never intended to do lifealone, but in community, and
(29:28):
that's where the faith communitycomes. But then please know that
our strong recommendation thatwe have to give you the
foundational principles of God'sWord, which we believe are
powerful and organic and helpyou to move in faith. Faith
without works is dead, and thework is doing the real work
every single day of talking to atherapist to walk through it is
(29:50):
something that you will beencouraged to do, and I think
it's courageous of you to do it,because it allows you to say,
Hey, I am working on me, andit's okay to have a. Cessation
of all the work and do all thethings. I'll put it to you like
this, my car, one day was out ofalignment, and I was trying to
drive it, but it kept pulling.It kept pulling until I realized
(30:12):
I had to go get an alignment.And sometimes in life, you can
be trying to get to yourdestination, and you can feel
that poor, like I'm not myself,I'm not in alignment. And what I
had to do is realize I had tostop the car, take it to a
mechanic, walk away from it, letthem jack it up, let them change
out the tires. You cannot drivea car and get it aligned at the
(30:33):
same time. And there's a momentyou gotta step away and say, I
gotta stop all this rat race,and I have to make certain that
I let somebody else bring somealignment in this so that I can
be more efficient and moreeffective getting in my
destination. Amen. I
Dr. Raquel Martin (30:50):
bet y'all didn't know y'all was getting a
word today too. Did you? Youthought you were in the podcast
episode? We got a double whammytoday, y'all. Amen. I think it's
so important to just reiterate,Bishop say, God is not afraid of
your questions, you will besurprised. You you'll be
surprised. How many timespeople, actually, I hear that, a
lot people being surprised withmy faith. It's such an
(31:12):
intellectual I'm like, Oh yeah,that's why I got my faith.
That's weird. What you talkabout. They they go hand in
hand. So like, God is not afraidof your questions, the church
should not be afraid of yourquestions. Of your questions.
And it is courageous to seekhelp, because you do have to.
You gotta dig up those roots.And let me tell you something,
they they're gnarled half thetime. You afraid be like, Oh, I
did not, I forgot about that.And it's courageous to decide to
(31:35):
work on yourself, because we dooperate in a community. I always
state that therapy is one, canbe one pathway to healing, but
therapy, you don't need therapyheal. In my opinion, it's one
pathway. You do need communitylike you cannot, you cannot grow
or heal in isolation. It'sinteresting for Frederick,
federal stage mentioned, likeduring therapy. He said that if
you're not in therapies and youdon't really challenge your way
(31:57):
of thinking often, unless youhave a space to do it. A lot of
people just go on and they'rejust like, this is the right
way. And these therapy makes youchallenge, evolve your thought
process to be like, andafterwards you'll be like, Man,
is this how I was living? Isthis because you Why would you
challenge if you don't, if youdon't have someone to help you
challenge, if you don't have anobjective person, like, it's,
it's, it's, it's very much theaspect of questioning. And I
(32:20):
think that's that's amazing.Well, Bishop Walker, tell
everybody where they can findyou in all of your you had so
one you could find themchurches, 13 books, y'all best
selling ones. And what was themost recent one that you the one
that you just looked it up,recent book
Unknown (32:36):
The most well, this is restored at the root and
restored at the root. I thinkit's like number number 11 and
restore the root number 12 is mymental health book. It's the
intersection between faith andand mental health. And then the
last book I've written, which isanother book that deals with the
same thing, a differentcapacity, leadership and
loneliness, yes, and space. Andyou can find though, you can
(32:58):
find me at Joseph Walker threeorg. That's my website. Joseph
Walker three org. You follow meon Instagram at Joseph Walker
three or ministry, go out thereon Mount Zion, Nashville on
YouTube. Check out. End of themessage. I have a series I did
struggling with God, and this isabout the questions we have for
God, and God can handle thosequestions. And it's about people
(33:18):
being in those those mentalhealth spaces and how God worked
them through that. Elijah was ata place of suicide, and how God
brought him back from that. Andso those are things that we
enjoy teaching. We help people,and we look forward to just how
we can be a blessing to you.
Dr. Raquel Martin (33:33):
Yes, I really appreciate the fact of sharing
just specifics about like mentalhealth is all up and through the
Bible. Do you also do streamingfor the church services we
Unknown (33:44):
stream? Oh, yeah, absolutely. You go to Mount Zion
Nashville on YouTube, and if yougo type in mount Zion Nashville
on YouTube, you can watch justany sermon or any service we've
preached the last two, threeyears. It's out there law that
deeper dive, Bible studies Imentioned earlier in this
podcast about the mental healthseries we're getting ready to do
(34:05):
in the month of May. Can log inon any of that. You can watch it
everywhere. So anytimethereafter, you can look at the
different series and just clickand you're right there. You can
watch it live or to be recorded.So hey, have at it. It's there,
and that's free content thatwill be a blessing to you and
yours.
Dr. Raquel Martin (34:21):
Yeah, definitely. So for all those who
are bedside Baptist, you canjust grab your phone guys, and
it doesn't really get the word.I want them everyone to know
where they can actually find youand listen to you. Because not
meant, there's not a there aremore. But if you have someone
who's able to talk about mentalhealth and psychology and
theology, you probably want tolisten to them more so YouTube
as well, y'all, which iseverywhere. And thank you so
(34:44):
much for coming to the show.This was so awesome. Yeah,
Unknown (34:50):
yeah.
