The Role of Media in Portraying Athletes with Respect ft Dr. Kensa Gunter

Dr. Kensa Gunter discusses the unique challenges faced by athletes in the world of sports. These challenges include the intertwining of athletic identity with self-worth, the constant pressure to perform at a high level, the public scrutiny and dehumanization of athletes, and the loneliness that can come from feeling misunderstood. She also highlights the importance of providing support and resources to help athletes navigate these challenges and maintain their mental health and well-being. The conversation explores the cultural shift towards acknowledging and discussing mental health in sports, particularly in the NBA. Dr. Kensa Gunter discusses the Mind Health program and the importance of humanizing mental health and positioning it as an essential element of excellence, wellness, and performance. They also discuss the need for diversity and representation in the field of sports psychology, as well as the role of media in portraying athletes in a way that respects their humanity. Dr. Gunter provides advice for athletes experiencing dehumanization or adultification and emphasizes the importance of empathy and curiosity in media interactions.

 

Takeaways

• Athletes often face unique challenges in the world of sports, including the intertwining of their athletic identity with their self-worth.
• The constant pressure to perform at a high level and the public scrutiny can take a toll on an athlete's mental health.
• Loneliness can be a common experience for athletes, as it can be difficult for others to truly understand their unique experiences.
• Providing support and resources to athletes is crucial in helping them navigate the challenges they face and maintain their mental health and well-being. There has been a cultural shift towards acknowledging and discussing mental health in sports, particularly in the NBA.

Bio

 Dr. Kensa Gunter is a licensed psychologist and Certified Mental Performance Consultant (CMPC) dedicated to humanizing conversations about mental and emotional health. She emphasizes the influence of social, cultural, and environmental factors on well-being and performance. Dr. Gunter offers counseling and consultation services to individuals, teams, and organizations in sport, education, and business, focusing on enhancing organizational health to foster individual development and team culture. An experienced public speaker, she has delivered keynote presentations, participated in panel discussions, and moderated conversations at national and international conferences. 

Dr. Gunter has been featured in various podcasts and print media publications. Her leadership roles span multiple professional organizations, and she has received the distinction of Fellow from both the Georgia Psychological Association and the Association for Applied Sport Psychology (AASP), where she served as President from 2020-21. Currently, she coordinates EDI efforts for APA Division 47.

 

Episode Transcript

Dr. Raquel Martin (00:00):
Steve, Hello everyone, and welcome to Mind
your mental just a reminder thatthis podcast is not meant to be
a substitute for a relationshipwith a licensed mental health
professional. I know they arehard to find, and I get that I
have a bunch of resources on mywebsite if you need them, but I
am not your clinician. I am apsychologist, but I am not your

(00:21):
psychologist, so if you need anyspecific help, please look for
the help of a licensed mentalhealth professional. Learn all
you can learn from the podcast.Enjoy the episode. Okay, so
everyone once again, welcome. Drkensa Gunter, how are you doing
today? Dr Gunter, I'm

Unknown (00:35):
doing well. Thank you so much for the invitation to be
here, and I am looking soforward to this conversation, of
course. Thank

Dr. Raquel Martin (00:41):
you for being here in the first place. I've
been place. I've been havingmore and more of an interest in
sports lately, which is very oddfor me, because my husband's a
big sports watcher. Like Ialways state that my husband
it's not even about what sport,if there was, like a lacrosse
game on, he would watch that.He's just a big sports person.
And I actually always strugglewith sports, because I just see
everything, you know, I just seeeverything a little bit too

(01:03):
deeply. So I'd be like, you evernoticed the disparity? Like, I
would literally be talking to myhusband. I be like, where do
black coaches at? And like, howcome who makes the most money
and we're watching football. I'dbe like, the quarterback. What a
black quarter like, you know? I

Unknown (01:17):
would always just be like, Hey, look at it through
the lens that you use to see therest of the world, right? And
the reality is, sport,certainly, it's a form of
entertainment for many, it's anescape. But that doesn't change
the fact that it is, in fact, amicrocosm of society. It's not a
neutralized space where the restof the world does not exist.
It's a microcosm. And so thevery same societal ills and

(01:39):
questions and disparities thatyou see in the world at large
are also, at times, reflectedand sometimes magnified in the
world of sport. So I definitelyunderstand how both of you,
through the lenses that youhave, can see and watch a game
and enjoy or take it indifferently.

Dr. Raquel Martin (01:55):
Yeah, I'll never forget one time I was
watching the playoffs. I forgetwhich teams they were, but I
remember distinctly watching,seeing the players previously
hanging out like on the opposingteams, and it was an intense
game, too. And my husband, Iasked my husband, like, Man, I
thought they were friends. Iwonder how they're

Unknown (02:12):
right they and they will be with last buzzer sounds.
They may be friends again, butduring the game, I

Dr. Raquel Martin (02:19):
know I said, I wonder how they're feeling
about playing against each othertonight. And my husband was just
like, they're not friendstonight, not

Unknown (02:26):
friends tonight. And I was just like, Man, I

Dr. Raquel Martin (02:29):
wonder. And he's just like, I like, it isn't
I know anything? It must beexhausted being you, I just be
caring about the people. Like,I'm just like, man,

Unknown (02:37):
it's a fascinating world. Yeah, it's a fascinating
world. And I think, you know,the questions that you're asking
are legit questions, becausesport is an industry filled with
people, right, as is everything,and so we love it, and it is
thrilling to watch our favoriteplayer Excel and do phenomenal
things. And that does not changethe fact that they're people. So

(02:59):
it

Dr. Raquel Martin (02:59):
does not change the fact, yeah, yeah.
That was one of the main reasonswhy I wanted you on here,
because it's just like, I thinkthat that is forgotten, which is
very odd to me, but I thinkthat's often forgotten. He's
like, like, these are people,you know, this is still their
job. Granted, they may have ajob that you feel is way more
fun, that does give them moremoney that, but they're also
doing it under this huge lenswhere they talk about what's

(03:23):
coming up before they go towork, what happens while they're
at work, and then we have peoplewho comment on what they did
while they were at work, andthen they do it for weeks, and
then they'll ask them the mostridiculous, if somebody asked me
after a therapy session, whichactually I have had a supervisor
do this say, like, I don't knowif I would have, I don't know if
I would have said That, walk methrough your thought process of
your entire 50 minute session,piece by piece, and then I'm

