The Impact of Media Portrayal on Black Love ft Dr. Marcus Mason

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Raquel Martin (00:00):
Steve, Hello everyone, and welcome to Mind
your mental just a reminder thatthis podcast is not meant to be
a substitute for a relationshipwith a licensed mental health
professional. I know they arehard to find, and I get that I
have a bunch of resources on mywebsite if you need them, but I
am not your clinician. I am apsychologist, but I am not your

(00:21):
psychologist. So if you need anyspecific help, please look for
the help of a licensed mentalhealth professional. Learn all
you can learn from the podcast.Enjoy the episode. All right,
everybody. Welcome to mind yourmental podcast today, we are
joined by Dr Marcus Mason, whois a Licensed Clinical
Professional Counselor with over12 years of experience,
specializing in youth and adulttherapy. He holds degrees in

(00:42):
child and adolescent studies andcounseling psychology and
currently teaches in thegraduate program. You're at
Bowie Correct? I'm

Unknown (00:49):
Bowie State,

yes, I never knew how to pronounce that
right. Okay, so, because I'mjust saying, I'm just saying,
like, it's spelled Bowie, okay.Like, can we agree? Like,

Unknown (01:01):
Bowie spelled?

Bowie,

Unknown (01:04):
but you don't say okay, you say boots,

okay. But if I don't have, if I'm not wearing
a long tie and I'm wearing ashorter the ties that go around
your neck, what's that called?What's it? What's that look
like? What's that called?

Unknown (01:15):
Dang, I'm losing it.

Is it a bow tie?

Unknown (01:19):
It's a bow tie? Oh, no, I

don't think so. I don't think

Unknown (01:24):
so I might be okay.

So, yeah, so, like, I'm just every single time
I'm like, Billy, I don't thinkthat's right. You can't be
pronouncing that right. Like, Iknow you guys are alumni, but,
like, I get that you also hold adoctoral degree in Educational
Leadership and Management fromDrexel University. That's what's
up. I'm from Philly, and hefounded minded motion

(01:48):
Therapeutic Services promotingmental health, physical health
integration under the motto,move better, feel better, think
better, dedicated to servingblack men and underserved
demographic and mental health.And for all those out there,
when you go to the page, justlike I mentioned, Rashawn, like,
also has, like, mental health,third straps, so does so does

(02:08):
minds in motion, therapeuticservices, y'all, so go for the
infant. I'm just saying. I saidthe same thing to Rashawn, and I
would be remiss if I didn't saythe same thing to you. I'm
sorry. Like, I couldn't just dothat to him. You too. Good job.
That's good marketing. I'm notgonna lie. Like having like this
is how it goes. Y'all like youzooming in and it's all these
black guys in suits. Come on.They don't care about the

(02:29):
therapy. Hey, everyone, just areminder that mind. Your mental
is not just a podcast. It isalso a amazing community. If I
do say so myself, it'sphenomenal. You get more access
to me. What more could you wantin this life? So if you want to
join the community, if you'renot already on the community, go
to my social media. My socialmedia is the same Raquel Martin,

(02:51):
PhD, and DM me the wordcommunity, so you can get
details on joining this amazing,flipping community. You get more
access to me. Y'all like, I'm adelight. All right. All right.
Hope to see you there, but youshould care about the therapy.
When I saw that, I was like, Yo,that is a good market. Okay, I
see what y'all did there. I'm

Unknown (03:11):
just learning from somebody as great as you. That's
it. I'm just learning from

you. You did it better than me, because I'm
just like, watch how many peopleare going to be like, I need
help. I need help you. And Ilike, what kind of help me
talking here? Like, what are wedoing?

Unknown (03:24):
Which level we are we discussing? What

are we discussing? But yeah, thanks for
coming on the show. I love thefact that your entire practice
is black man, and it's dedicatedto black men, because you're
right. It is incrediblyunderserved demographic when it
comes to mental health and allhealth. Honestly, in my opinion,

Unknown (03:42):
I think that I know one thing I tell people all the time
is they discuss or they have,oh, well, it's just so many
black men. And I'm like, Yeah,but like, have you seen it
happen before? Like, is there athing of another practice? Yeah,
similar to that, right? Like, wehave coalitions, typically, but
just pushing this idea that it'sokay for us to take up space,
and even if it's not okay, wecan still take up the space. So
let's do that. Like, that's beena big push for me when I started

(04:03):
the organization,

when you went into decide when you went to
school and stuff, did you knowthat you wanted to focus on
black men in particular, or wereyou more like, I know I want to
do therapy, but I don't knowexactly who I want to focus

Unknown (04:14):
on. I was not as clear as I was when I graduated, when
I started. I just wanted to goto school, because I heard if
you want to be in the mentalhealth field, you gotta go back
to school. Went back thenrecognized, of course, that's
where you're gonna get the mostmoney you can be able to do
private practice, self pay,insurance, all that kind of
thing. When I graduated, Irealized that I went back to
school, or, as I was in aprogram, rather, I went back to
school because I wanted to beable to support people that were

(04:35):
like me when I was younger, andI was looking for support. And I
was like, in that mid 20s, justearly and mid 20s, where you
just making certain decisions,you just need somebody to be
like, Yo, like, I don't know,like, let's really sit back. And
I recognize that, like a lot ofmy mentees and a lot of like
students that were under me, andjust like high school students
and middle school students, theydidn't have somebody that looked
like them to be able to offerthem the clinical feedback as

(04:58):
they were going through certainsituations. Like. That were
culturally based or just similarto, like, demographic and
socioeconomic status and allthose types of things. So when I
graduated, I realized, I said,Oh, I'm black men through and
through. So that's what I needto work with, and black boys,
and of course, our women and ourladies, that's

what's up. Did you always know that you
were gonna have a practice fullof black men, though, like when
you started? Did you not know

Unknown (05:21):
that was, that was not the goal was to have a cool
little side practice and do yourthing and stay out the way.
Yeah. And I think that once themarketing kind of took off when
covid hit, everybody needed alevel of support. I think when
covid hit, so it mental healthincreased, which is a good
thing, in theory, but it waslike, overwhelming, like people
were like, oh, I need to talk toyou. I need to talk to you. And
I was just like, I can't do thisby myself. Yeah. So then that's

(05:43):
when I started realizing, andlike, having conversations with
other individuals, they weresaying, like, Are you willing?
Are you going to push to getlicensed? Because that's the
whole thing we I think sometimesin this field, whether it's
social work, CounselingPsychology, whatever it is the
there are people that kind ofget stagnated at that licensure
stage, because it just like, ohyeah, test and the money and the
requirements and the hours, solike, pushed all my people was

(06:06):
like, Yo, like, let's do it.Let's do it. And then they
follow through, came through,and they're doing amazing work.
I think better than me. I tellpeople all the time, I think
sometimes they're better thanme. I'm just the facilitator,
but they're the ones that arereally getting it done. How many
men are in your practice rightnow? We have nine, and that
includes two interns. So again,even with like my interns, I'm
trying to pull I'm not trying. Iam pulling them up because I

(06:27):
would have loved the supervisorthat not gonna say like me, but
a supervisor that had that levelof Safe Space culturally, my
supervision was not as I had ahad an older white guy, and he
told me flat out, like, hey, butyour population is too specific.
You're not gonna make no money.Say less, just watch. So now my
goal is to be able to pullpeople up in that master's
program when they're in apractical internship. Come

(06:49):
highlight me. Come stay here.See what that feels like. Give
you some culturally competentsupervision, and then you can
either stay or you can go my Iwould love for all of my people
to go and start their ownpractices and then do the same
thing like I want to be able toreach it and span out.

That's what's up. I never had a black club,
black a black supervisor either.I very much had to, like, use
the tools afforded to me andlearn on the job. And would have
it would have been amazing if Ihad one when I was in training.
So this means, just forclarification, black men do go
to therapy, huh? Like, theyactually do attend.