Dr. Raquel Martin (34:52):
I was like, Oh, I know I want to do an
episode my spirituality. Gottaget Bishop. It's just, it's very
much within the family, and it.It's amazing. We should I
wonder. I always wonder, like,how Brandon was when Brandon has
been, y'all, for all y'all knowhow he was when he was little.
He said he was in the choir,right? Like, he, yeah,
Unknown (35:11):
yeah, he's in the choir. Very quiet, though he was
always quiet. He was just alwaystired.
Dr. Raquel Martin (35:18):
Yes, I laughed. I was just like, Oh my
goodness. So yeah, but I wouldsay, thank you so much for
coming on the show, and thankyou so much for integrating the
aspect of mental health andpsychology and theology, because
it is very much what peopleneed. And if you you guys don't
get anything from listen to thisepisode, please realize that
it's happening everywhere. Sodon't be afraid to question.
Don't be afraid to ask forresources. And when it comes to
your church and your churchhome, one thing I have always
(35:40):
learned is that pastors andbishops and deacons, they're
listening. So if you feel asthough that's something you
need, say it what's called achurch home, for a reason. It is
another home. So if you feellike you need those services,
let everyone know. All right,yes.
Steve, Hello everyone, and welcome to Mind
your mental just a reminder thatthis podcast is not meant to be
a substitute for a relationshipwith a licensed mental health
professional. I know they arehard to find, and I get that I
have a bunch of resources on mywebsite if you need them, but I
am not your clinician. I am apsychologist, but I am not your
(00:21):
psychologist, so if you need anyspecific help, please look for
the help of a licensed mentalhealth professional. Learn all
you can learn from the podcast.Enjoy the episode. So everyone,
welcome to Mind your mental onthis week's episode, we are
talking about faith andspirituality and religion and
mental health, and today we haveBishop Joseph Warren Walker, the
(00:41):
third who is actually the seniorpastor of Mount Zion Baptist
Church in Nashville, Tennessee,where I reside. I actually went
to this church every singleSunday. I often make the joke
that my father in law, we usedto get picked up from the
shuttle. And I make the jokethat my father in law likely
picked me up at fist and took usto church, and he said it
(01:02):
probably wasn't. So this is,this isn't even just a regular
episode. This is family ties tothis episode. My husband grew up
in this church. Y'all this is,this is. So when I knew I was
having an episode aboutspirituality and faith, I was
like, oh, we gotta get BishopWalker. And not even Bishop
Walker, everybody here, we justcall him Bishop, just like, we
just gotta get Bishop. So BishopWalker, the third serves as the
(01:27):
International Presiding Bishopof the full gospel Baptist
church fellowship. You're bornin Shreveport, Louisiana, which
I didn't know, and you earnedyour bachelor's from Southern
University, a master's indivinity from Vanderbilt
University and a Doctorate fromPrinceton Theological Seminary,
along with three honorarydoctorates. I don't know how you
have the time, because withchurch and your family, with
(01:49):
everything. So since beginninghis pastor at age 24 he's grown
his congregation from 175 toover 30,000 members, including
my family members, and as a bestselling author of 13 books, a
prominent speaker, mediapersonality, a parent on shows
like Ricky smiley radio show andCNN, and serves on several
(02:09):
boards, including the HarryMedical College and Tennessee
State University. Is married toDr Hale, and you are the parents
of two very proud, proud parentsof two children. Welcome to the
show.
Unknown (02:20):
I am so glad to be here. Dr Martin, thank you for
having me. Of course,
Dr. Raquel Martin (02:24):
I always feel like when you talk about mental
health and you talk about wellbeing, you have to talk about
the aspect of spirituality andfaith, because it was such a it
has always been such a stronghold in our community and in
your experience. How do you feellike spirituality contributes to
mental well being, particularlywithin the black community. Hey,
everyone, just a reminder thatmind, your mental is not just a
(02:45):
podcast, it is also a amazingcommunity. If I do say so
myself, it's phenomenal. You getmore access to me. What more
could you want in this life? Soif you want to join the
community, if you're not alreadyon the community, go to my
social media. My social media isthe same Raquel Martin, PhD, and
DM me the word community, so youcan get details on joining this
(03:08):
amazing, flipping community. Youget more access to me. Y'all I'm
a delight. All right. All right.Hope to see you there.
Unknown (03:16):
I think it is central to our experience. I think that
historically, I'm very aware ofa lot of the stigmas associated
with mental health andaddressing it, but I believe
that it has always existed, evenin Bible days, and exist now
more than ever, particularly alot of what we are seeing in our
communities, and what we've seenduring the pandemic,
(03:36):
exacerbation of mental healthissues and etc, the church has
really had to pivot to addressthose issues and help people
navigate that. So I thinkthere's a great intersection
between that faith and mentalhealth, spirituality. Mental
health is something that I'mvery much locked in on as a
faith leader,
Dr. Raquel Martin (03:51):
and I love that. Why? Why do you feel as
though there is so much stigmawhen it comes to mental health?