(03:45):
gonna tell you what I did notlike. That's what they get after
playing the entire time. Theanalysis

Unknown (03:51):
and the scrutiny is very real and it's constant,
right? And certainly, when youget to a certain level of sport,
they know that as a part of theindustry, right? And that's a
part of what they're expecting.Expected to do, is have
conversations to analyze whatthey just did. But again, I
think there's a way we can thinkabout doing that that allows you
to get the information but alsorespects the humanity of the

(04:13):
person, right? Even let's thinkabout your supervisor. If they
ask you that question a day ortwo, even after the session,
that's going to feel different,or if they give you a moment to
pause before asking you thatquestion that feels different
than feeling like you're under amicroscope at all times. So I
mean, you know the I love theworld of sport, I love the
people who participate in sport,and have been at this

(04:35):
intersection of mental health,mental performance, sport
culture for a while now, and atthe end of the end of the day,
what we're talking about ispeople and trying to help people
live and navigate their lives inthe public eye, in their private
spaces, on their fields of play,in their relationships, right?
It's just trying to help peoplenavigate we just happen to see
their jobs in a more visiblepublic way than people see ours.

Dr. Raquel Martin (04:57):
Hey, everyone, just a reminder that
mind your mental is. Not just apodcast, it is also a amazing
community. If I do say somyself, it's phenomenal. I mean,
you get more access to me. Whatmore could you want in this
life? So if you want to join thecommunity, if you're not already
on the community, go to mysocial media. My social media is

(05:17):
the same Raquel Martin, PhD, andDM me the word community so you
can get details on joining thisamazing, flipping community. You
get more access to me. Y'alllike, I'm a delight. All right.
All right. Hope to see youthere. I love that. And you know
what? Before I even dive into myfirst official question, let me
ask what made you decide to getinto sports psychology in the

(05:40):
first place. Because, to behonest, I own, I feel like I was
one of the last people learnedabout sports psychology. I
actually didn't learn about ituntil my doctoral program, that
this was something that youcould specialize in. And at that
point, I'd already decided,like, Oh, I'm specializing in
black mental health, and that'sgoing to be what I specialize
in. But what made you decide toget into sports psychology, to
be a sports psychologist in thefirst

Unknown (06:02):
place. Yeah, so I grew up participating in sports, so
Swimming was actually my firstlove. I also played basketball.
Let me be real clear, all ofthis was youth sport, like I
didn't participate in sports. Incollege, like I did not do that.
I did intramurals, but nointercollegiate sports. But in
high school, I was injured. Ihad an ankle injury, and that
resulted in me missing a fewgames, not anything major or
significant, but it did make mestart to think about like, who

(06:24):
offers support to players whenthey're not able to be on the
court or on the field, right?That was something that really
started to that seed was plantedwhen I was dealing with my
injury and going throughphysical therapy. So when I went
to college, initially I wantedto be a physical therapist,
because my physical therapistwas phenomenal, and so I wanted
to study that field, until Itook organic chemistry. And then

(06:46):
I quickly decided, what else canI do? And I started in the area
of forensics, because when I wasin school, that was the
subspecialty that was gettingall of the kind of attention was
forensic psychology, but it wasa psychiatrist that I talked to
during one of my master'sexternships that mentioned the
field of sports psychology. Tome, she asked, Well, what do you

(07:08):
love? And I said, Well, I lovesport I love psychology. And
she's the one who said, well,there is a field called sports
psychology, and that was in 2000or so. And so my doctorate
program is, in fact, a societyin clinical psychology with a
concentration in Sport andExercise psychology. So I was
fortunate enough to go to aprogram and then complete
internship and postdoc with theopportunity to specifically

(07:31):
engage in providing services toathletes. I think

Dr. Raquel Martin (07:34):
there's so much power in specializing. I
remember going toe to toe withquite a few professors who were
thinking more of like thegeneralized space. And I was
like, I don't want to doanything generalized. And my
thing was, like, I'mspecializing in black mental
health. And they were like,there is no such thing as
specialized in black mentalhealth. And I'm like, Well, I'm
gonna do it, because our mentalhealth is linked to the way the

(07:55):
world treats us. And peopletreat black people differently
than anyone else, just like theytreat every single
intersectional identitydifferently. And I was like, I'm
I'm going into black mentalhealth. Like, this is what? This
is a thing. If it's not a thing,it's a thing today. Yeah. And I
think a lot of clinicians, itwill be helpful to ask
themselves the same thing youwere asked. Like, what to ask?
What

Unknown (08:14):
do you what do you love? What

Dr. Raquel Martin (08:16):
do you like? Yeah, what do you love? Because
there's a difference betweendepression as a result of
attachment difficulties,depression as a result of not
being able to play the sportthat you felt as though it felt
that's what's supposed to be puton this earth to do. Depression
as a result of racism in anoppressive environment, and
because of that, you need peoplewho can look into it and be
like, Okay, so as an athlete,we're going to talk about

(08:39):
depression. We're also going totalk about how it specifically
links to like your career, andhow your mindset, because there
has to be a different mindset toplay, whether you're in the
league or not, just as anathlete overall, right to your
point, like, I

Unknown (08:51):
certainly appreciate my generalist training, because
regardless of what area you'reworking in, you need to know how
to sit with people, right? Andyou need to understand the
foundations, the theories, someof that information that is
really important to being ableto sit with and provide the
service. But also to your point,and I appreciate you saying it
this way, sport psychology is aspecialty area. I think what we

(09:11):
sometimes see in the field ispeople who have previously been
in the sports space, either asan athlete, as a coach, people
who love sport and want to helpthose who are participating like
they have a passion for that,and I can appreciate that, while
also understanding it's aspecialty area, so,
understanding the subculture ofathletics, understanding some of

(09:33):
the unique experiences thatathletes have to navigate,
understanding what It is to bein this collegiate, youth,
professional, Olympic landscape,and all of the different
elements of the sport ecosystem,really is a subspecialty. And so
there's a field of professionalsout there that works at this

(09:53):
intersection. And there's acouple of different pathways
that you can get here, too,mental health, mental
performance, and certainly wecan talk about all that. That.
But I think I just, I say allthat to say it's definitely a
subspecialty area, because it'sa unique subculture that they
are living in and trying tothrive in.