Unknown (07:18):
It's crazy, because I tell people all the time, people
always ask me, like, well, like,what's your like average like
client? I'm like, well, one,there's no average client. But
if you had to ask me, I've, Itell them, I have the CEO C
suite people, and I have thepeople that you would cross the
street because you are a littleuncomfortable for whatever
feelings you got going on. And Ihave the people in between. I

(07:41):
they all, everybody goes totherapy. Black men go to
therapy, all ages, all ranges,all different
intersectionalities. It's notthis like taboo thing that black
men don't go to therapy. Theyjust want to save space when
they do go. So we have to createthat

other than like stigma, because I know
stigma is always a thing when itcomes to therapy. What are what
was going to say? What are somethings that also probably get in
the way of more black men goingto therapy? Because I get the
stigma aspect of it, but I thinkthat there are even more people
out there talking about it andthings like that. I think
there's things other than stigmagetting in the way. What else
would you think gets in a way ofhaving, not having, more black

(08:16):
men in your office or otherpeople's offices when it comes
to mental health? I

Unknown (08:20):
think a big thing I was talking to my friend about this
a couple of weeks ago was thisidea that people have the kind
of pre assumed understanding onwhat's going to happen when they
get to therapy. And evenespecially with like couples
work, a lot of times I havecouples that have come in and
that either from their own livedexperiences in the past or what
they have assumed from like, TV,they just automatically assume

(08:42):
that, like, you're always gonnabe on the other person's side,
no matter who it is. You're justnot gonna be on my side as the
man in the relationship, andspecifically as a black man, I'm
always the one doing somethingwrong. So that, like, mindset
break comes into the session andit's like, well, I'm not. I
don't really want to be here forreal, because I already know
you're gonna pick this side. Areyou gonna? Like, ain't no point
me doing this. And if I do comeI'ma say it. I'm gonna be quiet,
I'm gonna be respectful, and I'mgonna walk out the door, right?

(09:03):
So, yeah, I think a big thing isthis idea that when you do come
to therapy, that you won't beheard, you won't be seen, you
won't be respected, you'll betold that you're the one that's
incorrect all the time. Butagain, dispelling that looks
like giving it a try and havingconversations like I have people
now, a couple of couples thatI'm working with, and that's I
tell them, I'm not on eithery'all side. I'm on the
relationship side. So whetheryou're wrong or you wrong, or

(09:26):
you right or you right, we justgo had a conversation. We go
explore it. And again, it's notabout what's right and what's
wrong, it's about what makessense for you both individually,
but then as a collective whole.And that has been typically
pretty receptive from my maleclients that have been in
couples work, but just myindividual clients, they always
say, like, I've never hadsomebody I could just talk to in
like, layman's terms. Like, Idon't I'm trying to have all the

(09:48):
big jargon. I'm not trying tojust sit down and I get my whole
feelings out and then all of asudden you tell me, have a good
day. Like, black men don'ttypically respond well to that.
That's not really our like,like, our thing, right? Like.
Sometimes we want to just ventand get it out, but a lot of
times, because I think of how wewere raised, just in general, we
typically are looking forsomething like actionable like,

(10:08):
what am I supposed to do withwhat I just said? Like, how can
we work through this? Like, do Iget homework? Should I be
thinking about this before ournext session? Like, all those
types of things. So being ableto provide them with, like,
different actionable techniquesand interventions while they're
in the session, after thesession, and then checking in
usually helps to kind of havepeople want to come back,
nobody, well, not nobody, but alot of men that I work with

(10:29):
don't want to just vent. Theywant to vent, but then they want
to find a solution and thenprocess whatever they're feeling
as they're finding the solution.So we can do all the above, but
we got to create that spaceforward.

Okay, so you want things that are like, more
tangible, correct? And assomeone who's working in couples
space, because I think a lot ofpeople miss, misunderstand it
just to like the way youmentioned, it's just like, it's
not like, it's me, and it's notyou guys against each other,
it's both of you against theproblem, right, right? So like,
you get to see the perspectiveof couples that are seeing a

(11:01):
problem separately. Do younotice any big differences
between like, it'll be onescenario and trends among the
way men may see the scenarioversus trends among the way
women may see the same scenarioand your objective? So you're
able to see like, Okay, this isactually pretty typical. You're
seeing. The problem is this.They're seeing the problem is
this. Do you ever notice anytrends between like, many women
in the way they may tear apartsituations or see them, or

(11:23):
anything like that.

Unknown (11:25):
I would say a couple of things. Is one communication,
like, I tell people all thetime, communication is always
going to be like, You got greatcommunication. And then when
stuff goes south, everybody's noholds barred, right? But this
idea that when things do occurand when things are coming up,
there's a problem that arisesmen. And I want to generalize,

(11:45):
but I'll say many men typicallylook for a solution to solve the
problem, and the the othersignificant other, or Yeah, the
other significant othertypically wants to maybe feel it
a little bit more and and sitwith that a little bit more, and
then you get this weird dynamicwhere I'm trying to solve the
problem for you, so you don'tfeel this, but you're telling

(12:07):
me, I'm not listening to whatyour emotions are. And I'm like,
Well, if I can solve the problemnow, it takes away your emotions
moving forward. But you don'twant that just yet. You want to
be able to feel the emotions,process, the emotions, go
through it with it, with yourpartner, and then you want a
solution, right? And I've seenthat happen a couple of times,
well, not a couple a lot oftimes when it comes to like, big
disagreements or big argumentsthat just they're not on the
same page, not because they'renot trying to work together, but

(12:30):
because step one for one personis not the same as step one for
the other person. And we gottastart at step one. We're gonna
get to step five. But in theirmind, he's at step six, or he's
at step four, and in his mind,she's at step two. So they have
to figure out how to like, workthrough those things together.
And a big thing that I recommendnow is I tell all my guys that

(12:51):
they're in relationships,whether, no matter who your
relationship with, when yourperson's talking and they
getting it out like, ask them,Are you looking for feedback?
Are you looking to like you wantactual like support. Do you want
takeaway items, or do you justwant me to listen and support
you in that way? And that kindof gives you clarity on how you
can then respond. But when wedon't do that, we have this, I

(13:11):
solve the problem. Why they whyis she still upset? Or she

asked you to solve a problem? Listen to me
like, I didn't ask you for this.Yeah,

Unknown (13:20):
I didn't ask you for this. Like, what? Like,

first of all, we seem to be confused, because
I just need you to sit here andtell me, I'm amazing. I don't
need, I didn't ask you for nosolution. Like, and I the
communication thing is a verygood point, because I, I feel
like some people need to talkabout things in that direct
moment, and some people need totalk maybe in like, an hour or
two. And those two people arealways married. Those two people
are always together. The personwho needs a minute and the

(13:44):
person who needs like, I want totalk about it immediately,
always together. Like, these arethe people who are going to be
together for the rest of life.Because, God forbid you marry
someone or be with someone whocommunicates in the same way you
do. That would just be too easy.Y'all No, you choose the strong,
silent type, and you talk a milea minute. That's what you
decided. Right? Like, I need toexpress this, and I also say
there's not always going to be asolution, right? Because

(14:06):
sometimes I just want to, I'mgonna just be talking stuff, and
it's like, well, that personirritates you so much. Why do
you keep going out with them?Because they're, what are you
asking me? Because I want to,like, what? So you telling me
I'm the problem? Like, what youmean? Like, like, it's just
like, there's I didn't at nopoint. I just need you to see
here, tell me, like, it'sclearly their issue and go from

(14:27):
there. But I feel like it's alsodifficult, because that's not
really how I don't think theworld is receptive to one
acknowledge emotions when itcomes to black men in the first
place, but even, like, workingthrough them and a slower pace,
like you have to have solutions,right? Like, it's great if
you're in a scenario wherepeople, like, affirm your
emotions and acknowledge thefact that you're allowed to have
them and be a human being as ablack guy, but like, most of the

(14:49):
time it's just like, okay, suckit up. But like, we don't have
time for this. Like, you need tobe quicker at it. So I sometimes
think that's also an issue with,like, jumping to solutions,
because that's, well, that's theonly thing. I mean, yeah,

Unknown (15:03):
yep, I even, like, even personally, right? There's times
where something will come up andit's like, I know that it's an
emotional response that I'mhaving, and I'll be like, Oh,
put that away. We gotta solveit. Then we can feel this later,
but we got to get through it.But like, you're saying like,
that has been ingrained in us byracism, slavery, all the things,
performative behavior likethat's just like, work through
it. But then we like we'retaking away this idea that we're

(15:25):
not human. We are human. We havethese emotions, we have these
feelings. We're able to be andshow up as our true whole
selves. But we also have to takeresponsibility to do that as
men, to be able to grow thatskill, even though it wasn't
maybe taught to us, we stillit's still our responsibility as
adults and as young men to beable to do that?