Because I will say, just assomeone who has attended to
church, I had never felt thatthere was this distinction of
you can have faith or you canhave mental health like that was
never been the case, but thereare some places where it's like
that. Why do you think there'ssome kind of confusion or stigma
about having both within yourlife to have appropriate well
(04:15):
being well?
Unknown (04:15):
I think it comes out of, I think erroneous
theological positioning andposturing and teaching. I think
that a lot of folks haveassociated getting therapy,
working through that as a lackof faith. So we use our faith.
We've weaponized our faith to adegree to say, I'm just going to
believe God for this, or I'm notgoing to accept this, I'm not
(04:36):
going to claim this, I'm notgoing to whatever. But in fact,
we don't realize that Jesusreally was an incredible
therapist, and he helped peoplewalk through their own
situations and several instancesof Scripture, we see it played
out, but I do think it takes agreat deal of intentionality to
see that and and I've writtenabout it, talked about it, and I
think that people have a fear ofone. I think the social stigma
(04:59):
of seeing that there. Therapisthas been well, you crazy or
something wrong with you? That'sthat's in our community, big,
but in the church world, it'swell, you don't have faith. And
that works not only just intherapy, but it works also in
medicine. People don't want totake their medicine because,
well, I'm just believing God. Soit's like helping people
understand that God has theseincredible people of faith in
these areas who can help yousteward your way through these
(05:21):
difficult terrains of life, andso I'm giving you the word, and
they're walking that word outwith you and your own human
experience every single day.Yes, I
Dr. Raquel Martin (05:29):
agree. Can I tell you an incredibly horny
joke that I bet you you'vealready heard, but it's one that
I use. It's one that I use whenindividuals state that they're
like, Oh, I understand. I'mstruggling with this, but I'm
gonna go to church. I don't needboth, right? It's a it's a very
corny joke, but I'm a very cornyjoke person, and you probably
already heard it. Okay, so thereis, and I will legit tell this
(05:50):
every single time someone tellsme that I'm like, right? Let me
tell you a little joke, and youtell me if this resonates with
you. So there it was raining,right? And it was about to
flood, right? And so this guy iswaiting outside his house. And
have you heard this one? Goahead, you have okay. So a guy,
a guy is waiting outside hishouse, and they send like a
(06:10):
ambulance, something like, Oh,let me, let me take you away
from this area because it'sabout to flood. And he said, No,
God's got me, right? So it goesall the way up to, like the the
front steps, and they send likea boat, because you can't even
walk anymore. And you're like,come on. Like, come on, let's
get you to say things off. God'sgot me so it keeps going up, and
he goes to the roof, and ahelicopter comes, and he's no,
God's got me so then it floods,and the the man passes away, and
(06:33):
he goes to heaven, and he's gotwhat? What happened? I thought
you had me. He said, I sent youa and blessed. I sent you a
boat. I sent you a helicopter.You clearly wanted to meet me.
And I always say, I always say,we have psychiatrists, we have
psychologists, we havecounselors, we have clinical
social workers. You believe inGod, don't you believe that he
(06:53):
sent me here to help you? Like,what? Where do you think I came
from? Like, where I just Ididn't just create myself? This
is, oh God, right. And I alwayssay, so Can I schedule you for a
session? Or what are we? Whatare we thinking like when it
comes down to it? And I alwayssay, if you are going to the
same way, I feel like manypeople talk about physical
health, if you are going tohonor the body that God gave you
(07:14):
by taking care of your body, youalso need to take care of your
mind. And they're hand in handon if it's about faith and
spirituality and honoring theGod who put you on this earth.
That also comes with going totherapy and and not seeing it as
like a weapon. Sometimes peoplethrow it like you need therapy,
but I always say, if you deservea space where you are
prioritized, where you arecentered, because we live in
(07:35):
such a busy world, it's so hardto slow down like it's hard to
rethink about what happens oreven process it in the moment.