Dr. Raquel Martin (10:09):
And at any subspecialty, you have specific
things that are key, coreconcepts that you really need to
grasp before you delve into thisrealm in the first place.
Absolutely, I really like tohighlight the aspect of it being
the subspecialty as well. Ithink sometimes people get
confused with specialties in alot of realms. I remember one
time mentioning the fact that Iincorporate art and like books
at times into the work that Ido. And someone was like, oh,

(10:32):
okay, so you're a psychologistand you're art therapist and
you're a Biblio therapist. Isaid, No, right? Because our
therapists have somespecialization, and they have
all this biblical therapistshave the ONS, but I said I
incorporated in there. Butthere's a whole different like,
concept of like, that's theirspecialization. So it's just
like, you know, we incorporatingthings is great. Like, you know,

(10:53):
if I'm working with someonewho's actually like, Oh, it's
great, if you feel as though Ican help you in this realm. And
I would be remiss if I didn'tstate Sure, but there are also
leg there are legit sportspsychologists who may be able to
serve you well. So like, I lovethat you, but I just want to
specify as well. I also know ofanother specialty. So let me
know if you feel as though youknow, like we've reached our
limit. So I just alwaysappreciate people identifying

(11:15):
like, yeah, there's, there's areason for these specialties.
Yeah, what are some uniquemental health challenges that
you feel as though are faced bynot even solely within
professional sport or in theleague overall, but by athletes.
Yeah,

Unknown (11:27):
so I'll start with some of the unique elements of the
subculture, and then that mightlead me to some of the
challenges that they face,right? So thinking about the
world of athletics, athleticidentity is one of the biggest
things that we think about.Right? Usually, when people are
participating in sport, theystart at a very young age. I'm
talking about 567, years old,right? And their identity who
they are as a person, can startto be very intertwined with the

(11:50):
sport that they are good at andthe sport that they're
participating in, right? And notjust for themselves. And well,
let me back up. What I mean bythat is, they can start to see
their value, their worth, theirsense of who they are is
connected to their performance.So if they perform well, they
feel like they're a good person.If they don't perform well, they
feel like they're a bad person,right? That can really start to

(12:11):
become a very strong associationthat impacts how they move, how
they see the world. It can alsoimpact how other people see
them, right? Because a youngathlete's identity and even an
older athlete's identity canalso become the family's
identity, right? If the familyis sacrificing in order for this
person to participate in sport,that connection between the

(12:31):
sport, the performance, and theidentity is something that is
somewhat unique, and it'sbecause it starts so young, it
can start so young, and it canalso be so public, right? So
think about, we just finishedMarch Madness. Think about all
of these young athletes, right,who are playing on the grandest
of stages, right? And not onlyis their athlete potentially

(12:53):
connected, family's athlete maybe connected, but think about
all the fans whose athletes areconnected to their favorite
team, right? So it's theathletic identity. It's
everything's happening on apublic stage. It's the pressure
to compete on a consistentlyhigh level at all times. It's
almost as if you don't have thespace to grow and develop in the
way that people who are notnecessarily in the public eye

(13:15):
do. And as we talked aboutearlier, sport is a microcosm so
issues around any of the isms,racism, sexism, heterosexism,
any types of discrimination,inequity that we may see in
other places we may also seemanifested in sport, in addition
to thinking about differentelite levels, the financial

(13:36):
acts, the financial resourcesthat you may have access to that
you may not have the knowledgeto know how to manage, right?
And thinking about how youmanage those how that shifts
relationships. It's a lot ofdifferent factors that you may
see at different stages of anathlete's career, right? And
that's just the world that theyare living in, right, the

(13:56):
subculture and the space inwhich they're occupying. And so
some of the things that wesometimes see are relationship
challenges, right? Trying tohelp them have a better
relationship with themselves, arelationship with those around
them, whether those are in thesport or we're talking about
family and friends, certainly,when we think about pro sports,
navigating and have navigatingfinances and developing
financial literacy so that theycan be good stewards of the

(14:19):
resources that they have accessto really important but we also
may see adjustment disorders oradjustment issues may not be to
the diagnosable disorder level,but there are often many
adjustments that athletes haveto navigate in their career,
whether it's going from one teamto another, whether it's going
from being injured to return tocompetition, whether it's going
from one level to another,there's constant change that's

(14:42):
happening that they have toadjust to. And so that's one of
the other things that I think wesee. And you also may see some
anxiety symptoms, somedepressive symptoms. Certainly,
those are common as well. Onething that I think people
sometimes miss is is loneliness.And I don't say loneliness,
excuse me, from. Standpoint ofnobody being around, I say

(15:03):
loneliness from the standpointof feeling as though somebody
understands your experience,right? Because it can be a very
unique experience that you'vehad as an athlete, and it can be
hard for those who've not walkedthat same path to truly
understand what that experiencemay feel like to you, whether
it's managing success or justmanaging the life that comes

(15:25):
with being an elite levelathlete, the sacrifice of
training, the things that youhave to miss in order to pursue
your craft. Like there'ssometimes a loneliness that goes
along with that, that I thinkpeople can miss, because we
often tend to think, if someoneis successful, if they're
excellent if they're doing wellin their craft. Unfortunately,
for some, sometimes, what thatresults in us doing is

(15:46):
dehumanizing them, right, andtreating them as if they're
superhuman, as opposed torecognizing that excellence is
coming at a cost,

Dr. Raquel Martin (15:54):
exactly, and we're dehumanizing them where
that comes with the aspect ofdepriving them of the qualities
of emotional expression, like,oh, what I mean, you're making
all this money. What the flip Doyou have complain about? Right?
Like, oh, well, you know, youjust switch team, but at least
you get to play on a team. Oh,well, you know, this is your
job. Fans should be able to saywhatever the heck they want to
say, like you're at work. Like,this is what you get paid all

(16:16):
this money to do, paid to see ateam. I should be able to do
whatever I want. And itdefinitely makes me think in
this realm of people notunderstanding that these are
people, the intro, theintricacies within the
transition in media, and howthat has shaped and formed.
Everything I remember when Iused to watch and I actually
watch more games now, but watchgames with my husband, and I