Yeah, and I think that's really hard. I feel
like we're getting to a spacewhere it's getting more
normalized. But it's a big it'sa tall thing. It's a tall order,
right? Because at the end of theday, like these kind of, like,
biases and stereotypes and stufflike that, like, they didn't
happen overnight, so trying tobreak them down isn't gonna
happen overnight. Anytime I talkabout, like, specific mental
health when it comes to blackmen, or if I'm talking about
black women, or if I'm talkingabout, like, non binary black

(16:05):
people, there's always someaspect of, like, there's going
to be some form of a gender warin my freaking comments, and
I'll just be like, Yo Yo. Hey,get the freak out of here.
You're right. Don't like this,you know, like, it's just like,
so what about the black woman'sexperience? Like, when the freak
Do I not talk about the blackwoman experience. What about the
black man's experience? I talkabout the black man experience
often, and I'm just like, Yolike, what if I told y'all that,

(16:28):
like, this is superunproductive. And I personally
feel like what's best for theblack community is what's best
for like, him or her or they butit always comes up with this
whole aspect of like us againsteach other. And, God forbid you
try to actually state that blacklove exists like I feel like,
the media just makes it seemlike you if I feel like, if you
didn't, you get to actually seeit when it comes to couples and

(16:50):
and possibly a personal life.But if it wasn't for that, you
would really, most people wouldbelieve that, like, black love
doesn't exist. Black women andblack men can't stand each other
like you. I don't, I feel likethat's a lot of the ways that
media portrays things. What

Unknown (17:04):
do you what in your perspective? Where do you feel
like that comes from? Is that a,Oh, I feel like put in person on
purpose, in order to keep usseparate so that way we can't
get to the place where we shouldand could be as kings and
queens. Oh, yeah.

I feel like, I feel like white supremacists
have always played the longgame. So I, I've always felt
like, with having this aspect oflike, division, it makes it so
that we're not able to be asunified, and that's always going
to be better for like, it'salways going to be best for the
oppressors, for oppressed, thepeople who are oppressed, not to
be a united front. Like, that'sabsurd. Like, even from
enslavement, they made sure thatpeople were related, weren't

(17:38):
together, who spoke the lengthsame language weren't together,
like it was, it's very muchoppressors have always played
the long game. And it alsosells, right? Like, the clicks
will be higher on media. I cando an amazing post about some
just, like, perfect therapeutictechnique, but the minute I go
off on somebody viral, I'm like,Y'all just like me to be messy.
I do too, but like, Come on,guys. Like, let's be adults.

(17:59):
Like, like, so I also I'm atthis place where, like, I don't
even know if men or womenactually believe have the stuff
they're saying as much as theyjust know that this will get
them to where they need to go.And I think that we have to
decide, like, what's the mostimportant thing? Because is it
important for you to, I don'tknow, make ducats and get those
clicks and stuff like that tothe point where you don't care
about the fact that itcontributes to the detriment of,

(18:20):
like, the community, like, whatthey have to care, like you have
to care that it's a thing. AndI'm not sure if everyone does. I
genuinely don't believe everyonebelieves the stuff that they
say. I don't. I just thinkthey're, like, it's gonna be
clicks, which gives me money,and these are my bills. I don't
think it's not, it's some stuffis so stupid. You don't say,
like, There's no way. Yeah, thatyou believe this, like, I and

(18:42):
that sucks, because it's justlike, but you also can't force
people to, I don't know. Youcan't force them to always see
the community as a whole. Somepeople are just like, we're
individuals, but black people asa whole, we've all we were taken
from a collectivist place. So,like, that's not really, I don't
really think that's not of us.But no, I don't really think
that you think they believe it,like you think with the whole

(19:02):
like, what is it the incels?What is I'm hearing about
incels, and I'm hearing aboutlike, black women, I don't
appreciate black men, and thenblack men can't stand black
women. And like, like, none ofus.

Unknown (19:16):
I don't know if this Well, I think you called it out.
It's polarized. And I think thatwhen that energy or that type of
exchange is happening, I dothink that the algorithm,
algorithms are real. We allrealize that now, right? And if
that's what sells, that's whatgets the stuff, and that's what
people knows get, know, gets it.But in reality, like, media
shows what media wants to show.And yeah, could go back to,

(19:38):
like, that level of oppression.Like, yes, we're going to
continue to promote this idea ofthe disconnect, as opposed to
the post where we're talkingabout what black love is and
what black love shows up as andlooks like, that'll give a
couple likes, but we're gonna,we're gonna focus on the drama,
and the drama is thisdisconnect, right? And, yeah, I
think that also in the space,there are times where we have, I

(19:59):
think social media. Is a biggertool than maybe some people
realize, and it goes so muchfurther than we also can even
realize. And when we say things,even if it's out of anger, out
of frustration and out ofwhatever we have going on in the
moment that comment goes, andwhen that comment goes,
depending on who you are, you'venow created a whole tenet of
information and other commentsthat come from it, like you're

(20:19):
saying, like this whole thing,like y'all arguing back and
forth, why can't we, like,legit, why can't we get along
like, what's the like, what'sthe deepest issue? Like, why are
we still doing this right? So Ithink that's another reason, and
another way, honestly, how thatoppression continues to occur.
Because when you push it and yousell it, it's going to continue
to get pushed and continue tosell. And we're in this space
where we're trying to figureout, I think, as a society, is

(20:42):
the money worth the drama, or isit? Do you want to stand firm in
what you believe in and juststay out the way, because nobody
else does?

Yeah, it's crazy, because it's not even
always the I think it's money.It's like, I think it's social
capital. People don't see it asmuch of a tool as it is. Only
reason why I got on social mediais because I feel like I was
able to see early on, like, Oh,this is this? Is this? Like
people? That will never read mymanuscripts, but I can do a 92nd
video about like a techniquethat can help a parent with
their child, and that thing willgo viral. And I don't think

(21:10):
people see it as like it's oneof the biggest tools out there
when it comes to mental health,and one of the biggest stressors
is feeling isolated in yourexperience having mental health
professionals that look like usbeing like, Oh no, that was some
racist stuff. Like being able togo online and see that, because
nobody around you is going to beable to do that because you're
not around a bunch of blackpeople. Like, that's a game
changer, in my opinion. Like, Idon't think people use it as

(21:31):
much as they should for mentalhealth and well, being honestly,
a lot of people think it's, Idon't know there's a academia's
elitists and stuff like that, somaybe they don't see the utility
of it. But yeah, my studentslegit told me that they were
going to listen to me morebecause of social media. I've
been teaching them for years.

Unknown (21:46):
Like, now, you go get social media now, y'all want to
listen to follow up. Yes,

absurd. Like, it doesn't make any sense, but
that's what they you know. Like,that's, that's what they see.
And I feel like it's cool to beable to see people look like you
and not be stuffy, and theybreak stuff down. Like, that's
the kind of clinicians I want tosee. Like, that's, that's the
kind of representation I want tosee. Because, one, they don't
think black people go totherapy. They definitely don't
think black people are treatingother black people. And then
they don't think that weunderstand their experience.