And that's what therapy does foryou. And I would say, if you're
you're honoring your body toGod, you need to take care of
the body he gave you, correct?Okay,
Unknown (07:52):
particularly, you're right. And I think in the faith
community, as with all things inthe faith community, starts with
the leadership, and it startswith leaders really making it a
priority. And one of the thingsthat I'm very proud of is that
we have given our staff, forexample, what we call Selah, and
it's, it's three or four daysevery quarter. It doesn't, you
know, affect their their paidtime off. It's like, you take
(08:15):
three days, shut down, go totherapists, go to the mountains,
take a mental health break, allof this stuff that's happening,
and other churches around thecountry are recognized the need
to give our teams these selahs,these retreats, these moments to
go and talk to somebody, go andreflect. And I think it's so
important. I think how we how weteach, how we preach, how we
(08:37):
integrate. I always tell myZion. I approach scripture from
a theological, psychological,sociological perspective. I'm
trying to look at what what ishappening in the sociological
community. How is it affectingthat person's mind, and what is
God saying about it all? And Ithink by addressing it that way,
helps people then tap into Wow,okay, I understand that, that I
never see the woman with theissue of blood the same way I
(09:00):
understand the trauma she musthave experienced in isolation,
the trauma of what she mighthave experienced just to pull
herself together, to get toJesus. And Jesus did not just
heal her. He said, Your faithmade you whole, and that is the
ultimate goal. Here to religioncan heal you, if you in a sense,
but it's really the therapistand the and the marriage between
(09:22):
the two that can make a personwhole. So I
Dr. Raquel Martin (09:25):
love that the marriage, yeah, who else do what
you do? Like, I love the factyou mentioned the marriage
between the two can makeindividuals whole. And it sounds
like when it comes to stigmawithin mental health, you're
able to address it head on bystating, often, like, these are
things that we look into. Arethere any other ways that you
feel as though is helpful, orthat your church does to address
(09:46):
stigmas when it comes to mentalhealth and also support those
who are seeking help? Yeah,yeah. So
Unknown (09:51):
obviously we have actually, in the month of May
every year, our entire deeperdive Bible study is dedicated to
mental health, so folks can goon to. Outside Nashville, and
look at and it's always going tolive there. And we every single
Wednesday Bible study, we havetherapists on teaching about
various aspects of mentalhealth, walking through grief,
(10:11):
walking through trauma, and ourpastor of congregational care is
doing those conversations. Andit's a powerful we get five
weeks just on mental healthteaching and Bible study. We
have also, through church fit,which is our health and wellness
program my wife leads, that wehave mental health Mondays. We
have resources to provide forthe congregation on resources to
(10:35):
tap into. Shameless plug, I'vewritten a book restored at the
root, and this book is aboutgetting to the source of
emotional, spiritual struggle.And I, God spoke to me once, and
I was working on the sermonabout this. And I say that to
say they use this as smallgroups. I worked. I worked on
the sermon about man Jesus meetsin the tombs. And the Bible says
(10:57):
that Jesus needs to be cuttinghimself, and he's, he's out
there harming himself, harminghimself. He has a demon, and
Jesus walks up to him and says,What is your name? And it was
there that God spoke to me andsays, This is what therapy
starts. I said, Well, hold on,God. Later, I just want to
preach about you healing andwhat is your name. And Jesus,
(11:19):
nobody had ever asked in hisname, Doctor Raquel. Everybody
looked at his condition. Andwhen Jesus asked him his name,
you know what he says, We areLegion. We are many, and there
in lies the issue. We are easilyjudging and diagnosing what we
see at the surface. But thereare layers of Legion that is
(11:43):
contributing to certainbehaviors. And I was suggesting
to the congregation that whenyou see a person acting out a
particular way, if you take timeand help them walk through
therapy and do the real rootwork, you might discover that
the reason why this person isacting out at 18, or the child
is acting out at 16. Becausemaybe you should go back to when
(12:05):
they were six. Maybe if you goback to the experiences and
recognize it's not just onedemon we're addressing. We're
addressing multiple. And I saythis is what happens in
dysfunctional church, while youhave people at the altar every
Sunday, didn't I just pray foryou and your back? Because what
keeps showing up is a differentmanifestation of Legion. Yeah.
(12:27):
So I could cast out alcoholism,but I did not cast out
abandonment. I did not deal withthe rejection, I did not deal
with the abuse. And so that'swhy having me to pray for you
and then get you up off of yourface and say, now go talk to
this person. Is what helps,because what you do is get to
the root work. And people don'twant the root work is the hard
(12:50):
work. Lay your hands on me,Pastor, let me that's the easy
part. But when you get up, Ineed you to go and talk to
Doctor Raquel. So
Dr. Raquel Martin (13:05):
you know, you I often say, like, people
mention, like, coping skills,right? And they'll be like, Oh,
I'll do the breathing exercisesand the stuff. And I'm just
like, I want you to understandthat you're just waving at
branches at this point. Youunderstand it'll help you in the
moment. But just like youmentioned, well, I was at the
pulpit last Sunday. I did seeyou there for the sake. So
(13:25):
what's what's happening? It'sbecause it's the root work is
it's, it's, it's tough. I justdid a post the other day about,
like, when it comes to therapy,good therapy, you should think
about it like a washing machine,like it's supposed to agitate,
like it's supposed to it bringsup these things that you didn't
even acknowledge. And I'll sayto my patients, I'm like, You
came here for one thing. Spoileralert, I guarantee you we gonna
come up with three or four morethings, and that's because this
(13:47):
brings up stuff that you didn'tknow you needed to do. But the
branch work that's easy,teaching someone a couple coping
skills and them using it, that'sfantastic. That's a branch,
though. The root is we need toget to the source of why every
single time we have theseconcerns regarding the
relationships. Or do you get tothis place of a of a good
relationship? There's someaspect of self sabotage. Where
does that come from? Like,where? Where does it come from
(14:08):
that you feel unworthy becausethese scenarios, I'm honest with
you, you sabotage thisrelationship. We were good last
week, and this week you said,Well, I had to move out. What?
So we need to get to the rootof, okay, like we've been
working together for a year, andthis is relationship three, and
I'm be honest with you, you maynot see the pattern. I do.