(16:36):
would think like when they afterthe game and they asked those
questions. I used to be like,Man, I would lose it if, after I
had just done this, I had justrecently watched, I forget who
it was, but they mentioned,like, what could you have done
better? Or, like, I don't knowif it was step curvious. I want
to guard this person better. Andit was two people, and they were

(16:57):
like, I got this one. He waslike, we tried, right? You think
we came out here and you thinkwe didn't try, right? They did a
better job, right? Like, and Iwas just sitting here, and I was
just like, I like, slow clap,because I'm just like, this is
very stressful. It's a high paidstress environment, like, you
have people watching you. You'vebeen training every single
second of day. Let's not thinkabout like your body or your

(17:18):
mental health and your wellbeing, and maybe a new area,
maybe a different team. Youcan't go anywhere without being
recognized. You don't really getto be yourself. You still have
family, you still have all theintricacies of life. You know
you still have to figure out,like you said, mentioned,
financial literacy and buildinga family and your whole identity
outside of this realm. And then,after playing your behind off,

Unknown (17:39):
people ask you these questions, and I'm
like, and so I think the otherthing to acknowledge there right
is the incredible amount ofresilience and poise and
strength that they also haveright because they know those
questions are coming right, andthey are in positions where on
the like immediately on theheels of A performance that they

(18:01):
may not feel their best about.

Dr. Raquel Martin (18:04):
I'm like, yo, so that

Unknown (18:07):
too is a part of the isn't it's a part of the
expected culture, right, thatyou will play and then be able
to talk about it, right? Butagain, I think certainly there
that demonstrates theirhumanity, but it also
demonstrates the strength andthe fortitude, really, that
athletes have to kind ofdevelop. And we're talking to
you the examples you mentionedwere professional athletes. This

(18:27):
happens at the collegiate leveltoo, right? And you're thinking
about younger people who have adifferent level of coping
strategies to manage that. Andso when you think about because
I've often had people sometimesask me, like, why do they even
need support? Why do athleteseven need resources? And for the
all of the reasons that we'retalking about, first and
foremost being because they'repeople and life can be

(18:51):
challenging, right? It'soffering support and resources
to help them navigate therealities of the world that they
are living in a way that allowsthem to be healthy and well and
whole and successful. Iappreciate

Dr. Raquel Martin (19:05):
the fact that there is, you know, a specialty
and a subspecialty when it comesto sports psychology in the
first place. How do you but Ialso acknowledge the fact that,
like, just because we havesubspecialties doesn't mean that
everyone is going to recognizeit as something that's
important, right? However,that's not what's happening
currently. Like there's been acultural shift within the NBA,
in sports in general, towardsacknowledging and discussing

(19:28):
mental health and the importanceof it. How do you perceive that
shift happening going forward?Like any initiatives that you
think are going to be helpful,or, yeah, that are going to be
incorporated absolutely

Unknown (19:40):
so I give a tremendous amount of credit to the athletes
for the cultural shift thatwe're seeing, because I think a
lot of the changes inconversation, a lot of the
implementation of programs andresources, has been a direct
result of athletes sharing theirstories and athletes publicly
saying, Yes, I am a performer,but please. Don't misunderstand,

(20:01):
I'm a person first. And so theyare demanding for us to not only
see their humanity and see andrespect their personhood, but
they're demanding for us tooffer services to support that
as well. And so specificallywithin the NBA, we have a
program called Mind health. Iserve as the director of that
program, and it is our mentalhealth wellness and performance
program. It's been in effectsince it's a big program, it's

Dr. Raquel Martin (20:23):
a big program. Doctor, alright, like,
Okay,

Unknown (20:25):
you I'm so sorry. I'm

Dr. Raquel Martin (20:26):
sorry. I don't even like that segue,
y'all, I'm just okay. You know,

Unknown (20:31):
we have a program called mine. It's a big program,

Dr. Raquel Martin (20:35):
and you just happen to be, you're the
director of the program. Doctor,I like that. Segway, like. So
I'm gonna, actually, I'm gonna,I'm gonna lead in more because,
actually a sound effect. So,because Absolutely not. Oh my
gosh. Okay, so once again, wehave this amazing you have this
amazing program, mind health,and you are also the, I'm just

(20:56):
gonna lead it in. You're thedirector of that program, that
substantial program that theprofessional sports
organizations are recognizingthat this is important. I went
to the website, even theresources alone on the website
are amazing, and you're thedirector of that program. Okay,

Unknown (21:14):
yes, thank you. I appreciate that, and I also want
to recognize that the NBAcertainly has that program, and
that there are other leagues aswell, and I'll speak to that in
a moment. But for the MBAsprogram, it's been in effect
since 2018 and our overallvision is to humanize mental
health, to humanize mentalhealth, and to position it as an

(21:34):
essential element of excellence,wellness and performance, both
on and off the court. Right? Wehave three guiding principles
that are geared towardhumanizing mental health,
elevating performance andhonoring lived experience. So in
the foundation of the work thatwe do, it really is designed to
understand these are people. Wewant to support the person.
They're athletes. We understandthis is a competitive
environment, so we want tosupport the athlete through

(21:56):
performance strategies, but alsowe want to honor the lived
experience of the individualsthat are in our community. And
so I think again, when I saythat the initiative that we have
in place is a direct result oflistening to athletes. DeMar
DeRozan in 2018 posted a tweetthat mentioned the word
depression. And if you haven'twatched his series dinners with

(22:18):
Demar, that's currently on hisYouTube channel, I would say,
check it out, because it isphenomenal, and it just
represents the continuation ofhis advocacy in his space, and
his continuing, not only toshare his story, but to invite
some of his friends and peersinto the conversation as well.
And it really is phenomenal, buthe was one of the first within
the NBA who talked openly aboutfeeling depression, and then

(22:42):
Kevin Love followed sharing hisstory in the player's Tribune.
I'll go back before both ofthem, though, to shamequa
holzclaw from the WNBA, whopublicly talks about her
experience with managing andnavigating mental health as
well. And so the change thatwe're seeing is because we're
trying to listen. We're tryingto listen to what athletes say
are saying, and what they'resaying they want. And there's a