(22:12):
Like, it's, I think social mediacould be a way better tool than
people use it, other than, like,talking about Cheesecake Factory
and like, man, and I really feellike cheesecake factory. Their
sales went up because I was likea Cheesecake Factory in a
minute. Like, let

Unknown (22:25):
me, let me see for dough hit anymore, yo, let

me get this Louisiana chicken pasta, extra
sauce. Y'all like, let me. Idon't think people so. Like, if
you had a patient who was comingin, it was like a black man. And
you feel as though, like he Whatare some there's no specific
reason to come to therapy. Butwhen I've worked with black men
in therapy, there have been acouple of themes, like one,
feeling isolated. I think a bigtheme is also like, I sometimes

(22:54):
I've seen that like, black mendon't realize that like the
person they're in a relationshipwith, like they're the prop.
Like, I think sometimes they'regonna be like, so used to
feelings getting disregarded ornot even feeling comfortable
acknowledging their feelings,that I'll be hearing stories and
I'll be like, I'm sorry. Theysaid, What? Right? Oh, okay,
okay, so from what you sharedwith me, that sounds like a

(23:18):
dismissive comment. Did you notreceive it that way? And they
it's just like, oh yeah, but westill gonna go out tonight.
Like, what? Like, like, so Ithink a lot of times there's,
there's not also like, like, abarometer of, oh, yo. Like, you
can't, you're not supposed toget treated like trash either.
Because if the tables wereturned, um, it would be, I

(23:39):
wouldn't be like, I'll be like,leave him sis. Like, what he has
lost his mind. Like, what theheck. Like, I feel like I
noticed that a lot. Now I'm notgonna say I don't know. It's
also like, oh, it's not like yousaid, This sounds delusional,
like you need to learn how tobut I also hear like, I'll just
be like, Man, it sounds likeyou're getting treated like
trash. In my opinion. I don'tknow what from what you've
shared, right? Like, because wecan only go off with their

(24:01):
perception. I'm like, thatsounded like a dismissive
statement, or that sounded likeyour feelings were being shut
down, or that sounds like youwere actually trying to connect,
and it was seen as, like, beingsoft, like I can only go off of
what you're saying, but itdoesn't these don't sound like
contributors to a healthyrelationship. Is typically what
I was like, No,

Unknown (24:18):
I think that's spot on and but I'm not sure where that
comes from, because that is alsoa thing that I typically run
into, and it's almost, I'd say,not sad, but eye opening in a
way. It's like, Yo, yeah, theycome in and they like, I'm
talking about this. And we didthis and we did this. I'm like,
Alright, cool. Like, how'd yourespond? Like, what was it
there? And they're like, I'majust eat it. I'm like, bro,
like, you don't gotta justdon't, like, no, go home and

(24:41):
still speak up for yourself. ButI think also like you saying
like that, there's thedismissiveness of the partner,
in tandem with the way thatsometimes the structure is
going, in conjunction with theway society treats black men, is
I'm not supposed to say much. Iaccept what I can accept. I'm
gonna just have to take whateverI can get at the end of day. No.
Guys gonna believe anybody,everybody's gonna say, I'm the

(25:02):
problem, so I might as well justsuck it up and eat it. And I'm
like, Look, I'm not saying thatyou aren't able to do these
things. But what I am gonna addin is, like, is that? Like, what
makes you happy? Like, can yousee yourself happy with this
person in three years? That'susually where I go when, when I
work with these kind of blackmen and they're talking about
these things. Like, if you saynothing and you just eat it, can
you do this for three yearsstraight, and 99% of the time?

(25:24):
The answer is like, hell no. AndI'm like, okay, cool. So why not
start to slowly have thoseconversations now, if you want
to keep this person in yourlife, let's set some
expectations. Let's set someboundaries. Let's make sure that
the same way, because if youtalk to her like that, it would
be an issue,

and be like, I mean, this man done lost his
black line, and you need to letyou and you need to help him
find it, honey, because there'sno way, right? So

Unknown (25:49):
just like those slow steps and again, like that
actionable idea, right? Like, gohome and just sit down and,
like, set the stage. Like, Iwant to just have a very
transparent conversation abouthow I'm feeling, what's going
on. I want to be able to workthrough this with you. This
isn't about you against me or meagainst you. I want to get
through this together, and let'ssee where we can come out on the
other side, like having thosekind of setting the
conversations up for success, Ithink always help. But again,

(26:11):
we're not taught that as blackmen. We're not taught to really
advocate in that way. From anemotional standpoint, we're here
to protect, we're here toprovide, and that's what society
has told us that we can do, butnow we are leaning in this space
where we want to be utilized asthe whole person, just as
somebody else does in oursignificant others. So you got
to speak up, though, bro. Yougot to say something. If you
don't say something, don't comeback in here six months later

(26:32):
and be like, bro, I'm just sosad. I bet like I would be too
if you would send me the samething. Like, come on. We got to
speak up.

So what would you say to individuals who,
like, when they're having anargument, their go to is to,
like, just like you mentioned,like, I'm not gonna say
anything, but their goal to isalso to just, like, walk away.
Like, because I saw a post aboutindividuals talking about, like,
oh, men will just walk away andcome back and everything's
resolved, but I'm just like, onthe other side of things, like
women can see that as like, Oh,you don't care. Because, like,

(27:01):
why would you, why would youleave? And it's just like, I
need to leave because you talkto me like, you ain't got no
sense. So there's also that. Butlike, what would be like, say
you have a couple and they'recoming in, and that's the issue.
It's like, every she's saying,Every time I we have an
argument, he leaves, and he'slike, every time we have a
conversation, it turns into anargument. Because I was trying

(27:21):
to have another argument. Thirdargument. I'm trying to have a
conversation, a discussion, andnow you telling me, yeah, you
don't even need me. I can affordthis rent on my own. Like, what
would be as somebody who alsoasked listen, I understand it,
because y'all these have beenprevious scenarios that I'm just
playing a replay from my pastrelationships. I remember one

(27:42):
time my husband said somethingabout me, something about me,
like, washing the dishes like Ididn't I was stacking the wrong
or something like that. And Iwas like, Well, I gotta ever
wash dishes again. Youunderstand me? And he's just
like, he just looked like, like,what? What I do better at like,
when it comes out, be like, I'msorry that was excessive. Like,
I say I'm excessive to me, Ilike, sometimes I just need a

(28:03):
minute. That's why I say, like,take a breath and slow down,
because I just, I'm just a very,like, East Coast person. So my
first response is, what? Andthat's not, that's not
appropriate most of the time.So, like, I'll be trying. I'd be
like, Y'all think I'm, like, areasonable person, but I gotta
slow down, because my firstresponse is not reason. My first
response is legit, run up, getdone. What? Right? And then

(28:24):
afterwards I'm like, yo, this ismy husband. Yo, like, I

Unknown (28:27):
can't do that,

but you gotta slow down, because I'm always
just like, Y'all, my firstresponse is not reasonable. I
just know to slide that heiferto the back and be like, Y'all,
we not. This is not, we're notin North Philly. You're in a
home. This is the five of yourchildren. Maybe, maybe

Unknown (28:47):
a different way lesson,

yeah, but you got to know to do it right.
Like, you got to know yourself.I know that. Like, I know I'm a
smart ass. Like, this is justwhat it is. Yo, like, it even
afterwards, I'll be like, Oh,that was so unnecessary. Oh, my
God. And I'm just like, the moreI slow down, the more I don't
have to apologize, because Iain't say nothing crazy. Like,
so slow down because y'all don'tknow nobody. Want to apologize
every five seconds. Maybe youjust stop being a butt. Like,

(29:09):
like, I saw this thing aboutlike, apologies, and it's just,
like, all the things that gointo good apologies, and I'm
just like, also be great. Youain't have so much stuff to
apologize for.