(14:29):
There's something that's goingon and it's a root thing, and
the coping skills and thebreathing that's not going to
get to why, and some, in someaspect, you feel unworthy of
this relationship and they'resabotaging. So it does have to
go hand in hand. I find that. Ifind that, like you, I don't see
many churches having an issuewith this thus far, like at all.
I think that we've gotten to aplace where people are getting
(14:50):
more comfortable discussingtherapy, especially I teach at
tsu, when I tell you this dude,it's like a normal it could be
like, Oh, I had a soda, went totherapy. Let me. Tell you what
my therapist said, and I'm like,wow, this is not,
Unknown (15:09):
no, not at
Dr. Raquel Martin (15:10):
all. And they'll be very open, yeah, my
therapist, that's amazing.That's amazing. Yeah,
Unknown (15:17):
yeah, Main Street becoming mainstream. It's become
mainstream. And I think, also, Ithink you're seeing a lot of
leaders. That is the one that Ihave any influence over. I teach
you all time, like you have toaddress a look at I have a group
of folks, for example, that Itake on this retreat, and we
study scripture, and we like,these are pastors. And I like,
okay, look at this text. Tellwhat you see. Look at a text and
(15:39):
say, I want, I want you to seethe psychological and
theological. Let's deal withthat. So why? Because it's
psychological. I said becausethis is a therapy issue. And we
look at Scripture that way, itjust comes alive. So we look at
this text one day and Jesus seeshis father, who brings his son
to Jesus to the disciples, andsays, I took my son to your
disciples, and they could nothelp him, because he throws
(15:59):
himself on the ground, bogglingbones at the mouth, he's pencied
All this stuff, right? That's aclear case study to somebody
like you, right? Because, Jesus,no, Jesus, then the father says,
I have brought him to youbecause your disciples could
not, meaning your church couldnot help him. So Jesus, what
will you do? So Jesus, then, islike giving a case study on how
(16:22):
to address a situation like thistrauma. And guess what? Jesus
says, He raises a question, justlike he did with the man of the
tombs. He says, How long has hebeen like this? And the father
is forced to be accountable andsay, since he was a child. And
after the father says that, thenthe father says, If you can do
(16:45):
anything, have mercy on us.Because the fact that he said it
with his mouth, that it's beenthis way since he's a child, he
took ownership that perhaps whatis wrong with my son is what's
wrong with me. So I initiallywas bringing my son to you, but
we both need your help.
Dr. Raquel Martin (17:06):
And you know what? That's how a lot of family
sessions go. Like, a lot oftimes I had scenarios when I was
in training and we would havesupposed to be doing like a like
a child session, and they'd belike, Oh, here's my child. I'll
be back in 50 minutes. And Isaid, like, I was like, whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa, that's that'snot it. Oh, hey, yeah, I
(17:26):
mentioned the whole aspect of,if you bring a child to therapy,
surprise, like it, it has to bethat sense, because if you're
their most salient relationship,right? Like when it comes to
caregivers, you're their mostsalient relationship. And it's
like, when I'm working withpatients, and they're like, I'll
never forget, I had a couple ofsessions where it was family
(17:47):
therapy, but it was a mom andthe grandmom and the child,
because that was the othercaregiver in the home. They
resided with the with thegrandma. And first, we just
started off with the mom and shewe mentioned stuff to go by and
things to work together. Andthey were like, Oh, I tried to
do this, but my mom didn't wantto do it. Or I would try to do
this, and I was trying toconvince my mom, and she said to
do it this way. And I'm like,Well, you you have to
(18:09):
acknowledge the fact that yourmom is a salient caregiver as
well. So if this is going towork, your mom has to be this
has been your mom is, your momis involved in this session too,
because she's a salientcaregiver. And if she How is she
expected to try new strategies,if she doesn't even understand
where they're coming from, howis she expected to contribute to
the growth of this child and asa result of this family, if
(18:29):
you're not bringing her tosession like, this is her, this
is her session too. And she'sjust, well, I just thought it
would just be me, and I'm like,it seems like this, you guys are
a whole entire unit. And what Iexplained to them when they came
to session as you guys are coparenting. And I know very much
it seems like co parenting istypically, which is solely the
the parents of the child, butI'm like, You're a salient
caregiver. You were co you'reyou're co parenting with your
(18:51):
with your mother. That's what itis. So to not have her in
session, it's not gonna it's notgonna work. What happens to the
child will impact therelationship that the child has
with themselves, with theteachers, with their grandma,
with their mom. And to get tothe real root, you have to think
of, you think of roots, and youthink of lineage too. This is a
family affair. It's a familylike it's a family affair. You
(19:11):
had to bring it in, and it hasso much more progress. And I
love the fact that you, I'll behonest, I've never heard I live
in you anyone tie in the aspectof theology and psychology, and
it's very evident that it's ifit's immersed in you, it's
immersed in your entire churchhome. And I feel like that that
is amazing. If you if, whatadvice would you give for
(19:32):
individuals who haven'tintegrated it this way in their
church homes? Like, how canthese partnerships be formed?
Or, if they're there and they'renot being utilized
appropriately, how can thesepartnerships and collaborations
between mental healthprofessionals and spiritual
leaders be strengthened so thatyou're you're giving a strong
bedrock of your your church?