(23:03):
host of athletes that have usedtheir voices to talk about their
journeys, including their mentalhealth journey, since those
three that I just named, andathletes are doing that in a
myriad of sports beyondbasketball as well. But what we
try to do with mind health isthree things, we try to provide
guidance to the teams in termsof what type of support and
resource you should haveavailable at the team level. In

(23:24):
this area of mental health andperformance, we try to provide
educational resources, clinicalresources, and we are trying to
shift the culture. So that's abig piece of what we're trying
to do. And I would liken this tophysical health resources. If
you go to any sport teamanywhere they have a full sports
medicine staff that consists ofteam doctors, athletic trainers,

(23:46):
strength and conditioningcoaches, nutritionists, massage
therapists, podiatrists, youname it. As it relates to
physical health, and there'susually a professional there to
provide that service as needed.The same should be true on the
mental health side, right? Ifyou have a performance staff, a
health and performance staffthat does not include

(24:06):
professionals who are trained towork in the area of mental
health and performance, youdon't have a complete health and
performance staff. And so whenwe talk about mind health, the
professionals that are in ournetwork include psychiatrists,
licensed mental health providersand also mental performance
consultants who focus on themental skills piece. And we have
that program within the MBA. ButI also have to shout out my

(24:28):
colleagues in the NFL who alsohave Services, Dr Nyaka nalamsi,
Dr Amber Cargill on the leadside and the PA side. MLB has
resources, a host of NCAAinstitutions have resources,
mental health resources embeddedwithin athletics for the sole

(24:48):
purpose of trying to supportathletes. And so the shift is
very real. There's, of course,always more that we can do, and
always more work that needs tobe done. But I would say, in the
last. Several years, therecertainly has been a concerted
effort to increase the resourcesthat are available in very real
and tangible ways.

Dr. Raquel Martin (25:10):
I love that. And Dr Cargill is actually going
to be on the show as well. It'slike, Yes, this is awesome. I'll
be honest, when I was thinking,when I knew I wanted to focus in
on my interest has been peakingmore about the way media has
been portraying things, and thenjust seeing I was just like,
Man, this is straight upadultification, dehumanization
on every single realm, like I'mwatching all these sports, and
then I was looking forindividuals to interview. I was

(25:32):
so surprised that y'all looklike me, I'm not gonna lie. I
was like, Oh my God. I'm evenmore excited, like I was gonna
do this anyway, but I'm evenmore excited, because you can't
help but notice the demographicsof individuals who are playing
sports. And when I see that, Ialso want to see that
representation in the in notonly with, like the coaches, but

(25:54):
also in their support, right?Like, I want to see that
representation in their support.Because, you know, I say this as
a psychologist, and you get thisas a psychologist, like, I'm not
saying that I'm going tounderstand everything that you
have gone through as a blackperson just because I happen to
be a black person, sure. And Iwill also state that there are
certain things that just youonly get by walking in this

(26:15):
skin, right? So it very muchisn't like, oh, let's just
assume, because they're a blackclinician, they know everything
about blackness? No. And Iactually tell people like, you
need to ask, even if it's ablackness, you need to ask the
same questions you would askanyone that comes to help you.
Because we're not saying thatthere's representation within
the within individuals ofAfrican descent as it is as a
whole. One of the things thatdehumanizes us is that

(26:36):
monolithic messaging that likewe're fitting ourselves into a
box that really was just a toolto, you know, substantiate
violence. But like, there's somany different aspects of
spaces. There are places thataffirm me as a black person,
maybe as a black woman, maybe asa black mother, maybe as a black
millennial, those places aren'tall the same. I may still be
missing things in those realms

Unknown (26:57):
100% and to the point of, to your point, like, we're
not the same, we're not amonolith. And there is also
something that comes with acultural similarity that can be
really helpful when thinkingabout how to provide support and
how to provide help, right? Likethere can be those intangibles
that can come up. There can be ashared understanding, there can

(27:17):
be some shared values, there canbe some shared experiences that
come from that culturalsimilarity. And so I'm with you.
It's not a matter of only blacktherapists can work with black
people, but there is a very realpower and a very real it's an
intangible element that can comefrom having that representation

(27:39):
and having that similarity. AndI think particularly as you
mentioned, when you think aboutthe people who are providing the
care services, that becomesreally important. When I entered
the field of sports psychology,there was research all around
that was suggesting that it wasdominated by white men, right?
Like those were the individualswho were in the field and who
were the most prominent in thefield over the last few decades,

(28:01):
that is beginning to shift. Wedo have more practitioners who
represent the range of diversitythat is reflected in sport,
right, as it relates to racialand ethnic diversity, but also
if we think about gender, if wethink about religion, right?
Because all of those elements ofidentity intersect in the world
of sport, right? And havingpeople, it's just a powerful

(28:22):
thing to look up and seesomebody who looks like you,
right. And it's a reallypowerful thing to look up and
see that the doctor or theperson who is going to help you
looks like you, right, becausethere's a very real cultural
mistrust that can exist as well,like, you know, and so, so I
appreciate that fact, and I hearthat on a regular basis from

(28:43):
athletes that I've had anopportunity to work with, but
also hear from students that areinterested in the field, right?
The idea that I look up and Isee somebody who looks like me,
somebody who sharescharacteristics that allow me to
see myself reflected in thespaces that they occupy like
that's a huge thing, and so soagain, that honoring lived

(29:04):
experience piece of what we tryto do in mind health, that piece
is really all aboutacknowledging as much as there
is a collective experiencethat's happening, there's also
individual experience, and everyindividual has a cultural
reality and a cultural identitythat we need to be mindful of
right from our internationalathletes to however they

(29:26):
identify right, we just need tobe mindful of that and how their
identities impact theirexperience, and how that should
also inform how we offer supportand interventions.

Dr. Raquel Martin (29:37):
Yeah, because even with I was looking at the
Association of applied sportspsychology, that resource, and
on the very front page, it'smen, like, I think they're
playing soccer. And I was justlike, yeah. I was like, it's, I
feel like, that's incrediblyhelpful. I was waiting to see if
it like, you know how somepictures just, like, move so you
can, like, see the transition.And I was just like, All right,

(29:59):
okay.