Unknown (29:19):
There's that. It's a bar, I think that, yeah, even
when I think about like that,right? And you're talking about
this example, I've adopted thiseven from like Gottman when it
comes to what they've taught mewhen, like, stonewalling and all
those types of things, I've gotinto a space now where I've
interpreted that in a way whereI allow the couples to create

(29:39):
their own rules of engagementwhen they know it's gonna get
feisty, when they know it'sgonna get spicy, when they know
it's an issue. When stuff iscool, stuff is usually cool, so
it's not an issue, right? Butwhen stuff is not cool, how are
we responding to navigate thatsituation? And you, when I tell
you, Doc, you would besurprised, like, it'd be like,
some stuff. I'm like, dang. Ishould be like, maybe. Should

(30:00):
take, take that like, that'ssometimes. I'm like, yo, y'all
rule is, all right, don't curseat each other. I'm like, that's
one rule. That's only, only rulewe need. Then they come back in
and like, oh, well, they broughtup something that happened seven
years ago. I might well, y'allweren't clear, right? So I think
creating these ideas, or thesetenets of whatever your rules of
engagement are, that could looklike, if you're the spicy type,

(30:24):
whether you're the quick outtheir mouth type, I tell people
like, Yo, just pause for like,10 seconds. Like, just pause
whatever you say after that. Itis what it is, right? But just
pause it in seconds. And thereare some people like, for me,
I'm a person, and some of myclients are this space where,
when I have something that'sgoing on or I feel away. I want
to talk about it. I don't wantto like talk for five minutes
and then be like, conversationdone. I want to keep going. I

(30:46):
want to keep talking. But I alsohave to recognize I might be
talking in circles and now theother person's like, bro, I
heard you, I heard you, I heardyou, I heard you. Like you keep
going. I don't want to hearthis. No more, right? So
figuring out what that dynamiclooks like, what that time frame
looks like, do we both step awayfor 10 minutes because we both
are hot heads, and we know howwe get and then we agree to come
back. Do we have not a safetyword, but a word of, like, where

(31:07):
it's getting too heated, andsomebody can be able to be aware
of the situation and step backand be like, All right, we need
to take a break, and then we'llcome back. I have a couple that
uses, they use somethingPikachu. And I was like,
Pikachu? And they were like,Yeah. And I was like, wow, okay,
what made y'all choose Pikachu?And they're like, it just makes
both just makes both of uslaugh. And they never used it
for the first week. And then itSomething came up, and I think

(31:28):
the wife, she yelled out Pikachubecause the husband was
beginning to raise his voice,and they bust out laughing. And
then they were able to, like,all right, cool. Let's release,
reset. Let's have thisconversation. So like figuring
out what works for you when itcomes to these rules of
engagement and communication,can get you to solve or to
resolve, or to just at leasthave a conversation on the topic
at hand, as opposed to how we'reresponding in the moment,

(31:49):
because we all know ifsomething's going on, but the
response similar to what yousaid, like, I'm not washing none
of these dishes, no moreforever. Now, we're worried
about that issue, right? We'rewe're worried about that
response, as opposed to theactual thing that's going on
that we can maybe navigate alittle bit better. So I always
say, create some rules ofengagement. Talk about time
frame. How long are you willingto step away from each other, to

(32:10):
take a break, to come back? Havea word that kind of tells both
of you all this that we need tojust calm down. Are we hitting
below the belt? Are we agreeingnot to hit the below the belt?
Right? Like, there are certainthings. Don't bring nobody's
mama into it. Like, I'm tellingyou, it just be like, little
things.

Oh yeah. I mean, like, so get a lawyer,
honey. Like, it's like, it'scertain things. It's just like,
get a lawyer. I'm not about todo this. This is in your best
this is in your best interest.And I like that. When it comes
to the buzzword, I typicallytell people to choose a funny
buzzword, because, like, it justhelps to break the tension. Yo.
Like, I think one of myfamilies, their thing was

(32:47):
falafel. And I'm like, that'swhat's up. Like, whatever. But
it helps to like, break thetension. And you all your points
were good. And I want to add,like, during the argument is not
typically the best time to like.You can't have these
conversations during it. Whatyou're trying to do is prepare
for it. So these conversationsshould be had. I think they
should be typical conversations.When I was dating my husband, we

(33:08):
were having conversations aboutkids before I even had any
interest of, like, I'm talkingabout in a decade talking about
communication before, like, it'shard to talk about, like, well,
I need you to talk be nicer tome when we've been screaming at
each other for like, 1520minutes. Like these
conversations, they should justbe typical conversations,
because the issue inrelationships are not like, what
is it called conflict? It'slike, it's poor conflict

(33:29):
resolution. You got to know youlike, I know how I am, so I also
know when I'm beingunreasonable, but you also got
to be comfortable admittingthat. And I think a lot of times
people, my biggest thing wasjust, has always been, like, we
still got to go to sleep in thesame house. Yo, like, so if you
are you, do you really feel likethis is someone you gonna have
to avoid them because you weresuch a jerk. And I also remind

(33:49):
myself, like, what? I letanybody else talk to my partner?
Like, this, really good sleep.Protective person. Like, yeah,
if some other woman came talk tomy husband like this, I knock
her out. Like, so like, Why do Iget to talk to him? Like, I'm
not gonna let No. Like, if I, ifanybody else talk to you this
way, I would have a problem. So,like, it's gonna be a no.

Unknown (34:11):
It's interesting, though. I You, I've used that,
that kind of, like, reframe backto, especially some of my male
clients, when it comes to, like,Oh, I'm like, How'd you respond?
They're like, why I said? I waslike, okay, you don't think
that's a little was that alittle harsh in your opinion?
And it's like, no, I'm shootingit from this from the hip, bro.
And I'm like, Okay, let me giveyou an example. Let's say your
lady was sitting right here, andI said everything you just said.

(34:32):
And they're like, We have tofight. And I was like, exactly.
So why is it okay for you towork on work, to do that, right?
So I love that whole likereframing, giving it back,
because a lot of times that'swhen I typically get people to
be like, All right, well, if Iwon't let the random man on the
street do it, why is it okay forme to do that to my lady, and
even vice versa, if I don't talkto if I would go fight this
woman for coming to my man likethat, why is it okay for me to

(34:55):
come at them like that? And Ithink that usually opens a
mindset, or at least an idea oflike, I need to have some. Self
awareness on how I'm responding,as opposed to just deal with it.
And I think that goes again,goes back to that performative
behavior, dismissive like we allhave. Everybody has to take
accountability. It's not, in myopinion, it's not just men, it's
not just women, it's not justnon binary. It's everybody as
two individuals in arelationship. Everybody has to

(35:16):
take accountability for whatthey're bringing to the table.
And it's gonna be some greatstuff, and it's gonna be some
stuff that may not be the best,but we gotta be able to work
able to work through thattogether, as opposed to just
being the other person all thetime.

Yeah, and I think it's cool to acknowledge
the fact that it like it takesas well, and some people just
gotta be comfortable with beingwrong, like you got, like I was
wrong, like it's not the end ofthe world, like it's not even
just about, like apologies. Andbecause I feel like we've been
getting really trash, reallytrash apologies lately from
people, like, on both ends, butI feel like the best apology is

(35:48):
change behavior, so I want youto apologize. And like, can we
talk about how you not gonna dothis again? Because it just
makes no sense. Like, there'sonly so many times you're not
gonna keep apologizing to me forthe same day. And that goes both
ways you're choosing to do it atthis point, especially if you're
with someone, and you knowwhat's going to make them upset

(36:08):
like you and you're just pokingthat like, I always say, like,
okay, so you do you not want tobe with this person, because it
seemed like you talking to themlike you don't want to be with
them. Because I can't, I can'timagine telling someone, like,
calling them that name and justbeing like, so where do you want
to go for dinner? Where do Iwant to go for dinner? Right?
I'm packing your stuff. Are younot watching me? You're like,

(36:30):
about like, You better listen,call your dad. He's got to pick
you up because, like, You got toget out my house. Like, this
isn't happening. So I thinkpeople forget and lose sight of
that. The biggest thing mostpeople are missing is
perspective. But like, you canacknowledge it's okay to
acknowledge that. Like, yo, theyhurt my feelings. It like, since
you hurt my feelings, I thinkI'm gonna get a minute, like,
whether it was intentional ornot, because intent and impact

(36:52):
are different. Like, people needto know how they react when they
feelings get hurt. Like, okay,my feelings get hurt. I start
crying. I might get sad. Otherpeople, my feelings get hurt and
I get mean. Like, Nah, you hurtmy feelings, so I'm gonna
verbally punch you in the face,right? I might regret it. Y'all
like, I might regret it.

Unknown (37:10):
I'm gonna do it, but then I regret it. I'm

gonna do it because I need you to feel how I
feel, and I that hurt. And whenyou're building relationships
with people, you're working onbuilding this amazing support
system and someone who you go toand bringing them close to you,
but you also are acknowledgingthat you're building the
opportunity for someone to hurtyou. Like, that's the most
difficult part. Like, oh, okay,yeah. Like, I want you to be
there for me. And I think it'samazing. You're also granting

(37:32):
people the opportunity to hurtyou, which, like, it's like you
got to teach people how to treatyou most of the time. And I
think people don't acknowledgethat you have to teach them how
to treat you. What do you think,Rose, can

Unknown (37:46):
you hear me introduce it? Oh,

yeah, yeah.