Unknown (19:52):
Yeah, I think, I think, I think first of all, you would
have to develop a culture withinyour congregation of teaching it
and and having more. Despitebeing aware of when mental
health awareness month arehighlighting those things and
resources, and making yourchurch aware that you are a
trusted partner in thecommunity, and letting partners
know, therapists know, youprobably have folks in your
(20:14):
congregation who are full timetherapists, people who do this
work every single day, Andrew aswell, and maybe creating a
database, creating anopportunity that we've done in
our ministry, greatly broken itdown, where people could
actually go in online and figureout various resources and things
of that nature, and find outwhat people are doing. And there
are organizations andindividuals and things like, for
example, I was very honest manyyears ago after going through
(20:36):
the trauma of the death of aspouse, and I talked about how
guilders club walk me throughthat. And I was, you know, I
didn't go. There's pastor Walkerwith this Joseph and how those
folks nurtured me through ingroup counseling. There's a
variety of differentorganizations that are doing
great work, and you have toexpose your congregation of
those things so that the burdendoesn't just fall on you alone,
being a trusted partner. And Ithink really looking at how to
(20:59):
approach scripture and teachingdifferently, because I think it
just, it's so much content inScripture for me that I just
every everything I look at, I'malways like, eager to get to
what is happening in the psycheof this person. How does God
reconcile? How does God it'seasy to say, you know that Moses
(21:22):
is dead and Joshua, take thesepeople, but you're going to deal
with the trauma of the grief ofpeople that knew Moses. You're
going to deal with when oneseason is over, deal with the
cacophony that's exemplifiedwith the scripture you couldn't
tell the voice of those whorejoicing and those who are
weeping. That's this. You have alot of that happening in our
congregation right now. Peopleright now, in this cacophony
(21:46):
about what's happening inculture, people are excited
about maybe what might behappening in their personal
lives and what's happening. Andyou got all these social issues,
people nervous about theselection and all these
different things. So you'll knowwho's shouting because they
happy, who shout because they'renervous. You don't really know,
how do you delineate that andallow people? And I think it, I
think one of the things that Ithink that is has really blessed
(22:10):
me one, one moment, God woke meup like two in the morning,
right? And really had me in myface, praying for not just my
congregation, before thecommunity, and really shared
with me that the community atthe time in which this happened
was in communal lament. And itwas, it was a moment I never
thought about communal lament,like all the different things
(22:32):
that were going on at that time,between covid, between what we
saw with social justice stuff,and it was like you're going to
have to allow people space tomourn, to walk through this, and
we amplified our resources inthat season to help provide
opportunities for people to togrieve and to lament, and you
(22:54):
have to acknowledge that youjust can't keep going on saying
the Lord's going to make a way.Lord's going to make a way, he's
going to make a way. But I gottaget to the way first. So,
Dr. Raquel Martin (23:05):
yeah, what you're talking about is
something that often comes upwhen it comes in mental health,
and it's spiritual bypassing,which is the thought process of
the use of spiritual practicesand beliefs to avoid dealing
with painful feelings orunresolved wounds or even
developmental needs, using yourspirituality to escape from
facing emotional andpsychological issues. Because
(23:26):
even when you mentioned, like,God's gonna make a way, you said
it very good. Well, you gottamake your way. Not gonna you're
gonna just be like, Oh, here yougo. I'm gonna shine a light on
this. And like that happens sooften. What do you How would you
identify if someone werelistening to this? What would
you say are like, some signswhere, if you were talking to
someone and you'd be like, itseems to me that you are using
(23:49):
your spirituality to try tosidestep dealing with this. What
were some signs that you wouldsee?
Unknown (23:55):
I love that. I love that. And of course, Dr Anita
Phillips, in her book, dealswith that head on right and this
idea, and I would say to them,what she says, it's okay to let
the water flow. Why are we? Whyare we trying to just bypass
this moment? Pause, Stop, stopwith it. I and it really. I deal
(24:15):
with it because I'm a bishop,and so therefore, as a bishop,
you pass the pastors. So you'dbe amazed at how many pastors
are programmed to just say, Youknow what, this is happening,
that's happening, but you knowwhat, man, guys, I'm just going
to trust God like I pause, yeah.Let's just pause. Let's just let
(24:36):
this flow. You are clogging upthe garden. Let's, let's, it's
okay, you don't have to bypassthis. And I think often the
reason why we bypass it'sbecause one, we try to appear a
Herculean in our faith that weare, two, because we are
concerned about the perceptionof people viewing us as weak and
vulnerable. And three, we don'thave any places we can be
vulnerable and be trusted withthat. But I think that that's
(24:58):
why it's important to just. Usfrom the top, create a culture
and a climate by which peoplecould say it's okay to It's
okay. You don't have to, like,Be the hero. And I've said it
every funeral. I say this is thefamily. It's okay to grieve. You
don't have to be the hero. Iknow you want to be the rock for
everybody and be strong. Andpeople tell you you'll get over
(25:19):
no own this moment. Job went hismantle. Job cried out to God
when he lost all his children.Job grieved. And grief is a
process. David did not runthrough the valley. He walked
through
Dr. Raquel Martin (25:37):
the valley. And you know what makes me think
about that? I always feel asthough there are sometimes when
people feel like grief, as theymay feel, not the pain or the