Unknown (30:00):
So what I will say is this, the transition doesn't
necessarily happen on the firstpage. There's a scroll. But what
I will say, and the only reasonI can say this, is because I've
been intimately connected tothat, that organization. We have
made conscious efforts todiversify the pictures, right?
There was a time when there wasa lack of there was a true
homogenous feel to the picturesthat you saw, right? And so I

(30:23):
remember the conversations of,can we add some more diversity,
whether it's disability status,gender, type of sport,
definitely, race and ethnicity.And so that's where I say, there
have. There are certainlyefforts being made, and there is
always more work to do,especially in the area of
diversity, equity and inclusion.I mean, it's very interesting to

(30:48):
be having this conversation inthe cultural landscape that we
exist in right now. But youknow, you can't get around it.
And I think when people say orhear the term diversity, they
think of it as just an automaticnegative thing. They hear the
term inclusion, and theyautomatically think exclusion.
And it's fascinating, becausesport is one of the places where
we see the power of diversitytruly come to light. Right? You

(31:10):
have people from all overeverywhere who come on a team
with a shared purpose and acommon goal to achieve success
and excellence. Also, justthinking about sport in general,
you don't have a sport filledwith people who play the same
position, right? Like it is atrue example, yes, like, it's a
true example of the penaltiesspeak different languages,

Dr. Raquel Martin (31:32):
and

Unknown (31:32):
so you just can't, you can't get around acknowledging
the diversity of people in sportoutside of sport everywhere. And
that should also be reflected inthe diversity of the
practitioners and the providersthat are offering support in
this

Dr. Raquel Martin (31:46):
space. And I think people don't really when
they hear diversity, they alwaysthink solely of like ethnicity
or race, and it's not that like,you know, thankfully, I think
we're hopefully getting to aplace where people understand
that. But when you think ofthat, you should think about
like age and gender, and youshould also think about, like,
even first language spoken andsexual orientation and things
like that. Like, I think peoplefeel as though it's just like,

(32:09):
oh, well, it has to do withblack people. I'm like, that's
not the

Unknown (32:12):
case. You know, we're not the, we're

Dr. Raquel Martin (32:13):
not the there's so many other
ethnicities and genders and age.And I think when people even
think about representation, Ialways encourage you, like,
well, delve a little bit deeper,because I'll never I was at we
were in our cultural competenceclass in grad school, and one of
my colleagues, who is apsychologist now, he was like,
Well, I never know what to sayin these classes. It seems like
a European American guy. Andhe's like, I don't have any

(32:34):
culture. And I said, Of course,I'm just always very outspoken.
I said, that is, What an oddstatement to say. And everyone's
just like, oh God, Raquel, I waslike, I just think it's very I
said, it's very limiting to justlimit it, to to look at one
realm. I said, everybody has anaspect of of culture. I said,
you're thinking in one way. AndI said, and the professor just

(32:55):
looking at me, and I said, Iencourage you. And mind you, I'm
still a student. I encourage

Unknown (32:59):
you to look beyond that, and even like, where are
you from? And plus, he was fromNew Orleans. I was like you, and
you really think that you don'thave a culture just because
you're a European American manlike you. That's what you're
limiting yourself. Well, yeah,and it's interesting the way in
which people have internalizedwhat cultural identity means,
and whether or not they feellike that includes them or not,

(33:19):
right? And I think about aswe're continuing to think about
athletes, I think about athleticidentity as an identity, right?
The identity of an athlete isyet another identity that
intersects with all the otheridentities that we're talking
about. And I know we're talkingabout services and resources at
the professional level, but youhave sports psychologists,

(33:40):
again, at collegiate space,there is a need for sports
psychologists to be in youthsport, to work with coaches, to
work with parents, to work withinternational athletes. Like the
realm of sports psychology isnot just relegated to
professional sports orcollegiate sports, but the realm
of sports psychology and thethings that we do within that
field have application in theworld of sport and beyond,

(34:03):
because we also haveprofessionals that work in other
performance domains as well,thinking about performing
artists and corporate spaces andmilitary and tactical. Because
the reality is, understandingwho people are is important
regardless of where they are,and that's what we're trying to
do, is understand who they are,offer them support as it relates
to their mental health, offerthem skills and strategies as it

(34:26):
relates to their mentalperformance area, and, again,
just to help them thrive. Butall of this, none of this,
exists outside of context, andall of this context matters.

Dr. Raquel Martin (34:37):
Yeah, it's all about, it sounds like it's
all about, like the aspect ofcustomized care and
understanding that there's goingto be a uniqueness, like your
mental health is a fingerprint,right? And one person's well
being and mindset will impactthe way that they see the world.
And the same way you'rementioning the fact that it's
not solely about professionalsports and that aspect of it,
because before you get to theprofessional sport level, you

(34:57):
said people are playing as youngas 500 because. You know, you
were a child playing thosesports. You were a team. You
were and going through what someof the most tumultuous times
like, you know, for well being,and like your brain, your
prefrontal cortex, stopsdeveloping at 25 and actually
they're finding more researchthat for young men, it's
actually later. It might be like27 and 28 and that's the

(35:18):
decision making part of yourbrain, right? You're making all
of these huge decisions,

Unknown (35:22):
let's go all let's go all the way back, right? So we
know that all life, 50% of alllifetime mental illness, shows
itself by the age of 14, right?And so if we are not talking
about and teaching our kids andour and their parents and the
communities that they're in, ifwe're not talking about
emotional regulation, increasedself awareness, coping

(35:45):
strategies for managingfrustration. And these are some
of the things that sportspsychologists do in the youth
space, right, teaching what canbe considered life skills, self
awareness skills, emotionalregulation skills, to help kids
learn how to manage on the courtand off the court, right? These
same skills can be applied whenyou get to the later stages of

(36:06):
your sport career, but it reallyis a fascinating thing, because
it's they're two different lanesof sport, and in the field of
sports psychology, right? Youhave the intersection of mental
health and sport, right? Soactually, working with somebody
around mental health issues,whether they have a diagnosable
condition or not, it's thetraditional working with them
around personal concerns, mentalhealth related concerns. But