Unknown (37:49):
Where do you think this idea of the teaching part came
from? Because that's something Ialso work on when it comes to
just individual and couples.Work is people expecting that,
because they love this personand because this person loves
them, that they will just knowhow to treat them. And I'm like,
yo, like, you gotta. It's justwe have to as weird as we gotta
train people to treat us acertain way we want to be

(38:09):
treated. People will do whateverthey think is best if we don't.
But this idea, this theme of,oh, well, I love them, they love
me, so they should know what todo, that's a lot of assumptions.
I don't think that's fair foryou or for

them. It's so many assumptions I'll never
forget when I was in I randomlysinging sessions all the time,
but like the guy was talking tohe's like, it wasn't a couple
session. But he was like, sheshould have known that. Like she
knows. And I was like, and Iknow she knows. He's like, what
you sound like Jay? I like yousound like Jay. Polio song,
because it don't make no sense.He was just like, Dr Martin. I

(38:40):
said, I'm sorry. It's very dark.All I heard was the song, like,
she knows she knows. And I'mlike, right, right, I know she
knows. That doesn't make anysense. Like it's when it comes
to needs and wants, like, somany times they're not meant to
be, like, how the equator is animaginary line. It's not
supposed to be imaginary. Whywould you assume just because I
love you and you love me. Thatdoesn't mean that I know what to

(39:02):
do. That means you need to letme know. And it's also like, one
of the things that gets to me islike, when people don't, I'm
pretty direct, so, like, mostpeople know, like, Oh, if
there's an issue, just tell her.She'll fix it. She I don't,
like, hurt nobody's feelings.But if something happens, and
like, you didn't tell me, I'llnever forget when I was dating
my husband, I know for a fact hehad an issue with like, me,

(39:25):
like, leaving my wallet, like,but like, intent, like, I would
just be, like, I'm not payingfor this, right? Mind, you, we
both are undergrad or I justgraduated, right? And I could
tell it made him mad. But I alsodon't like when people don't
bring things to my attention. Solisten, you ain't changing? Did
you? No, and I knew it made himmad, and that's the thing, like,
so you should, like, listen,everybody, don't be like me, but
you're going to correct me. I'mgoing to make you correct me.

(39:46):
We're about to go to the grocerystore. Let's get a whole thing
of groceries. And I made mywallet was right there, and I
was like, I'm ready to go. Andhe was like, what? I was like,
I'm ready to go. Let's out. Andhe saw my wallet, and I was
like, yeah, come on. Let's go.He said, Aren't you forgetting
some. Thing. I was like, No, Ihave my keys. I'm also not
driving. I never drive with him.He's like, so like, I and he was
like, I understand, like, payingfor stuff, but he's like, we

(40:08):
about to go get some groceries,though. Like, we even been out
to eat like, three times thisweek. And I was like, exactly,
why do you have to get upset totell me that? And I was like,
Yeah, I have no problem bringingmy wallet. You just had to say
so. And he looked at me like Iwas crazy, and I'm like, buckle
up, because this is how it'sgonna be. The whole time you
gonna have to, you won't have totell me, I'm not gonna, I'm not
gonna just do it like you haveto tell me what to do, like

(40:30):
there. And it's not even just,it's not just like being rude or
making it a game. It's justlike, I want you to, I don't
want you to think that ourrelationship can't stand like,
conflicts. Are you advocatingfor yourself? And I think
there's many situations where,and this might have been a
clinical thing, black men arejust seen as, like, they
shouldn't be advocating forthemselves. I don't like that.
Like, I do not like that. Like,No, you need you have to tell

(40:50):
me, like, I don't like it.Please stop. It's not like
you're being disrespectful. Youtelling me how to treat you is
what you deserve. You need toadvocate for yourself too. I
never, he just looked at me, andI was just like, Yeah, I knew
that made you mad. I know whatstuff makes you mad you but you
won't tell me. I'm not about toread your mind. I don't like it.
That's

Unknown (41:07):
that idea that we're talking about, though, right?
This that level of advocacyisn't typically, I think that
society as a whole, I can't sayeverybody as a whole. It seems
like society really pushes theavocation advocacy and speaking
of herself when it comes toanybody that's not a black man,
in a way. And I think that thereare times where the level of

(41:27):
advocacy turns into like you'resaying, like I respond once I've
held it in for so long, and I'malmost like, building a level of
resentment, and I gotta get itout, or I'm angry and I gotta
get out. Or a lot of times, whatI think with black men is that
we don't say anything, and thenour partners continue to push
and push and push, and then wefinally let it out, right? But
this level of speaking up andadvocacy doesn't feel as common

(41:50):
as it should be, or as strongmaybe as it should be when it
comes to black men, but I thinkit's because we just weren't
taught that. But again, likethat goes back to that idea,
like, just because you weren'ttaught it when you was a kid,
don't mean you should be workingon that as an adult. Like, if
you want better, you got tospeak up and speak and say that,
which say, what your pieces,right, close mouths. Don't get
fed. Don't like, again, don'tcome in and complaining. But

(42:11):
then you're not willing to stepin that realm and put yourself
out there and say, Hey, thisdoesn't make me feel good. I
need help with this. Looks likeblah, blah, blah. Can you
support me? Like we have to beable to get ourselves to that
space as black men to speak up,because that's when we'll get
the support that we reallylowkey want and that we need,
but we can't assume that theyknow that that's just not fair.
Yeah,

and that's the support y'all deserve,
right? Like, I have more menaround me than women. I got two
boys, I my husband, my parentsare married. Like I have a baby
brother. Like, I just, I'vealways seen it. I see stuff
differently, because I'm like, Ithink there need to be, and I
appreciate the fact that you domore things with black men.
Because I, for the longest, allof my work was with I just knew

(42:51):
I was gonna focus therapy,mental health, research on black
girls. And then I had my firstboy, and then I had my second
boy, and I was like, yo. Like, Ilike, I I was like, I could have
sworn I was just only gonna havegirls, and even just having the
proximity, because proximity isan experience. I'm a girl's
girl. Like, it's not even aquestion. My business partner,

(43:12):
he's a guy, and he's datingsomeone. I was like, hi, and I
was telling her, like, don't youadvocate for yourself. You don't
let him treat you many all kindof way. And he was like, Yo, I
thought she was my friend. Isaid, Oh my god, I'm so sorry to
confuse you. Confuse you, but Iwill throw a man out the window
as soon as a woman youunderstand me, like I am a
girl's girl and you are mybusiness partner. I literally
need you for this to survive.And also, like, I will let her

(43:33):
slap her around, let her slapyou around if I was present,
like, like it's girls all day.You know I'm saying. So that's
just always how I've been. Sowhen I've been having my boys
and stuff like that, like,they're just seeing this realm
of there needs to be more stufffor black men, because you have
all these girl dads, and I'm,like, all right, yo. So like,

(43:53):
I'm doing all this stuff to makesure your daughters are good.
I'm gonna need y'all to do somestuff to make sure my sons are
good, yo. Because, like, there'sso much more stuff, and there's
not enough stuff for blackpeople anyway, but there's way
more stuff for black girls thanit is for black it took me
longer to find books for mysons. It took me longer to find
cartoons for my sons. It took melonger to find like, even like
the little pajamas, like I couldfind the afro unicorn, I could

(44:16):
find it all these girls withbarrettes and balls and images.
It's harder when it comes toboys, and I'm just like it, I
honestly, unfortunately, it wasa blind spot for me for some
time, because I also just never,none of my research, with all of
my stuff, was on girls, likeresearch advocacy, most of my
patients. It was a huge blindspot for me until I had boys,
which is probably why I get it.It was just probably why I have

(44:39):
them. But like, like, it was ablind spot for me in the first
place. It's one of the reasons,when we were talking earlier, I
was like, Man, I gotta get somewomen. Because, like, All I got
is like men. I was like, All Igot is like men therapists. I
was like, hey, interview a womanin a minute. Like, I gotta work.
Yeah, it's because I see it assuch a gap, right? Like. I'm