feelings associated with that,or the possible questioning they
may feel shame or guilt withthat, making it feel as though,
like they're they don't havetheir faith in God, and I think
that's why some people run awayfrom it, because it's just well,
(25:58):
does this mean that I'm notclose? I'm not close enough. Am
I not doing what I should bedoing? Faith wise, and I'm
always when it came to like, myfaith and my spirituality, I've
always come at it from both endsof spirituality and religion and
also the intellectual aspects.And I remember having a
conversation with someone andthey mentioned like me being so
inquisitive. And they were like,that's not really, you can't
(26:20):
really question anything. Isaid, Oh, I wholeheartedly
disagree, because you, I thinkmy faith is stronger because I
read and do all this andquestion and still believe. And
you, on the other end, you feelas though your faith is stronger
because you haven't you're tooafraid to test it. I was like, I
wholeheartedly disagree, becauseI very much believe that being
(26:42):
educated and having thequestions and getting the
answers to the questions andstill having the faith, that is
faith, not the aspect of I'm notgonna, I'm not gonna question
anything. Well, don't, don't youthink that the fact that I do
love science and look ateverything and still have my
faith is that not a testament tohow strong my faith is there's
nothing wrong with beinginquisitive, and I think people
(27:04):
during significant aspects ofpain and grief maybe they ran
away from because I don't wantto question what happened. I
don't want to feel too bad,because I don't want it to seem
as though I don't believe inGod. And I always think that,
like my inquisitiveness, mypersistence, me being a huge
nerd, if anything, thatstrengthens my faith, because I
can read everything and be like,yep, still believe. Look at all
(27:24):
the everything and be like,yeah, the faith is still there.
It's still there. Like itdoesn't. If anything, I've
always stated that that makes memy faith is stronger because
it's just I was blessed enoughto be given this brain and to be
given this inquisitiveness. Andevery single time I'm like, Who
do you think gave this? Everytime people say that I'm like,
where do you think this comesfrom? Okay, there was an idea of
(27:45):
me before my parents were evenhere. I know where this comes
from. I use it. I use it well. Iuse the gifts that are given to
me. That's my brain. And if myfaith is still there,
transformed by
Unknown (27:56):
the redoing of it, don't exactly so, yeah,
absolutely.
Dr. Raquel Martin (28:01):
I very much encourage people. I think
sometimes they feel like theweakness will be like, am I
questioning the Lord? And just,I don't think God ever said
don't do that. It's just like,Yeah, take time with it. Do you
have any specific advice thatyou would give to someone who is
struggling but they may behesitant to seek both spiritual
and professional help? Whatwould you say to those
(28:21):
individuals, because I'm surethey're just like you mentioned
when you mentioned communitylamenting, it's just a difficult
time, I very Yeah, I would be. Idon't think it's possible for me
not to find anyone who is isn'tstruggling with anything because
it's such a difficult time. Whatwould you say to individuals who
are struggling and they're stillhesitant to seek both spiritual
(28:42):
and professional help. Yeah,
Unknown (28:44):
I would say it's not an unfamiliar place. You're not by
yourself. If you feel that way,there are a lot of people that
have that struggle. I think it'smoments like this. If you're
listening to this, you realizethat here you have before you a
faith leader, you have atherapist who work together in
tandem, to say that there arethere are faith communities that
will not judge you, that havecreated safe spaces for you to
(29:07):
work out your questions withGod, that we're not intimidated
because you have questions. Ihave questions with God. I've
experienced trauma. It's createdempathy for me, for people who
along their journey. And so Ithink that whatever you are in
life, whatever your status,whatever you're dealing with,
it's important that you don'tdeal with it by yourself. You
would never intended to do lifealone, but in community, and
(29:28):
that's where the faith communitycomes. But then please know that
our strong recommendation thatwe have to give you the
foundational principles of God'sWord, which we believe are
powerful and organic and helpyou to move in faith. Faith
without works is dead, and thework is doing the real work
every single day of talking to atherapist to walk through it is
(29:50):
something that you will beencouraged to do, and I think
it's courageous of you to do it,because it allows you to say,
Hey, I am working on me, andit's okay to have a. Cessation
of all the work and do all thethings. I'll put it to you like
this, my car, one day was out ofalignment, and I was trying to
drive it, but it kept pulling.It kept pulling until I realized
(30:12):
I had to go get an alignment.And sometimes in life, you can
be trying to get to yourdestination, and you can feel
that poor, like I'm not myself,I'm not in alignment. And what I
had to do is realize I had tostop the car, take it to a
mechanic, walk away from it, letthem jack it up, let them change
out the tires. You cannot drivea car and get it aligned at the
(30:33):
same time. And there's a momentyou gotta step away and say, I
gotta stop all this rat race,and I have to make certain that
I let somebody else bring somealignment in this so that I can
be more efficient and moreeffective getting in my
destination. Amen. I
Dr. Raquel Martin (30:50):
bet y'all didn't know y'all was getting a
word today too. Did you? Youthought you were in the podcast
episode? We got a double whammytoday, y'all. Amen. I think it's
so important to just reiterate,Bishop say, God is not afraid of
your questions, you will besurprised. You you'll be
surprised. How many timespeople, actually, I hear that, a
lot people being surprised withmy faith. It's such an
(31:12):
intellectual I'm like, Oh yeah,that's why I got my faith.