(36:27):
there's also that mental skillsdevelopment piece that I keep
talking about because there areprofessionals that are purely
trained in that area as wellmental performance consultants
who provide some of thoseessential skills and teach
skills, goal setting, self talk,motivation, mindfulness
training, energy management,communication, team cohesion,
for athletes and for coaches,that helps to create a healthier

(36:50):
system. Because that's reallythe thing, right? If we think
about why we have theseprograms, and I said earlier,
because we're listening toathletes, Why else do we have
these programs? Because athleteswant to be successful? What's
another reason why we might havethe programs because they want
to be in healthy systems. And wecan talk about creating healthy
people all day long, but we alsoneed to talk about having
healthy environments and healthysystems, because mental health,

(37:16):
more and more as I'm in thisspace, mental health, mental
wellness, the capacity toperform is really a function of
the intersection betweenindividual and the environments
that they're in. And so wereally have to think about a
part of what we try to do in themind health program, as well as
provide education about what itmeans to have a healthy
environment and what it means tohave integrated care in that

(37:39):
environment.

Dr. Raquel Martin (37:41):
Yeah, it sounds like the one of the
biggest things is the aspect ofintegration, because you
mentioned core elements andconcepts, and it also provides
autonomy in that realm too,because you're providing
education, but then to also findways to help themselves,
absolutely coping skills andunderstanding. I think one of
the biggest things thatpsychologists provide, in
addition to psycho education, islike, we work with you on self

(38:03):
monitoring, because it's easy toget to attend on the anger scale
when you wake up every singleday at an eight. But if you
don't know your body and youdon't know your mind, how are
you able to acknowledge the factthat you've been in at eight for
weeks now? And like, oh, thatactually, I started being upset.
That aligns more with thisrecent move. And like you, if
you don't know that, you won'tbe able to monitor it and help
yourself out in the first place.I also feel like we've been

(38:24):
talking a bunch about, like,adultification and
dehumanization as well,especially in this mindset, I've
been watching more TV than Icare to lately, and it's just
because I've just been watchingpeople say things and I'm like,
oh my goodness, it's a lot beingsaid. It's a lot it's a lot
being said. What kind of advicewould you give to athletes,
whether they're young or older,whether they're in professional

(38:45):
sports, just athletes overall,who may be experiencing or
witnessing dehumanization oradultification in their realm,
in their sports careers.

Unknown (38:56):
You know, it's as you bring up that topic. I can't
help but to think about a recentvideo that I'm sure many of your
viewers have seen in regards toLSU basketball star Angel Reese,
and which one are you talkingabout, right? So, right. So I'm
speaking more about thesituation broadly in terms of a
question that she was asked in apress conference, an answer that
she gave, an emotional reactionthat she displayed, and then the

(39:19):
reactions that have beendirected toward her as a result
of her responding to thatquestion, and just the way in
which it feels like compassionand grace and support were just
not initially extended to her inmany of the comments that were
shared. And you know, justthinking about the idea of her

(39:42):
as a young black female in thepublic eye, and as you talk
about the dehumanization, as youtalk about adultification, and I
think about some of the specificthings that she has talked about
experiencing in her just lastyear. And she's not the only
one. I think there have beenother examples here in the last
few days of Kali. Collegiateathletes who have received mail,
email or snail mail that havejust been horrific and filled

(40:08):
with racism and filled withvitriolic statements. Think DJ
burns from North Carolina Statewas another current collegiate
athlete who shared a letter thatwas sent to him, and it was just
horrific to think that someonewould feel emboldened enough to
send the type of letter that wassent to him. And so your

(40:31):
question is, what would I say tosomeone who is experiencing that
kind of, let me just call itwhat it is, abuse and
harassment, right? That kind ofeither racism or sexism or
discrimination that's beingdirected towards them. I don't
know if I have a standard answerfor what I would say. What I
hope for that person is thatthey have a team of support

(40:55):
around them, so that they havesomeone to help them in
navigating this very ugly aspectof the world that they are being
exposed to. I hope that theyhave a support system that
reminds them of who they are,independent of their sport. I
hope that they have people whocan offer them comfort and offer

(41:18):
them compassion and remind themof who they are, because words
can hurt and be very painful,and so I hope they have people
around them that help them makesense of that, to not
internalize that, and to supportthem as they continue to try to
live and perform. Because justbecause you experienced that

(41:38):
doesn't mean your life stops oryou shut down, you still have to
show up

Dr. Raquel Martin (41:42):
and like work. So I have the hardest
jobs,

Unknown (41:45):
I hope they have people around them. And I mean, I think
if I hope they have space toexpress what it is that they're
feeling, and people who willsupport them in the reality of
where they are and also helpthem to move through it, right?
I hope they have somebody aroundthem that's helping them to
develop the skills to separate,to separate and not and learn
not to internalize that justbecause the world says something

(42:07):
that gives you something doesn'tmean you have to receive it,
right? I hope they have thatavailable to them, and I also
hope they have coaches and ateam that is supportive, right?
I hope they have people callingout the wrongness of some of the
commentary that's been directedtheir way, because those types

(42:31):
of experiences can be incrediblydamaging, and in the absence of
anybody to help you make senseof what that is. Because again,
I know they're young adults. Iknow they're young adults, but
they are young people, right?And in the absence of having
that, it can be really hard tomake sense of strangers and
massive feelings of beingdehumanized on a regular basis.

(42:53):
So I hope they have a supportsystem around them that's
helping them in managing that,and I hope they also have
somebody who's telling them thattaking a social media fast is
okay, that you don't have to beexposed to everything, you don't
have to read everything, youdon't have to look at
everything, you don't have torespond to everything, and
sometimes the best thing is justnot to be involved at all, like
not to even participate. And Iknow that's hard for our young

(43:17):
people. These are our digitalnatives, who know they don't
know a world without the socialmedia, and I get it and I
understand it, but I do hopethey also give them time, give
themselves time to detach fromthe the world that is feeding
them or giving them thosemessages. I hope they have have
an opportunity to detach and toengage in places and spaces

(43:39):
where they are loved andwelcomed and valued, and they
don't have to question that.Yeah,

Dr. Raquel Martin (43:43):
I really appreciate what you said about
just because someone tries togive you something doesn't mean
you need to really have toreceive that. The first thing
that popped in my mind was like,Return to Sender. No interest.
Thank you. You don't have totake that. So we see it from the
player's perspective, but on theother end, we know that media
has a big role in this. How doyou feel like the media can play
a more positive role inportraying athletes in a way

(44:05):
that respects their humanity andavoids this whole aspect of
adultification anddehumanization? What would be
some key things you would wantmedia, big players, little
players, like people areinterviewing. What can they do
better?