(45:00):
surrounded by black men, but myproximity is an experience, and
as someone who genuinely has afear when it comes to the way
black men are treated, it'sstill like not enough, like
there's not enough black mentherapists, there's not enough
programs dedicated solely toblack men. I shouldn't have to
search as hard to find picturesthat look like my babies like
that. It's way quicker if I waslooking up something for my

(45:22):
nieces and for my than

Unknown (45:23):
for my sons. And even when it comes to like, the just
that representation piece of howwhat that looks like, and how
that shows up as like, I tellpeople all the time the work
that we're doing now at myorganization, and even like my
like, I have brothersorganization, the game server,
shout out to them. Vivid thework isn't like, we're not going
to see the true impact, likewe're working to begin to shift

(45:46):
that perspective. We're workingto shift the understanding and
transform what that looks likeand showing up as but that true
impact, it's generations away.But that doesn't mean we don't
continue to push on and pushthrough, right? Because, like
I'm saying, the goal would bethat there is a day where you
can go online and search a blackmale therapist, and it's only
it's not it's only, it's not thesame 10 minute four. Listen, the
gold is for, I feel like I

didn't interview all y'all, all of
them. Like, listen, I interviewlike, all y'all. I was like, Oh,
we going to see we going to DC.Oh, yeah. So I interviewed him
last week. Was last week, Iknow, you know, Rashawn, like
you stressed. I was like, Yeah.And it's like, all of my kids
are not, it's terrible, but Iguarantee you, all of them go be
on the show at one point intime. Because it's just like,
oh,

Unknown (46:28):
yeah, I know. Like, that's the thing. Like, we have
to, and I've come to terms withthat, I think, as a clinician
and as a as somebody that'sworking to transform that idea.
But again, that's all I'm bigon. Like, bringing up, like,
soon as soon as I see somebodythat's in the field and they're
in the Graduate School Program,or I'm teaching them, and it's
like two or three, Hey, come on.Let me like, come on. Like we
I'm keeping you not droppingout. You're not taking no tests.

(46:49):
Like, we gotta push thisthrough. But again, that will
help to shift that idea, again,culturally and society wise,
around how we can just be morepresent and more represented in
certain spaces, right? Like,even for me, like when it comes
to my primary care, I just founda primary care that's a black
man that I liked five years ago.I'm 34, years old. Everything

(47:14):
else it was, it was a whitewoman or it was an older white
man, and they're not sayingthat. They weren't. They were
good at what they did. Butagain, a cultural understanding
is very different, right? Thenuances of what that looks like
are very different. How race andculture and societal pressure
plays into stress and all thosethings like, it's just
different. And that made me feelso whole, being able to find a
primary care that is an olderblack man that can be like, hey,

(47:36):
like, I get it, but this is whatwe're gonna do, because this is
something that's race related,right? Or how we're going to
shift those things. So again, Ijust, I love this idea, and I do
want to say I commend you onbeing able to navigate the both
Gender Wars and then the all theother wars of how things go.
Because I, again, for me, like Iknow my lane, I like to stay in
my lane, but I also know that wedon't have to argue about

(47:58):
everything. And it can. We canlove black men. It's okay.

It's okay. Both can be present. Don't even
stay in your lane. Like, I tellpeople, like, I got a whole
freaking highway. And let metell you something you not about
to like, I think, like, the thelevel of assumptions. Like, I
always say, like, Oh, I'm awomanist, and I'm gonna advocate
for women, advocate forthemselves all the time. And I'm
just like, the same thing withmen. Like, you're not gonna
treat my son all crazy. You'renot gonna treat if I have a
daughter all crazy. Like, everywe deserve to be treated, right?

(48:25):
And I it's no sign for me. It'sbecause, at the end of the day,
I think it's just about thecommunity. So, like, You're not
about to talk about women crazy.You not about to talk about
being crazy. You're not about totalk about non binary, black
people crazy. I'm gonna cut youall out. I have no problem
attacking everyone like, right?Don't crazy. Everybody can get
it like, don't like, it doesn'tmake any sense, because it's
just not, we're notindividualistic. Like, it's not

(48:46):
I was meant to be, like, theonly person who that really
benefits is the oppressor. Like,it doesn't make any sense. And I
think if you only pay attentionto media, I think it's also
like, we got to get out thismedia space. If you only pay
attention to media, you wouldlegit think that's how we are.
But I've never felt moresupported or like, affirms or
empowered, that I'm gonna in aroom of black men and women like
I, that whole divisiveness isnot something I have. I've never

(49:09):
I haven't been around other thanmy exes. I haven't been around
black men that like that made meno good, like I other than my
exes at

Unknown (49:18):
that time we're gonna

I wouldn't assume that I had terrible
taste. Oh, my God, Jesus. Butyeah, like, like, other than
that, yeah, I've never beenaround black men that made me
hard. So then when people arelike this scenario, I'm like,
Oh, I think that's awful thatthis happened to you. And let's
work through this and processthat. But like, I don't think
that's all black men. It's justlike, it's not all black women.
It's not possible to be Iremember my one patient being

(49:42):
like, something about likewomen, and I was like, dang,
that's crazy. I don't know howyou took the time. How did you
make the time to meet all womenin the world? Because, like, you
in school, right? Dang, you gota job. That's crazy. Oh, no,
Doctor, why did you meet allwomen quantitative? What was it
like? What did you do? I barelymade. And then you mean every
single woman, the ones in utero,too. Like, how are you? How are

(50:04):
you doing this? Oh no, I'm justsaying, I said, I'm just saying
you can't say women. And also Iwould say, don't go left, just
because you've been hurt before.Let me tell you something.
There's not a woman alive whoain't been hurt before. Y'all
like, come on. Do you think so?Like, oh, I've been hurt. Mm,
hmm. All right, we'll take yourtime and then get back up. That
don't mean you get to be a getto be a jerk. Like, now you
done, golly. You don't just grewyou it's gonna be terrible. You

(50:28):
don't grow your beard out, andnow you, like, you got just my
MLB tattered on your chest and,like, it's just a lot. I just be
like, Yo going, Yo, don't waitfive days before calling
somebody back you over here,giving X I'm just like, I know
they hurt you, but my God, sir,I know I understand it's okay.

(50:53):
You can acknowledge that itsucked. I don't mean now all
women are just like, Jesus, tellthat to your mother. God, it's
just, it's just too much. I I dofind a lot like and I can't, I
don't want to generalize, butwhen it comes to like, the hurt,
I A lot of times then like, theyI'm sorry, but like, it's just
like, Y'all ain't never beenhurt before. It's just a lot.

(51:13):
I'm like, yo, this escalated.Like, women be like, Oh, I'm
hurt, but I'm gonna try again.Men be like, I ain't trying to
mother, forget you. Ain't nevergonna treat me like this again.
You ain't never gonna treat melike this. I'm smacking all your
friends, all of them, and it'sjust like, oh my god, yo, oh my
god. How

Unknown (51:33):
to work through that? That's the issue. We don't know
how to work through that hurt,that pain. The only way we know
how to is to hurt back andagain. But our first response
is, okay, cool. Let me figureout how what I need to do to get
back and feeling me feelinggood. But that goes back to talk
to somebody that you can processthose feelings, process the

(51:53):
emotions, because that is theMLB now you you're the slayer of
all women like that. Ain't theway, bro

and I just be like, Y'all like, Come on, guy,
I think you could do better,like, But this ain't it,
because, like, my god, you wouldthink, and the whole thing is,
like, it comes from a thing ofpain, but even I could just be
like, Yo, that's that seems likea lot. I don't know. I don't.
Seems like a lot of action inone night. I don't I think this
is excessive, and I it's alsobecause you have, everybody

(52:22):
knows, fight or flight when itcomes to stress response. But a
lot of times, when it comes downto it, I find, like men, they
even more so use like the freezeresponse. And freeze responses
like engaging in numbingbehaviors, like alcohol and
sexually risky behaviors, and Ialways say drag racing. And my
brother told me that was absurd,but like, it's things that are
going to bring you from reality.It's dummy behavior. So there's
always this stuff that says,like, women go through