That's weird. What you talkabout. They they go hand in
hand. So like, God is not afraidof your questions, the church
should not be afraid of yourquestions. Of your questions.
And it is courageous to seekhelp, because you do have to.
You gotta dig up those roots.And let me tell you something,
they they're gnarled half thetime. You afraid be like, Oh, I
did not, I forgot about that.And it's courageous to decide to
(31:35):
work on yourself, because we dooperate in a community. I always
state that therapy is one, canbe one pathway to healing, but
therapy, you don't need therapyheal. In my opinion, it's one
pathway. You do need communitylike you cannot, you cannot grow
or heal in isolation. It'sinteresting for Frederick,
federal stage mentioned, likeduring therapy. He said that if
you're not in therapies and youdon't really challenge your way
(31:57):
of thinking often, unless youhave a space to do it. A lot of
people just go on and they'rejust like, this is the right
way. And these therapy makes youchallenge, evolve your thought
process to be like, andafterwards you'll be like, Man,
is this how I was living? Isthis because you Why would you
challenge if you don't, if youdon't have someone to help you
challenge, if you don't have anobjective person, like, it's,
it's, it's, it's very much theaspect of questioning. And I
(32:20):
think that's that's amazing.Well, Bishop Walker, tell
everybody where they can findyou in all of your you had so
one you could find themchurches, 13 books, y'all best
selling ones. And what was themost recent one that you the one
that you just looked it up,recent book
Unknown (32:36):
The most well, this is restored at the root and
restored at the root. I thinkit's like number number 11 and
restore the root number 12 is mymental health book. It's the
intersection between faith andand mental health. And then the
last book I've written, which isanother book that deals with the
same thing, a differentcapacity, leadership and
loneliness, yes, and space. Andyou can find though, you can
(32:58):
find me at Joseph Walker threeorg. That's my website. Joseph
Walker three org. You follow meon Instagram at Joseph Walker
three or ministry, go out thereon Mount Zion, Nashville on
YouTube. Check out. End of themessage. I have a series I did
struggling with God, and this isabout the questions we have for
God, and God can handle thosequestions. And it's about people
(33:18):
being in those those mentalhealth spaces and how God worked
them through that. Elijah was ata place of suicide, and how God
brought him back from that. Andso those are things that we
enjoy teaching. We help people,and we look forward to just how
we can be a blessing to you.
Dr. Raquel Martin (33:33):
Yes, I really appreciate the fact of sharing
just specifics about like mentalhealth is all up and through the
Bible. Do you also do streamingfor the church services we
Unknown (33:44):
stream? Oh, yeah, absolutely. You go to Mount Zion
Nashville on YouTube, and if yougo type in mount Zion Nashville
on YouTube, you can watch justany sermon or any service we've
preached the last two, threeyears. It's out there law that
deeper dive, Bible studies Imentioned earlier in this
podcast about the mental healthseries we're getting ready to do
(34:05):
in the month of May. Can log inon any of that. You can watch it
everywhere. So anytimethereafter, you can look at the
different series and just clickand you're right there. You can
watch it live or to be recorded.So hey, have at it. It's there,
and that's free content thatwill be a blessing to you and
yours.
Dr. Raquel Martin (34:21):
Yeah, definitely. So for all those who
are bedside Baptist, you canjust grab your phone guys, and
it doesn't really get the word.I want them everyone to know
where they can actually find youand listen to you. Because not
meant, there's not a there aremore. But if you have someone
who's able to talk about mentalhealth and psychology and
theology, you probably want tolisten to them more so YouTube
as well, y'all, which iseverywhere. And thank you so
(34:44):
much for coming to the show.This was so awesome. Yeah,
Unknown (34:50):
yeah.
Dr. Raquel Martin (34:52):
I was like, Oh, I know I want to do an
episode my spirituality. Gottaget Bishop. It's just, it's very
much within the family, and it.It's amazing. We should I
wonder. I always wonder, like,how Brandon was when Brandon has
been, y'all, for all y'all knowhow he was when he was little.
He said he was in the choir,right? Like, he, yeah,
Unknown (35:11):
yeah, he's in the choir. Very quiet, though he was
always quiet. He was just alwaystired.
Dr. Raquel Martin (35:18):
Yes, I laughed. I was just like, Oh my
goodness. So yeah, but I wouldsay, thank you so much for
coming on the show, and thankyou so much for integrating the
aspect of mental health andpsychology and theology, because
it is very much what peopleneed. And if you you guys don't
get anything from listen to thisepisode, please realize that
it's happening everywhere. Sodon't be afraid to question.
Don't be afraid to ask forresources. And when it comes to
your church and your churchhome, one thing I have always
(35:40):
learned is that pastors andbishops and deacons, they're
listening. So if you feel asthough that's something you
need, say it what's called achurch home, for a reason. It is
another home. So if you feellike you need those services,
let everyone know. All right,yes.
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