Unknown (44:16):
Certainly, I'm not a journalist. I've never been in
that space of needing to get thestory, or trying to get the
story, or, you know, incompetition with others to get
the best story right, like, andso I don't know that world
intimately, but what I do knowis, I think for media, and I
think I've seen some do thisreally well, like, it's a

(44:36):
relationship that you have withthe players, like the media
personalities, who I see get thebest responses, the best
stories, it's because theyeither have a relationship with
the person or they have a levelof respect that seems to come
through even in how they ask thequestions, what questions they
ask, what follow ups they ask,the tone that they use like it

(44:59):
just seems. To be this constantreminder that this is a person
I'm talking to. This is not astory I'm getting. This is a
person I'm talking to, right?And I think that's two very
different things, right? If I'mtrying to get the story to have
a headline that can lead to thesame kind of dehumanization of,
well, you're just an athletewho's intended to get points,
right? What I see is those whoare this is a person that I'm

(45:22):
talking to, and what I'm tryingto do is hear this person's
story and hear from this person,not just confirm what I believe
about this person. So I wouldsay I think media personalities
who one either they have arelationship, so they've taken
time to develop a relationship,they treat the interview like
it's a conversation betweenfolks who have a relationship.

(45:44):
They have respect in the waythey show up to the moment,
right tone questions, how theyask all that kind of stuff. But
also they're curious. They'renot entering the space just to
confirm something. They'reentering the space curious to
hear from the athlete, and inthat what they're looking for
might be confirmed, but they'realso curious to hear beyond what

(46:06):
they expect, anticipate or areassuming. And I think that
curiosity sometimes leaves roomtoo for more of an engagement
and more of an interaction. Ialso think sometimes just
knowing now is not the timelike, I'm just not, I'm just not
like now just might not be thetime for me to ask you that, or
now might be the time for me tooffer you something rather than
to ask you a question. I've seenmedia professionals do that when

(46:29):
they know an athlete might bestruggling or having a hard
moment, and they will justacknowledge and express
gratitude for what that athlete,that person, has contributed to
the game, to the moment. And soI think there's a combination of
things that folks can do, but Ithink at its core, it's
remembering that there arepeople, right? And I and, you

(46:49):
know, I often tell people like,put yourself in their shoes.
Think about how you would wantsomebody to approach you in this
moment and try to extend some ofthat grace and kindness to them.

Dr. Raquel Martin (46:59):
Yeah, when I'm working with my patients,
when we're working throughskills, when I'm teaching my
students, or I'm working withfuture clinicians, I'm like, you
know, when we think about thefirst step is always to begin
with empathy, you know, like andif you're doing self talk, the
first thing is to start withempathy for yourself. I remember
seeing this clip where LeBronwas being asked some questions,
and before he went to thequestion, he told the

(47:21):
journalist, he said, I'm sohappy to see you back, man, see
and the captain was like, theguy, he had just finished
chemotherapy. He just noticedthat he wasn't there, yeah. So
he was just like, before I evenget to this, I'm so happy to see
you.

Unknown (47:31):
That's what I mean by relationship, right? And when I
say relationship, they have tobe deep, like, Y'all don't have
to be best friends, but, yeah,you know them. They know you,
and there's a mutual respect andan understanding of what this
is. You have a job to do. I havea job to do, but we can create
an environment where we can bothdo it and we don't, and neither
of us has to have our dignity,our humanity erased because of

(47:54):
it. Right? We can both do ourjobs, and it can be a cool
environment. Yeah,

Dr. Raquel Martin (48:00):
it doesn't mean you have to answer like,
ask, like, oh, what's yourfavorite color? You can you can,
like, no one's saying you can'tdo your job, you know this, and
it gives people a sense, or theymay be able to ask themselves
some hard questions, like, oh,okay, I noticed that. I might
have to go back to the tape onthat, you know. But you can also
do that where you respect theirdignity. Well, Dr Gunter, thank

(48:21):
you so much for coming on theshow. Tell everyone where they
can find you. You're not usingInstagram like that, right?

Unknown (48:27):
No, not a lot. No, I have to have some spaces that
are just for me

Dr. Raquel Martin (48:33):
too. Yeah, we all you talked about finding
your identity outside of sports,and I think that's an amazing
line I talk all the time about,I don't share, I don't nobody,
nobody even knows what myhusband or kids look like,
right?

Unknown (48:46):
And you never will, right? So, I mean, you know, and
I think that's real, like, thereare some things that are not for
public consumption, right? I

Dr. Raquel Martin (48:53):
like even something sacred, yeah, you're
allowed to do that, and you canprotect that, but

Unknown (48:57):
where you can find me is on Twitter, I'm sorry on X,
formerly known as Dr Kenza, soD, R, k, e, n, S, A, you can
also find me on LinkedIn. Justtype in my name, it should pop
up. But I just want to say thankyou. Thank you for your presence

(49:18):
in all the spaces and for theconversations you're having and
for the information and thewisdom that you're sharing, it
truly is needed. It's seen youare appreciated. So I just want
to say that to you, and thankyou for the invitation to be
here and for the conversation. Ireally do

Dr. Raquel Martin (49:34):
appreciate it, absolutely. I appreciate it,
and I think I have a lot ofclinicians who listen to the
show, and you may have, youmight, you may have just some
passion for a new sub specialty.For a lot of future clinicians,

Unknown (49:45):
there are pathways to get there, definitely. So you
have questions, I'm happy toanswer.

Dr. Raquel Martin (49:50):
Thank you. So everyone, once again, that is Dr
Kenza Gunter, and you will seeall of her information in the
show notes as well as alwaysremember to have. Have a
fantastic day, evening, night,all that, and be kind to
yourself, and I'll see youlater. You can always find me on
the interwebs, because I'm onthere far too much, guys. So
have a good one. Bye.