(52:44):
depression more, but it's that Idon't think that's the case. I
think men are more of a blindspot because their depression
manifests differently,especially black men. If you
have a group of people who havenever been told that they can
acknowledge their emotions,they're always told that they
can own they're only what theycan provide, so they can't
acknowledge their emotions, letalone the range of it, like
their problem solving is goingto be, oh, she dumped me. So
like, I'm a date everybody, orI'm going to lean into work

(53:06):
more, or most of the time I'mseeing men, especially black
men, are just they're just notgetting diagnosed with
depression because people don'tknow how it shows up. Like the
free stress response, that'smen, those numbing behaviors
that increased substance use,that increased, like, those exit
strategies. I'm like, Yeah, yousound depressed, bro. Like, I
know you seem like your friendsseem like you're amazing. You

(53:28):
stop you constantly at work.You're doing all these
investments. You playing, uh,Call of Duty. 24/7 you either
you on Twitch, you got all thesewomen around you. And I'm like,
but all I see is, like, escapingyour reality. Like, I have not
seen one aspect of non numbingbehavior. Like, your entire
personality is a culmination ofnumbing behaviors, right? Yo.
Like, you depressed, bro. I'msorry to tell you. I'm sorry to

(53:51):
tell you, yeah, I gotta let youknow you sound mad, depressed.
Like, oh no. Like, it just seemslike now we own demon time. But,
like, I totally understand thatwell. Dr Mason, thank you so
much for coming on the show. Ifyou could leave, if you
honestly, if you could speak towomen about better ways to
support men. What would you say?

Unknown (54:14):
I think a very good, actionable one is just working
to create a safe space whereboth of you can explore thoughts
and feelings and emotions, notjust one,

not just one. How do they do that, though? Um,

Unknown (54:25):
listening, I think, not dismissing behavior, not
diminishing what's being shared,recognizing that it was already
hard enough to have theconversation. So when we respond
in a certain type of way that'stypically like that open door,
whether they're going to closethe door or whether they're
going to open the door more. Forthe next time, I also think that
recognizing that we as in men,have more emotions in happy,

(54:47):
mad, sad and angry and horny, ifwe're going to be honest, right?
We have and yeah, there will betimes that will show up
differently, but like, payattention to your partner. Like,
just look at them. Pay attentionand study them. They should be
studying you. You can start. Tolearn when your partner is going
through certain things, even ifthey not talking, maybe creating
a safe space where they can talkto somebody else, right? Hey,
like, maybe you should check inwith your brother or check in

(55:08):
with your friend, check in withme, because I think that a lot
of men carry a lot of baggageand weight that they don't
discuss because they feel it'sinappropriate to have that type
of discussion. But if you're theloved one or you're the
significant other, I would Ithink that holding space in
general just looks like checkingin with your person. And it's
not always going to be thatthey're randomly going to come
and tell you, because a lot ofmen aren't again, they're not

(55:28):
raised that way, and that's whysociety has taught us to respond
to our feelings and emotions. Sopay attention to your person.
Hold safe space. Listen to theirfeelings. Active listening.
Don't be on your phone while hetrying to tell you about his
day, and low key missed maybesomething that was a bar. And he
like, well, this Why don't say

nothing anyway. This is why I don't say
nothing anyway. Yeah,

Unknown (55:50):
that's a big one. So, yeah, just that's what I would
be, that's what I would say. Ithink those tips and tricks are
usually ones that kind of createthis safe space of being able to
process and at least just beable to talk to your partner. As
a whole, not saying he's right,you're right. Nobody's right.
But if you want to explore thosetypes of conversations that have
that type of space, you got tobe able to actually create and
cultivate that environment.Okay,

one more question, because I know I said
that was the last one. Whatwould you say is the difference
with what would you say would bea statement that diminishes
versus a statement that like,affirms like in the moment.
Because sometimes people,sometimes people need a script,
like, don't say this. A

Unknown (56:27):
statement that diminishes is, you'll figure it
out, and that's because of yourperson, but they will figure it
out. But that doesn't alwaysfeel good in the moment as we're
trying to work throughsomething. And a statement
that's affirming is, how thishow can I support you? What does
that look like? Because again,we when we think we know what to
do, then we do it, and thatmaybe not be what was needed.
Now we've, like, muddy thatwater up a little bit, but just

(56:49):
ask the person like, okay, cool,you're going through this thing,
and it might even be y'all tooas a couple. It could just be
he's going through something atwork, or whatever that is, Babe,
what does that look like for meto support you? Like, tell me
what does that look like? Giveme an actionable item. It could
be, you just want to head rub.It could be one a beer rub. It
could be, I just want to talk.There are sometimes that men are
working all day long and theywant to come home and everybody

(57:10):
just wants silence, right? Like,I don't want to go play Hall of
duty, but I do that becausethat's the way that I can take a
break. So being able to speakup. If we ask those types of
questions, we allow them to thenspeak up and share what they
feel is appropriate, and thenyou can decide whether you're
gonna lean into it or not. Butthat's a good space that I think
could help. So what can I do tosupport you as you go through
this experience? What

can I do to support you? All right, y'all
that's the script like, becausesometimes people will say stuff
that's abstract and y'allmisinterpret it, and y'all still
got it wrong. So that those weretwo, two clear statements, I
don't hear you saying them. Telleverybody does your so you're in
Maryland. Does your practicehave openings? Like, is
everyone's case load full?Because that's always going to

(57:50):
be the biggest question.

Unknown (57:51):
Yeah, we are accepting new clients, and we are based in
Maryland. What else is there?Feel free to follow us at minds
in motion therapy. But Martin,again, I just want to say I
appreciate you for allowing meto come on and talk to and I
look forward to hearing howthings go. And I'm gonna, I'ma
read your comments if I'm notgonna spot anybody, but I'ma
read your comments and see ifthere's any. But again, at the

(58:13):
end, I lean into each other tolove each other. So let's do
that. We do. Oh,

I love that. We gotta lean into each other to
love each yo. That's that shouldbe on your page somewhere.

Unknown (58:22):
You might need to write that down somewhere.

Write that, John down. That was good. That
was good. I like that. Yeah, yougotta lean into each other to
love each other. Yes, amen. Allright. Well, that was fantastic.
And you'll be able to get allthis information on the show
notes. I will tell you for mindsin motion. It's underscore after
each word, right? That'scorrect. Mine's underscore, yes,
minds underscore. And you neverknow what you might not, you
might see, you might get somemore. You need to do some more

(58:47):
trailers and the suits and stufflike that. And you know what I
feel like, Y'all have alreadydone, like, the suits, so maybe,
like, I don't know. Well, I wasgonna say, I was gonna say,
like, what is something elsethat guys wear? No, I was gonna
say, like, sweat suit outfits.But y'all might get shut down
for that. Yeah, y'all might getshut down. Yeah, I think you
guys will get shut down. I'mjust, listen, I'm just trying to
bring people to therapy by anymeans necessary. You know what

(59:07):
I'm saying? Like, I don't care.I don't mind pandering to being
like, Listen, go to Sasha yo.Like, or even dudes, they look
cool, don't they look likesomebody you will want to hang
out with. Go to therapy. Guys,look at him. He's wearing a
jersey. That's a cool guy rightthere. Come to

Unknown (59:23):
therapy. We're gonna figure something all about
marketing. You might be the musefor the next photo shoot. So,
yeah, be like, listen, see whatyou think,

and I'ma share it. And be like, go to
session. Stop telling me youcan't find anybody. It's like 20
men in here. Because it was alot. I was like, it's like 50
freaking dudes. They say theysay they gotta open it y'all
like go to therapy, please God,for the love of God, but yeah,
thank you so much. I greatlyappreciate you being here.
Everyone. Remember to be kind toyourself, and always remember
that two steps forward and onestep back is still one step

(59:53):
forward. That is just math. Havea fantastic day. You.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

24/7 News: The Latest

The Joe Rogan Experience

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Impact of Media Portrayal on Black Love ft Dr. Marcus Mason

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

24/7 News: The Latest

The Joe Rogan Experience

All Episodes

The Impact of Media Portrayal on Black Love ft Dr. Marcus Mason

Stuff You Should Know